0:00

That is a lucid, intelligent,

0:02

well-thought-out objection. Thank

0:04

you, Your Honor. Overruled. Overruled. Hey,

0:08

everyone. This is Leon

0:10

from Fiasco and Prologue

0:12

Projects. On this episode

0:14

of 5 to 4, Peter, Rhiannon,

0:16

and Michael are talking to Rina

0:18

Workman and Janan Jihadi. Rina

0:21

is a 30-year law student at NYU Law,

0:24

and Janan is a recent graduate of Georgetown

0:26

Law. Both thought they had

0:28

their first law jobs all lined up. But

0:31

when their messages of support for the cause

0:33

of Palestinian liberation made them targets on social

0:35

media, their firms dropped them. This

0:37

is a conversation about what speech is really

0:40

free and what corporate law firms are

0:42

actually looking for when they say they want diverse

0:44

teams. This is 5

0:46

to 4, a podcast about how much the

0:48

Supreme Court and big law

0:50

suck. Welcome

0:55

to 5 to 4, where we dissect

0:57

and analyze the Supreme Court cases that

0:59

have rescinded our civil rights like a

1:02

law firm rescinding a Palestinian activist job

1:04

offer. Wow. I'm Peter. I'm

1:06

here with Rhiannon. Hey. And

1:09

Michael. Hi, everybody. Keeping it

1:11

topical today. That's right. Yeah.

1:13

Special episode. Yeah. We are

1:15

conducting an interview with

1:17

a couple of folks, Rhina Workman

1:20

and Janan Shahadi, who

1:22

had a somewhat similar experience,

1:25

both of them going into big law

1:27

jobs and having those offers, those jobs

1:29

taken away from them for what they

1:31

said. We thought it would be sort

1:33

of interesting to talk to them about

1:35

their experience, maybe talk about

1:37

what like, I don't know, big

1:39

law diversity efforts actually

1:42

mean, given stuff like this, right?

1:44

Yeah. It's such a crazy time right

1:47

now with the debate on free speech,

1:49

whether it's on campus, in the workplace,

1:52

on social media. What we

1:54

are seeing is really unprecedented

1:56

repression of pro-Palestine

1:59

expression. right? Expression

2:01

of Palestinian solidarity. And

2:04

these two, Reena and Janan, have, you know,

2:06

suffered some of the most serious

2:08

consequences. Janan, the day before she

2:11

was supposed to start work at

2:14

a big law firm, Foley and

2:16

Gardner, she was fired. Reena is

2:18

a third year law

2:20

student. Reena worked at the

2:23

big law firm, Winston and Strahn,

2:25

both of their summers for law

2:27

school. Winston and Strahn extended them

2:29

an offer for working after law

2:32

school. And within a few

2:34

hours, Reena sending out an email in

2:36

their capacity as SBA president at NYU

2:38

Law, within a few hours, Winston and

2:40

Strahn had rescinded that offer. Now

2:43

before we get going, I do think

2:45

it'd be useful to tell you folks

2:47

what they actually gotten into trouble for,

2:49

ostensibly, because we do touch

2:51

on some of this in the conversation, but not

2:53

right up front. So I think it will help

2:55

color everyone's understanding of it. So Reena was the

2:58

student bar association president at

3:00

NYU Law, sent out an

3:02

email, part of which said,

3:05

and this is shortly after

3:07

the 10-7 attacks, that Israel

3:09

bears full responsibility for the

3:11

violence. They point out that

3:13

they were referring to violence generally, like

3:16

the violence in the region, not something

3:18

specific to the attacks. But I

3:20

think that's how it was interpreted. And I think that's really the

3:22

heart of what was objected to by their

3:24

future employer. Jenanne had, I

3:26

think, a more complicated situation. Reena, I'll let

3:29

you explain that. Yeah. Reena's firm

3:31

came down on them for the

3:33

email that they sent out. And

3:36

then Jenanne's firm interrogated and then

3:38

fired her based on a

3:41

patchwork, really, of actions

3:43

and expressions that

3:45

Jenanne had done that the firm

3:48

apparently found objectionable. So first, the

3:50

firm interrogated her about participation in

3:52

local chapters of Students for Justice

3:55

in Palestine. They also brought up

3:57

public comments that Jenanne had made.

4:00

at a Chicago city council

4:02

meeting in October, in which

4:04

she spoke out against a

4:06

proposed resolution that only condemned

4:08

Hamas without making mention of

4:10

Palestinians at all or decades

4:12

of occupation. And then the

4:14

firm also interrogated Jenan based

4:16

on her background, like literally

4:18

about her being Palestinian, about

4:20

her being Muslim, and about

4:22

her family being immigrants. Yeah. And

4:25

you know, I think we wanted to

4:27

speak with these folks for a couple

4:30

of reasons. One, I think it's

4:32

just sort of a continuation of a

4:34

discussion we've had over the course

4:36

of a few episodes about free

4:38

speech and what it means

4:40

and for whom free speech

4:42

principles tend to apply in this

4:45

country. The other is

4:47

I think there's something to be said here about

4:49

the ideals

4:51

ostensibly espoused by big

4:54

law firms in particular by

4:56

the legal establishment more broadly.

4:59

You know, while back did a

5:02

episode about Nestle V.

5:04

Doe, right, where

5:06

the legal question was related

5:08

to the use by Nestle

5:11

of child slaves in the

5:13

Ivory Coast. And a

5:15

lot of lawyers kind of jumped to

5:17

the defense of Neil Cattiel,

5:20

who argued that case for Nestle, basically

5:22

saying, look, we're all lawyers, right? We're

5:25

just sort of neutral arbiters of the law.

5:27

We just make arguments on our client's behalf.

5:29

Yeah. That doesn't mean I support

5:31

child slavery or murder or whatever.

5:33

These institutions have always argued that

5:35

they don't really have an ideology,

5:37

right? We're just lawyers. But

5:42

I think situations like this reveal

5:44

that they do have an ideology. And

5:46

if you apply pressure to these institutions,

5:48

they will reveal their ideology. They will

5:50

fight in defense of their

5:52

ideology. They will squash

5:54

dissent from their ideology.

5:57

They have beliefs and they fight. for

6:00

a reactionary agenda. Yeah, and both

6:02

Reena's situation and Janan's situation,

6:05

what was pulled out of

6:07

their statements, what was found

6:09

objectionable and decontextualized really shows

6:11

the bad face response, the

6:13

racist response that these corporations

6:15

are taking to these kinds of

6:18

expressions of solidarity. Yeah, and just

6:20

to be clear on

6:22

something, there's nothing wrong with

6:24

having an ideology. There's nothing wrong

6:27

with a law firm being ideological.

6:30

It's just that these law firms' ideologies suck.

6:32

Well, and that you're laundering it. Yeah, and they lie

6:34

about it. One of the things that's like shoved down

6:37

your throat in law school is like, learn

6:39

to sort of like look past something

6:41

that might bother you and focus on

6:43

the argument, right? Right. Of course, that

6:46

is a framework

6:49

that is preserved for certain

6:51

types of discourse that serve majority

6:53

interests in this country. Right. White

6:55

professors who like to say the

6:57

N-word. When it's someone advocating

7:00

for Palestinians, all of a sudden

7:02

they've crossed the line. That sort

7:04

of argument is objectionable to

7:06

the powers that be in modern legal

7:09

institutions. Yeah, that's right. And I just

7:11

wanted to add this sort of crackdown

7:13

on speech is being done in the

7:16

name of, at least in part,

7:18

American Jews, diaspora

7:21

Jews, and their

7:23

safety. So as you

7:25

listen to these two inspiring, wonderful

7:28

activists speak, I

7:31

think it's worth asking yourself whether

7:33

silencing them would make you feel

7:35

safer. It doesn't make

7:37

me feel safer as someone on whose

7:40

behalf this is ostensibly being done. And

7:43

whose safety is really

7:45

at risk. Right. Okay,

7:48

very pleased to welcome on to five

7:50

to four Jenan Shihadi.

7:52

Jenan is a recent graduate

7:54

of Georgetown Law, just graduated

7:57

this year, and

7:59

has a lot of lot to tell us

8:01

about the law firm that she

8:03

did have a job was about to

8:05

start. Welcome to 5-4, Jenan. Thank you

8:07

so much. Thank you for having me.

8:10

And Rina Workman. Hi, nice to

8:12

meet you guys. Rina is a

8:15

3-0 right now at the law

8:17

school at NYU. Rina

8:19

also has a lot to tell us

8:21

about a job offer at a big

8:24

law firm that was taken away from

8:26

them. Thanks for being here. Glad to

8:28

be here. Good to have you. So thank

8:31

you both so much for being

8:33

here for everything that you've

8:35

said. I am so proud to have

8:37

seen both of you in

8:40

interviews since this happened to you. So

8:42

let's just jump into it. Maybe Jenan, do

8:45

you want to start us off? Just

8:47

talk about why Jenan Shahadi has been

8:49

in the news. What happened? That's

8:52

a great way to put it. Um,

8:54

hello everyone. Again, my name is Jenan

8:56

Shahadi. I'm a recent graduate

8:58

of Georgetown law. I was

9:00

offered a job at Foley and Laudner and

9:03

my employment was terminated the day before I

9:05

was set to start actually. So

9:07

what happened was just to give you a brief

9:09

background, Foley and Laudner is a multi-national

9:11

law firm has offices all around

9:14

the United States. Thousands of attorneys,

9:16

I worked for them like last

9:18

summer for about three months and

9:20

then was rehired as a full-time

9:22

associate upon graduation. I signed

9:24

all the paperwork. I kind of got an apartment right

9:27

next to the law firm and just

9:29

relied on this job and prepared myself for the

9:31

job. Basically. So the day before I was set

9:33

to start, I was called into a meeting with

9:35

the head partners at Foley and Laudner. And

9:38

at this meeting, the managing partners of

9:40

the firm literally interrogated me in

9:42

a hostile manner about my social

9:44

media posts related to Palestine, about

9:46

my advocacy with students for justice

9:48

in Palestine, and it's about my

9:51

background identity as well. They

9:53

actually had with them and this is something that I

9:55

found very interesting. They had with them right

9:57

when we sat down at the meeting, each of the

10:00

had with them a packet of about 15 to

10:02

20 pages that had screenshots of my

10:04

social media posts related to Palestinian rights,

10:07

screenshots of my involvement in organizations

10:09

like SJP Chicago, LSJP,

10:12

which is Law Students for Justice in Palestine,

10:15

and just information about like almost every

10:17

speech I've made, every comment I've made

10:19

about Palestine, my background and identity in

10:21

general. They then asked

10:23

me a series of hostile questions

10:25

about my support for Palestinian rights,

10:27

again my involvement SJP, which is

10:30

a student organization with branches all around

10:32

the country that has a history of

10:34

non-violent and civil discourse, but

10:36

they framed that my support for students for

10:38

justice in Palestine as supporting terrorism. Again

10:41

framing SJP as supporting terrorism

10:44

is an absolutely insane accusation because there's

10:46

hundreds of SJP's around the country. They

10:48

then went on to ask me a

10:50

series of questions even about my family

10:53

and my background, specifically asking about my

10:55

dad and where he works and his

10:57

position and his involvement in

10:59

the community. They then asked

11:01

me whether I condemn Hamas in the

11:03

October 7th attacks. So they

11:05

basically like all these questions in this

11:07

culmination of hours of interrogation, they framed

11:10

my advocacy for Palestine as supporting terrorism.

11:12

Literally like I went into the meeting

11:14

when they called me initially I was

11:16

like you know what I'm gonna go

11:19

with like good vibes and really

11:21

just explain myself because I didn't do

11:23

anything wrong and I went to this

11:25

law firm because it prides itself on

11:27

inclusivity and diversity and right when I

11:29

walked into the meeting unfortunately I knew that it was not that

11:31

type of environment and I was kind of

11:33

interrogated from the start and I

11:35

went on and I was explaining to them how my

11:38

family is affected in the region and how

11:40

like I worry for the lives of my family, for the lives

11:42

of my friends, like I think it was at that

11:44

point 10,000 or 12,000 Palestinians have

11:46

died and I looked and then I said

11:48

like half of those are children and literally

11:50

right after I went in and I was

11:52

telling them the history of this like very

11:55

violent time that Palestinians are

11:57

going through they asked me okay like that's

11:59

great. Do you condemn Hamas? Oh my

12:01

god! Unbelievable! Listening

12:05

to you start, I was going to jokingly ask

12:07

if they asked you to condemn Hamas, but then

12:09

you were like, they asked you to condemn Hamas.

12:11

I was like, wait, is this CNN? Or

12:14

like, where am I right now? At

12:16

this moment? And so at the

12:18

end of that conversation, so they interrogate you,

12:21

Janan, about all of this stuff, which you

12:23

have said in your personal capacity as a

12:25

student, as a member of a separate student

12:27

organization, not part of Foley, not part of

12:30

your job as an associate or anything like

12:32

that. So at the end of

12:34

all of that interrogation, they're just like, okay,

12:36

and also you're fired now. So

12:38

at the end of that interrogation, they're like, okay,

12:41

we're going to meet with leadership. I'm not sure

12:43

what that really meant. And we'll get back to

12:45

you with a final decision. And this

12:47

is kind of when I knew that they came into the

12:49

meeting with already a decision about my employment, and they knew

12:51

that they were going to terminate me. They were just like

12:53

trying to get, I think, I don't know if it was

12:56

information or anything. And

12:58

then that's when I really kind of

13:00

pushed back and said, is it the

13:02

firm's position to censor upcoming associates, or

13:05

to not support diversity in geopolitical affairs?

13:08

And so this, they said that we don't

13:10

censor associates unless they're supporting terrorism or

13:12

inciting violence. It's like a national security

13:14

issue that they were dealing with. Yeah,

13:17

basically. Right. Thanks,

13:19

Foley. Yeah. Just to

13:21

point out, I am literally one of

13:23

two visibly Muslim Arab woman associates in

13:26

the law firm nationwide, and this is

13:28

thousands upon thousands of attorneys. So

13:30

for them to view my Palestine advocacy

13:33

as terrorism is like a

13:35

racist smear with no factual backing,

13:37

as we know, because supporting Palestinian

13:39

rights is about equality and liberation.

13:42

So I was like, okay, fine. I left

13:44

the meeting, cried for a bit just

13:46

because of how helpless and small I felt. Yeah.

13:49

So I went on from that and I got a

13:51

call later that night that my appointment was terminated. So

13:54

now it's one visibly Muslim person

13:57

at Foley and Lardner. Right, yeah.

13:59

Basically, yeah. I

14:02

don't know who that is, but watch your back. Right,

14:05

right. Stay frosty over there

14:07

fully. Peter has

14:09

some experience getting fired. I

14:12

do be getting fired. Getting grilled and

14:14

fired. Yeah, getting interrogated and then fired.

14:16

I think Peter can relate in some

14:18

aspects. I mean, I remember the meeting, you know?

14:20

Right. It's true. The

14:23

vibes of the meeting are very identifiable very quickly. You're like, oh,

14:25

this is the end. Yeah.

14:30

Yeah. Yeah. So,

14:32

you're positioned slightly different, right? Because you're a

14:34

current student. Yeah. But you had

14:36

that offer from Winston and Strawn. Yes. Another

14:39

big law firm. You had the

14:41

offer for employment as, you

14:43

know, a first year associate after graduating.

14:46

Tell us what happened to you? What did Winston and

14:48

Strawn do? Yeah. So,

14:50

my story is a lot shorter, unfortunately, for me.

14:54

Because basically, I sent a

14:56

message to law students at

14:58

around noon on a Tuesday.

15:01

And by 5 p.m. on that same

15:03

Tuesday, my offer from Winston and Strawn

15:05

had been revoked. I like

15:07

the language of the offer. But I think

15:09

it's important to note that it wasn't just

15:11

an offer. It was an offer that I

15:13

had already accepted. Exactly. And

15:15

that they had turned over. It was

15:17

something that was already supposedly

15:20

a done deal. So within five hours

15:22

of me sending that message, my offer

15:24

was revoked. And I think it's important

15:26

to note that small timeframe, because I

15:28

didn't send this message publicly. I

15:31

actually sent it in my capacity as

15:33

student bar association president, which only

15:35

goes to current law students. So

15:38

it's in that five hours. Not only did it get

15:40

leaked to the media, I also

15:42

received emails that I was cc'd on

15:45

that people were sending to my employer

15:47

at Winston and Strawn to like

15:49

the hiring people, to the recruiting

15:52

people, just basically like begging them

15:54

to fire me. And

15:56

then they did. So it's like it wasn't as

15:58

though Winston and Strawn. was

16:01

like making this kind of separate

16:04

decision. It was like clearly a decision

16:06

influenced by a like concerted

16:08

harassment campaign, which

16:10

I have found has been happening

16:13

both at the university as well,

16:15

where like the university is making

16:17

policies to fit the various like

16:19

campaigns that certain folks will drive

16:22

instead of just making decisions that actually make

16:24

sense or have you taken the time to

16:27

like get all the facts about whatever

16:29

situation. Did they send you an

16:31

email? Did they call you Winston and Strand? Like how

16:33

did you find out? I actually found

16:35

out because someone sent

16:37

me Winston and Strand's tweet

16:41

about removing my offer. Oh my God.

16:43

They did send me an email before

16:45

they tweeted about it, but

16:48

because on October 10th I

16:50

received probably anywhere from between like 100 to 200

16:52

spam, emails

16:55

like emails to my inbox

16:57

that were just like terrible. I didn't see

16:59

their email until after I saw it on

17:01

Twitter. So I went back and like searched

17:03

it to find it. So

17:05

I found out when everyone else did. I

17:08

have a question. Jenen touched on

17:10

this already that like in

17:12

this conversation with the partners,

17:15

it is obvious that aspects of

17:17

your identity are highly relevant

17:20

to their decision. And I'm

17:22

just wondering if you think

17:24

there are both of you, people of color, women or

17:26

non-binary people here, what

17:31

do you both think about the

17:33

decisions made by these law firms

17:35

with respect to your employment that

17:37

they took into account other aspects

17:39

of your identity beyond just

17:42

your expression of pro-Palestine solidarity?

17:44

Do you think that other

17:46

aspects of your identity played a role in their

17:48

decisions? I mean, I'm

17:50

not sure. One thing I will say is I

17:53

was talking about this with someone else that

17:55

like the way it was framed in those

17:58

first few days, like in headlines. was

18:00

always non-binary student, Reena Wertman says X,

18:02

Y, and Z. And I

18:05

always thought that was really interesting because that's

18:07

not even something that I advertised

18:09

like that. I only recently

18:11

came out to my family and not even

18:13

to my extended family. So that's definitely never

18:15

something that I would have asked to be in

18:17

a headline. And it's not like the

18:19

firm didn't know that I was non-binary and they

18:22

know I'm black. So I'm not really

18:24

sure. I think it definitely is an

18:27

issue of who's disposable. If

18:29

not like explicitly because I just

18:31

don't, I'm not sure that if I had

18:33

had other identities, whether I would have been

18:35

fired without even getting

18:37

contacted, or even asked

18:40

about it, right? Like it was just, oh, nope, they

18:42

can go. We don't even have to talk to them

18:44

about it. We can just get rid

18:46

of them. And so I definitely think that's something. There's

18:49

sort of like a presumption, it feels like

18:51

in these like HR circles that

18:53

when you see, for example, a radical statement from

18:56

a black person, it registers

18:58

in their brain as familiar, right?

19:00

This sort of like radicalism that

19:03

makes them inherently uncomfortable. Yeah. Janan,

19:05

I know you've talked about them like

19:07

saying you're a visibly Muslim woman, you

19:09

are hijabi. Like that was,

19:12

it sounds like actually a part of the

19:14

conversation, the interrogation that you had. Yeah, I

19:16

think mine was much more clear and

19:19

that it was very specifically for my background

19:21

identity, even the line of questioning going from

19:23

like, again, your posts,

19:25

then to your involvement, SJP, then

19:28

to whether you condemn Hamas, then to like,

19:30

where's your family from? Like, where does your dad

19:33

work? All these questions are like very tied to

19:35

my identity and who I am. And

19:37

even like when it comes to, I think

19:39

this is all framed as like my political

19:41

opinion when it comes to Palestine, but like

19:44

make no mistake, like this was specifically for

19:46

my background because speaking out for Palestine is

19:48

not just a political opinion for me. It's

19:50

something that's deeply embedded in my identity as

19:52

someone who has family in the region. Reina

19:55

pointed out like a very good point about when

19:57

it comes to like minority groups, it's more guilty

19:59

before. proven innocent. Like I'm not sure if

20:01

I made the same post on social media,

20:04

which is again, we're just about Palestinian rights

20:06

upholding international law, like the way these firms

20:08

frame it make it seem like so radical

20:11

and like it wasn't even that radical. But

20:14

yeah, I think it's like guilty before proven

20:16

innocent. It was like, Oh, you said these

20:18

statements, you are a visibly Muslim, hijabi woman,

20:20

automatically, like what registers in their mind as terrorism.

20:23

And it takes us back again, to a post

20:25

9 11 era of like,

20:27

otherization of Arab and Muslim communities. And

20:29

even for me, I've been

20:31

doing a lot of research these past couple

20:33

of weeks about like the Black Panther Party.

20:35

I know there was kind of a piece

20:38

called creating the enemy in which the FBI

20:40

in order to frame the Black Panther Party,

20:42

which was an organizing unit, they use like

20:44

rhetoric and media by politicians to frame the

20:46

Black Panthers as like a

20:48

threat, like a terrorism threat. So

20:51

like this same language of like otherization and

20:53

war rhetoric that is being used against people

20:55

who speak up for Palestinian rights is like

20:58

straight out of the playbook, even the McCarthyism

21:00

era. So this is nothing new. Yeah.

21:02

And it's hard to quantifiably

21:06

say this, but I suspect as someone

21:08

with a sort of Jewish sounding last

21:10

name and a Semitic

21:13

Jewish presenting face, I

21:15

could get away with the statements, both

21:18

of you made without losing a

21:20

job offer at a big firm. Yeah,

21:22

there's something to I think, this

21:25

sort of dominant American culture

21:28

that sees Black people and

21:30

Muslims as inherently threatening, so

21:32

that anything that's even approaching

21:35

the line is

21:37

assumed to be threatening. Right.

21:40

Yeah. Whereas I

21:42

am not threatening and therefore I

21:44

have leeway to express

21:47

different viewpoints without an

21:49

assumption of threat. Right.

21:51

Yeah. Well, and all of

21:53

us have seen whether you're a lawyer

21:56

practicing at a big law firm or

21:58

a law student or anywhere,

22:00

across society, all of us have

22:03

seen people in our lives on

22:05

their personal social media or in

22:07

their personal capacities express viewpoints in

22:09

support of Israel, in

22:11

support of Israeli military violence,

22:14

right? Oh, for sure. Calling

22:16

for mass violence, right? Supportive

22:19

of mass violence, supportive of

22:21

wartime atrocities, collective punishment,

22:23

all of it, right? But because

22:26

that's state violence, that's totally fine.

22:28

They don't suffer these consequences that

22:30

you two have suffered, right? On

22:33

that point, like there, I know of

22:35

like multiple people at Foley and specifically

22:38

like a high-up attorney that Foley who

22:40

have literally encouraged violence, like

22:43

partners at the firm who have encouraged Israeli

22:45

violence and those who have stood with Israel

22:47

and none of these individuals were

22:49

called into a meeting or interrogated or fired.

22:52

So when you think about like kind

22:54

of again, just like how this

22:56

standard is not applied uniformly, it takes

22:58

us back to, yes, this is tied

23:00

to political opinion, but more our identity,

23:02

like how disposable we are of like,

23:04

honestly, I think that when they

23:06

terminated my employment, they did not expect all of

23:08

this. They kind of just expected me to go

23:10

quietly and I think this really caught them off

23:12

guard. But this is kind of the point, right?

23:14

And that's why we're here today of like, they

23:16

can't just pick at us one by one, like

23:18

we will stand by each other and this is

23:20

not a normal thing. Like

23:22

we, I guess we're gonna

23:24

fight back to make sure that this doesn't happen to anybody

23:26

else. Yeah. Janelle, can

23:28

I drill down on the meeting?

23:31

Because the fact that they asked about like

23:33

your heritage in very direct ways, I

23:35

was an employment lawyer and it

23:38

just feels so obviously illegal that I have to

23:40

ask more questions about it. Like,

23:43

did they look at what is illegal and be

23:45

like, we're gonna do that? We're gonna break the

23:47

law today. Right. We're

23:49

gonna get our asses sued. Hot legal

23:51

tip, when you're about to fire someone,

23:53

don't start talking about their like demographic

23:56

qualities in the meeting. So they asked

23:58

about Like

24:01

where your father works what was there like

24:03

an ostensible purpose there? What would like could

24:05

you tell what they were getting at in

24:07

their own mind? I honestly like could not

24:09

tell you like yeah I came into that

24:11

meeting and unfortunately I was very caught off

24:13

guard and I did have my guard

24:16

down and I was like these are people that I

24:18

worked with like For three months that I have a

24:20

personal relationship with yeah, I'm gonna explain myself I'm

24:22

gonna explain like what's going on in Palestine literally I came

24:25

in I was like I'm gonna use this as an educational

24:27

moment and like talk about what's going on in Palestine Palestine

24:30

teaching Palestine

24:33

101 let's go Unfortunately,

24:35

it was not like that also I was truly

24:37

caught off guard and I was answering

24:40

their questions as they were coming and I don't

24:42

know how it got to that Degree where they're asking about

24:44

my father and I think that

24:46

was very alarming to me That's when something went off

24:49

on my brain of like this is

24:51

not good because I have family that's undocumented And

24:53

so that was like very like again alarm bells started

24:56

going off in my head I honestly

24:58

couldn't tell you the questions range from like

25:00

about my father to for me I'm

25:03

the founder of SJP Chicago LSPP at Georgetown

25:05

mall president of SJP de Paul They kept

25:07

on listing all these things and saying like

25:09

these are organizations that have like supported terrorism

25:11

Like what do you say about that? What

25:13

do you say about SJP Chicago's recent post

25:16

again? Just like question after question about things

25:18

that don't really even concern me

25:20

They even asked why I didn't include SJP

25:22

Chicago on my resume and like I should

25:24

be DePaul. I wonder why Why? Had

25:29

we known that you were affiliated

25:31

with Palestinian organization Exactly

25:35

so I wish I had a clear answer for

25:37

you But at that moment was like severely caught

25:39

off guard And I wish I said that I

25:41

don't want to answer that question and not answer

25:43

their question That would not have worked for the

25:45

record in terms of keeping your job I

25:50

want to talk about you know bigger

25:52

picture stuff with both of you But

25:54

before we get to that Rina you

25:56

touched on you know hundreds of emails

25:58

with an hour hitting

26:01

your inbox. I did want to just touch

26:03

briefly on like this is not just that

26:06

both of you lost jobs but

26:09

there are consequences beyond that kind

26:11

of material that that big thing.

26:14

Doxing, harassment, that kind of thing. Reena do

26:16

you just want to talk about

26:18

what that has been like for you? You

26:20

are currently a law student.

26:22

You are currently taking finals right

26:24

now. What has that felt

26:27

like on campus, in class, in your life?

26:29

So I definitely think that three weeks

26:32

after I sent

26:34

my message on the 10th of October it was like

26:37

ridiculous like to my email like to

26:39

my school email which is important I think. That

26:41

wasn't just like my personal email that I could kind of

26:43

filter out. This is the email that I was using for

26:46

school and I was receiving like

26:48

I think about the total of it it

26:50

was like 200 300 emails and

26:52

those are ones that got sent to

26:54

my email account they were also like

26:56

spamming our like SBA email account to

26:58

get to me. SBA is Student

27:01

Bar Association that's like the

27:03

student governing body at

27:05

law school. Yeah so that was

27:07

really alarming and it definitely

27:09

made things difficult. I remember I was like

27:12

talking to administration all of my issues

27:14

the more aggressive issues I've had have

27:16

been with NYU as an institution but

27:18

I was trying to like figure out

27:21

how to get that changed and then they

27:23

were really slow moving by the time I

27:25

even got any confirmation about whether my email

27:27

could be changed or would be allowed to be

27:29

changed by that point was like the first

27:31

or second week of November and the emails had

27:33

kind of tapered off and so I was

27:35

like thanks for nothing and then

27:37

I think like you know also

27:39

like I was president of the Student Bar Association

27:42

and then I was told that I could no

27:44

longer hold that position by an

27:46

administrator even though I was elected by

27:48

students and then to kind

27:50

of in my opinion cover their tracks they

27:53

made sure to facilitate a no-confidence vote that

27:55

the students petitioned for in very suspect

27:59

ways. And then I

28:01

was voted out officially in November. I

28:03

was supposed to take the MPRE, which is

28:05

like this professional responsibility exam, because I'm in

28:07

professional responsibility right now. And

28:09

because of everything going on, I

28:12

couldn't study, I couldn't do anything. And

28:14

so I just canceled my MPRE exam.

28:16

So it's just, it's had a lot

28:18

of effects in ways that

28:20

I didn't realize it would. And I think it's

28:22

because it's like a constant fight

28:25

with other students on this

28:27

campus who engage in this

28:29

kind of like harassment campaigning,

28:31

where it's not just like they tell

28:34

like them and two of their friends, like go

28:36

bother this person on social media. It's like

28:39

they amass like hundreds of people

28:41

to comment on your posts or

28:44

to send DMs to your Instagram

28:46

account. Cause that was a whole other thing. Like

28:48

I went on private before I was ready to

28:50

come public. And then as soon as I came

28:52

off private, it was like, we're

28:54

ready for you. And it continues to

28:56

happen. Like just yesterday, I was in an exam

28:58

for four hours. I got out of my exam

29:00

and I opened Instagram and I had like 10

29:03

DMs. And I was like,

29:05

where did these come from? And then I

29:07

found out through Google alerts that someone had

29:09

tweeted my Al Jazeera interview and said that

29:11

I was pledging my allegiance to Hamas. And

29:14

so then I got a bunch of

29:16

DMs, just hateful stuff. Do you regret

29:18

pledging your allegiance to Hamas on Al

29:20

Jazeera? I

29:24

just wanna say I haven't cleared either

29:26

of these statements with Peter and Rhiannon,

29:29

but I believe the position of

29:32

the podcast is that ACAB includes

29:34

everyone who snitched

29:36

on Rhiannon. Oh yeah, right. Yes.

29:40

Also that snitches get stitches.

29:42

Yeah. True.

29:46

Rhiannon, I have a question for you. Has NYU

29:48

offered even in like a sort of backhanded way, any

29:53

sort of support for the harassment that

29:55

you've received, has there been any sort of like Hey,

30:01

we have resources or anything along

30:03

those lines. Yeah, so Two

30:05

things I think it's interesting because the law

30:08

school and NYU They're

30:10

supposed to be one entity But they're really kind

30:12

of two separate entities at least in the

30:14

way that my issues have been addressed Yeah,

30:17

the law school I would argue actually

30:19

enabled harassment against me by putting out

30:21

two different statements the same week

30:23

I send out my email basically saying, you

30:25

know This person can don't terrorism, but

30:27

we don't and we don't believe in the

30:30

killing of civilians And anyone who does

30:32

doesn't reflect our values So that was like a whole

30:34

separate issue and then they didn't follow

30:36

up a message at all Like

30:38

oh actually don't dachshund harass our

30:40

law student Right because they

30:43

have multiple marginalized identities that are being used

30:45

against them none of that Whereas

30:47

the university stepped in

30:50

I talked to campus safety They want me to talk

30:52

to NYPD and I was like not doing that Yeah,

30:54

and then they like kept trying to push wellness eventually

30:56

I did wind up going to wellness because it was

30:59

bad But like as far as

31:01

the law school doing anything absolutely and wellness

31:03

is like like mental health support

31:05

on campus Or is that what that is? Yeah, so

31:08

I think like the university I would say

31:10

maybe Did more did something

31:12

I guess but it's like I

31:15

am an NYU student But I'm NYU law student and

31:17

the law school has other means

31:19

to do different things and instead of

31:21

doing those They chose to like put

31:23

out statements against me prevent me from

31:25

doing my student elected position Not

31:28

offering me any material support in terms of

31:30

like getting a new job or

31:32

even contacting my firm I mean, I I

31:34

don't know I'm not a university law school

31:36

admin But I would think it's pretty bad

31:39

look for one of your students to

31:41

get their job offer evoked for sharing an opinion Expressing

31:44

solidarity because how do you tell

31:46

incoming students that they have job

31:48

prospects when at any point? They

31:51

can have their job offer evoked just for sending an

31:53

email I want to back

31:55

up really quick you said they put out

31:57

a statement. It sounds like their statement implied

31:59

that you support violence

32:01

against civilians and terrorism. The law

32:03

school you're currently at did that

32:06

while you were a student there.

32:08

I want to be explicit. And

32:11

maybe we should sort of like drill down

32:13

so it doesn't look like we're dancing around

32:15

something but the statement that you put out

32:17

just said that Israel

32:19

bears full responsibility for the

32:21

attacks. And actually not even the

32:24

attacks. It says Israel bears full responsibility

32:26

for this tremendous amount of violence.

32:28

Is that why in every article I

32:30

read the quote cuts off after Israel

32:33

bears full responsibility? Of

32:35

course. That's also the

32:37

first like that's like the second sentence

32:39

of the message and in the first

32:41

paragraph there's two paragraphs here then the

32:43

second one in my opinion was the one that

32:45

was like the meat of the message the most

32:48

important part which condemns the

32:50

violence of military occupation

32:53

of apartheid of using

32:55

white phosphorous bombs calling people human animals

32:57

and so when I talk about tremendous

32:59

violence I was actually commenting on

33:02

the fact that Israel has engaged in

33:04

the siege for over two decades that

33:06

they've been occupying Palestinian land for you

33:08

know 75 years but obviously

33:10

if you take out of context you

33:13

get the picture that I you know

33:15

do whatever the terrorism. I

33:18

will note even though it is not what you

33:20

said that Israel

33:22

and especially the right-wing government of

33:24

Israel bearing responsibility for the October

33:26

7th attacks is a

33:29

I wouldn't say non-controversial but at

33:31

least widely held

33:34

opinion right acceptable in

33:37

the discourse in Israeli society right

33:39

like right you can find headlines

33:41

in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post

33:43

doing that right op-eds laying out

33:46

the case yeah that's what

33:48

I quoted in my press release the week

33:50

after I was like it's actually ridiculous

33:53

I just goes to our point a point

33:55

about like I didn't write right like if I

33:57

was a white Israeli saying what I said

34:00

Everyone would be like wow, what a critique

34:02

like a great opinion. I'm so glad you're

34:04

using your critical thinking skills Right to really

34:06

condemn this right wing government, but it's like

34:08

oh if I'm a black person expressing solidarity

34:10

with another group of oppressed people That's

34:13

too radical for us And actually we're gonna say

34:15

a bunch of things that you didn't say in

34:18

order to make it seem like so Which

34:21

is why I have another issue with like my firm

34:23

just Revoking my offer without even

34:25

asking me about it because it's like I don't

34:27

know what you saw in the media Did you

34:29

actually read my message because I can't believe

34:31

that if you actually read the email that I

34:33

sent you would come to the conclusion That

34:37

they came to and what they cited

34:39

in their post about like oh this

34:41

conflicts their values I'm like what conflicts

34:43

your values condemning military apartheid like that

34:45

doesn't it's not it's not adding up to

34:47

make it make sense Make it make

34:49

sense. Please if you support Palestinian

34:52

rights in this country This is like basically what

34:54

it's always been at least as long as I've

34:57

been an adult since the second intifada And I

34:59

assume before then but I was a child Every

35:02

inference gets made against you

35:04

in these cases, right? Every bad

35:06

faith leap you're given absolutely

35:09

no grace to say something

35:11

and When you

35:13

make a statement they will basically

35:15

round to the nearest support for

35:17

terrorists Like any statement that could

35:19

be even conceivably read in a

35:21

bad faith way This is

35:23

why like from the river to the sea gets read

35:25

as a call to genocide, right? Not

35:28

just that but like in the discourse now people

35:30

will be like well This is unequivocally a call

35:32

for genocide or something like that, right? They

35:34

will take a statement that has

35:36

no clear connection to terrorism to

35:39

violence against civilians Right, right just

35:41

sort of like move it there

35:44

Steadily and it's on you To

35:47

sort of explain how it's not right

35:49

to explain why you are innocent Despite

35:52

the fact that you haven't said anything

35:54

that you're being accused of right and

35:56

meanwhile It's so frustrating to have this

35:58

burden put on you all

36:00

of the time to explain, explain,

36:02

explain, explain. Because meanwhile, the bombs

36:05

are dropping, white phosphorus is dropping,

36:07

children are lost under the rubble

36:09

forever. Mass violence is happening right

36:11

now. That is what we're trying

36:13

to talk about. These consequences, major

36:15

life-changing, material consequences are falling on

36:17

you and losing your jobs, the

36:19

doxxing, the harassment, and on top

36:21

of it, that you are constantly

36:23

having to explain your statement, you

36:26

prove somehow to everybody

36:28

that you are nonviolent,

36:31

that you are safe, that you

36:33

will not make them uncomfortable, right? Right,

36:35

and I wanna point out that, you

36:37

know, even the institutions that are

36:39

partaking in this aren't safe from

36:41

it, right? Like look at the

36:44

university presidents getting dragged before Congress.

36:46

Exactly. And giving what was basically

36:48

a cut and dry explanation of

36:50

their policies and,

36:52

you know, getting absolutely

36:55

annihilated by the mainstream

36:57

media, nonstop coverage from

36:59

like the New York Times, at least

37:01

one resignation so far, who knows, if

37:03

it'll just be one by the time

37:06

this airs. There's an irony

37:08

there that a lot of these

37:10

institutions have sort of participated in

37:12

this sort of witch hunt

37:15

culture surrounding Palestinian activism and

37:17

are now the victims of it because the

37:19

entire apparatus is designed to

37:22

operate in bad faith. Right. I mean,

37:24

yeah, I remember when this all started,

37:26

when Winston, my firm, fired me so

37:28

quickly, the comments then immediately

37:31

shifted to Dean McKenzie, the Dean

37:33

of NYU Law School, to be

37:35

like, look, they're a firm, and they

37:37

would never use my pronouns, her firm, you know,

37:39

fired her. So what are you doing? Like you

37:41

need to expel her, you know, this is weak.

37:44

Like he's putting out statements that expressly condemn my

37:46

opinion, enabling for the rest of

37:48

it, but that's not enough. They are still

37:50

coming after him and coming after the board of trustees

37:53

and even just the general student body of this law

37:55

school. Like, for example, when the vote came out, the

37:57

vote was like 60-40 against me. were

38:00

still like, I can't believe 400 students

38:03

approve of Reno Workman's message.

38:05

And it's like, this is never enough for

38:07

these people. Like, you need to stop catering

38:09

to them and giving into them and

38:11

instead support your like marginalized students

38:14

and stop worrying about what this

38:16

like violent group of people wants

38:18

because it's never going to be

38:20

enough. Yeah. So sick. That's

38:22

a really good point. Janan, maybe

38:24

we'll start with you. I kind of want to talk

38:26

about maybe lessons that both of

38:28

you have drawn from this advice that

38:30

you would give to other people who

38:32

want to speak out, but maybe fear

38:34

similar consequences. How

38:36

has this changed your idea, if

38:39

at all, about practicing law or

38:41

your career goals, practicing

38:43

in this space? You go to law school for three

38:45

years, you graduate, you study

38:47

for the bar, you pass, congratulations.

38:50

Thank you. You are a licensed

38:52

attorney. You train for this. You

38:54

train to have this job. You work a

38:56

summer there at a big law firm. This

38:58

is a prestigious position. And

39:01

then this happens. Has that just

39:03

changed your career goals, changed your ideas

39:05

about what you wanted to do in

39:07

the law, how you wanted to

39:09

participate in this profession? Yeah, 100%. I

39:11

think it did. And just to give you

39:14

like background about why I went to law school. Like, I

39:17

know it's like the same story that all minorities

39:19

face about like when you ask why we went

39:21

to law school, like I'm a first generation Muslim

39:23

woman with like physical disabilities, I faced like the

39:25

brute force and seen the brute force of

39:27

the immigration system, the criminal justice system, our

39:30

healthcare system from literally I remember I

39:32

was in the hospital for like six

39:35

months in my roommate who had like stage

39:37

four cancer was sent home because her health

39:39

insurance like stopped. So from a very young

39:41

age, I always knew that I wanted to

39:43

create like some kind of change of using

39:45

the law, which is weaponized against us a

39:48

lot as like a tool towards change as

39:50

like lame as that sounds. Not at all. Unfortunately,

39:53

I'm also a first generation woman.

39:55

So like I my family also depended

39:57

on me to be like the breadwinner at

39:59

a certain level. to provide for my family. So

40:01

I decided to go to a big law route

40:03

and kind of get that resources and training and

40:05

just stabilize me and myself and my family. But

40:08

through all of this, and I think it's not

40:10

only this experience, but truly these past two months,

40:13

I think we've all witnessed kind of an awakening

40:15

of like what really is the point

40:17

of all of this. Like, yes, you

40:20

know, money is in part all this stuff and financial security

40:22

is in part, but at what cost?

40:24

Like how far am I willing to sell

40:26

myself and my views and like

40:28

my values to be at these positions? So

40:31

when you ask like, how's this experience changed

40:33

my career path and where I wanna go,

40:36

these past two months, like

40:39

I mean it when I say I'm a different person than

40:41

I was two months ago. Like we

40:43

are more unapologetic. We are more

40:45

like bold and courageous and brave

40:47

because like I, we have nothing

40:49

to lose. Like this is something that like

40:51

me and my family, my friends talk about

40:53

a lot of like, you know, we wanna

40:56

climb the ladder in the US and like

40:58

have a good career and like change it

41:00

from the inside and yeah, maybe that's important.

41:02

But where has that brought us? Like we've

41:04

been doing that for decades and like we

41:06

are truly at the worst point we've ever

41:08

been. I have friends that

41:10

have lost 40 members of their family and

41:12

this is not a unique story. Like in

41:14

Chicago, almost every Palestinian family has someone that

41:17

they've lost or that's been impacted. Like

41:19

my family in Lebanon right

41:21

now, the area is taking in refugees from

41:23

South Lebanon and a lot of people that

41:25

have been impacted. So we talk about

41:27

like, again, career changes. Honestly,

41:30

I'm trying to see like where I could

41:32

take my career in a point that's true

41:34

to who I am and my values. And

41:37

that's unapologetic in the future because yes,

41:39

we're focused right now on this bombardment

41:41

of Gaza, but make no mistake, as

41:44

long as like it's right occupation of

41:46

Gaza and of Palestine exists, there will

41:48

be another siege on Gaza and it

41:50

will probably be worse and the cycle

41:52

will continue for the past two decades

41:54

on Gaza, there's been over 15 seizures

41:57

and burn fragments. But a person

41:59

that's my age, in Gaza right now

42:01

has probably seen about, I

42:03

want to say like 10 seizures on Gaza. So

42:06

this will continue until we can like collectively

42:08

awaken that we live in the belly of

42:10

the beast and literally our tax

42:12

dollars right now are supplying the bombs that are

42:14

falling in Gaza. And we say this over again

42:16

right I see this in all my speeches, I

42:19

see this in protests, but what does this mean?

42:21

It's to be complicit in this. It means that

42:23

we have a duty to be on the front

42:25

lines when it comes to organizing

42:27

for Palestine. So yes as devastating

42:29

as this was for my career and

42:32

as much as I was relying on this

42:34

financially, like I truly have no regrets when it

42:37

comes to what I said in speaking up

42:39

for Palestine, I will never have any regrets

42:41

because this is such a small sacrifice compared to

42:43

what the people in Gaza are enduring. So

42:46

again I think I have been awakened, a

42:48

lot of people have been awakened and we're

42:50

realizing more and more about we cannot continue

42:52

slaving away to this corporate and institutions

42:54

that are literally aiding and the genocide

42:56

of our people. Yeah. Reena your

42:58

thoughts just about you know. Yeah

43:01

read the same question. No

43:04

thank you. Because you all you know current

43:06

law student too and just think you know

43:09

really just at the very beginning of your career.

43:11

So go ahead. Yeah. Yeah so I think it's

43:14

interesting for a lot of reasons. I came

43:16

to law school for similar reasons and

43:19

there aren't any other lawyers in my theater. I think I'd like

43:21

the first or third cousin that's a lawyer but

43:23

he's only like a few years older than me so it's

43:25

like the same like lateral but I'm from

43:28

South Carolina also so I've lived in South

43:30

Carolina my whole life. I came to New

43:32

York for law school because

43:34

of how I saw

43:36

like New York lawyers moving in the

43:38

immigration space during like Trump's Muslim ban

43:40

and I was like oh that's so cool

43:42

like people are helping people in JFK like

43:45

I want to do something like that but

43:47

one thing I'll comment on in general is that

43:50

coming to law school as a

43:53

like black person with no other lawyers

43:55

in their family it was really easy for

43:57

me to get roped in to like

43:59

drinking. the big law coup aide, you know, like, they

44:01

come to these things, they, you know, buy you dinners,

44:03

they're not even just about the dinners. It's like, you

44:06

meet people who you like, like, they network with you

44:08

and you're like, oh, like, this is a

44:10

really cool person, like, they do really

44:12

interesting work. And because I

44:14

really had no, like, conception

44:16

of public interest law other than like,

44:19

doing good work to help people, like, which

44:21

is awesome, but it just wasn't like, tangible

44:23

to me, especially as a first year law student, you

44:26

speak to big law attorneys and they're like, oh, we'll train

44:28

you, like, you'll be able to do such good work, your

44:30

career, like, you can always do public interest later, but you

44:33

really need to get this, like, training and you need to

44:35

like, be in a place that can make you a better

44:37

lawyer. And I was like, I want to be a great

44:39

lawyer. Like, that's why I came to law school. I'm spending

44:41

so much money to be here. And so

44:43

yeah, so like, I got a diversity fellowship

44:46

or scholarship, whatever, with Winston, my one else

44:48

summer. So I've actually been, I was

44:50

at Winston for two summers. Okay. And so I

44:53

built those relationships. I worked in their Charlotte office when

44:55

I was a one out summer. And then when I

44:57

was two, all summer, I was in New York. So

44:59

it's like two offices, I meet a bunch of people,

45:01

I have really good relationships with all of them. And

45:04

so I was fully set to come back. Like, and

45:06

I enjoyed the work I was doing both as

45:09

like a summer in like, firm stuff. And then

45:11

also like, pro bono stuff, we did a lot

45:13

of cool stuff. So I was like, this is a

45:15

good balance. Like, I really loved our chief diversity officer.

45:17

She made me feel really seen even when it came

45:19

out as non-binary. If I was like, this is this is

45:21

good, I can make this work. But

45:23

similar to do not, I think that these past

45:25

two months have really shifted

45:28

that for me, because I was

45:30

just reminded so quickly that like, personal

45:33

relationships only matter, sorry,

45:35

if you're white, like, I can

45:37

have the best relationships in the world. But at the end

45:39

of the day, if I'm a black non-binary person, those

45:42

relationships only matter so much because the

45:44

relationships I had were not with

45:46

the white hiring manager who sent

45:49

me the email roping my offer, right? Like, and

45:51

I didn't hear anything from any of the people

45:53

that I did have relationships with before that happened.

45:55

So it's like, clearly, my view of the relationship

45:57

was not the same. And so to

46:00

me, I think like,

46:03

as far as career movement goes, I

46:05

want to go somewhere that doesn't require

46:07

me to have a personal relationship to

46:09

feel like I belong in that place.

46:12

And part of that is being around people

46:14

who have similar politics, similar worldviews, because then

46:17

you don't need that personal relationship to feel

46:19

safe in your position, right? Like you can

46:21

be in an environment and know

46:23

that people see you for

46:26

being a good attorney, not just because you're friendly, and

46:28

you can talk to my other stuff, and

46:31

not feeling like you're there as a diversity

46:33

hire, which I explicitly was, and I'm not

46:35

ashamed of that. Like that is like the

46:37

fellowship program is so that you can be

46:40

in a position that you might not have been

46:42

able to get because you don't have any lawyers

46:44

in your family. So like, that's something that has

46:47

shifted. And I think that

46:49

this idea of

46:51

being able to do good work has also

46:53

changed for me because I was able to do

46:56

a clinic at NYU. And so I work

46:58

with legal aid in their housing department. And so

47:00

I did tenant defense. And that was awesome. And that was

47:02

something tangible that I was able to do, that

47:04

I didn't know about before I accepted my office

47:06

at Winston for the first summer, and

47:08

even the second summer, actually. So it was just

47:10

like, this is giving me an opportunity to explore

47:13

those options that I didn't really know I had

47:15

before I accepted my offer at Winston. But

47:17

I also think we're not like, you know, we're

47:19

not under the rubble. And so at the end

47:22

of the day, it's like these consequences for me,

47:24

I can move through that. And

47:26

I should move through that and everyone should move

47:28

through that. Like having endurance is important in this

47:30

moment, and continuing to be in

47:32

a space where I can keep doing that. And so

47:34

I'm grateful that I do have a semester left

47:36

of law school to cause some

47:39

good trouble. I think you made really

47:42

great points. And I think what

47:44

I was also trying to point out, and I

47:46

don't think we should all be like, quitting our

47:48

jobs. And like, I'm not like I did get

47:50

anybody in big law at all or meant to

47:53

like shame them. It's truly just

47:55

meant to point out that we are like in

47:57

a time where we can't really remain passive about

47:59

our condition anymore. and kind of be like

48:01

zombie mode, like get the job, keep going, like

48:03

all of this stuff, which I

48:05

think personally I've been in for a while. It's

48:08

more to say that there is a way to like use

48:10

our power and be strategic in like every

48:13

area is space written. And

48:15

I think when it comes to students, there's been

48:17

a lot of fear when it comes to speaking

48:19

up and that's obviously for due reason. And

48:22

I think something that I've been thinking

48:24

about a lot is how like students and youth

48:26

have kind of always been at the forefront of

48:28

like any liberation movement. They've always been the ones

48:31

that have been like the most aggressive and unapologetic

48:33

about the truth and just like pushing the discourse

48:35

forward. And that's why they've been always the one

48:37

that have been constantly under attacks the most. It's

48:40

been heightened with this time, right? But

48:42

I've been trying to change my view and I

48:44

think I would really encourage students and all of

48:47

us here to change our view about these escalation

48:49

of doxxing and firing. It's not as a result

48:51

of our lack of power, but it's more like

48:53

more and more people are being called to like

48:55

the truth and all like, and this awakening really,

48:58

Zionists have really lost control of the

49:00

narrative. I think there was a leaked

49:02

interview by the director of the

49:04

Anti-Defamation League where he said,

49:07

we have a huge generational problem. So

49:09

when we think about this, it's just like, truly

49:11

like there's an entire generation of people that's not

49:13

limited to a certain background or

49:15

identity or like job that have awakened

49:18

and are like fighting back and speaking

49:20

up for policy and liberation. So

49:23

if you're worried about speaking up, like what I would

49:25

say is first, there's a way to be strategic about

49:27

it. Speaking up for

49:29

Palestinian rights, I'm gonna get like fired right away,

49:31

but also the more of us that speak up

49:33

truly, the more power and influence we have and

49:36

almost support for Palestinian liberation, like make

49:38

no mistake has become mainstream. Ignore

49:41

some of these media outlets, but I feel like even

49:44

when you look at the polls and all of us here

49:46

and like when you look at the protests and the millions

49:48

and millions of people around the world in the United States

49:50

just like flooded into the streets and

49:52

it's not limited to a certain background, you

49:54

realize that we, again, support for

49:57

Palestine has become mainstream. It's just a

49:59

matter of. of like all of us taking that

50:01

step and like speaking up. Even

50:03

for me personally, like I was told, don't

50:06

speak up, like you're gonna get fired from your job

50:08

and then I got fired from my job. And like,

50:10

don't talk about how you got fired from your job.

50:12

It's gonna ruin your chance of long term. And then

50:15

I like went media public and pursued a lawsuit. And

50:17

again, I say all of this because I did a

50:19

lot of thought and I realized this is

50:21

like, we have to set a precedent for our

50:23

people and that they can't pick at us one

50:25

by one. So for all students,

50:28

everybody going through this right now and

50:30

know that you have an army at your back, like truly

50:33

the support that I've gotten in the last couple

50:35

of weeks. Yeah, and I'm sure you

50:37

agree since I've gotten public is just

50:40

all a devastation, all the fear that comes

50:42

with being docked or fired is

50:44

like nothing compared to the love and support

50:47

you feel by like your community. And when

50:49

I say your community, I mean like all

50:51

of us here. Yeah, like people that are

50:53

on the side of like truth and

50:55

justice. I agree. And it's

50:58

like a very powerful illustration

51:01

of the limits of corporate

51:04

diversity that Rina was

51:07

literally a diversity scholarship

51:09

or diversity fellow. But

51:12

it turns out the only diversity

51:14

they're interested in is an aesthetic

51:17

one, right? The second that

51:19

diversity extends to an

51:21

opinion that is challenging the

51:23

sort of elite status

51:26

quo vocally. I

51:29

wouldn't even say publicly since it was

51:31

to a private student listserv, but

51:33

just sort of

51:36

out there a little bit, that commitment

51:38

to diversity is gone. Exactly. And

51:41

all of a sudden any

51:43

challenging viewpoint is violence, right?

51:46

Like actual threatening

51:49

speech, apparently. Yeah. Like

51:52

the ostensible benefit of diversity is

51:55

in fact different viewpoints. Now,

51:57

like for big law firms, obviously it's

51:59

more. like the pamphlet

52:02

fucking shot of a

52:04

diverse team of lawyers that they can

52:07

send to American Lawyer

52:09

magazine or whatever and advertise to

52:12

incoming students that they're like maybe

52:14

a place that's a little bit

52:17

more open-minded than your average law

52:19

firm or whatever. As

52:21

soon as someone with a unique

52:23

perspective due to their diversity speaks

52:26

up, they get squashed because

52:28

it's not something that the law firms are actually

52:31

interested in. They're doing PR.

52:33

Right. They want a certain kind of

52:35

minority. I think we

52:37

didn't fit that. Yeah.

52:40

Right. You did not and good for you.

52:42

Jen, on your case, you brought a legal action here, which

52:45

makes your situation a little bit unique.

52:48

Can you tell us about that a bit, where it

52:50

stands and what you're looking to get out of it?

52:52

Yeah. Besides money. That

52:55

would be nice. I can't

52:57

lie. So

53:00

this happened to me. I was fired officially on

53:02

October 22nd. And

53:04

so I sat with this and I kind of

53:06

just like was processing and thinking about

53:08

my next steps. And I really thought about pursuing a

53:10

lawsuit for a while and talked to

53:12

a lot of different employment attorneys. But I realized, again,

53:15

this is something that I needed to do

53:17

to set a precedent that law firms can't

53:19

just like target us for our background, our

53:21

political opinion without accountability. Like it was insane

53:23

that it's taken honestly this long for us

53:25

to kind of like push back and be

53:27

more on the offensive. Because since I've gone

53:29

public with my story, like I mean it

53:32

when I say I've received dozens

53:34

of messages about people who have had

53:36

their offers rescinded, have also been box

53:38

or fired. This is not exclusive to

53:40

me, but a lot of other people can't

53:43

go on public because again, they also have

53:45

their own financial situation in which they need

53:47

another job, which I do too. But

53:50

like, we'll figure that out later. So

53:54

in terms of the lawsuit, we filed the

53:56

EEOC with the state. So once

53:58

that investigation is over, we... plan on filing

54:01

in federal court official discrimination claim along

54:03

with other claims as well. My

54:05

co-counsel on the case is CARE

54:08

Council on American-Hispanic Relations and

54:10

the Rima Capitan which is a partner at the

54:12

Rima Capitan Law. This is probably going to be

54:14

a longer, longer struggle but the

54:16

support that we've had around this and people

54:19

that are like really willing to support in

54:21

whatever way possible, they're like whatever you need,

54:23

like whatever campaigns you need has been really

54:25

nice and hopefully this could be like a

54:28

longer term precedent not only for me

54:30

but for all of those. Again, I have friends

54:32

in big law right now and I'm like listen,

54:34

I'm doing this for y'all so that you're not

54:36

called into a meeting next week

54:38

and like interrogated about your social media posts

54:40

and your background so that's where we're at

54:43

right now with the lawsuit. And

54:45

just to explain, Janan, a lot of our

54:47

listeners are law students, young lawyers and people

54:49

who don't have a relation to the law

54:51

at all or don't work in legal spaces.

54:54

So you file a complaint with the EEOC,

54:56

say that you win. What is the result?

54:58

What are you seeking? Yeah, for sure.

55:01

So first, the EEOC is

55:03

like an investigation again that goes through

55:05

mediation and then depending on that of

55:07

filing a federal court which we plan

55:09

on doing as well. So

55:11

in terms of what we're seeking,

55:14

obviously like financial reparations

55:16

but also like setting a precedent

55:19

and that like this Foley can't continue to do this. And again,

55:21

this is not the first time that Foley has done this. There's

55:24

a case back in 2008 post 9-11

55:26

in which Hassan won a case against

55:28

Foley for discriminating against him for his

55:31

identity post 9-11. So Foley really

55:33

has a pattern of this and like in

55:35

order to set precedent and to make sure

55:37

they're taking like long term steps which we're

55:39

working with them on through either mediation or

55:41

in the settlement as well. Yeah,

55:43

we're just hoping that this lawsuit will have

55:45

long term strategies for Foley and other big

55:47

law firms to implement to make sure that

55:50

they're not doing this to other associates as

55:52

well. They're not tokenizing minorities, right?

55:54

So we talked about diversity is not only

55:57

about like the statement that you

55:59

have on your website or what

56:01

you're advertising for law students.

56:03

But it's true diversity of diversity in

56:06

political opinions, diversity in backgrounds,

56:09

and what that looks like in truly having a

56:11

welcoming environment for minorities. So that's

56:13

something I hope that law

56:15

firms can take seriously with this law firm

56:17

and develop unique strategies and towards. I hope you

56:19

win a lot of money. I hope so. I

56:22

believe associate salaries just went up. So

56:24

your lost wages are increasing by the

56:26

day. I

56:31

just wanted to add one thing as

56:33

a current law student is

56:35

that I think it's really important for

56:38

law schools to encourage critical

56:41

thinking and not dictate opinions

56:43

to their students or say

56:45

like, or put words in

56:47

their mouths, frankly, especially

56:49

because we come to law school to be

56:51

advocates in whatever way that means. I mean,

56:54

whether you're a big law attorney or public

56:56

interest or whatever, you still come to school.

56:59

You spend a lot of money to become

57:01

a good advocate for your own beliefs, for

57:03

the beliefs of your clients. And so I

57:05

think that this idea that there is a

57:08

limit to who I can express solidarity with is

57:12

really harmful. And I've had law students coming up to

57:15

me asking me, what

57:17

is that like for you right now? And

57:19

I think it is really harmful because I

57:21

never want to discourage people from joining this

57:23

profession, especially people who look like me who

57:26

hold similar identities to me. It is

57:28

hard to tell them with a straight

57:30

face that your legal education prepares you

57:32

to be an advocate in this moment

57:34

because it seems like only some advocates

57:36

are worth training, worth bringing up

57:39

at these institutions. But I say all that

57:41

to say, don't let that stop you. And

57:43

I gain my critical thinking skills not because

57:46

of the institution I attend, but despite it.

57:48

So if you come with the intentions of

57:50

being an advocate, you will leave with

57:52

the skills of being an advocate, regardless of where

57:54

you attend. I

57:57

think the last thing I would add, that I didn't mention.

58:00

But of course we alluded to, I just want to

58:02

make it crystal clear that our incidents

58:04

and the things that we're talking about today is not

58:07

exclusive to us, but it's really part of

58:09

this broader pattern of attacks we are seeing

58:11

against people who speak up for Palestinian rights

58:14

and share views that are critical of Israel, right? Even

58:17

for me, I live in Chicago from the

58:19

stabbing of six-year-old, well, yeah, if I knew

58:21

him, he was literally six years old, stabbed

58:23

26 times. Our fathers knew each other,

58:25

like he's one of our community members. So

58:28

the shooting of three students in Vermont,

58:30

again, the firing and doxing of students

58:32

and employees. It's clear that

58:35

the US's foreign policy is responsible

58:37

for this very dangerous environment that

58:39

has been created against Palestinians and

58:41

those who speak up for Palestinian

58:43

rights. Palestine legal

58:45

itself, and again, we're both represented by

58:47

Palestine legal to some degree, has

58:50

reported over 800 incidents since

58:52

October 7th of people being doxed,

58:54

fired, or just repressed in general

58:56

for their views on Palestinian rights.

59:00

So although, again, this is like a very critical time,

59:02

I would just really like to point out to law

59:04

students, it's a very scary time. But

59:08

just remember what the point of doxing

59:10

is and firing. Literally, the point of doxing and firing

59:12

is to make you feel isolated, to make you feel scared. But

59:16

just know that you are not isolated. There

59:18

are millions of people across the US that

59:20

have similar views, but unfortunately, these institutions that

59:22

are trying to make you feel isolated and

59:24

helpless and trying to instill fear in your

59:26

heart. So we

59:29

have so many resources out there for students

59:31

and for employees. I would encourage everybody to

59:33

reach out to Palestine legal or different

59:36

organizations that we have currently defending us. And

59:39

again, right now we're seeing the

59:41

resumption of the bombardment of Isra'il on Gaza.

59:44

So it makes it even more urgent now

59:46

than ever for us to speak up. And

59:49

no state should ever be above criticism. And that's

59:51

especially true when the state is carrying out genocide

59:53

as we speak. But we're

59:55

in this together and hopefully we'll see a free Palestine

59:57

soon. We keep us

59:59

safe. right? We keep us safe.

1:00:03

Okay, Jenan and Reena, I feel so inspired.

1:00:05

I feel so proud of you too and

1:00:07

everything that you're doing. Thank you for giving

1:00:10

us your time. Thanks for talking with us.

1:00:12

We appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you guys. Thank

1:00:14

you all so much. This has been a

1:00:16

great conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much. All

1:00:23

right, folks. In a couple of

1:00:25

days, we're dropping our annual giving

1:00:28

episode. We've chosen some organizations, we

1:00:30

think, to use some of your

1:00:32

attention and perhaps money if you've

1:00:34

got it. And then you take

1:00:37

a little bit of a break, a few weeks off for

1:00:39

us. Not because we're being

1:00:41

lazy. Not because we're celebrating

1:00:43

the holidays. Okay, we're not. Instead,

1:00:47

we will be working

1:00:49

on 5.4's most audacious

1:00:52

project yet. We

1:00:54

are doing a multi-part series starting

1:00:57

in mid-January or so on

1:01:00

the Federalist Society. The organization

1:01:02

you all know and love,

1:01:05

the disgusting perverts who

1:01:07

have planted their friends

1:01:09

on the Supreme Court and run

1:01:12

the conservative legal

1:01:14

movements operation

1:01:17

from the top down. Yeah, and are your

1:01:19

biggest annoyance in law school currently? That's

1:01:21

right. The worst kid in your

1:01:23

1L class. Yes. And

1:01:25

the people who have made sure that ending

1:01:29

American democracy is not a

1:01:32

public position that will

1:01:34

get you fired from your job.

1:01:36

That's right. Right. That's a cool

1:01:38

academic discussion to have amongst high-minded

1:01:40

folks. That's right. We'll be talking

1:01:42

about the history of the organization.

1:01:44

We're conducting some interviews with experts

1:01:46

on the organization. We're

1:01:48

also conducting some interviews with ex-Federalist Society

1:01:50

members. Get the inside scoop on what

1:01:53

these little freaks are up to. It's going

1:01:55

to be good. Get excited. And then we'll

1:01:57

be talking about how to beat them. Besides

1:02:01

podcasting, which is the

1:02:03

number one strategy. All

1:02:06

right folks, thanks for listening. We'll see you

1:02:08

later. Bye. Bye, y'all. Five

1:02:11

to four is presented by Prolog Projects.

1:02:14

Rachel Ward is our producer. Leon

1:02:17

Nayfok and Andrew Parsons provide editorial

1:02:19

support. And our researcher

1:02:21

is Jonathan DeBruin. Peter

1:02:24

Murphy designed our website,

1:02:26

fivefourpod.com. Our artwork

1:02:29

is by Taddie Blanks at

1:02:31

ChipsNY. And our theme song

1:02:33

is by Spatial Industries.