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500-500. That's

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audible.com/Wunderepod or text

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Wunderepod to 500-500. Over

1:48

the years, we've reported on the more

1:50

than half a million U.S. servicemen and

1:53

women who served in Iraq and Afghanistan

1:55

and are suffering from post-traumatic stress

1:58

disorder. I couldn't even make sense. of

2:00

it, but... Tonight, you'll hear

2:02

PTSD can be

2:04

contagious. The worst of it was

2:06

in seventh grade. I kind

2:09

of decided that my family would be

2:11

better off without me here. On

2:16

the banks of the Rhone River by a tranquil

2:18

city park sits the

2:20

highly secure global headquarters of

2:23

Interpol. 196 countries

2:25

are members of Interpol and

2:27

share important intelligence about worldwide

2:29

criminal activity, but there

2:32

are questions about why some of

2:34

those countries are still part of

2:36

its alliance. I'm just trying to understand

2:38

how a country that is

2:40

being investigated for mass murder can

2:43

be a member in good standing

2:45

with Interpol. This

2:50

is a Tasmanian tiger, or

2:52

was a Tasmanian tiger. Most

2:54

scientists believe the apex predator to

2:56

be extinct, but like Bigfoot and

2:58

the Loch Ness Monster, plenty of

3:00

people believe otherwise, that this tiger

3:02

is still roaming this beautiful island.

3:05

And then all of a sudden, was

3:07

there a mighty hail like this? I'm

3:13

Leslie Starr. I'm Bill Whittaker.

3:15

I'm Anderson Cooper. I'm Sharon

3:18

Alfonsi. I'm John Wertheim. I'm

3:20

Cecilia Vega. I'm Scott Pelli.

3:22

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5:17

Two million Americans served in

5:19

Afghanistan and Iraq, and

5:21

at least 600,000 have been diagnosed with

5:24

post-traumatic stress disorder. For

5:27

the most part, the U.S. is

5:29

doing better, recognizing and treating these

5:31

wounded warriors. But less

5:33

well-known are millions more

5:36

who are in need but remain

5:38

hidden. They are the children

5:40

living with injured veterans. In

5:43

a profound sense, PTSD can

5:45

be contagious. Many

5:47

children have become caregivers,

5:49

confronting depression and fear.

5:52

And tonight, you will hear that the

5:54

stress can be so great it

5:57

can lead to attempts of suicide. Over

8:01

the years, he tried to shield his dad

8:03

from triggers that set him off, and

8:06

shield his sisters from the emotional

8:08

trauma. I was just worried about a lot

8:10

of different things, things

8:12

that kids, I guess, at

8:15

that age should not be worried about. And

8:20

it kind of evolved

8:23

into kind of

8:25

like a helplessness. He

8:28

was becoming almost like my husband. There

8:30

were times where he wouldn't be able to go to

8:32

school, because he was

8:35

so stressed internally from everything happening, and

8:37

I don't think he knew how to

8:40

process it and understand it. I

8:42

knew Christopher was starting to

8:44

struggle with the weight of it all. The

8:48

weight grew as Chris turned 12.

8:52

The worst of it was in seventh grade. I

8:55

think I had kind

8:57

of decided that my family

8:59

would be better off without

9:01

me here. I

9:04

remember looking back on those days, it was just chaos

9:07

all the time. And

9:14

I remember

9:21

taking one

9:26

of the dog's leashes upstairs and

9:30

tied one into the bunk bed that we had,

9:32

my little brother's bunk bed, and

9:35

I tried hanging myself,

9:37

and it

9:40

was working. And

9:43

my mom walked in on me, kind of, and

9:45

I think I was kind of about

9:48

to pass out. I was kind of

9:52

losing consciousness. Walking in

9:54

and seeing what was happening to him and what

9:57

he was really struggling with, I

9:59

knew I ever... problems

12:00

for the children. There

12:02

are 2.3 million military

12:05

children living in the homes of wounded warriors.

12:08

One of them is Elizabeth Cornelius.

12:11

And I just need to make sure everybody's okay,

12:13

because if my mom isn't okay, everything's

12:16

going to just fall. Elizabeth

12:18

has helped her mom Ariel as

12:20

long as she can remember. Even

12:23

before she was born, her

12:25

dad brought terrifying memories home

12:27

from a combat tour in

12:29

Iraq. Ariel told

12:32

us his first episode came

12:34

with a pizza delivery. The

12:36

delivery man came up to the door and knocked on

12:38

the door. And, you know,

12:40

my husband didn't expect it, and he had

12:43

an immediate flashback and threw me to

12:45

the floor, and was yelling, get down, get

12:47

down, get down, get down. Even

12:50

with that, he deployed to Iraq

12:52

again in 2007 and to Afghanistan

12:57

in 2011. Ariel

12:59

is a schoolteacher. Her

13:01

husband is completely disabled by

13:03

PTSD. He can't work

13:05

and wasn't up to speaking with us. 17-year-old

13:10

Elizabeth has become something of a co-parent

13:12

to a brother and a

13:14

sister at home in Montana, shielding

13:16

them, she told us, from

13:18

episodes and arguments. I

13:20

just try to shield them as much as I can, as my mom did for me, and

13:22

she did it for a very long time. A

13:25

lot of it falls on myself, and then she

13:27

goes out and helps pick up the pieces that

13:29

I can't. Her

13:31

husband's worst crisis came

13:34

on the anniversary of an attack

13:36

that killed several of his fellow

13:38

Marines. Oh, gosh. He

13:42

was extremely suicidal because of all the memories that came

13:44

back. He

13:48

was barely hanging on, and

13:50

it's just that regret. It's the

13:54

flow of memories that come in. Extremely

13:57

suicidal, but Ariel found beds.

14:00

for inpatient mental health care

14:02

can be scarce. You

14:05

know, Helena is an hour and a half to

14:07

two hours away. Casper, Wyoming is

14:09

eight plus hours away and they

14:11

didn't have a bed. We then looked at

14:13

Idaho, they didn't have a bed. We looked at

14:15

Oregon, they didn't have a bed. We still ended

14:17

up having to wake three weeks before he could

14:20

get the support he needed in

14:22

Puget Sound, Washington. And

14:24

you know, that's 10 hours away. Three

14:27

weeks during this time, you felt

14:29

like he could commit suicide. At

14:31

any point in time. And

14:35

we couldn't get help. Chasing

14:37

care in a crisis and

14:39

navigating government health insurance raised

14:42

stress for everyone. It's

14:44

rough on her, because she's been on

14:46

the phone for hours and

14:48

hours reading pamphlets, trying

14:51

to find us help. In

14:54

2018, Elizabeth Dole watched President

14:57

Trump sign a law that

14:59

expanded VA benefits for caregivers

15:01

of the severely disabled. It

15:04

offers a stipend, access to

15:06

health insurance and counseling. The

15:09

Dole Foundation studies found that at

15:11

least 100 other organizations are

15:15

providing support, which now

15:17

include the Dole Foundation itself. Steve

15:20

Schwab is the CEO. How

15:22

does the foundation help these children? One

15:25

of the first things that we do is we offer

15:27

emergency financial support to anybody who needs it. Second

15:30

is peer support. We're building

15:32

a first of its kind peer support

15:34

model that will link these children with

15:36

other children like them for the first

15:38

time in their lives. We

15:40

offer on the ground, respite care, backup

15:42

care in the home to provide

15:44

a trained healthcare worker to come in and back up

15:46

that mom or dad so that that family

15:49

can take a break together. One

15:51

Dole Foundation partner called Our

15:53

Military Kids paid fees

15:56

to help keep the Cornelius children

15:58

in sports. in

20:00

January for all its good work, Interpol

20:02

has been accused of doing the dirty

20:04

work of some of its more repressive

20:07

members. Russia, for one, has

20:09

used Interpol to track down people who

20:11

have run afoul of President Vladimir Putin.

20:14

Last year, we visited Interpol in

20:16

Lyon, France, and found

20:19

an institution trying to navigate

20:21

the treacherous path between policing

20:23

and politics. On

20:27

the banks of the Rhone River by a

20:29

tranquil city park sits the

20:31

highly secure global headquarters of Interpol.

20:35

For the past decade, it's been led

20:37

by Jurgen Stock, a former vice president

20:39

of the German Federal Police. The

20:42

purpose of Interpol is still the same,

20:44

connecting police for a safer world. As

20:47

Interpol's secretary general, Stock manages

20:50

operations in Lyon and regional

20:52

offices on five continents. Nine

20:56

hundred employees work at the Lyon

20:58

headquarters. Many are police

21:00

officers on loan from member countries

21:02

chosen for their expertise. They

21:04

don't carry guns or make arrests,

21:07

but rather collect and share information

21:09

with law enforcement agencies around the

21:11

globe. Interpol also has

21:13

bureaus in each member country,

21:15

including one in Washington, D.C.,

21:17

managed by the Departments of

21:19

Justice and Homeland Security. So

21:22

what is the main mission of

21:24

Interpol? I would describe

21:26

it as an information broker. We

21:29

collect, we invite member countries to

21:31

share information, we do analysis, we

21:33

enrich the information. So Interpol's information

21:36

is leading to arrests of high-level

21:38

criminals, murderers, drug

21:40

traffickers, those who are abusing children all

21:42

around the world. Every single day that

21:44

happens. Last year,

21:47

Interpol coordinated a crackdown on

21:49

human trafficking and prostitution. Operation

21:52

Global Chain that led to 212

21:54

arrests in 22 countries and the release of more than 1,400 persecution.

24:01

But the vetting is not foolproof.

24:04

Some of Interpol's more repressive

24:06

members take advantage of red

24:08

notices, using fabricated charges to

24:10

locate, detain and extradite people

24:12

they want to get their

24:14

hands on, like political dissidents

24:16

or innocent people who've merely

24:18

displeased powerful officials. Like

24:21

any information-sharing system, the information that you get out

24:23

is only as good as the information that you

24:25

put in. Police Davies

24:28

on the left and Ben

24:30

Keith are barristers, British lawyers,

24:32

who help people accused of

24:34

crimes to navigate Interpol's complex

24:36

bureaucracy. Our clients come

24:38

to us and say, we've been

24:40

accused in a particular state of

24:42

a criminal offense which has been

24:44

fabricated for political reasons. And Interpol's

24:46

just taking this at face value,

24:48

issued a red notice. Both

24:51

concede Interpol does a lot of good. And

24:54

the information that you get out is only as good as the

24:56

information that you put in. Police

24:59

Davies on the left and

25:01

Ben Keith are barristers, British

25:03

lawyers, who help people accused

25:05

of crimes to navigate Interpol's

25:07

complex bureaucracy. Our

25:09

clients come to us and say,

25:11

we've been accused in a particular

25:13

state of a criminal offense which

25:15

has been fabricated for political reasons.

25:17

And Interpol's just taking this at

25:19

face value, issued a red notice.

25:22

Both concede Interpol does a lot of

25:25

good, despite a yearly budget of $170

25:27

million, which is

25:30

about the size of the Omaha Police

25:32

Department. Their constitution says that they are

25:34

meant to believe their member states. And

25:37

so when a member state, Russia, China,

25:39

Turkey, whose rule of law is

25:43

often non-existent, say to

25:45

them a particular person is wanted for a criminal

25:47

offense, they are bound

25:49

by the constitution to believe them. Does

25:51

Interpol view all the information that comes

25:53

out of all of them as equal?

25:55

This is one of our main frustrations,

25:57

is that Interpol don't penalise.

26:00

countries properly. They want everyone in

26:02

their club. They want everyone in

26:04

the club. When a country is

26:06

clearly egregiously breaching the rules and

26:08

manipulating the system on a gross

26:11

scale, they don't suspend them. They've

26:13

not suspended Russia. As a Russia is

26:15

still an active member of Interpol. Russia

26:17

accounts for nearly half of the

26:19

red notices Interpol makes public. According

26:22

to a Russian police official, its Interpol

26:24

bureau in Moscow helped arrest and extradite

26:26

more than 100 criminals in 2021 and

26:28

in 2022 helped nab the founder of

26:31

the world's largest

26:36

dark-net criminal marketplace called

26:38

Hydra. But some of

26:41

the information Russia gives Interpol is

26:43

suspect. Members of Congress,

26:45

human rights groups and the European

26:47

Union have labeled Russia a serial

26:49

abuser of red notices. So Russia

26:51

is widely viewed as being fairly

26:53

brazen in its attempts to manipulate

26:55

the system. The famous example that

26:57

we often talk about is is

27:00

Bill Browder. Bill Browder

27:02

is a London-based American-born

27:05

financier. He made his fortune

27:07

in Russia but has spent the last 11

27:09

years on the run from President

27:12

Vladimir Putin after he

27:14

and his lawyer Sergei Magnitsky

27:16

exposed corruption by Russian government

27:19

officials. Magnitsky was arrested

27:21

and died after being beaten

27:23

in a Moscow prison. Browder

27:26

was convicted in absentia on

27:28

suspect fraud charges. The Kremlin

27:30

turned to Interpol to bring

27:32

him in. So how many

27:34

times by your count has

27:37

Russia tried to arrest you by

27:39

way of Interpol? Eight times. I

27:43

must hold the Guinness Book of World

27:45

Records for the number of times they've

27:47

tried to abuse Interpol. His

27:49

closest call came in 2018 when

27:52

he was visiting Spain. I opened

27:54

the door of the hotel and outside the

27:57

door just about to knock is the manager of the hotel.

28:00

two uniformed officers from the Spanish

28:02

police. I pulled out my passport,

28:05

I handed to one of the

28:07

two police officers, and he said, you're under

28:09

arrest. And I said, what for? And

28:11

he said, Interpol, Russia. The

28:14

hotel manager told him to collect his

28:16

things from the bedroom. Once

28:18

out of sight, Browder grabbed his phone

28:20

and sent out this tweet. At

28:23

the time, I had about 100,000 followers, and

28:25

I tweeted out, urgent, being arrested

28:27

in Madrid, Spain right now. That was quick thinking.

28:29

This is not the first time I had this

28:31

worry. They've been chasing me with Interpol for a

28:34

long time. And so I'm sitting in the back

28:36

of the police car, and because they hadn't taken

28:38

away my phone, I took a picture of the

28:40

back of their heads. He

28:42

sent this picture in a second urgent

28:44

tweet, in the back of

28:46

the Spanish police car, going to the station

28:49

on the Russian arrest warrant. What

28:51

were you hoping to accomplish? I'm hoping to wake the whole

28:53

world up to the fact that I'm being arrested. I didn't

28:55

want to be slipped

28:57

into the back of a

28:59

Russian jet and sent off

29:02

without anyone knowing where I was. What did you think

29:04

was happening, or was going

29:06

to happen? If I sent to Russia, I would

29:08

be killed. No question about it. While

29:11

Browder stayed locked in a holding

29:13

cell, his tweets went around the

29:15

world. The chief of police comes back

29:17

with a translator and says, we've

29:20

just gotten off the phone with

29:22

Interpol general secretariat in Lyon. The

29:25

warrant is no longer valid. You're

29:27

free to go. Wow. As

29:29

a result of your tweets? As a result of the tweets.

29:32

Are you fearful that

29:35

this could happen again? Every time I cross

29:37

the border, my heart starts beating a

29:39

little bit faster. We

29:41

asked Jurgen Stock why, after all

29:43

this, Russia hasn't been

29:46

suspended from Interpol, especially considering

29:48

the UN is investigating Russia

29:50

for war crimes in Ukraine.

29:53

I'm just trying to understand how a country

29:55

that is being investigated for mass

29:57

murder can be a member of the UN.

30:00

in good standing with Interpol.

30:02

Interpol introduced some

30:04

measures when the conflict started to

30:07

avoid any political

30:09

abuse of our systems, but we

30:12

also decided to keep, let's

30:14

say, the channels of information open.

30:17

Russia is hardly the only country to use

30:19

Interpol to do its dirty work. Bahrain,

30:22

for example, used Interpol to nab

30:24

a professional soccer player, an outspoken

30:26

critic of the government at the

30:28

Bangkok Airport in 2018. He

30:31

spent two and a half months in a Thai

30:34

prison. China used a

30:36

red notice to arrest this Chinese Uyghur

30:38

activist in Morocco in 2021. He

30:41

remains in prison awaiting extradition. And

30:44

Qatar issued a red notice for this Scottish engineer

30:46

in 2022 over a disputed $5,000 bank loan.

30:52

He spent two months in an Iraqi

30:54

prison. All of these

30:56

red notices were eventually rescinded, but

30:59

not before lives were upended. I

31:02

don't know how to characterize the

31:04

people who get caught up in

31:06

this. Are they collateral damage? No,

31:08

I would never call that collateral damage. And

31:11

we are investing all we can

31:13

to ensure that every piece of

31:15

information in our databases are compliant

31:17

with our rules and regulations. But

31:20

you know, and we have heard of

31:23

incidents where people are

31:26

languishing in jail because

31:28

of erroneous information that was

31:31

sent out by Interpol.

31:33

I'm not saying that the system is

31:35

perfect. We see wrong decisions on a

31:37

national level, and we have seen wrong

31:39

decisions also in Interpol. That

31:41

is correct, a small number of cases. Interpol

31:44

admits in 2022, 304 of nearly 24,000 wanted

31:46

person alerts were found to violate its

31:53

rules and were eventually denied or

31:55

deleted. The organization declined

31:58

to share which countries were the

32:00

worst offenders. There are

32:02

well-documented cases against Russia,

32:05

China, Turkey, United Arab

32:07

Emirates for repeatedly

32:10

abusing the Interpol notices.

32:13

Why not name and

32:16

shame these countries? Because

32:18

we believe this is not in the

32:20

interest of international police cooperation. You need to

32:22

have a platform where information is being collected

32:24

from different parts of the world where criminal

32:27

groups are operating. We want to

32:29

provide a channel even between states that have

32:31

diplomatic difficulties or even in

32:33

conflict. Our decision is not

32:36

to police a member country in terms of their

32:38

human rights agenda. That's not our

32:40

role as a technical police organization. That's

32:42

not justice, though. It's not justice. We

32:44

get it right most of the time.

32:46

British barristers Rhys Davies and Ben Keith

32:48

say if Interpol is to survive another

32:50

100 years, it must

32:53

learn to police itself. We

32:56

are concerned about the rule of law and human rights and

32:58

Interpol are concerned about trying to catch people

33:00

who are allegedly criminals. A load of innocent people get

33:02

caught up in the middle. It feels

33:04

a bit like that's the sort of price they're

33:06

prepared to pay for catching the bad guys. And

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