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to catch up on the latest

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episodes without the ads. Hello,

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I'm David Baudill. I'm

0:31

Saeed Avasi and this is a Muslim and

0:34

a Jew Go There. And

0:36

this week, well in a bit, we're going to

0:38

be talking about Iran and Australia, which

0:40

sounds like a dull World Cup fixture. But

0:42

no, we're going to be talking about Iran

0:44

attacking Israel and the feeling that might lead

0:46

to World War Three and terrible

0:48

violence happening in Australia and how that

0:50

was misinterpreted over here. But

0:53

before we get there, there's been some news just

0:55

in, hasn't there, Saeed? Yes,

0:57

there has. The High Court

0:59

has just issued a judgment

1:01

in the Michaela School case.

1:03

And just to recap, this is

1:06

the Michaela School in Wembley, where

1:08

a Muslim student had taken the

1:10

school to court, challenging the school's

1:13

ban on prayer. And

1:15

the judgment that has just come in is

1:18

that the school did not

1:20

discriminate against this child and

1:22

that the head teacher's decision

1:24

was considered by the court

1:26

to be proportionate.

1:29

So this raises some fascinating

1:31

questions about the

1:33

space for religion and

1:36

religious practice within state

1:38

secular schools. Yeah,

1:40

I mean, there's a lot going on

1:42

with it. Catherine Burblesey, is that her

1:45

name, Catherine? Birballsing, if

1:47

you pronounce it properly. Birballsing

1:50

is quite a big figure on social

1:53

media and in the press. She's become

1:55

known as running the country's strictest school,

1:57

Michaela. Pupils are not allowed to Who.

2:00

He. Between lessons when they walk in the

2:03

corridor and they have to have rote

2:05

learning so it's and she's very keen

2:07

on what she would call conservative values

2:09

like yourself side us which he says

2:11

with a small seats but ah statement

2:13

that she made today about winning this

2:16

case I think said the word conservative

2:18

values the phrase. At least twice

2:20

boss be three times and she also finished

2:22

it. Was it it might be laugh out

2:24

loud by say god save the King's Allah

2:26

Guess it made me laugh and I apologize

2:28

because it was like weirdly nineteen thirties but

2:30

also because you've just been talking for this

2:32

whole thing about how God isn't meant to

2:34

be a thing at your school and now

2:36

you've mentioned him. I saw her, said that

2:38

despite below. Is unusual. I mean

2:41

she's been around as pumpkins, the

2:43

conservative party and conservative political circles

2:45

for a while. She's an interesting

2:47

character s and what she argues

2:50

is that having this incredibly. Unusual

2:52

but strict routine in schools. Means

2:54

that the school. Performs very

2:57

well. And one of

2:59

the things she talks about is

3:01

making sure the all the kids

3:03

don't have any saying that divides

3:05

them and that this should be

3:07

this kind of cohesive community in

3:09

schools, which at least in theory

3:11

sounds great, but in practice has

3:13

been interpreted in some really unusual

3:15

ways which raises questions about how

3:17

much power and authority a single

3:19

person like a head teacher can

3:21

have in a school in setting

3:23

what is and isn't allowed as

3:25

far as religious practice is concerned.

3:27

So. For example, you're allowed to

3:29

wear a turban. In this school

3:31

you're allowed to wear a he

3:33

job. You're allowed to wear other

3:35

religious symbols so you know, Hindu

3:37

religious symbols, Jewish religious symbols. Nobody's

3:40

allowed to eat meat so ever

3:42

be has to follow a strict

3:44

vegetarian. Diet. Reason

3:46

that is that Party A So

3:48

that the standard that's not because

3:50

they are pro vegetarians is because

3:52

they're trying to create a menu

3:54

that no particular religion would object

3:56

to. I think guys are trying

3:58

foster a kind of so. It

4:00

whereby the various different cultures and there

4:02

are lots of different ones at that

4:04

school. Or all okay with the food

4:06

and vegetarian who diseases want to do that with?

4:09

I think that's what's going on. I. Think. It's

4:11

all about cohesion although it. What

4:13

was also reported was that during

4:15

the month of fasting during Ramadan

4:17

pupils who were sustained to sit

4:19

at the table. During lunch

4:21

time. With. Other pupils who were

4:24

eating and drinking and just have sit. Down watch

4:26

them because of I thought from creates the have

4:28

a nice to so that was have to one

4:30

of the reporters who was reporting on this today

4:32

and I just. Found that are really unusual

4:34

citizens as unusual as sounds weird by have

4:37

to say to support my calls on the

4:39

table of sort of with her To some

4:41

it's have a know as a tube as

4:43

an atheist and as a sort of sex

4:46

that atheists person. I'm kind of with her

4:48

because I think the religion in general even

4:50

though I went to a very orthodox Jewish

4:52

faith schools which was not helpful probably in

4:55

terms of my own personal psychological damage spot

4:57

not sure about the whole idea of religion

4:59

in schools. Having said that. I think

5:01

you have to be sensible. And. It seems

5:04

to me to be kids very hungry because

5:06

of their religion than they should be made

5:08

to say of what other people eat. That

5:10

would. Drive the math I would have thought.

5:12

Adding some meat. So I agree with

5:14

her as well. I agree with her

5:16

as a conservative because I do things

5:19

that quite a former conservative. Routine.

5:21

Within schools is better for the

5:23

learning experience and if what we

5:25

end up with is much better

5:27

behaved kids some way and with

5:29

better results, that's got to be

5:32

a positive and anything that brings

5:34

people together and create a sense

5:36

of unity among school is good.

5:38

The bit that I worry about

5:40

is how a single person can

5:42

become the arbiter of religiosity. Some

5:44

what this court's judgment route sais

5:46

is that we're going to need

5:48

this judgment to individual had teachers

5:50

and. That really relies upon the fact

5:52

that all I had teachers are going

5:54

to be incredibly measured and income save

5:56

and thoughtful and same but if we

5:59

me ball of. Power in one

6:01

person's hand and they make the decision

6:03

about a bits of religion they're gonna

6:05

allow in their school. That's

6:07

a really dangerous space to be because.

6:10

We. Have to have a clear understanding is good

6:12

either. We have a completely secular system like the

6:14

friend system which. We don't but we move

6:16

towards our system. Way to the All

6:18

Religion is barred from all state schools.

6:20

All we have a clear understanding of

6:23

what schools must accommodate. We can't do

6:25

it on a piecemeal base. Is based

6:27

upon the whims. And the wishes

6:29

of individual head. Teachers. are find that

6:31

would be disturbing with egregiously go the world to

6:34

other elements of this case for. Cari.

6:36

Porn. Is suggested

6:38

at least by the head teacher

6:40

is that it was disrupted. The.

6:43

Praying that's what see was suggesting. I'm

6:45

not saying that's true but that is

6:47

what he was say he was saying

6:49

that it wasn't just one people that

6:52

end up with thirty people's to tended

6:54

to put their blazers or create some

6:56

got a prayer mats outside in the

6:58

playground and her suggests was with. This

7:01

led to a situation where other people

7:03

so intimidated including other muslim peoples who

7:05

would not religious but felt you know

7:07

that made that they because they weren't

7:10

praying that may be that they felt

7:12

pay group. Pressure or whatever and

7:14

she refers to quite. Worrying

7:16

things types of intimidation to says that

7:18

one black teachers has was racially abused

7:21

and another teacher had a brick come

7:23

through the window of their house presumably

7:25

the suggested is low she's of much

7:27

he say this out loud from parents

7:30

all own people who felt that it

7:32

was islam a phobic of her to

7:34

be doing this. banning of the prayer

7:36

is that correct. I think that it's

7:38

is an interesting character and I said that right

7:41

at the beginning and you know I think all

7:43

of this kind of publicity is that the not

7:45

gonna do her any harm at but why do

7:47

think is a concern for me is rather than

7:49

kind of making this. Past. Know

7:52

about these individuals. what worries

7:54

me is what the consequences of this will

7:56

be for the state school system because what

7:58

she says in his statement today is, if

8:01

the pupils don't like what I'm doing at this

8:03

school, they can just go off and find another

8:05

school. So get lost if you don't like what

8:07

I'm doing, go find yourself another school. The worry

8:09

for me is that every head teacher took the

8:12

decision that, for example, nobody

8:15

could pray within school hours.

8:17

That effectively means that Muslim

8:19

pupils particularly, who obviously have

8:21

their five prayers a day

8:23

if they are religious, which

8:25

includes some of those times,

8:27

the during school times, are

8:29

being excluded from the state system. Because

8:31

if every head teacher did what Catherine

8:33

Birrebois Singh is doing, which is, if you don't

8:36

like it, lump it off you go, we

8:38

are effectively saying to pupils, well,

8:41

actually, if you think your religion is important

8:43

and you want to practice your religion and

8:45

five prayers a day is one

8:47

of the five pillars, it's not some kind of abstract part

8:50

of the faith, it's an integral part of the faith, then

8:52

there is no space for you within the state

8:55

system. And that decision is just going to be

8:57

made by a head teacher in each of

8:59

these schools. Yeah, I get that. I get

9:01

that you're worried about that. But I just want to drill

9:03

down on something which I said, which is, and I'm

9:06

just trying to think myself into

9:08

being a head teacher, where I

9:10

guess the most important thing is

9:12

overall happiness, overall cohesion, overall calmness

9:15

at a school. And I'm obviously not

9:17

a Muslim. So I'm going to ask you a question.

9:20

What I am actually is someone who knows

9:22

what it's like to be a non religious

9:24

Jew around religious Jews. So I

9:26

do know what it's like to be

9:28

someone who might feel that I'm somehow,

9:31

you know, being sinful, failing,

9:33

when I'm seeing people who are observant.

9:35

Do you think it is possibly true?

9:38

She did say this quite a lot,

9:40

that she felt that other Muslims who

9:42

were not as observant were feeling intimidated

9:44

by those Muslim children who did decide

9:46

to pray in the playground.

9:49

I can only give you my

9:51

own personal experience, David. And I

9:53

suppose I've never felt intimidated to

9:55

be religious or intimidated not to

9:57

be religious. But I Think for me,

9:59

the issue is. The precedent you said

10:01

when you are running a

10:04

public sector. Organisations and I felt

10:06

like we've become a much more

10:08

inclusive accommodating may sense this feels

10:10

like a weird backward step on.

10:12

I think that if a good

10:14

school is run by a good

10:16

leader who tries to make. The.

10:19

Widest possible accommodations so that the pupils

10:21

that they are teaching feel that they're

10:23

learning in an environment which sees them

10:26

and he has them and includes them

10:28

and values them. And actually that is

10:30

accommodation at the moment. The sixth formers

10:33

for example, who actually go of sides

10:35

at the school at the Mccain The

10:37

School and the Gone pray at their

10:40

Brent Civic Center. So in the past

10:42

there have been accommodations and I just

10:44

think it's sad. I mean look on

10:47

this particular case. in these particular individual.

10:49

School. It may well be that they

10:51

lose some pupils and other pupils who

10:53

aren't that bothered about praying will join

10:55

the school. My worry is that this

10:58

is a lot of power in the

11:00

hands of single leaders and single leaders

11:02

who could go off and start making

11:04

all sorts of my decisions and simply

11:06

create a space for some pupils. One.

11:09

Thing I do that was his again interested where

11:11

I think I don't know exactly where I sit

11:13

on the swan, even though my instincts. You.

11:16

Know that for education, religion

11:18

don't necessarily mix, but. I.

11:20

Found that the students statement as if you've

11:23

read it. Or. Found it very simplistic

11:25

because he was because I think it sounds

11:27

like a young person see says i don't

11:29

agree that it would be too hard for

11:31

the school to accommodate pupils who wish to

11:33

brain the lunch breaks. This is the be

11:35

I find movie says the school is very

11:37

well rum and generally very good. Have managed

11:39

to get everything the school doesn't we should

11:41

up. he was appraisers didn't probably just as

11:43

found his favor. Even though I lost I

11:45

still feel I did the right thing. I.

11:48

Tried my best to was tude was of

11:50

my religion and now of course my heart

11:52

goes out to that suitors even though of

11:54

other paul me thinks well I think the

11:56

head teacher is trying to do something secular

11:58

and I am he said. The Interest:

12:00

I think that statement from the pupil

12:02

is really powerful because I'm really proud

12:05

of the fact that she felt she

12:07

could assert her views and that she

12:09

believed in the court systems and she

12:12

was taking part in democracy. And I'm

12:14

also really pleased that actually, despite challenging

12:16

the school in this way, a younger

12:19

sibling is going to continue to go

12:21

to the Mccain the school as well.

12:23

He some ways it shows democracy in.

12:26

Action. I'm now wondering if when I was

12:28

a kid which is oversee two thousand years

12:30

ago going to my very Orthodox Jewish primary

12:33

school is my parents brought a case against

12:35

the school. Said David doesn't want to wear

12:37

a yarmulke or funny little. The cool to

12:39

sit sit silently. total best and he doesn't

12:42

want to eat kosher food is often disgusting.

12:44

We gotta go to court about it. whether

12:46

or not I would have one, I doubt

12:48

it in knots and seventy three. I.

12:51

Think the school would have said what the hell are you

12:53

doing a to school They're made of. He. The Ethics:

12:55

Yes, you will have an identity crisis.

12:57

that's true, but I think that is

12:59

to some extent Catherine. Purple things points

13:02

the other way round. Anyway, we're going

13:04

to talk about something. Of. A

13:06

good as I say local Thirty to be as

13:08

Wembley Square where our lives were going to buy

13:10

something much more global. Which. Is

13:12

a wrong Attacking Israel?

13:15

Easy and minutes to I'm gonna stop you

13:17

right there David were gonna disagree. Are we

13:19

aware of them? And Seventy Six as you. Said. Iran

13:21

attacking Israel. I would say

13:23

Iran responding to Israel's attack.

13:26

Well yeah I think be of like.

13:29

They. Feel attacked Israel during the same way

13:31

that I might be. Someone had said

13:33

that Israel responding to her masses attacked

13:35

when they attack to go Other bought

13:37

up a very punch me on the

13:39

nose and a punchy back I'm not

13:41

happy and you I'm responding Roy Carry

13:43

old. So never go

13:45

back to where they started with

13:47

says that on the first of

13:50

April. in the mix of everything

13:52

that's going on in Gaza, Israel

13:54

decided that it was going to

13:56

attack the Iranian consulate in that

13:59

the map. and seven

14:01

members of the Revolutionary Guard were killed in

14:03

that attack. And as

14:05

a result of that, Iran took the matter to

14:07

the United Nations. It asked

14:10

the United Nations to issue a

14:12

condemnation of that. Russia

14:14

raised that as a statement to the

14:16

United Nations Security Council. It was vetoed,

14:18

obviously, and it didn't

14:20

pass. Interestingly, the European Union

14:23

did condemn that attack. But

14:26

because it wasn't widely condemned, and it wasn't condemned

14:28

at the UN, Iran decided

14:30

that it was going to

14:32

respond to that because it

14:34

was, according to the Vienna

14:36

Convention, an attack on its

14:38

sovereignty by attacking a diplomatic

14:41

post. You might know,

14:43

David, that under the Vienna Convention,

14:45

diplomatic bags, diplomatic sites, diplomatic buildings,

14:48

diplomatic people are all protected and

14:50

are considered to be off-limits and

14:52

secret sent. Of course,

14:54

I knew that, especially diplomatic bags. I

14:57

really knew that. That all sorts of

14:59

attaché cases and handbags are, in fact,

15:01

sacrosanct under the Geneva Convention. A Vienna Convention, obviously,

15:04

I knew that. Are you in Vienna at the

15:06

moment? You should know that. I am actually. I'm

15:08

actually in Vienna at the moment. So look, well,

15:10

we might as well dig

15:12

into some of this stuff. It's

15:14

a very, very big conversation because it

15:16

involves the geopolitics of the whole region,

15:18

which are very complicated. I know a

15:21

little bit about Iran, partly through my

15:23

friend, Omid Jalili. The comedian who has

15:25

spent a lot of time recently, he's

15:27

in the British-Iranian, but he's also spent

15:29

a lot of time recently talking on

15:31

social media about some of the terrible

15:33

things going on in Iran, especially the

15:35

way that they're treating their women there.

15:37

But you began by responding very strongly

15:39

to me because I described it as

15:41

Iran attacking Israel without necessarily thinking

15:43

about that. And what that brings

15:45

up is something that I've read quite

15:47

a lot, which is, you know, why

15:49

did Israel hit that

15:51

Damascus embassy? And Either

15:54

they just did it because there

15:56

were members of the Iranian Revolutionary

15:58

Guard there. You may or

16:00

may not have been involved in sending also

16:03

has been are certainly would have been enemies

16:05

of the Israeli states and they just wanted

16:07

to kill them all. For those who would

16:09

always read Devious Nurse into the workings of

16:11

the Israeli government's they were trying to widen

16:14

the conflict in order to see you in

16:16

a draw attention away from Gaza in order

16:18

to make it clear perhaps to the Americans

16:20

knowing that around would respond that they have

16:23

to keep sending arms to Israel. That.

16:25

He the develop out. Says probably a

16:27

little bit of both as what's

16:29

interesting is that that that Israel

16:31

has always used as have other

16:33

countries this concept and targeted killing

16:36

extra judicial killings and it has

16:38

all that in a most of

16:40

the last few decades and in

16:42

fact the numbers Interesting They have

16:44

been going up so between two

16:46

thousand and two thousand and eight

16:48

seats. Israel conducted at least eighteen

16:51

hundred such operations these targeted assassinations

16:53

and this is based on evidence

16:55

by an Israeli. Journalists by the

16:57

name of Roman says men. But

16:59

what's interesting is that the hasn't

17:01

always been B C O. between

17:03

Israel and Iran. People think that

17:05

these countries have eternal enemies, and

17:08

increasingly Iran was the second contain

17:10

the Muslim world to recognize Israel

17:12

as a state. Is where the

17:14

wrong was the and under control of. One

17:16

of the Sars presumed that under them

17:18

on and or a Bs and not

17:20

presently as is now and Islamic government

17:22

the very much doesn't recognize Israel right?

17:25

Now an interesting the even after the

17:27

revolution in Nineteen Seventy Nine one Ayatollah

17:29

Khomeini to cove ass it even as

17:32

the that moment there was a relationship

17:34

between Iran and Israel. on one of

17:36

the ones that are number of reasons

17:38

for that because both Israel and Iran

17:40

consider themselves to be different to the

17:43

rest of that reason because they're not

17:45

part of the Arab world you know

17:47

the Radiant do not consider themselves to

17:49

be part of this Arab World Israelis

17:52

do not consider themselves to be part

17:54

of the Arab World is all. Well.

17:56

can arab israelis do this once old

17:58

caviar there was I have said before, which is

18:01

that there are a lot, there are a lot, something

18:03

like 20% of Israelis,

18:05

Arab Israelis, so they do consider themselves part

18:07

of the Arab world those people. Yeah,

18:10

and actually they do. But actually, interestingly,

18:12

when there was a general Arab nationalist

18:14

movement in the region, both Israel and

18:16

Iran saw themselves as distinct to that,

18:18

but also opposed that. There's also a

18:20

little bit of a superiority complex, I

18:23

think, both in Iran and Israel. They're

18:25

quite similar in the sense that they

18:27

do believe that they're chosen people and

18:29

have these great, wonderful civilizations, unlike the

18:31

Arabs who they don't consider to be

18:34

as superior as them. And interestingly,

18:36

both of them also have

18:38

this minority mindset of being

18:41

under siege, that we have

18:43

been persecuted over many generations.

18:46

And just like Israel sees itself as

18:48

the keeper of Jews worldwide, Iran sees

18:50

itself as a keeper of Shia Muslims

18:52

worldwide. So for two countries that actually

18:55

don't get on very well, there's a

18:57

lot of interesting similarities to their psyche.

18:59

Engaging with that, possibly leaping

19:01

forward with what you're going to say, but I

19:04

wonder if any other Jews felt this, you

19:06

know, particularly because obviously it's been solidly

19:10

negative for Israel for a long

19:12

time, much of it justifiably, you

19:14

know, just a sort of negative associations about

19:16

Israel. For a moment,

19:19

firstly, there seemed to be more sympathy

19:21

with Israel when the 300 missiles were

19:23

sent over there. But also the thing

19:25

that I found vaguely cheering, possibly in

19:28

a dysfunctional way, was the fact

19:30

that Jordan and Saudi Arabia

19:33

all helped to shoot down

19:35

the drones, causing some consternation, I

19:38

think, particularly in Jordan, I think there was a

19:40

lot of people who were angry with the Jordanian

19:42

government for doing that. But if I

19:44

tell you what it seemed to me, it seemed to me

19:46

like things are never as straightforward as they seem, that

19:49

the idea that Arab governments would even

19:51

at this time decide that they are

19:54

going to help out with the defense

19:56

of Israel. I think they said, oh,

19:58

this is our airspace. as being

20:00

produced. But I think it was more

20:02

than that, wasn't it? It wasn't just

20:04

that. There's this weird sense that Iranians

20:08

doing that to other parts of

20:10

the Middle East is also considered to be an intrusion,

20:12

right? I think there was

20:15

something even more interesting than that. And that

20:17

was that this was orchestrated theatre

20:19

that Iran, you know, sent all of

20:21

these missiles across wanting every one of

20:24

them to fail. It wasn't

20:26

like we sent something over without any notice. The

20:28

fact that Iran practically rang all the capitals and

20:30

said, at this time on this day, we're going

20:32

to be sending these missiles over. By the way,

20:35

it's going to take them seven hours to get

20:37

there. So you can be waiting for them and

20:39

you can put them all down. So the Haryaf

20:41

were ready for them quite rightly to shoot them

20:43

down, as was the US. The Jordanian airspace was

20:46

cleared. The Saudi airspace was cleared. It

20:48

was all just orchestrated theatre. I

20:50

think it was Iran basically saying,

20:52

you invaded our sovereignty by bombing

20:54

one of our consulates. So we're now

20:56

going to have to react to show you that

20:58

this is what we're going to do in return.

21:00

They're all going to be shut down, which

21:03

is why, interestingly, once

21:05

that's done, they then issued a statement saying, well,

21:07

you know, you did what you did. We've done

21:09

what we've done. And as far as we're concerned,

21:11

I paraphrased, that's the end of the matter. I

21:14

mean, you're right, almost all the missiles

21:16

were intercepted. There was a young Arab

21:19

Bedouin girl, I think, who was hit by shrapnel.

21:21

But as you say, you know, even

21:23

though 300 missiles were sent, which obviously could have

21:25

wrecked a lot of devastation, it did

21:27

seem to be very peculiar. As you say,

21:30

mainly theatrical, mainly just maybe

21:32

aimed at their own population to say,

21:34

look, we are attacking the Zionist regime.

21:36

We don't obviously want any kind of big war,

21:39

but we are doing it. So, you know, come

21:41

out and wave flags about that. I don't

21:43

think, actually, it was just for their

21:46

own population. It was really on the

21:48

international scene to say, You

21:50

did something, we have to respond, we've

21:53

responded. And That's the end of it.

21:55

And Interestingly, even Israel's biggest allies with

21:57

the United Kingdom and the United States.

22:00

Okay, well let's all calm down now

22:02

and let's move on and. Blur Israel

22:04

have said they will respond at some point

22:06

anyway committee so she was somebody said. It.

22:09

Was really interested voice which was you said

22:11

that the Or A F were involved in

22:13

shooting down. The. A radio drones

22:15

as they should be. A Cause

22:17

prose you said the I read article

22:19

by Simon Jenkins in which he said,

22:21

you know that he didn't think Britain

22:23

had any reason to be assisting Israel

22:25

in this particular. Conflicts. At

22:27

all including in the suited and of Rosella. I

22:30

guess the war Britain and America would say. Is

22:32

that? If those missiles at properly

22:34

landed and destroyed Tel Aviv or whatever than

22:37

we probably would be in World War Three.

22:39

and that's why the Are F is tried

22:41

to stop that happening. But you think that's

22:43

fine. You think that Britain helping Israel in

22:45

Oaxaca cases something? Listen, I

22:48

think we had no choice but

22:50

to stop this escalating and

22:52

the fact that their Foreign Secretary,

22:54

Lord Cameron has been speaking. To.

22:57

His counterpart in Iran and in Israel

22:59

over the last few weeks and the

23:02

last few days was all about have

23:04

been fully aware of what they were

23:06

gonna do on what they expected us

23:08

to do in response. Do I

23:10

think it was a good use of money? No, I

23:12

don't write a don't think as time when. Losses

23:14

have our own. Yet of for at

23:17

don't think it's time when we have our

23:19

own cost of living crisis. we should be

23:21

spending millions of pounds putting our debts in

23:23

the At to shoot downs Miss Isles. But

23:26

I think if what it did was a

23:28

calm the situation downs and it meant that

23:30

Britain is now saying look we've done that

23:32

let's have a be calm down Now let's

23:34

go back to what the real issue is

23:37

and this is what I want to talk

23:39

about that the amount of Miss Isles that

23:41

Iran sent to Israel is about a tenth

23:43

of the amounts of missiles that regularly. Rained

23:46

down. On. God's Earth without

23:48

any jets stopping those missiles going

23:50

in, and without an iron dome

23:52

protecting the population of Gaza. And

23:54

what we need to do is

23:57

get back to what this is

23:59

about. witches. We. Should be putting

24:01

our energies into getting a ceasefire.

24:03

has a moving towards a political

24:05

process between Israel and Palestine. Be either

24:07

to screw that at all. I want to

24:09

see something else which is the I saw

24:11

some people. That. Are at a

24:14

protest. Cheering. On Iran in

24:16

the same way that I've seen people

24:18

are process cheering on the who is

24:20

because it's seen as like you know

24:22

a release is a country the prepared

24:24

to fight back against Israel even if.

24:27

They already prepared to shadow box against Israel or

24:29

whatever in case of Iran. What?

24:32

What's you think about that? What do you think about

24:34

the fact that you know. A. This in

24:36

the weird my enemy's enemy is my friend

24:38

way that some of the protests work. Know

24:40

every one of the prices of course. But

24:42

in the people who want to tear on

24:44

here in the the who sees a what

24:46

is your in Iran particular case of a

24:48

raw this is a very terrible regime. Terrible

24:51

theocratic regime that is killing women for

24:53

not wearing his jobs. that as an

24:55

appalling recoding human rights and towards gay

24:58

people and all the rest of it.

25:00

Some people will still decide. They're.

25:03

The good guys because that you know.

25:05

Attacking. The Zionist entity as ugly

25:07

they would cool to have you feel about that.

25:10

I think it's completely nonsensical

25:12

to think that Iran is

25:14

a regime that we think

25:16

somehow represents our values. But

25:19

then you know, I don't think that

25:21

Israel currently has a regime in place

25:23

that represents our values. I. Actually

25:26

think political tensions that a being created

25:28

by two countries where each of them

25:30

is in some way trying to cement

25:32

his own kind of political position in

25:34

their own countries. A while I'll keep

25:36

saying is we need to get back

25:39

to what this issue is about. Which

25:41

A is that there are you know,

25:43

one point eight million people on the

25:45

brink of salmon That that are Thirty

25:47

Three thousand people now dead, most of

25:49

them women and children. No, I agree

25:52

but they saw a relevant that is have

25:54

a not least because her mass are a

25:56

proxy for Iran, Hezbollah or a proxy for

25:58

a while There. That doesn't mean a

26:01

completely off rate. one hundred rounds controlled as

26:03

far as I understand it. But.

26:05

We know that Iran supply weapons

26:07

to her, massively supply weapons to

26:09

Hezbollah, and to some extent, they

26:11

are involved in the control of

26:13

what those entities do. So it's

26:15

not the case that Iran. Is.

26:17

Just an irrelevance. Iran is

26:20

involved absolutely. And what's also

26:22

interesting I think for us to

26:24

understand is that the relationship between

26:26

Iran and Hezbollah and Iran and

26:29

Hamas and Iran and the who

26:31

tais isn't a black and white

26:33

were mates issue that been times

26:36

in recent history where they've been

26:38

it completely different spaces at in

26:40

a wall of both in Syria

26:42

and in Yemen's that we're on

26:45

different sides that had fall outs

26:47

and so I think these a

26:49

useful allies for. Iran and are

26:51

some of the broken record David

26:53

even say your with combat to

26:55

this some mean I'm not all

26:57

of these political issues this kind

26:59

of santo game that were playing

27:02

in the international arena s goes

27:04

back to occupation. And. If we

27:06

find a way to end the occupation

27:08

fear most of these disputes will then

27:10

have to step away. And I think

27:13

the most positive thinkers mentioned earlier was

27:15

the way in which you know the

27:17

Muslim world around Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi

27:19

Arabia, the. Am audience. You know

27:21

none of them was cheering on. For a Rondo kind of

27:23

Sunoco, we have done that now. Pack it in a behavior.

27:25

But this is where there's a

27:28

faint glimmer of hope Rights Because

27:30

below the normalization of relations. Between

27:33

Saudi Arabia and Israel which was

27:35

supposed to be happening just before

27:37

the seventh and there was some

27:39

suggestions that Iran did inspire her

27:41

mass to do the attack in

27:43

order to disrupt our because Iran

27:45

hate Saudi writer and doesn't want

27:47

to normalise relations with Israel but.

27:50

I. Would like to think

27:52

that if. More. Normalization.

27:55

of relations could happen between israel

27:57

and it's arab countries with of

28:00

to that normalization running parallel

28:02

to a Palestinian state happening,

28:05

then that's the way forward for peace. I

28:07

completely agree with you, David. It

28:09

has to happen with the neighboring countries, those

28:11

neighboring countries saying, okay, we will recognize Israel,

28:13

we will trade with Israel, we'll have a

28:15

normal relationship with this country as long as

28:17

there's a Palestinian state. And it does seem

28:19

to me that Iran wants to stop that,

28:22

I think. I completely agree

28:24

with you that in the end,

28:27

the only way that the normalization in

28:29

the region will continue and will work

28:31

is if the existence of a Palestinian

28:33

state is part and parcel of that

28:35

normalization. The only thing I would challenge

28:38

is, and this has been challenged in

28:40

the United States as well, the intel

28:42

community accept that what Hamas did was

28:44

actually not on the orders of Iran.

28:47

And this is now accepted. But

28:49

in the end, David, they all

28:52

act on their own self-interest. People

28:55

think that there's this homogenized Muslim community in

28:57

the act in unison and they've all got

28:59

the same interest. No, they haven't, which is

29:01

why I'm constantly pleading with friends in Israel

29:03

to say, if there's ever a

29:05

moment to find peace, it is now. These

29:07

countries want peace with you. And by the

29:09

way, in the last few months, Pakistan and

29:11

Iran exchanged a few missiles as well. They

29:14

exchanged a few blows in the last

29:16

few months as well. And again, it shows

29:18

you how everybody's got beef with everybody else.

29:21

Yeah, I think we have to

29:23

move on. But we'll definitely be coming back to

29:25

that. I'm also pleased that you mentioned your boyfriend,

29:28

Lord Cameron, during that. God, here we go again.

29:30

We'll be back with you after this short break.

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episodes without the Welcome.

30:01

Back to muslim and a to go there.

30:04

So so l serious thing

30:06

happened and in fact wouldn't

30:08

necessarily. Concern. Us

30:11

because the person involved was neither

30:13

Muslim know Jewish but people thought

30:15

that he was. And I'm talking

30:17

about the attack in Sydney last

30:20

Saturday. Those attacking Bond I and

30:22

in a whistle double and I

30:24

were. A man who attacked

30:26

I think killed six people, five

30:28

women and one man who awful

30:30

terrible attack. Before we get older

30:32

How it was misinterpreted. I think

30:35

there's a thing that happens isn't

30:37

last which is that as Susan

30:39

muslims we see these attacks happening

30:41

and they feel like they. Concern.

30:44

Us. Don't. They in different ways.

30:46

I think you probably think of it in

30:48

one when I think about the in another,

30:50

but we always assume I guess they'll be

30:52

a Jewish Muslim. Element to it or

30:54

there might be and we worry about that before

30:56

the news comes through. is not true. Yeah

30:59

whenever an attack happens Now David

31:02

in the Wild My first instinct

31:04

is to say nothing until I

31:06

know the full facts and I

31:08

send you some tweet Silva didn't

31:11

I Over the weekend when this

31:13

was happening where I said my

31:15

instinct was what the s, Why

31:17

are these people starting to assign

31:19

blame and suggests that this a

31:22

cast care is Muslim because I

31:24

think blinds you. My heart always

31:26

dips when I see an attack

31:28

played. This festival for the victims thinking oh

31:30

god who is gonna get hurt But secondly

31:33

think it's cool is that perpetrator or what's

31:35

gonna be the fall out of all of

31:37

this because it's all the sun is. A

31:39

whole bunch of people sat out there thinking

31:41

the mini an attacker is muslim world this

31:43

and gives them the green lights come on

31:45

stopping all nasty bigoted and then there's another

31:47

group of people want the attacker to be

31:49

A Why Extremists? None. Is it a group

31:51

of people want the attacker to be do

31:53

A since we can all get into our

31:55

tried and then said there you go when

31:57

you're tribes be nasty. To detect. They

32:00

just an attack is very rarely luggage to

32:02

be Jewish. The attacker that might be some

32:04

Israeli element of is very low allied to

32:07

be Jewish. But there is an element always

32:09

of the attack involving Jews that is being

32:11

done somehow in the name of the conflict.

32:13

And so there's a fear. Straightforwardly,

32:16

I could tell you there's a fear that the

32:18

more times that happens the more you think oh

32:20

this is eventually evolve. Someone. I

32:22

know he to the get killed or I'm

32:25

gonna get killed or ever that's how you

32:27

feel as a jew but I would agree

32:29

with you completely that there's a man thing

32:31

that happens where by people want to say

32:34

what it is before they know the information

32:36

so that they can have a confirmation bias

32:38

is confirmed in advance and in if I

32:40

say this on twitter when i then noticed

32:42

was that after that was another attacking said

32:45

day as less serious attack thank heavens but

32:47

in which a priest got attacked by someone

32:49

who I think was chanting in arabic afterwards.

32:52

That. Was a religious attacks that they within

32:54

those people say tried to own mates and

32:56

tried say always it all right to say

32:58

that this person is from a certain religion

33:01

or whatever and will at least that was

33:03

astonishing about eyes that those people more concerned

33:05

about owning mates that about having any concern

33:07

for any the people who might be being

33:09

hurt but I would agree with the as

33:12

he. One thing I would want to get

33:14

a dick is said before is that whenever

33:16

I see one of these attacks happening and

33:18

basically thought it with the Sydney attacker is

33:20

people want to ascribe this to some ethnic.

33:22

Thing and they do offer more to say

33:24

bad faith actors or whatever they want to

33:26

say it's a muslim but I always think

33:29

is do these people not know about in

33:31

cells. Do. You know by in cells. A

33:33

do a deal that needs A The

33:35

attack that killed five women. The attack

33:37

as. Father. Was subsequently

33:39

against city think he did this and

33:41

he said i think he he wanted

33:43

all friend and he can because he

33:45

had no social skills and he was

33:48

really frustrated. said that is that kind

33:50

of anti war man in cel ideological

33:52

movements but I don't have. anyone doesn't

33:54

know sir i think i should say sorry

33:56

if anyone doesn't know a in cel is

33:59

a man know a young man,

34:01

the word means involuntary celibate and

34:03

it's a group, it's a movement

34:05

of young men who now

34:07

believe that there's something politically that

34:09

they can get engaged with often

34:12

violently with the fact that they're

34:14

not able to have sex with the women they want. A lot of

34:17

people have been killed in actual

34:19

massacres by themselves or

34:21

attempted massacres. By the way, I

34:23

don't know if you agree with this, I'm

34:26

of the opinion that almost every massacre has

34:28

that component. Even if it's

34:30

people saying, I'm doing this for religious

34:32

reasons, I'll tell you why, it's always

34:34

men doing this stuff. It's always men

34:37

who are discontented, who are radicalised and

34:39

who almost definitely have got at least

34:41

a sublimated sexual component in what they're

34:43

doing. The British Intelligence Services

34:46

Behavioural Sciences Unit, when it was

34:48

looking at those people who are

34:50

radicalised, looked at this

34:52

and they said one of the issues

34:55

was this issue around confused sexuality, frustrated

34:57

relationships, issues around domestic violence. So there

34:59

is a kind of consistent pattern to

35:02

this. I'm

35:04

going to use the word, what really

35:06

pissed me off about this Australia issue

35:09

as it was unfolding was that here

35:11

was the most tragic killing of women,

35:13

an attack on a child. Actually,

35:15

the only Muslim man who was involved

35:18

in all of this was a security

35:20

guard by the name of Faraz Tahir,

35:22

a 30-year-old migrant from Pakistan who'd recently

35:24

come to Australia who was a security

35:26

guard who stood in the way of

35:29

this attacker and was actually killed as

35:31

a result of it. But nobody wanted

35:33

to mention that Muslim man who was

35:35

involved in this. But what really pissed

35:38

me off was that mainstream people who

35:40

are in the public eye, like Julia

35:42

Hartley Brewer and Rachel Riley, went

35:45

out and said, effectively call this for the

35:47

Muslims. And Rachel Riley even connected it back

35:49

to Palestine and into Fardar and had just

35:51

thought, what in the middle of what is

35:54

going on in the Middle East right now

35:56

and in the middle of these tense relationships

35:58

often that can be done? be between

36:01

Jews and Muslims in this country and

36:03

Muslims and other communities in this country.

36:05

I do think either these people don't

36:07

think or don't care, but

36:09

both of them are worrying traits and

36:12

characteristics if you're in public life. Being

36:14

in public life means you have a

36:16

responsibility to, as my mum says,

36:18

use your ears twice and your mouth once. That's

36:20

why God gave you two ears and one mouth.

36:22

But the fact that this was tweeted out thousands

36:24

and thousands of times afterwards and took on a

36:26

life of its own. And in the end, I

36:28

just thought I'm not even going to respond. I'm

36:31

not even going to engage. I'm not going to

36:33

throw more fuel on this fire. So

36:35

obviously, you're right. It was a very idiotic thing

36:37

for those people to do. A function, of course,

36:39

of social media, so many things. Let's not forget,

36:41

none of this would have happened. These things couldn't

36:43

have happened in the time before social media. Social

36:45

media creates a space where too many people have

36:47

a voice and particularly people want

36:50

to get their voices in early when big

36:52

things happen because of social media is just

36:54

an incredibly narcissistic space where people want to

36:56

be noticed and want to say stuff that

36:58

will get noticed. And one of the ways

37:00

of doing that is by saying something inflammatory

37:02

on social media. One thing that might also

37:04

be worth saying is by the time

37:06

I caught up with this story, everyone

37:09

on social media was saying it was

37:11

a Jewish attacker or an Israeli attacker.

37:13

In fact, there was a specific propute

37:15

in Australian commentator who had targeted a

37:17

specific named Australian guy called

37:19

Benjamin Cohen, who happened to be wearing

37:21

the same football shirt as the attacker

37:23

once. And that poor bloke was

37:25

doxed. He had his address put out online

37:28

and for about 24 hours, there was absolute

37:30

conviction that he was the killer and his

37:32

life would have been ruined for that time,

37:35

which is just horrible. I just think it's awful

37:37

the way that, you know, I think it

37:39

was Benjamin Cohen, wasn't he, who was then

37:41

attacked for this. And I really hope he

37:43

soothes the pants off all those that did

37:45

put his name out there and goes on

37:47

a really nice holiday or maybe even retires

37:50

off the back of it, because there should

37:52

be consequences, right? And the fact that people

37:54

who put this stuff out are still on

37:56

our news channels and are still holding

37:58

down their jobs. And, you

38:00

know, it just disturbs me. For

38:03

me, what hurts more is

38:05

when this stuff comes from the British

38:07

Jewish community. Because I think guys of

38:09

all the people who know what it's

38:11

like to be on the receiving end

38:14

of this rubbish is you guys. So

38:16

why did you dish it out? Well, for some

38:18

I don't think I don't like getting into

38:21

very specific stuff about Twitter because I think, you

38:23

know what, I think it's beneath us. But in

38:26

terms of Rachel, who I know, she

38:28

has apologized not particularly well, I don't

38:30

think, because she's done about four tweets

38:32

trying to explain why she said it

38:34

and she did link it to the

38:36

adafada in a kind of cack handed

38:38

way. She would say, I think,

38:41

that she's felt under threat. She did say

38:43

this for the last six months since October

38:46

the seventh. She talked a lot about not

38:48

being able to go on the tube and

38:50

all this stuff because she's frightened. And so

38:52

in her mind, which I. By

38:54

the way, I'd like to completely say I don't

38:56

agree with this as a way of dealing with

38:58

it. But in her mind, I think she's trying

39:00

to say, oh, this is an

39:03

example of what can happen when the

39:05

threats that are coming out of the

39:07

movement to support Gaza that feel to

39:09

her as a Jew threatening that

39:12

then they can lead eventually to this kind of

39:14

violence. The only thing I can say to

39:16

you, David, is that I on a daily basis because

39:18

of the political space that

39:21

I inhabit, see Islamophobia. It

39:23

doesn't manifest as anti-Jewish racism.

39:26

When I worry about Islamophobia and anti-Muslim

39:28

racism, I also then worry about everybody

39:30

else's racism. And Rachel Riley, who got

39:33

an OBE quite rightly for fighting anti-Semitism

39:35

and who is an

39:37

ambassador for countering hate, including

39:39

the Center for Countering Digital

39:41

Aid, she's an anti-racist campaigner.

39:44

So when you're an anti-racist campaigner, you'd make

39:46

damn sure that you don't do things that

39:48

perpetuate racism and hatred towards any

39:50

other community that's part and parcel of

39:53

it. Otherwise, we're not really anti-racist campaigners,

39:55

we're just tribal people who are out

39:57

just to talk about our own tribe.

40:00

If I want to go there about something which

40:02

I did mention. As partly because I

40:04

felt it too and I feel I think

40:06

partly because of this podcast by I had

40:08

made the point on twitter. The

40:10

People: I think I said people who

40:13

wanted to say before they did information

40:15

that this killer was either Muslim or

40:17

Jewish when he was neither of those

40:19

things just want As a confirmation bias

40:22

is further confirmed. I did think oh

40:24

a bit when. There. Was

40:26

the stabbing in the church Rightly

40:28

says on Bbc that the city

40:30

police have confirmed as terrorists instance

40:32

and it's a case of religious

40:34

extremism now. I want to

40:36

their how you felt about I

40:39

want to the how you felt

40:41

about having definitely and correctly felt

40:43

that the smearing as it were

40:45

of your identity by prominent people

40:47

on twitter because of the assumption

40:50

that the bone die killer was

40:52

muslim and related to the Gaza

40:54

situation. that then when there was.

40:57

Violence perpetrated by Muslim in Australia

40:59

very soon afterwards. How did that

41:01

make you feel up? You know

41:03

the news reports a saying things

41:05

as suggestive that the. Person.

41:08

Involved in the stabbing: The priest is a

41:10

Muslim. They haven't said that he's a Muslim.

41:12

So. I. Guess what I'd like to else

41:14

you? it is. Are we still

41:17

be Islam of phobic if we assume

41:19

that person is a Muslim? Now of

41:21

with that information. Or.

41:23

Could they be a different type of religious extremism?

41:26

Is. A. Muslim man

41:29

kills somebody. Because.

41:31

He's doing in the name of islam. Is

41:33

a terrorists? There's nothing. Is summer phobic about

41:35

calling a terrorist a terrorist? Not Give a

41:37

damn what. Is religious identity is.

41:40

And. By the way, by committing

41:42

an act of terrorism, his acting against

41:44

his own faith anyway because you can't

41:47

take life in the name of faith

41:49

randomly and the one thing you can't

41:51

do actually interest in in is a

41:54

specific ruling on this. You can't kill

41:56

priests, You can't kill other people of

41:58

faith. even in

42:00

war, you're told not to kill

42:03

women, children, people of faith, you

42:05

know, priests and rabbis and

42:07

vicars are off limits anyway, even in a

42:09

war situation. Okay, but the thing is, so

42:11

it happens, and it has happened in this

42:14

case. And as far as I

42:16

can make out, this probably

42:18

was done in the name of Islam,

42:20

because it's been called a case of

42:22

religious extremism, and it's been called an

42:24

act of terrorism. So I guess

42:27

in a way, what I want to know is like

42:29

how much you feel the both things can be true

42:31

thing, which we talk about a lot of this, which

42:33

is obviously, it is wrong for

42:35

people to rush to assume that

42:38

someone who has done that kind of thing

42:40

is a Muslim. At the same time, it

42:42

does happen, particularly from young Muslim men. Yes,

42:45

we need some statistics on the terrorism in

42:47

the West has fallen to its lowest level

42:49

in 15 years, you won't think that if

42:52

you went on Twitter, the global

42:54

terrorism index it has, there were

42:56

listen to these numbers, there were

42:58

23 attacks recorded in the West

43:01

in 2023. And that was

43:03

a 55% drop from

43:05

the previous year lower than the peak of

43:07

attacks, which was 2017. And at its peak,

43:10

there were 176 attacks in the West, we

43:12

magnify this in our

43:17

heads in such a way that we lose

43:19

all concept of what the actual figures are,

43:21

you know, when I wrote my book, the

43:24

enemy within, I looked at these statistics in

43:26

the United States, and I come

43:28

from a family of furniture makers, we make

43:30

beds. And I said that if you look

43:32

at the statistics, you're more likely to be

43:34

killed at the hands of your furniture than

43:37

you are by the hands of a religious

43:39

extremist, you're more likely to kill yourself coming

43:41

out of bed or have some wardrobe fall

43:43

on you, you know, so I just think

43:45

sometimes you've got to be I'm being a

43:47

bit facetious, but you have to put this

43:50

into perspective. And what we've done, unfortunately, is

43:52

we have magnified in our head, this concept

43:54

of the angry young Muslim man who

43:56

goes around killing everybody, and they're so

43:59

uniquely violent, completely to any other

44:01

religion, it's simply not true. Because

44:03

if it was, there are two

44:05

billion Muslims in the world, David,

44:07

we'd all be dead. If that's

44:09

what they were like, we wouldn't

44:12

be able to survive if that

44:14

was the kind of baseline of

44:16

Islam or baseline of Muslim men.

44:18

Yeah, I'm not really saying it. I'm not saying

44:21

it is. I'm saying I agree with you that

44:23

it's a stereotype. I'm asking you to accept that,

44:26

in the case of the stabber of the

44:28

priest and some other occasions, it is

44:30

a thing that exists. I'm

44:33

absolutely prepared to accept that it's magnified, but

44:35

it does also exist. I think it's possibly

44:37

useful to be able to own that as

44:39

well as to attack the stereotype. By the

44:42

way, I also think that if your family

44:44

are good at selling beds, and that's something

44:46

that is a good business tradition in your

44:48

family, you shouldn't go on about furniture killing

44:51

people. That's not going to be at all

44:53

good for your market. Have

44:55

we covered it? I think the other

44:57

statistic, which I think is really interesting, is that

44:59

of the seven attacks that were recorded in the

45:01

United States in 2023, five were

45:04

linked to individuals with far right

45:06

sympathies or connections. So of the

45:08

seven, five in the United States

45:10

were far right. And

45:12

this is exactly what I found when I

45:14

wrote my book that overwhelmingly in the West,

45:17

and specifically in the United States, terrorist

45:19

attacks are done by extreme

45:21

far right, not by... And in

45:24

the United States, the vast amount

45:26

of violence, which is not defined as

45:28

terrorism, is just done by mad

45:30

men who've got some terrible grievance, and

45:32

then they decided to shoot up a

45:35

high school or their place of

45:37

work or whatever. And that stuff is much,

45:40

much more likely to kill you in America

45:42

than any form of terrorist attack. That's clearly

45:44

the case. And you know,

45:47

talking about men who have issues,

45:49

it's actually quite a funny story.

45:51

So during the heyday of ISIS,

45:53

when young men were traveling from

45:55

the UK to join ISIS, two

45:57

young boys from Birmingham decided

46:00

they wanted to go off and be part of this

46:02

big gang, you know, ISIS and have the big guns

46:04

and big cars. And when they

46:06

decided to set off, it suddenly occurred to

46:08

them that actually they knew nothing about Islam.

46:11

They were just like two boys who wanted

46:13

to go out and be part of the

46:15

biggest gang. And they actually ordered from Amazon,

46:17

Islam for dummies. And it was one of

46:19

the pieces of evidence that led to their conviction. And

46:22

often what you find is that these

46:24

young men who want to be part

46:26

of religious extremism and terrorism no bugger

46:29

all about religion. Of course. I

46:31

mean, you know, almost all the

46:34

ways in which young men have joined violent

46:36

organisations over many years is

46:38

more about those young men wanting

46:41

to create for themselves a sense

46:43

of heroism, nobility, destiny, and being

46:45

part of something, as you said,

46:47

giving themselves an identity beyond

46:49

just being some nameless bloke from

46:51

some backwater. It feels much more

46:54

exciting and glamorous. That

46:56

is the real reason why men get

46:58

involved in these things. It's very rarely,

47:00

I think, anything to do with actual

47:03

theology or whatever else it might be. While

47:06

we're talking about theology, Pesach starts

47:08

on Monday. It starts on Monday night. That

47:10

is when Jews will be doing the Seder,

47:12

which is the meal that they have. It's

47:15

Passover. Do you know what Passover is, Seder?

47:17

I do know what Passover is, but I'm

47:19

not going to try and be the expert when I've got you,

47:21

the atheist Jew in the room. Yeah. Well,

47:23

I do know about it. Are you going to get it wrong and

47:25

then loads of people are going to write in and say, you got

47:27

it wrong? No, I'm actually not

47:29

going to get this wrong, but it's

47:32

a complicated one in a way because

47:34

it's about the way that the Jews

47:36

who were enslaved in Egypt in Egyptian

47:38

times left Egypt to go and travel

47:40

with God's help to Israel, to the

47:42

land of Milghani. And so

47:45

there'll be people out there who think

47:47

that's the first example of the settler

47:49

colonialists doing their thing, I imagine. And

47:51

particularly because what we're meant to say

47:53

on Pesach, what Jews are meant to say is

47:55

next year in Jerusalem,

47:58

Leshana haba'a Yerushalayim. and

48:00

that again is a probably a complicated thing

48:03

to say right at the

48:05

moment. Pesach does have very much is

48:07

about the notion that Jews are indigenous

48:09

to that particular place. But

48:12

what we do basically is we have a

48:14

big meal and then we eat

48:16

a lot of unleavened bread which is essentially a

48:18

big cracker. There's a thing that

48:20

Jews say when they sit down to any big festivals

48:22

which is they tried to kill us, they failed, let's

48:24

eat. And that is what it means to be Jewish.

48:28

Anyway, I wanted to say good yontuf to you.

48:30

This is going out on Thursday, but good

48:32

yontuf is what Jews say.

48:35

Good yontuf. Good

48:37

is just good, that's not Hebrew. But

48:39

yontuf means like special day. I'll tell

48:41

you what I was going to ask about Passover though.

48:44

One of the things I read was that part

48:46

of Passover was the fast of the firstborn. And

48:48

that sounds very Game of Thrones and I thought

48:50

could you explain that to me? So fast

48:52

to the firstborn, I think you've slightly got it

48:54

wrong there, the Egyptians wouldn't let the Jews go.

48:57

They kept them as slaves in

48:59

Egypt. God came and created ten

49:01

plagues. And they're mainly slightly weird

49:03

plagues because they include frogs, like

49:06

a lot of frogs appeared from nowhere, which

49:08

actually sounds like quite a laugh. And then

49:10

there was, yeah, locusts were one of them.

49:12

And then one of them was the Angel

49:14

of Death passed over the houses of the

49:16

Egyptians and all their firstborn sons were killed.

49:18

So that's slightly less comedy. But all these

49:20

plagues, apparently that's why the Egyptians eventually said,

49:22

all right, you can go get out of

49:24

here. Oh, I just made that up. All

49:26

right. So I've just checked it and Saida's

49:28

bloody right, isn't she? Like she so often

49:30

is. It turns out there is a fast

49:32

of the firstborn. It's the night before Passover.

49:35

The firstborn child in a Jewish family

49:37

in memory of the Egyptians who were killed

49:39

by the Angel of Death is supposed to

49:41

fast. No Jews ever

49:43

done that, I don't think, because we fast

49:45

on Yom Kippur. That is enough for the

49:47

whole year. You know what, David? I'm

49:50

actually going to fast on the day of the fast

49:52

of the firstborn, just so I can guess like my

49:54

elder sister who always thinks I'm trying to behave like

49:56

the firstborn when she is. I'll send her a

49:58

little picture. Okay. I bet you're not. because you know

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