0:14

Pushkin. So

0:30

I was riding in my car. I'm driving and

0:33

this klansman was sitting in my passenger

0:35

seat and we got

0:37

on the topic of a crime,

0:40

and he made the mention that black

0:43

people are born with a

0:45

gene that makes them violent.

0:48

And I said, look, I'm as black

0:51

as anybody you've ever seen. I

0:53

have never done a drive

0:55

by or a car jacking. How

0:57

do you explain that this man

0:59

did not hesitate one second? He

1:02

answered me instantly, he said, your

1:04

gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet. That's

1:08

Darryll Davis, a blues musician. And

1:10

yeah, you heard him right. He's driving

1:13

in his car with a number of the Ku Klux

1:15

Klan. You know, I was speechless.

1:17

I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting

1:20

next to me with all smug and secure. Huh.

1:22

You see, you know you have nothing to say. And

1:25

I thought about it for a moment rather

1:27

than attack him, you say it's not true. It's not

1:29

true. I said to him,

1:32

I said, you know, white

1:34

people have a gene within them that

1:37

make them serial killers. And

1:40

he said, why would you say that. I

1:42

said, well, face it, name me three

1:44

black serial killers. He

1:47

thought about it. You couldn't name anybody, you

1:49

couldn't do it. I rattled off

1:51

Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry

1:54

Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted

1:56

Bundy, David burklewot son of Sam

1:59

Albert de Salvo, the Boston Strangler.

2:01

And I said, Son, you are a serial

2:04

killer. And he said, Darrell, I've

2:07

never killed anybody. I said, you're Gina's

2:09

leg and hasn't come out yet. He

2:11

said, well, that's stupid, and I said, well,

2:13

duh, it is stupid.

2:16

And he got very, very quiet,

2:20

and I could tell that the gears in

2:22

his head were spinning super fast,

2:24

probably burning a hole in there. And

2:26

then he a moment later he changed the subject.

2:29

But within five months this guy

2:32

quit the Ku Klux Klan. Since

2:37

that car ride thirty years ago, Darryl

2:39

Davis has gone on to convince dozens

2:41

of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. Convincing

2:44

someone else to change their mind their view

2:46

of reality is one of the most

2:48

elusive, coveted types of change,

2:51

which is why Darryl's story feels so

2:53

improbable. So how does he do

2:55

it? I'm maya shunker

2:58

as a cognitive scientist. I've always been

3:00

fascinated by how we change our minds

3:02

and why we change our minds. On

3:04

this show, I'll have intimate conversations

3:07

with people who have navigated extraordinary

3:09

change, and hopefully their stories

3:11

will get us to think differently about change

3:13

in our own lives. This is a

3:15

slight change of plans. Darrel

3:41

didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He

3:44

was mostly just focused on his music. But

3:46

one night his life took an unexpected turn

3:48

when he was playing a show at a bar called

3:51

the Silver Dollar Lounge.

3:57

The Silver Dollar Lounge at the time was an all white

3:59

lounge, and I say that not meaning

4:02

that black people could not go in, but

4:04

meaning that they did not go in by their own

4:06

choice because they were not welcome there.

4:09

And when you go somewhere where you're not

4:11

welcome and alcohol

4:13

is being served, sometimes it has not made

4:16

for a good combination, especially when you're out

4:18

numbered. So we took a break

4:20

after the first set, and I was walking

4:22

across the dance floor to go sit you with the

4:24

bandmates when somebody approached

4:26

me from behind and put their arm around

4:28

my shoulder. No, I don't know anybody in this place,

4:30

so I'm turning around to see who's touching me? And

4:33

it was this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen

4:35

years older than me, and he's all

4:37

excited. He says, man, I sure like your piano

4:39

playing. This is the first time

4:41

I ever heard of black man play piano like

4:44

Jerry Lee Lewis. And

4:46

I told him, I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same place

4:48

I did, from black blues

4:50

and boogie woogie piano players. Oh no,

4:53

no, no no, no, I never heard no black man play

4:55

like that. So for you, Jerry Lee invented that style.

4:58

I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis.

5:00

He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself

5:02

where he had learned how to play. The guy didn't

5:04

buy that either, but he was so fascinated

5:06

with me that he wanted me to come

5:08

back to table. He's going to buy me a drink,

5:11

so I don't drink, but I agreed to have a cranberry

5:13

juice. He bought it, paid the waitress, and

5:15

then he took his glass and he clinked

5:17

my glass and cheered me, and

5:19

then he announces, you know, this is the first

5:22

time I ever sat down with a black man and

5:24

had a drink so innocently

5:26

I asked him why, and he didn't

5:28

answer me at first. I asked him again, and

5:30

his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him and said

5:32

tell him, tell him, And the guy looked

5:35

at me and said, I'm

5:37

a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Well

5:40

I burst out laughing at him because

5:42

now I do not believe him. I thought

5:44

he was putting the joke on me. I'm laughing.

5:47

He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his

5:49

wallet, flips through it, and hands me

5:52

his clan membership card. I

5:54

recognized the clan insignia, which

5:56

is a red circle with a white cross and

5:58

a red blood drop in the center of the cross, and

6:01

I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you know this is

6:03

for real. So I stopped laughing. But

6:06

he was, you know, very friendly and very

6:09

appreciative of my music

6:11

and all excited. He gave

6:13

me his phone number to you

6:16

know, to call him whenever I was

6:18

to return to this bar with this band, and

6:20

so I'd called him every six weeks and say, hey, man,

6:22

you know, I'm down there at the Silver Dollar this weekend

6:24

coming out. You say, it's so nonchalantly

6:27

like, so I called the guy. It

6:29

is remarkable that you called this person. And

6:32

you know, I don't think I'm alone in struggling

6:35

to understand you know, what was going through through

6:37

your mind at this moment. If someone told

6:39

me that they were in the freaking clan,

6:42

I would certainly not call

6:44

them back. In fact, I'd probably

6:46

just flee the scene. And I think this is for

6:48

pretty good reasons. Well,

6:50

you know, I was questioning myself

6:52

for a second, like what the heck am I doing

6:54

sitting here with a Klansmen. But

6:57

the guy was friendly. He disputed

7:00

the things that I had in mind of

7:03

the image over typical klansmen, and

7:05

he wanted to share my music with some

7:07

of his fellow klansmen clans women. And

7:10

they would you get on the danceloor and dancelore on

7:12

music. You know, they didn't come in robes and Hood's right, you

7:14

know, they came in you know, regular street clothes. This

7:17

goes on for a year, an entire

7:19

year. Darrell would play a

7:21

gig at this bar, and he would invite clan members

7:24

to watch him play. This is one

7:26

of those things that makes Darrell so unusual.

7:29

I mean, for me, a huge part of what

7:32

makes someone who they are is their belief

7:34

system. And so if we share

7:36

the same taste in music, that's fine,

7:38

that's great. But if I then find

7:40

out they're a flagrant racist, that's

7:43

going to fully eclipse everything else

7:45

about them. So how does Darrell

7:47

look past that? He says, it's

7:50

not like that. He wasn't looking past

7:52

it. He wanted to learn from it. See,

7:55

Darrell had spent his early childhood

7:57

overseas in a school he describes

8:00

as a United Nations for little kids.

8:02

Race was always in the background, but

8:05

when he moved back to the States when he was ten,

8:07

he couldn't escape races, and

8:09

ever since then he's been interested

8:12

in why people hate. I

8:14

had had an experience at the age of ten where

8:17

some racist people throw rocks and bottles

8:19

at me during a parade in which I

8:21

was the only black participant, and

8:24

never having had this happened to me before, I

8:27

was perplexed as to why people were doing

8:29

this, and when later my parents explained

8:31

that it was racism, my ten year old

8:33

brain could not process the idea

8:36

that someone who had never seen me before, who

8:38

had never spoken with me, and knew nothing about

8:40

me, would want to inflict pain upon me

8:43

for no other reason than the color of my skin. You

8:45

know that just did not compete with me.

8:48

Well, later, when I realized this was true, there

8:50

are people like that, I formed

8:52

a question in my mind, which was, how

8:54

can you hate me when you don't even know me?

8:57

And some people would just say, well, Darryl, you know that's

8:59

just the way it is. Well, no, it's not just

9:01

the way it is. There has to be a reason

9:03

behind it. Well it's always

9:05

been that way. That was not good enough

9:07

for me. I wanted to get to the nuclear of it. So

9:10

Darryll dedicates himself to answering this

9:13

question. He devours books

9:15

about race and racism. He reads

9:17

nearly every book that exists on the Klan,

9:20

but he's still unsatisfied, so

9:22

he decides he wants to write his own book

9:24

about the clan. All the

9:26

books written on the clan except

9:29

for mine, have been written by white

9:31

authors. You know, white authors

9:33

obviously have an easier time getting

9:35

in contact with the clan and sitting down and

9:37

not fearing any ramifications or whatever,

9:40

or they might even join the clan undercover. A

9:42

clansman would have a different perspective

9:45

sitting there talking to a black person

9:47

than he would a white person. And

9:50

how do you feel that perspective would have been different

9:52

because he's sitting there telling the person that

9:54

he hates why he hates them. So

9:57

now he's having to face me and face

9:59

those same questions you know that somebody

10:02

would ask, or even different questions that a

10:04

white interviewer journalist would

10:07

not ask because they don't think of him, because

10:09

they don't feel the things the same things that I feel.

10:12

As Darrell starts researching for his book,

10:14

it suddenly dawns on him he

10:16

already knows someone in the clan, that

10:19

guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So

10:21

he goes on a mission to track him down. It

10:24

takes a while, but eventually he finds

10:26

the guy's address and I knocked

10:28

on the door, you know, unannounced, and

10:30

he opens the door and sees me, goes, Darrell,

10:33

you know what are you doing here? And look, he

10:35

looked up and down the hallway to see if I brought

10:37

anybody with me. So it was more of him

10:39

that who was intimidated than me. And

10:41

when he stepped out of his apartment, I

10:44

stepped in. So he turns around,

10:46

comes back in. So now we're standing inside

10:48

his apartment and he says, you know what's going

10:50

on? Are you still playing. What's going on? I said, yeah,

10:52

yeah, yeah, I'm still playing. But listen, I

10:55

need to talk to you about the clan. He

10:57

says, the clan. I said, yeah. He goes, well,

10:59

I quit. I quit a while back. I

11:02

said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff?

11:05

He says, well, they came and got it. And

11:07

I said, what do you mean they came and got your robe hood?

11:09

You know, don't you own it? And he explained

11:11

to me, when you join the clan, if

11:14

you have the money to pay for it, you can purchase

11:16

your robin hood and it's yours to keep forever.

11:19

If you cannot afford it at the time, you

11:21

can still take it home with you, but you put

11:23

a little extra money in every time you

11:25

pay your dues until you pay it off,

11:27

sort like layaway kind of thing. A bizarre

11:30

financial lead system within the clan. Love

11:32

it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity

11:34

for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay,

11:36

absolutely so. Anyway,

11:39

he said that they

11:41

came and got it, but when they came to get it, he

11:43

could not find the mask, and

11:46

he has since found it and

11:48

he needed to return it. I said, what can I see

11:50

it? So he goes down the hallway, comes

11:53

back and hands me the mask, and I said

11:55

to him, I said, do you know Roger Kelly.

11:58

He goes, yeah, Roger was my Grand Dragon.

12:00

I know him. And I said, well, listen, I

12:02

need you to hook me up with mister Kelly. I

12:04

want you to interview him. I'm going to write a book on the

12:06

clan. Now, let me explain how

12:08

the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand

12:10

these terms. We would call a state

12:13

leader a governor. They call that the Grand

12:15

Dragon a mayor. That person

12:17

is known as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody

12:20

on the great level is Yeah, it's very

12:22

the self importance that these names true,

12:25

that's yeah. But see that's also

12:28

what attracts people because you know, they

12:30

get titles, they feel important. Yes, it's a

12:32

sense of self importance, you know, because

12:34

they're not getting that from the society in which

12:36

they live. So, you know, this brotherhood,

12:39

this gang, if you will, gives him those

12:41

things. So at the time,

12:43

Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state leader from

12:45

Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you what you

12:47

need to return this mask, right, he said

12:49

yeah. I said, give me Roger

12:51

Kelly's phone number and his address

12:54

and I'll go and return it for you. And

12:56

he snatched that thing right out of my hand and said,

12:58

in no way. And so I begged

13:00

and plead it with him. Well, he finally

13:03

gave it to me on the condition that I not

13:05

revealed him mister Kelly where I got it. And

13:08

he warned me that Darrell, do not go to Roger

13:10

Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you.

13:13

And I said, well, that's that's the whole reason why

13:15

I need to talk to mister Kelly. I know,

13:18

why would he kill me? What is

13:20

going on in his mind when he sees

13:22

me. I have to understand this. You

13:24

did realize that you might not

13:26

get the answer to the question if, in fact the dangerous

13:30

part happened first, right, true,

13:32

this is true. But but I but I was

13:35

thinking, you know that I would

13:37

I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist.

13:39

If you will, Well, I am not the

13:41

eternal optimist. And Darrell's

13:43

decision feels incredibly risky.

13:46

But anyway, he has a secretary,

13:48

Mary, call and schedule the interview, and

13:51

he gives her one important instruction,

13:54

do not tell him that I'm black, and

13:57

see if you would consent to sitting down

13:59

and giving her boss an interview.

14:01

I figured, you know, he might pick up in my voice

14:04

that I'm black, and uh. I

14:06

didn't want him to hang up the phone say am I talking to you,

14:08

and my whole project would have ended before

14:10

they ever got started. Roger

14:12

Kelly agrees to meet for an interview one

14:14

evening at a nearby motel. Darrel

14:17

gets to the motel early with Mary. He's

14:20

not sure if Roger will even agree to

14:22

step foot in the room, but if he does,

14:25

Darrel wants to be hospitable. He

14:27

asked Mary to fill up the ice bucket and buy

14:29

some sodas, and then they start arranging

14:31

the room. There's not much to arrange. There's

14:34

the ice bucket, a table, two chairs,

14:37

and Daryl's canvas bag which has his tape

14:39

recorder and a Bible. The clan

14:41

claims to be a Christian organization, and

14:44

they claim that the Bible preaches are

14:46

racial separation. Now, in

14:48

my reading of the Bible, I have never seen

14:50

anything like that in there. So I want to be able

14:52

to pull up my Bible and hand it to him

14:54

and say, here, mister Kelly, please show

14:57

me chapter and verse where

14:59

it says blastomed whites must

15:01

be separate. So I'm all prepared right right

15:04

on time, right to the minute. Five fifteen knock,

15:06

knock, knock on the door. In

15:09

it's what is known as the Grand Nighthawk.

15:11

Night Hawk means bodyguard security.

15:15

He's dressed in military camouflage

15:17

and he has that clan patch on his

15:19

chest on one side, on the other side

15:21

of his chest or the initials cakak and

15:24

embroidered on his cap and said Knights

15:26

of the Ku Klux Klan, and on his

15:28

hip. He had a semi automatic handgun in

15:31

a holster. He comes

15:33

in, Mister Kelly is walking directly

15:35

behind him, carrying a briefcase

15:38

in a dark blue suit and tie. And

15:40

the night Hawk turned the corner and saw

15:42

me and just froze

15:45

in his trap. So mister Kelly

15:47

slammed into his back and knocked this guy

15:50

forward. And now that they both are stumbling

15:52

around trying to regain their balance, and

15:54

they're like looking all around the room like somebody's

15:57

not right here. And I'm just sitting

15:59

at the table looking at their faces, and

16:01

I could read their faces like a billboard.

16:04

Their faces were saying to me, did

16:06

the desk give us the wrong room number? Do

16:09

do we misunderstand something or is this an

16:11

ambush? So you know, I saw the apprehension,

16:14

and so I stood up and I displayed

16:16

both of my palms to show I had nothing

16:18

in my hands, and I walked forward.

16:20

I extended my right hand and I said,

16:23

Hi, mister Kelly, I'm Darryl Davis. We'll

16:29

be right back with a slight change of

16:31

plans. You're

16:43

listening to a slight change of plans. I'm

16:45

Maya Shunker. So there they are, Roger

16:48

Kelly, the grand Dragon of the Clan, face

16:50

to face with Darrell Davis. Daryl

16:54

reaches out to shake Roger's hand and

16:56

Roger shakes his hand back. It

16:58

seems like the interview is going to happen, but

17:00

before he can dive in with his first question,

17:03

Roger asked to see Darryl's ID. So

17:06

Darrel hands in his driver's license and

17:08

then he looks at it and he says, oh, you

17:10

live on such and such a street. And

17:12

so now I'm wondering, why is this man reading

17:14

my address? You know, is he gonna come burn

17:16

across at my house or you know what? So

17:19

that had me a little concerned, but I didn't

17:21

want to let him know that he had rattled me a little bit,

17:23

and so I said to him, I said, yes, mister Kelly, that

17:26

is where I live and you live at

17:28

and I named his house number and his street.

17:30

It's a pretty good mic drop line. Yeah,

17:32

because you know, if you come visit me, I'm

17:34

going to come and visit you. So you know, maybe

17:37

it's better that we just confine all of this visiting

17:39

to this motel room. So

17:41

anyway, we started with this interview that

17:46

this is the actual cassette tape from the meeting.

17:49

Okay, first, what got you

17:51

interested in in the q clux Klan. I

17:54

was always interested as a kid, you know, when I was going

17:56

to school, I was interested. I was fascinated

17:58

by the Rachel was a rogues across

18:00

burning and things like hey

18:03

and did yeah family and the clan. I was like a friend introducer

18:05

to the clan ran mothers in the plan year ago. You

18:08

know, we be and talking and every

18:10

time my cassette would run out of tape, I'd

18:13

reach down into my bag to get a fresh cassette,

18:16

or if mister Kelly tried to make some biblical

18:18

point, I'd reach down in my bag and put

18:20

out the Bible. The night hawk was standing

18:22

to mister Kelly's right at full attention,

18:25

and every time I

18:27

reached down, the nighthawk

18:29

reached up to his gun. Well

18:32

after about an hour or so, the

18:35

bodyguard relaxed, he realized there

18:37

was no threat in the bag, and I went in and out

18:39

of the bag. He didn't move a little

18:41

over an hour into this, mister Kelly

18:43

and I were just have, you know, casual conversation, and

18:46

there was a quick, short noise

18:49

that occurred out of nowhere. It sounded

18:51

like this, And

18:54

because it came out of nowhere suddenly,

18:57

and it was so fast and so short, my

18:59

ear could not discern it. So I

19:02

perceived it to be a threatening

19:04

noise. I knew that mister

19:06

Kelly had made this noise. How

19:08

did I know that? Because I didn't make

19:10

it, and I feared

19:13

for my life. I'm not armed, My

19:15

secretary is not armed. The only person

19:17

who I know for sure is armed is the

19:19

nighthawk. I can see his gun on his hip.

19:22

I don't know if mister Kelly carries one up under

19:24

his suit jacket or not. All I know is,

19:26

you know, I don't want to die. I'm

19:28

looking right into mister Kelly's eyes I

19:31

mean, I'm just like inchested away from him, and

19:33

his eyes were fixated on mine. Mine

19:35

were fixated on his. Neither one of

19:38

us said a word. My eyes were saying

19:40

to him, what did you just do? And

19:43

I realized his eyes were saying to me, what did

19:45

you just do? And the nighthawk was looking

19:47

back and forth between both of us, like would

19:49

either one of y'all just do well.

19:52

Mary was sitting to my left on top

19:54

of the dresser because there were no more chairs

19:56

in the room, and she realized what had

19:59

happened, and she began explaining

20:01

it to us. When it happened again, the

20:06

ice in the ice bucket had begun

20:10

and the cans of soda pop were shifting

20:12

down the ice. Wow. And

20:14

then, of course when she explained it and it happened again,

20:17

you know, we all began laughing. We all began

20:19

laughing at the same thing. Everybody

20:22

in that room became human in

20:24

that moment. We all feared,

20:27

We all feared each other. Somebody

20:30

could have gotten shot over an ice

20:32

cube, all right, Just think about that

20:34

for a second. After

20:37

this interview, Daryl and Roger keep

20:39

in touch. Daryl is still curious

20:42

about Roger's perspective and how it might

20:44

answer the question Daryl's been asking for

20:46

decades, how can you hate me if

20:48

you don't even know me? And now

20:51

the two weren't actually getting to know each

20:53

other. Was there a point

20:55

where you thought, hey, wait a second,

20:58

I might actually be able

21:00

to get this Roger Kelly guy to change his mind

21:02

about this. Here's a thing, Maya.

21:05

I never set out to change anybody,

21:07

not the first time, any means,

21:09

because you know, I never expected anybody

21:11

to change. All I wanted to know was

21:14

how can you hate me when you don't even

21:16

know me? As all I want to know? And I

21:18

never expected to see these people again. But

21:21

when you're sitting there, one on one with somebody,

21:24

it's hard to hate them as a human

21:26

being. It's hard to hate them, and it's

21:29

hard for them to hate you, even though they may try.

21:31

But was there something specific that he did

21:33

or that he said where you saw that there

21:35

was an end? Yeah.

21:38

I began noticing changes in

21:42

in his behavior, in his language.

21:45

He'd been to my house. His bodyguard

21:47

would come with him initially, and we would have

21:50

lunch or dinner at my table. I never got

21:52

invited to his house. But then when he became

21:54

Imperial Wizard. He began

21:56

inviting me to his house, and

21:59

already he was coming down to my house without without his

22:01

bodyguard. He trusted me that much. This

22:03

goes on for over five years. Eventually

22:07

Roger quits the clan, but

22:09

he doesn't simply step down and hand it over

22:12

to someone else. He shuts down

22:14

his entire chapter, and

22:16

he cites his friendship with Darryl as

22:18

being the reason Daryl

22:20

since inspired over two hundred people

22:22

to leave white supremacist groups. And

22:25

Darryl's story of changing people's minds doesn't

22:27

end there. He's still doing this kind

22:29

of work today all over the world. And

22:31

I wanted to dig in deeper on his approach. I

22:34

know you don't like saying that you change people's minds,

22:37

right, You inspire them to change their own

22:39

minds. So when it comes to inspiring them to change

22:41

their own minds, did you have to adapt

22:43

your approach at all when when dealing with different

22:46

types of folks? Absolutely,

22:48

because you know, just like if somebody

22:51

you know, you're a musician and you play

22:53

violin, and I don't know if you're right handed or left

22:55

handed, left handed, hey shout

22:58

out at Some

23:00

people are wired left handed. Some people are

23:02

wired right handed. It doesn't make one

23:05

person better than the other, It just happens

23:07

to be how they're wired. Likewise,

23:10

how we make decisions depends

23:12

upon how we're wired. Some

23:14

people are wired to make decisions based

23:16

upon their emotions. Others

23:19

make decisions based upon their logic.

23:22

So first you determine how

23:24

does somebody decide

23:27

something. If they if they

23:29

make decisions based upon emotion, then

23:32

there's no way in heck you're

23:34

going to get to get them to see your point if

23:36

you bring a logical perspectives.

23:39

The same thing if you if you're dealing with a scientist

23:42

or somebody who deals in data and logic

23:44

and evidence, don't come with an

23:46

emotional argument. You know, then I' even

23:48

going to listen to you. Show them the data, show

23:50

them the stats, the test results. So

23:53

you know, you have to go to where they are. And

23:55

oftentimes we miss that, we

23:57

don't understand that because we haven't taken the time.

24:00

I've seen it happen time and time again.

24:03

So a clansman

24:05

comes comes into my room to be interviewed

24:07

or whatever we meet. As

24:10

soon as he or she sees me, the

24:12

wall goes right up. You

24:14

cannot impart any intelligent

24:17

information to them when their

24:19

wall is up, because when their wall is up,

24:21

their ears are plugged and they're shutting you out. Your

24:23

mission is to bring the wall

24:26

down. So I'm sitting

24:28

there two feet from the guy, and he's telling

24:30

me that I'm a criminal and

24:32

that I'm lazy, and that I'm unintelligent,

24:35

basing all of this based on my

24:37

black skin. So when

24:40

he's done radiating all this vitriol,

24:43

his wall has come down because I haven't

24:45

pushed back, and he's curious as to

24:47

why I haven't pushed back, because he's so accustomed

24:50

to being pushed back on and

24:53

so now I've thrown him off his game and

24:55

he wants to know, well, how

24:57

do I feel about all this? I could

24:59

go on the offense

25:02

and attack him verbally and say,

25:04

no, you are the criminal. You are

25:06

the ones hanging black men from trees

25:08

and bombing black churches and dragging

25:11

black men behind pickup trucks, and I

25:13

would be a one hundred percent correct. But

25:15

rather than go on the offense, because if

25:17

I did that, that wall will go right back up

25:19

and he wouldn't hear a word I'm saying. Instead

25:22

of going on the offense, I go on the

25:24

defense and Maya hear's

25:26

what happens. He goes home

25:29

and at the end of the day, like we all do, we

25:31

reflect on what transpired during the day

25:33

before we go to bed. He

25:35

thinks, Man, you know, I had a three hour conversation

25:38

today with a black guy, you

25:40

know, and we didn't come to blows. You know, we might have gotten

25:42

a little loud, but we didn't come to blows. And

25:45

in most cases with me, most

25:47

people have changed their perspectives.

25:50

So I don't think many people in their

25:52

everyday lives are going to be interacting with members

25:54

of the clan, obviously, but many

25:57

of us, many listeners of this podcast,

25:59

do encounter racism and prejudice

26:02

on a daily basis. And you

26:04

know, when I first heard about your story, I thought,

26:06

wow, if this man can convince clan

26:09

members to leave, than anything is possible. But

26:12

it feels like maybe things are a little

26:14

bit more complicated than that, right, Because in

26:17

order to get someone to be less racist,

26:19

a necessary step is for them to

26:22

identify that they are in fact

26:24

being racist. And clan members

26:26

are already brazen and celebratory

26:29

in their racism. But if you were

26:31

to challenge a mom or a dad who says

26:33

in private, you know that they prefer

26:35

if their daughter not marry a black man. They

26:38

might not be willing to acknowledge this

26:40

prejudice within themselves. And so

26:42

I'm curious to know what advice you'd

26:44

give to people who are trying to help those

26:46

around them simply acknowledge

26:49

their own prejudices by

26:52

sending down saying, hey, let's let's not

26:55

have a debate, let's have a conversation.

26:57

Like for example, just the other day, a

27:00

very good friend of mine his fellow

27:03

musician, and we both like music

27:05

of the fifties, you know, Elvis Presley, Jeff Berry,

27:07

all that stuff. And he

27:09

posted on Facebook, I

27:12

wish we could return to the

27:14

mindset of the fifties, and all

27:16

these people, you know, gave him a thumbs

27:18

up and likes and all that kind of stuff. So

27:21

I saw it and I wrote on there,

27:24

hmm, dot dot dot. I

27:26

said, maybe we should return

27:28

bring back the music, maybe

27:31

bring back some of the cool cars, and

27:33

definitely some of the low prices, but

27:35

perhaps not the mindset. And

27:37

see, and that's a whole different perspective. You will

27:40

never hear black people talk about the good old

27:42

days because we didn't have good

27:44

old days, you know. And you know I

27:46

loved the music of the fifties. But what I

27:49

want to go back to that era? No, because

27:51

in that era I would have to be drinking from

27:53

a separate order fountain, riding in the back of

27:55

the bus, not being served in certain restaurants.

27:58

I don't want to go back to that. But see if that didn't

28:00

even occur to him, Why I did it not

28:02

occur to him because he has white

28:04

privilege, and you know,

28:06

it was just a plain ignorance. So I

28:08

had to just point it out to him. He

28:11

wasn't trying to be offensive or anything like

28:13

that, He just didn't know. How

28:15

do you think about the difference between labeling

28:18

behaviors as racists versus people

28:20

as racist, and how that difference

28:22

in focus might affect people's

28:24

ability to change. You

28:28

put a label on somebody, they

28:30

tend to carry it.

28:32

It damages them.

28:34

And if they have paid their price that you know, they've

28:36

given that up. They should not have to wear that

28:38

label anymore. We need to break

28:40

them from that. Otherwise, what do

28:43

they have left? How do

28:45

they feel whole? You

28:48

know, we can't do that to people. During

28:52

my time at the Obama White House when

28:54

we were designing reentry

28:56

guides for people who are leading prison

28:59

we made sure not to use labels like

29:01

ex convicts or ex prisoners and instead

29:03

use forward looking language like community

29:06

members. And this was basic on the idea

29:08

that people often act in ways

29:11

that's strongly align with their social identities,

29:13

and you know, they can often feel fixed in those

29:16

identities. Yes, like,

29:18

if they've paid the price, they have accepted

29:20

responsibility and accountability,

29:24

then why should we label them that way? Label

29:27

them ask to what they are at the time.

29:31

Daryl's now working with the State Department. They

29:33

send him on trips to Israel, India

29:36

and other countries to talk about prejudice

29:38

and bigotry and how to tackle the

29:40

deep inequities of race, class,

29:42

and cast He also gives

29:44

dozens of lectures a year at universities

29:47

and I'll, you know, at the end of the

29:49

lecture, I'll do a Q and A. There'll be

29:51

some students standing off in the distance, not

29:54

doing anything. It's kind of milling around. When

29:56

the crowd dissipates and goes away from the podium,

29:59

he or she will then approach me and

30:01

they'll like, look around, make sure nobody's with an ear

30:03

shot and they'll say, oh, you know, I enjoyed your

30:05

lecture, mister Davis.

30:07

You know I was raised that way. My mother

30:10

is in the clan, or my father's a neo

30:12

Nazi. You know, this is how how I grew

30:14

up. But now I'm here at University

30:16

of whatever and m my

30:19

my my boyfriend h is Jewish

30:22

or my girlfriend is black, and

30:25

I can't bring I can't bring that person home.

30:27

My parents will kill me or you know, or they'll

30:29

disown me. And how do they go

30:31

home and tell their parents that their parents

30:33

were wrong? You

30:35

know, their parents wanted them to go and get an education,

30:38

but they didn't want them to get that education. So

30:41

they've got this secret burning on

30:43

their chest. You know that just has to

30:46

come out. And I'm one of the perfect

30:48

persons that, you know that they can talk to about it. And

30:51

I'll sit down and talk with them and you know,

30:53

give them some advice and things like that and try to smooth

30:55

things out for them. You know, he help them out.

30:58

Um. You know, I get a lot of those kinds

31:00

of emails. Guys, you want

31:02

me to talk to their brother, or some kid wants

31:04

me to talk to their parents, or some wife wants

31:06

me to talk to her husband. We need something

31:08

like a race anonymous kind of thing, And

31:11

I'm planning on having a museum

31:14

one day. In my museum, I'm going

31:16

to have a component for people

31:18

to come and talk about, you

31:20

know, racist spouses or racist parents,

31:23

or racist siblings or something like that, so

31:25

there will be an outlet for them and

31:27

hopefully, hopefully that can be replicated around

31:30

the country. We spent

31:32

so much of this interview talking about how

31:35

you inspire changing others, and I'm wondering

31:37

how this whole experience changed

31:40

you. I I just thought I'd

31:42

meet these people, get my information, write

31:44

my book, and be done, never see them again. What

31:47

what you and I and everybody else has

31:49

heard as children is this. A

31:52

tiger does not change his stripes, a leopard

31:54

does not change his spots, So why

31:56

would we think that a clansman would change his ideology?

32:00

You know, people are who they

32:02

are. But when somebody started changing,

32:04

and then it happened again and again and again, I

32:06

realized I was onto something. So what can

32:09

what can be learned can also be unlearned.

32:12

I cannot stop doing this work, so I'm

32:14

making just as much time between

32:17

my music and doing this kind of work because

32:19

I love my country and I want

32:21

to see it improve. We spend

32:24

too much time in this country talking

32:26

about the other person, talking

32:28

at the other person, and talking

32:31

past the other person. I prefer

32:33

to talk with the other person and

32:35

that has been the key to my success. Hey,

32:59

thanks for listening. See you next week

33:01

for my conversation with comedian and actress

33:03

Tiffany Hattish Girl. If

33:06

I hadn't gone through all the stuff that I've been through,

33:08

I would not be funny at awe Like

33:11

if you think about it, like everything that I

33:13

am capable of, that how am I able to access

33:16

it? Comes from all

33:18

of the tragedy.

33:29

A Slight Change of Plans is created

33:31

an executive produced by me Maya Schunker.

33:34

Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,

33:36

including our producer Mola Board,

33:38

associate producers David Jaw and Julia

33:41

Goodman, executive producers Mia

33:43

Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior

33:45

editor Jen Guera, and sound

33:47

design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday

33:50

and Jason Gambrel. Thanks

33:52

also to Louise Gara who wrote our theme

33:54

song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange the

33:56

vocals. Incidental music

33:58

from Epidemic Sound, and of

34:00

course a very special thanks to Jimmy

34:03

Lee. You can follow a slight change

34:05

of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya

34:07

Shunker. So,

34:18

Daryl, one of the things that really captivated

34:20

me on a personal level about your story is that

34:23

you are a musician. I

34:25

was also a musician in the younger part of

34:27

my life, and I studied classical

34:30

violin. Okay, if I have to correct you

34:32

on something. You said that you were a musician,

34:34

let me tell you Something's a musician, always

34:37

a musician. So you're still a musician. Oh

34:39

I love that. Thank you. I

34:42

think my technique would would violate

34:44

that assumption, but I think in my heart I

34:46

am a musician. I'll give you that