0:14

Pushkin.

0:30

You know, I looked around at my friends and I was like, well, why doesn't

0:32

this love matter? Why have I been told that this

0:34

love doesn't count? It called

0:37

into the question some of the beliefs that I

0:39

had about romantic versus platonic

0:41

love. I thought that those messages were

0:43

actively harming me, and that they might be harming

0:45

other people too.

0:47

That's doctor Marissa Franco, a psychologist

0:50

and an expert on friendship. Society

0:53

often teaches us that friendship is secondary

0:55

to other relationships like family

0:57

or romantic partners, and Marissa

1:00

wants to change that. In

1:02

our conversation, she shares some helpful

1:04

strategies to enrich the quality of

1:07

our friendships, including a

1:09

concept known as mutuality.

1:11

Mutuality is different from a lot of the ways

1:14

that we think about friendship in terms of like we

1:16

might think of it as reciprocity, like I reach out

1:18

this time, you should reach out the next time. But

1:20

mutuality is taking a step back

1:23

to look at the broader

1:25

dynamics that are going on for each of

1:27

us and figuring

1:29

out whose needs make sense to

1:32

prioritize in this given situation.

1:37

On today's episode, we explore the

1:39

science of friendship. Why

1:41

it matters more than we might think, and

1:44

what we can do to make new friends and keep

1:46

the ones we have. I'm

1:53

Maya Shunker, and this is a slight change

1:56

of plans, a show about who we are

1:58

and who we become in the face of a big

2:00

change.

2:14

Marisa is the author of the book Platonic,

2:17

How the Science of Attachment can help You Make

2:19

and keep Friends. She realized

2:22

just how important friendship was to her when

2:24

she was in her early twenties and navigating

2:26

a painful breakup.

2:28

I think I just felt that if I couldn't

2:30

maintain this romantic relationship, then

2:33

I wasn't lovable. I didn't have any love

2:35

in my life, and I was feeling

2:37

so miserable. I think in part because of

2:39

those beliefs and to heal, I

2:41

ended up asking my friend HEATHERN, what

2:44

if we start this wellness group. We can meet up, practice

2:46

wellness, cook do yoga, go

2:49

on walks, have dinner. And

2:51

I thought that would really help me heal my grief.

2:54

And it did. Like meeting

2:56

up with these friends every week totally

2:58

healed me. It wasn't because we were meditating

3:01

or doing yoga, it was just being in community

3:03

with people that I loved that loved

3:05

me every week. And I think another

3:07

reason why that group really healed me is

3:09

that it called into question some

3:12

of the beliefs that I had that had caused me to

3:14

take this break up so hard, which

3:17

was here I was thinking I didn't have love

3:19

in my life when I had evidence of just how loved

3:21

I was every week, Like I could no longer

3:24

engage in that lie that I didn't have love.

3:27

You know, I felt like, well, I don't think this is just

3:29

me. I think this really reflects

3:31

something larger in our culture

3:34

that's really harming and hurting us all,

3:36

and so understanding it not

3:38

just as my own lived experience, but as a

3:40

larger societal cultural problem or

3:43

issue that we had is really what

3:45

drove me to want to write Platonic. Yeah.

3:47

I mean, this is one of the reasons I was obsessed

3:50

with having you on a slight Change of Plans is

3:52

because I think your work does speak

3:54

to this larger cultural issue, which is

3:56

that we deprioritize friendship

3:58

to a third rate relationship. And

4:01

I was thinking back to my

4:03

past and the views that I had, and I

4:05

absolutely grew up thinking that romantic

4:09

relationships sit at the top of

4:11

the relationship hierarchy, and that if you don't

4:13

have that, it really doesn't matter

4:16

how many friends you have or how high quality

4:18

those friendships are.

4:19

Exactly yep. I had definitely

4:22

felt the same way. And you know, I guess

4:24

we even hear things like you need one person to

4:26

complete you, which really made

4:28

me feel like I didn't have a sense of self

4:30

without having a romantic

4:32

partner. And also like, why do

4:34

we think that one template fits

4:36

for everybody? I think that when

4:39

we have a cultural narrative that's so crushing,

4:42

it can get hard for people to actually

4:44

discern, like what do I actually want in my life? What's

4:46

actually best for me? Like would I prefer

4:49

a life where I have a large network of friends

4:51

and am single. But yeah,

4:53

when your society teaches you that if

4:56

you make that choice, you're less of a person,

4:58

people aren't as free to actually discern what

5:00

is the life that I actually want for myself.

5:03

You know, the argument you make in your book is

5:05

that we need to reclaim

5:08

friendship and to the status that

5:10

it deserves. So let's start there.

5:12

I read in your book that there's

5:14

a very interesting connection that exists between

5:17

friendship and self identity, and

5:19

that's a connection I'd never really thought about before,

5:21

So can you tell us a bit more about this connection.

5:24

So I think each person that

5:26

we interact with is an advertisement for

5:28

the kaleidoscope of ways in which we can live

5:31

and the ways that people show up

5:33

in the world, or how we learn to

5:35

show up in the world too, Like that learning

5:37

happens through being able to

5:39

see a friend engage at a certain hobby or

5:41

interest and you're like, maybe I would like that hobby

5:43

or interests. Like it's that exposure that we get through

5:45

each friend. And so in that way,

5:47

it's like each person that we interact

5:49

with can bring out a new and different side of our

5:51

identity. And so when we're only interacting

5:54

with one person, it's like, well, a spouse,

5:56

which we've been told should be, you know, the

5:59

only relationship we need to feel complete. Sometimes

6:01

it's like we only have one experience of ourself

6:03

and all of the parts of ourselves that maybe

6:06

aren't aligned with what our spouse likes, not

6:08

because you're incompact with your spouse, but just

6:10

because you're different people with different hobbies

6:12

and different interests. Those parts

6:14

of you might not come out when you're only

6:16

interacting with them. And so it requires

6:19

us to be in community

6:21

with different types of people, to experience

6:23

the different sides of ourselves, and to have our

6:26

identities fan out.

6:29

And I think that this was a sense, at least I got

6:31

a sense in the pandemic when I was living

6:33

with a partner and still feeling

6:36

like unease or still feeling like it's

6:39

a weird sort of malaise

6:41

when you're just like, I don't know, my identity is kind

6:43

of scrunching inward, like I would hang out

6:45

with my friends and feel like I'm just filling with

6:47

life. I don't know, I just have different emotions

6:50

that tend to come up around different people. And

6:52

so I was experiencing my palette of

6:54

emotions more greatly.

6:57

And I think that's really important, because I think there's a

6:59

lot of feeling gray and feeling bleak or

7:01

feeling kind of numb, and so it almost

7:03

made me feel more alive to feel like, Oh, with this

7:05

friend, I'm like laughing and we're

7:08

joking about this thing, and we're excited

7:10

about this other thing. And that might

7:12

have been part of why they just made me feel like more

7:14

expansive and more live when I interacted

7:17

with them.

7:18

Marissa, I'm curious. Is there research

7:20

showing that there's a strong connection between

7:23

friendship and our physical

7:25

and mental health.

7:26

Yeah. So there's a study that found that

7:28

people that were exposed to the virus

7:30

that causes the common cold, for example, were less

7:32

likely to actually contract the common

7:35

cold when they had a diversity of support,

7:37

when they weren't just relying on a spouse, but relying

7:39

on different people for support

7:41

in their lives. And there's other research

7:43

that just links having a diversity of support

7:45

to your general sense of well being

7:48

overall.

7:49

I love the research Marisa that shows that

7:52

healthy, strong friendships are associated

7:55

with more resilience and our other relationships.

7:57

Do you mind sharing a bit more about that.

7:59

Yeah, I love this research too, because I think it's unfortunate

8:02

that we sometimes perceive our romantic

8:04

relationships and our friendships as antagonistic,

8:07

like, oh, you're hanging out with your friends, you're not hanging out out

8:09

with me, instead of well, you're hanging out with your

8:11

friends. That's great. Now we can have more quality connection

8:13

when you come back, definitely, which is the

8:15

truth, because you know, research finds

8:17

that, for example, if I make a friend, not only am

8:20

I less depressed, but my romantic

8:22

partner is also likely to be less depressed.

8:24

So what can improve when partner's mental

8:26

health will likely improve the other partner's mental

8:29

health. And that's what we see when people make friends.

8:31

There's research that finds that when spouses are

8:33

in a state of conflict, it

8:36

negatively impacts their release of the stress

8:38

hormone cortisol, but not when they have that

8:40

quality connection outside of the marriage

8:42

as well. And so it's just

8:44

like, if you're just relying on your spouse, whatever

8:47

happens in that relationship is going

8:49

to be so deterministic for how you're doing overall.

8:52

But if you have quality connection outside of the

8:54

marriage, it's like you have a buffer,

8:56

you know, you kind of have a shield. Like if things aren't

8:59

going well, that doesn't mean that you're completely

9:02

sunk internally because you can

9:04

rely on these outside resources as

9:06

a pick me up.

9:08

Okay, so Marisa, you've

9:10

convinced us that friendship is important, right,

9:12

is something that we should all be working

9:14

to invest in. I'm wondering if we

9:16

can get tactical at this stage and if

9:19

we can learn from you how we can do a

9:21

better job of making friends in adulthood.

9:24

I think an issue that we have is that we think

9:26

friendship will happen in adulthood like

9:28

it did in childhood, which means we

9:31

won't have to try and be intentional. And

9:33

there's a sociologist, Rebecca Adams, and she

9:36

says, when we have repeated, unplanned

9:38

interaction and shared vulnerability,

9:41

that's when friendships happen more organically

9:44

in your adult life. It's like, do you see people in a

9:46

way that's repeated over time even though it's not

9:48

planned, like work, for example, and

9:51

do you have your guard down? And at

9:53

work, I don't know if people have their guard downs, like

9:55

they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might be

9:57

outside of the workplace. So basically

10:00

what that means is like as adults,

10:02

we don't have that same environment we had

10:04

as kids to just rely on friendship

10:06

happening. We can't assume

10:08

that it happens organically anymore like

10:11

we're going to have to try. And in fact, one study

10:13

found that people that thought friendship

10:15

happened without effort were

10:18

more lonely over time, whereas those

10:20

that saw it is happening based on effort, We're less

10:22

lonely over time, and they're also more likely to actually

10:24

make that effort so I think, you

10:26

know, by showing up at a place of worship

10:29

or a hobby or interest group. So you

10:31

know, when we understand it as not happening

10:33

organically, we understand that, Okay,

10:35

that means I'm going to have to make

10:37

a choice to do something in my

10:40

life to find friends.

10:43

Can you tell us a bit more about why repeated

10:45

interactions are so important when it comes

10:47

to facilitating friendship.

10:49

Yeah, so it's because of something called

10:52

the mirror exposure effect, which the

10:54

mere exposure effect describes our tendency to

10:57

like things that are familiar and for people

10:59

to like us the more that we become

11:02

familiar. If you continue to be exposed

11:04

to someone, they don't harm you, then you feel trust with them.

11:07

And so I think when we have that repeated

11:09

interaction, mere exposure

11:11

increases we like them more, they like

11:13

us more. And if we do want to

11:15

initiate an interaction and say

11:17

something like hey, I've really enjoyed

11:20

talking to you, would love to connect further,

11:22

you open to exchanging contact information.

11:24

We're just more likely to be successful

11:27

versus when we've seen someone once, maybe

11:29

at like a lecture at a bar, and then we

11:31

ask them to hang out.

11:33

You know, one reason we fear

11:35

intitiating friendship is that, of course

11:37

most of us are afraid of rejection. And

11:40

so what's your advice to us

11:42

to help us overcome this kind of anxiety.

11:45

Well, the research finds that people

11:47

like you more than you think they do.

11:49

Me specifically right now, I'm

11:51

just kidding.

11:52

Yeah, you specifically the rest of us were

11:56

it's gonna be rough out there that

11:58

basically, when strangers interact, they

12:01

then underestimate how like they are by

12:03

the other person. And the more self critical

12:05

you are, the more pronounced this underestimation

12:08

is. And so generally people like

12:10

us more than we might think. Like our

12:12

brain is kind of programmed with this negativity

12:14

bias where we register negative

12:17

information more than positive, which means our predictions

12:19

as to how we're coming off are often more cynical

12:21

than the actual truth. So people

12:24

are less likely to reject you than you think. And

12:26

I also tell people to assume people

12:28

like them, because the research

12:31

finds that when people are told, you know, based

12:33

on your personality profile, you

12:35

will be liked. And this is a lie

12:38

from the researchers, just deceiving people, but

12:40

they actually go out into a group and they become warmer

12:43

open and friendlier, and so it becomes

12:45

a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas

12:47

we know that people are who are more rejection

12:50

sensitive, who tend to see rejection

12:53

when it's not there, like, oh, my friend

12:55

didn't text me back, or my friend

12:57

came to this show and they didn't sit right next

12:59

to me, Does that mean they don't like me? They

13:01

actually tend to reject people. They become

13:03

more cold, they become more withdrawn,

13:06

and then people reject them back after

13:08

you know they've been rejected. So in

13:11

some ways, when we always think we're being

13:13

rejected, it also influences our

13:15

behavior to make that rejection more of a self

13:17

fulfilling prophecy too.

13:19

So to summarize, there is a This

13:22

is so interesting because I talked with Vanessa Bonds

13:24

for this show as well, and she calls

13:27

this the liking gap, right, And I'm assuming that's what you're referring

13:29

to, which is the liking gap. So there's

13:31

a gap between our expectations

13:33

of how much people really like us versus how

13:35

much we think they like us. And the good

13:37

news is that they tend to like us more than we think,

13:39

So that's reassuring, yes, And then The second

13:42

is just remember that it is

13:44

a self fulfilling prophecy. So play

13:46

the part of someone who believes they are likable

13:49

and lovable and worthy of friendship love.

13:51

And the more you do that, the more your

13:53

best traits are recruited from you. Whereas

13:56

if you go into a situation believing you'll get rejected,

13:58

that will bring out the worst sides of you.

14:00

Right exactly. You know, that is a really

14:03

great point. Really, when I see people act

14:05

in very harmful ways in their friendship, it's

14:07

because they think people don't care about them,

14:09

right, So I never reach out to my friends because

14:11

I think they're going to see it as a burden. It's

14:14

just when we think someone is going to reject us, it

14:16

licenses us to engage in all types

14:18

of harmful and crappy behaviors because we're

14:20

like, they're not going to care anyway if I ghost them, So I

14:22

guess I'm just going to ghost them because they don't really care about

14:25

me. And so in some ways,

14:27

I think that's why believing people care about you

14:29

and believing people love you causes

14:31

you to be a lot

14:34

better of a friend.

14:36

After the break, Marisa tells us how

14:38

we can be better friends to the people who

14:40

are already in our lives. We'll

14:42

be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.

14:51

So we've talked up to this point about

14:53

how it is that we can do a better job

14:56

making new friends. Now I'd love

14:58

to pivot to how we can do a better

15:00

job of investing in and maintaining

15:02

our current friendships. Yes, what are

15:04

the factors that we should keep in mind?

15:07

So when it comes to to keeping

15:10

friends. That makes me think about this theory

15:12

called risk regulation theory, which was originally

15:14

created for romantic partners, but I think applies

15:16

for friends too. And it's this idea

15:19

that we decide how much to invest in a relationship

15:21

based on our likelihood of being rejected. And

15:24

the more that we can convey to someone that

15:26

we won't reject them, the more they

15:28

can invest in the relationship with us.

15:31

And so showing affection

15:33

towards friends, being generous towards

15:35

friends, anything that shows someone that you love

15:37

and you value them is going

15:40

to help the friendship. It's going to deepen

15:42

the friendship. Anything that shows care, consideration,

15:45

investment in the other person, because that's a sign to

15:47

that other person, like, oh, now I can

15:49

invest in this relationship. It's safe for me to invest because

15:51

of how much investment they've shown in me. And

15:53

so I talk in my book about, for example, like

15:56

generosity, affection, even I think vulnerability

15:59

in some ways, like when people are vulnerable

16:01

with us, that conveys to us that they trust

16:04

us, and it makes us more likely to be

16:06

vulnerable with them. All of these behaviors

16:08

that show up investment are going to better our relationships.

16:10

But we can also talk about misconcept

16:13

called mutuality, and mutuality

16:16

is different from a lot of the ways that we think about

16:18

friendship in terms of we might think of it as reciprocity.

16:21

I reach out this time, you should reach out the next time.

16:23

But mutuality is like taking

16:25

a step back to look at the

16:28

broader dynamics that

16:30

are going on for each of us and

16:32

figuring out whose needs

16:34

make sense to prioritize in this given

16:37

situation. So what I mean by that maya

16:39

is that there might be times when my friend is

16:41

in a lot of stress, you know, going through mental

16:43

health issues, just had a newborn baby,

16:46

where I can't expect mutuality because I understand

16:48

that I have greater capacity than they do. And

16:51

then at other times you know, they might be investing

16:53

more in me, Like Michelle Obama also talked about

16:55

this in her new book, like a relationship

16:57

is never going to be fifty to fifty, and I see

16:59

that in terms of long term friendships

17:02

too. There's going to be a period when you're giving

17:04

more, there's going to be a period when you're getting

17:06

more. And it's like the measure of equality

17:08

is more so in life, like the larger scheme of

17:10

things.

17:11

Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that, because one

17:13

of my best friends recently came over

17:15

to share that she was pregnant, and she

17:17

and her husband were here, and they joked, we're

17:20

actually here to say our goodbyes, Maya

17:22

and Jimmy, it's been so wonderful being

17:24

friends with you. And of course she's nodding

17:26

to the fact that, you know, first time parents kind

17:28

of disappear for an extended period

17:30

in those early years. And you

17:33

know, it was a joke, but it did actually lead

17:35

me to have a candid conversation with her

17:38

a couple weeks later about how,

17:40

for the first time ever since we met

17:42

in college when we were teenagers, our

17:45

lives are diverging in this really

17:47

profound way. And so I'm wondering

17:49

if you have advice for me

17:52

in this case and listeners as

17:54

well, about how to navigate friendships

17:56

when our lives feel like they're entering

17:58

completely different phases.

18:01

I love the fact that you had a conversation

18:04

with your friend, because I think part

18:06

of the reason why friendships tend to tear when we

18:08

move into these different stages is because we

18:10

rely on a set of assumptions like,

18:12

oh, this person as a kid, they have no time to talk to me,

18:14

they don't want to hear from me, or people

18:16

that have kids being like my single friend just thinks

18:18

my life is boring and they don't want to be around

18:21

my kids, so I can't hang out with them. And

18:23

it's the set of assumptions that tends to pull us

18:25

apart, whereas when we can actually have the conversation,

18:28

okay, like I would love to still hang out sometime,

18:30

What does that look like for you? Does it mean I have to come

18:32

over after the kid is put to bed? How

18:34

comfortable are you hanging out with the kid around?

18:37

What are your boundaries around this? Instead of I'm

18:39

just gonna assume that you're too busy to ever talk to me

18:41

again, you can affirm

18:44

an identity and a friend even though it's not

18:46

your own, even it's not one that you would choose for yourself,

18:48

but realizing that it's right for them. And that's

18:50

actually related to maintaining

18:52

best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening

18:55

best friendships over time when you can do that. And so

18:57

that looks like, even if we don't have the same life

18:59

experience, let's still show interest in our differences.

19:02

Let's still show interest in what's it like for you

19:04

to be a mom, or what's it like for you to live your child

19:06

this life? What are you doing with that? And instead

19:09

of I'm assuming that because we have this difference,

19:11

it's not something that we can connect on,

19:13

because we do look for friendships

19:15

for commonality but also for expansion. And

19:18

so now this friendship is going to provide you

19:20

an opportunity to expand and be like, oh,

19:22

this is what it's like when someone really close to me has

19:24

a kid, and these are what their concerns are, these

19:26

are the things that stress them out, and just maintain

19:28

curiosity about that.

19:30

Yeah, touches back on a point

19:32

you were making earlier in our conversation Marissa

19:34

about how friendships can be mind

19:36

expanding in this really powerful

19:38

way. Right, you felt so alive when these

19:41

parts of yourself were tapped into or you were learning

19:43

about new aspects of the world. And I

19:45

really love that reframe, and I think it's one

19:47

I'll carry with me as my friend

19:49

has this child. And another thing

19:52

that she and I talked about in this conversation was

19:54

the long term nature of our friendship. So we

19:57

kind of acknowledge there might be some speed

19:59

bumps, there might be some harder moments

20:01

in time in the short term, but let's

20:04

not forget that we are committed for life

20:06

as friends.

20:07

I love that.

20:07

Yeah, I found the converse pretty therapeutic

20:10

because I think I was having a lot of anxiety around

20:12

what would happen to this best friendship

20:14

of mine, and so it felt good

20:17

to confront it head on, even though I was a little nervous

20:19

to have the conversation.

20:21

I think that's really awesome. I think

20:23

that's really really awesome, And it

20:25

reminds me of the study on long distance

20:27

friendships that maintaining them was kind

20:30

of looking at the times when you don't

20:32

talk as flexible not fragile,

20:34

like friendship can eb and flow if we have an Ebb. Let's

20:36

not assume the friendship is over and never reengage,

20:38

but instead it assume that this is part of

20:41

the life story of the friendship. There's going to be moments

20:43

where we're spread apart, and then there's going to be moments

20:46

where we come back together again.

20:48

Yeah, and you're reminding me this moment with this particular

20:50

friend. We already share that in our

20:52

history. So we were inseparable.

20:54

We were attached at the hip when we were in college, and then

20:56

she studied abroad for a period of time, and

20:59

then obviously communication went down for a bit, and

21:01

then a couple of years later, the intensity

21:03

of our communications increased. I mean, there's

21:05

been that waxing and waning already, and

21:07

yet here we are in current days with a very stable,

21:10

healthy friendship. And so it's nice

21:12

to be able to look back at that historical data

21:14

point as evidence that we can

21:16

get through these periods

21:18

where things go up and down.

21:20

I mean, yeah, And I was on a podcast

21:22

with someone who was I think he was in the sixties and

21:24

he never had kids, and he was like, just remember,

21:27

your friendships are going to come back. Their kids

21:29

are going to leave the nests, and then it's going to be

21:31

like, you're back in your twenties, like how much time you

21:33

want to spend with your friends.

21:34

I'm like, wow, yeah, she's gonna need me

21:36

eventually, and that she's an empty

21:38

nester.

21:39

I love it.

21:40

I love it.

21:42

So you know, I mentioned Marisa that I felt a little bit

21:44

of anxiety when it came to raising this

21:46

topic with my friend. And speaking

21:48

of anxiety, one area that can cause

21:51

us a lot of anxiety

21:53

is fighting in the context of friendship.

21:55

And in part this is.

21:57

Because we're led to believe that it's

21:59

unreasonable for us to have big

22:02

arguments with our friends, because after all,

22:04

they're just our friends, right, But you say

22:06

in your book it's actually quite important to

22:09

fight in friendship. Empower

22:11

us in this moment, empower us to

22:13

have those difficult conversations

22:16

with friends where in the moment

22:18

it feels easier just pushing under the rug, but

22:20

that's not actually in the long term best interest of

22:22

the friendship.

22:23

Yeah, this was like my biggest growth area

22:25

in friendships that I was like, being a

22:27

good friend means me getting over it, totally

22:31

getting over the problem that I have in

22:33

this friendship, and then realizing, oh,

22:35

I'm actually like just withdrawing, I'm

22:37

not actually just getting over it, and it's

22:40

hurting and harming my friendships. And so I started

22:42

to read all this research that you know, people who

22:44

really value friendship tend to actually address

22:47

problems instead of just ignoring them, and that open

22:49

empathic conflict is correlated

22:52

with deeper intimacy, and so

22:54

I was like, wow, am I actually missing

22:57

out on this opportunity for intimacy by

22:59

trying to ignore the conflict.

23:01

And there's a psychoanalysts, Virginia Goldner,

23:03

who talks about how you can have flaccid safety,

23:06

which is basically we're close because we

23:08

pretend there's no or any problems or dynamic

23:10

safety where you could actually rupture and repair and

23:12

rupture and repair. And then you have a president that

23:14

whenever a problem comes up, we

23:17

know that we can actually address it and make

23:19

it better instead of our only options being to

23:21

just injure or walk away. And

23:23

so I just was like, hm, maybe

23:26

I actually need to address problems with

23:28

my friends. And that was another way where I

23:30

compartmentalize intimacy, right, because I

23:32

knew in my romantic partnerships that I

23:35

was going to have to address problems and work

23:37

through issues and you're about marriage

23:39

is hard, you're going to have to, you know, work

23:42

through all these problems together, and not realizing

23:44

that part of intimacy is conflict and so friendship

23:47

is also going to require the same set of skills.

23:50

And the other thing that I realized was that I

23:52

was conflicating conflict with combat,

23:55

when in fact, conflict could look like reconciliation.

23:58

And so it was me learning to do things

24:00

like frame the conversation as an act

24:02

of love, like Hey, I want to talk about

24:04

this because you're so important to me, you know, and

24:07

I know you're having kids and I'm so excited for

24:09

you, and you know, I have some anxieties

24:11

about whether we're going to stay close, so I figured I

24:14

would bring it up so we could still find a way to stay

24:16

close through this big life change of ours. And

24:18

then using eye statements like

24:20

yeah, I've been feeling a little nervous about

24:22

how this could impact their closeness, and

24:25

then perspective taking, which looks like the

24:27

mutuality of as you share your feelings,

24:29

how do you feel? What are you thinking, and

24:31

then asking for what you need in the future, like you

24:34

know, maybe i'd still like to see you like

24:36

once a month or twice a month, how would that

24:38

work out for you? And so I think healthy

24:41

conflict looks like wading into the ambivalence,

24:43

like a part of me is afraid too. We actually

24:45

feel some of the same things as

24:47

this big change or this issue in our friendship has come

24:50

up.

24:51

I really resonate with the frame

24:53

the conversation as an affirmation of love. I'm

24:55

thinking about one of my closest friends,

24:57

and you know, at times he's like, can't we

24:59

just let this go? Shunks? Shunks is like

25:02

nicknames among my friends. He's like, can't we

25:04

just why do we have to discuss these things?

25:06

You know, can't we just let it? And I told him,

25:08

I was like, hey, you do realize that I

25:10

don't put in this effort with everyone, right, It's

25:12

because I care so much about

25:15

you and our communication and

25:17

our lifelong friendship that I do

25:19

try to conflict resolve and problem solve

25:21

and obviously like there's a happy medium. But it

25:24

was I think that was really affirming for him. I feel

25:26

like he it changed the whole spin on

25:28

why it was that I was initiating these kinds

25:30

of uncomfortable conversations.

25:33

Absolutely, and I think as a professor I really

25:35

tried to be intentional about making my students feel

25:37

safe, and what comes out of that is they demand

25:39

so much more of me. And I remember

25:41

hearing from this psychologist who studies narcissists.

25:44

She said, the most toxic person

25:47

is the least confronted. And so if

25:49

your friends are coming up to you to address

25:51

an issue, maybe it's not a sign that you're a crappy

25:54

friend. Maybe it's a sign that they feel safe enough to

25:56

actually bring up a problem instead

25:58

of trying to ignore it.

25:59

Yeah, that's a really excellent way of seeing

26:02

it. You wouldn't invest the time in

26:04

someone that you didn't You wouldn't feel vulnerable

26:07

enough to bring this up with someone that you didn't

26:09

in this deep way trust exactly. And

26:12

so it's actually an ode to the quality

26:14

of the friendship that you're having these conversations.

26:18

There are some cases, of course, where,

26:21

for whatever reason transitions in life

26:24

the nature of the relationship, you actually

26:26

feel it's important to break up with

26:28

a friend, and that can be extremely

26:30

uncomfortable. What do you recommend

26:33

that people do in a situation like that

26:35

where they just realize this friendship

26:37

just isn't serving me anymore, It's not

26:39

good for either of us, you know, whatever the reason is,

26:42

it feels it's such

26:44

a hard space Marsa, because there's

26:46

an expectation in society that we break

26:49

up with significant others. I mean, that's just like part of

26:51

the cultural narrative that happens. But the

26:53

idea of breaking up with a friend just feels

26:56

almost a bit foreign and a little taboo.

26:58

And yeah, help me make sense

27:00

of this.

27:02

Yeah, So, I think it

27:04

depends on whether

27:06

the other person is still invested in you or not. If

27:09

it seems mutual and the other person's pulling

27:11

away, you're pulling away, then I think it's

27:13

fine to just kind of pull away and let it be. But

27:16

if the other person continues to seem invested in a

27:18

friendship with you and you're no longer invested in

27:20

a friendship with them, the kindest

27:22

thing to do is to tell them, because

27:24

if you don't tell them, you trigger something called

27:27

ambiguous loss, which is when we have a

27:29

lot of trouble processing our grief because

27:31

we don't have any closure, and it's almost

27:33

like they're gonna end up grieving twice

27:35

because you weren't able to muster up the

27:37

courage to have a conversation, so it's

27:39

quite meaning, but it doesn't feel mean. That's

27:41

the thing I think with something like ghosting, there's such emotional

27:44

incongruence between the experience

27:46

of being the ghoster and receiving the ghosting,

27:49

Like it's like, oh, I just kind of forgot about it, but

27:51

the other person is like, it's keeping them up at night and they're ruminating

27:53

on it. So I think it's really important to remember

27:55

that in congruence, because if we don't, we

27:58

might be like, well, it's no sweat for me. So

28:00

I think it's fine, right, And then

28:02

they are just gonna make up all types of stories because

28:04

our brain has this negativity bias, the stories are

28:06

probably gonna be a lot meaner than what you're going to tell

28:08

them. So yeah, I suggest

28:11

you know, having a conversation

28:13

about it. It's not cruel. You're talking about

28:16

yourself and your own experience and how your

28:18

needs have changed. And I hope that

28:20

this conversation happens after you've

28:23

tried to address the problem with them and

28:25

given them a chance to repair it, and it hasn't

28:27

necessarily worked unless it's a big betrayal. Of course,

28:30

you know, if the big betrayal then it

28:32

might be one thing that really has broken the friendship. But

28:34

if it's something like smaller on going, like sometimes

28:37

I feel like in our conversations, you don't

28:39

give space to like hear about me, and we're mostly

28:41

focused on you. Like I hope that you have that conversation

28:44

before deciding to end the friendship, but

28:46

you know, if it's coming to a point where you're just like, you know, sometimes

28:49

I feel like we have really incompatible

28:51

communication styles and that

28:53

leaves me leaving our interactions feeling like kind

28:56

of sad. And that's why I'm feeling like

28:58

this friendship isn't necessarily working

29:00

out for us anymore. Maybe you are

29:03

trying to engage with me in a certain way, but I

29:05

just haven't been reading it that way, and so that's

29:07

why this friendship really hasn't felt like it's working

29:09

for me, you know, adding like I

29:11

just wanted to make sure I was being upfront

29:14

and transparent with you moving forward something

29:17

like that. It sounds cruel,

29:20

but it's a lot less cruel than

29:23

not giving someone any closure.

29:26

Yeah, one piece of advice

29:28

I took away from your book is that when a

29:30

friendship ends for whatever reason, we

29:32

really need to give ourselves the space to grief

29:35

because you talk about the fact

29:37

that in our society, pain

29:39

associated with the loss of friendship is devalued.

29:42

Yeah, it's this term called disenfranchised grief,

29:44

which is like, when society doesn't legitimize

29:47

our loss, we can't legitimize

29:49

it ourselves internally, and we might

29:51

invalidate our own grief process. And there's

29:54

one thing you should know about grief, it's that you

29:56

can't just suppress it and push it away. That you actually

29:58

have to feel the grief for it to be released

30:01

from you. And so that's why I think a

30:03

lot of people that lose

30:05

really close friends feel very isolated,

30:07

feel very alienated, can feel preoccupied

30:10

that the loss for such a long period

30:12

of time because they feel

30:15

like their loss is valid

30:17

and their loss is significant, while their body's

30:19

telling them the opposite message that this is

30:21

a big loss for you, that you have to feel this and

30:24

that you have to acknowledge it. And so

30:26

that's one of the reasons why some

30:28

people are like, friendship breakups hurt even

30:30

more than divorce

30:32

or romantic relationship breakup.

30:34

Yeah. I've been reading a lot of writing on this

30:37

topic recently, and there are many many

30:39

people who have said that their friendship's

30:41

ending exactly as you say. We're far more painful

30:44

than any romantic relationship that came

30:46

to an end. So I'm at least grateful that

30:48

you're giving us strategies for trying

30:51

to end the friendships with

30:53

a bit more closure to the extent that can help us

30:55

heal or help the other person heal. How

30:58

has working in this space changed

31:00

the way that you think about the friends in your life,

31:02

Like, is there any anecdote that comes to mind

31:04

in which you think, ooh. As a result of exploring

31:07

this research for years, I'm now engage with

31:09

my friends differently.

31:11

So I aspire to hold

31:13

friendship at the same regard as I do romantic

31:16

relationships, especially for my closest

31:18

friends in my life. So

31:20

I had a friend she was coming back from Mexico

31:23

and arriving back from the

31:25

airport at like twelve thirty

31:27

am, and I was contemplating

31:29

whether I wanted to pick her up, and I was like, I'm so tired,

31:32

I'm in bed by twelve midnight. And I

31:35

asked myself would I

31:37

offer to pick up my romantic partner?

31:40

And I was like, yeah, absolutely, Like

31:42

I would stay up to pick up my romantic partner, and

31:44

so then I decided that I would

31:46

go offer to pick her up from the airport too, and

31:49

I did, and I realized this is the work.

31:51

And what was your friend's reaction to that? Like,

31:53

what impact do you think that had on your friendship?

31:55

Oh, my gosh, I think it really changed

31:57

our friendship. I

32:00

think she realized that I was really invested

32:02

in the friendship. Once she realized

32:04

I was invested, she started to invest. Like

32:06

all my plants died because it got too cold,

32:09

and she noticed that, and she just came

32:11

over and bought a plant for me. And

32:14

then since then we've just been like hanging out

32:16

a lot more often, because I think there's this

32:18

freedom that comes from knowing this person loves

32:20

you and is intentionally trying to invest in you that

32:23

allows each of us to engage in a lot more

32:25

of the risky behaviors that promote intimacy.

32:28

I'd love to enter conversation with a

32:30

piece of research that you talk about in your book,

32:33

and it's about how we tend

32:35

to have the wrong idea about what people

32:38

value in us as friends. Yeah,

32:40

and understanding this can actually be quite empowering.

32:42

Can you tell us more Yeah.

32:44

So this is a study where people were asked to rate the

32:47

most important traits in a friend and I

32:49

think before studying friendship, I thought that trait

32:51

was being charismatic or entertaining

32:54

or funny, that it was about

32:56

kind of like putting on a show to

32:58

get people to like you. But the number

33:00

one trait people valued was this concept

33:03

ego support, which is someone making you feel like

33:05

you matter and someone making you feel

33:07

really valued and really loved. And I think

33:09

this message is really hopeful because some

33:11

people think that if I want to make friends, I have

33:14

to change fundamentally who I am. And

33:16

it's not about who you are. Making friends

33:18

is about being loving toward

33:20

other people.

33:55

Hey, thanks so much for listening to this season

33:57

of A Slight Change of Plans. I

33:59

really hope you found these conversations helpful.

34:02

The conversation you just heard actually

34:04

inspired me to reach out to my best

34:06

friend from childhood, Christine.

34:09

I hadn't talked to her in over twenty

34:11

years. It was a magical reconnection.

34:15

If something you've heard on the show has changed

34:17

the way you approach your life, I'd

34:19

love to hear from you on Instagram at

34:21

doctor Maya Shunker you can

34:23

also check this account for a sneak peek

34:25

of our coming season. We'll

34:27

be back in your feeds in no time in late

34:29

May. I'll see you then. A

34:42

Slight Change of Plans is created, written,

34:44

and executive produced by me Maya Shunker.

34:47

The Slight Change family includes our showrunner

34:49

Tyler Green, our senior editor

34:51

Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound

34:53

engineer Andrew Vastola, and our

34:55

associate producer Sarah McCrae.

34:58

Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme

35:00

song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

35:03

A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin

35:06

Industry, so big thanks to everyone

35:08

there, and of course a very

35:10

special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

35:14

You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

35:16

at doctor Maya Schunker.

35:38

Okay, am I sounding like I have

35:40

a little bit of a lag? Yeah, sounding like you have a little bit

35:42

of a life. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you have a lag?

35:45

Okay it worked? Hello? Hi?

35:48

Oh that I think that's a lot better. Can

35:51

you just tell me what you eat for breakfast?

35:53

Yes, I had some fruits, some

35:55

grapes, some cauliflower toast.

35:58

Then for lunch I had some rice and

36:00

some fish and some salad

36:02

with olives and pickles. How

36:05

am I sounding.

36:06

You're sounding like you're an extremely healthy person.

36:11

Pulliflower bread. What is cauliflower

36:13

bread? M.