0:14

Pushkin.

0:30

The only true strategy we ever have with our kids

0:32

is our relationship with them. Our kids will

0:34

all get to an age and it's all sooner than we think where

0:37

they're basically like, wait, I'm

0:40

big now, Like you literally can't put me

0:42

in a time out and I literally

0:44

don't give two shits about your stickers,

0:47

Like seriously, that's what they're going to say. And

0:49

so the only thing between

0:52

us is the quality of our

0:54

relationship.

0:56

Doctor Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist

0:58

known for her parenting advice, and

1:01

her core message is this, when

1:03

we punish kids for their behavior, they

1:05

may internalize the feeling that they're bad

1:07

inside and can't change.

1:10

Behavior is not identity, Like

1:12

there's a good kid, a in pain kid,

1:14

probably a smart kid, a freaking funny kid

1:17

underneath these really difficult behaviors.

1:20

And I think when you start seeing that, you

1:22

intervene totally differently in a way that feels

1:24

better to the kid and the parent, and honestly

1:26

in a way that also is just much more effective

1:28

for behavior change.

1:32

On today's episode, doctor Becky

1:34

helps us rethink parenting for

1:36

the benefit of both kids and adults.

1:40

I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change

1:42

of plans, a show about who we are

1:44

and who we become in the face of a big

1:47

change.

1:59

Becky is the founder of Good Inside, a

2:02

company that helps parents navigate the

2:04

often challenging experience of raising

2:06

kids. Good Inside

2:08

is also or her recommended parenting strategy.

2:11

She says parents should start with the assumption

2:13

that their kids are good at their core. This

2:16

might sound like a philosophical point,

2:19

but Becky says it's actually a radical

2:21

shift in mindset that can change how parents

2:23

react when their kids misbehave. What

2:26

I love about Becky's approach is how you can apply

2:29

it to all kinds of relationships. I'm

2:31

not a parent, but I found myself thinking through

2:33

these strategies and the context of my relationships

2:36

with my coworkers and as an aunt

2:38

to my nephews and nieces. Okay,

2:41

now onto my conversation with Becky. I'd

2:44

love to rewind the clock to

2:46

this one day, back in twenty fourteen. You

2:48

are a therapist for parents struggling

2:51

with kids who are misbehaving, screaming,

2:54

hitting, name calling, you, name it. Tell

2:56

me more, Becky, about what you

2:58

had been taught to recommend to these parents,

3:01

and then how things shifted for you on

3:03

that one day.

3:04

Yeah. So I was seeing

3:07

parents who had come to me hitting like

3:09

their hit kid was in a hitting stage, and also

3:12

not listening and all these things. And I was teaching

3:14

the parents how to give a time out

3:17

the program I was trained in, which was very esteemed.

3:19

It was kind of like the one to go to around

3:22

us. It was really all about timeouts,

3:24

punishments, consequences, sticker

3:27

charts, praising. So I was teaching

3:29

them how to give a time out. But

3:32

as I was talking, I had

3:35

this very uncomfortable feeling

3:37

in my body. That's the only way I can describe

3:39

it, Like my heart was kind of racing. It

3:42

was loud enough in my body that I kind of had

3:44

to slow down be like, what is going on? And probably

3:47

for the past couple months at that point,

3:49

I'd started becoming a little skeptical about

3:51

this approach, I like the months before, because I was

3:53

like, this is so weird. Everything I know helps

3:56

adults change their lives.

3:58

It's kind of theoretically at odds

4:01

with everything I'm telling parents to do with kids. I

4:03

don't know. I can't like just didn't make sense to me

4:05

that would be like that. But I was like, I don't know, keep going,

4:07

keep going, And this day, the

4:09

skepticism just reached a breaking point.

4:12

I just said to them, I'm sorry, this

4:14

is super awkward. I actually

4:16

don't believe anything I'm telling you right now,

4:19

and I'll never forget their look. They

4:22

were like, wtf

4:25

you can highly recommend it to us, like

4:28

you don't believe what you're telling us? Well, like do you believe

4:30

something else? And I remember being like, I

4:32

know there's a different way. I just I don't

4:34

know what that is yet, but I

4:37

still kind of right now feel like this isn't

4:39

it. And I don't know. It's kind of like all

4:41

I've got right now, and maybe we can meet in a

4:43

couple of weeks. And they were like, yeah,

4:45

like just give us some money back, like I'm not We're not coming

4:47

back here, which you know, I don't blame them. I'd be like, yeah, I

4:49

don't think so, like this is the weirdest session, but

4:52

in that moment, I was just like, this isn't

4:54

it, and it just it kind of like flew

4:56

out of me.

4:57

There was something that I read about your experience

5:00

that day which really struck me, which is that you

5:02

noticed that you emphasized

5:05

with these misbehaving kids quite a lot,

5:07

Like you liked.

5:08

That, Yeah, I feel like the kids

5:10

with the worst behavior are the kids in the most pain. You

5:12

know, you're talking about like a four year old or a seven year old

5:15

who's kind of like trying to wave a flag the best way they

5:17

can, which is like, well, I know I can get people's

5:19

attention from hitting or something, and I'm so out

5:21

of control, and I feel like they're desperate calls

5:23

for help. So I think I have a lot of empathy with

5:26

like, oh, this is a kid who's in so much need and they're

5:28

so much pain, and then they tend to get the opposite

5:31

of what they're in a very unsophisticated

5:33

way asking for. And

5:36

so after that session, I

5:38

was just like, wait, I don't think I

5:40

believe in timeouts, but why,

5:43

Like, what if we just strip back every

5:46

assumption that we have, what

5:49

are we left with? So here's one

5:51

assumption. If you don't punish

5:54

a kid's behavior, you're

5:56

basically telling them that the behavior is okay. Parents

5:58

say this all the time. Why

6:00

Like if I yelled at

6:02

my husband and he was like, WHOA,

6:05

that's not okay. And also, you must be upset. Let's

6:07

get to the bottom of this. Do

6:09

I think he's approving of my behavior? Like, No,

6:12

that's absurd. So another

6:14

assumption we often have is our

6:17

kids are kind of deliberately doing

6:19

things to piss us off, or they could

6:21

do better, and they're not. I

6:25

don't buy it. I just don't buy it. My

6:27

kid doing something in the moment isn't

6:29

about them giving

6:32

me a hard time. It's probably about

6:34

them having a hard time. Massive

6:36

difference, And so I feel like I

6:39

was left with one single truth,

6:41

And the only truth I was left with is kids

6:43

are good inside. Inherently

6:46

they come into the world good inside.

6:48

And if that was the only thing

6:52

I thought about first, and now

6:54

I've kind of taken away all the

6:56

floors of this other building, and that's my only

6:58

foundation. What is a brand new building

7:00

I would create from that foundation?

7:03

Yeah.

7:04

So there's many pragmatic benefits,

7:06

Becky, to taking this approach

7:09

and shifting your philosophy around

7:11

the nature of your kids, And to me,

7:13

the most important one is that when

7:15

we assume kids are good inside and we are able to separate

7:18

their behaviors from their identity,

7:20

it allows us to be curious about

7:23

why they're engaging in bad behavior rather

7:26

than simply trying to shape the behavior or even

7:28

worse, accepting it as fixed. So can

7:30

you talk a little bit more about that curiosity.

7:33

Yes, So everyone

7:36

listening to this, if you put your hands out in front

7:38

of you and you look at just one hand, and

7:40

we'll say about your kid, but it could be about an adult

7:42

or anyone. Let's say it's my son, Like, this

7:45

is who my son is. I'm looking at one hand,

7:47

this is his identity. And

7:49

then you put your other hand further away so there's

7:51

space, and you look at that hand and you say, this

7:54

is my son's latest bad behavior. It might

7:56

be he hit or he said I hate you, or he

7:58

lied to your face, okay, And then

8:00

you look at the first hand and you're like, this is who he is, and

8:03

the other hand is this is what he did. And

8:05

it's really important to keep those hands separate because

8:08

what we tend to do is, let's say we'll take

8:10

something super triggering for a parent, like

8:12

I just said to my kid, did

8:14

you just knock down your sister's tower? By

8:16

the way, I just saw him with my own eyes

8:18

knocked down his sister's tower, and he just looks at me, He's

8:20

like, no, okay, So let's

8:22

say he just lied literally to my face. So that's something

8:25

he did. It is so easy, and

8:27

you'll hear it for the hands to

8:29

collapse, and all of a sudden, that

8:32

behavior becomes your kid,

8:34

or your kid becomes that behavior. And

8:36

when we do that, we have no curiosity because

8:39

we're really only curious when there's a gap.

8:41

We're curious because we're like, I don't understand this. Why

8:43

is that? And now we can ask

8:46

a very important question, why

8:48

what my good kid? And I'm

8:50

looking at my identity hand to me, it's my right,

8:53

and then I'll switch to my lap lie

8:55

to my face, right, and

8:58

then watch how easy it is for them to come together.

9:00

Oh, because he doesn't respect me and he just like thinks he

9:02

can get away with it. And then I'd say

9:04

to a parent in my eyes, wow, wow, that was so fast,

9:06

Like there's no gap anymore. Let's just move

9:08

those away. Okay,

9:11

that's one interpretation. It's

9:13

not a useful interpretation. There's no more curiosity.

9:16

So once you have that gap, why

9:19

would my good kid lie to my face?

9:22

Well?

9:22

What I usually say if I don't know is

9:25

I'll say to myself Why

9:27

would I lie to someone's face, even if it was

9:29

someone I really loved and respected?

9:32

What would happen? I'll say, my husband. I love

9:34

my husband. I respect my husband so much, so

9:37

why would I lie to my husband?

9:39

Why?

9:39

What about you, maya? Why would you lie to their face

9:42

of someone you even really do respect?

9:44

Because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.

9:46

Yeah, I don't want to hurt their fe feeling secure.

9:48

About the fact that I had made a big mistake and

9:50

I feel really embarrassed about it.

9:52

And I love that one. It's so interesting people

9:56

think when kids that say lie to their face, and

9:58

they'll also say they don't respect me. They'll also say, and I've

10:00

said this throughout my kids too, We're

10:02

like, well, because they're a sociopath. I call that

10:04

the fast forward, or we just like create a whole persona

10:07

for our kids forever based on the behavior. Well, they're just

10:09

sociopath. They have no empathy. The

10:11

reason kids lie and the reasons

10:13

adults lie often is actually because they

10:15

feel so guilty

10:18

about the thing they did that

10:20

they can no longer separate that

10:23

bad behavior from their identity.

10:26

So if lying to someone's face is so bad

10:28

and lying or pushing down someone's tower. Even

10:31

if pushing down the tower is

10:33

so bad that I then feel like a horrible,

10:35

unlovable person, I will lie

10:37

to anyone's face all day just so I don't have to face

10:39

the reality of what I did. Understanding

10:42

my kid's behavior does not mean I'm approving

10:44

of my kid's behavior. But if

10:46

we're curious about let's say, lying about

10:49

pushing down a tower, now we can actually

10:51

get to the core of it. Now we can

10:53

say, okay, so what would my kid need in that

10:55

moment to actually manage

10:57

how guilty they feel and to know I'm

11:00

a safe person to tell bad things

11:02

to Ooh, Now, all of a sudden,

11:04

I'm gonna make short term and long

11:06

term change.

11:08

And this, I mean this does to one of the second

11:10

benefits of the good inside approach. It

11:12

prevents shame in kids and it gives them the feeling

11:15

of being empowered with a good self

11:17

that they can then improve. So tell

11:19

me a bit more about that and what we

11:21

do when we make kids feel like they're actually bad

11:23

kids.

11:24

There's a phrase I think about a lot

11:27

in psychology literature, which

11:29

is I am as I

11:31

am seen, And I think this really relates

11:33

to kids development, meaning if

11:36

as a parent you think of yourself as a child's

11:39

mirror, then you are reflecting

11:41

to them who they are, and

11:44

kids take in the reflection and

11:47

form how they think about themselves and their

11:49

self concept. This is one of my biggest

11:51

problems with how common it is to

11:53

just send kids away when they're struggling, or punish

11:55

them, or just see them as their behavior.

11:58

We are trying to promote quote

12:00

good behavior by reinforcing

12:04

their bad identity. Like again, just

12:06

from a logic perspective, and like, why would that work.

12:09

I'm telling my kid they're a bad kid and expecting

12:12

them to be good, And

12:14

so so many parents

12:16

will say in the midst of a tantrum, they'll

12:19

carry them out of a room because they're just struggling

12:21

to stay calm, bring them to their room,

12:23

not to put them there, to sit with them

12:25

there, and they'll say, you're

12:28

a good kid having a hard time. And

12:30

so many parents will say when they they're like, when

12:32

I said that for the first time, it felt powerful

12:35

to me. I watched something happen for my

12:37

kid. I watched it because

12:39

when they feel like they're a good person

12:41

having a hard time, now all of a sudden,

12:44

they're in the mindset of, oh,

12:46

yeah, so what could I do?

12:49

What's possible to have less of a hard time. One

12:52

of the things I tend to say in sessions to parents is

12:54

i'd say, look, there's a lot of stuff going on, and I

12:56

promise you I'm actually going to help you shift it. But

12:59

I just want to start by saying, I

13:02

like your kid. I like your kid,

13:05

and may's so interesting. I feel

13:07

like eighty percent of the time when the parents would

13:09

cry and.

13:10

I feel like I'm gonna cry right now.

13:12

Yeah, And I think it was like probably the first

13:14

time maybe they had heard someone,

13:17

especially quote a professional like say

13:19

that the teachers always and I

13:21

don't mean to throw teachers under the bus, teachers aren't doing. Everyone's

13:23

doing the best we can in these impossible situations. But they

13:26

would have had teachers who are like, your kid's the

13:28

troublemaker, your kid's getting suspended, or they

13:30

saw a clinician who worked a different way, who'd

13:32

give them some label like your kid is oppositional

13:35

defiant disorder and you're like, wow, like that's

13:37

not a nice term for my child, okay,

13:40

And starting with like I really

13:42

like your kid, and by the way the behaviors.

13:44

No, no, totally not Okay, we're gonna fix it. But I

13:46

really like your kid really was this

13:49

manifestation of behavior

13:51

is not identity. Like there's a good

13:54

kid, a in pain kid, probably

13:56

a smart kid, a freaking funny kid, a

13:58

really really motivated

14:01

driven kid underneath these

14:03

really difficult behaviors. And I think when

14:05

you start in seeing that, you intervene totally

14:07

differently in a way that feels better or to the kid and the

14:09

parent, and honestly in a way that also

14:12

is just much more effective for behavior change.

14:14

Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because

14:17

when you think about little kids, right, their prefrontal

14:19

cortices are not developed. They have a really hard

14:21

time with self control. You could subscribe

14:23

to the Pavlovian model of things here, which

14:25

is, Okay, you do a bad thing

14:27

and there's a punishment, and so the kid

14:29

does less of the bad thing. But why

14:32

is it that you think that that's not the right way

14:34

for us to engage with kids.

14:36

So let's say maybe I'm mad that

14:38

my mom said I can of a sleepover came out as

14:40

I hate you, and my mom says, go to your room,

14:43

and by the way, no dessert or no

14:45

iPhone whatever it is for a week. Okay,

14:48

So you're like, okay, so they get a punishment, won't they learn

14:50

not to do that? To me, what a kid

14:52

really isn'tencoding in their body is

14:55

when I feel mad,

14:58

that leads to problems in my

15:00

relationship and I don't get the things

15:03

I want, so I will push

15:05

away mad. Mad is bad.

15:08

Okay, that is not a

15:10

long term strategy to manage

15:13

mad, because we can't get rid of mad.

15:15

And so if mad by the time I'm twenty

15:17

five has learned zero skills.

15:20

Literally, I now have the same amount of skills

15:22

to manage anger as I did when I was born,

15:25

like zero, I have developed

15:27

a system to try to push it away. Okay,

15:31

you know what happens when you push

15:33

away anger, You are literally

15:35

building the pressure in your body, getting

15:38

ready for a moment where it's going to explode

15:40

out of you. The feelings always

15:43

win, they explode out of our body.

15:45

They explode, or they're internalized with deep

15:47

shame.

15:48

Or they're internalized deep shame with health

15:50

problems we know people have, right, I mean,

15:53

so many things that repressed or

15:55

suppressed or pushed away feelings lead

15:57

to now I want to show the opposite

16:00

because I think people really misunderstand this. And

16:02

I've never considered good Inside to be quote gentle

16:04

parenting, but people kind of put us in that category,

16:07

so they'll say, oh, so it's just a okay

16:09

that my kid says I hate you. Like,

16:11

here's what an intervention from good inside

16:14

would not look like or sound like, Oh,

16:17

sweet, you have such big feelings.

16:19

You really want to sleep over? Let

16:21

that anger out? No

16:23

no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's

16:26

what I'm talking about as like a sturdy intervention.

16:29

Hey, you're really upset that

16:32

you can't have a sleepover. I get it. I

16:34

also know there's another way you can

16:36

say that to me. And I care about your

16:38

being disappointed, and I'd love to talk that out

16:41

with you. And we can do that

16:43

when we both take a couple of deep breaths and use other

16:45

language, like I'm actually

16:47

teaching my kid it's okay to be mad.

16:50

Kids can never learn to regulate feelings.

16:53

We don't allow them to have. The

16:56

only true strategy we ever have with our kids

16:58

is our relationship with them. Our kids will

17:00

all get to an age, and it's all sooner than we think where

17:02

they're basically like wait, I'm

17:05

big now, Like you literally can't put me

17:07

in a time out and I literally

17:10

don't give two shits about your stickers,

17:12

Like seriously, that's what they're gonna say.

17:14

And so the only thing

17:17

between us is the quality

17:19

of our relationship, is how connected

17:21

we are. And I just don't know anyone who looks

17:23

back in their childhood. And it's like, when my

17:26

parents sent me to my room, it

17:28

was so productive. I was just like googling, like

17:30

how to express my anger in a healthy way, and

17:33

I was kind of sitting in my bed being like, it

17:35

is really true, my parent is

17:37

helping me reflect. No, you know what you're doing. You're

17:40

thinking about how misunderstood you are.

17:43

You are thinking about how mad you are that your

17:45

iPad was just taken away, which

17:47

literally stops you from thinking

17:49

about the behavior in the first place.

17:52

You have righteous indignation. It

17:54

is so counterproductive.

17:56

In reality, it just feels good to a

17:59

parent because you get to vomit your frustration

18:02

onto your kid momentarily, and

18:04

you have the illusion of

18:06

having an impact because in the moment they

18:09

look upset by your consequence.

18:11

And on that point, I think it's valuable

18:13

to share that you don't see

18:15

the good inside principles simply applying to children.

18:18

It applies to parents. And this is

18:20

so important because how many

18:23

friends of mine are crippled by guilt,

18:25

are so frustrated that they aren't the

18:27

parent they wish they were going to be, who

18:29

get annoyed every time they find themselves

18:32

yelling because they committed to themselves not to yell.

18:34

And so talk to me a bit more about how

18:37

we can avoid shame spirals and all

18:39

sorts of other counterproductive things that parents

18:41

do when they're all just trying their best.

18:43

Yes, it is the

18:46

exact same thing the approach does for parents,

18:48

right, I mean, it's

18:51

such a bigger picture conversation. But like

18:53

we are in a messed up system as parents.

18:56

We are not set up for success, like

18:59

we are not given training for this, and

19:01

no, parenting does not come natural. And

19:03

for women, know, there's not some quote maternal

19:05

instinct that is a concept someone else made

19:07

up to make us feel bad about ours and keep us

19:10

small.

19:10

Preach, girl, preach, it

19:12

really is like I love it that

19:15

that And you know, I often think

19:18

that good insight is like a language parents

19:20

are learning, and really the language.

19:22

Of parenting we all speak naturally,

19:24

is the language we were parented in,

19:28

simply, And if I told you, hey,

19:30

I was brought up speaking English and I

19:32

really want to bring up my kids in Mandarin,

19:35

I think you would tell me, WHOA Okay, Like,

19:37

first of all, that's amazing, that that's

19:39

going to be challenging. It's definitely possible.

19:42

But I'm pretty sure you would also say to me

19:45

in my most high stress moments with my kids,

19:48

like I'd probably revert to English. I just would

19:50

write like, and that doesn't mean my

19:53

Mandarin isn't coming along. It doesn't mean all

19:55

is lost and I messed up my kids forever and now

19:57

they'll never know Mandarin. We say this to ourselves all

19:59

the time, like I'm trying to connect to my kids and I

20:01

yelled at them and I called them a spoiled brad and I

20:04

mess them up forever. No, Like that was

20:06

a high stress moment you reverted,

20:09

right, I forgot who said this to me. I'm

20:11

going to say too, because it's so powerful, I have to

20:13

get it right. Kind of like in a high stress

20:15

moments, we don't rise to the occasion. We fall

20:17

to the level of our training. And

20:20

that doesn't mean you're a horrible person. Let's

20:23

take away that shame. Let's

20:25

stay connected to yourself. That whole

20:27

idea of behavior versus identity. That's

20:29

how I calm myself down after I yell up my kids. I say,

20:31

Becky, I'm a good parent who is

20:33

having a hard time. I am not defined

20:36

by my latest behavior. I'm good inside.

20:39

I'm good inside. And then you know what I do next, because

20:41

yes, that's my responsibility as I go back to skills.

20:44

What skills do I need? Do I have to

20:46

pay attention to my exhaustion sooner? Because

20:49

if I don't guess what, it explodes

20:51

as anger toward my kid. You know what, I actually

20:53

haven't worked out this week or really seen

20:55

my friends, And those are ways I take care

20:57

of my non caregiving

21:00

parts of myself, and so I

21:02

know I need to do that so I don't get to my breaking

21:04

point as soon. And it's

21:06

really that same system applied

21:08

to ourselves.

21:12

After the break. Becky shares strategies

21:14

for putting these ideas into practice.

21:17

We'll be back in a moment with a slight change

21:19

of plans. So

21:27

let's say there's a listener out there. This is the first time

21:29

they're acquainting themselves with a good inside approach,

21:31

and they're like, Okay, Becky, I'm

21:34

committing to this. I need to put

21:36

this into practice, though, great, tell

21:38

me about this concept of the most

21:40

generous interpretation.

21:42

So first off, you're listening to this and this is a new

21:44

idea, and you're still listening, and I

21:46

mean this in the bottom of my heart. I hope you give yourself

21:48

credit for the bravery it takes

21:51

to consider something new. It's

21:53

such a brave thing and you obviously know

21:55

this better than anyone. To even consider

21:57

taking a different path is so vulnerable because we're

21:59

faced with like, oh, did I do it wrong?

22:02

Did I mess up my kid?

22:03

Forever?

22:03

My answer is no to both questions. And by

22:05

the way, if you take a different path, you'll be like

22:07

me. There'll still be moments you yourself saying

22:10

go to your room, no, I bet for a week and then I'm like, why

22:12

did I say that? I just I don't want to say that. Why did

22:14

I say that? Like we all say these things. No one

22:16

is perfect, definitely not me. I

22:19

do think like you said, this concept of

22:21

MGI most generous interpretation is

22:24

such a concrete way to

22:26

start thinking in

22:28

a different way. So really,

22:31

the simple exercise is everybody,

22:33

right now, think about a behavior in

22:36

your kid, or could be your partner, or your colleague

22:38

or your mother in law, whoever it is that

22:41

feels like a bad behavior and it's kind of

22:43

something that gets under your skin. So

22:46

maybe I'll say, for my daughter, it's

22:49

screaming at me when she could just say

22:51

I didn't like that, right.

22:52

Screaming colleague of mine who interrupts

22:55

me in meetings when I'm mid.

22:56

Perfect, perfect example,

22:59

my colleague is always interrupting me. And

23:01

then just ask yourself this screamy.

23:03

I just interrupted you. Sorry to

23:05

make that point.

23:06

Whoops. So I would say, what

23:08

is my my most generous interpretation

23:11

of Maya's interrupting me? Right? But what

23:14

is my most generous interpretation of and

23:16

then fill in the blank, what is my most generous interpretation

23:19

of my daughter continuing

23:22

to jump on the couch after I said, please stop

23:25

jumping on the couch. What is my most generous interpretation

23:27

of my daughter lying to my face? What is my most generous

23:29

interpretation of why my

23:31

partner came home after

23:33

six pm when we had talked about

23:36

my partner coming home at five thirty pm? And

23:38

to be clear, when you come up with the most

23:41

generous interpretation, the action

23:43

you take next isn't saying to the other person

23:45

it's fine that you did that. No, What

23:48

a most generous interpretation lens

23:51

does for you is it always

23:53

helps you see that there is a good person

23:56

under a bad behavior. And

23:59

what it really does is it

24:01

helps you think, like, well, what

24:03

was going on for that person, Like what else

24:06

could have been their positive intent even

24:08

if it wasn't acted out in their

24:10

behavior. And what it does is it also

24:13

helps you intervene from a place of groundedness

24:16

and of seeing the other person as a

24:19

teammate. Me and

24:21

Maya are on a team against

24:24

interrupting. Me and my husband

24:26

are on a team against poor

24:30

communication around what time he was going

24:32

to be home from work. Me and my

24:34

daughter are actually on the same team against

24:37

this hitting problem because the truth is

24:39

she doesn't want to be doing it either, and that changes

24:42

everything.

24:43

You talk in your book about one of the most

24:45

important tools for parents being the

24:48

concept of repair. So tell me more

24:50

about rupture and repair and how

24:52

owning this as a parent can actually improve

24:54

things.

24:55

So a rupture is really any moment

24:58

in a relationship where

25:00

you feel disconnected, A rupture

25:03

is me yelling at my kid what's wrong with you? Or

25:05

me calling them you know a name, I

25:08

cannot believe you freak out in that toy story. You're such

25:10

a spoiled brat. A rupture

25:13

can also be my kid wanting to talk to me about

25:15

something and me invalidating it or rushing past

25:17

it. I'm really upset about not making the soccer

25:19

team. Oh you're so dramatic. It's not a big deal. You made

25:21

a basketball team. That could be a rupture too. So

25:24

it's really like a break in your

25:26

connection with someone, and

25:28

a repair is the process

25:31

of going back to that moment

25:34

of disconnection, taking

25:36

responsibility for your part

25:40

in that event, helping

25:43

the other person understand it

25:45

in a different way, and

25:47

I think also stating what you would do differently the

25:49

next time. Events

25:51

in and of themselves are

25:53

not what have a negative impact on kids,

25:56

and so actually this understanding is huge. So an

25:59

event like I just screamed

26:01

my head off at my kids, now,

26:03

is that an amazing event for a kid? Of

26:05

course not. It's not a great event. But that event

26:08

isn't having the impact on

26:10

your kids that you think it is. What

26:13

has an impact on a kid and

26:15

their development is how

26:18

an event gets processed.

26:20

For them, It's actually more about

26:22

what happens after the event. There's

26:25

two things that can happen. An event is

26:28

followed by a loneeness and nobody

26:30

ever talks to me about it, and no one ever

26:32

mentions it again. So after an overwhelming

26:34

event, I guess I'm just a five year old trying to

26:36

process this on my own. There's that, or

26:39

there's the same event, and then

26:41

after, at some point, I have a loving,

26:44

safe, trusted adult who

26:46

connects with me and helps me understand

26:49

that event and gives me more

26:51

coherence about the event

26:54

and helps me regulate my feelings

26:57

through that process. Same event,

26:59

two totally different ways

27:01

of processing it and two

27:04

completely different outcomes,

27:06

And the difference is actually all about

27:09

the relationship we have with

27:11

someone after the event.

27:13

Yeah, you have a great quote, which is that repair

27:16

gives a not great chapter a different

27:19

ending and allows for a different lesson

27:21

to be learned. In this case, the not great chapter

27:23

was yelling at your kid.

27:24

Yes, so a repair for yelling

27:27

at my son might sound like, Hey,

27:30

earlier today, I screamed at you in the kitchen and

27:33

I'm sorry, and I

27:36

think I was just having a really hard time. I was stressed,

27:38

and that came out as a yell. It wasn't

27:40

your fault. And I'm working

27:43

on managing my own frustration so

27:45

even when I'm frustrated, it doesn't come

27:47

out in a yell. And if that all seems

27:49

too complicated, just saying to a kid,

27:52

I'm sorry I yelled, that wasn't

27:55

your fault. I love you is

27:57

like shorthand, and I'm happy

27:59

to double click on it wasn't your

28:01

fault because I know it's like kind of a complicated

28:04

thing because.

28:04

Because you're like, it is kind of your fault because it is

28:06

through your dinner all over the room, and

28:08

yeah, that me for whatever. Yeah,

28:11

so how do you get there?

28:13

Here's how I get there. I

28:17

was having some set of feelings that

28:19

were bigger than my ability to regulate

28:22

those feelings. That has to do with

28:24

the event in front of me. But honestly,

28:26

it's the hard truth. My

28:29

regulation skills and patterns predated

28:32

my son's existence, like they're

28:34

in my body. Like how able am I in general

28:36

to deal with the frustration? How able

28:38

am I to keep myself regulated

28:41

and grounded when I'm upset? How able

28:43

am I to communicate with someone when I'm frustrated

28:45

with them in a way that's still respectful. Those

28:48

things have to do with me. He didn't

28:50

quote make me yell. An event

28:52

happened between us. I felt

28:54

frustrated, and at the point the frustration

28:57

started in my body, it's

28:59

kind of my own skills

29:02

that relate to how I handle

29:04

it. The more we teach

29:06

our kids that were blaming them for

29:09

our lack of coping skills or

29:11

inability to access them in the moment, that

29:14

creates a whole set of not so

29:16

great patterns intergenerationally

29:19

that I actually don't think anyone actually wants to

29:21

pass on to their kids. Plus

29:23

one last thing, it is the most disempowering

29:25

thing to me, Like when parents say, but if my kid didn't

29:27

complain about dinner, I wouldn't yell. Look, I know

29:30

yelling doesn't feel great to you. It doesn't feel great to

29:32

anyone. So you're saying that you're

29:34

willing to depend on your four year old

29:37

changing what they say for you to behave

29:39

in a way that's in line with your value. Is like, I'm

29:41

not willing to make that bet. My self esteem

29:43

is way too important to me to leave it dependent

29:46

on my kid. So I think that's another perspective

29:48

on it.

29:48

Yeah, and there's

29:51

an irony because there's actually just parallel

29:53

processes happening that are very similar to one

29:55

another, which is the kids disappointed

29:57

with the meal and can't manage the big emotions, so

29:59

they throw their dinner plate in food everywhere.

30:02

The mom or dad can't handle the

30:04

behaviors of the kid, and then they can't

30:06

regulate themselves. And so maybe we can

30:09

bridge the empathy gap just a little bit if

30:11

we realize the inherent psychological

30:13

similarities between what both parent

30:15

and child are managing in that moment.

30:18

That's right. So if our kid's disregulated

30:20

emotion is just met

30:22

with our disregulated emotions, then

30:25

what they're building in their body in

30:27

terms of their circuits and patterns of learning

30:30

of how the world works is my emotion

30:32

that was too big for me gets layered

30:34

on top of my parent's emotion that was too big

30:36

for them. Guess what, I'm actually making

30:38

it harder for my kid to learn how to regulate their

30:41

own emotions because of that association.

30:43

What do you say to parents who are afraid that is

30:45

just too late for them to implement your

30:47

approach? So they're thinking, look,

30:50

this all sounds great, but my kid is twenty

30:52

four, and so I'm pretty sure

30:55

that I miss the window.

30:56

It is never too late. It is

30:58

never too late. Is

31:01

it going to take effort to re establish

31:03

a connection with your twenty four year old,

31:06

just like it would take effort to learn a new language. But

31:08

ironically, the belief that

31:11

it's too late is the

31:13

single biggest thing that stops

31:15

us from change. And then I would

31:17

say, like, what is one thing? What is

31:19

one thing you can do? And to me, when

31:22

we're trying to establish a closer

31:25

relationship with our kids or anyone,

31:27

repair is often like the best starting point.

31:30

Have you just imagine your own parent calling

31:33

you like, hey, Like, I've

31:35

been thinking a lot about our relationship and

31:37

the way I did things, and

31:40

I just I know there were a lot of things that felt

31:42

really bad to you, and

31:45

I get that and you were right to feel

31:47

that way, and I care about you, and

31:50

I know we can't do a complete one eighty right

31:52

now, but I'm willing to listen and

31:55

I want to do things differently. I just don't

31:57

know one adult who's like, yeah,

32:00

it's too late, like that would do nothing. I

32:02

know plenty of adults who would say, I don't know, I might

32:04

still have my guardup and that wouldn't change everything.

32:07

I'd say, good Now, one conversation should

32:09

change everything, but it might change

32:11

one thing, or it might change some things. And

32:13

I think if we know that it would

32:15

have that impact on us. Well, our kids are younger

32:17

than us and they're even more open as

32:20

a result, and I think that's a great starting

32:22

point.

32:24

I think I just have a reflection, which is just

32:27

with all of these tools and all of these

32:29

techniques, parenting is just

32:31

so fricking hard.

32:34

And I'm curious

32:36

if you're willing to share, Like when

32:38

you maybe imagine parenthood and

32:41

what it was going to be like and then you experience the

32:43

reality, what have you found

32:46

to be the most surprising,

32:49

hard component of

32:51

being a parent?

32:52

Yeah? I

32:55

think on some level, unconsciously,

32:57

we think our kids are going to heal us. And

33:01

the truth is our kids trigger us,

33:03

like they trigger us

33:05

all the time, and so

33:08

in that way, I think what I was unprepared

33:10

for, and I think most people

33:12

are unprepared for, is like

33:16

parenting is just an exercise and like self

33:18

development, if we're willing to take it on, our

33:20

kids trigger us which really mean, Oh, they

33:22

bring up a lot of unresolved, unprocessed

33:26

things in us, and am I willing to

33:28

look in and say, okay,

33:30

like can I use those and grow? Because obviously it'll

33:32

help me grow as a parent. Ironically, it'll actually help me

33:34

grow more as a person because these

33:36

things always kind of lived within me, but they just weren't

33:39

triggered as often.

33:41

You know.

33:41

I had my first kid and he

33:43

just temperamentally was like a kind of easier

33:46

kid. I didn't realize that I'm at tantrums, but looking

33:48

back, like he really was pretty easy. And I did

33:50

all these parenting things and it's not like

33:52

he said thank you, mommy, you know, but he did kind

33:54

of like do well when I did them.

33:57

And I remember i'd have these parents in my private practice

34:00

who'd be like, I'm doing the thing you're

34:02

telling me, but my kid a yewlller, it's

34:04

not changing. And in the back of my

34:06

head I'd be like, you're probably not

34:08

doing it, yeah right, you know, But then I'd

34:10

be like I wouldn't say that to their face. And then

34:12

I had my second kid, and

34:15

I was like, oh

34:17

my goodness, Like I thought I had this down

34:19

a little bit and all those things those parents

34:21

were saying to me and my practice that's happening now. Yeah,

34:24

Like, oh my goodness, my second,

34:26

I feel like it's a lot more effort

34:29

on my part to show up the

34:31

way she would need. And also

34:34

therefore, yeah, like we have more rupture moments

34:36

for sure because of also what she triggers

34:39

in me.

34:39

Yeah, what you're sharing with me, Becky

34:42

is really profound, because I think we think

34:44

of parenting as a phase in life where

34:47

we've accumulated all of this wisdom

34:49

and now it's time to impart that wisdom

34:52

on these little people, right, And I think

34:54

what you're teaching me in this moment is actually

34:57

what kids do is they hold up a mirror to you,

34:59

and actually it's self learning.

35:01

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

35:03

You know. I always think about the prologue from

35:06

Far from the Tree, which is this amazing Solomon

35:09

and I think, you

35:11

know, his first line is there's no such

35:13

thing as reproduction, and I think that says a lot

35:15

about parenting. We use this word reproduction

35:19

as if we reproduce, and he says a child

35:21

is an act of production. You

35:24

produce, And what he says is parenting is

35:26

being forever cast into a relationship

35:28

with a stranger and it's

35:30

so dark, but it's so true. And he's

35:32

like, people don't say it that way because no one would have kids. They'd

35:34

be like, I don't know who the stranger is. I don't know if I want to live with

35:36

this kid my whole life yet kind

35:38

of what it is, And you know,

35:40

I think that brings up so much for us, Like

35:43

you learn way more about yourself

35:46

than you will ever teach your child,

35:49

and that's that's tiring.

35:52

And I think again, it's just very different than

35:54

like the societal view and

35:56

expectations of parenting. I

36:00

feel like it's so important to like say it how it really

36:02

is, because hopefully there'll be generations who have kids

36:04

at some point and can just say I knew

36:07

it would be hard.

36:35

Hey, thanks so much for listening. If

36:38

you enjoyed my conversation with doctor Becky,

36:40

I recommend checking out last week's episode

36:42

with developmental psychologist Alison

36:44

Gopnik. We talk about

36:46

how children are the best learners

36:48

we know of in the universe and what they

36:51

can teach us about creativity and

36:53

being more open to taking risks and

36:56

join me next week when I talk with someone

36:58

who, honestly, I'm kind of obsessed

37:00

with, so Leka Juwad. She's

37:03

the author of the best selling memoir Between

37:05

Two Kingdoms, and she shares her

37:07

story of being diagnosed with an aggressive

37:10

form of leukemia in her early twenties.

37:13

We talk about the isolation of illness

37:15

and recovery, why she hates

37:17

the trope of the hero's journey in cancer

37:19

stories, and the solace in

37:21

finding creativity and community

37:23

throughout it all. You won't

37:26

want to miss this one. I'll see you next

37:28

week. A

37:38

Slight Change of Plans is created, written,

37:40

and executive produced by me Maya Shunker.

37:43

The Slight Change family includes our showrunner

37:46

Tyler Green, our senior editor

37:48

Kate Parkinson Morgan, our senior

37:50

producer Trisha Bobida, and our

37:53

engineer Eric o'wang. Louis

37:55

Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and

37:57

Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

38:00

A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin

38:03

Industries, so a big thanks to everyone

38:05

there, and of course a very

38:07

special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You

38:10

can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

38:12

at doctor Maya Schunker. See

38:14

you next week.

38:35

Like if I was going out to

38:37

dinner with my husband and he was like, get on

38:39

your shoes by the time I count to

38:42

three, or you don't get dessert

38:44

tonight, and if I said I'm not getting

38:46

my shoes. I just don't know one person who'd say, Becky,

38:48

like I think you have a listening

38:50

problem. Like I think they'd be like, Becky,

38:53

I think you have a husband problem, Like what is that guy's

38:55

deal