0:14

Pushkin, the

0:30

brain activity that arose when we thought of our

0:32

future selves looked more like the brain

0:34

activity that arose when we thought of

0:37

others. On a neural level, the future

0:39

self looks like another person.

0:41

Psychologist Hal Hirschfield studies

0:43

the emotional connection we have to our future

0:45

selves and the benefits of strengthening

0:48

that connection.

0:49

We've found that people who

0:51

are connected to their future

0:53

selves are more likely to have saved

0:56

money over time, they exercise

0:59

more, They're more likely to make

1:01

ethical decisions, and feel

1:04

more of a sense of meaning in their lives.

1:10

On today's episode, Why Your Future

1:12

Self Needs Your Help Today, I'm

1:17

Maya Shunker and this is a slight change

1:19

of plans, a show about who we

1:21

are and who we become in the face.

1:23

Of a big change.

1:36

Hell is a professor at UCLA and

1:38

his work is at the intersection of psychology

1:40

and economics. His new book

1:43

is called Your Future Self, How

1:45

to Make Tomorrow Better Today. It

1:48

might seem funny to think of yourself in this way,

1:51

that there's a present you and a future

1:53

you. I mean, isn't there just one

1:55

you? But Hell says the

1:57

way your brain thinks about your sense of self

1:59

isn't quite so straightforward.

2:01

I think on the surface many of us would say, yet like

2:03

I am who I am, I'm oneself, You're Maya, I'm

2:06

hal and I have been and you have been.

2:09

So what's interesting here is that if

2:11

you start thinking about your life over time, it

2:14

becomes a little hard to say that you are sort of this single

2:17

entity. Right. Your interests may have changed, your

2:19

friends may have changed, the city you live in, the

2:22

job you have, like all of these things

2:24

about you, your personality,

2:26

right, all of these things, and so

2:29

it can be a little bit difficult to say that there's

2:31

sort of this oneself. And so I think a better

2:33

notion to really capture

2:35

the essence of identity

2:37

over time is that we are

2:39

a collection of separate selves. And so

2:41

you do have the current version of you,

2:44

current Maya, but then there's also a

2:47

future self. There's a future version of

2:49

you in five years, and there's also a

2:51

future self that exists in

2:53

twenty years or thirty years. So

2:55

when I talk about current and future selves,

2:58

what I'm trying to reflect is the reality

3:00

that in many ways we're not

3:03

this stable single entity

3:05

over time.

3:06

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's really fascinating

3:09

neuroscience research and psychology research

3:12

that corroborates this and shows

3:14

that from a psychological point of view,

3:17

we don't see ourselves as this single

3:19

entity over time that persists, and

3:22

I think there's a lot of benefits from that, right,

3:24

Maybe it opens us up to wonder

3:27

and curiosity about who we might become. But

3:29

there's also research showing that there's a possible

3:31

downside to seeing ourselves

3:33

as a collection of cells. And one of those downsides

3:36

is that when we see our future cells

3:38

as a distinct entity from

3:40

who we are today, it can lead

3:42

to our having less empathy towards

3:44

that future self. And so, can

3:47

you tell me how about what I find to be

3:49

just an amazing neuroscience study showing

3:51

how our brains perceive

3:54

our present day self and our future self.

3:57

So, one of the things that neuroscientists

4:00

have found is that there's a different pattern

4:02

of activity in the brain when people think about

4:04

themselves compared to when they think about others.

4:07

Now, my collaborators and I said, let's take these same

4:09

ideas and apply them to thoughts

4:11

of future selves. And what

4:13

we found is that when we put people into the scanner,

4:16

the brain activity that arose when people

4:18

thought of their future selves looked

4:21

more like the brain activity that arose

4:23

when they thought of other people, which

4:26

is really striking in a way. It's on the neural

4:28

level, the future self looks like another person.

4:30

Wow, it suggests that we are thinking of

4:32

those future selves as if they are other people. Now,

4:35

there's an important caveat here, which

4:37

is that that's on average. Some people had

4:40

patterns in the brain where the future self looked wildly

4:43

like another person, and some people the difference

4:45

was much smaller. Now a

4:47

couple weeks later, we brought those

4:49

same people back to the lab and we gave them

4:52

decisions that they could make between smaller amounts

4:54

of money that they could have right now and

4:57

larger amounts of money they could have later. It's sort of a classic

4:59

present future trade off. It's a little like spending versus

5:02

saving, and it's.

5:03

Really asking at its heart, how much

5:05

do you care about your future self being happy

5:07

with this sum of money versus your present day

5:09

self?

5:10

Right exactly. So, on

5:12

the one hand, what we found is that the people for whom the future

5:14

self looked most like another person, they

5:16

said, I'll take the money right now and not save it for later.

5:19

But then the flip side, the people for whom the

5:21

future self looked most similar, most

5:24

connected to the current self. Those

5:27

are the ones who said, I'll wait, I'll

5:29

wait till later and take more money for

5:31

a future version of me.

5:33

Yeah.

5:34

Are there any psychological studies

5:36

that look at the amount of empathy that

5:38

we have towards our future selves.

5:40

There is one study that comes to mind. So krim ca some

5:43

and his colleagues did this work where they might say that people

5:45

imagine you to win a lottery right now,

5:47

how happy would you be on it, you know, on a one to

5:49

ten scale, about an eight, I

5:52

guess, And then they ask

5:54

people how happy would you be if you want sort

5:56

of an equivalent, you know, let's adjusted for inflation,

5:59

lottery in the future, in five years,

6:01

two years, whatever it might be. And

6:04

the interesting thing there is that people's responses

6:06

are lower. So I say, oh, I don't know, I'd be about a six

6:08

or seven. And it's funny

6:10

because if it's the same amount of money, you think I'd

6:12

be the same amount of happy. But

6:14

the reality is, somehow

6:17

the things that are happening now feel stronger,

6:20

and the things that are happening in the future feel somehow

6:23

more muted.

6:24

Another study that I love, which I think shows

6:26

the same result that emerges from the neuroscience study

6:28

is shown in this psychological study in terms

6:31

of our frame of reference when we're thinking

6:33

about our present day self and our future self.

6:36

And gosh, I love this one.

6:38

It feels so viscerally true in my

6:40

own experience. So do you mind describing this particular

6:43

study?

6:43

Yes? So, Emily Pronin and Lee Ross

6:45

did this great work. They ask people to describe

6:48

a meal they're having right now, and when

6:50

people do that, they naturally use the first

6:52

person perspective. I am eating plasta,

6:54

I am eating a sandwich or whatever it

6:56

is. And then they ask a different group to imagine

6:59

a meal in the very distant future. And

7:02

when a different group of people do that

7:05

exercise, some of them

7:07

say, oh, I'll be eating pasta,

7:09

I'll beating a sandwich, but way more of them

7:11

switch to say he is

7:14

eating a sandwich, He's eating pasta. They

7:16

flip to use the third person perspective

7:18

when thinking about their future self. And this is work that's

7:21

been replicated by Neil McCrae and others

7:23

as well. And I find it so interesting

7:25

because it suggests that on this subtle

7:28

psychological level, we make

7:30

this little flip in our mind so

7:32

that our future self now is

7:34

seen as another.

7:35

Yeah, when I sit here and then I

7:37

imagine myself if I'm so lucky that I'm

7:39

here many decades from now, in

7:42

say a convalescent home.

7:44

Right, I'm looking at

7:46

myself sitting

7:49

in the convalescent home.

7:51

Right.

7:51

I have the ability to imagine myself in the first person.

7:53

But it's not what comes instinctively, Whereas

7:55

if I imagine my life

7:58

today or imagine my life tomorrow, I

8:00

am seeing it through the mind's eye. So

8:03

why do you think we're like this? So why do you think

8:05

it is that we feel less empathy

8:07

towards our future selves than we might otherwise

8:10

want to.

8:11

I mean, I think to some extent you could go back in

8:13

history and come up with an answer. Right, when

8:15

life expectancy was much shorter, it really

8:18

made sense to focus on what was

8:20

certain, which was the present. Right, the

8:22

distant future is wildly uncertain. Why should

8:24

I do anything for it? But now

8:27

we're living much longer, especially

8:29

in developed countries, and

8:32

not empathizing with the future self

8:35

can look as if we are almost

8:38

overly focused on the

8:40

present self. It sort of brings up the concept of what

8:42

behavioral economists and psycholoists called present

8:44

bias, which is that we are to some extent bias

8:46

towards the things that are happening now, so much so

8:49

that we end up really undervaluing

8:52

things that will happen to some future

8:54

version of ourselves. So if

8:56

our future self is the type

8:59

of person who we know exists but we

9:01

don't really care about them, then

9:03

we're probably not going to be doing things

9:06

for their benefit.

9:09

Are there any other studies showing that the way

9:11

we view our future self can change

9:13

the kinds of decisions we make on

9:16

behalf of that future self.

9:17

Absolutely so. In my own work, we've

9:20

found that people who are

9:22

connected to their future selves are more

9:24

likely to have saved

9:27

money over time, they experience greater financial

9:29

wellbeing, they perform

9:32

in more patient ways and laboratory tasks,

9:34

you know. Other research has even found that the people

9:36

who experience a greater

9:38

sense of similarity and connection

9:41

with their future selves also feel

9:44

more of a sense of meaning in their lives. They're

9:46

more likely to make ethical decisions

9:49

when given the option to act unethically, which

9:51

is another one of these sort of present future

9:53

trade offs.

9:54

Wait, tell me more about that one. How that's fascinating.

9:57

Well, if you think about it, If I'm given the option

9:59

to cut a corner right now and get

10:02

a little benefit right now, the trade off

10:04

there is that I get something right now, but I also have the possibility

10:06

of getting punished later.

10:07

Yeah, we're guilt feeling of guilt

10:09

later.

10:10

Or guilt later, right, And I

10:12

have researched with collaborators where we found

10:14

that the people who experience

10:17

a lower degree of connection with their future

10:19

selves, they're more likely to

10:21

opt for unethical negotiation

10:23

strategies. Fascinating when given

10:25

the opportunity, and that we even see

10:27

this. It's a small effect that

10:29

we see in laboratory settings where they get the opportunity

10:32

to sort of cheat, if you will.

10:34

Given that we might change in unexpected

10:37

ways, given that we will change, I should just say it's

10:39

inevitability we will change in unexpected

10:41

ways in the future. It can

10:43

become a little bit tricky to figure out who

10:45

we're actually making decisions on behalf

10:47

of right, So when

10:49

I make a decision today on behalf of my future self,

10:52

I am incorporating my current preferences,

10:54

my current values, my current beliefs into

10:56

that decision. Making calculus and those

10:58

things might radically change. And

11:00

so let's say, like how you've

11:03

convinced me I need to bridge any empathy gaps

11:05

that exist between my present self and my future self. I need

11:07

to care a lot more about future Maya. But

11:10

I don't know who I'm solving for.

11:13

Of course, if we're planning, we have

11:15

to base those plans off of something, and the

11:18

most relevant something is how we feel right

11:20

now and who we are right now. And

11:22

as you pointed it out really well, that change changes

11:25

us and we can't fully anticipate

11:27

those changes. At the same time,

11:29

we can look to the core of us and the

11:31

things that matter and

11:34

try to make plans based on

11:37

the values that we hold and what's important

11:39

right now. And I want to layer

11:41

on top of that the need to revisit

11:44

our plans and be compassionate

11:47

with the idea that some of those

11:50

values and some of our preferences may

11:52

change over time.

11:54

Are there predictable ways in which we might

11:56

change that we can account for now in terms of the decisions

11:58

we make, or are there at least stable aspects

12:01

of who we end up being that we

12:04

can feel fairly good about.

12:05

Yeah, your question also gets a sort of this

12:07

nuanced psychology of how much we actually

12:10

change over time and in some ways. You know, what personality

12:12

psychologists suggests is that it depends on where

12:14

you look. In some ways

12:17

we change and other ways we've remain the

12:20

same. And so you know, there's the big five personality

12:22

traits openness, conscientiousness, extraversion,

12:24

agreeableness, neuroticism. Over

12:27

a ten year period, we can expect one of those

12:29

to change. There's a good chance that one of

12:31

those traits will change, which is wild

12:33

in a way. Right, there's the five core traits. One of them

12:35

changes.

12:36

Can I choose neuroticism?

12:37

Please?

12:38

Can I talk to the psychology nods. I'd

12:40

like to change that one everyone.

12:42

Yeah, my magic eight ball says that

12:44

one is fixed.

12:45

Oh damn it.

12:46

You know, you know, we can expect right to get

12:49

a more conscientious over time, and

12:51

yet some of the other traits may

12:53

remain quite stable. And obviously there's lots

12:56

of videosyncrasies here, and there's individual differences.

12:59

We can't predict what environmental

13:01

factors and what external factors will will

13:03

change those things.

13:04

Yeah, and I think the broader message is sure

13:07

there might be some misforecast about

13:09

how we think will end up. But it's better

13:11

to care period about your future self, so at least

13:14

that can be integrated into your present day decisions.

13:17

I think that's exactly right. And I think at

13:19

the same time, if we're making all of

13:21

our decisions for that future self, that's

13:23

not going to lead to a very satisfying

13:25

life right now. And you know that future self is

13:27

constantly bugging me about decisions,

13:29

like I'm going to get annoyed by him and probably start

13:32

start ignoring him, right So, I mean, to some

13:34

extent, this is really about some sense

13:37

of balance, if you will, and flexibility

13:39

between now and later.

13:40

After the break, we talk about how to strike

13:43

that balance, plus a few ways

13:45

you can build a better relationship with your future

13:47

self. We'll

13:51

be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.

14:06

I feel like I Maya

14:09

only learned maybe five years ago that

14:11

I even had a present day self, because I'm

14:14

so.

14:14

Oriented in the future.

14:16

I have been living future self Maya

14:18

for so long, and then recently

14:20

it was like, oh my gosh, there's actually

14:22

a present day version of the How interesting

14:24

maybe I should invest in now.

14:26

Well, this is so interesting because researchers

14:29

talk about the experience

14:31

you're describing, as they refer

14:33

to it as hyperopia. So my apia

14:36

is when I focus so much on the present that

14:38

I missed the future. Hyperopia is where I focus

14:40

so much on the future that I miss the present.

14:42

Yes, I feel so seen right now

14:44

by this random technical term.

14:50

Well, what I find so interesting about

14:52

this is that even though

14:54

hyper apia is being so focused on the future,

14:56

ironically, one of the outcomes of that is

14:58

that we can end up almost doing

15:01

a disservice to our future selves. The

15:03

classic example of this is I

15:06

have a gift certificate to a restaurant and I hold

15:08

on to it, waiting for the perfect time to go to

15:10

that restaurant. And we could go

15:12

this weekend, but you know what, not this weekend. I want

15:14

to wait until it's just right. And then time

15:16

goes by and the restaurant closes. And now I

15:19

was thinking about doing something for my future self

15:21

to make it a really great experience, And what I've done is

15:24

robbed him of that experience. I've also robbed my

15:26

present self of doing it now. And

15:28

there's something humorous about that one. But then you think about

15:30

these other cases. You know, maybe I'm working

15:33

too much, Maybe I'm overly focused

15:35

on certain goals I have, and

15:38

in being so overly focused on them, I miss

15:40

the stuff that's right in front of me. Of course,

15:42

that resonates with me too, and I think it resonates

15:45

with a lot of people. One

15:47

of the ways that I like to think about

15:49

dealing with this is how do I

15:51

create? And the term I really like here is

15:53

harmony between present

15:55

and future selves, so that in

15:57

certain cases, the present self can live

15:59

now to give the future self memories

16:02

to look back on. And another case is maybe

16:05

the present self pulls back a little bit so that the

16:07

future self has more resource is to

16:09

use to create other memories. But if

16:12

I went one direction or the other, it

16:14

would be almost lumpy from

16:17

a well being standpoint. And what

16:19

my preference, at least in my own life would be is to smooth

16:21

that out so that all those selves

16:23

have that well being and utility.

16:26

Yeah, by the way, what you described so

16:28

tracks with my experience as a kid. I

16:30

went home to visit my parents in Connecticut. I was

16:32

up in the attic just looking through old boxes of

16:34

you know, I'm one of four kids, so there's a lot of boxes

16:36

in the attic of like our old things, and

16:38

I find this treasure

16:41

trove of my absolute

16:43

favorite stationary okay from the

16:45

time, and I was just unwilling

16:47

to use it. Ever, it's like no, apparently

16:50

I was saving it for the perfect occasion with

16:52

a perfect friend, and there's

16:54

just piles of it. Now this is all useless.

16:56

It's like Coropi and Hello Kitty

16:59

and all this stuff from this is really dating

17:01

me, all those characters.

17:04

But it's so useless now. But I remember

17:06

at the moment thinking like, this is gold.

17:09

You need to hold on to it. Maya right, Okay,

17:11

you gotta.

17:12

Yeah, I'm here to say now is the time I think,

17:14

you know, all future noteshould be on Hello Kitty.

17:18

Yeah, you just like can't use it recreationally by

17:20

but any what I'm gleaning from this conversation is

17:22

that you will actually become my pen

17:24

pal after this and I will be writing

17:27

letters to you and all that stationary. So it

17:29

eventually went to good use, right because right

17:31

now it's collecting dust.

17:32

It's in an addict in Connecticut.

17:34

Yes, okay, So moving on to those

17:36

of us who struggle to have sufficient empathy

17:38

for our future selves, it strikes

17:41

me that part of the problem

17:43

might be that we don't empathize

17:46

enough with our present day selves, and

17:48

so maybe that that's a place where we might

17:50

start. You know, I was interviewing Kristin Neff on the

17:52

science of self compassion for a slight

17:54

change of plans, and so I'm just curious

17:56

to know how you think about the relationship between

17:59

present day empathy and future empathy. It's

18:01

like, well, I don't I'm not very kind to myself

18:03

right now, and maybe I'm treating myself

18:05

like I would a stranger that I was indifferent towards.

18:08

It doesn't really well for me to really care

18:10

about seventy year old Maya.

18:12

Yeah, no, I love that idea,

18:14

and I think it makes perfect sense. It's

18:16

slightly cheesy metaphor, but you know, when you're on

18:18

an airplane and they say, you know, if oxygen

18:20

mas terdrop, you have to put yours on first before you can help

18:22

someone else. And the whole idea, of course, is that if

18:25

you're rushing to help someone else and you

18:27

haven't take care of yourself first, you'll no longer be able

18:29

to help them. And I think absolutely

18:32

the same could be said for our present and future selves.

18:34

That before we can start taking care

18:36

of that future self and empathizing with them.

18:39

We have to some extent take care of

18:41

and empathize with the person we are right now. I

18:43

don't know of any empirical research that's

18:45

been done in this space, but man, that's a really

18:47

interesting question.

18:49

So given that, what

18:51

types of things can we do to cultivate

18:53

a closer relationship with our future selves?

18:56

So one way to think about this is to start

18:58

from the perspective that future self is, in

19:00

many ways, as we've said, like another

19:02

person. So if you start from that

19:05

perspective, now I can say, all right, well, how

19:07

can we get our cells to

19:10

foster a greater connection to other people.

19:13

We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Charities do this

19:15

all the time. Marketers do this really well.

19:17

And what they do is they make the

19:19

recipients of charity donations

19:22

more salient and more vivid and

19:25

more emotional. So let's apply those same lines

19:28

of thinking to our future selves. Let's

19:30

make them more vivid and

19:32

more emotional. Right, Because if I can feel

19:34

the emotions, I can feel the empathy that's going

19:36

to drive me to do the actions, do the

19:38

things that make life better. Right. So, you know,

19:41

the high tech version of this. Something I've been playing

19:43

with over the years is to show people

19:45

what they'll look like. Right. We can use

19:47

age progression technology, and

19:50

my collaborators and I have done this where we actually

19:52

show people what they'll look like in the future.

19:54

And we've played around with this in different context.

19:57

Most recently, we ran a large scale

19:59

study in Mexico and found

20:01

that people who were exposed to their age

20:03

progress images of their future selves were more

20:06

likely to make a contribution to retirement

20:09

account. There

20:11

are lower tech ways to do this too, so

20:13

we don't all have to sit around printing out images

20:16

of our future selves.

20:17

But some of us just all of a sudden

20:19

have a bunch of gray hair on their heads without

20:22

intending to.

20:23

Suddenly, I have looked in the mirror, and it's it's

20:25

strange, how that is my future self.

20:27

No technology needed in this case.

20:29

Out very very weird

20:31

how that happens. Yeah, you know

20:33

so. Some lower tech versions of this are a

20:35

conversational exercise writing

20:37

letter to your future self and

20:40

then writing a letter from your future

20:42

self. And the reason I say that this is a

20:44

low tech version is because of course we're not doing the technology,

20:46

but it's still doing the same thing. It

20:48

is making that future self more

20:51

vivid.

20:52

One thought experiment that strikes me as potentially

20:54

helpful for building a stronger connection

20:56

with your future self is actually

20:58

to look backwards and think about

21:01

your past and recognize that your present

21:03

day self, which you really care

21:05

a lot about, is the future version of

21:08

ten years younger Maya. Yeah, so like I

21:10

am actually twenty something Maya's

21:13

future self really care about

21:15

myself today? I would really have wanted twenty

21:17

something Maya to care about this version

21:19

of me. So is that also an exercise

21:21

that we can use.

21:23

I think it's a lovely exercise, And so it's not something

21:25

that we've tested. But I love the idea of scaffolding

21:27

things by saying, when I was a

21:29

present self.

21:31

Ten years ago, yeah, as totally

21:33

that.

21:33

Past version of me made decisions

21:35

that now affect the person I am right

21:38

now. You know, when you do that, I think

21:40

it can really highlight these threads

21:42

of connection over time, and

21:44

you know, really shine a light on the idea

21:47

that the things I did in the past have

21:50

impacted the person I am now, and the things I'm

21:52

doing right now will impact the person

21:54

I will be, and more than that, will also

21:57

impact the things that that person

22:00

that future me looks back

22:02

on, either happily or regretfully.

22:05

So, you know, one of the techniques that I love is

22:08

the idea of incre breating commitment devices.

22:10

There's been lots of research on the idea that

22:12

we can recognize that

22:15

there's a version of me right now, and then there's this version

22:18

of my future self who I want to say, you know, has done

22:20

noble things and has eaten healthy and

22:22

exercise and put on my sunscreen. And

22:26

then there's the sort of you

22:28

know, version of me in the middle who

22:31

may screw those things up, right, the guy who doesn't

22:33

wake up in the morning to exercise, the guy who snacks

22:35

so much overnight, and then the guy who

22:37

says, you know, I think I'm good on the sunscreen. I'd like to get

22:39

tanner. And so commitment

22:42

devices are an amazing strategy because

22:44

what they do is they put guardrails on

22:47

our ability to make

22:49

mistakes in the future. And so the idea

22:52

is that I sort of commit to behaving a

22:54

certain way so that my present

22:56

self wishes can become the things

22:58

that you know, the eventual future version of me actually

23:01

actually follows through on and does.

23:03

Is there an example of a commitment device that

23:06

you've implemented on behalf of future.

23:07

How Okay?

23:10

So I have like you would almost call it a light

23:12

commitment device. It's a box

23:14

I have at home. It's called a case safe, and it's

23:16

just a little safe with an electronic timer on it.

23:19

Okay.

23:19

And so in an ideal world,

23:22

around dinner time, I put my phone in there and I lock

23:24

it away for two hours.

23:25

Oh wow.

23:26

And the commitment there

23:28

is that I don't have access to all

23:31

the fun things that my phone has on it, and the

23:33

outcome is that I can be much more present with

23:36

my family, you know, around dinner time,

23:38

bedtime, et cetera. There's one

23:40

catch, though, which is that I have to do it. I have

23:42

to put it in there to begin with, right, And so the

23:45

case safe lives in a cabinet.

23:48

If it was on the counter, I think I would

23:50

do it a lot more. But my wife says that it doesn't look

23:53

great on the counter, So so

23:55

I haven't done that.

23:55

But you know what does look great? Lots

23:57

of happy memories that you kids can look back

23:59

on.

24:00

Yes, there we go.

24:01

I shall tell you that that's the best form of aesthetic.

24:04

That's what I need to say. And when

24:06

I do it, by the way, it changes the experience

24:09

of dinner time. Yeah, because there's not even

24:11

a temptations, Like the actual only

24:13

way I can get my phone is if I take a hammer to

24:15

the safe.

24:15

Oh that's right, because it's got this electronic thing where

24:17

you can really only get access to it two hours

24:20

later.

24:20

So once it's in, yeah, it's done.

24:22

Okay, you can set it anywhere from one minute to ten days.

24:25

But it benefits me now and it benefits me later.

24:28

How do you think that when we have a more empathetic

24:31

view of our future selves, it could

24:33

have a positive spillover effect on our empathy

24:35

towards others. And you know the reason I'm interested

24:38

in this is the other day I was in the doctor's

24:40

office and when the elevator door

24:42

opened, I saw this young woman just barrel

24:44

past this older woman

24:46

that was using a walker, and I

24:49

just wanted to be like, uh.

24:50

Dude, that's going to be you.

24:53

Like, if you're lucky and you make it in

24:55

this life, that will be you, I promise. And

24:57

so that failure of empathy was just

24:59

so devastating for me to witness. I

25:01

mean, even for non selfish reasons, we

25:03

should be kind to people and consider it. But

25:06

even for selfish reasons, we should recognize

25:08

that it and inevitably that will be our future.

25:10

I've thought about this a lot, because, you know, when you think

25:13

about the way that we empathize with other

25:15

people, by definition, we are not a part of those

25:17

groups. But the one interesting thing here is

25:19

that I will one day become my future self.

25:21

I will one day become an older person,

25:24

and so I've always wondered, if I can increase

25:26

empathy for my future self, may

25:28

I also increase empathy for older people

25:31

and vice versa. If I can reduce

25:33

some agism and increase empathy

25:35

for older people, might that spillover to

25:37

my own self? And it's just a wonderful

25:40

open question right now that

25:42

we should dig into.

25:43

One challenge we face, especially younger

25:45

generations, is just feeling so

25:48

much fear about the future, right, feeling

25:50

so much negativity that there's

25:52

an anxiety and even thinking about future

25:54

you, right, of course, And so how

25:56

do we grapple with that.

25:58

I've heard younger people say, like, why should

26:00

I even care? Right when jobs

26:02

are being taken over by AI and climate

26:04

change and inflation, and I'm

26:06

making myself anxious right now listening all these things

26:08

out, One exercise I like to consider

26:11

is what sort of decisions from the

26:13

past seemed like small

26:15

decisions at the time, seemed like things we

26:17

might want to ignore, but then became

26:20

something much bigger that we're dealing with right now.

26:22

And then let me sort of translate

26:24

that over to say, what sort of things are

26:26

happening in the present right now that may evolve

26:29

into something much bigger later.

26:31

And so even though it may be

26:33

scary and uncertain and

26:36

undesirable to think about the future, we

26:38

still have agency over it. We can still start to think

26:40

about what are the seeds

26:43

that are being planted right now that I can fertilize

26:46

or pull out and change. And

26:49

I like using that lens to

26:52

start grappling with some of the uncertainty

26:54

that is existing both now

26:56

and in the decades

26:58

and even centuries to come.

27:01

Yeah, well on behalf of all

27:03

future versions of myself. Thank you for

27:05

this interview. How it's been such

27:08

a pleasure to chat with you, so thank you so much.

27:10

Thank you, Maya, so great to talk to you.

27:42

Hey, thanks so much for listening. If

27:45

you enjoyed my conversation with Hal, you might

27:47

also like my episode with psychologist

27:49

Kristin Nef It's called the Science

27:51

of Self Compassion. And join

27:53

me next week for a conversation with author

27:56

and happiness expert Gretchen Ruben. We'll

27:58

talk about how understanding our personalities

28:01

can help us unlock a better path to happiness.

28:04

See you next week. A

28:15

Slight Change of Plans.

28:16

Is created, written, and executive produced

28:18

by me Maya Shunker. The Slight

28:20

Change family includes our showrunner Tyler

28:22

Green, our senior editor Kate

28:25

Parkinson Morgan, our producer

28:27

Trisha Bovida, and our sound engineer

28:29

Andrew Vastola. Louis

28:32

Scara wrote our delightful theme song,

28:34

and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

28:37

A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin

28:39

Industries, so big thanks to everyone

28:41

there, and of course a

28:44

very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

28:46

You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

28:49

at doctor Maya Shunker.

28:50

See you next week.