0:00

This is a word. a podcast

0:02

from Slate. I'm your host Jason

0:04

Johnson. Criminal gangs have the nation

0:06

of Haiti in their grip. crushing

0:08

efforts to build a stable government

0:10

and a path that a future.

0:13

While the American government turned away

0:15

desperate refugees, american guns are fueling

0:17

the violence and unrest, we can

0:19

not save he from this level

0:21

of violence if there isn't a

0:23

caress of work gets taken out

0:25

in the Us and curb ownership

0:27

over the fact that we are

0:30

literally. Arming death dealers to the

0:32

teeth. the latest on efforts to

0:34

bring him back from the brink.

0:36

Coming up on a work with

0:38

me Jason Johnson stay with us.

0:41

Hi I'm Josh Levine My.

0:44

Podcast The Queen. Tells.

0:46

The story of When The Tail

0:48

She was a con artist, a

0:50

kidnapper, And maybe even or

0:52

murder. He was also given the title

0:54

the Welfare Queen. And. Her story

0:56

was used by Ronald Reagan to justify

0:58

flashing a to the war. Now.

1:01

It's time to hear her real story.

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Over the course of four episodes, you'll

1:06

find out what was done to lend

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a tailor when she did to others

1:11

and what was done in her new.

1:13

The great lesson of this for me

1:15

is that people will come their own

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conclusions based on whether prejudice or subscribe

1:20

to the Queen on Apple podcasts or

1:22

wherever you're listening right now. Welcome

1:28

to warrant a podcast about race

1:30

and politics and everything else. I'm

1:32

your host, Jason Johnson. The nation

1:34

of Haiti has learned from one

1:36

crisis to another for decades. Currently.

1:39

After a series of assassinations and

1:41

collapse regimes, the country has fall

1:43

under the control of criminal gangs.

1:46

There's only symbolic structural government. Beyond

1:48

that, Many. Roadways are crowded

1:50

with brief street battles, and everyday

1:52

life is shadowed by the threat

1:54

of rape. Kidnapping. and

1:57

murder thousands of haitians are tried to

1:59

escape the can't fleeing to the neighboring

2:01

Dominican Republic and beyond. Those

2:03

who make it to the United

2:05

States face the prospect of apprehension

2:07

and expedited repatriation. This

2:09

is an election year, and there's little

2:12

political support or interest in direct

2:14

American action in Haiti, despite the

2:16

outsized US influence over events there.

2:18

They are our neighbors. Now,

2:21

even those who have long resisted the

2:23

idea of international intervention believe that such

2:25

a force could be the last best

2:28

chance for peace and stability in

2:30

Haiti. Among them is Patrick

2:32

Gaspard. He's a former ambassador to South

2:35

Africa and the current president and chief

2:37

executive officer of the Center for American

2:39

Progress. Ambassador Gaspard, welcome back to a

2:42

word. Jason, thanks for having me.

2:44

It is always great to be in dialogue with

2:46

you. For the folks

2:48

who really haven't been following the news, let's

2:51

just do a general catch-up. What

2:53

has led to the current

2:56

crisis in Haiti over the last

2:58

several months, and how has that

3:00

affected just regular citizens living in Haiti? Well,

3:02

Jason, first let me express some gratitude for

3:04

the fact that you keep lifting up Haiti

3:06

and including it in the conversation about consequential

3:11

global crisis and opportunities

3:14

to build resilient democracies around

3:16

the world. Your listeners will

3:18

remember, Jason, that the previous

3:20

president of Haiti was assassinated

3:22

over two years ago. That

3:24

was Jejuv Ministrieship

3:48

and acts as a de facto

3:51

president as well, unelected,

3:53

no constitutional mandate,

3:55

no electoral mandate.

3:58

The United States The

4:01

French, Canadians, the

4:03

leaders of the Caribbean nations known

4:05

as CARICOM all started to engage

4:08

in broad stakeholder conversations about what

4:10

transitional governance could look like. But

4:13

it was clear that there was resistance

4:15

from Prime Minister Unrui to engaging

4:18

with civil society, with other

4:20

political parties, with a

4:22

very large group called the

4:24

Montana Okora that came together

4:26

across sectors to put out

4:28

a framework for what democratic

4:30

governance could look like in

4:32

the country after a significant

4:34

stalling. The gang crisis in

4:36

Haiti spiraled out of control

4:38

beyond the ability of the

4:40

de-capacitated Haitian police to contend

4:42

with. Prime Minister Unrui put

4:44

out a call to the

4:46

United Nations and to the U.S.

4:49

for some kind of international peacekeeping

4:51

force that could come and intervene.

4:53

In Haiti, the UN General Assembly

4:56

ratified such a peacekeeping force,

4:58

the United States and other nations pledged

5:00

to give resources for it. Ariel

5:03

and we went to Kenya to sign an

5:05

accord with the Kenyans and during that moment

5:08

gangs overran the capital, overran the

5:10

airport, made it clear that the

5:12

Prime Minister could not return. And

5:15

in that moment a number,

5:17

including myself, went to

5:19

Kingston, Jamaica as part of official

5:21

delegations to negotiate with parties

5:24

in Haiti and to stand

5:26

up some form of transitional

5:28

government that could eventually lead

5:31

to elections in the country

5:34

and the ability to

5:36

reinstitute the parliament of

5:38

Haiti, the judiciary of

5:41

Haiti and to move

5:43

forward with significant challenges

5:45

around the economy, healthcare

5:47

and most especially and acutely

5:50

security in the country. What

5:53

is the status of the Haitian government now?

5:55

Who's actually running the country because if the

5:58

Prime Minister can't come home? who's

6:00

actually maintaining the

6:03

government day to day? Or is no one doing that

6:05

at this point? Yes,

6:07

the Prime Minister has actually officially

6:10

stepped down. As Prime Minister,

6:12

he is no longer in

6:14

official governance in Haiti. There

6:17

is a transitional presidential council made

6:19

up of seven entities

6:22

plus two observers that

6:25

have the immediate responsibility to

6:27

select amongst themselves a

6:29

president of that council or a chair

6:31

of the council and then an interim

6:34

prime minister for the

6:36

country. And then that

6:38

interim prime minister has to stand

6:41

up some kind of a technocratic cabinet

6:43

to work on all the issues that

6:45

I delineated before. So

6:48

in Kingston, Jamaica, through

6:50

the auspices of the Caribbean

6:53

heads of state, a

6:56

transitional presidential council was

6:58

self-selected amongst disparate political

7:00

actors and civil society

7:03

actors in the country

7:05

and has begun to deliberate on

7:07

the next steps. As you can

7:10

well imagine, Jason, in

7:12

an environment, this fraught environment,

7:14

this polarized and this militarized,

7:16

there have been already clear

7:19

disagreements amongst the council

7:21

members about how to proceed with

7:23

their main mandate. There

7:25

are many questions that are coming from

7:27

both Haitians in Haiti and Haitians in

7:29

the diaspora, which I'm proud to be

7:32

a member of, about what

7:34

the length of governance will be

7:36

for this council, how they will

7:38

manage a kind of rotating leadership

7:40

structure to make it as democratic

7:42

and as inclusive as possible for

7:44

a body that is unelected and

7:48

whether or not there are aspects of

7:50

constitutional reform that can be taken up

7:52

in this interim period that can shore

7:54

up the scaffolding of institutions

7:57

in Haiti that really have.

8:00

not recovered from the 2010 earthquake

8:03

and the human shocks that

8:05

have followed since then. One

8:08

of the things that we found sort of prepping

8:11

for the show is that somebody who can be

8:13

said to be in charge on the ground is

8:16

this current gang leader who's

8:18

a former police officer who

8:20

goes by the nickname barbecue. Can

8:23

you tell us a little bit about this man,

8:25

how he came to power and

8:28

how he holds power throughout the streets of Haiti

8:30

right now? Yeah, so this

8:32

is a subject that infuriates me. I

8:34

will tell you Jason that much

8:37

of the coverage around this individual

8:39

in a way romanticizes

8:43

and valorizes his

8:45

assent and he's been given legitimacy

8:47

in too many quarters. Let's

8:50

put it as simply as we possibly can here

8:52

Jason. Sometimes, some years

8:54

ago, Haiti started devolving into

8:57

a mafia state. What do

8:59

I mean by that? There are

9:01

factions that we call gangs that

9:03

are all tied to and associated

9:05

with some political

9:08

actors or some oligarchic

9:10

business actors in

9:12

Haiti. Every single one of the most

9:15

prominent gangs in the country

9:17

are just a kind of Trojan horse

9:20

for a set of politics or a set

9:22

of muddied interests that are acting against the

9:24

will of the popular will of the people

9:27

in this country. This barbecue character

9:29

is simply a criminal.

9:32

He's come into power because

9:34

he had more guns and

9:36

more gang members than

9:38

others did. He has the

9:40

sophistication to take up a set

9:43

of strategies and tactics to get

9:45

command and control infrastructure

9:47

in the nation's capital. But

9:49

he does that through absolute

9:51

violent means, not through political

9:54

means at all. At

9:56

some point, this individual, When

9:58

there is a. The shit

10:00

Multilateral force. When the Haitian police

10:03

that capacity again this person needs

10:05

to be dealt with as the

10:07

criminal that he is and not

10:10

as a political act or so.

10:12

If you hear up some emotion

10:14

from the in this a fearsome

10:17

dismissive this for me this you

10:19

would be like right or in

10:21

sensing both because it troubles me

10:24

deeply. Dad a rank criminal murderer.

10:27

Someone who's serve forces have

10:29

use. A rape or as

10:31

a to and an instrument of

10:33

terror in the country is kind

10:36

of held up as some kind

10:38

of a credible force you to

10:40

for change or credible voice for

10:42

the people. He is neither of

10:44

those things. He is a butcher

10:47

connected to troubling and toxic political

10:49

forces. Who's. Backing this

10:51

individual who's making sure because you

10:53

tube you sort of way. Now

10:56

that all of these gang leaders

10:58

are are just proxies. Either

11:00

forbid businesses or their proxies for

11:02

are people who want to grab

11:04

power bother me to behind him

11:06

because that may also explain why maybe

11:09

the press gives him the sort

11:11

of robin Hood image. Why internationally he's

11:13

be viewed as someone of of

11:15

of. Potential. Care to retains

11:17

maker who's behind it. I

11:20

would say this chase and

11:22

or the United States, Canada,

11:24

France, And other partner

11:26

nations have leveled aggressive sanctions against

11:28

our political actors and some business

11:31

actors are in Haiti. Some of

11:33

them are tied directly to previous

11:35

sub prime minister or in Haiti

11:38

launch the My Dad. Some of

11:40

them have been tied directly to

11:42

a former President Michel Martelly. In

11:45

Haiti there are so cool or

11:47

in old family businesses are in

11:50

Haiti whose children or agitated the

11:52

Us or or France we have

11:54

homes or in those countries and

11:57

the sanctions against those in the

11:59

ritual ah actually create a space

12:01

or to were helpless. Arrive at

12:04

this point of side code transition.

12:06

I'm being a very careful and

12:09

not just kind of throwing out

12:11

wild accusations, but I think that

12:13

if you just follow the list

12:16

of sanctions you'll understand exactly who

12:18

is a cream this instability in

12:20

the nation at this moment and

12:23

standing up the gang leaders. A.

12:27

Lot of Americans are like to pretend that

12:29

we don't have any responsibility for the crisis

12:31

in Haiti. But. You

12:34

suggested that Us guns are really integral

12:36

to the violence down there and I

12:38

want. I want to put this in

12:40

context. I think this is important. There's

12:42

a similar problem that we haven't United

12:44

States. as far as a game. While

12:46

into Mexico, the entire country of Mexico

12:49

only have four gunshots, so all the

12:51

don't probably have there are primarily because

12:53

of stolen guns were smuggled guns from

12:55

the United States. It's a similar situation

12:57

in Haiti. Tough. Little bit

12:59

more about how the guns are getting into

13:01

Haiti and in the failure on the part

13:04

of the United States to do anything about.

13:06

So. And between two thousand

13:09

and twenty and two thousand and

13:11

twenty two thousands of weapons so

13:13

were were seized in Haiti and

13:15

raised. Eighty percent, Eighty

13:18

percent of the weapons that

13:20

were seized increase in Haiti.

13:22

That two year period where

13:24

either directly manufactured in the

13:26

Us or were traced back

13:28

to gun ownership in the

13:30

U. S. Easy percent.

13:32

And that whole not just for

13:34

those two years of tools for

13:36

this moment now holds the period.

13:38

Before then, there's not a single

13:40

gun, There's not a single bullet.

13:43

That. Is manufactured in Haiti or

13:45

anywhere in the region. About

13:47

some or two months ago,

13:50

Jason had conversations with. a

13:52

civil society human rights leader in

13:54

haiti who works very very very

13:57

closely with some non corrupted post

13:59

police actors in Haiti who maintain

14:02

their anonymity because too many of

14:04

their own leadership has been corrupted

14:06

by the gangs. And they detail

14:09

to me the actions of several

14:11

arms dealers who are in the

14:14

country who have shipments that come

14:16

directly, directly from ports in Miami,

14:19

to ports that they have seized in

14:21

Haiti. They described armored

14:23

vehicles arriving from the United

14:26

States, Keflon

14:28

body suits for gang

14:31

members coming directly from

14:33

Miami. They described guns

14:35

and ammunition that gets

14:38

constantly reloaded in

14:40

what is known as the Iron River from

14:43

the U.S. All of this is

14:45

coming from Miami. So ironically enough,

14:47

Jason, between the

14:49

U.S., the Dominican Republic,

14:53

between the British who

14:55

have their own islands that

14:57

they govern in over

15:00

in the Caribbean, they have

15:02

altogether set up means to

15:04

keep Haitians in Haiti, to prevent Haitians

15:06

from being able to migrate, to leave

15:09

the country, to come across any of

15:11

our borders. We all witness what happened

15:13

in the border of Del Rio, Texas,

15:16

when H.D. some horseback and

15:18

their crops were chasing Haitians

15:21

like wild animals through the field.

15:23

So we have the sophistication to

15:25

prevent Haitians themselves from being able

15:27

to leave the island. But apparently,

15:30

apparently have no means to interdict

15:32

all of the vast weapons that again

15:35

are not manufactured anywhere in the Caribbean

15:37

from being able to leave U.S. ports

15:40

in Miami down into Haiti

15:43

during this extraordinarily volatile moment.

15:45

It's a traumatic thing for

15:47

them, but they are

15:49

very, very, very clear about the origins

15:51

of these weapons. In the U.S., we

15:53

are very clear about the origins of

15:55

these weapons, and more needs to be

15:58

done by our Congress to provide the

16:01

law enforcement resources to interdict

16:03

that and stop that because we

16:05

are raining death on

16:08

Haiti through our arms trade

16:10

while instead spending all of our resources

16:12

to try to help people

16:14

who are fleeing, to try to prevent people

16:17

who are fleeing violence that we help to

16:19

create from being able to

16:21

get peace and safety in our

16:23

shores. It is a hypocrisy that

16:26

is stunning and alarming and we all

16:28

need to speak out about it. We're

16:31

gonna take a short break we come back

16:34

more on the crisis in Haiti. This is

16:36

a word with Jason Johnson. Stay tuned. The

16:45

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delicious ice cold taste of Dr. Pepper has

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a lasting effect on people. Lindsay from Sacramento

17:58

said... Pro tip, 40 degrees is the perfect

18:00

temperature for an ice cold Dr. Pepper. Why

18:02

is 40 degrees the perfect temperature for Dr.

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18:07

tell us. Oh yeah, I know a thing or two

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I'd share that with my friend Nancy. She likes

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Dr. Pepper too, you know. My coldest... Alright, that'll

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your Dr. Pepper? It's a Pepper thing. Inspired

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you think by writing us at a word

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at slate.com. Thank you. You're

18:50

listening to a word with Jason Johnson. Today

18:52

we're talking about the state of the crisis

18:55

in Haiti with Patrick Gaspard, the Center for

18:57

American Progress. Let's

18:59

talk a little bit about the latest international

19:01

intervention. What's the level of forces that

19:04

Kenya is providing to

19:06

help stabilize Haiti? And are

19:09

they even trained to deal with these kinds of problems

19:11

there? Most people, if they think

19:13

of international forces coming in, they hate, you know, Kenya is

19:15

not usually the first place people think of. I

19:18

never thought, you know,

19:20

anyone who knows anything about me, my public

19:22

statement, my record

19:25

as an activist, how I

19:27

feel generally about interventions

19:29

overseas, I never thought that I'd arrive at

19:32

a moment where I would

19:34

actually be calling for military intervention

19:36

of any kind into Haiti.

19:39

That is something that I am

19:41

just kind of like constitutionally resistant

19:43

to. There's a history of interventions,

19:45

including a U.S. Marine

19:47

intervention in the 1930s that came

19:50

to Haiti in a way that was

19:52

corrupting of the politics and caused a

19:55

tremendous amount of harm. And

19:57

that legacy, unfortunately, continues to this

19:59

day. through the constitution that Haiti

20:01

is governed under. So I have never

20:03

been one to call for this. But

20:05

as I said, Haiti has devolved into

20:07

a mafia state and gangs

20:10

run by people like that

20:12

character, barbecue that you made. You know what, let's

20:14

not even use his nom de guerre. Let's call

20:16

him, you know, his name is Jimmy Chirézia.

20:20

Calling him barbecue kind of gives him this

20:22

weird romanticized elevated status. He's just

20:25

a criminal named Jimmy Chirézia.

20:28

So individuals like that have

20:30

taken over all the institutions and

20:33

all the spaces of commerce in

20:36

the capital of the country and beyond the

20:38

capital. And we have to restore some stability,

20:40

some peace, and an opportunity

20:42

to create democratic pathways for the

20:45

future of the country. So there

20:47

is a need to increase

20:49

the capacity of the Haitian police that

20:51

has been radically, radically depleted. There are

20:53

only a few hundred police officers that

20:56

remain on the force at this moment,

20:58

and they are under fire. Some of

21:00

their leadership has been compromised. And

21:04

there's a need in the first instance to

21:06

kind of push back and beat

21:08

back some of these gangs. So

21:10

the United Nations, at the request

21:12

of the then de facto prime

21:15

minister, president of Haiti, Aria Lanli,

21:17

has approved this peacekeeping force. Kenya

21:19

will be the point of the

21:21

spear, so to speak, on this

21:23

force. But I want to be

21:26

very, very clear, Jason. There are

21:28

no Kenyan troops on the ground

21:30

right now in Haiti.

21:32

There are assets that have

21:34

been deployed into Haiti to

21:37

receive those troops. There's

21:39

equipment that's arrived in Haiti,

21:42

but the Kenyan personnel have not

21:45

yet arrived. The

21:47

US government has approved

21:49

a $300 million investment to

21:53

stand up the multinational security

21:55

support mission to

21:57

reinstate some orders of the United Nations. in

22:00

the country. Tranche of that $40

22:03

million worth has moved forward now.

22:05

Your question about training is important.

22:08

We all know that there have

22:10

been instances in Kenya of rights

22:12

abuses by those forces against their

22:15

own population. So

22:17

there is an investment that's

22:19

being made to help them

22:21

socialize in this environment. There's

22:23

clarity that's being laid out

22:25

by this transitional presidential council

22:27

that will have a security

22:29

leadership component to it that lays

22:31

out exactly what the rules of engagement are.

22:34

As you know, Kenya is an English

22:36

speaking African nation, not a Francophone nation.

22:39

The Kenyans are going to

22:41

be joined by French speaking

22:43

soldiers from Benin and

22:46

a number of other nations to

22:48

make sure they're able to establish

22:50

a rapport with Haitian leadership and

22:52

Haitian citizenry. There has to be

22:55

clarity about some of the terms

22:58

of reference for the Kenyan forces.

23:00

The Kenyans themselves announced they

23:02

were coming to secure institutions

23:05

in Haiti. They were not going to be involved

23:07

in politics and they don't

23:09

intend to be engaged in street level

23:11

fighting with Haitian gangs. Getting

23:14

some clarity on what is intended

23:17

by the protection of institutions,

23:19

getting clarity on what it

23:21

means for Kenyan soldiers, the

23:23

Kenyan military multinational force to

23:26

partner with a reconstituted Haitian

23:28

police force and

23:30

also understanding very clearly when

23:33

this intervention is expected to come

23:35

to an end because Haiti has

23:37

to move to

23:39

elections. The Haitian constitution says that

23:41

those elections should

23:43

take place in November of the

23:46

calendar year, so that would be

23:48

November of 2025. We

23:52

hope and expect that governance

23:54

is in such a place that it's

23:57

possible to do that, but elections

24:00

in Haiti without some aspect

24:02

of security. Every

24:04

election in Haiti going back

24:06

20 years now has had

24:08

some kind of multi-national security

24:10

force attending to it. So

24:13

the transition from interim governance to

24:16

permanent government will need to be accompanied

24:19

by some kind of a force, and

24:21

I suspect that the

24:23

Kenyan footprint will continue through that

24:25

period. One of

24:27

the things that always happens, I mean, is every

24:30

single sort of international intervention. You always

24:32

have mission creep, right? It starts off,

24:34

we're protecting the water plant, but

24:36

then to protect the water plant, you get attacked,

24:39

and then you got to shoot it out. You

24:41

come there to protect the hospital. You

24:43

know, this sort of domestic

24:46

gangster, Jimmy Shiraziyeh, has

24:48

said, go ahead, bring the Kenyans.

24:50

They're going to get tired in a couple months. They're

24:52

going to go home anyway. With all

24:54

the gang situation on the ground, is there

24:56

any reason to believe that Kenya may not

24:58

have the capacity to handle this past a couple

25:00

of months, that if there is a shootout in the street,

25:03

that leadership in Kenya might be like, all right, you know

25:05

what, this is getting bloody, we got to go home? So

25:08

here's the funny thing about the gangs,

25:10

Jason. We call

25:12

them gangs because they are gangs. They

25:14

are not a standing army, right? So

25:16

there's this assemblage of all the gangs

25:18

right now that Jimmy Shiraziyeh is sitting

25:20

on top of, but they are

25:22

not a standing army. They're not

25:25

a trained military force. What they

25:27

are are mostly very,

25:29

very, very young men, many

25:31

who are in their teens, who

25:34

don't have pathways of opportunity

25:36

in the economy of

25:38

Haiti, who don't

25:40

have formal training, who are no longer

25:43

in school at all. And a lot

25:45

of them are scared kids. We have

25:47

seen in the last three

25:49

months, Jason, that every single

25:51

time the Haitian police is

25:54

able to rally and marshal its

25:56

forces and push back in communities

25:58

like the Mu'a'at-Tisa. community

26:01

in Port-au-Ponce. Those

26:03

teenagers, because they're teenagers, fall

26:05

back quickly and

26:08

abandon the spaces that they

26:10

were holding. We

26:12

believe, just as was the experience

26:15

in 2004, the

26:17

last time we had this kind of intervention in

26:19

Haiti, we believe that

26:21

the same will occur when an

26:23

actual, trained, multilateral

26:26

military presence is on

26:29

the ground in Haiti. These are young kids.

26:31

They are not looking to be in firefights

26:34

with soldiers. It was

26:36

easy enough for them to victimize

26:38

a population that had no means

26:40

of fighting back. It's an altogether

26:42

different equation when you're talking about

26:44

an actual army. So the gang

26:46

leaders will huff and puff in

26:48

this moment and just make all

26:50

these pronouncements, but they will be

26:52

the first ones who will be

26:55

trying to negotiate amnesty, who will

26:57

be looking for a way

26:59

into legitimate political spaces. We

27:01

need to make sure that

27:04

there's actually instead a space

27:06

for transitional justice in the

27:08

new government in Haiti that holds these

27:11

gang leaders accountable and that there are

27:13

a set of investments that are being

27:15

made beyond the military intervention that

27:17

will create economic

27:20

opportunity so that

27:22

these scared young men are

27:24

putting down their weapons and

27:26

instead getting opportunities in education

27:29

and to work, whether it's

27:32

textile plants

27:34

or other opportunities that

27:37

will exist. We're

27:39

going to take a short break and we come

27:42

back more about the crisis in Haiti with Patrick

27:44

Gaspard. This is a word with Jason Johnson. Stay

27:46

tuned. With

28:00

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some environmental actually squash green

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how maybe the big demographic

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spread. Out

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know wherever you listen, Fearless

29:28

Work Which Johnson today. We're talking

29:30

about the crisis in Haiti. were

29:32

Patrick Gas parts of the Center

29:35

for American Progress? There's a substantial

29:37

he's an American population United States

29:39

including what? Our press Secretary: how

29:42

was the community seer? in

29:44

the us being mobilized water communities

29:46

board and communities in d c

29:48

in new york in baltimore what

29:50

whether be doing what are the

29:52

rally or the sending money or

29:54

they just trying to to raise

29:56

awareness by calling their members of

29:58

congress what's happening here Shout

30:01

out to my sister, Corinne Jean-Pierre. So I'm

30:03

glad that you mentioned Corinne as an example,

30:05

because we are at a place, Jason, where

30:08

there is a maturation that's occurred

30:11

for Haitians who are in the diaspora, Haitians

30:13

who are in America. We are now in

30:16

positions where we

30:18

are leading significant institutions, where

30:20

many of us have been

30:23

elected into government, local governments,

30:25

federal government as well, leading

30:27

key agencies, so we

30:29

can not only give voice to a set

30:31

of concerns, but we're in a position to be

30:33

able to act. There

30:36

is a broad, deeply

30:39

connected set of networks, diaspora

30:45

networks in all the places where

30:47

there is a density of our

30:49

population, whether it's in Brooklyn or

30:51

Miami or Boston, Chicago,

30:54

in Atlanta, et cetera, et cetera.

30:56

In all these places, we have

30:59

come together in person or

31:01

using the power of virtual connectivity

31:07

to share intelligence, understand

31:10

exactly what the circumstances are on the

31:12

ground, and here's the key, because the

31:15

diaspora in the past has

31:17

not only acted in a diffuse manner, but

31:20

I will say that the diaspora has acted

31:22

in an arrogant manner, in a way that

31:24

has not listened closely to

31:27

the leadership of Haitian civil society in Haiti itself.

31:31

So the diaspora in this moment not only

31:33

has real agency, but is being humble about that

31:35

agency, listening to some of the

31:37

actors who created the Montana Accord in

31:41

Haiti, listening to people who have

31:44

been leaders of political

31:46

parties in Haiti, feminists in

31:48

Haiti, young activists who

31:50

came together courageously to

31:52

create something called the Petro-Carib Challenge

31:55

to push back against the corruption

32:00

in government in Haiti, putting their own

32:02

lives on the line. So we're deferring

32:05

to them, we're listening to them and

32:07

picking up their advocacy in

32:09

Washington, D.C. I am

32:12

proud of people like J.P.

32:15

Austin, who is a doctor in

32:18

Florida, has had a

32:20

history of helping to

32:23

organize for Democrats in Florida

32:25

as well. But in this moment,

32:27

he has put all of his

32:29

eggs in the basket

32:32

of diaspora organizing, of

32:36

21st century advocacy that

32:38

takes advantage of the elite access that

32:40

some of us have to decision makers

32:42

in the State Department, in

32:45

the Pentagon, in

32:47

the United Nations, in CARICOM, but

32:50

also investing in local activism

32:54

and organization as well, that puts out

32:56

the four questions that

32:58

you've raised, Jason, about the

33:01

contours of a multilateral security

33:03

force to make absolutely sure

33:05

that the interests of the

33:07

Haitian people themselves, directing and

33:10

informing those interventions, putting

33:12

out the four questions of economic

33:15

governance through this interim period, how

33:17

aid is being used and allocated

33:19

and distributed, and also

33:22

thinking very clearly about

33:25

what it means to reform the Constitution

33:28

in Haiti and to restore jurisputants

33:30

in the nation as well. There's

33:32

an important outstanding question, Jason, as

33:34

to whether or not the diaspora

33:37

will have an opportunity to vote

33:39

directly in the Haitian

33:41

elections once those are finally organized.

33:43

I'm a big advocate for that.

33:46

We know many instances where diaspora

33:48

are still able to be

33:50

involved in Haitians in their home

33:54

countries. I think Haiti would

33:56

benefit from that, particularly since we know

33:58

there has been a massive brain drain

34:01

in the last many years

34:03

from Haiti of some of

34:05

our best-trained, most capable citizens

34:08

who have been forced to go elsewhere for

34:10

their safety and for a connected opportunity. What

34:14

would you have the Biden administration

34:16

do that they haven't done

34:18

already? And do you think it's

34:20

likely that they'll make any major moves

34:24

to the benefit of Haiti given that it's an election year?

34:27

So Jason, I think anyone

34:29

who follows me on social media knows

34:31

that I don't hesitate to criticize

34:34

my own leadership, my own clinical

34:36

party leadership, and I've done

34:39

so on Haiti. I will say in

34:41

this moment, especially since I

34:43

had the benefit of spending time

34:45

with Secretary Blinken, who pulled

34:47

away from the crisis in the

34:49

Middle East to go to

34:52

Jamaica to participate in the negotiations around

34:54

the transition in Haiti and who has

34:57

personally invested his intellectual

34:59

resources and the material resources

35:01

of his department in this

35:03

transition. At this moment, this

35:05

administration is properly focused and

35:08

engaged on these issues. I

35:10

will give a

35:12

particular commendation to a member

35:15

of Congress, Congressman Gregory Meeks

35:17

from New York, who is

35:19

the ranking Democrat on foreign

35:22

affairs, who has always

35:24

kept Haiti at

35:26

front of the center, top of

35:29

file. So right now, the

35:31

United States is the single largest humanitarian

35:33

donor to Haiti. On March

35:35

15th, USA announced their intention to provide

35:37

an additional $25 million adjacent in

35:41

humanitarian assistance. This

35:44

is building on additional funding

35:46

directly from the State Department

35:49

on humanitarian help on

35:52

food supplies as well.

35:55

And it's also clear, based on the conversation that

35:57

I was fortunate to have in the State just

36:00

last week that the US

36:02

is already intending to invest

36:04

significant resources in standing up

36:07

the Independent Artoral Council in Haiti

36:09

through this period of transition. I

36:11

will say the one space where

36:13

I think we need more focus

36:15

is on this question of the interdiction

36:18

of these weapons that are flowing

36:21

into Haiti. The Bureau of International

36:23

Narcotics and Law Enforcement has allocated

36:25

about $190 million to

36:28

develop and professionalize leadership to counter

36:30

gang violence. That's all well and

36:32

good, but we need resources applied

36:36

strategically to

36:38

stop the flow of guns and

36:40

ammunition from the United States, from

36:43

Miami specifically, that is making it

36:45

possible for the citizens of Haiti

36:47

to be absolutely terrorized. So

36:50

I want to see more investment there, more focus

36:52

there, in addition to

36:54

the humanitarian relief and in addition to

36:57

the support for the international intervention. Usually

37:01

at the end of the show, I'll say, oh,

37:03

how can people help or how can people participate

37:05

or be involved? But I want

37:07

to ask you something, a different ambassador to

37:09

GASWORD. It

37:12

was less than a year ago that

37:14

you were on our show, on a

37:16

word, and we were talking about violence

37:18

and unrest in Haiti. What

37:21

is the one thing that's

37:23

got to happen so

37:26

that we're not having this same conversation in

37:28

another year? What's the one

37:30

thing, if you could wave a magic wand,

37:33

that needs to happen so that we're not having this conversation a

37:35

year from now? You know, there are

37:37

things that some of us are doing

37:40

to create transitions in Haiti to disempower

37:42

bad political actors. We cannot save Haiti

37:44

from this level of violence and the

37:46

violence that you and I discussed a

37:48

year ago if there isn't aggressive work

37:51

that's taken on in the U.S. and

37:53

a kind of ownership over

37:55

the fact that we are literally

37:57

arming death dealers to the teeth.

38:00

with the means to eradicate the population. If

38:02

we don't do that, then

38:05

you and I will absolutely be having

38:07

the same conversation again. So we have

38:09

to have targeted sanctions against political actors

38:11

who are sitting on top of the

38:13

gangs, but then we have to

38:15

stop the flow of weapons to them. And

38:17

not a single one of these weapons is

38:19

produced in Haiti, and we

38:21

have the means to stop that flow

38:24

in the U.S. Question is, do we

38:26

have the political will to hold ourselves

38:28

accountable on this river of death that

38:30

we are transporting to this nation? Patrick

38:34

Gaspard is the former U.S. Ambassador to South

38:37

Africa and the President and CEO of the

38:39

Center for American Progress. Thank you so much

38:41

for joining us today on The Word. Thank

38:43

you, Jason. And

38:45

that's A Word for this

38:48

week. The show's email is

38:50

awordatslate.com. This episode was

38:52

produced by Christy Tywoe Macinjula. Ben

38:55

Richmond is Slate's Senior Director of

38:57

Podcast Operations. Alicia Montgomery is the

38:59

Vice President of Slate Audio. Our

39:02

theme music was produced by Don

39:04

Will. I'm Jason Johnson. Tune in

39:06

next week for Word.