0:00

This is a word, a podcast from

0:02

sleep. I'm your host, Jason Johnson. Former

0:04

president Donald Trump is now a

0:06

convicted felon. A New York

0:09

jury declared him guilty on all 34 counts in

0:12

his hush money trial. So what's next

0:14

for this case? And what does it say

0:16

about our justice system? Allowing this

0:19

person to continue on and run for

0:21

office, for

0:25

the highest office in this

0:27

country is sort of a backhanded

0:30

way of trying to tell people that

0:33

the system works. More on the Trump

0:35

verdict coming up on a word with me,

0:37

Jason Johnson. Stay with us. We

0:42

took it all we brought them

0:44

to on live. And

0:47

and last night, Emperor Hot

0:49

and Ice cold the range

0:52

of the earth. We make

0:54

this colors. Car

0:57

didn't have worked on box we

0:59

did not see we could not

1:01

but she did the a right

1:04

of high pick a. Similar

1:06

starker: How play. To. Play.

1:09

It now with game pass. Hey,

1:14

Slate listeners. I'm Christina Kottarucci, the host of

1:16

Slow Burn, Gaze Against Briggs. I want to

1:18

tell you about a special event we're doing

1:20

at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York

1:22

City on June 13th. To

1:25

celebrate the new season of Slow Burn

1:27

and Pride Month, we'll be hosting an

1:29

exclusive taping of the show with special

1:31

guests, including Eric Marcus, the host of

1:33

Making Gay History. We'll dive

1:35

deeper into this season and talk about

1:37

the lasting impact of the Briggs Initiative

1:39

and the continued fight over LGBTQ rights

1:42

in schools. Plus, we'll share

1:44

some behind the scenes stories and never

1:46

before aired tape from this season. It'll

1:48

be the perfect way to celebrate Pride

1:50

Month this June with LGBTQ stories and

1:53

voices across generations. You won't want to

1:55

miss it. Again, that's June

1:57

13th at the Tribeca Film Festival in New

1:59

York City. city. You can get

2:01

tickets now at tribecafilm.com. Hope

2:03

to see you there. Welcome

2:13

to a word podcast about race and politics

2:15

and everything else. I'm your host Jason Johnson.

2:17

After less than two days of

2:19

deliberation, a New York jury declared

2:21

former President Donald Trump guilty of

2:23

all 34 charges

2:26

related to his hush money payment to

2:28

adult film star Stormy Daniels. The verdict

2:31

ends a case that was years in

2:33

the making and that commanded the

2:35

attention of the legal world, political leaders,

2:37

and the American people. What

2:39

should we expect at sentencing? And what's next

2:41

for his other cases? And what does all

2:44

this say about the state of our

2:46

legal system? Joining us to discuss these issues

2:48

is Yodit Tawalde. She's an attorney who's

2:50

been featured as a legal analyst on Court

2:52

TV, MSNBC, and other outlets. Yo,

2:54

Yodit Tawalde, welcome to a word. Thank you,

2:57

Jason. We are literally

2:59

talking minutes after the

3:02

ruling and I have to say this

3:04

up front. I am

3:06

shocked. What is your reaction? As someone who's

3:08

paid attention to this trial, are you shocked?

3:10

Did you expect this? Because I didn't

3:12

expect him to be found guilty on 34 counts. I'm

3:15

just shocked. I knew that there was going to be

3:17

a guilty verdict. You have to remember who

3:19

this jury is and who is comprising

3:22

of this jury, right? You have three

3:24

lawyers, I believe. You've got some lawyers.

3:26

You've got educators. You've

3:28

got nurses. These are smart individuals.

3:31

Just based on the notes that

3:34

they sent back to the court

3:36

asking to have certain parts of

3:38

testimony transcribed and reread to them,

3:41

let me know that they were going according

3:43

to how the prosecutors were

3:45

laying out their case in chronological order. In

3:48

the way that they were asking

3:50

for specific parts of a person's testimony led

3:52

me to believe that they are on the

3:55

right track, that they're going to find him

3:57

guilty. I just didn't expect them to find

3:59

him. him guilty of all 34 counts,

4:02

I was thinking, okay, they'll find him guilty

4:05

of the counts where he signed off

4:07

on the check, right? Like he signed

4:09

his name, he therefore knew what he

4:11

was signing. And that way they can

4:13

kind of split the baby, right? But

4:15

to have them just find him guilty

4:17

on all counts is shocking to me.

4:21

What was Trump actually accused

4:23

of? Like what was the

4:25

actual crime that he

4:27

was being prosecuted for? So

4:30

this was a white collar

4:32

crime, so to speak, which is a

4:34

very common thing for people to be

4:36

charged with in New York, especially

4:38

for the Manhattan district attorney's office.

4:41

And so what they were saying

4:43

Donald Trump did was basically cook

4:45

the books. What so the

4:48

whole thing was, okay, falsifying business records,

4:50

and that's in the first degree out

4:52

there in New York. And what they're

4:55

alleging the prosecution that Donald Trump did

4:57

was that he made phony or false

4:59

entries in the books and records of

5:02

his company with the intention of covering

5:04

up the commission of another

5:06

crime. So the theory was there were records

5:08

that were falsified relating to payments that were

5:10

made to Michael Cohen for the

5:12

reimbursement of money that was paid to

5:14

Stormy Daniels, all as a way

5:17

to commit crimes related to New York state election

5:19

fraud. So it's confusing.

5:21

Yes. But basically what they were showing

5:23

the jury was, hey, Michael Cohen made

5:25

a payment to Stormy Daniels to keep

5:28

her quiet that she had this affair

5:30

with Donald Trump at Donald Trump's

5:32

direction, paying Michael Cohen

5:34

back for that payment that he

5:36

made to Stormy Daniels. He or

5:39

his company, Weisselberg,

5:41

the CFO at the time, you

5:43

know, for Trump Corporation, essentially covered

5:46

up those payments, those checks as

5:48

legal fees, legal expenses, retainer. There was

5:50

no retainer. He did, he did no

5:52

work. So what they

5:54

were trying to do is hide the fact that

5:56

they were really paying him

5:58

to keep Stormy Daniels. quite for the benefit

6:01

of his election, which was

6:03

days before the actual election took

6:05

place. Wow. Okay.

6:08

That honestly, I gotta tell you, that's actually one

6:10

of the most succinct explanations that I've heard. I

6:12

want to ask you something about this because I'm

6:14

one of those people, I joke

6:16

about this. We've, you know, we've been on the air together. I always

6:19

say, hey, I'm not a lawyer. I don't play

6:21

one on TV. I don't play one on a

6:23

podcast. And I think there's probably a lot

6:25

of people out there that thought

6:27

to themselves, okay, so

6:29

he paid off a mistress. Why

6:32

is that illegal? And what you're

6:34

saying is it's not just

6:36

paying off your mistress. That's illegal.

6:38

It's hiding it and calling it

6:40

a business expense. That's illegal, right?

6:43

Paying for someone's silence isn't illegal.

6:45

It's, it's how he tried to

6:47

cover that up. And

6:49

not only that, it was a campaign. It

6:51

was a campaign donation, so to speak. And

6:54

there were campaign finance violations because

6:56

you're supposed to report any

6:58

campaign contributions. And

7:01

that wasn't reported. So

7:04

going into this case, I

7:06

would, my first thought would be, okay,

7:08

you've got this complex thing that you got to

7:10

sort of explain to people. Can

7:13

you give us just a little bit

7:15

of background on maybe just one, one

7:18

point in this case that you think was

7:20

a turning point? Do you think it was

7:23

Hope Hicks testimony, you know, who had worked

7:25

in the White House? Do you think it

7:27

was Michael Cohen's testimony? What do you think

7:29

might have been a turning point either for

7:31

or against the prosecution in this case? Well,

7:35

I can definitely tell you it

7:37

wasn't Michael Cohen alone. He was

7:39

a problematic witness. The

7:41

prosecution in their closing arguments

7:43

said, we didn't pick Michael

7:45

Cohen up from the witness

7:47

store. He wasn't the

7:49

witness that we chose, but

7:51

he came in here, he

7:54

told you the truth, and

7:56

we corroborated his testimony. We

7:58

pre corroborated his testimony. with

8:00

all these other people that didn't want

8:02

to testify. Some even said that they

8:04

still admired Donald Trump, right? You had

8:07

David Pecker, Hope Hicks, who broke down

8:09

in tears, still

8:11

admired this man and his family,

8:14

right? And they said things that

8:16

helped corroborate what Michael Cohen said.

8:18

Was there a turning point for

8:21

the prosecution? I

8:23

don't think so. I just think that

8:25

they covered their bases so well. I

8:27

mean, their closing arguments was five hours

8:29

long. That could have actually worked

8:31

against them because in the mind of a

8:33

juror, you know, they could think, okay, this

8:36

should be very simple, right? This

8:38

is something that we've covered. You've covered for

8:40

weeks now. You've thrown a bunch of evidence

8:42

at us. And this should be tied up

8:44

in a nice little print of bow, you

8:47

know, with something short and sweet. But the fact

8:49

that you're taking this long tells us that you're

8:51

trying to really convince us that you have a

8:53

case. But that didn't turn out to be the

8:55

case. They were really thorough. It worked to their

8:58

benefit. So that was a good thing for them.

9:00

I think a turning point for the defense that

9:02

I thought was going to cause the prosecution to

9:05

maybe get some not guilties

9:08

was when they caught Cohen in one of

9:10

like the biggest lies. I don't think that

9:12

the jury found that he was completely

9:15

lying. Even if even

9:17

if they were, and I don't know if you know, but the

9:19

96 second conversation that they

9:21

kept harping about that Cohen claimed

9:23

he had with Donald Trump, and

9:25

that he said it was about a when

9:28

really the defense exposed that it could have

9:30

been only about B. But

9:32

then in closing arguments, what the prosecution

9:34

did is literally hold up a fake

9:36

phone to their ears and said, here's

9:38

what you can say in 96 seconds.

9:41

So it's possible that Cohen

9:43

talked about a and B

9:45

that worked to the

9:48

prosecution's benefit. And I think that might

9:50

have saved them. But no, no real

9:52

turning point. I think I think it

9:54

was just them really covering their tracks

9:56

and really trying to make sure that

9:58

they presented witnesses that could Really

10:00

corroborate what Michael Cohen because that was their last

10:02

witness what he was going to say on the

10:04

witness man Because he's just he was a problematic

10:07

known perjurer Convicted

10:09

perjurer so they needed to really

10:11

really pre corroborate his testimony We're

10:16

gonna take a short break when we come back

10:18

more on the Trump verdict, this is a word

10:20

with Jason Johnson stay tuned Our

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now wherever books are sold This

12:00

is Jason Johnson, host of A Word,

12:03

Slate's podcast about race and politics and

12:05

everything else. I want

12:07

to take a moment to welcome our new

12:09

listeners. If you've discovered A Word and like

12:11

what you hear, please subscribe, wait, and review

12:13

wherever you listen to podcasts. And let us

12:15

know what you think by writing us at

12:17

a word at slate.com. Thank you. You're

12:24

listening to A Word with Jason Johnson. They

12:26

were talking about the Trump verdict with attorney

12:28

and legal analyst, Yodit Tawalde. Despite

12:31

saying over and over again that he was

12:33

being unfairly silenced, Trump declined

12:35

to take the stand in

12:38

his own defense. How

12:40

do you think that influences the outcome?

12:42

Because I hear different legal theories. I

12:44

mean, some people find him very charismatic,

12:46

some people find him problematic, but the

12:48

fact that the guy didn't even take the stand, how

12:51

do you think that had an impact on the result? Well,

12:53

it shouldn't have an impact, but again, we're

12:56

all human, right? What jurors want to do

12:58

is really hear. They

13:00

really want to hear from a defendant, but

13:02

they're also instructed that the defendant

13:05

has a constitutional right not to take

13:07

the stand and they can't hold that

13:09

against him. So some may

13:11

see a defendant refusing to take

13:13

the stand as a sort

13:15

of a guilty conscience, right? That

13:18

you did something and so you don't want to get on the stand and get

13:20

creamed or be exposed. But

13:22

then others may think, and this is what

13:24

the defense should argue, is that

13:27

the prostitution failed to meet their burden.

13:30

There is no need for us to

13:32

put up a shred of evidence because we

13:34

don't have to. So there's no need

13:36

to put our witness or I'm sorry, our

13:38

client up on the stand because they failed

13:40

to do their job. But see

13:42

what the defense did was they put up

13:44

a witness that didn't help them at

13:47

all. What they should have done

13:49

is just shut it down, right? Like

13:51

we we've creamed Cohen on the stand.

13:53

We've exposed his lies on the stand

13:55

right before your eyes. We

13:57

Don't need to put up a shred of evidence,

13:59

including putting up our client. I'll drop they shouldn't

14:02

hold that against them And and honestly, I don't

14:04

think that they did. it's ah, I just think

14:06

that they believed. The. Evidence that

14:08

the prosecution presented as it. So.

14:11

You mentioned it. It depends on

14:14

we had one person. That.

14:16

They brought up and you say that

14:18

they didn't necessarily help who's the one

14:20

witness that Trump's defense brought forward in

14:22

him. Why? Did that person not

14:24

help? Like wide, they end up at least

14:26

in your view, actually damaging his defense more

14:29

than both areas. Where. We knew

14:31

ahead uses that a quit and

14:33

they had really really late in

14:35

two. Michael Cohen in really undercut

14:37

his credibility. They had a really

14:39

good day and course and I

14:41

thought that you know you gotta

14:43

stop at that point because you

14:45

could create a situation. That you didn't

14:47

for see and. So putting up a

14:49

witness like Costello that was the

14:52

attorney for Ah Giuliani to try

14:54

to you know still go at

14:56

points. Credibility I thought was just

14:58

beating a dead horse at that.

15:00

Point right, I think the jury. Had gotten the

15:02

points that the defense was find a pain

15:04

com when as a convicted perjury that he

15:07

was lying right before their eyes we just

15:09

caught and you just saw it on the

15:11

we're not talking about just all lies but

15:13

just new ones that is creating on the

15:16

stand as the put up a combative witness

15:18

who didn't really come off well who really

15:20

angered the judge arm was really kind of

15:23

disrespectful to the judge com a it is

15:25

certain moments in the trial in front of

15:27

the jury just wasn't a good luck overall

15:29

and they could have done without. That.

15:32

Witness. Use. An interesting thing about

15:34

this look for Trump is always. You've

15:36

got to persecution complex. You know, White nationalist.

15:39

We know these things and you know he's

15:41

always been saying all this. this trial was

15:43

purely about politics arm. You know it's it's

15:45

just it's lawfare. They're coming against me. But

15:48

I want to ask you this Yogi as

15:50

sort of legal expert You've You've covered these

15:52

sorts of things for years, or the charges

15:55

that were brought against Trump. He has now

15:57

been found guilty of. how

15:59

often Is somebody prosecuted

16:01

for something else like this? How

16:04

often is someone prosecuted for this

16:07

kind of fraud or cooking the books like is

16:09

this normal? Is this the kind of thing that

16:11

people get in trouble for or does Trump have

16:13

I guess a little bit of credibility

16:15

and saying Hey, I'm being singled out for this because people do this

16:17

all the time and they don't get in trouble No

16:21

Trump is not getting special scrutiny

16:23

right falsifying business records

16:25

This is a white-collar crime

16:27

charge and it's brought routinely

16:29

by the Manhattan DA's office. It's their

16:32

bread and butter They charge

16:34

less famous not so well-known local politicians

16:36

with the same thing So no, and

16:38

I will say that Trump in

16:40

the same breath I think was

16:43

getting special treatment when it came to the

16:45

gag order because anybody in

16:47

his position would have been imprisoned at

16:49

least for a day and the fact that he

16:51

was able to go out after

16:53

every court date talk to the

16:56

media and really Violate the

16:58

gag order then get around

17:00

it by having his political plastics. I

17:02

think is what you called them Before

17:07

and have them violate the gag

17:09

order. I believe that he didn't

17:11

get special treatment He

17:13

would have been in jail had had it been anybody else

17:16

besides the presumptive GOP nominee for

17:18

the election this year So I

17:21

I don't think that he was getting special

17:23

scrutiny. No, this is what the Manhattan DA's

17:25

office This is what they charge on a

17:27

regular basis the driving

17:30

force behind this prosecution was Manhattan

17:32

district attorney Alvin Bragg and There

17:35

aren't that many black people who have

17:38

Key roles and prosecuting these

17:41

kinds of cases across the country. We do have him.

17:43

We do have you know, Fonnie Willis down

17:45

in Georgia But you

17:47

know Alvin Bragg has been sort of

17:49

a central figure in this from the

17:52

beginning both getting scrutiny and praise from

17:54

time to time how

17:56

has Race Sort

17:58

of played out. How is the fact that

18:01

Trump was being prosecuted by this black? The

18:03

A come out in terms of things that

18:05

Trump said his surrogates said, or even the

18:08

perception up. and how how do you think.

18:10

Race played a role in this. I

18:12

mean it can assist. Season For this

18:15

narrative that you know Trump is

18:17

Canada's. Ah, Grabbed onto from

18:19

the very first time he ran for

18:21

president. is that you know if he's

18:23

being targeted in some way And in,

18:25

it's not a coincidence that I'm being

18:27

targeted by this. You know, left

18:30

leaning? You know, liberal black man?

18:32

black woman? whoever, you're really see

18:34

that machine, that narrative that he

18:36

wants to run with. None of

18:38

this is what. Doesn't hear about

18:40

the legal ramifications of all this.

18:42

all he cares about. Is

18:44

his campaign. And so if

18:47

he didn't create this story. That.

18:49

He is being targeted by Album

18:51

Bragg who who ran as a

18:54

democrat and I and I remember

18:56

actually I'm interviewing him before he

18:58

was on elected. If he can

19:01

say, look at all these people

19:03

who are targeting me including the

19:05

judge whose daughter works for you

19:07

know, a democratic organization? Look at

19:10

the prosecution who is made up

19:12

of democrat either. Juri they're all

19:14

democrat is what he was saying.

19:17

So if you know it, definitely.

19:19

Does feed into the narrative. And yeah

19:21

being the central figure that the black

19:23

Me and I believe he even you

19:25

know insulted him and called him Alvin

19:27

Woody that I don't even want to

19:29

repeat, it is garbage. Are. Grappling

19:31

played in I think. To.

19:33

This narrative that you know the people

19:36

of color. Are certainly not for

19:38

Donald Trump in this trial. that is

19:40

so I I definitely think race plays

19:42

a role no matter what on a

19:44

plays a role in the makeup of

19:46

Juri. He's. probably going to talk about

19:48

the makeup of the jury soon ah not

19:50

not only are they from manhattan so they're

19:52

liberals but you know some were you know

19:55

half of them are people so i'm not

19:57

sure i wouldn't be surprised if he actually

19:59

went back So, you know, it

20:02

Fonny Willis being the person in

20:04

Georgia heading the prosecution there against

20:06

him So yeah, it plays well

20:08

into his narrative for sure We're

20:11

gonna take a short break. We come back

20:13

more about the Trump verdict with legal analyst.

20:16

Yo D to all day This is word

20:18

with Jason Johnson. Stay tuned It's

20:24

opinion palooza season here at slate I'm

20:27

Dio let's wake the host of amicus slate's

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I'm Josh Levine my

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21:25

to justify slashing aid to the poor Now

21:28

it's time to hear her real story For

21:31

the course of four episodes you'll find

21:33

out what was done to Linda Taylor The

21:39

great lesson of this For me

21:41

is that people will come to their own

21:43

conclusions based on what their prejudices are Subscribe

21:46

to the Queen on Apple podcasts or

21:49

wherever you're listening right now You're

21:55

listening to a word with Jason Johnson today

21:57

we're talking with legal analyst Yody Tawalde about

21:59

the birth in Donald Trump's New

22:01

York trial. So this is

22:03

the other thing that gets me. I

22:05

don't know if this happened to you, because like

22:08

I said, we're talking very soon after this happened.

22:10

So of course, my phone is blowing up. I'm

22:12

texting you, I'm getting texts from friends and family,

22:14

and the questions that people are asking are like,

22:17

okay, what happens next? Is

22:20

he gonna go to jail? Does Trump have the

22:22

right to vote for himself if he's a convicted

22:24

felon? So I'll just start with the simple one.

22:28

What's the next step for each side? I

22:30

mean, Trump says he's gonna appeal. Is

22:32

that gonna happen anytime soon? Until

22:35

the appeal, like when do we hear sentencing?

22:37

Like what's the next legal step here? There

22:39

are phases of a trial. You

22:41

got jury selection as a one phase.

22:43

The second phase is a guilt innocence,

22:45

which we just saw wrapped up with

22:48

guilty verdicts on all 34 counts. And

22:51

then there's the punishment phase. And

22:53

I believe the felony convictions

22:55

here calls for a

22:57

sentence of up to four years in

22:59

jail. Will Trump ever see the inside of a

23:02

prison cell? Not likely. He's

23:04

probably gonna get probation because this

23:06

is a man, of course, who has never

23:08

been convicted of a crime. So he has no criminal

23:10

record. Like any person who's

23:12

being punished for a crime

23:14

they've been convicted of who

23:16

has no criminal history would

23:18

more likely get probation. Appeals

23:21

are normal. This is what they do. Donald

23:23

Trump is trying to appeal the gag order

23:26

that the judge implemented. So he's going to

23:28

appeal. That's just his right. And

23:30

I believe throughout the trial,

23:32

the attorneys were preserving certain

23:35

issues for appeal. So they're

23:37

probably already, they probably

23:39

already have that thing ready to go, especially

23:41

since they were objecting and trying to get

23:43

things on the record for this very reason

23:45

in the event that they're gonna need to

23:47

stand on certain issues for appeal

23:49

reasons. Judge

23:52

Marchon is gonna be doing the

23:54

sentencing and it's for July 11th.

23:57

And this is something that the jury doesn't have to worry

23:59

about. This is not- for the judge to

24:01

take up. So again, up to four years

24:04

for each count. There were 34 and he

24:08

is likely to get probation, but he is going to be a, he

24:11

is a convicted felon and

24:13

a convicted felon can't

24:16

vote. So on November 5th,

24:18

you know, he won't be able to cast

24:20

that vote for himself, but he

24:23

is, it's crazy that we're allowing

24:25

somebody to run for the

24:27

highest office in the land who is

24:29

a felon. If this was his

24:31

opponent, we'd be hearing that all day. This is,

24:34

you know, crazy and bizarre and how

24:36

can this happen? But it's happening. And

24:38

so it's crazy that people

24:41

who are convicted with felonies

24:43

can't vote, but you got

24:46

a guy who's running for president asking for

24:48

votes who's a felon. Crazy. We've

24:50

mentioned Fonnie Willis. I'm under

24:52

the impression that this ruling might be

24:55

the only one that

24:57

we get before the November election.

24:59

Is that the case? Is there any chance

25:01

that the Georgia case or the

25:03

Jan six, is there any chance that any of

25:06

these other cases will have a full trial

25:08

and a verdict before November? Well,

25:10

you know, Fonnie Willis's case could have

25:12

gone even before this

25:15

one. Had it not been

25:17

for one of the co-defendants

25:19

raising the issue of her needing to

25:21

recuse herself from the case due

25:24

to personal reasons. So this is

25:26

the only one. And what has worked

25:28

for Donald Trump and his team and

25:32

what they've done so well is

25:34

find mechanisms to delay and

25:37

it's worked to their benefit. This

25:39

one, they could not delay. They tried and

25:42

it proceeded. And this is what

25:44

they were hoping wasn't going to happen, but

25:46

it did. How it affects

25:48

his campaign. Not sure. But I would

25:50

say that he has gotten, he's

25:53

gotten pretty lucky so far, even with these

25:55

convictions, it could have been more because this

25:58

is something that people don't necessarily understand. It

26:00

was a complicated case. It wasn't

26:02

as clear-cut. It wasn't about Stormy

26:05

Daniels, these affairs, even though those are,

26:07

you know, embarrassing details that came out.

26:09

Falsifying business records just doesn't sound serious

26:12

enough not to vote for this man.

26:14

So I would say he got lucky that

26:17

it wasn't one

26:19

of the trials that had more concrete charges

26:21

that people could really wrap their minds around.

26:23

So yeah, I think he still got lucky.

26:25

I who knows how this

26:27

is going to affect. I would say

26:29

that I saw some poll where there

26:32

were people who said they didn't care

26:34

if he got convicted. So I mean,

26:36

you know, there's that. But then you

26:38

have other polls that suggest that independents

26:40

who couldn't bring themselves to vote for

26:42

a man who was convicted of

26:44

a felony. So who knows how this is going

26:46

to affect him? But I would say that he

26:49

got off pretty pretty good considering how many of

26:51

these trials could have gone before

26:53

the election. So I have

26:56

to ask you this. It's funny. Usually at the end of

26:58

the show, I'm like, oh, how can people follow you? But

27:00

obviously people can follow you online.

27:02

You've been doing legal analysis for years. The

27:05

question that I'm left with that I hope

27:07

you can provide us an answer to is

27:09

like what do you think

27:11

is going to be the

27:14

legacy, like the takeaway from this

27:16

process? I hear people on the

27:18

air, you know, right now, right after the verdict saying,

27:20

hey, this shows accountability. This

27:22

shows that the process works. I don't

27:24

feel that right, right? Like I'm like,

27:27

okay, this guy did this terrible thing.

27:29

I don't think he's gonna serve. We don't know. I

27:31

don't think he's gonna serve jail time. So it doesn't

27:33

feel like accountability to me. He's not

27:35

kept off the ballot. So it doesn't seem like

27:37

accountability to me. But there is

27:39

something to be said about a country where

27:42

the former president of the United States

27:45

recently, not 25-30 years ago, can

27:48

be taken to trial and found

27:50

guilty. So what do you think is

27:53

the legacy of this case sort of moving

27:55

forward? That's a hard question to

27:57

answer because I kind of do feel like you

27:59

do. And this is a

28:01

system that I've worked in for over a

28:03

decade in the criminal system. And so

28:06

it infuriates me when this man is saying that

28:08

this is a rigged trial,

28:10

that he has been targeted and

28:13

that he's been treated unfairly. When

28:15

I've seen people be treated unfairly,

28:17

right, he was not treated unfairly.

28:19

In fact, he was definitely given

28:22

more privileges than the average

28:24

defendant. And allowing

28:26

this person to continue

28:30

on and run

28:32

for office, for the highest office

28:34

in this country,

28:36

is sort of a backhanded

28:39

way of trying to tell people that the

28:42

system works. Because

28:44

you have people who lose so

28:46

much when they are charged, when

28:49

they are found guilty of a crime,

28:52

and they're on probation. I mean, there are

28:54

so many limitations that they have to experience,

28:56

and yet you have this white man. He

28:58

has the biggest platform in the world, so

29:00

to speak, and could

29:02

dictate people's lives in a

29:04

way that, you know, he already

29:07

has. And how is that

29:09

justice? How is that supposed to

29:11

teach us that the system works?

29:13

So I understand that argument. But

29:15

I also do believe that this

29:17

tells people that it doesn't matter

29:19

if you used to be

29:21

the president, you commit crimes, we're going to

29:23

come and get you. Even if you think that

29:26

this crime is something that's

29:28

unimportant, it shows

29:30

accountability. And I

29:32

want to say that I'm very

29:34

impressed with the prosecution, given

29:37

the gravity of it all, to still pursue

29:40

it. Because I believe that the DA before

29:42

Alvin Bragg decided not to pursue the charge.

29:45

And I thought that it was very big

29:47

and brave of Alvin Bragg, given

29:50

who he is, this black man,

29:52

holding this position of power to

29:54

still move forward with the

29:56

evidence that they had, which obviously

29:58

convicted him on all threats. So

30:00

very proud of the

30:02

prosecution, very proud of

30:05

the jury. And that's

30:07

the biggest takeaway. The jury didn't

30:10

volunteer for this. I'm sure every single one

30:12

of them didn't want to serve on this

30:14

jury, right? But they still

30:17

stuck through it through several weeks

30:20

of the former president literally in the

30:22

same room a couple feet away from

30:24

them, right? And having

30:26

to take different routes home just

30:28

so they can be safe, and

30:30

really, honestly, the alternates as

30:33

well, not even being used, right?

30:36

There was no juror that needed to be

30:38

replaced by an alternate, so they really stuck

30:40

with it. They came back with 34 guilty

30:43

verdicts knowing what that could possibly

30:45

mean. It's a scary process. And

30:47

so it's important, and I can't

30:50

emphasize this enough, to

30:52

serve as jury members, to really

30:54

serve your country, to really take on

30:56

that duty and really understand the importance

30:58

of it, because

31:00

you just never know who the defendant is in a case.

31:03

And I want people to still believe in the process. I

31:05

do. It's just very

31:07

hard, and I understand the argument of, well,

31:10

we've got to see more of this guy

31:12

in our face on TV, on,

31:14

you know, these social media platforms running

31:17

for presidents, and

31:19

he could possibly win, and you've

31:22

got the most powerful person in the world, right?

31:24

Who's a convicted felon? Yodita

31:27

Walday is an attorney and legal analyst. Thank you

31:29

so much for joining us today at the last

31:31

minute on words. Thank you. And

31:34

that's a word for this week.

31:37

The show's email is a word

31:39

at slate.com. This episode was produced

31:41

by Christy Tywell Mackinjula. Ben

31:44

Richmond is Slate's senior director of

31:46

podcast operations. Alicia Montgomery is the

31:48

vice president of Slate Audio. Our

31:50

theme music was produced by Don

31:52

Will. I'm Jason Johnson. Tune in

31:55

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