0:00

And I'm just hoping with your the things that

0:02

were sharing the day and even that story that

0:04

people that are listening to this that are at

0:06

whatever stage. In the burnout that they're getting

0:08

what they need and if you're privileged enough

0:10

than the choices are easier sometimes to really

0:12

reduce the stress in one way or another.

0:15

If you're not privileged enough than it is

0:17

harder than a lot more pain and what

0:19

can we do to mitigate this and to

0:21

be able to keep your livelihood and it

0:23

doing the things that you need to do.

0:30

Any all you've already got this podcast

0:32

but if you're thinking about adding coaching

0:34

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0:36

your calendars and can find the founder.

0:38

Got a sharpie relic that sleep for

0:40

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0:42

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0:45

corner. Join us for our next registration

0:47

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0:49

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0:51

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0:53

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0:55

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0:57

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1:04

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1:06

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1:15

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1:47

Today Show. Welcome.

1:53

Back through an episode of A

1:56

D H D Rewired, Today's A

1:58

Guest is an eight page. Meet.

2:00

Had some fancy titles T

2:02

is T Lessons of Houses

2:04

certified a group a Psychotherapist

2:06

but his education on burnout

2:08

has come through his own

2:10

painful journey with burnout. He

2:12

began presenting I'm Burnout seven

2:14

years ago after witnessing the

2:16

devastating impact of burn and

2:18

compassion, fatigue and his own

2:20

life and the lives of

2:22

so many colleagues and therapy

2:25

clients. he soon with specializing

2:27

in individual and group therapy

2:29

services for healthcare professionals. Who

2:31

are caught in the deaths of burnouts

2:33

Made that a kid a significant portion

2:36

of his career to providing education and

2:38

training on these topics. And that is

2:40

how I got introduced to needs. was

2:42

at the Ted conference on that his

2:45

presentation on a burnout bad ass as

2:47

he members of my team am I

2:49

think they're succeed you for ya got

2:52

me to go to yourself. For

2:55

night Welcome to the park? Yeah, sorry I.

2:57

I am doing great! I'm excited to be

2:59

here and set was so fun estate after

3:01

that podcast and we spend about twenty minutes.

3:03

you and I think there were two of

3:05

your coaches and is such a good feeling

3:08

getting to know you and them and and

3:10

so to be able to play with you

3:12

more. today and and since then I've gotten

3:14

to know your podcast and your website, your

3:16

community of a bit than he got. A

3:18

really good thing going here so I'm glad

3:20

to be a little part of it. Oh

3:22

thank you you know it's there was a

3:24

video that showed up at the presentation of

3:26

the sas. Woman: Who ran

3:28

the marathon I who are allies

3:30

who angering sprawling her weight to

3:32

the last like hundred seat or

3:34

something. Man

3:36

that that was really powerful. Is.

3:39

Interesting because when we were talking during

3:41

via your pre interview on a your

3:43

ass make up about something like you

3:46

were. So how can Obama right get

3:48

on the podcast and it's is so

3:50

interesting as a yeah I've been running

3:52

Idiocy Rewired now for I'm I'm coming

3:55

into a decade and know have five

3:57

hundred has episodes of the podcast I

3:59

and accordingly are starting or thirty fifth

4:02

season of Coaching Group this I read

4:04

in us I've as for a while

4:06

and is has been as part of

4:09

me that that if it's I shouldn't

4:11

talk about that I'm been ceiling kind

4:13

of burnt out cars. what will people

4:15

think. Right and then is

4:18

part of and six but what

4:20

the fuck I'm a human being

4:22

and I'm running a been for

4:24

ten years the in a of

4:26

not really taken adequate so time

4:28

for rest Cillizza talk about so

4:30

what burnout is the stigma to

4:32

around burn out as an athlete

4:34

Since this. Yell and so

4:36

glad you're mentioning that. Know they're very

4:38

similar feelings that I've had in a

4:40

lot of different settings of recognizing maybe

4:42

I'm struggling with burn up, but it

4:44

doesn't seem like anyone elses. And see,

4:46

if I were to talk about it,

4:48

I'd be outing myself and then who

4:51

knows, Maybe I'd be judged or critiqued

4:53

as I am weaker, lazy or not

4:55

resilient enough, but it's really fun to

4:57

be. They become kind of a burnout

4:59

experts and even when I was back

5:01

doing agency work in the college counseling

5:03

center where there was so much burnout,

5:05

I became. Known as headed the

5:07

burnout guy. That. It still

5:09

is really hard to talk about

5:11

burnout the yet we are all

5:13

experiencing it and so it's really

5:16

fun to be on podcasts or

5:18

to do presentations to. Then we'd

5:20

get tabs more real talk and

5:22

and and it's the experience of

5:24

all. this isn't just me, this

5:26

is everyone. And at

5:28

least in the health care field where I

5:30

work. The word you see in the research

5:33

a lot is it's ubiquitous. And.

5:35

So it's almost. I mean synonymous with being

5:37

human. I think it's not a matter of

5:39

if we face burnout, it's at what point

5:41

are rescind the burnout stage at different points

5:44

in our our life. So. I think

5:46

yeah the stigma reduction is such a fun. Work.

5:48

To do and it's so fun to see people. just kind

5:51

of let down there guards a bit than be like

5:53

okay. I. Like a bit the idiots

5:55

d conference. there's either no one hundred hundred fifty

5:57

people in the room and we're all just kind

5:59

of vibe. Feeling it like yeah this is this

6:01

is everywhere in it's so nice to actually be able

6:03

to. Talk about it. Use.

6:06

It as a phrase ease

6:09

am describing burnout. Is

6:11

a burnout? Is what. They're.

6:14

Referring to I let's see if I

6:17

can get this quiz answers correct. But.

6:19

Yeah, it's an injury I think is what you're

6:22

getting at. Yeah. And.

6:25

I'd say that that idea of burn out

6:27

as injury on hire a that really resonated

6:29

with me personally in a one of the

6:31

things are sharing with my eyes my team

6:34

was that like I feel I can I

6:36

get into these these sort of stay some

6:38

of his. Tiredness and burn out

6:40

and then it is kind of dig

6:42

down deep and somewhere find this energy it

6:45

alec like that the woman that the

6:47

marathon very who crawled across the finish line

6:49

zeus and then I you know and

6:51

and get up and going on in our

6:53

it's and do not over and over

6:55

and are missing before I heard use or

6:58

phrase I have to mountains are catharsis

7:00

phrase of as feels like I am make

7:02

we scarring Brickhouse Carson and so when

7:04

I heard you saved this as brass enjoy

7:06

that okay I I I really need

7:08

to be paying attention. More to this:

7:10

yeah, how did you come up on

7:12

on had it on Tv The advertising

7:15

injury like what made you come to

7:17

that idea? Well and is that masoli

7:19

my idea? Think that's the way that

7:21

a lot of researchers talk about our

7:23

just earlier today there's an article I

7:25

think of it left up here. Looking.

7:28

At Nurses and Compassion Fatigue which

7:30

is pretty synonymous with burn out.

7:33

But. Compassion fatigue as bruises

7:35

in the sole. That's.

7:37

The title Amid you know peer reviewed

7:39

research article in Two Thousand Twenty Two

7:41

And that's a phrase you see in

7:43

the literature quite a bit. It's an

7:46

injury to the sole. I mean it.

7:48

and with burnout is is. it's just

7:50

that experiences chronic stress and the damage

7:52

that it creates on you outpaces your

7:54

ability to recover. And. Stress is

7:57

a really valuable, desirable thing. We

7:59

all want stress and when our

8:01

body can recover and responding and

8:04

grow, then it makes us stronger.

8:06

But. Then when it it's too much stress

8:09

or it's you know, every day, day

8:11

in day out and we can't recover

8:13

than yeah creates the injury. And I

8:15

think the analogy of like a stress

8:17

fracture injury as a pretty good one.

8:20

Or like tendinitis or something. Or for

8:22

a while we're able to do things

8:24

but then once injury such in the

8:26

seal the the pain. And

8:29

it is really painful. It's it's a soul

8:31

kind of pain. But.

8:33

Then as human beings and with what you're

8:35

saying, we're very resilient than yeah, We can

8:37

dig deep and we can do pretty miraculous

8:39

things. And so from one side and the

8:41

Garrick what you've done to dig deep and

8:43

pull up and keep doing what you're doing

8:45

it it is. Really? Commendable and

8:47

it's inspiring and the others is a cost

8:50

to that as well. That it's and. I.

8:53

Was I had of makes months or

8:55

interviewed awesome on the podcast of likely

8:57

kind of eighty years I don't have

8:59

a gift remember the person's name that

9:01

I thought oh now I would say

9:03

that our second said it was this

9:05

episode having sorry but it's are you

9:07

was released by Sue something about how

9:10

see business when pressing to burn out

9:12

for a decade and is now on

9:14

disability I am at ya that route

9:16

have resonated with me cause is since

9:18

idea that I'd. Okay I

9:20

I keeps furnace and semi ignoring

9:23

as a sort of deal with

9:25

it but then like not fully

9:27

knew what was your real as

9:29

a center when you first started

9:31

noticing personally for yourself am I

9:33

talk about that story for you

9:36

when you first some experience in

9:38

Brown. Yeah. Ha! So I mean

9:40

the first time I really remember having

9:42

a strong experience with burnout, I was

9:44

on internship at the University of Maine

9:46

Counseling Center. And. It

9:48

is I think march or April into

9:51

the academic year and I was not

9:53

at all paying attention Any burnouts, use

9:55

or anything. Of course we're all struggling

9:57

and and counseling centers that is a.

10:00

The for their the every year increasing

10:02

demand for services. A lot of students

10:04

needing mental health air a lot of

10:06

crises but not having the ability the

10:08

staffing the time to really be able

10:11

to meet that. So the burnout is

10:13

pretty. Pretty. Big in. I.

10:15

Mean and hot of industries but in

10:17

college counseling in particular. But I was

10:19

sitting with the client and I just

10:21

had this. Feeling. Come up inside

10:24

me Such an aversion. It was just I want

10:26

this client out of my room right now. And

10:28

it was. It was like a. Of.

10:30

An overwhelming experience and there was

10:32

nothing about that particular client. but

10:35

the best. Analogy I can

10:37

come up with his when you're at an all

10:39

you can eat buffet and you're eating and maybe

10:41

really enjoying it. May be really good food not

10:43

thing it entered your hundred years and but then

10:45

all of a sudden it's like wall like not

10:47

another bite. I have never going to eat again

10:49

in my life. Lessons. For it

10:52

was that kind of experience and

10:54

then talking with the colleague supervisors

10:56

after that session. That. Some

10:58

people are starting use that word burn

11:00

out as like ah, And

11:02

then just another I guess story. several

11:04

years later to different counseling center. Sexually.

11:07

Brought in this big from that was doing

11:09

a huge analysis to try to understand the

11:11

mental health needs of the students how to

11:13

better meet those needs. So they talked with

11:16

the university president than all in a different

11:18

departments a lot of parents and students and

11:20

then we had a four hour meeting with

11:22

them and they college counseling center and we're

11:25

really talking about how can we improve therapy

11:27

services for students and all these ideas can

11:29

tell a therapy and for to the appointment

11:31

length and all these things on. But then

11:34

they had us as they asked this question

11:36

whoop and. Five years? What would be

11:38

the ideal thing so that students were

11:40

getting their mental health needs met? And

11:43

I. Spoke. Up and

11:45

just that. I can't picture that happening

11:47

with out the mental health of us.

11:50

This. Practitioners. Being

11:52

intact and the whole feel of the

11:54

meeting sifted. And of course, it's really

11:56

important be focusing on the students, but.

11:59

There. Is is. The first time that the

12:01

from their think will yeah what about these

12:03

practitioners in the the lead guy he said.

12:06

I'm only aware of one

12:09

research article on burn Out

12:11

for college student therapists, but

12:13

it was. It. Was after

12:16

that that kind of one by one a

12:18

lot of the team members a lame left

12:20

because it was kind of clear the writing

12:22

on the wall that. We.

12:24

Can't change this context enough. Even though

12:27

we're desperately trying to, we're bringing firms

12:29

in paying lots of money. but we,

12:31

we. We can't And so and

12:33

we were privileged enough that I was able

12:35

to transition into private practice, and other colleagues

12:38

said, you know places to go. So.

12:40

Yeah and and I'm just hoping with your the

12:42

things that were saying today and even that story

12:44

that people that are listening to this that are

12:47

at whatever stage in the burn out. That.

12:49

They're getting what they need. And.

12:51

It is. I think I'd have a harsh reality but

12:54

a of real thing with a lot of the people

12:56

that I work with him in therapy or and group

12:58

therapy. That. Yeah, we need to

13:00

make some hard choices here. Maybe. And

13:02

if your privileges and us then the

13:04

choices are easier sometimes to really reduce

13:06

the stress in one way or another.

13:09

If you're not privileged enough than it is harder and

13:11

as a lot more pain and what can we do

13:13

to mitigate this and for you to be able to

13:15

keep your livelihood and he doing the things you need

13:17

to do. So. Before we

13:20

discussed solutions Why? It's what are

13:22

some of the things that maybe

13:24

aren't clear? We are immediately obvious

13:26

to people that are us and

13:28

science and burnout. Yeah. Good

13:30

question. So. The exhaustion

13:32

is a piece of it. So being

13:34

more and more tired, less and less

13:36

energy, less and less motivated. Course.

13:39

Folks As A D H D

13:41

there's all kinds of energy, ridiculous

13:43

and challenges Anyway, yeah as cynicism

13:45

or some sort of detachment and

13:48

so is and will not be

13:50

different from went may may be

13:52

easily feel towards something right? The

13:54

new found cynicism. Can.

13:57

And. Say I mean if her tell you that would say.

14:00

Burn. it's maybe. Oh, I love this

14:02

job. Oh, I'm really excited over wanted

14:04

do well as meaningful to me. But

14:06

then I start to lose that it

14:08

becomes more meaningless. er, hard. I get

14:11

more cynical or more detached. Are

14:13

more like I have to go into work

14:15

and go through the steps but not really

14:17

be thinking about it. I'm coping in that

14:19

kind of way and is inserted the way

14:21

to cope with the stress. If I can

14:23

somehow detach or feel more nom are immune

14:25

to it than I am, I'm at least

14:27

not is aware of the injuries that are

14:29

happening. But. It is. It

14:31

it can become Nine. I'm angry and pressure.

14:34

I'm annoyed. I like, I don't like this.

14:36

What's the point of this. And. Then

14:38

another big sign is this the sense of

14:40

inasmuch as the A don't feel like I'm

14:42

able to do what I want to do.

14:44

I'm not having the impact and. And

14:47

usually that starts out as a perception that

14:49

kind of feel that way but then quickly

14:51

can become that than and then I'm not

14:53

actually doing two part time doing the bare

14:56

minimum. Does not get fired. May be here

14:58

to skate by and. To

15:00

just the way to try to. Survive.

15:05

And you see that there's also like,

15:07

how do you? How do you differentiate

15:09

between like was may be a seasonal

15:11

depression or. The all different

15:14

coexist in disorder that often come with

15:16

a D C. Good

15:19

question. Will often times there are

15:21

two occurring thing that burnout. It's

15:23

or in the diagnostic manual so

15:25

the international one that's used there

15:27

is a code for workplace burn

15:29

and so you differentiate that that

15:31

yeah the work is what's causing

15:33

this stress and and the symptoms

15:35

of burn out to line up

15:37

a lot with depression. And

15:39

so it's often times in the literature

15:41

called like a Workplace depression. So.

15:44

It's it's a it's a context

15:46

driven depression, situational depression. but then

15:48

of course it. It can permeate

15:50

all aspects of your life. And

15:53

I'm really burned out at work

15:55

then, and I might for a

15:57

while. Usually Igate they get burned

15:59

out when. Go into work and I hear

16:01

people tell stories. Geico the other Monday morning and

16:03

opening up that door to going to work is

16:05

just. ah. But. Then when I leave

16:07

work for the day will who have I

16:10

feel so much better but it can you

16:12

know permeate in the whole all aspects of

16:14

life. First one of the things

16:16

that burn out it's understood of is that it's

16:18

and so. For. With a D H

16:21

D would be the mismatch between how

16:23

I am and the demands the stressors

16:25

placed on me by whatever context that

16:27

it isn't worth school home. And

16:31

yeah, what? What about like

16:33

differentiating between and burn Out

16:35

and Fortnum. Class

16:37

and same sentiment yet so

16:39

I know when things are.

16:42

Not as interesting or united. Excited to

16:45

announce a thing as he once was

16:47

are worth advance back be part of

16:49

I have a D C O M

16:51

been doing this for a while. Like

16:54

my son's assertiveness or is it eyes

16:56

are St Bernard select the saying but

16:58

the something about you know how they

17:00

these links have a working or how

17:03

I'm feeling managed to snap and dealing.

17:05

the site matter anymore and how to

17:07

differentiate between that. Yeah. I

17:09

think I've I'm understanding and so that

17:11

the boredom of course isn't the burn

17:13

out that there be increased stress with

17:16

that. So a lot of people with

17:18

a D H d when something is

17:20

board it takes so much more than

17:22

the of boring. it takes so much

17:24

more energy to do that to sustain

17:26

the attention to complete the task. so

17:28

the the amount of stress is a

17:30

lot higher than it would be for

17:32

other people are they might still be

17:34

boring to them but it's it's less

17:36

stressful so I think the differentiation would

17:38

be disturbed. Chronic this of it than

17:40

and. I think if your situation

17:43

is demanding that you have to keep doing

17:45

the boring thing over and over and over

17:47

again, Ill get past the point of all

17:49

this is hard. It's taking a lot of

17:51

energy that. But. It's it's hurting

17:53

me. I'm I'm injured with this and then

17:55

even thinking about it is with us or

17:57

then even things that are adjacent to it.

18:01

Oh yeah I don't have hopefully that candidates that

18:03

years question and. The. I can. Biggest

18:05

thing part of their their the I'm

18:07

wondering about to I'm missing much some

18:09

listeners who in the center for an

18:11

hour is. How important

18:13

it is when we are trying to

18:15

com with solutions for things that we

18:17

are first identifying to write problem as

18:19

if we another problem that sense of

18:21

service looser and try isn't going to

18:23

be a helpful as a how do

18:25

we identify yes this is are now.

18:28

Might. Might else. So the people

18:30

that I work with their in

18:32

the throes a burnout. They didn't

18:35

recognize it, so my immediate reaction

18:37

to that is. At least

18:39

from my bias. My perspective is oh, it's. It's.

18:43

It's. Burn out before even know it's burn out.

18:48

But. I might be biased and are probably people

18:50

listening that are not in the throes. They're not

18:52

the clinical level of what I see and they

18:54

are in more that prevention place. So. I

18:56

work a lot essentially with the recovery people

18:59

that are burned out there. Like the marathon

19:01

runner that you talked about that his hit

19:03

the Raul, maybe ran a little bit too

19:05

fast but now their legs buckled in there,

19:07

they're crawling and so that runner didn't recognize

19:09

the burn out that was leading up to

19:12

it all along. So I think it is

19:14

a really good question and there are assessments

19:16

online. It is something of you'd want to

19:18

talk with someone in and try to understand.

19:21

And. If you're in that place of up wanting

19:23

to ward off burnout than it is. I can

19:25

reduce the stress a bit, taken prune, and prioritize.

19:27

They can change things a bit here and there.

19:29

If it's someone it's in the throes of depressed

19:32

or of a Qb burnout. We really need to

19:34

pull up big guns here, and so hopefully that's

19:36

helpful for any listeners trying to differentiate. Am I?

19:38

Am I on the path to burn out and

19:41

they need to make a few small changes? Are.

19:43

No. I've been burned out for a while

19:45

and ignoring it or minimizing are scared to talk

19:48

about it and I think I usually injuries. A

19:51

radius is gonna be so challenging to cause

19:53

like I am for myself it's like Isis

19:55

I'm sorry like X and him particular day

19:57

is to the sound like in the. Recent

20:00

then they don't realize that I've had

20:02

exhausted until I like actually starts means

20:04

the any of taking breaks or how

20:06

helpful it is for the longevity of

20:09

focus Hartman Day. I. Am hormones

20:11

had some race is a a time I

20:13

as it emerged that as it's a good

20:15

good restored a break from dynamic. I really

20:17

ought to do that more often A now

20:19

that I thought back to the basket on

20:21

my arm right ready to roll and yet

20:23

it's like by don't get those cues of

20:25

oh about you take a break until I'm

20:27

like exhausted my brain to steal fried the

20:29

ha. says. Is not part

20:31

of? Is that how you do things? Naturally

20:33

that without the external buffers, a reminder, their

20:36

schedules that your your mind your body with

20:38

this hyper focused go through thing work, work,

20:40

work through did you go Go go. And

20:42

of course all the benefits that come with

20:44

that that to a point Yeah the shadow.

20:47

The Downside: This burn out that comes with

20:49

a tune. says. Yes, some

20:51

good counter intuitive things you need to

20:53

implement and. Service. Or

20:55

or strategies in just a moment. First

20:57

forensic a quick a break so we

21:00

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21:49

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21:51

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21:58

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22:03

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22:28

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22:30

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22:35

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24:51

Rights we are back with

24:53

mate page or it. So

24:55

let's as gives a talking

24:57

about some. Solutions. Some

24:59

strategies ah for really addressing er an hour

25:02

and a a meaningful way once you're in

25:04

the throes of a pretty want to look

25:06

at the once you're recognizing our on given

25:09

burnt out and I also out with we

25:11

have time would love to give talk

25:13

about how do we prevent this so we

25:15

don't can get into this this cycle of

25:17

Burnham zoos. Are so suck

25:20

like the banded first one hundred

25:22

points or for three or in

25:24

that that states are we do.

25:26

Full. List but I

25:28

can really talk about his from my perspective.

25:31

Been working with people in therapy and individual

25:33

group settings Is you want to do a

25:35

good assessment and you are already talking about

25:37

this. Eric if you're trying to find out

25:40

what is the cause a differentiate things. Because

25:43

once I know that cause then

25:45

the the solution. The trick for

25:47

hacked the treatment just naturally follows

25:49

that and with burnout we want

25:52

to really look at what is

25:54

causing distress. And. It can

25:56

be so many different things for just looking

25:58

at the workplace and but. We're trying

26:00

to understand the the mismatch between

26:02

how I am and and my

26:05

contact the my, my family, my

26:07

home life, other relationships. And.

26:09

So there's six categories, at least from

26:11

the literature looking at work and I

26:13

go through those with clients to try

26:15

to identify the different mean hot spots

26:18

is one way to say it. The

26:20

way that the stress is really pushing

26:22

on people day in day out. the

26:24

quantity is the place the people go

26:26

to Most like I'm working too many

26:28

hours. So. Yeah, that's important to think

26:30

about the intensity. But. There's also big

26:32

things like how much control do I

26:34

really have and it really concrete burnout.

26:36

Defy have a lot of responsibility. They

26:39

need to take care but not the

26:41

ability to really do that. So to

26:43

choose how much I take on or

26:45

to have access to the resources to

26:47

be able to beat these demands. But.

26:49

It's also looking at relationships and maybe

26:52

some of the toxicity your the pressures

26:54

that you get from a boss or

26:56

coworkers that don't really fit the screening

26:59

too much. Stress Fairness as a big

27:01

one. And. Perceived unfairness like if I'm

27:03

working really hard but not getting the credit

27:05

for that I can really bring people out

27:08

and then a big one is just as

27:10

a mismatch and values if of this is

27:12

how I like to do things. this feels

27:14

natural thing group within me but I'm I'm

27:16

in a job or another setting around my

27:19

spouse or something does things differently but I

27:21

feel like I have to do it in

27:23

that way and and so day in day

27:25

out I'm going against what feels right me

27:27

to do things in a different way so

27:30

that creates that. Extra stress

27:32

on. And. So

27:34

so I mean as. It

27:37

does Alcoholics Anonymous world. As

27:40

a good to a fearless inventory. Is

27:42

the phrasing that's used to that kind of

27:44

thing to do of really fearless inventory of

27:46

what are these things? And and Eric you're

27:49

talking about board and so as if I'd

27:51

be really cares? What are these boring tasks

27:53

day in day out there that you're needing

27:55

to do that are creating extra stress on

27:57

you and how to me and her to

27:59

prevent simply how do we minimize doesn't get

28:01

it back to her, It's sustainable on a

28:04

day to day basis. I can do enough

28:06

boring things and recover. Enough for the

28:08

the next day so to speak. If you're in the

28:10

throes of burnout, it it is more of we need

28:12

to figure out a way to for a while. Really?

28:15

Reduce that get the stress. Down.

28:17

And the metaphorical stress fracture that you

28:19

have. That not gonna

28:22

recover. By. Just reducing things. It's

28:24

gonna recover if you have enough time.

28:27

Where you're not facing the stressors. The

28:30

hopefully this is helpful for any listeners

28:32

levy to. Try. To think through.

28:34

Yeah, my relationships nine the values

28:36

that I have. What? What is

28:38

the stress that is causing his

28:40

soul injuries? And

28:43

fairness when it's really interesting and I don't.

28:46

Think. That we are some think about

28:48

that in the context of what makes this

28:50

ah see like we're not a good as

28:52

slow and are was setting ah yes so

28:54

we have a more accurate famously setting my

28:57

mind just pop to even do like relationship

28:59

counseling and friends and say of sometimes clients

29:01

that bill start to say all yeah why

29:04

is it that we always watch the movie

29:06

that my partner want to watch and for

29:08

the either go to the recent they want

29:10

to wait for sometimes. Sing. Those

29:13

mismatches in a relationship and I feel

29:15

like I'm the one that. Are

29:17

continually take on the stress that it

29:19

doesn't seem like my partner does that.

29:21

So. That's a an elite. The

29:23

metaphor that. I used

29:25

in the H D presentation you

29:28

into his were searching for the

29:30

pebbles in the shoes they create

29:32

the so those extra stressors so

29:34

in your workplace setting or with

29:36

the big deal it. You

29:38

know, whatever it is. And in particular folks

29:40

with a D H D. And.

29:42

It's something now that I'm in the eighties

29:44

d world. And yeah, I was diagnosed and

29:47

two or three years ago and so saddam

29:49

my client. Always worth neuro diverse. And

29:52

I just didn't kind of know it did

29:54

that. we were good match on that really

29:56

has returned to all find each other I

29:58

think as a guy now. Of an

30:00

undiagnosed version of out there who realized

30:02

I just weird like all my my

30:04

clients seem to have a D C

30:06

O two I mean number of times

30:09

I've heard that sorry man and professional

30:11

Ohio it's pretty wild the enemy We

30:13

could go down that path. But

30:16

yeah with it it's I'm just doing it

30:18

So much more of my clients and clinicians

30:20

like water the mismatches with you and your

30:22

A D H D and. Your

30:24

contacts with the demands that are placed on

30:26

you day in day out and it's it's

30:29

so fun to and we did to do

30:31

that work of oh. Cited.

30:33

As change this or that and the

30:35

presentation you did. Eric Hd conference of

30:37

looking at a I and different way

30:39

than hearing so I think you have

30:41

done that so many ways and you

30:43

walk into your house the knew he

30:45

was have the systems in place and

30:47

you read hopefully at least able to

30:49

reduce so much stress that otherwise you

30:51

would be burdening. By

30:53

you being smart with setting up your context

30:55

in a way that's really conducive to you

30:58

and. You know what

31:00

I'm saying is when I when I

31:02

examine talking to my team about member

31:04

now and we talk about how many

31:06

even I target mother smoked my code

31:08

some groups that I'm in this comes

31:10

from a house for the name of

31:12

the author on Iran is both ah

31:15

called burn Out on. Where. It's

31:17

not necessary but as amazing that

31:19

this the stress or but assessment

31:21

dealing with the stress itself like

31:24

the actual since upon components of

31:26

stress to exercise and white what

31:28

are your thoughts on. Are.

31:30

We as a deal with his stress

31:32

so it's it's beyond were managing at

31:34

how the late fees and doesn't me

31:36

a pile on creating this this is

31:39

awful exhaustion on that ends up leading

31:41

to burn out. As

31:43

I'm Leona should check out the Book

31:45

of your Lives Remembered as a me

31:47

that that is really important. I see

31:49

that all the time where we identify

31:51

the stress source. But that

31:53

is. That doesn't reduce the stress to

31:55

get rid of that to their the new stress or

31:57

I'd stress now that I don't have that are yeah.

32:00

Get to talk to my partner about this

32:02

discrepancy or talk to my boss. And so

32:04

yet is the actual stress that causing the

32:06

injury? And I just have

32:09

the experience so much with people.

32:11

That it it is more stressful to

32:13

try to reduce the stress and so

32:16

that is. Kind of found some sort

32:18

of homeostasis in whatever their life is

32:20

And so it is one reason that

32:22

I think the therapy can be helpful.

32:24

It's helping people are how do I

32:26

give myself that break inside my own

32:29

head? Inside my own skin. And.

32:31

It's it's something that's really helpful to in the

32:33

group work is being able to. Practice.

32:36

That with other people and have the vicarious

32:38

learning seeing other people do it that other

32:40

people be able. Oh come on, come on,

32:42

just have yourself a break. Just. To.

32:45

Stop beating yourself up and estimate

32:47

years may be wrong. Are lazier

32:49

horrible in the Slayer that way?

32:52

So. I think maybe that's what you're getting at.

32:54

Maybe that book was getting at. The

32:57

ads for tennis or Emily not

32:59

Miguel skis and and problem mispronouncing

33:01

the last name. bless the author

33:03

of that book or out I'm

33:05

single and like exercise, sex and

33:07

like minutes and were like there

33:09

are three main thing for with

33:11

a glass is ways actually like

33:13

a dress. Bernard. The

33:15

just stress as not just taking a

33:17

break. Or which is what people say

33:20

Yes, full and and that's that's assassinating. Think

33:22

to A to a lot of I work

33:24

with a lot of college students and their

33:26

lot of college since with idiots d and

33:28

there is burnout while they're in school but

33:30

then when they're not in school. So.

33:32

Changing that stress or does

33:34

for them reduce the stress.

33:37

But. I think you in and family in this

33:39

book is getting out of course the lot

33:41

of ways that all the stress is just Fyi

33:43

no matter what the navy other is like an

33:45

anxiety disorder at play as well or I

33:47

think a lot of times for maybe I'll share

33:50

this. From. One of the fascinating thing

33:52

for me when I was starting to think about it

33:54

deep, they just thought no, it's not a D H

33:56

D Anxiety is one of the big thing for me

33:58

my whole life, but when. Really started working

34:01

on the anxiety in my early

34:03

mid twenties and my my perfectionism

34:05

the Imposter syndrome is that went

34:07

down. My. Hd Symptoms:

34:10

Were. So much more President and a kind

34:13

of felt like they went up and so

34:15

when my anxiety goes up, the A D

34:17

H D Simpsons they're Not is. Visible

34:19

and at that's how I managed them is

34:21

when I more anxious. I don't lose things

34:24

as much. They can be more organized, they

34:26

can pay attention more, takes a lot of

34:28

energy. And so I think with

34:30

eighty it's the in particular. There's people

34:32

that that. Pressure. That anxiety that

34:35

stress is so valuable that even if

34:37

I change my contacts that still is

34:39

gonna be there. So yeah, need to

34:41

figure out with exercise with sex with

34:43

human connections? How do I. Yeah.

34:45

Reduce that stress to where it's more at. a. Breathe.

34:48

In breathe out kind of way. As.

34:51

Opposed to I'm just breathing and and just it's

34:53

just stress. And

34:57

runs into is so much and incentives for

35:00

lot of other disorders but like. Comparing

35:02

where you're at now whenever

35:04

your baseline is isn't I.

35:07

Am getting agitated more civil rights or at

35:10

a normal thing or that a new thing

35:12

or on like not caring about the sucks

35:14

that I'm have known as as as a

35:16

new thing or that may or may. Tend

35:19

to be or your family. So and for

35:21

for me when I still love the warmth

35:23

and idea one of the things I've been

35:25

noticing about I own can him burnout is.

35:28

A sort of lacking a brain space

35:30

to to create into do new things

35:32

and take a new projects where i

35:35

as decide a I I during my

35:37

brains is it's almost as long as

35:39

it's like now now now to engine

35:41

in a hurry Now yeah. answer

35:44

like when i'm in group of i love

35:46

being grew by fifteen of a thing that

35:48

that i think as an online business that

35:50

i get so tired from as the that

35:52

the registration side over sake of doing groups

35:54

when certain groups read says inside his part

35:56

of air and as see how to do

35:58

it him in the apprehend to say

36:00

this in the podcast, I'm like, just

36:03

come to the group, it's so fucking

36:05

effective. People just knew it. I

36:08

don't mind the marketing to a certain

36:10

point, but that feeling

36:12

like, I don't know, it's

36:14

like that, it feels

36:16

like I'm constantly having to hustle to fill

36:18

the groups, and that's the thing that makes

36:20

me feel exhausted. And that's the thing, I'm

36:22

like, oh, okay, how do I make this

36:24

easier? I don't know. It's a really, really

36:26

good business model, and it's so helpful. I

36:28

know for me, even the last

36:31

podcast you posted is just you talking

36:33

about the groups, and at

36:35

least on the audience

36:37

side of things, it's so invigorating and inspiring,

36:39

I think, oh, I could join that group,

36:41

and oh, maybe, so it's really

36:43

valuable what you're doing. But yeah, for you

36:45

on your end, it's probably more like a,

36:48

I don't know, if I can come up with an analogy

36:50

on the spot, but popped in my head with a parent

36:52

like, oh yeah, I need

36:54

to do this again for my kids, and they

36:56

love it. But yeah, this

36:58

is my, I don't know how many times you've been through, how

37:01

many years? Yeah, so

37:03

10 years, 35 seasons now, going into,

37:05

so we've had, we're gearing,

37:08

well, I think by the end of this one, we'll be

37:11

near 1200, we've gone through our

37:13

program. And it's amazing, incredible

37:15

work, and when I first

37:17

started this work, I was like, so

37:20

I don't know when this will happen, but I managed to

37:22

probably get bored of doing this at some point. Just

37:25

knowing how I am, always the analogy,

37:28

and I'm not bored of

37:30

the work itself, the client

37:32

facing work, the leading groups,

37:34

doing those things, doing

37:36

the podcast, I love that work.

37:39

It's sort of like all the work that it takes

37:41

sometimes to be able to do the

37:43

work is where I'm like, okay,

37:46

more marketing. Well, I so resonate with

37:48

that. So when I'm with a client,

37:50

or right now, talking with you, or

37:53

when I show up for the group sessions that I do,

37:56

I don't get bored

37:58

of that. I don't get, And

38:01

I'm in a good place, I did on

38:03

internship, it was too much and there's too

38:06

many therapy clients, too many days, too much

38:08

stress with that, but it's been several

38:11

years. But yeah, it's

38:13

all those things outside of that, the

38:15

marketing, the paperwork, the

38:18

payroll, there's just

38:20

so many things that it gets harder and

38:22

harder and harder. Well,

38:25

I am definitely grateful for the

38:27

session that I attended with you

38:30

and getting to do that with

38:33

a couple members of my team. Because right after we

38:35

had spoken by marketing

38:38

person and a couple weeks from this recording,

38:40

so I think I'm now about 40 days

38:42

away from being in Mexico, I'm going for

38:44

a week to go see

38:46

the band Fish, the second time I'm

38:48

going to see them, they did this

38:50

four night run, it's all inclusive resort.

38:52

I mean, it's officially my very favorite

38:54

band, seeing live music is my happiest day.

38:56

So this is like my dream come true and

38:58

I get to do it again. And

39:01

she says to me, I know you're taking

39:04

this week off in February, what

39:06

if you also took the week before

39:08

and the week after off? And

39:11

one of my goals last year was actually

39:13

to take the fall season off of coaching

39:16

completely. And just the way

39:18

the economy was, it wasn't in the

39:20

cards. And

39:22

so it's like the beginning of the year,

39:24

I was sort of anticipating this sort of

39:26

taking a little bit of a sabbatical and then

39:29

not kind of coming through fruition. So

39:31

when she suggested this, what if I took a

39:33

week break? I

39:36

can't even explain how just

39:38

that suggestion made

39:40

me feel 50 pounds lighter.

39:43

And I was like, oh, that actually seems

39:45

doable. So at first, I was taking my

39:47

team and so I have coverage for my

39:50

groups and all that. And

39:52

it's interesting too, because when I

39:54

was doing the marketing for

39:56

the season, I was talking to my team about

39:58

what if I just... you know, that

40:00

this is what I'm doing. And they're like,

40:02

well, they're not really sure if that's gonna

40:04

be the best approach to, you know. I'm

40:06

like, but you know what?

40:08

Like, it's all the things that I

40:11

am, I think transparent is one

40:13

of the key things that I am. So it's

40:15

like, yes, I love

40:17

the work that I'm doing and

40:19

we're in 2024 now. So

40:22

over the last say four years, that

40:25

was a pandemic. I got divorced and

40:28

there was a time not that long but before that

40:30

I was actually running three groups at a time. I've,

40:33

you know, now I've only do one at a time now. So

40:36

like, there's a whole lot of things that I've

40:38

just sort of added up. And,

40:40

and I guess

40:44

brought me to where I'm at right now where it's taking

40:47

that break is, to me I

40:49

feel, is so essential

40:51

for the longevity of what I'm

40:53

doing. Well,

40:55

just as you said that and you mentioned,

40:58

yeah, going through a divorce,

41:00

running three groups and

41:02

it sounds like I just feel that in

41:04

my gut. It's pain

41:06

that I'm feeling. And I mean, of

41:08

course, pain in a lot of ways, not

41:11

just burnout pain there, but, and

41:13

it sounds like way overdue,

41:15

it's three weeks

41:17

off and trying to figure

41:19

out some ways to really

41:21

heal. That's

41:24

what burnout recovery is. I

41:27

mean, that you take the time off, you don't have

41:29

enough time that you need. And when people are really

41:31

in the throes of burnout, it's, you know, yeah, I

41:33

hear you say that I was like, Oh,

41:36

shit. Yeah,

41:39

nobody wants to hear that. And it's not

41:42

realistic. And so there's that,

41:44

but yeah, it's taking the

41:46

stress away and really having that

41:48

break and giving yourself enough

41:51

time to heal and recover. And

41:54

it does take time and there's

41:56

lots of things to do. And yeah, the connections

41:58

with people, the. the sex,

42:00

the exercise, you know, all those types of

42:02

things are really, really helpful.

42:05

But if it's a chronic tendonitis,

42:07

stress fracture, injury that we're dealing with,

42:10

you need a big, big break. Well,

42:13

we have time for a quick small break right now.

42:18

When we come back, we can come up with

42:20

a talk about some strategies. When you do have

42:23

some time off to really like, how

42:25

do we maximize the sort

42:27

of restorative nature of taking some time off?

42:30

So we will do that when we come

42:32

back. All

42:37

right. We are back with Nate

42:39

Page. All right. So I got

42:41

this, uh, this vacation coming up, uh, right in

42:43

the middle of that vacation, I'm going to be

42:45

in a, in Mexico, seeing my

42:47

favorite band before the week before I

42:49

go and the week after I go, what

42:52

would be some of the things that you suggest?

42:55

And, and this is not just for me. I'm

42:57

also for listeners who were like, okay, I have

42:59

this week off. Like, cause I know for myself,

43:01

I've had times where I've had a little bit

43:03

of time off and I flounder cause I don't

43:06

have the structure of what to do. Right. Which

43:09

is also stressful. Yes. And especially for someone

43:11

like you, it sounds like you really do

43:13

thrive with the work, work, work, go, go,

43:15

go, do, do, do. Yeah.

43:20

Yeah. I do. So

43:23

what's the, but how do we, how

43:25

do we really maximize the recharge effect

43:27

of taking time off? Well,

43:30

so some thoughts I have is, so

43:32

I don't necessarily know ways

43:34

to speed up recovery. Like,

43:37

and so I do think even though that's a soul

43:40

injury, but it's not necessarily

43:42

physical, but it is physical. It

43:44

actually really is physical. Um, but

43:47

there is that kind of, the

43:49

body heals itself, your mind, your psyche,

43:51

it heals itself. So I think

43:53

that's another kind of bit of

43:55

a downer statement. People

43:57

don't want that. Like, Oh, I'd love what's the. to

44:00

hack the way to supercharge

44:02

in three weeks. Yeah,

44:05

just so listeners know, so I have

44:07

kind of this big grin on my

44:09

face right now because basically

44:12

my last two therapists have in

44:15

different words, have basically said to me,

44:18

Eric, slow the fuck down.

44:21

And it has to do with the

44:23

work in therapy, right? I wanna

44:26

jump in, right now I'm in month six in

44:30

EMDR therapy working on diagnosing

44:32

complex PTSD. And

44:34

the first, I think it was the second

44:37

session that I had with this

44:39

therapist and it was my first EMDR session. I'm

44:41

just like, yeah, all this pre-work we need

44:43

to do in the EMDR, it's like, let's

44:45

just resource, let's just get into it, come

44:47

on, come on, let's get into it, I'm

44:50

tired of feeling this way. And

44:52

she's like, well, I don't think we

44:54

should do that, but okay, so

44:57

at the end of that session and

44:59

the beginning of the next session, so yeah, what

45:01

do you think about the slowing down approach? Mike, yeah,

45:03

that's a really good idea, I should have listened to

45:05

you. It was too much

45:07

too fast. And so hearing you say, you

45:10

can't really speed up recovery, I'm like, damn

45:12

it, scenes, patterns.

45:14

Yeah, ugh, that's

45:17

rough. And, but

45:20

yeah, if you go to a doctor and you

45:22

have a stress fracture and they say, oh, it's

45:24

six months in the boot or whatever, or six

45:26

weeks in the boot, I

45:29

mean, yeah, you can eat better, the nutrition helps

45:31

and you gotta reduce your stress.

45:34

And yeah, and hearing you, so they

45:36

mentioned the complex PTSD, and so yeah,

45:39

there's real stress there from that, that probably

45:41

for you, it's, I don't

45:43

know, the nightmares, the emotional flooding, the

45:46

avoiding stimuli, all these things.

45:49

And the research that I was doing the

45:51

other week, because I do a lot of

45:53

ADHD assessments with adults trying to help them

45:55

understand, is this ADHD or anxiety, depression, PTSD,

45:57

or is it both? And there is. at

46:00

least what I'm remembering was folks with

46:02

ADHD are eight times as likely

46:04

in that research study to develop

46:07

PTSD. Not surprising to

46:09

me at all. Yeah. So

46:11

there's just that added stress that you're

46:13

dealing with that's internalized. Of course, there's

46:16

the real external

46:18

traumas that created that. And if

46:20

it's complex, probably several, multiple

46:22

ones. But then it

46:25

becomes internalized. So yeah, we're

46:27

not just talking about burnout.

46:30

And so yeah, so with your three weeks

46:32

off, I'd follow your gut. I'd

46:34

be very, very, very kind to yourself. Yeah,

46:37

lots of love, compassion. The only thing

46:39

that I'm really aware of in the

46:42

literature that is really inversely correlated with

46:44

burnout is compassion.

46:47

So not empathy. I mean, this is kind of

46:49

an interesting thing. So empathy toward

46:51

yourself or towards others, but the compassion. So

46:53

those feelings of love, probably

46:56

the connection that Emily's talking about in her book.

46:59

And so really treating yourself as kindly as

47:01

you can. Lots of love. And of course

47:03

you're burned out. And of course this and

47:05

that. And that's okay. And you're okay. And

47:07

then other things that I think are helpful is what

47:10

does help you feel alive and what

47:12

helps you thrive. What's kind of the opposite of

47:15

the burnout. And

47:17

it sounds like you are doing that. With

47:19

going to the fish concerts and. It

47:22

makes me think that I need

47:24

to make a note to see if there's a way they can rent

47:27

a motorcycle in Mexico.

47:29

Because that's what makes me feel

47:31

alive. I'm like, right. My motorcycle, playing

47:33

pickleball, playing music. I mean, those are

47:35

the things that make me feel alive.

47:37

And I have been very intentionally trying

47:39

to add more and more of those

47:41

things in my life.

47:44

And part of it too, I'm

47:46

very sort of consciously trying to also work

47:48

a lot less. Which

47:50

I do feel is helping. I do feel

47:53

it has been preventing new scars from forming.

47:55

Because you know, like a lot of people

47:57

with ADHD who are also business owners. In

48:00

the start of my business, I would do the

48:02

$80 to $100 work week regularly. Yeah.

48:05

And it's like, as the way our culture is, there's this

48:07

tendency to sort of wear that as a badge of honor.

48:11

And it's so perverse

48:13

and so unhealthy.

48:17

And now I'm working maybe

48:19

about 30 hours a week and I feel

48:21

it's way more sustainable based on where I

48:23

was. With

48:26

some fluctuations here and there, but

48:28

yeah, the what makes you feel alive, it's

48:31

a question that we actually ask our coaching group members

48:33

when we're doing our yearly planning. Like

48:35

what makes you feel alive? Right?

48:38

Because it's like, it's not just about getting the cold

48:40

done. It's like what? Because that's not

48:42

what life is. It's like what really makes

48:44

you energize? What would we do

48:46

when it doesn't matter how much

48:48

time is passing because we love what we're doing? Mm-hmm.

48:51

Yeah. It's

48:54

so funny too when it's like all these things

48:56

that we forget and yet we know to do.

48:59

Right. But yeah, it's

49:01

not built into our systems. And

49:03

especially our culture here in the

49:05

US where productivity equals your worth.

49:09

So you're facing all the stress

49:11

of being counter-cultural to go

49:13

down to 30 hours a week. Which hearing

49:15

that was like, oh, good work. And

49:18

yeah, that is sustainable hopefully in the

49:20

80 to 100. Yeah, it's

49:23

needed sometimes for short term,

49:25

but not sustainable. Not

49:28

exactly. Exactly. We

49:30

are running out of time here. Well,

49:33

maybe just share some final thoughts

49:35

and then how can people reach

49:37

you and sort of leave

49:40

listeners with that? Yeah. So

49:42

I mean, one thing I think is really helpful

49:44

is to get as many people involved as you

49:46

can in your burnout recovery or people that really

49:48

will support you. And so I find

49:51

myself doing that more and more with therapy clients. Like

49:53

if we can, let's connect with your

49:56

boss, your employer, your colleagues,

49:59

yeah, your spouse. your family, your children, your

50:01

friends, because we are needing to make big

50:03

changes if we can

50:06

and change the structure, change the context and

50:08

as many people as we can get that

50:10

are in your corner. And the analogy that

50:12

I always go back to that so often

50:14

it feels like I'm an athletic trainer working

50:17

with an athlete who's injured but nobody else

50:19

really knows it or wants to know it.

50:21

So the coaches, the teammates, the fans, the

50:23

parents, they're like, no, keep playing, keep going.

50:25

It's really important. But when

50:27

the coaches, the fans, everyone

50:30

figures out like, oh, you're injured,

50:32

you have a stress fracture or pulled hamstring

50:34

or whatever metaphor you want to use, then

50:36

it's like, oh, no, no, no. Yeah. Don't

50:39

go to practice. Let's recover. Let's help you.

50:41

So it changes the whole game. The way

50:43

you're talking about things is you're doing that

50:45

and the people that you're surrounding yourself with

50:48

that care about you that are also, I

50:51

think, your coworkers. They're

50:53

saying, nope, let's take the week before and

50:56

the week after off. And

50:58

when that happened, you just felt it like, oh,

51:00

yeah, that is right. I wouldn't have probably done

51:02

that myself, but I have this support

51:04

team here. Because it did

51:06

kind of feel this like, oh, wait, I was maybe having

51:09

this all or nothing thinking. It's either I take a whole

51:11

season off of coaching or nothing.

51:13

It's like, oh, wait, there's this middle ground.

51:15

I can do that middle ground. Yeah.

51:18

A really good experiment. And we'll see. Yeah,

51:20

maybe that was enough or maybe you want

51:22

four weeks next time. And

51:25

what you said there too about experimentation,

51:27

I mean, that's life, right? Like

51:29

we had to embrace those experiments. Like we don't know

51:31

what's going to work or not going to work. We

51:34

don't know what we're going to love or not love. We

51:36

only know by experimenting. Exactly.

51:38

And there was a woman in the presentation that we

51:40

had that talked about the cycles of burnout and going

51:42

through it many times. And I think that's a really

51:44

helpful thing. It'd be like, well, how do I level

51:46

up, get better this time, constantly be

51:49

improving and you're done

51:52

so much and you're trying to figure out what's

51:54

the next way to level up with my burnout

51:57

recovery and for people wanting to connect

51:59

with. Is that where you were going? That's

52:02

exactly where I was going. Reach out to me. Google

52:04

my name, Nate Page. I run a website,

52:07

grouptherapycentral.com, so you can connect with me through

52:09

there. I love doing presentations

52:11

on burnout. I've gone into a lot of

52:13

organizations, but I do a lot of individual

52:16

therapy work. I am probably going to be

52:18

licensed in 36, 37 states with the way

52:20

that psychologists can do things through. But I'd

52:22

love to be part of any projects or

52:25

things people are doing. And so don't hesitate

52:27

to reach out to me. Yeah,

52:29

I'd like to play with this and I'll say

52:31

no if I'm not in a place to

52:33

say yes. If I'm full at

52:35

the buffet right now. But

52:38

right now I'm more like, no, I'll play with

52:40

anyone. I'll play with you, Eric, and be on

52:42

your podcast. So yeah, don't hesitate to

52:44

reach out. Well, thank you so much. This

52:46

was a great conversation and I appreciate the work that you

52:48

were doing. I think it is really,

52:50

really important work that people are hearing.

52:53

So we will put a link to where

52:55

people can reach you in the show

52:57

notes of this episode that is available

52:59

on your podcast app or on our

53:02

website. Nate Page, thank you so much.

53:04

Thank you. Absolute pleasure. And

53:07

that's all for this week. A big thanks

53:09

to Dr. Nate Page for taking the time

53:11

to talk with me for this episode. And

53:13

thank you for making it to the end

53:15

of this episode. If

53:18

you want show notes and resources

53:20

mentioned in today's show, head over

53:22

to the website, adhdrewired.com. Do

53:25

you have thoughts about burnout? Want to

53:27

start a discussion? Apply to become part

53:29

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And if you sign up at $25

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53:54

if you are looking for an ADHD-friendly co-working space to

53:56

help you keep on task at the top of your

53:58

to-do list, why not join me? check out

54:00

our ADHD-friendly body doubling community at

54:03

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54:06

adultstudyhall.com. We currently have 11 facilitated

54:08

sessions each week, and our 24-7

54:10

quiet co-working room is always open.

54:12

Oh, and we're trying something new.

54:14

Each week, I'm getting together with

54:16

fellow coaches, Kristen and Mark, and

54:18

Brian Kettner, for our coaches round

54:21

table. We are aiming to keep

54:23

those conversations between 15 to 20

54:25

minutes, and if you wanna check

54:27

those out, we'll have our most

54:29

recent episodes that we've streamed on

54:31

YouTube linked in the show notes. Otherwise,

54:33

you can find it all at the

54:36

website, from our coaching groups to our

54:38

Facebook community, adult study hall, and more,

54:41

at adhdrewired.com. Thanks

54:44

again to Dr. Nate Page for

54:46

joining me on the podcast today.

54:49

Take care of yourselves, and

54:51

we'll see y'all next week.