0:00

If you guys clicked on this, you already know what the title is,

0:02

that this is an episode of by diversity and inclusion in

0:04

the tech industry. So our guest

0:06

is someone we've already had on her name is Courtney

0:08

Greer. And she talked to us previously

0:10

about everything she's learned as a project manager

0:13

and a scrum leader at Microsoft. But

0:15

in addition to that, she's also a. Black

0:17

LGBTQ women in the tech industry.

0:19

She's also a really good friend of mine. So I've had a lot of conversations

0:22

with her about how

0:25

the industry can do better. And, you know,

0:27

we just felt like this is something that we want everyone to.

0:29

Hear what she has to say and hear other ways

0:31

that they can be allies and help.

0:33

The world be more fair, at least in their pocket

0:36

of the world and the tech industry. So this

0:38

episode is gonna be a bit different, but I think

0:40

it's just going to be just as interesting. And

0:42

I think it's going to be just as insightful.

0:44

Courtney has so much to say about this topic, so

0:47

let's get into it. So,

0:59

Courtney, thank you for coming back our first

1:01

recurrent. Yeah. I'm so excited

1:04

and proud to be reoccurring.

1:07

Yeah, you should be. Your first episode is really good and did

1:09

a big dump. It's our number one so far.

1:11

And these people liked their voice, which I never know.

1:13

You, you don't like your own voice. So. So

1:18

just to start with, you know over the

1:20

past year, many Americans have been awakened

1:23

to the ways that people of color and especially

1:25

black people are discriminated against not given

1:27

equal opportunities or not given voices

1:29

in many institutions in this country. Lots

1:31

of industries have recognized this and trying to make

1:33

improvements. And you have a firsthand

1:36

insight that the salt that I will never

1:38

have as you're a black LGBTQ woman

1:40

in tech. So do you feel like the tech industry

1:43

has the same issue that so many other industries

1:45

in America do. I would

1:47

say yes. And I would actually say

1:49

like Apple. Yes. Which is like

1:52

hard to hear. It's an uncomfortable, well,

1:54

truth where it is an industry

1:56

that like address it a very long time

1:58

ago. They were saying like, Hey, there is a big

2:00

gap. Like even through college, I

2:02

was understanding that people are saying, no,

2:04

we need to focus on getting minority students

2:07

involved in STEM technologies. But,

2:09

but the sad reality is, is that

2:12

it's like a really deep history.

2:14

And unfortunately with it's so rooted

2:17

and it's so such

2:19

a long history to unpack. It gets

2:21

harder when I'm talking about it's just within

2:23

tech. Like even though we're making

2:25

this big push and we're trying to do changes, like

2:27

the majority of people that are involved

2:29

in tech and involved in senior positions

2:32

are white men or kind of Asian

2:34

men in general, like in a lot of other tech forms.

2:37

So because that is still there and it's

2:39

rooted there. There's like a, a

2:41

smaller, of course, population of people,

2:43

of minority people that are coming into tech.

2:45

And people always say like, Oh, there's just not enough people

2:47

to hire. That's not the case. Like what

2:50

are we doing systematically to keep people

2:52

there and their jobs and looking at like

2:54

black retention inside of tech.

2:56

That's a problem that still is still

2:58

an issue today. And making people feel comfortable.

3:01

Inside a tech if there are a person of

3:03

color or a woman, it's still like problems

3:06

that we see in the media still where we hear

3:08

about harassment, sexual harassment in the workplace,

3:10

and people not actually facing real consequences

3:13

against it, and we still are seeing

3:15

those issues. And so it's a really big

3:17

problem. Yes. And although we're making

3:19

a lot of progress and this is an industry that's

3:21

actually addressing it. Putting out data

3:24

points to show what they're doing. The numbers

3:26

are still low and it's still

3:28

like, it's something that we have to talk about and

3:30

have to be uncomfortable around and keep kind

3:32

of making estate mistakes. It keeps

3:34

getting effort. And so I say capital, yes. Because

3:37

like, although we're, we're going

3:39

towards the right thing, we're still have a lot of setbacks

3:41

and we're still making a lot of like sideway

3:43

paths that we just don't want to stop

3:45

that momentum. And so we're like on a

3:47

route, but it's still the reality

3:50

is, is that it's a very male. White

3:52

dominated field. And we're still seeing low

3:54

numbers of people are getting invested into

3:56

it at an early age, which

3:58

means it's gonna, that problem is still going to keep

4:01

repeating. Some people characterize

4:03

this as just a pipeline problem

4:05

where it's, there's a not, not enough women

4:07

or people of color applying to jobs

4:10

and they don't touch on retention. Can

4:12

you explain the retention issue? Yeah.

4:15

And it goes into this idea of like,

4:17

So they say, okay, yeah, we hired, like

4:19

we just hired a hundred, you know, African-American

4:22

people to the job. Cool.

4:25

You brought them in. And then when you're talking

4:27

about like, are you promoting them? Are

4:29

you giving them equal pay? Are

4:31

you making them feel like unique individuals?

4:33

Not saying like, we hired them in and then, you

4:35

know, we're training them to act like the us

4:38

we're training them to be like us. We're not addressing

4:40

kind of their needs as individuals.

4:42

We're just putting them at a seat to work. We're not inviting

4:45

them to the main conversations. I know

4:47

you had like back channel conversations,

4:49

meeting, like you just catch up with a buddy during

4:51

lunch, and you're talking about real ideas

4:53

and real movements inside of your industry and you're leaving

4:55

out people. They just look different from you.

4:58

So it was actually like, It behaviors

5:00

that are inside of the work environment. Aren't

5:02

solved just by hiring a bunch of people in

5:05

because the minority group isn't going to come in

5:07

and just be like, Oh, we're changing everything we're doing

5:09

this. No, usually they're going to often take

5:12

the backseat just because they feel like imposters

5:14

when they first walk in the door. And there's

5:16

Nick kind of afraid of retaliation

5:18

afraid of being the first person to speak

5:20

up because they're going to get a bunch of eyes

5:23

that look back to them that either like ask them for a

5:25

ton of advice and overwhelm them or.

5:28

Don't want anything to do with that conversation

5:30

feel it's uncomfortable and then don't want them near

5:32

that many more. And so it's not enough

5:34

to just hire a bunch of people in, it's just changing

5:36

the behaviors of the people around

5:38

and making them feel as included as

5:41

everyone else in a very unique and authentic

5:43

way. Like just being themselves and

5:45

not, there's like a meme going around, like

5:47

when I was first hiring that like a lot of black people use

5:49

or they like, they go to work and as soon

5:51

as they leave work, they shed their skin and they

5:53

become their real self. Like that adds

5:56

so much pressure to a person. If they have to

5:58

change their identity, to

6:00

walk into the office, watch how they say,

6:03

like make sure their dialect. Matches their

6:05

counterparts and had so much pressure

6:07

that there can't even like, think of their job and

6:09

do their job accurately. It's like

6:11

so much more stress and so much more tax

6:13

on a person than just showing up as

6:15

you are. And so the more that a work

6:17

environment can allow people to show up as they

6:20

are and encourage that behavior, it

6:22

leads to better retention. And also

6:24

just like, it leads to just better innovation,

6:26

which has been proven with like the accurate

6:29

and the right hiring of minority

6:31

people into offices. And

6:33

actually wanted to get your take on this

6:35

recent trend. I think that we're seeing in tech and

6:37

specifically in startups. So

6:40

I'm sure you guys heard about what's happened

6:42

with Coinbase. So I think like a few months ago

6:44

Coinbase came out, I guess there's like a few months

6:46

before they IPO it. Obviously they

6:48

came out with this all-encompassing.

6:51

Internal policy that employees could

6:53

not touch on politics religion.

6:55

And there is a certain number of topics that they straight

6:58

up just outlawed. And they were like, there's really no

7:00

room for conversation here. This is

7:02

a business organization. We're here to conduct

7:04

business and we're here to create this great product, et cetera.

7:07

They had a lot of blow back. I think.

7:09

Unanimously Silicon Valley's like, I don't want

7:11

to work at Coinbase. Coinbase is going to see a

7:13

lot of turnover. Employees are going to leave to, to

7:16

a company. That's going to give them the opportunities, opportunity

7:18

to at least talk about politics. And I

7:20

guess, whatever it is that they really care

7:23

about. But then you fast forward three months.

7:25

Coinbase has a spectacular IPO and

7:27

all that criticism sort of went out the door. But

7:30

then this last month we saw base

7:32

camp, which is a much smaller company. They're just 60

7:35

employees. And they implemented the exact

7:37

same policy that Coinbase did at

7:40

the end of the week. They had lost 33 people.

7:43

They all, they all the mass quit. And

7:45

I thought that was really fascinating I guess my question is how,

7:48

what's the difference here? What is the right thing to

7:50

do. If you are conducting a business, our

7:52

employees expect to come in every day and

7:55

do what is expected of them as given to the

7:57

details of their job. Or

7:59

are they allowed this room to also talk to their

8:01

coworkers about things outside of the scope of their work?

8:04

Yeah. And it's been said for a while

8:06

about like, don't bring up politics at work,

8:09

don't bring up the kind of your sexual

8:11

orientation at work. Don't do this. And

8:13

like, if you think back to like, why not?

8:15

It's so weird, like it's certain topics,

8:18

but like, I don't know if the Pope made a weird

8:20

announcement, like really odd

8:22

announcement, like. That people

8:24

wouldn't want it to talk about. They really, they probably would.

8:26

They bring it to work. If the president

8:28

kind of did some type of weird thing, we did something

8:31

where they do bring it into work. It's usually what

8:33

they're talking about. When they say like, don't bring

8:35

politics, it's usually topics that they're

8:37

uncomfortable with or topics that are

8:39

kind of going to shake the foundation or shake

8:41

anything that's going to be happening until in the

8:43

work is going to make leadership, not know

8:46

how to react. Right. They're usually

8:48

not saying don't talk about like that big

8:50

story that came out in the times

8:52

today. They're usually talking about like,

8:54

let's not bring this heavy news into here

8:56

because it's going to burden all of us. It's kind of, it's

8:59

going to make that white guilt feeling kind

9:01

of weigh us all down today. And

9:03

so. We're seeing this trend where a lot

9:06

of young people, and I feel like we've seen

9:08

some of the numbers, a lot of young people like want their

9:10

company to take a stance on things. And

9:12

they actually want people to start talking

9:14

about this at work. I think a lot of stories

9:16

that have come up or just like. When I was graduating

9:19

college and was in, I was in college,

9:21

that's when the Trayvon Martin was first

9:24

shot and, and that story

9:26

hit really hard for a lot of people.

9:28

Like Trayvon Martin looked like my younger brother,

9:30

so to like actually have that realization

9:33

and start to thinking, talk about that. It's very

9:35

hard to then just go to school and be like,

9:37

okay, I'm smiling. No, one's talking about

9:39

this because it is at the back of my mind. And as

9:41

soon as I leave. On my Facebook

9:43

feed and my Instagram and Twitter.

9:46

That's all I see. And so to not

9:48

have a place to go and talk about that. I

9:50

can go talk to a colleague and just put on a bright

9:53

face like that, actually, that does a lot

9:55

for your mental health and to try to keep a

9:57

smile on and not break down

9:59

at work is a lot. And so not allowing

10:01

your employees to have that space. It

10:03

leads to a lot of burnout and leads to like a lot

10:05

of emotional burnout of your employees.

10:08

And it's comes to that conversation of more of like,

10:10

if you can have people show up well, like

10:13

mentally well show up. Full

10:16

as a human being and allow them space to kind

10:18

of grieve or process until

10:20

they are full and a work environment.

10:22

Like you get happy employees that are actually

10:25

like contributing to the company culture

10:27

in a much productive, much more productive way.

10:30

And so we're seeing a trend that I feel like

10:32

in the new hiring and recruiting phase,

10:34

we're going to have to face that a lot of the old

10:36

ways are going to have to go away around that conversation.

10:38

Cause employees actually. Like young employees want

10:41

people, their company to take a stance now,

10:43

like they will leave if they don't agree

10:45

with the policy. And I know that, you

10:47

know, they want to take a bipartisan view. They don't want to

10:49

lean left or right when it comes to politics.

10:52

But a lot of young employees are actually, like

10:54

they say, I will work for a company

10:56

that follows my models and my views,

10:58

and I will follow that company. If, if that

11:00

counts, so it's a risky play. A lot of people

11:03

are saying like, Oh, if we do that, we'll lose this,

11:05

this amount of company. I even say, like, just opening

11:07

up those conversations and having them is

11:09

going to lead to better retention in the workplace. And

11:11

it's going to lead to more productive, like. Productive

11:16

conversations that are going to change the behaviors

11:18

in your workplace that we talked about, you know,

11:20

at the beginning of the call the other thing

11:23

is You know, employees, especially

11:25

young people should realize how desperately

11:27

companies need them, you know? Yeah.

11:30

Yeah. We are not a throw away talent. Like

11:33

just kind of getting your degree and studying

11:35

something for four years. Isn't something that,

11:37

you know, employees are taking lightly. And

11:40

especially now that the numbers and metrics

11:42

are coming out and people are investing in quarterly,

11:45

like minority talent. Leads to

11:48

innovation. Now, people are saying that that

11:50

is a direct thing. If you can have more people

11:52

and more diverse perspectives and innovation

11:54

meeting, and I think takes meeting, they're bringing

11:57

their individual problems,

11:59

problem statements, and solutions

12:01

to the table that if you were just in this

12:03

bubble, you would not know. And be able to

12:05

solve with before. So it's kind of

12:07

being able to even like go into new markets

12:10

and solve issues that people

12:12

care about that are coming to the table. And

12:14

it's not even just like putting new products out

12:16

there and making more money. It's actually making it, making

12:19

changes in that, in their culture

12:21

and their communities that they want to see

12:23

made. And creating products that are going

12:25

to just better and uplift our community as

12:27

a whole. And it just starts with bringing the right

12:29

people and bringing different people to the table for

12:32

those conversations as well. And

12:34

so we're seeing that direct correlation and

12:36

the companies want that. They're like, yes, we have to

12:38

have those people there. We have the half of them. We

12:40

have to have them happy and healthy, and we

12:42

have to give them space to have those

12:44

conversations so that we can of, we can not

12:47

just help our bottom line, but we can

12:49

as like Microsoft, they say, we want to help. We want

12:51

to help. We want to help every organization

12:53

and every person achieve more. So

12:55

every, if we, if we can't talk to every person,

12:57

if we can't understand what every person's problem is

12:59

authentically and uniquely, you know,

13:02

how are we going to help? It's going to be a blind

13:04

effort to go in and help if we can't do it, I've

13:07

been in a lot of product development meetings. Where

13:09

it was just so obvious that

13:11

we were getting levels of innovation. That would have been impossible

13:14

if we didn't have people from different countries,

13:16

people from different hometowns, people from different

13:18

backgrounds, all contributing their viewpoint

13:21

and how we should develop this product. So

13:24

scale that up and put that across

13:26

corporate America. How much, how

13:28

many orders of magnitude of innovation are

13:30

we missing out on? Are we leaving on

13:32

the table? Yeah, a hundred percent.

13:35

I feel like we've also seen the reverse

13:37

where the same people aren't there and

13:39

they miss certain things. It's not even in tech.

13:42

I think the latest, like my favorite

13:44

thing or not favorite, it was just kind of the funny

13:46

thing of like, I think Gucci,

13:48

like they put out a product that was

13:51

a new sweater and it obviously like had

13:53

black face on it. And if you were just like,

13:55

if they just had like one black person at that meeting,

13:57

and it's not even just that they could have had one

13:59

black person at the meeting, but a person who

14:02

felt. I'm empowered at

14:04

work to speak up because it could be one

14:06

person who acts as that representative,

14:08

but it's so like fearful of

14:10

being retaliated against that. If they say something,

14:13

they just stay quiet too. But just like

14:15

one person would have said, Hey, this is not a good idea.

14:18

And stopped a huge, huge

14:21

PR nightmare for them. And we see

14:23

that a lot in 3d different industries. And it's a

14:25

little more harmful sometimes in technology

14:27

when we're starting to build products

14:29

that influenced the world. Like a lot of baseball

14:31

stadiums use facial recognition

14:33

to like, if they ban someone,

14:36

they want to be able to scan and see like, Oh,

14:38

that person's coming in. Well, if you don't train

14:40

your algorithm to have more black faces

14:42

to have more Asian faces, you're

14:44

kind of starting to blend and it might actually

14:47

target someone who

14:49

isn't the person you are. And it might do

14:51

that multiple times and cause it very dangerous

14:53

situations. Like if. For say the cop

14:56

is called because they don't know. There's

14:58

trying to explain themselves that they're not it. Like,

15:00

that's just something so small that you think like,

15:03

Oh, if a person of color was there and

15:05

could offer an insight into, Hey, we

15:07

need to train more because our features

15:09

like skin color is, is not

15:11

the only feature we need to train for. You're

15:14

able to eliminate that and that's just code bias

15:16

and you can see that in different industries as well.

15:20

Yeah, I also, I honestly just wanted to highlight,

15:22

I think, two really interesting points that you've made earlier

15:24

you suggested that maybe having

15:27

a organization that's publicly leaning

15:29

either right or left could actually

15:32

be a competitive advantage when it comes to recruiting,

15:34

which I think is really fascinating. I'm sure. At

15:36

the Google level, or like at the Facebook level or Microsoft

15:38

level, They could really not be

15:40

leaning either. So just because they're, you know, international organizations

15:43

and whatnot, but if you're like a hundred person organization,

15:45

I could see that, that, that, that could make sense from

15:48

a hiring perspective. And the other thing

15:50

I want to pick up, you effectively described

15:52

what covering is earlier, which is. Showing

15:55

up to work and not being able to you know, share

15:57

some sort of experience that you had or really

15:59

be your true self. Could you describe

16:01

what covering is? Yeah. So

16:03

covering, like you just stated so

16:06

wonderfully, there is kind of when you cover

16:08

up certain parts of your identity so

16:10

that you can feel safe. At work.

16:12

So I am a black woman

16:15

as you know, so an LGBT woman at

16:17

work. And usually I'm just like, Oh, I got

16:19

three bucket's already in the minority

16:21

scale. So I, I definitely

16:23

felt in my first job, like,

16:25

it was kind of this thing. I don't want to be too black. I don't

16:27

want to be too gay or I don't want to be too feminine

16:30

at work. And those are the three things. And the more I

16:32

started to cover, the less I felt

16:34

there at work, the less connection

16:36

I felt with my. Coworkers

16:39

because I really couldn't be authentically myself.

16:41

And I noticed that a lot of my friends were people outside

16:43

of work and they look completely different from my coworkers

16:46

and I felt much more detached

16:48

from work just because I wasn't

16:50

showing up as myself. And so

16:53

covering can be as simple as for women.

16:55

Not talking about their children, not talking

16:57

about their, wants to become mothers because

16:59

they feel like, Oh, they won't be promoted

17:01

or they won't be paid enough because the company

17:04

is going to be like, Oh, she's going to go on

17:06

maternity leave anyway. For an

17:08

LGBT man. It

17:10

might be just not talking about his boyfriend. I've

17:12

had an example where a manager,

17:15

like, just assume that I had a boyfriend

17:17

and was just like, Oh yeah, but your boyfriend,

17:20

you can do this. And although, like, it could

17:22

have not been a malicious statement,

17:24

he's just coming from his own experience. It

17:26

made me cover. It may be just be like, Oh,

17:29

He probably wouldn't be comfortable if I

17:31

did talk about my girlfriend. So I'm just not going to bring

17:33

it up anymore. And that detaches

17:35

me from him, actually knowing more about

17:37

me and understanding more of me as an authentic

17:40

person. And so when we cover at work

17:42

and I kind of touched on intersectionality as well,

17:44

just because I overlap a lot of my identities.

17:47

It's just kind of holding back and identity

17:49

just because you fear either.

17:51

You're just going to be looked at different or

17:53

you're not going to fit in with your peers. And as

17:55

it is showing that the more people cover. The

17:58

more they detach from work and pretension

18:00

is affected as well. Because if you can't show up

18:02

as yourself at a place where you spend

18:04

eight hours a day for five days a week,

18:07

you're just got to feel less happy and less

18:09

fulfilled in that role. And you're going to go somewhere that

18:11

you fit in a little bit more. And unfortunately

18:14

what that causes them is people go

18:16

where they fit in more and they start to go to places

18:18

that are identical. And everyone looks

18:20

the same. And then we come into this problem, diversity

18:23

as well. And it's not possible for a lot of

18:25

people to go to a company where everyone looks

18:27

like themselves. So then where do they fit

18:29

in? Do they switch industries? They go somewhere.

18:31

They just stick where they are and keep their head

18:33

down and not actually try to strive

18:36

for leadership roles is all affected

18:38

in that way. I think, no, I think you bring

18:40

up a great point because for us, and I have

18:42

this conversation all the time, where do

18:44

we draw the line in terms of what

18:47

is politics? Is diversity

18:49

politics or is it diversity? Just

18:51

diversity, something that exists in everyday

18:53

life. Is it just something else? Yeah.

18:55

For some people, some people might say it's politics,

18:57

but other people might say, that's my life, you know?

19:00

Yeah. I'm just trying to live. I'm

19:02

trying to live in like a lot of people will

19:05

tie diversity into like, when you

19:07

take an action or a government action

19:09

out of it. Like a lot of people had a problem back

19:11

in the day with affirmative action, because they're

19:13

like, this is reverse racism, like politics

19:15

and brought in reverse racism. They're taking.

19:18

My job, quote unquote, because

19:20

someone that was a privilege for them to have

19:23

it. And so they kind of linked the two

19:25

just because they feel like it's out of

19:27

their control, which sometimes it's LinkedIn

19:29

to kind of the way that politics is and you have to

19:31

vote for this. Well, yeah, a lot of people are just

19:33

like, no, this is just my life. Like I'm

19:35

trying to be myself at work. I'm trying to make sure

19:37

it's a safe place for me to go at work.

19:40

And then like, I definitely think it's double politics

19:42

sometimes when you talk about like immigrants and people

19:44

that. Like work in the U S that aren't from

19:46

the U S and people that don't speak

19:49

English as their first language, and they're trying to assimilate

19:52

and trying to become someone

19:54

else. And so when they're talking

19:56

about Western politics and they

19:58

have like like a politician has a say

20:00

over whether they get to stay here or not, like,

20:03

it does become like a quote unquote

20:05

political matter, but it's really just for

20:07

a lot of people just about existing. Yeah.

20:09

For some people. I think

20:11

one thing which is very interesting about covering is

20:14

that this is something

20:16

which affects you, even if you're not a

20:18

minority. So I remember

20:20

I in my senior year of call of

20:22

high school, my senior year of high school,

20:25

I took a civics class and

20:28

our teachers said that. Protection

20:31

of minority rights and minority

20:33

beliefs, which is useful to even

20:35

the most selfish person. Even if all you care

20:37

about is yourself, you will have

20:39

some belief that is a minority

20:42

belief. And if that, and

20:44

if the ability to express minority beliefs

20:46

is not protected, everyone

20:48

is hard. Yeah. And we can't grow

20:50

as a society if we can't take in

20:52

new perspectives and we can't allow

20:55

those news perspectives to just. Go

20:57

into people's ear, go and think about it and

20:59

be talked about, and even, you know, celebrated,

21:02

like we will not advance as a society. If

21:04

those things aren't brought to life and there's not a space

21:07

for that to be shown. And like I said,

21:09

work takes up so much time of your day.

21:11

Like not to be able to be yourself authentically.

21:15

In a place where you're supposed to be making a

21:17

wage and making support for your family.

21:19

It's a lot, it's very stressful to start to slip

21:21

away your identity at a place that means so much,

21:24

it has so much impact to you

21:26

and to the economy and everything,

21:28

you know, are

21:30

there ever any examples of

21:32

where the majority population within the group has

21:34

to cover? It's

21:38

not as common, it's just not as common.

21:40

Because usually, you know, once you'd get around people

21:42

that look like you or are

21:45

like, you, you kind of just relax a

21:47

lot more when I'm at home with

21:49

my family or back home family

21:51

reunions and things, and people would just look

21:53

and act the way I do it just feels

21:55

like I am, I'm doing my thing.

21:57

I'm walking around. Hi, auntie, what's up? How

21:59

are you doing? Like, it's very,

22:02

just relaxing and you feel

22:04

calm and at ease in the minute. That

22:06

you walk into an environment that doesn't

22:08

seem like you, when people start talking and

22:10

you can see that they're connecting and you're just

22:12

not making the same references

22:14

or making the same statements, you

22:17

start to just take a back seat by reaction.

22:19

It's like more of an initial thing that happens

22:21

that you really can't even control. And so

22:24

it could totally happen. And a lot of people

22:26

cover just because they look

22:28

passing. And if you've heard that like,

22:32

Gender a transgender man. You

22:34

might not know he's transgender, transgender,

22:37

and so he might pass as a CIS man.

22:39

And so a lot of people might project things onto

22:41

him, or, you know, he might be able

22:43

to like, get the privileges of

22:45

a white man assists white man just

22:47

by existing, but he is covering

22:50

because maybe he won't speak about that just because

22:52

people already have assumed and he

22:54

can't bring his transgender ideas,

22:56

beliefs Stories to

22:58

live and get help with things such as healthcare.

23:01

When it comes to a work environment, he can't raise

23:03

issues because he feels like

23:05

automatically he had to cover just because

23:07

he passes and people have

23:09

those projections onto him. So there's

23:12

a lot of intricacies when it comes to

23:14

covering and how people do it. And a lot

23:16

of people cover in like, just like they're saying, like

23:18

their religion, like to assume everyone

23:20

is a Christian and that they want off for Christmas

23:23

and things like that, which we used to do. Like.

23:26

People, if people will take a backseat and not talk

23:28

about whether they're Buddhist or, or

23:30

a Hindu or, or, you know, they are

23:32

atheist and they just don't want to make a fuss.

23:34

And thus, they can't bring that to the table.

23:36

And people can't learn from you. Like my favorite

23:39

thing is talking to someone who is

23:41

so different for me and just listening

23:43

to them, understanding where they come from,

23:45

because it's just a new story that I haven't

23:47

heard before. And it just brings my perspectives

23:49

into so much of a different view

23:52

and part of allyship. As we started to

23:54

talk about it. It's just really putting yourself into someone's

23:56

shoes and understanding how they

23:59

want to be treated and supported. And

24:01

so if we can do that and just kind of open

24:03

up and allow spaces for people to

24:05

authentically come to the table, like

24:08

you're just learning and growing yourself as

24:10

well. When it comes to even like the most selfish

24:12

person in the world can grow just

24:14

from someone else's viewpoint. One conversation,

24:17

if they all, if everyone's guard is

24:19

down and they're allowed to be their most unique

24:21

self. Okay. Can you expand on allyship?

24:24

Yeah. Yeah. Allyship is just

24:26

a helping hand, simple

24:28

simplest form. A lot of people are talking about

24:30

allyship and work is like now that the conversation

24:32

and we understand what we are as a society,

24:35

we've woken up after a lot of people have woken

24:37

up after in the murder of George Floyd

24:39

last year. A lot of people reached in with like, how

24:42

can I help. How can I help

24:44

proactively there's right. Ways

24:46

to help in these situations and there's wrong

24:48

ways to help. And I want to be there and

24:50

helping allyship is just, like you

24:52

said, as a person who has certain amount

24:54

of privileges offering a hand in

24:56

allowing a space for someone who doesn't

24:58

have these privileges to exist

25:01

and grow inside of a company that

25:03

we're talking about in tech. I think like at

25:05

our company, we describe allyship as someone

25:07

like. Or the way that you can be a

25:09

better ally. It's just first, it's just

25:11

being brave. A lot of people want

25:13

to be. Or wanting to be allies,

25:15

but they want to be careful and they want to toe as

25:18

well. And they're really afraid to make mistakes.

25:20

Allies, aren't afraid to make mistakes.

25:23

A lot of tech companies are wanting to put

25:25

their messaging out there, be on

25:27

top and never want to have another PR

25:29

disaster and byproduct. They play

25:31

safe all the time and they kind of tiptoe around

25:33

issues. And part of the, like, I

25:35

don't know, BB of allyship and beauty of growing

25:38

as a person, it's just making mistakes and having

25:40

people correct you and not making

25:42

a, such a big deal. Just like if you

25:44

use someone or you misuse someone's pronoun

25:47

and then they say, Oh, no you know, he him,

25:49

then they're like, Oh, Oh, I didn't

25:51

know. Okay. Yes. Let

25:53

me know now I know to support you. And now I'm someone

25:56

else comes into me in a conversation and it starts

25:58

talking about you and uses the wrong pronoun.

26:00

Like I will as an ally step in and correct

26:02

them because it's what I'm doing and I'm learning from you in

26:04

the moment. And so. And ally

26:06

is like, is brave. They're courageous.

26:09

They listen and they proactively

26:11

want to help someone who doesn't have the same

26:13

privileges as them. It can be not

26:16

like another example of allyship, which

26:18

we've noticing is like, now that we're in remote work

26:20

before we weren't, we had people that were. Working

26:23

and East coast, but the whole

26:25

office was in the the West coast. And

26:27

so in meetings you have that one person who remote

26:29

that one person always gets talked over. One

26:32

person never really feels included. It's

26:34

all like one way of it's like just

26:36

to have a Proctor next to the computer that

26:39

they can ping. And you can ask questions on behalf

26:41

of them. It's a very small example,

26:43

but it's just saying like, we are going to intentionally

26:45

put some behaviors that I want to practice

26:48

so that you feel included and safe. In the

26:50

environment. And so an ally is always working

26:52

to get there and there's a lot of talk tracks and like how

26:54

to be a good ally because a lot of people would

26:56

just want to go in and play the hero. Without

26:59

checking, right? They wouldn't just go in and

27:01

say, no, you're wrong. Like you hurt

27:03

this person's feelings and you can't

27:06

do that. And you're racist. And this is what

27:08

we have to do without even checking for

27:10

the person who might've been harassed

27:12

or have been the aggressor. And so a

27:14

good ally. Isn't just the person who yells the loudest.

27:16

It's the person that actually puts themselves

27:19

in their shoes, goes and checks on that person

27:21

and says, how can I help? And if you don't

27:23

want to talk about it, that's okay. But how can

27:25

I do the work within myself to help.

27:27

And in better my community, my organization

27:30

in an impactful way. I love that

27:32

example of having the person by the computer

27:35

to make sure that they're listened to because

27:38

I feel like, so to

27:40

me, one of the most, one

27:42

of the most impactful philosophies that I've ever read

27:44

is this concept of Kaizen. So it comes

27:46

from Japanese manufacturing and

27:48

essentially Kaizen is constant

27:51

improvement. If you accumulate

27:53

small 1% improvements

27:55

by every day, by the end of the year, you'll be

27:57

like 10000% better. Something crazy like

28:00

that. And I think this is an example, how

28:02

can you do a Kaizen and allyship? This

28:05

is totally example because we can't expect everyone

28:07

to beat the same bar. When it comes to diversity

28:10

inclusion, a lot of people, this is

28:12

maybe the first conversation openly that

28:14

they're having. And before they had it in their

28:16

head, maybe they wanted to help. Maybe they wanted

28:18

to make these mistakes. We were very afraid bringing

28:20

politics, bringing the conversations

28:23

and afraid of offending people. And now we're saying

28:25

like, we're having this space where we're

28:27

having these conversations where you can

28:29

check your assumptions. By making mistakes

28:31

by asking these questions. And if you allow me to have

28:33

the voice to correct you and you don't get offended,

28:36

like you're not like, Oh, well I'm not racist. You're

28:38

just like, Oh wait, you were hurt by this. What

28:40

happened? Can you, can I, can I learn

28:43

from you? Let me speak. Let me see your perspective

28:45

on things and see how I can change by behavior

28:48

and just want a small change. Like I said,

28:50

I'm just recognizing someone's pronouns.

28:52

You got it wrong. You don't feel like terrible

28:55

guilt about it. You're not going to go follow that person

28:57

and send them roses and go make sure that like

28:59

you pamper them every step of the way. Right? Just like, Oh,

29:02

let me check my assumptions. Let me figure out like internally

29:04

why that happened to me and now I'm going to be better

29:07

going forward. And so that's what we have to

29:09

do. And it's like, It's not a win or

29:11

lose game. Like there's a lot of work that I'm

29:13

doing with diversity and inclusion within myself.

29:15

Like I would not say I'm an expert

29:18

in any way. I'm a voice that has a perspective.

29:20

And then I'm learning from people like

29:22

myself. I'm learning from other women

29:25

I'm learning from other African American women,

29:27

elder, LGBT QIA plus

29:29

people. And that's just part of my mission as a

29:31

human is just to listen to people, get better,

29:33

be courageous and not be afraid to

29:35

make those mistakes. When it comes to just trying

29:37

to be a better person. Right.

29:39

I think you guys both made a great point for why

29:42

a behavior needs to change at the lowest levels

29:44

at the employee level. If we have to switch topics

29:47

and focus a little bit more on what

29:49

can organizations do at the C suite

29:51

level or at the executive level. And I

29:54

think historically we've seen like policies put in place

29:56

or they've created groups or internal

29:58

sort of overseen committees that, you

30:01

know, they, they try to do some things. What do you think

30:03

is the best approach at the C-suite

30:05

level? Yeah. And we've

30:08

seen a lot where we're seeing a lot more CEOs

30:10

step in and say, Hey, this is my stance

30:12

on it. This is how we want to help. And

30:15

it's great. It's nice that we're seeing a

30:17

lot of talk and I think they call it lip

30:19

service when people are just talking a lot

30:21

and we're not seeing actions that actually

30:23

trickle down or we're seeing actions

30:25

be put on the minority group, meaning

30:27

they're doing all the effort, they're doing all the grassroots

30:30

campaigning and Paul Policies that

30:32

are supposed to make a difference when really

30:34

the change comes from both sides. And a lot of it

30:37

is heavy on the C-suite is actually

30:39

around. Like, if you're saying we want to better diversity,

30:42

let's see metrics, let's see some goals

30:44

and let's see a plan to

30:46

get there. Which we see with a lot of other strategies

30:48

when you have a feature rollout and

30:50

you're saying, okay, we want to grow this feature.

30:53

Or we want to grow the metrics of users on this feature.

30:55

And this is how we're going to do it. You can do that

30:57

with diversity and inclusion too. And it's a lot

30:59

of work. It's a big step, which is why

31:02

it's kind of hard to take that plan. And then when

31:04

you add intersectionality and it too, people

31:06

are just double confused on how we're going to tackle

31:08

that, but it's around. If we can see

31:10

a C-suite level executive,

31:12

put a plan in motion and to say, Hey, we're

31:14

going to do something and here's how we're going

31:16

to do it. That means a lot. And they

31:19

have the power to start to make that work. We've

31:21

seen examples of people

31:23

hiring diversity and inclusion officers,

31:26

but not giving them any power. Putting them

31:28

underneath HR that barely has any

31:30

power or influence with executives

31:32

and people are saying no, that person should report

31:35

to the CEO. That person should

31:37

have influence on how the CTO works.

31:39

They should have conversations with product

31:41

groups and understanding biases and like

31:43

training them on that. It shouldn't be a one-off

31:46

unconscious bias training. And

31:48

then the, the eighths. The diversity

31:50

and inclusion officers, speaking of a bunch of events,

31:53

though, they should actually be partnering with your

31:55

executives to make changes that are going to trickle

31:57

down. And then on top of that, what we're

31:59

seeing and what we like to continue to

32:01

see is that other executives

32:04

are working with each other they're. So they're

32:06

setting inclusion, acts as an industry.

32:08

They're setting standards of how they want

32:10

to go forward across, across

32:12

the industry as a whole and collaborating

32:14

on diversity inclusion efforts as well.

32:16

Microsoft is at a diversity and inclusion

32:19

inclusion conference for the first day

32:21

was open to all of our partners in the community.

32:24

So it was everyone could go and listen to,

32:26

you know, all of the reporting that we've done,

32:29

they could share. We had other organizations

32:31

sharing and we had leaders and executives

32:33

talking openly throughout

32:35

each other's doors around the mistakes that they've

32:37

made. What they're learning, what our metrics

32:39

are and brainstorming with other diverse

32:42

leaders of how we're going to make these changes.

32:44

And so. We want to see the

32:46

conversation. We want to see action more

32:49

than just talk and saying we support black

32:51

lives matter. What are you doing? What are the

32:53

changes? And is this gonna fade away

32:55

as soon as we're all done with this phase

32:58

in 10 years, are we going to see the number

33:00

of black employees stay settled or only

33:02

increase when it comes to

33:04

VCs? Are we going to see the actual

33:06

investment in the black community, into black

33:08

founders or into women founders?

33:11

We want to see your plan or

33:13

that work. And we actually want to see that

33:15

momentum and hold you accountable to

33:18

what we're saying as well. Actually, I'm

33:20

glad you brought up sort of the black VC community. I

33:22

came across this really interesting organization

33:24

the other day. It's called the black

33:27

venture Institute. I don't know if you've heard

33:29

of that. No, I haven't heard of them. So there's

33:31

this sort of trend now where we have a lot

33:33

of these short 10 week. Sort

33:35

of boot camps and I guess black

33:37

venture Institute runs it. Some, some of these boot camps,

33:40

they attract black people they're interested in entering

33:42

the VC industry. And then they run

33:44

masterclasses where they bring in a

33:46

really well renowned VCs and whatnot

33:49

to teach them the ropes get them in the industry,

33:51

you know, build networks. I think that's a perfect example of,

33:53

and that sounds like allyship. That sounds

33:55

like actively going. Here's my privilege.

33:58

Here's my ex. Experience, let me share it

34:00

with you. Let me not give you a roadmap to

34:02

say, Oh, this is my idea. You

34:04

guys can take it and do what you want.

34:06

But you're saying like, let me train you with the

34:08

skills that I've had such a long history

34:10

you know, I'm training in and let me go and share them

34:12

to you. It's. Inside of companies are saying

34:14

like let's actively mentor people

34:16

in an authentic way. And that's a wonderful

34:19

example of how they're saying. Okay. We

34:21

see the, we see the difference. I think I

34:23

saw the metric of like black female,

34:26

or I think 0.0, there were

34:28

0.0, zero six. Black

34:30

female founders or investors

34:32

that got like over a million dollars of

34:34

funding. I think either yes, year or the year before

34:36

that. And so just like, how do

34:38

we address that problem? Cause that's a problem. It's

34:41

not that there are no black women founders,

34:43

like they're not getting the training, they don't

34:45

have that information available

34:47

to them, those resources. And so that's a

34:49

wonder, a full example of how you're seeing

34:51

that problem in the community and an active

34:53

way to go in as an ally to help and improve.

34:56

Sure. Yeah. And I'll actually on the topic of encoded

34:59

bias and also the C-suite

35:01

and what executives are trying to do. I came across

35:03

a really interesting anecdote that Eric

35:05

Schmidt gave. Eric Schmidt for those that don't know

35:07

was the CEO of Google. And he actually joined

35:10

in the really early days. And you explaining hiring

35:12

when they're blitzing and Google. So they're going from like a hundred

35:14

employees to like 10,000 in a two year period

35:17

or three year period. Which is just ridiculous. How

35:19

do you hire the right people, et cetera. And

35:21

the scale that they came up with is

35:23

three or four interviews would go and interview the candidate.

35:26

And each of them would give a number between one to five,

35:28

five being the best and one being the worst.

35:31

And then they'd average it. And then if it hit, I think like, even

35:33

in some cases that even hired people that averaged like a

35:35

2.5 or three just because they're growing so

35:37

fast. And then what they would do

35:39

to see if their original calculation

35:42

was actually correct is give them a number after

35:44

a year into their tenure at Google

35:46

and see, and compare it back to when

35:49

they first hired. Right. So how do they perform

35:51

in the past year? W what are the same five people that

35:53

interviewed them give them now. And

35:55

what they found is that. Unanimously

35:58

women were being under

36:00

counted or getting underscored on average

36:03

when they were being hired. And then a year later

36:05

they were performing way better than the score they were given

36:07

on the interview interview day. And I think that's

36:09

like, and that's sort of the bias that.

36:12

People would have never agreed that they had

36:14

how'd you ask them a year earlier when they were interviewing

36:16

people. Like I'm not enough, I'm not going to show

36:18

any bias against women. I'm not showing any bias against this minority.

36:21

But the fact of the matter is it's in uncoated

36:24

and we ourselves are not aware

36:26

of this bias. So it's,

36:28

it just seems like such a tough

36:30

problem to bring to light people are stubborn people.

36:32

Are they ignorant in some cases it

36:34

seems like a very hard, yeah.

36:37

And then on top of that, it's like the cognitive

36:39

bias as well that people usually go for the

36:41

information that aligns with their belief.

36:44

And that's like, More strong. If you only

36:46

have friends that like agree with

36:48

you, or you only around coworkers that

36:50

have your same belief pattern. And so

36:52

like unconscious bias is like that.

36:54

Like you become aware of it and you start to have

36:56

those conversations at work. And you're like,

36:59

we talked about being brave and checking your assumptions.

37:01

It's an active practice that you have to do

37:04

and start to model every single day.

37:06

And so a lot of more of actionable

37:08

things you can do in those hiring rounds is

37:10

making sure it's a diverse panel of people.

37:13

Making sure that there's double checks on those panels.

37:15

It's not like just one or two people calling

37:17

in a friend. And having them hire and

37:19

kind of do what they need to do, but actually

37:22

making sure that the representation of people

37:24

that are hiring are the people that you're trying

37:26

to get into the company. It's where you're actively

37:28

looking and are the people or the communities

37:31

that you're going to hire in, or the

37:33

people that are hiring or reflection of those

37:35

communities, if you're targeting, targeting them.

37:37

So there's ways to kind of make sure that we're checking.

37:41

Our unconscious bias with actual policies.

37:43

But a lot of the work is just internal. It's when

37:45

our, without ourselves it's things that we have learned

37:47

from so many years and the media

37:50

has put out and like entertainment has done

37:52

to our brains that it's like, unwiring

37:54

something that's been in your head for 25,

37:57

27 years that we have

37:59

to actively untrain. It's really,

38:01

really hard. But you can't like.

38:04

You can't be afraid to start that training and

38:06

know that it's happening every single day and know that

38:08

you're going to make mistakes. You're all, you're going

38:10

to mess up so much, but if

38:12

you're understanding why, and you're making

38:14

sure that you're coaching and you're under, and

38:16

you're you're helping people when you start to coach other

38:18

people, it helps you realize it

38:21

as well. I think I talk about this example

38:23

all the time when it comes to like educating

38:25

people around you in a productive way.

38:27

I think the word now people are talking about like, Council

38:30

culture versus cancel culture. Meaning

38:32

like if you have the energy, I always say, if you have

38:34

the energy, if you have the wherewithal,

38:36

if that person isn't worth losing to you and someone

38:39

sends something that might be offensive, someone

38:41

says something that just like, you don't understand

38:43

why they said that. And you don't know if they're trying

38:45

to be malicious. A lot of things that you can

38:47

say is like ruins the smallest, just like asking.

38:50

I wonder why he said that if someone says Courtney,

38:52

your pink shirt looks stupid. You're like, why did you say

38:54

that? And like, you're not shutting them

38:56

off you're now that you're a pink shirt, racist.

38:59

You're that? You're like, why did you say that? And they're

39:01

like, well, I don't like pink shirts.

39:03

And you're like, why don't you like pink shirts? Oh,

39:05

well, someone in eighth grade punched

39:07

me with the pink shirt. You're like, okay, what does it have to do

39:09

with me? Like, is that an

39:11

unconscious bias you have because of a situation

39:14

that happened personal to you. Okay.

39:16

Like now you recognize that. And you're like, Oh,

39:19

And then you start to unwire that, but that's just like

39:21

one small piece of information. It's a continuous

39:23

practice. But once you understand what that word is,

39:26

and you understand like kind of scenarios

39:28

of hurt and pain and systematic kind of

39:30

trauma that it has on people, if you

39:32

want to take that action to be a better person

39:34

and start to make those changes. Like you

39:36

have that power to do it, but it's, it's not a,

39:38

it's not an overnight switch. What? I think a lot

39:40

of people want it to be, to kind of alleviate

39:43

themselves of the guilt and the pain. Right. Okay.

39:45

I'm doing better. I took the training. I'm good now guys.

39:47

Okay. Unfortunately it's not. And when you have a certain amount

39:49

of privilege as well, it's harder to shake. So,

39:52

let me ask you this. Do you think it'd be progressive

39:54

for companies to say, if you're going to have a particular

39:57

type of meeting that is going to affect

39:59

more than the sort of the representative

40:01

population within this meeting, you should have

40:04

X amount of black

40:06

people or minority or et cetera.

40:09

I would say like, yeah, you don't have to put a number to

40:11

it, but there better be someone at the table

40:13

and you better have them. You have better have

40:15

the space for them. There to

40:17

talk about the issues and ask you don't

40:19

have to direct all of your questions

40:22

to that person, but you

40:24

should be able to call on them

40:26

for guidance because. Person

40:28

that's being affected or the people that are being

40:30

infected. And in that community,

40:32

like you have to talk to them. You have to listen.

40:34

That's part of being an ally and actually making

40:37

a change like a CEO needs to listen

40:39

to the issues. It would be the same as

40:41

if you rolled out a product. And you had so

40:43

many negative complaints about it. Everyone

40:46

hated that feature and you just kept trucking

40:48

along. You're like, Nope, this is it. We got

40:50

it. We're not listening to anybody else. You're not taking

40:52

any consumer feedback. We were just going to keep

40:55

doing that. You're not going to take a very positive

40:57

path long term. And so part of it

40:59

is like listening to the community that is

41:01

in pain. When you make a mistake or you're trying

41:03

to do some stuff and all the policies

41:06

might not work either. And that's okay. Like,

41:08

don't stop trying if you have a women's

41:10

event and you accidentally, like for somehow

41:12

you put all men on the panel to talk about their

41:14

experience and everyone's just like, that was, you know,

41:16

that was awful. Why would you do that? Don't

41:18

shut down the women's conference. Just do it better

41:21

next year. Learn and grow from it.

41:23

So it, yeah, and I forgot

41:25

the question that we started with, but yeah,

41:27

yeah, exactly. I think you answered it, which was would

41:29

it be progressive to set limits on or say

41:32

specifically, you know, have a particular person

41:34

at the table exactly. Go to the root

41:36

of the problem. Don't be afraid to be yelled at.

41:38

But like that, person's probably going to be the angriest

41:40

too, which is good. Get it out. Let them

41:43

talk to you about the issue. Don't take it

41:45

personal or taken an event as a

41:47

fence, unless it is personal, but maybe

41:49

you should take it personal, but just

41:52

listen, be there. And don't be afraid

41:54

of that pain because it's not anger.

41:56

Maybe towards her directed towards you. It's just pain.

41:59

People are in pain. People are fear and

42:01

feel. It are feeling a lot of discomfort

42:03

unfortunately where they work and where they find

42:05

passions enjoy. And so to actively

42:08

ignore that and just say like, Oh, we're helping

42:10

without going. And talking to that person

42:12

is very hurtful and very painful and people

42:15

know. People can tell when a statement

42:17

is rolled out and you're just like that, that

42:19

didn't hit home. That didn't have anything

42:22

to do with me. And it, it makes

42:24

your trust level so much more worse when you're

42:26

just gloss over the issue. Yeah.

42:28

Actually, I just wanted to share one more story in the early days

42:30

of clubhouse, I remember going, and this really showed me the power

42:32

of clubhouse. I go in and there's this

42:35

ongoing room about

42:37

the it was titled like SF

42:39

is terrible, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, the title

42:41

SF sucks. And then on the stage where

42:43

four or five white VCs and

42:46

they were just going off about

42:49

SF and all the things wrong with it. And

42:51

then at some point to the credit of Chesa boudin,

42:53

who's the attorney general, I think, or.

42:55

He, Oh, he's a da, sorry. He's a da district

42:58

attorney. He jumps in and he's one of, they

43:00

were blaming him for a lot of things. He just jumps into the clubhouse

43:02

and he jumps on stage and he takes

43:04

them out because he is a trained lawyer to

43:06

his credit. And so he had great arguments and

43:08

whatnot. So this entire thing goes on. Obviously it

43:10

wraps up. Boom, it's done. Immediately

43:12

after it's done. I think it had numbers like 2000 people

43:15

immediately after finishes. Another clubhouse

43:17

room opens up and it's all

43:19

the people of color that were not included in the original

43:21

conversation with, I guess, quote, unquote,

43:23

more powerful people, more influential people. And

43:25

people from Oakland is people from SF people who have been

43:27

in the Bay area for generations. You know, they. Born

43:30

and brought up in Oakland versus all these people

43:32

are more like they moved there for their jobs they're

43:34

like, how did they have this entire conversation

43:36

without any one of us being there on

43:38

stage? When we make up almost half of the population

43:41

BNSF we've been here far longer than

43:43

them, we built this city to what it is. We

43:45

bought the, the, the, you know, we, we did the work.

43:48

And I think for me, that was

43:50

like really insightful because this is the

43:52

allyship. And this is having

43:54

somebody in the room who can speak for more

43:57

than people being represented. A hundred percent.

43:59

And it feels like when you come out of those,

44:01

you're like, how does someone miss that? You're

44:03

like, no one thought to put another

44:06

person, like one person of color

44:08

on that stage. But it's so easy to miss.

44:10

If you're just in this bubble, if you think

44:12

you're doing a common good, or you're just trying

44:14

to hit a bottom line, it's so hard to

44:16

reflect unless you have someone there to check and

44:18

it's not someone who's like policing you. It's just someone

44:20

with a different perspective that would see that and be

44:22

like, Hey, the people in this panel

44:24

that are complaining the most, don't actually make up the

44:26

population and maybe someone can counter that

44:29

argument and it might be a better conversation,

44:31

like, and that's okay. It's an uncomfortable conversation,

44:33

but it's something that needed to happen. Yeah, that's

44:35

a really good example of just like. Right

44:38

over the head bread for the head.

44:41

Yeah. I think you should listen to this episode after it comes out. I

44:46

hope they learn. How about that? We just learn and grow

44:48

for sure. Yeah. Great. So I

44:51

I really appreciate you coming on and sharing

44:53

all of your wisdom with us, Courtney. I think

44:55

it's been incredibly enlightening and I'm going to take this with me forever.

44:59

No expert, by the way. I

45:01

know expert in a lot of times, like, I think

45:04

over this past like I said, after the murder of

45:06

George Florida and everyone kind of jumping on

45:08

with the black lives matter movement, a

45:10

lot of minority people in

45:12

tech and a lot of minority people inside of

45:14

their industries were kind of forced into the front.

45:17

I got a lot of people asking me questions and I'm just

45:19

like, I had to like check my own biases

45:21

and kind of have those conversations with myself

45:23

too, that I wasn't ready

45:25

for. And a lot of like that I had to take the time

45:28

to go learn because. One thing is that I'm

45:30

an educated African-American woman

45:32

and that doesn't make up the majority of

45:34

my community either. So even sometimes

45:37

going and connecting back to. My

45:39

population, like I have a privileged that

45:41

I don't understand. I'm also an African-American

45:44

woman who was born

45:46

inside of an African-American community, but

45:48

grew up in a predominantly white community.

45:50

So I have different biases that I have different

45:52

privileges and things that I don't understand

45:55

about someone else's perspective in the African-American

45:57

community. So I, when I was kind

45:59

of starting to answer questions and I'm like, wait, I

46:01

don't make up the makeup, everything, I don't have the

46:03

answers. That's kind of my thing. Like I

46:05

have my perspective. And I like it.

46:08

I liked my perspective. I kind of can share

46:10

with other people, but definitely having

46:12

conversations. And I'm just saying,

46:14

like, if you listen to this podcast, like

46:16

keep talking to other people, go learn from other

46:18

people, go learn from others as many different

46:20

voices and perspectives that you can.

46:23

Cause that's how we grow as a society is if we go

46:25

around people that don't look like us and

46:27

go learn as much as you can, because you can learn from everybody.

46:29

That's how I live my life. Everyone has something to learn. Yeah.

46:32

Th th there's a great essay called the invisible

46:35

knapsack. So that essay

46:37

is about that essay

46:39

says that minorities in America are

46:41

carrying and knapsack are

46:43

carrying this additional weight that the

46:46

majority never has to carry. For example,

46:48

when you do something as a minority, you represent.

46:51

Your entire community. Whereas if a

46:53

majority person does something, that's just one individual,

46:55

you know, when you speak, you speak for everyone

46:59

that shouldn't be the default assumption, belted.

47:01

It definitely in college. And it's actually something

47:03

that I studied in college because it does affect

47:05

like test scores and things like that. Like

47:07

I graduated with a class of maybe

47:10

80 to 70 people and I was the only

47:12

black woman. There were three women and

47:15

I think maybe two other African-American people.

47:18

So like that's. In 2017

47:21

in you know, in Ohio. So I

47:23

felt bad that like, Oh, if I talk too loud,

47:26

everybody here is in a lot of people and my friends

47:28

that were there, they were just like, yeah, I grew up in a predominantly

47:30

white town. Like you're the first black friend I have. You

47:33

were the plus black folks that I've actually had a conversation.

47:35

Right. Which is great. But also like now

47:38

they think that all black people act like me, like

47:41

isn't the Kings and they haven't solved their issues

47:43

yet. Like, and so you feel that

47:45

pressure. And I definitely had a lot of testing anxiety,

47:48

which is, I don't know if it was linked to that,

47:50

just because like, I love learning. I love

47:52

teaching people and my friends would always say like, why.

47:54

Like you teach us everything. Why are your test scores

47:57

always lower? And I'm just like, I don't know. I have

47:59

test anxiety. I just don't like the pressure.

48:01

And so like, it's felt still

48:03

to this day and it's talking about that weight

48:05

of like, you have to do two times amount of work for

48:08

just the amount of recognition as everybody else.

48:10

It's very true. And it's a lot of pressure

48:12

and it's a lot of walking into his face and always

48:14

looking different and trying to control your behavior

48:17

to make everyone so everyone else uncomfortable,

48:19

comfortable. So it's there and it's

48:21

financial too. They talk about the black tax.

48:24

A lot of people like African-American community

48:26

don't come to generational wealth. And

48:28

a lot of times when they do get to wealth, because

48:31

of the fact that their parents didn't have it in a lot of American

48:33

grants feel this first-generation Americans as well

48:35

that they have to now support themselves and

48:37

their family above them. And that's a reality

48:39

for a lot of people like who start in

48:42

the industry. Okay. I got this

48:44

wonderful paycheck, but now I got to pay for my brother's

48:46

house and my mom needs help. She

48:48

has some health care problems and like, even

48:50

that weight is a black tax that

48:52

they talk about too. So there's just a lot of

48:54

work that still needs to be undone, which

48:56

is why when people say like, Our

48:58

industry is doing well. What do you think we're doing good.

49:00

It's just like, no, one's doing great. Like the

49:03

bar is super low and we have to put that

49:05

bar up a lot higher. Yeah. So

49:08

just to wrap things up here, are there any books,

49:10

any essays, anything that you think people should

49:12

Google? Oh, actually

49:15

let me, can I get a list out real quick? Yes,

49:18

we have it nicely enough. We have like

49:20

an internal diversity page

49:22

for my organization and we have a book list. What's

49:25

the organization. Let's see commercial or

49:27

commercial software engineering. So the org inside

49:29

of Microsoft. Yeah. Our organization

49:32

to a light, like when the black lives matter

49:34

movement started kicking off, like we had a. Like

49:37

project Rosa is a grassroots project

49:39

that we started, like a lot of African-American

49:41

employees and it's still going. A lot of great leaders

49:44

are taking that effort that they were just like, Nope,

49:46

we're sick of this. We're actually gonna start making noise

49:48

now. And luckily we have a very

49:50

our leadership was like very empathetic

49:52

and like, yes, take the floor. Like.

49:55

Like we're putting ourselves accountable. We're

49:57

partnering with this organization to like hire

49:59

more African-American people then have these uncomfortable

50:02

conversations every month and

50:04

put this wonderful patients in there. So

50:06

a lot of people recommend like how to be, how

50:08

to not be, or how to be, let

50:10

me do this again. So we have, Oh, examples such as like

50:12

lead from the outside by Stacey Abrams.

50:15

Who's a wonderful activist that you've probably

50:17

heard of during the elections. We have

50:19

a couple other ones such as algorithms

50:21

of oppression, which is a good tech book. So just

50:23

understanding unconscious bias when it comes

50:25

to Technology invisible women

50:28

is a wonderful book as well. Automating

50:30

inequality is a good book when it comes

50:32

to tech as well. The age of surveillance

50:35

capitalism, which is cool. I like

50:37

that. I've read that one. That's really cool. I'm

50:39

trying to think of other ones as well. There's like.

50:42

There's a lot of documentaries as well. One of my favorite

50:44

documentaries Washington college's 13th

50:46

that really just shakes you to

50:49

the world. Like that's just a rough punch in the

50:51

face of like, Oh, this

50:53

is what's happening. Oh my gosh.

50:55

Like I did not know a lot of people

50:57

that came to me like. Was just like, Oh Courtney,

50:59

what are some books I can read? I'm just like, we'll start

51:02

with 13th. Go watch that first. And

51:04

then it's kind of a trickle down for there. And anti-racist

51:06

reading lists by there's a list online.

51:09

Ebrum X Kennedy's lists. And

51:11

it's just a good list of books there that you can kind of

51:13

start to watch it a lot of fiction too,

51:15

which is nice. Cause you can learn from fiction

51:17

is just like people writing about their

51:20

perspectives that are rarely nice glamorous way

51:22

back. Right. But they were having some

51:24

pretty hard reality. So like the color

51:26

purple, which is one of my favorite books and their eyes

51:28

were watching, God is just like a very.

51:31

Beautifully told story. Just kind of

51:33

about racism in a way that

51:35

like the moral of the story generally is just like,

51:37

be a good goddamn person but

51:40

so it's cool that, that book, that lists has a lot

51:42

of fiction and nonfiction lists as well. Cool.

51:45

Well, these are conversations that we should constantly

51:47

be having. You know, it's not going to end

51:49

after one year. It's not going to end after a few

51:52

laws are passed. It's not going to end.

51:55

The minority representation hits

51:57

some percentage. You know, these are things that we

51:59

need to constantly improve and grow at the

52:01

stations with people that don't look like me.

52:04

There have them with people, people that look like

52:06

you have them at your family dinner, because a

52:08

lot of times the conversation is

52:10

lost when a person of color or

52:12

an LGBTQ plus person isn't

52:14

in the room. And so those needs have happened

52:16

and you can inform yourself with people like

52:18

me, but actually like. Speaking up

52:20

for someone like me when I'm not in the room is something

52:23

that really needs to happen a lot more. Absolutely.

52:26

Thank you, Courtney. I learned a lot too. No

52:29

problem. Thanks for having me again. I can't wait for

52:31

spot number three. I'm not looking myself

52:33

early, but I am. No,

52:36

we'll we'll definitely have you back. Please stay.

52:39

I love talking to you. That's

52:41

our episode for this week. Thank you so much for listening.

52:43

Make sure to subscribe to us and rate us on Apple

52:45

podcasts. We would really appreciate

52:47

the support. You can also follow me on

52:49

Twitter at F Z from Cupertino

52:52

and Busan. The ad next facade.

52:54

See you guys next week.