0:14

Welcome to Air Quality Matters . I

0:16

believe through conversation we

0:19

learn , gain insight and

0:21

move forward together . We

0:24

already know so much of what we need

0:26

to succeed . How well we

0:28

communicate and share this knowledge

0:30

is the key to success . This

0:33

is episode 29 and we changed things

0:35

up a bit this week . With a

0:37

political change on the horizon this summer

0:39

in the UK , what would you

0:41

say to the next government about air quality

0:44

? Well , I was delighted to

0:46

be invited by Policy Connect to

0:48

a thinking with some brilliant

0:51

panellists to discuss just this . Policy

0:54

Connect is a cross-party think tank

0:56

that's led prominent all-party

0:58

parliamentary groups in the UK

1:00

Parliament Through

1:02

the APPGs on carbon monoxide

1:05

and health . Policy Connect

1:07

has convened members of the UK's Parliament

1:09

, chamber of MPs and peers

1:12

to promote effective policy

1:14

thinking around indoor air quality

1:16

. They bring policy

1:18

together with a range of leaders in housing

1:21

and clean air to prioritise

1:23

action on indoor air pollution and

1:25

marked Clean Air Day with

1:28

this timely indoor air quality thinking

1:30

to set priorities for

1:32

the incoming UK government after

1:35

the July UK general election . I'll

1:38

leave it to Galen Common from Policy

1:40

Connect to introduce this fantastic

1:42

panel . Thanks for listening , as always

1:45

, and please do check out the sponsors

1:47

of the show in the notes . This

1:49

is Air Quality Matters and a

1:51

conversation led by Galen

1:53

Common .

1:54

So , baroness Natalie Bennett , I'm

1:56

delighted to have

1:59

here today former leader of the Green Party and a peer

2:01

in the House of Lords , dr Douglas

2:03

Booker , a lecturer in indoor air in

2:05

the School of Civil Engineering at the University

2:07

of Leeds . Matt Towner

2:11

, programme Director of the Health Effects

2:13

of Air Pollution at Impact on Urban

2:15

Health . And Professor Sarah

2:17

West , director and Senior Research Associate

2:19

at the Stockholm Environment Institute at

2:21

the University of York . Last

2:24

but not least , simon Jones , founder of the air

2:26

quality matters consultancy and

2:28

podcast very

2:30

much a whistle-stop introduction of all our panel

2:32

today . So it'd be great to have

2:35

panelists introduce themselves and a bit

2:37

of the work that they do around

2:39

indoor air quality and potentially flesh

2:42

out a key priority action that

2:44

needs to happen to improve indoor

2:46

air quality in the UK . I'll hand the floor

2:49

to Baroness Natalie Bennett first

2:51

.

2:52

Well , thank you very much and first of all just to apologise

2:55

to all participants . I'm joining you from the cafe

2:58

in Crewe train station , so any

3:00

interruptions are not entirely under my own control

3:02

, but this

3:05

is such an important issue I was determined to make this

3:07

timing work and

3:09

I think , picking up first of all the point

3:12

that Gayle had made about carbon

3:14

monoxide that , of course , is the acute

3:16

, deadly side of the issue of indoor

3:18

air quality and I suspect others

3:21

will really pick up and run with that in detail

3:24

. So I'm going to say it's there , it's an important

3:26

issue , but actually what I'm going to look at

3:28

, as the Green Party I think often does , is look

3:30

forward further into

3:32

broader issues that really during

3:35

the COVID pandemic , at the height of that

3:37

, leapt up to the agenda but unfortunately

3:39

have just been allowed to slide . And

3:42

these are huge issues of public

3:44

health , about how we have a healthy society

3:47

, and I believe that poor indoor air

3:49

quality is a significant factor in

3:51

terms of the terrible levels of public

3:54

health we have in the UK . Now

3:56

lots of people are focused on our productivity

3:58

gap , the number of people who are

4:00

not in paid employment because of ill

4:02

health , and I don't think indoor air quality

4:05

has got nearly enough attention in that , which is related

4:07

to perhaps broader issues of the quality of housing

4:09

, in which indoor air quality is a part

4:11

. Just to sort of start the discussion

4:13

, there's two main areas that I want to focus on

4:16

. One is the infectious diseases , and

4:18

I should perhaps mention that my first

4:20

degree is agricultural science . Unfortunately

4:23

, there are very few people in politics from

4:25

a scientific background and we desperately need more

4:27

people with that kind of background . But I

4:29

bring that background in and I do a lot

4:31

of work on antimicrobial resistance in

4:33

particular , which there's going to be a high-level UN meeting

4:35

of in September at the General Assembly

4:38

, and thinking

4:40

about that and looking at those issues and looking at COVID

4:42

and looking at H5N5

4:45

, the H5 , got

4:47

the numbers now anyway highly pathogenic avian

4:50

influenza which

4:52

has now been found in dairy cattle in

4:55

the US and has spread to humans in the US

4:57

. Flu viruses are you know we

4:59

have huge pandemic threats flu viruses , among

5:02

them Victorians who

5:04

didn't have antibiotics , were very

5:06

focused on ventilation and clean

5:08

air . You know we go back to

5:10

Florence Nightingale . She had a huge focus

5:12

on that . We've kind of had antibiotics

5:15

and had the idea that people get diseases and we fix

5:17

them and we've stopped thinking about how to stop people

5:19

having diseases in the first place . So

5:21

I think that we need to go back to thinking

5:23

about how do we ensure that people have clean , regularly

5:26

, either ventilated or , if that's not possible

5:29

, filtered indoor

5:31

clean air to deal with infectious diseases

5:33

. The other area that I've got a lot of interest

5:35

in is chemical regulation , and I

5:37

wince every time I see an advert

5:40

for air freshener and

5:42

I note that the Royal Society for

5:44

Chemistry just this week I think it

5:46

was last week was saying just

5:49

how much they're concerned about the lack of chemical

5:51

regulation in the UK and we are

5:53

actually poisoning our indoor airspaces with things

5:55

that are heavily advertised towards all

5:57

of us and we need to tackle that

5:59

advertising . I'm looking at perhaps

6:01

having a private member's bill on biocides and

6:05

poisonous chemicals in those household goods in

6:07

the next parliament . I think it's urgently needed

6:09

. We need to push for those things . And

6:11

just one final thought , which is something

6:13

that I pushed a lot at the height of the COVID

6:15

pandemic why do we

6:17

not have in public spaces like

6:19

cafes and pubs , et cetera , cafes

6:24

and pubs , et cetera . It would not be a major

6:26

job of work to have a rating for ventilation or air filtration

6:28

on the door , just like we have a health

6:30

rating for the food standards that

6:33

has been introduced in other places . It's an obvious

6:36

thing to do that allows people to make choices

6:38

for themselves about their own health

6:40

and allows businesses to actually make

6:42

a selling point of the fact that they've got good ventilation

6:44

and good air filtration . Um

6:47

, so those are , that's my sort

6:49

of introductory comments , introductory thoughts . Thanks

6:51

very much , gan thanks

6:55

, natalie .

6:55

Thanks so much for that . Um appreciate your leadership

6:58

on um indoor air quality in particular

7:00

in parliament , given it's uh often

7:02

overlooked . Uh over to you

7:04

, dr Booker , for a word

7:06

of introduction and some priorities on

7:08

indoor air quality .

7:11

Yeah , thank you . So my research and teaching

7:13

is on the role that buildings play

7:16

on health and equity indoors , and

7:18

that largely covers the physical and

7:20

social dimensions of indoor air quality

7:22

. So I'm involved

7:24

in a lot of work which is generating evidence

7:27

through making measurements in a range of

7:29

different indoor environments on indoor air quality

7:31

. But a real interest and focus

7:34

of mine is on questions

7:36

about what a fair indoor air quality

7:38

situation is . I think we have a much

7:40

clearer idea based on outdoor air

7:42

, but much less in the built environment , so

7:52

particularly interested in uncovering the social mechanisms that underpin

7:54

patterns of exposure , whether that is housing or any other type of

7:56

thing , but then thinking about why

7:58

some people might be exposed to worse indoor

8:01

air quality than others . Just as a

8:03

quick note , the other hat that I'm wearing

8:05

today is I am a regional

8:07

clean air champion through the UK

8:09

Research and Innovation Clean Air Programme

8:12

, which is a £42.5 million research

8:14

investment , which is really about

8:16

making sure that a lot of

8:18

the world-leading physical and social

8:21

science research that's being done on air quality

8:23

is linked up with policy and other stakeholders

8:25

.

8:29

Thanks , dr Booker , for the introduction

8:31

. Matt over to you .

8:34

Thanks . So , hi everyone , I'm

8:37

the Programme Director for Impact

8:39

on Urban Health's programme addressing the health effects

8:41

of air pollution programme

8:43

. For those of you that don't

8:45

know , impact on urban health is a part of guys and st

8:47

thomas's foundation , and we're one of the

8:49

largest uk um health focused

8:51

foundations . Um , and

8:53

I guess why we exist is because

8:56

, in across the uk and in south

8:58

london , where we're based , people living just

9:00

streets apart can experience huge

9:02

differences in their health

9:04

, often ultimately due to poverty and

9:07

or racism . And so we exist

9:09

to close that gap

9:12

, and so we fund and collaborate with partners

9:14

who are delivering projects , research and

9:16

services that address health inequality , and we

9:18

try to build evidence as to how we can construct a

9:20

healthier society and ultimately look

9:22

to scale that example through policy

9:24

advocacy . So , um , we

9:27

have a program on on air pollution

9:29

. Um , and indoor

9:32

air quality is a really , really central part of

9:34

that . It can be devastating for people's health

9:36

and , um , often it's impacting

9:38

people living on low incomes the hardest

9:40

, both because of exposure um

9:42

, cheaper housing is often worse quality

9:45

and because of wider inequalities

9:47

that make those people more susceptible to its

9:49

its health effects . And it's also an

9:51

issue that comes up time and again for for

9:53

communities . So we've included in our strategy partly

9:55

for for that that reason

9:58

, um , and

10:00

in terms of , in terms of um , I

10:03

think overall we want

10:05

to see the next government introducing

10:07

a really ambitious new Clean Air Act that makes

10:10

breathing safe and healthy a

10:12

human right and which places the WHO

10:14

air quality guidelines in

10:17

law and

10:19

indoor air quality should be a big part of that

10:21

in sort of four ways . So one

10:23

we'd really like to see um the people most

10:25

affected by indoor air pollution involved in

10:27

policy making . Often , uh , people

10:30

on low incomes , people from black and other minority

10:32

ethnic backgrounds living in urban areas , aren't

10:34

sufficiently , uh

10:36

, consulted . Secondly

10:39

, we'd like to see retrofitting done with

10:41

a a clear health lens

10:43

. So it's clearly one of the the

10:45

key issues , issues or actions that government

10:48

can take to tackle the climate crisis

10:50

, to tackle the cost of living , but

10:52

also to protect health , and , with that

10:55

in mind , home energy measures must

10:57

benefit indoor air quality , including

10:59

through adequate ventilation . Otherwise

11:03

, insulation and other measures

11:06

can concentrate pollutants indoors

11:08

, and so

11:11

government can take that into account when revising building

11:13

standards and making sure the industry's really

11:16

well equipped to deal with these challenges . Thirdly

11:19

, we'd like to see bold

11:21

action to tackle damp and mold across

11:24

all housing tenures . So

11:26

we know that both private

11:29

rented housing and socially rented housing

11:31

is in a state of disrepair , and

11:35

so and damp and mould is prevalent in nine

11:37

and five percent of homes respectively

11:40

. So our

11:42

law , which some of you may be familiar

11:45

with , represents a large step forward , but we'd like

11:47

to see that applied to the private rental

11:49

sector and more investment in socially

11:51

rented homes . And then the last thing I'll

11:53

quickly mention is we'd like

11:55

to see a phase out of wood burning stoves , which

11:58

is a huge issue indoor for

12:00

the people burning wood

12:03

, but also for people's neighbours

12:06

, and so

12:08

our research has shown that awareness

12:10

is really low at this issue , and that's currently an impediment

12:12

to the ambitious policy action we

12:15

need to see . Thank

12:17

you , Thanks , matt .

12:18

Saw lots of nodding heads

12:20

in regards to your point , so I'm sure we'll

12:22

have lots of fruitful discussion on those . Those thanks

12:25

for that , um , that detail , and professor

12:27

sarah west , over to you thanks

12:30

, yes , um , I'm sarah west .

12:32

I'm director of the stockholm environment institute at

12:34

the university of york and sei

12:36

does lots of work on air quality both

12:38

in the uk and overseas . And I

12:40

must say , my expertise is not as an

12:42

air quality researcher but as an engagement

12:44

specialist , and I'm working on a couple of projects

12:46

at the moment , including one funded

12:48

by that big programme that Douglas

12:51

mentioned . So that's Ingenious , which is

12:53

looking at air quality in homes in Bradford

12:55

, and then there's SAMI , which is working

12:57

with schools right across the UK , and

12:59

both of these projects are looking to monitor

13:02

air quality in homes and

13:04

schools respectively , but also

13:06

raise awareness of the issue . And

13:09

I had a whole list of things that I was going

13:11

to rattle off and as Matt

13:14

and Natalie and Douglas

13:16

were talking , I was like oh , they've already said that , they've

13:18

already said that , they've already said that . The things

13:20

that I can add is

13:23

thinking beyond the UK

13:25

. In developing countries , indoor

13:27

air quality is a public health crisis

13:30

and it's a real opportunity

13:32

for the a new government whichever new

13:34

government it is to really show

13:36

leadership in this space by

13:38

supporting countries to integrate

13:41

climate change and air quality

13:43

policies together , because there's so many

13:45

co-benefits by actually considering

13:48

these two things together , but

13:51

we also need to look at our

13:53

own approach to governance of indoor

13:55

air quality . In the UK We've

13:57

struggled , with the projects that I've mentioned

13:59

, to actually find out

14:01

who we need to talk to in government

14:04

departments , and that's because it's not currently any

14:06

one government department's responsibility

14:08

. Indoor air quality is not the responsibility

14:10

of DEFRA . It perhaps should

14:12

be the health and social care people , but it's

14:14

not really their responsibility and it's really

14:17

challenging . So I think

14:19

we need to join up the government departments . Maybe

14:21

we have some cross-departmental working

14:24

groups , um , and we also need cross-party

14:26

working groups so that actually we've got all

14:28

of these different parties coming together

14:31

um to address indoor air quality

14:33

and we also need to consider outdoor

14:35

air quality at the same time , because , you

14:37

know , it's not like our indoor spaces

14:39

are divorced from our

14:41

outdoor spaces . We need to improve the outdoor

14:43

air quality and we need to tackle indoor

14:46

air quality together .

14:49

Thank you , sarah . Definitely agree

14:52

with the point on cross-party working and achieve

14:55

that lasting benefit through that in particular . And

14:57

lastly , simon , over to you .

15:02

Yeah , thank you . Well

15:04

, I kind of sit , as I often do , in

15:06

this middle ground between academia

15:09

and an industry and policy

15:11

and , um , that's partly

15:13

what the consultancy does . Air quality

15:15

matters is work with organizations

15:17

on on navigating this complex

15:20

sector . Um

15:22

, and I'm very fortunate , through

15:24

the podcast , to speak to domain

15:27

experts across the

15:29

world when it comes to all

15:31

three of those pillars , both academic

15:34

and industry and policy

15:36

, and I think

15:38

it's been very well articulated so far some

15:40

of the challenges we face . But

15:42

what I would say is that I think

15:45

we already have a lot of the tools

15:47

that we need to get better

15:49

outcomes in this sector

15:51

. There is a phenomenal amount

15:53

of knowledge out there , both within

15:56

academic circles , within industry

15:58

and within policy internationally

16:01

on how to get this stuff right . Where

16:04

we fall over in the built environment time

16:06

and time again is in the application

16:08

of that knowledge and the policing of that knowledge

16:11

. In many

16:13

spaces that we have , there are only

16:15

a limited number of levers that we can

16:17

pull to affect a better outcome

16:20

in those spaces and

16:22

sometimes we just need to

16:24

value those levers well

16:26

enough to affect the change that we

16:28

need . So it

16:30

has been well pointed out so far

16:32

that indoor air quality is the single

16:35

biggest environmental risk we

16:37

face . In the UK Estimates up with 20

16:39

billion a year . It costs us per

16:41

year to sort this crisis

16:44

out . It should be important enough

16:46

to start taking this seriously

16:48

. And the final thing that

16:50

I would add is because

16:53

it's such a broad sector and because there's

16:55

so much going on , we really need

16:57

coordination of this , whether

16:59

that's political or through something like

17:01

an observatory , political

17:07

or through something like an observatory . This needs to be coordinated because there's too much duplication

17:09

and too much siloing , whether that's between departments

17:11

or whether that's within academic circles

17:14

or the difference between academia

17:16

and industry . So that

17:19

coordination , I think , if we're going to make traction

17:21

forward , is going to be absolutely critical

17:23

. Thank you , thanks

17:31

, simon .

17:31

Um , yeah , I think the point on effective governance is really important and then hopefully we

17:33

can come on to that later . Maybe want to pick up your your earlier

17:35

point on um

17:38

, utilizing or making

17:40

best use of what we already have . It

17:43

leads nicely into our next section on

17:46

government support for action . We've

17:49

done lots of work with local authorities , among

17:53

others , in the industry and third

17:55

sector on the work that's already

17:57

underway around indoor air quality

17:59

. Often

18:02

the issue comes up that they just need the

18:04

proper government support for what they're doing

18:06

. And perhaps

18:09

, sarah , given your your

18:11

expertise in

18:14

community engagement , I

18:16

wonder if you've got any insights on the work

18:19

that you've been doing and difficulties

18:21

in in practical action

18:24

to improve indoor air quality , if there's anything

18:26

that needs to come maybe from government or councils

18:28

or otherwise , to to better help your work

18:31

yeah , I

18:33

think .

18:34

Thank you . I think one of the big

18:36

challenges is that people

18:38

, first of all , aren't necessarily aware of

18:41

what is in the air . But there's lots of projects

18:43

now which are kind of trying to raise awareness through

18:45

monitoring etc in homes

18:47

, um , but I think the

18:50

other thing is about powerlessness of people

18:52

to actually do anything about it . So , for example

18:55

, we know that , uh

18:57

, ventilating whilst cooking is

18:59

really important , and whilst cleaning as well . So

19:02

, so , cooking and cleaning , get your extractor

19:04

fans on . What do you do if you don't

19:06

have an extractor fan or you don't

19:08

have a working extractor fan and

19:10

then ? So there , I really do think we need government

19:13

pressure on landlords so

19:25

private and social landlords to actually

19:28

make sure that we have ventilation

19:30

systems that are actually working , and

19:33

I think that would really help , because there's

19:35

no point in us raising awareness of an issue

19:38

and people being not having anything that they can do about it , most

19:40

likely to live in poor quality housing , who

19:42

are not able to do anything about improving

19:44

their own ventilation or perhaps can't open windows

19:47

because they are opening them out

19:49

onto a busy street those are also

19:51

the people that are most likely to be affected

19:53

by poor air quality

19:55

. So they will be . They'll be exposed to more

19:58

poor air and

20:00

they're also going to have worse health effects

20:02

from it . Perhaps they've got smaller lungs , for example , or they've got

20:04

chronic health conditions which mean that they're actually going to be more health effects from it . Perhaps

20:06

they've got smaller lungs , for example , or they've got chronic health conditions which mean that they're actually going to be more exposed . So

20:08

I do think we need real leadership in this

20:10

space from

20:12

government around legislating

20:14

about that ventilation

20:17

, which is a relatively simple

20:19

solution that individuals can do , but

20:21

they aren't currently being supported to do so individuals

20:25

can do , but they aren't currently being supported

20:28

to do so .

20:30

Matt , I appreciate you probably have lots of expertise as well to bring on that point

20:32

around community engagement . Do you have any further reflections on

20:35

that point ?

20:38

I mean . So

20:44

, on what Sarah said , I would endorse that wholeheartedly

20:47

. I mean , we can't see this as being

20:49

primarily an issue of personal

20:52

responsibility , as

20:55

she articulated really well . Lots of these factors

20:57

are outside of their control , they're in the hands of landlords

20:59

. That's not to say that people

21:02

don't care . And when our community

21:04

, when community research that we've done has

21:06

, um , you know , informed people

21:08

of the health effects , then they , they , they want to know

21:10

about solutions and I think there are sort

21:12

of you know , the odd low-cost thing that people

21:14

can , can do themselves , but but

21:17

overwhelmingly we need to be focusing on that

21:19

systemic response , um , partly

21:21

because also these are the same people

21:23

that are affected by inequalities

21:25

around access to healthy food , financial

21:27

hardship , etc . It's incredibly stressful

21:30

being poor in Britain and let's not put the burden

21:32

on those

21:34

people over . Overall

21:36

, in terms of the action that we we'd

21:38

like to see , we agree with the recommendations

21:40

of the CMO chief medical officer

21:43

, professor Chris Whitty , in calling

21:45

for government to work with local authorities

21:47

, set out a clear roadmap for

21:49

improving indoor air pollution and

21:51

improving ventilation wherever possible , and

21:54

that's also part of what the Healthy

21:56

Air Coalition are calling for , who

21:58

we're a part of . Thanks

22:01

.

22:01

Matt , you

22:03

hit upon a key point that it's

22:05

often particularly with their work around

22:08

ambient air . It falls

22:10

on local authorities to tackle air pollution , but

22:12

it's very much a collective struggle and there's

22:14

lots of industry and third sector partners

22:16

that can provide

22:18

support . Simon

22:21

, you've got something of an industry perspective

22:24

on this , what you see the role of non-governmental

22:26

actors being on that local level in

22:28

the kind of on the ground action around

22:31

indoor air pollution Also

22:33

, obviously , questions to the floor . Anyone else come on

22:35

to that ?

22:39

Yeah , well , I think one interesting aspect

22:42

of indoor air quality is

22:44

not just on the government , but it's also

22:46

on others that are responsible

22:49

for the indoor environment that

22:51

people are exposed to , and one area

22:53

that's going through huge change at

22:55

the moment is indoor air quality

22:57

in the workplace . There's

23:00

a huge opportunity to

23:03

bring in stakeholders

23:05

in the co-benefits

23:07

of improving indoor air quality by

23:10

improving air quality within the workplace

23:12

. So , whether we're talking about the

23:14

commercial sector or public buildings

23:16

, or education or hospitals

23:19

and increasingly now even people's

23:22

homes through home working and hybrid

23:24

working , these are all workplaces

23:27

and there's enormous opportunity

23:29

to bring other stakeholders

23:32

and industries , power and

23:34

insight and influence to

23:36

bear in improving a large

23:38

part of people's exposure to

23:40

poor air quality .

23:41

to poor

23:44

air quality .

23:48

That's me , if

23:50

I could just come in briefly to really reinforce the point that we can't make this individual responsibility

23:52

. It has to be a system change approach

23:54

, and I think that's one of the reasons why I think

23:56

most of the focus on indoor air quality has

24:00

been on issues of mould

24:02

, issues of carbon monoxide

24:04

, carbon dioxide

24:07

, even showing how poor it is . We

24:09

haven't really linked up , and there's some people

24:11

campaigning very hard on issues of COVID is

24:13

not over the infectious disease

24:15

. I think one of the things we can do more is

24:17

link up these two issues . They've

24:20

tended to be two different groups of people saying much

24:22

the same thing but not really talking to each other or joining

24:24

up with each other , and I think one

24:27

of the things to say about the infectious disease aspect

24:29

of this is that you know

24:31

, no one is safe until everyone is safe

24:33

. That was a phrase we learnt during

24:35

COVID in terms of a global

24:37

, internationalist kind of perspective . But

24:40

you know , you might be wealthy , you might live in , you

24:42

know know , an airy , spacious home

24:44

, uh , but the risk of disease spreading

24:46

through environments that aren't properly

24:48

ventilated is a risk that rests

24:50

on you as well . Um , and so

24:52

you know we've got to join this a lot together and say

24:54

healthiness is both chemicals

24:57

it's molds

24:59

and quality of homes and ventilation and all

25:01

those things . But it's also infectious disease and

25:03

, putting this all together , it's in everyone's interest to

25:05

tackle this and it has to be tackled on

25:07

a systemic level . We can't just rely

25:10

on individuals who you know , very often

25:12

are private or council tenants with very little

25:14

power and trying to do something and getting nowhere .

25:18

Can I just throw one extra thing into that list

25:20

, because I think that was a fantastic list and that's exactly

25:22

what needs doing . But the other thing I'd like to throw in there

25:24

is asbestos , and I shamefully

25:27

know very little about asbestos , but I was in an event

25:29

on Friday about education and we were

25:31

talking about indoor air quality

25:33

, climate change and asbestos relating to schools

25:36

, and I think that you know asbestos fine

25:38

particles that can be breathed into your lungs

25:41

can cause major problems and

25:43

lung cancer and mesothelioma , and

25:45

so I think actually bringing all those things together

25:47

, as you say , natalie , and deal

25:50

with it in a systemic way is really important

25:52

.

25:55

Yeah , I mean I don't want to agree

25:57

with everybody , but of course I do . I

25:59

think this relates back to Simon's

26:01

original point about a

26:03

lot of the evidence is

26:06

already there for action , which I think is something

26:08

that we can be optimistic about . I

26:10

mean , four years ago , the

26:13

National Institution for Clinical

26:16

Excellence released a really informative

26:18

report on the roles and

26:20

responsibilities of different sectors

26:22

in improving indoor air quality at home

26:24

, and this is everybody from environmental

26:27

health practitioners to housing associations

26:30

, to architects , to healthcare

26:32

professionals , to building control staff . So

26:34

if we can find

26:36

the right sort of venue

26:39

to house all of this information

26:41

under a single body , whether that's a government

26:43

department or something an an NGO

26:46

which is putting pressure on those making policy

26:48

, I think that would be really helpful . But , echoing

26:51

Baroness Bennett's point , this is a system

26:53

change . This is a system

26:55

change problem that's required .

26:58

I think we've seen the needle quite

27:00

rightly move , particularly in social

27:02

housing , from this lifestyle

27:06

, blaming culture of poor air quality

27:09

outcomes to taking some responsibility

27:11

. There can be some argument

27:13

. I think it's fair to say that that needle

27:16

can move too far . The other direction

27:18

, and the risk there or in thereof

27:20

, is that we take away agency

27:23

from people to have an impact on their

27:25

own outcomes . And

27:27

I think that that stands in all

27:29

walks of life , whether that's workplace

27:31

or housing or the private sector . And

27:35

one of the things I don't

27:37

think we do very well is

27:39

communicate risk , and

27:42

air quality has suffered very badly

27:44

over , particularly indoor air quality

27:46

, in how we communicate this risk

27:48

, because it is so esoteric and chronic

27:50

and long-term often that we

27:53

struggle to find ways to meaningfully

27:55

project that risk

27:57

to people . And I wonder if the panel

27:59

had any thoughts on that

28:02

and whether there's something that we

28:04

could learn from other sectors that have walked

28:06

that path for many years

28:09

, like smoking campaigns

28:11

and other health campaigns , that have had

28:13

to learn how to communicate

28:15

these long-term , chronic

28:17

risks where people have to change habits

28:20

and behaviors and you know

28:22

structures have to build around it to

28:24

improve outcomes let

28:26

me , let me swallow that bullet first .

28:28

as always , simon asked the really tricky questions

28:30

, but it's . It is a key one , I

28:32

think , when , when we refer to system change

28:35

which is firmly the approach I

28:37

believe is required because it we

28:40

need consolidated action across many

28:42

different sectors of society that

28:44

is not saying that it's this out

28:48

there in the sky thing that's going to happen

28:50

, which is going to just magically inform change

28:52

. I think part of that system change

28:55

is both providing actionable

28:57

information to people so they can make

28:59

changes . But I find the concept

29:02

, which comes from the environmental

29:05

justice literature , of capability

29:07

really important , which means

29:09

I still think you can be placing the onus

29:11

on those with more power

29:13

to take a greater share in mitigating

29:16

the problem , but making

29:18

sure people have the right information so that

29:20

they can make changes . But those changes

29:23

will be firmly anchored on what

29:25

changes people can actually make . So

29:27

we can talk until

29:30

the cows come home about changing policy

29:32

, but unless that policy is anchored

29:34

in the real-world experience of different

29:36

vulnerable groups in different housing

29:39

situations , without

29:41

the monitoring enforcement in place at

29:43

a local level , really it will be change

29:45

on paper rather than change in the real world yeah

29:49

, um , and just I think that

29:51

we also need to be

29:53

really careful about not

29:56

thinking about like on the back

29:58

of the fag packet thing .

29:59

You know , like air quality

30:01

slowly kills you . You

30:04

know we need to be really , really careful

30:06

that we aren't raising

30:09

awareness of people and not giving

30:11

them any solutions . And I think

30:13

that's a really important ethical issue . If you're

30:15

thinking , if you're talking about , you know saying

30:17

like , if you're next to this busy road in

30:19

central London , you know , you know there's

30:21

that thing about children in Hackney

30:23

having much smaller lungs than in other

30:26

areas . You know , what

30:28

are you going to do about that ? Like , are

30:31

you going to ? How are you and your family

30:33

all going to move somewhere else ? I

30:35

mean , it's just so . I think we need to be really careful

30:37

, as Douglas says , about , like , what is a

30:39

systemic thing that somebody

30:42

else needs to solve ? And then what are things that

30:44

you as an individual could do ? So , for example

30:46

, thinking back to the my stove and

30:48

the ventilation , you know , as you're cooking thing , you

30:50

know , is there a some

30:52

sort of thing that you can get in your head where it's like if

30:55

x , then y , so if I

30:57

turn my hob on , then I

30:59

also turn my ventilation cooker extractor

31:02

fan on , after having checked that it actually

31:04

is extracting somewhere , not just back into my

31:06

kitchen , which is a problem , but you know so

31:08

. So there are . There will be things that people can

31:10

do , like can you walk

31:12

or cycle a different way to work , for example , and

31:15

that's on slower , like quieter streets , or

31:17

can you take a different , different route , or can

31:20

you go slightly later in the day ? Are there things

31:22

you can do ? But also , but I think

31:24

we have a really strong moral responsibility

31:26

not to raise awareness of

31:29

issue and then not give

31:31

people any like solutions , actionable

31:33

solutions it's a really good

31:35

point .

31:36

Um , building on that as well . Um

31:39

, I suppose who the message comes

31:41

from is really important . I know

31:43

, know , global Action Plan is supporting

31:45

air quality and health projects , with

31:49

healthcare champions who would be championing cleaner

31:51

and providing actionable solutions

31:53

to their patients in

31:56

case of any potential issues , for example

31:58

, using a gas cooker without appropriate ventilation

32:00

, and

32:03

there's a lot of responsible

32:05

authorities like fire

32:07

workers , gas engineers

32:09

, for example , who have a role to play and

32:12

you know , ought to be communicating the risks is

32:15

it's one thing for it to come from

32:17

a council , but councils have been communicating

32:19

about wood burning stoves for

32:21

a long time now and I I think

32:23

sales are only increasing , unfortunately

32:25

. So you know it needs to be really a cross-sector

32:27

effort .

32:28

Just , I mean , I talked about bringing all the different

32:31

air quality issues together . I

32:33

think there's also something and this is a really big

32:35

job of work but again , looking at joining with others

32:37

, taking the public health approach

32:40

to health , rather than saying , well

32:42

, you know , we actually

32:44

have a terrible level of health , we have to fund the NHS

32:46

to fix it . But rather than just saying

32:48

wait till you get ill and then the

32:50

NHS will fix you , get

32:53

that public health message in the broader sense

32:55

out more to say that we want to keep

32:57

people healthy and that we're not doing

32:59

that . Now there's a temptation

33:01

I mean , I was on a session this morning talking

33:04

about gene editing you know magic bullet

33:06

solutions to food security , um

33:08

, and you know the idea that , well , you know

33:10

lung cancer , well , we're going to find

33:12

you know the magic drug that's going to fix the problem

33:14

and that will solve all the problems . Um

33:17

, and so people feel like

33:19

you know it's up to someone else's job , someone else's responsibility

33:21

and there's nothing I can do about it

33:23

, and I guess I have to wait until I get sick . So

33:26

, really addressing bringing a public health

33:28

perspective to everything that the government

33:30

does , everything that organisations

33:32

, councils , everybody does , bringing that perspective

33:34

in and helping people to see that you

33:36

know we need a society that's healthy .

33:40

Yeah , I just wanted to come in on the public health side of things

33:42

. I think there's a real opportunity for some ambition

33:45

, policy and action there . There have been

33:47

a number of small trials looking

33:50

at social prescription

33:52

for indoor air quality and

33:55

interventions in different housing

33:57

. So the GP taking a social

33:59

determinants of health type role to

34:02

actually , as you say , tackle

34:04

the causes of poor health

34:06

rather than fix them at the end of the pipeline

34:09

.

34:10

And just to add to that , I think often

34:13

the things that are good for your health

34:15

are also going to be good

34:17

for , for example , reducing carbon

34:20

emissions and reducing air pollution

34:22

. So , for example , encouraging people

34:24

to walk and cycle or other forms

34:26

of active travel rather than driving

34:29

is better for them . It makes

34:31

them more resilient , so it makes them healthier

34:34

, which means that if they do live

34:36

in an area of poor air quality , actually they're going

34:38

to be able to be more resilient to that

34:40

, but also obviously that's a lower carbon option

34:43

.

34:43

I can just add to that I don't know whether

34:46

we're counting inside cars as indoor , but

34:48

I think there's been nothing like enough publicity

34:50

on the fact that you know we worry about air

34:52

pollution when you're walking on a busy road but actually

34:54

on average inside cars

34:57

is quite as bad as it is on the pavement , and

34:59

that's a very little known fact . A number

35:01

of people I've said that to and they've sort of gone

35:03

. What really ?

35:09

And you know that's also a workplace health and safety issue , because a vehicle is what to people's

35:11

workplace ? Yeah , really important point . I know , for example , paramedic

35:13

services that have been investigating exposure

35:15

to carbon monoxide found that the gravest

35:17

exposure is just sitting in their cars

35:20

waiting to ambulances

35:22

, waiting to go off to attend to a scene . Doug

35:25

, do you want to ?

35:25

I'll just chip in on that point . I've done quite a lot

35:27

of work looking at vehicle interior air

35:29

quality and you're quite right that the

35:31

same sorts of principles for residential

35:34

indoor air quality apply . Apart from , the air

35:36

intake is directly behind

35:38

the tailpipe of the car . In front Maybe

35:41

the tailpipe's cleaning up , but it's going to be tyre

35:43

wear and brake wear now , and

35:50

the problem that I am seeing is that it is as you might imagine . It's

35:52

the luxury car manufacturers that are taking this up to begin with

35:54

as a new value proposition they can have

35:57

of a clean air bubble driving through

35:59

a dirty urban environment which is

36:01

just going to widen health

36:03

inequalities .

36:05

I think the point on active travel you know that

36:07

obviously unlocking co-benefits for air

36:09

quality is really important to emphasize . Um

36:11

, a very popular policy

36:13

across manifestos is

36:16

a drive to insulate homes , but

36:18

I haven't yet spotted

36:20

the necessary qualification

36:23

that indoor air quality must be preserved

36:26

and and , natalie , you know the green party

36:28

has got a great commitment around insulating homes

36:30

but also , you know , great focus on clean air

36:32

. Is that something that , um , you've

36:35

considered kind of policy solutions around

36:37

?

36:38

very much so . One of the things I point to

36:40

is , of course we have an enormous skills

36:42

issue and you know I can point to this

36:44

personally myself . I was trying to insulate

36:47

a terrace in Sheffield , got you know

36:49

a nice builder who had actually been

36:52

a Green Party council candidate as well , but

36:54

it was obvious that she didn't really have the skills and

36:57

the knowledge to know how to do the insulation

36:59

. And I know subsequently , because I pushed

37:01

her to do it , she's gone off and done a course about it . But

37:05

one of the things you'll see actually in our manifesto and in our papers around it

37:07

is we've got a huge skills training job

37:10

and you know we can talk about getting the right ventilation

37:12

, but we've got to have you know , on the individual level

37:14

of the individual terrace in Sheffield we need

37:16

a person doing the building work who has

37:18

sufficient knowledge and skills to be

37:20

able to deliver the clean air indoors

37:22

. And one of the reasons why we've

37:25

, in some ways , we're doing a lot

37:27

in the first five years in our

37:29

plans in the manifesto , but we're also acknowledging

37:31

that that's actually essentially a training period

37:33

to really scale up after that , because

37:35

that skills gap is just a huge

37:38

problem .

37:40

I'd like to make a point there . Actually and I think this

37:44

is a really good example of not

37:47

having a central organisation

37:49

looking at something like air quality One

37:51

of the challenges ventilation and air quality

37:53

has always had within the built environment is

37:56

it tends to sit within the energy part

37:58

of the built environment and unfortunately

38:01

, nothing beats no ventilation for

38:03

energy efficiency and unfortunately

38:06

, nothing beats no ventilation for energy efficiency . So

38:15

we've always had this challenge that providing adequate ventilation

38:17

is seen as an energy problem rather than a health benefit . And the second point I'd

38:19

like to make on that is that the UK isn't alone in

38:21

this , but we have a massive

38:23

responsibility and accountability

38:26

problem . Um , the

38:28

the fact of the matter is is very

38:31

large swathes of our built environment

38:34

are simply not ventilating adequately

38:36

, whether that's in the

38:38

new build projects that we take

38:40

on or the existing , the existing

38:42

buildings being run to failure . Best

38:46

estimates is somewhere between a half

38:48

and three quarters of all buildings

38:51

across sectors are underventilated

38:53

, even to minimum standards . So

38:55

one of the policy areas

38:58

that can be brought to bear is to start

39:00

to look at that collective accountability

39:02

, that this is a consumer

39:05

protection problem , this is a public

39:08

health problem and we're not

39:10

getting what we're paying for , quite

39:13

simply so there's enormous

39:15

gains can be made simply

39:17

by doing what we're supposed to have done

39:20

in the first place . This doesn't necessarily

39:22

even require any innovation

39:25

. This is about simply getting

39:27

what we're supposed to have got in the first

39:29

place and people being held accountable

39:31

for that , and that's something

39:34

that much more robust policy could

39:36

really bring to bear . Many

39:38

countries throughout the European Union

39:41

, for example , are starting to bring

39:43

in third party independent inspection

39:45

of ventilation systems both across residential

39:48

and non-residential sectors

39:50

, taking it out of the hands of the

39:52

people that are installing the products

39:54

and bringing third parties into

39:57

the picture to start stamping

39:59

and approving the performance of the

40:01

spaces that we occupy , because

40:03

, whether we like it or not , ventilation

40:06

is one of the critical pillars in

40:08

the outcomes of our built environment

40:11

, and at the moment , we simply do not get that

40:13

right enough thanks

40:15

.

40:15

I mean international comparisons is a really important

40:17

point and I wonder if anyone can bring

40:20

examples of other

40:22

countries and leading the way on

40:25

indoor air quality or , say , related issues

40:27

such as housing health and safety

40:29

or clean air more generally .

40:32

I guess an example is from I

40:35

believe it's Japan which during

40:37

the pandemic , had lots , exactly as

40:39

Natalie was describing in the opening statement

40:41

, as those kind of display screens showing

40:44

the real time carbon dioxide levels , and

40:46

carbon dioxide is important here

40:48

because it's a proxy for ventilation

40:50

. So if you have high carbon dioxide

40:53

levels , then that shows that you've got lots of

40:55

rebreathe there and therefore you've got poor

40:57

ventilation . And I do think

40:59

countries like Germany as well

41:01

, and Belgium during the pandemic

41:03

, had lots of kind of public awareness

41:05

campaigns around this , which was really important . So

41:08

I do think we can learn from those things , because I

41:10

think if people start seeing

41:12

these things around , then it becomes

41:14

a bit more part of kind of the everyday

41:16

knowledge and oh , okay , yeah , that there is

41:18

that . Counter to that , though , I

41:20

would say there also needs to be education

41:22

alongside that . So an example

41:25

of perhaps not doing this very

41:27

well is , during the pandemic , the government sent out

41:29

co2 monitors to every

41:31

single school , every single classroom

41:33

, I think , across the uk , um , and

41:36

many of them literally sat

41:38

in a box and never , ever got opened , and

41:41

that's because they didn't bother to tell schools

41:43

that they were coming and what they were for and what

41:45

they were meant to do with them . Some of them made beeping noises

41:48

, which obviously disrupted learning . So I think we also

41:50

need to learn from what we've done

41:52

badly as well .

41:54

Some of those were um were

41:57

opened and then produced terrifying

41:59

readings . Um , there wasn't any

42:01

advice on what to do with . Even if you'd gone to the

42:03

effort of trying , you know , opening monitors , getting the

42:05

reading , having the beating people

42:08

, still had no real guidance or no real capacity

42:10

, no real resources to do anything about

42:12

it absolutely , and so on this , the

42:15

sammy project that I mentioned earlier , which is working

42:17

with schools .

42:18

One of the first things we did is held like

42:20

co-design workshops with schools and talk to them

42:22

about like you had these CO2 monitors

42:24

before , tell us about how that

42:26

worked . Didn't work very well , you

42:29

know . Children were scared by them , et cetera , et cetera

42:31

. So we embedded that kind of like knowledge

42:33

within what we've made , which is a web app where

42:35

they get to see their data in real time

42:37

from their classrooms but , really importantly

42:40

, are supported to take action

42:42

to improve it . So what does this number mean

42:44

in the context of other numbers

42:46

that I might be seeing ? And then what , as I

42:49

, as a classroom teacher , or even as a student

42:51

, what can I actually do here , which

42:53

I think is really important ? I think you're absolutely

42:55

spot on . That was the piece that was missing

42:58

. They were like so it's telling me , I've got

43:00

2000 ppm . What

43:03

do I do ? Like ? What do I do now ?

43:07

just just a quick one on that . When

43:09

it comes to best practice , I think there's many

43:12

examples across Europe

43:14

and further afield of people taking practical

43:17

steps to start providing some independence

43:19

and assurance and the performance of systems

43:22

that are installed into the built environment , and

43:24

we can reel off country

43:27

after country that have bit the bullet

43:29

and started to introduce third-party

43:31

oversight of some description into the

43:33

quality of the ventilation systems that they're getting

43:35

and that is going on around us

43:37

. And if the UK is not careful

43:39

, it's going to be left behind as an

43:42

industry that still doesn't properly police

43:44

and provide building control to

43:46

ventilation systems , and I think that

43:49

would be a shame with the potential that

43:51

the UK has . My

43:53

second point on the technology and

43:55

this is something I think governments

43:58

need to be aware of is , whether

44:00

we like it or not , probably within

44:02

the decade we will be

44:05

judged by the ongoing performances

44:07

of the spaces that we occupy . The

44:09

rollout and proliferation of sensors

44:11

that are capable of telling us how our spaces

44:14

perform is

44:16

going on around us , whether we like it or

44:18

not , not just in academic circles

44:20

, but in commercial sectors . You look at

44:22

the housing sector , for example . Hundreds

44:25

of thousands of properties now have

44:27

environmental sensors in them that

44:29

are providing a value proposition

44:32

in their own right , on

44:34

looking at things like fuel poverty and

44:36

void risk and condensation risk

44:38

and ventilation performance and energy performance

44:41

, and the list goes on and on

44:43

. And if we're not careful , we

44:46

find ourselves in a position that

44:48

if we can't stand over performance

44:50

, we have to start answering questions

44:53

on the ongoing performance

44:55

of the spaces that we occupy , and

44:57

I can tell you they're very uncomfortable questions

45:00

to be asked , answering on the back foot

45:02

. Just project

45:04

for a moment that um

45:07

teaching unions

45:09

decide to start looking at the data

45:11

that their members have to work

45:14

in and start using that data

45:16

to support strike

45:18

action , and I think you could very quickly

45:20

project how uncomfortable that

45:23

kind of space we can be in , in

45:25

full knowledge that we know we're not

45:27

getting a lot of academic

45:29

environments right . How

45:31

would we handle that ? And if that's being

45:34

presented with data

45:36

data , it becomes a much more

45:38

difficult thing to navigate and

45:40

I think that's something we need to be aware of

45:42

that .

45:42

The world is moving on around

45:44

us and we need to keep up

45:46

I just wanted to mention

45:49

one specific international

45:51

learning I think we could draw on , and it was

45:53

hinted at earlier . France

45:55

has had an indoor air quality observatory

45:58

for more than 20 years , running

46:01

national campaigns to measure indoor

46:03

air quality in homes , school

46:05

offices , all the sort of indoor environments

46:08

that you could imagine , and this

46:10

is really important because currently

46:12

a lot of the work that

46:14

goes on in academia and in industry it's

46:16

siloed in individual projects measuring

46:18

different components of

46:20

indoor air pollution in different ways

46:22

, which makes getting a really

46:25

comprehensive picture of what the indoor air quality

46:27

in the UK is like very difficult

46:29

. There are individual projects which are

46:31

building up evidence things like the SAMI

46:33

project for in schools , but

46:35

there are ongoing discussions about getting

46:38

something done to replicate this in the

46:40

UK , which I think would be really helpful

46:42

. Building on Matt's initial point

46:44

, as we undergo the biggest

46:47

period of retrofit in the residential

46:49

sector , really it's an opportunity

46:52

to make sure that net zero is done in

46:54

a way which can make healthy

46:56

net zero buildings .

46:59

So I think that's a really good point and I

47:01

guess a couple of points that the other panellists have

47:03

mentioned have spoken to the role

47:05

of the private sector in delivering

47:07

this transition and

47:10

, to be honest with you , it's not something I know lots about . This

47:14

is a bit of an earlier stage of work for us . It's not

47:16

something I know lots about . This is a bit of an earlier stage

47:18

of work for us , but we see from our work on construction

47:20

and outdoor air pollution , kind of there are skills

47:22

gaps , there are knowledge gaps within the industry . There's more

47:24

of a focus on climate change than there is air

47:27

pollution . You know , simon

47:29

mentioned the need for greater accountability , which

47:32

I can well believe . Natalie mentioned skills

47:34

. I'd be interested

47:36

in understanding what it is , what

47:38

it is going to take to get the sort of private

47:41

sector pointed in the right

47:43

direction .

47:44

That's a good point . I mean I can point to

47:46

an example the gas distribution

47:49

networks received an allowance

47:51

from the government to improve

47:53

or to address fuel poverty and

47:55

risk of carbon monoxide and do a lot of good work

47:58

to upskill

48:00

the workforce , to make sure that

48:02

homes and

48:04

residents are properly protected against carbon monoxide

48:06

, and I think that could be quite

48:08

a blueprint potentially for the wider

48:11

work , wider involvement of

48:13

the industry in the fight against

48:15

air quality . It's been very much focused on

48:18

carbon monoxide , but I think there are good lessons

48:20

of how they partner with , for example , like healthcare

48:22

professionals , fire and rescue services

48:24

that I

48:26

think the government can pick up as

48:29

a kind of blueprint for further work

48:32

. I'm just conscious of time

48:34

, but I think the

48:36

point around better systematic air

48:39

quality monitoring is a really important one and

48:42

I think there's an interesting lesson from

48:44

the Welsh government , who this year introduced

48:46

an Air Quality Act . They

48:48

didn't introduce statutory

48:51

targets for all

48:54

of the WHO-recognised

48:56

air pollutants because of this lack of data

48:58

, but we're very much committed

49:01

to gathering more data . So you

49:03

know , I wonder , matt , you mentioned , you know

49:05

, introducing statutory targets in

49:08

line with the World Health Organisation , but

49:10

what kind of reflections are of the

49:12

feasibility of that sort of further

49:15

reaching legislation than what's happened in

49:17

Wales , given the kind of data

49:19

picture we have now yeah

49:22

, um , and I think my understanding

49:24

, because we spoke to the um , the

49:28

, the public health team there , and I think they are sort of

49:30

working out if there is a way of including it

49:32

feasibly in the future of particulate matter

49:34

.

49:34

But , um , yeah

49:37

, it's , I think . I think we have

49:39

to . I think we have to sort of work

49:41

to increase um , you know , available

49:43

data in order to be able to hold ourselves accountable

49:46

, because without , without that , we don't know what

49:49

progress we're making . I think . I think , um

49:51

, in other areas , it's

49:53

, it's , it's more We've seen huge

49:55

investment in air quality monitoring

49:58

networks in London . It's

50:00

, you know , I don't think this is a sort of challenge

50:02

that's beyond

50:05

our capabilities and

50:07

I think sort of more

50:09

than that . It's

50:11

the level of ambition

50:13

that we're sort of baking into our policies and our

50:15

and our goals . That's really . That's

50:17

really important . We've seen it , you know , there are

50:19

various councils within london that have committed to

50:22

who guidelines

50:24

, um , and the

50:26

incentives that sits that sets

50:28

within the wider council and the leadership

50:30

that goes alongside that is really important

50:32

to driving action further , further down

50:35

within organizations . So , um

50:37

, and I think , environment

50:39

, the new national

50:43

guidelines that we introduced

50:45

in 2021 , I think

50:47

weren't as ambitious as we would have

50:50

liked in the UK . So I do

50:52

think there's a feasibility of monitoring

50:54

question , but I also do think that

50:56

it can really help drive helpful incentives

50:58

in a broader system .

51:00

What gives me hope is that often

51:03

, actually both around kind of net

51:05

zero stuff and around air quality , is

51:07

that private sector are moving forwards on this

51:09

, regardless of what governments are saying

51:11

they should do . And I think you know

51:13

we've got a huge number of um companies

51:16

who are doing air quality monitoring , who

51:18

are doing um education

51:20

work um , that's fantastic

51:23

. But we also have companies who are

51:25

just looking at air pollution

51:27

that happens across their supply chains

51:29

, and sei have been doing some work with ikea , um

51:32

, for example , and a group called the Alliance

51:34

for Clean Air . So Alliance for

51:36

Clean Air is 16 enormous companies

51:38

and global companies who

51:40

are trying to improve

51:43

their air quality and looking at where are

51:45

the air pollution emissions across the whole

51:47

of our supply chains and then working to improve

51:49

it . And so I feel like there's definitely

51:52

a role for government legislation and we talked

51:54

about that before , but actually I feel like the

51:56

private sector are just

51:58

going to do some of this anyway

52:01

, like I think that people are realising that this

52:03

is a major human health problem

52:06

and even if we're not

52:08

going to have legislation , we're going to take action

52:10

to address it . So I would urge people to have a look at the Alliance

52:12

for Clean Air and the stuff they're doing . I

52:14

think it's really interesting .

52:16

I'd agree with that . But I think one of the things to focus

52:18

on and an issue that I've particularly been working on

52:20

, which is not exactly always indoor

52:22

air quality , but

52:26

silicosis , which is a disease that's

52:28

led Australia to

52:30

ban certain sorts of kitchen worktops because

52:33

basically a significant number of their

52:35

masons have come down with

52:37

lung diseases , particularly potentially

52:40

deadly lung diseases , certainly disabling lung

52:42

diseases . And so

52:44

much of our business sector , private

52:46

sector , is actually small companies

52:48

, small and medium enterprises , and

52:50

it's so much harder for them to

52:53

put the resources in , to have the knowledge of all

52:55

the thousands and thousands of other things they've got to worry about

52:57

. So , yes , big

53:00

companies can take action , but

53:02

actually how do we support the small and medium enterprise

53:04

sector , which is so much

53:06

of our economy , so much of our society , so

53:08

much of the spaces we spend so much time in

53:10

RSMEs , and

53:12

it's difficult to expect them to do a great deal without

53:14

a lot of support .

53:24

An issue we've seen with the manifestos by the Green Party is the presence

53:26

of air quality in the current debate . It's seen as maybe too contentious , probably

53:28

around the difficult expansion

53:30

of the ULAs , to

53:33

include as a policy priority in

53:35

the manifestos . To include as a policy priority

53:37

in the manifestos . I

53:39

wonder if people can share reflections on how we make sure that government can prioritise this

53:42

. Who in the next government should be leading

53:44

on this , whether it's a particular minister named

53:46

for IAQ or a particular

53:48

department that has kind of oversight

53:51

of the broad issue as

53:53

other departments work together or

53:56

other points . And many thanks , natalie

53:58

, for joining .

54:00

I mean , I think it should be DEFRA , because

54:03

DEFRA already have really

54:05

great outdoor monitoring stations

54:07

we've got . We are very , very intensely

54:09

monitored in the UK and , matt , you know you

54:11

said about we need more data and

54:13

I think , in

54:15

a way , we need more data because it helps people

54:18

raise awareness of what the air quality

54:20

is actually where they are , but also we

54:22

know what is . We

54:25

know that we have a poor air quality

54:27

um in many of our spaces and

54:29

we know that it's just that we need to take

54:31

action . So I sort of feel like , um

54:34

, if a government , if there were a government

54:36

department who were responsible for it which would be amazing

54:38

I think it might be sensible to incorporate

54:41

it into DEFRA's remit , given that they cover outdoor

54:43

air quality health

54:56

inequalities more broadly .

54:57

We're hearing reports that you know different parties might organize so the civil

54:59

service slightly differently , and have you know um cross-departmental working

55:01

groups on health inequalities ? Or you know , if

55:03

it's labor , that there are various missions , so

55:05

, um , it may be that there's a

55:07

sort of opportunity to embed indoor air quality

55:10

within that sort of broader crossed up , yeah

55:12

, departmental way of working yeah

55:15

, I .

55:15

I think , whatever happens , we

55:18

have to take control of our built environment

55:20

, and that's going to require some accountability

55:23

and policing of that sector . It has

55:25

not performed , uh for too

55:27

long . Um , and I'll

55:30

make the point again , we simply are not

55:32

getting value for money . We're not getting what

55:34

we pay for when it comes to the built environment

55:36

, and it's such a critical factor in

55:39

air quality outcomes . Um

55:41

, and the second and last point I'll

55:43

make on that is I don't know

55:45

how much clearer evidence we need

55:47

on the value of getting this right

55:49

and , however , whatever

55:52

flavor this ends up being , I

55:55

think the potential return

55:57

on investment is so enormous

55:59

that something

56:02

should be done . The

56:04

, the value of getting this right , uh

56:06

, for all of us is so important that

56:09

, um , whether it's a department

56:11

, whether it's a uh , an indoor

56:13

air quality observatory , I think

56:15

anything like that is going to reap

56:17

rewards that would

56:19

pay for itself many , many times over

56:21

I can care .

56:23

Thanks so much to the panel for joining

56:25

um . We'll be busy , you

56:28

know , comms wise over this week around clean air day

56:30

and , yes

56:32

, very much looking forward to the next government and working

56:34

with you all and hopefully a very enthusiastic

56:38

and fresh-faced crop of new MPs

56:40

and obviously our existing supporters , like Baroness

56:42

and Natalie Bennett , to actually drive through

56:44

policy change .

56:46

I think there were some great ideas there and

56:48

, no doubt , future podcast guests

56:50

. I hope you enjoyed that Before

56:53

you go . Coming up next week

56:55

on the podcast , we have Sotirius

56:57

papathanasu , one of the

57:00

original bloggers on air quality

57:02

and someone I have been following for

57:04

years . We talk about how

57:06

the view on air quality has changed

57:09

, particulate matter and

57:11

much more . This

57:13

show was sponsored by 21

57:15

Degrees , aeco , ultra

57:18

, protect and Imbiote . All

57:20

can be found and much more at airqualitymattersnet

57:23

. Thanks for listening . I'm Simon

57:25

Jones and this is Air

57:27

Quality Matters . Thank

57:36

you .