0:00

Doubt has been around for a

0:02

really long time and

0:04

for a good reason. A

0:07

lion seeing a herd of antelope

0:10

has to decide which antelope

0:12

to chase down. He

0:14

doesn't get very many chances to exert

0:17

that much energy to find dinner tonight.

0:20

Some of the antelope start jumping up

0:23

and down. They're pranking, displaying

0:25

for the lion that they've got so

0:27

much energy to spare. They're

0:30

happy to waste it in a silly dance

0:32

for him. Maybe they're

0:34

bluffing. Maybe they're not. Hey,

0:38

it's Aurov. And this

0:40

is a special archived episode of

0:42

Akimbo. Doubt

0:48

goes back to the primordial soup. If

0:51

you need to eat, you need to find

0:53

something to eat. And if you make a

0:55

mistake, you might not get fed. But

0:57

doubt gets multiplied when we start

1:00

adding humans to the mix. When

1:03

we lived in small groups, nomadic

1:05

tribes, we didn't see

1:08

very many strangers. As

1:10

a result, trust was

1:12

inevitable because you were surrounded by

1:15

people for the long haul. It

1:18

became pretty clear to human beings

1:20

early on in our consciousness that

1:23

if you double-cross someone today, they're

1:26

more likely to doubt you tomorrow.

1:29

And so we end up with this

1:31

bias toward good behavior to

1:34

the people that we're in intimate contact

1:36

with. This

1:39

explains the biblical prohibition

1:41

against usury, against charging

1:43

interest to someone in

1:45

the tribe. If someone

1:47

is in your circle, your

1:50

sister, your friend, your neighbor,

1:53

of course you don't charge them interest.

1:55

Because you know you're going to get

1:57

paid back. I loaned you those

1:59

four days. Seeds He after your tree

2:01

grows I'll get those four seats back.

2:04

Were in it together. For. The

2:06

long haul. Or the other

2:08

hand, you are welcome. To

2:10

charge interest or to rip people

2:12

off who weren't from your circle.

2:15

Buyer. Beware, the rules

2:17

were different for outsiders.

2:21

As. Maternity showed up a brought

2:23

with it a few things. The.

2:25

First thing was we figured out

2:27

how to industrialized debt. The

2:30

idea that someone could produce things

2:32

of value by borrowing something. And

2:35

then later paying back. But that

2:37

brings back doubt. Will they pay

2:39

me back? How do I am

2:41

Force Systems So they will pay

2:43

me back? How do I make

2:45

a profit from people? Pay me

2:47

back? And is David Gregory pointed

2:49

out, it's that debt. That.

2:51

Led to the creation of money. Money.

2:55

Makes. It way easier to

2:57

enforce and to trade debt.

3:00

That's why we did it. Not the someone has a

3:02

deer that they want to trade for a chicken in.

3:04

they need some eggs and all that stuff about murder.

3:06

We. Did It. Because. It's

3:09

debt. And don't. Go

3:11

right next to each other. But

3:14

once we had money. We. Had

3:16

a to people. That.

3:18

Money. Could be trusted

3:20

because all it was was Iraq

3:23

all it was was a carry

3:25

cell. Or. A coin.

3:28

The. Coins started to have things printed

3:30

on them. So that

3:32

people would come to believe. That.

3:35

They were real. The

3:37

coins started to have edges neural

3:39

doll the way around them because

3:42

those edges were hard to reproduce.

3:44

Therefore, you couldn't save off some

3:46

of the precious metal. Modernity.

3:49

Involved coming up with a way. To

3:52

trust currency because currency was a

3:55

way of treating debt and debt.

3:57

Was. a way of figuring out how to

4:00

create more value. The

4:02

other thing that the modern age brought with

4:04

it was the

4:06

traveling salesperson. A

4:08

stranger came to town. How

4:12

to trust the stranger? Well

4:14

largely we didn't. I've

4:17

been canvassing in New Hampshire and

4:20

one thing I noticed in some of

4:22

the towns is that houses don't have

4:25

doorbells. Why is that?

4:27

Well, if you're a friend, come on

4:29

in. And if you're not, go

4:32

away. The idea

4:34

that the outsider is welcome

4:37

is hard to swallow because

4:39

where is the trust? How do I

4:41

know I won't get ripped

4:43

off? How do I know I won't take

4:46

a patent medicine that makes me sick? When

4:50

LL Bean launched his

4:52

clothing company, he

4:54

picked a particularly difficult group to

4:56

sell to at first. He

4:59

picked Hunters in Maine. He began

5:01

by buying the list of all the

5:03

hunters in Maine who had a license

5:05

from the state and he

5:08

sent them a small catalog with his boots

5:10

listed for sale. But right

5:12

there in the very first catalog it said, and they

5:15

are guaranteed forever, if they

5:18

ever fail to work, I

5:20

will give you all of your money back. And there

5:23

are stories, some of which might even be

5:25

true, of college students hard up

5:27

for money taking five-year-old

5:30

tinos, ripped, torn,

5:32

stained, and mailing them back

5:34

to get a refund. LL

5:36

Bean at some level really likes this

5:39

because if you can rip off

5:41

LL Bean or Zappos or some

5:43

other store with an aggressive guarantee

5:46

you're likely to tell your friends. And

5:49

when you tell your friends, trust

5:51

grows. The

5:53

world we live in now is

5:55

filled with trust overcoming

5:58

doubt. because we

6:01

know we have to trust someone. And

6:04

this is a brief podcast about

6:07

the benefit of that doubt. Who

6:10

gets it and why do they get

6:12

it? You're

6:14

walking down the street and you bump

6:16

into Bill Murray and George Clooney. They're

6:19

out for a night on the town. And

6:22

Bill turns to you and says, hey, can

6:24

I borrow 20 bucks? I'll pay

6:26

you back. Just give me your email address.

6:29

Would you loan him the money? Probably

6:33

because he's a celebrity. Because

6:35

in our culture, we've decided that at

6:38

some level, we can

6:40

trust celebrities. Another

6:42

example, Sarah Jones, the Tony

6:44

award-winning playwright, is

6:47

walking from her hotel to a

6:49

studio in Los Angeles to film

6:51

a TV pilot. She's walking

6:53

with a friend. Sarah Jones, if

6:56

you're not familiar with her work, is

6:58

a 30-something black woman. She's

7:01

walking down the street with her

7:03

friend and she gets pulled over by

7:05

two LAPD cops who are

7:08

surprised to see anyone walking in

7:10

this part of Los Angeles. And

7:12

on high alert, because the two

7:15

people they see walking are young, attractive

7:17

black women. So they

7:19

proceed to arrest them for

7:22

prostitution. As they

7:24

come towards Sarah, she picks up her phone

7:27

and in a perfect British accent... I

7:36

should tell you that when I was asked to be

7:38

here, I thought to myself, well, it's

7:41

Ted. And these Tedsters are,

7:43

you know, as innocent

7:45

as that name sounds. These are the philanthropists

7:48

and artists and scientists

7:51

who sort of shape our world.

7:53

And what could I possibly have to say

7:55

that's been distinguished enough to justify my participation

7:57

in something like that? a

8:00

really civilized sounding British accent might

8:02

help things a bit. And then I thought, no,

8:04

no, you know, I really, I should just get

8:07

up there and be myself and, and

8:09

just talk the way I really talk.

8:11

Because after all, this is

8:14

the great unveiling. And so I thought I'd come

8:16

up here and unveil my real voice to you.

8:19

Although many of you already know that I do

8:21

speak the Queen's English because I am from Queens,

8:23

New York. It's

8:25

an imaginary phone call in

8:28

which it sounds like she's talking to her

8:30

boss and that she is the nanny. The

8:33

cops hear the British accent, look

8:35

at her, look at her confidence, give

8:38

her the benefit of the doubt, which

8:41

she definitely deserved and

8:44

let the two of them go. The

8:46

benefit of the doubt. Consider

8:50

for a second the case of the

8:52

appropriately named Keith Mann, M A N

8:55

N Keith, one

8:57

of three co-founders of a

8:59

startup called which see that

9:02

set out to sell outsider art joined

9:04

with Kate Dwyer and Penelope Gazin

9:07

to find funding and partners to grow

9:09

the business. What

9:11

Penelope and Kate found is that

9:13

when they sent emails to people

9:16

who they wanted to engage with, there wasn't

9:18

much of a response. But

9:20

when Keith was on the thread or

9:23

when the emails came from Keith, the

9:25

response was totally different. Well,

9:28

as you've probably guessed, there's no

9:30

such person as Keith Mann. The

9:32

two of them made him up and

9:35

the people who were giving them the cold shoulder

9:38

weren't necessarily misogynists. They weren't

9:40

necessarily people who didn't think

9:42

women deserve to run a

9:44

business or even women

9:47

are all incompetent. But

9:50

the people who gave them a cold shoulder were

9:52

sexist in the following way. They

9:55

weren't giving them the

9:57

benefit of the doubt. They were

10:00

saying to themselves.consciously perhaps I've

10:02

got enough time to interact

10:04

with two or ten or

10:06

twenty people today. People that

10:08

might be productive interactions for

10:10

my is needs. and when

10:13

I see the name Penelope

10:15

show up in my email

10:17

box. I'm just not

10:19

giving that person who the benefit of

10:21

the doubt. You. Can see

10:23

the problem here, not just for Kate

10:25

and Penelope. But. For our

10:27

culture. The problem

10:30

is that great ideas,

10:32

hard work, good work,

10:34

important connection Forward motion.

10:37

Is clearly not dependent.

10:40

On things like race, accents,

10:42

gender, nationality, it's just not.

10:44

There's no evidence to show

10:46

that it is. But.

10:49

If we are always gravitating.

10:52

Toward celebrities. Men:

10:55

White. Men: People. With

10:57

British accents, people who went to

11:00

fancy colleges. Not. A surly

11:02

good colleges, just ones with a fancy

11:04

reputation. Then we are leaving behind. All.

11:07

Of the people. Who. Could contribute

11:09

something and we are corrode in

11:11

our culture. By. Creating

11:13

an environment where those people.

11:16

Aren't. On the road to

11:18

for selling their magic, their dreams,

11:20

their destiny of what they would

11:22

like to create. But. Once

11:24

you see it, You. Can start

11:27

to become aware of it. When

11:29

you start talking to yourself and saying

11:31

up. Will. This person is

11:33

Blake despite the fact.

11:36

That. They aren't the way I expect them to be.

11:39

You've. Just caught yourself. Giving.

11:42

The Benefit of the Doubt. For. The

11:44

wrong reason. To

11:47

lie and has to decide who to track down?

11:49

Who do we decide? To track

11:51

down, who do we decide to

11:54

trust instead of doubt? Wells.

11:56

Fargo and Equifax have both been

11:58

in the New. lately for

12:01

ripping off people of their privacy

12:03

and their money. Hundreds

12:05

of millions of dollars. Why

12:08

did people trust them? If

12:11

you move to a new town and

12:13

you need to put your money,

12:15

your hard-earned money, into a bank,

12:18

how do you pick where to put it? What

12:20

makes you trust the bank? What

12:23

exactly are the marble pillars in

12:25

the front of that building for?

12:28

Why are bank branches so

12:30

big? Why do bank branches

12:32

look different than

12:34

off-track bedding parlors or

12:36

chiropractic offices? What

12:39

they're trying to do is

12:41

earn the benefit of the doubt

12:43

because it's too expensive for any

12:46

consumer to audit all

12:48

the records of the bank. And

12:50

so we look for a shortcut because

12:53

we're afraid, because we don't want to do

12:55

the wrong thing. These

12:57

shortcuts, giving someone a

12:59

pass because they have a British accent,

13:02

failing to give someone the benefit of the doubt

13:05

because they're black, are these shortcuts helping

13:07

us get where we want as a

13:09

culture? When

13:12

you hear people talk about white

13:14

privilege or male white privilege, the

13:17

idea is very straightforward. Some

13:19

people, like me, were born

13:22

on the 95-yard line of the hundred-yard

13:24

football field, and scoring

13:26

a touchdown is nothing compared

13:28

to somebody who's had to overcome

13:31

so much inequity their whole life.

13:34

But what really makes it resonate is

13:37

if you realize that even if one

13:39

of those other people who don't look

13:41

or talk like I do went

13:44

to a fancy college, had a

13:46

different accent, there's

13:48

still the issue of the

13:50

benefit of the doubt. And

13:53

that has been the wind at

13:55

my back and the back of so many

13:57

other people for a very long time. Of

14:01

course, there are skilled

14:03

people, trustworthy people, hard-working

14:05

people who don't look

14:07

or talk like I do or maybe like

14:09

you do. But

14:11

we don't give them the benefit of

14:14

the doubt. Because

14:16

given that there are lots of choices

14:18

to make, the dominant

14:20

cultural narrative is save

14:23

time and effort, just

14:25

pick somebody who reminds you

14:28

of someone you've picked before. This

14:31

idea of the benefit of the doubt is

14:34

costing us. It's costing us

14:37

time and money for sure, but

14:39

it's also corroding who we are. Because

14:42

we are making really bad choices

14:45

about who to give this benefit to. That

14:48

we default to someone who made a lot of

14:50

money. Well, maybe they made a lot of

14:52

money in a really horrible way. We

14:54

default to people who have

14:57

certain titles or certain backgrounds.

14:59

Conmen are really good at

15:02

finding the signals that

15:05

get us to give them the

15:07

benefit of the doubt. But the

15:09

thing that makes them conmen is that

15:12

they are not trustworthy, and

15:14

that's where it comes down to. Who

15:16

will we choose to engage

15:18

with? And as we learned

15:20

from the story of Billy Bean in Moneyball, even

15:23

if you don't care about the morality of

15:26

this, there's a

15:28

huge economic incentive, a huge

15:30

cultural incentive to

15:32

find people who deserve the

15:35

benefit of the doubt and haven't gotten it. Because

15:39

they are underutilized. They

15:41

are more available to work with you. They

15:44

are more likely to show up and

15:46

give you precisely what you

15:49

need to move forward. for

16:00

a programmer and someone who's

16:02

a woman, who's young, who's

16:04

old, who doesn't match the

16:06

stereotype, shows that they have

16:09

real skills. Does that surprise you?

16:11

Well, the surprise is a symptom that

16:15

we've been trained to give the benefit of

16:17

the doubt to the wrong people,

16:20

that the tropes and the clues and the

16:22

hints that we look for are

16:24

false evidence appearing real. That

16:28

fear that we have

16:30

as we walk down a dark alley

16:32

and then realize that the person behind

16:34

us is simply trying to give

16:37

you the $20 bill that you

16:39

dropped a block ago, that

16:43

is miswiring on your part. That

16:45

is an error that corrodes

16:48

how we interact with one

16:50

another. So

16:52

I have been so fortunate for

16:55

my entire life because

16:57

the dominant narrative of who gets

17:00

the benefit of the doubt has

17:02

been on my side. But what

17:04

I have found, what we are all finding,

17:07

is that competence doesn't

17:09

care what the person

17:12

we are engaging with looks

17:14

like, talks like, or even acts like.

17:17

Competence belongs to the people who have

17:19

chosen to put the effort

17:21

into it. That the soft skills,

17:24

which I call real skills, of

17:26

honesty, integrity, effort,

17:29

humor, creativity, these

17:31

are choices. And what we have

17:33

to figure out how to do as

17:36

we rewire our culture for a new age

17:39

is how to undo all

17:42

of those signals that were backwards so

17:44

that we start giving the benefit of the

17:47

doubt to the people who

17:49

are actually doing the work to

17:51

earn it. Hi

18:03

Seth, warm greetings from your south.

18:05

Hey Seth, my name is Nick Ryan from

18:07

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hey Seth, this is Rex. Hey

18:09

Seth, hi, this is Mr. Mitchell. Hi,

18:12

this is Roberta Perry. My question is... And

18:16

that completes my question. As

18:19

you know, I love getting your questions. Send

18:21

them in. Visit akimbo.link,

18:23

that's A-K-I-M-B-O. And

18:28

click the appropriate button while you're there.

18:30

Check out the show notes. Hey Seth,

18:33

this is Chris out in Houston. My

18:36

question is, as a marketer, when

18:38

do you feel is the best

18:41

time to pitch a product or

18:43

service as a consumer? I don't

18:45

think there's ever the right time.

18:48

And a couple of examples come to

18:50

mind as far as the philosophy that

18:52

Gary Vee has with his jab,

18:55

jab, jab, right hook. As

18:58

well as occasionally you're throwing in

19:00

the alt MBA program and

19:02

various other services that you offer.

19:05

Another example comes to mind is

19:07

that I've been subscribing to an

19:09

author and a public speaker

19:12

for a while now to his public, his

19:14

weekly newsletter. And as

19:17

he gets closer to a speaking event, he starts

19:20

to send additional emails

19:22

to me about this event, which

19:24

I think starts to lose its generosity

19:26

and tends to cause me

19:30

to want to unsubscribe to

19:33

his messaging going forward. And

19:35

so I'm just curious as far as you take

19:37

in regards to when it's

19:39

the right time to be able to pitch a product

19:42

or service. Thanks for having me. You

19:44

do, Seth. There's a lot of depth and nuance

19:46

to this question. So give me a couple minutes

19:48

to unpack it. I'm going

19:50

to start with the yellow pages. For

19:53

the rational consumer, the

19:55

yellow pages were the greatest marketing

19:57

and advertising medium of all time.

19:59

time. The only time you

20:02

looked in the Yellow Pages was when

20:04

you had a problem and you knew

20:06

that there was a solution. Look

20:08

up what you need, pizza, tire

20:10

repair, whatever it is, and

20:13

there are all of the providers. How

20:15

to tell them apart? Well,

20:18

Ardonalee and AT&T figured

20:20

out a method. The bigger

20:22

the ad, the more money

20:24

the company is spending. Implied

20:27

in that is that companies

20:29

with more money to spend have

20:31

a better reputation. They're signaling by

20:33

spending the money. So just buy

20:35

from the biggest ad. There's

20:38

only one color of printing. There's

20:40

not a lot of creativity. You

20:42

didn't have to engage in any

20:44

sort of cultural dialogue to use

20:46

the Yellow Pages. Well,

20:48

the Yellow Pages made billions and billions

20:51

of dollars, but I can't remember the

20:53

last time I touched the Yellow Pages

20:56

because marketing is more than advertising

20:59

and advertising is more than

21:02

a directory that answers

21:04

your short-term needs. Let's

21:07

begin with two riffs about time. The

21:09

first one is this. The

21:12

other day, I had to take my

21:14

car in for service, went to a

21:16

newly outfitted repair shop, and on the

21:19

way into the repair shop, they

21:21

made you drive your car

21:24

over this weird tire computer.

21:27

What does it do? What it

21:29

does is it takes a picture of

21:32

the depth of your tread and

21:35

then creates a very

21:37

official-looking analysis of whether

21:39

or not you need new tires

21:42

and why. Now, here's the

21:44

thing. You don't need new

21:46

tires until you have

21:48

a flat. But if

21:51

we shift time, it certainly makes

21:53

sense to get new tires before

21:56

you get a flat. How to

21:58

do that? marketers, the

22:00

people working with the dealership,

22:03

understand that having a mechanic,

22:05

perhaps a shady mechanic, say to you,

22:07

well one day soon you're

22:09

gonna need new tires. There

22:11

might not be enough trust there for

22:13

you to believe them because

22:16

we've been trained to be skeptical of people

22:18

who want to sell us something. But

22:20

if it's a computer report, well

22:23

that's totally different. It's

22:25

in black and white. It feels official. I

22:27

feel stupid not getting new

22:30

tires knowing that two months from now

22:32

I might get a flat tire on

22:34

a raining dark night. So

22:36

yeah, I am shifting my

22:39

needs over time and

22:41

it's easy to see that the

22:43

dealership, while making a profit, certainly

22:45

had my needs in mind. If

22:48

I'm the person selling the computer

22:50

to the dealership, I

22:52

can easily articulate that the dealership is going

22:55

to make its money back on this device

22:57

in just a few weeks because

22:59

the device was an effective way

23:02

to shift the way I

23:04

think about time. The

23:06

second part about time is this. We

23:09

know that human

23:11

beings respond to frequency. That

23:14

the first time you heard about an iPhone

23:16

you didn't buy one. That

23:18

the first time you heard that

23:20

you could go on vacation to

23:22

Italy or Ireland or Jamaica, you

23:24

didn't go. That almost nothing that's

23:27

on offer that could make our life better is

23:30

something we bought the first time

23:32

we heard about it. Which means,

23:34

for example, that retailers have to spend

23:37

millions and millions of dollars in rent

23:40

so that the store will be

23:42

seen by us on our commute day after

23:44

day after day until finally, four

23:47

months later, we decide to go

23:49

to that business that mills rice

23:51

fresh to order and

23:53

is now our favorite even

23:55

though we drove past it for three

23:57

months. Whose fault is that? The

24:00

shopkeeper was there waiting, but they

24:03

had to pay rent for all those months to

24:05

get the frequency to earn the attention

24:07

and the trust that caused

24:10

you to take action. And

24:12

so now we get to this idea

24:14

of attention. Attention

24:17

is scarce. Attention

24:19

is expensive. Attention

24:21

isn't like the yellow pages where you decided

24:24

to go look something up. Attention

24:26

often comes to you. So

24:29

if someone has a solution to a problem,

24:32

a tire you're going to need in three

24:34

months that's cheaper to get today, how

24:37

do they get your attention? How

24:39

do they earn your trust? How

24:42

do they afford the frequency of showing

24:44

up again and again and again in

24:46

a way that will

24:48

cause you to take action? You're glad you

24:51

took. I differentiate

24:53

this so completely from

24:55

the selfish marketer who has something

24:57

that if they didn't get paid

24:59

to sell it would never sell,

25:01

who has something that they would

25:03

never buy, who is selfishly trying

25:05

to make a living by hustling

25:07

people to buy a thing, who

25:09

is stealing attention, who is spamming

25:11

people. Spam is

25:14

very simple. It's something I don't want to get

25:17

from someone I don't want to get it from.

25:19

It is in the eye of the recipient. I

25:22

am differentiating that. I am

25:24

differentiating away from spam and

25:26

hustle. Instead, as we

25:28

teach in the marketing seminar, which we

25:30

are starting again next week, we

25:33

explained to people real

25:35

marketing is a service. Real

25:37

marketing is something that if we didn't do

25:40

it, people would say, well, why didn't you

25:42

offer me that? Why didn't

25:44

you come up with a better solution if

25:46

you could have? I am

25:48

disappointed that you didn't show up. It's

25:51

real marketing. The

25:53

problem with Jab, Jab, Jab, Bright Hook is

25:55

that people who didn't look into the nuance

25:58

of what Gary was trying to do. describe,

26:01

think that right hook is the

26:03

selfish poke in the face that

26:05

the marketer makes to get something you don't

26:08

want to give the marketer. I

26:10

think that's the wrong way to think about it. I

26:13

think the right way to think about

26:15

it is how do we deliver anticipated

26:17

personal and relevant messages to people who

26:20

want to get them? How

26:22

do we acknowledge that people need frequency

26:25

even though they shouldn't? As

26:27

rational actors, they should say yes the

26:29

first time, but we don't. I

26:32

don't know anyone who does. How

26:34

do we signal that

26:37

we are serious about what we are

26:39

doing, that we are persistently generous without

26:43

showing up with frequency? I

26:47

thought long and hard about how

26:49

often to mention the alt-MBA. Who

26:53

should I be telling about the new

26:55

session of the marketing seminar? We've

26:58

run it seven times. The eighth

27:00

time is coming up now. Why

27:02

couldn't everyone have just taken it the

27:04

second time? I understand not taking it

27:06

the first time because it was experimental,

27:08

but the second time after it worked,

27:11

if everyone had just taken it the second time,

27:13

we could go back to inventing the next thing.

27:16

But session after session, more people take

27:19

it because frequency

27:21

works. Because people

27:23

are glad to be

27:25

able to get better at something. They

27:27

thank us for being

27:30

persistent in our

27:32

generosity of offering it again. As

27:35

long as the market is like that, as

27:38

long as there is a chasm to be crossed,

27:41

as long as the product adoption

27:43

lifecycle persists, marketers

27:46

are going to show up to

27:48

offer people something they might have

27:50

heard of before. If

27:53

you are offering attention to someone

27:55

who doesn't treat your attention with

27:58

respect, unsubscribe.

28:00

I totally get that. I unsubscribe all

28:02

the time. If you're getting

28:04

spam from people, unanticipated, impersonal,

28:06

irrelevant junk you don't want

28:08

to get that's selfish, hit

28:11

the block button, move

28:13

to the promo folder, delete, delete,

28:15

delete. For sure. Then

28:18

when publicists send me spammy notes asking

28:20

if they could be a guest on

28:23

my podcast, which they have never listened

28:25

to, then yeah, with

28:28

all due respect, basically no

28:30

due respect, I delete

28:33

those emails. This is selfish on their

28:35

part. They couldn't bother to take the

28:37

time to think about what was

28:39

good for me and my listeners. They just know

28:41

what they want. That's not what

28:43

we're talking about here. What I'm talking about

28:45

here is if we are going to be the kind of

28:47

marketer that makes things better

28:50

by making better things, we

28:52

have to be willing to shift time to

28:55

help the short-term thinker think longer-term,

28:58

to offer people something that

29:01

they're glad they engaged with

29:03

later. So the burden

29:06

is on the marketer to

29:08

actually make something worth talking about,

29:11

to actually give people something

29:13

they're glad they engaged with,

29:16

because the most effective marketing over

29:18

and over again, whether you are

29:20

running for president, for dog

29:22

catcher, or selling a widget, is

29:25

when people tell other people. Because

29:28

when people tell other people peer

29:30

to peer, that is

29:33

when the word cooie spreads, when trust

29:36

is truly built. That is the

29:38

frequency that we really seek. So

29:41

as always, I am so grateful that

29:43

people bring enough trust and passion to

29:45

listening to this podcast and the other

29:47

work I do. I don't take it

29:49

for granted, not for a second, but

29:52

I think it's important as consumers

29:54

who then become marketers to

29:57

realize that we can market with empathy.

30:00

The. That. We can bring the right

30:02

thing to the right people at the right time.

30:04

It's not just an opportunity is

30:06

an obligation because the only way

30:09

we're going to make things better

30:11

his by helping people see the

30:13

long term and offering them away

30:15

the cyst time. Says as

30:17

a take action. That. Matters now.

30:20

And pays off Nader. Thanks.

30:22

For listening. We'll. See you next time!