0:00

My name is Alex, and I have more

0:02

than one partner. Nor

0:06

no all right,

0:09

will be all right soever? No

0:14

be al alright,

0:19

no Molly all right ever. I

0:24

was raised in a family that, you know, my mom

0:26

my dad were always together and it was always

0:28

just kind of like super monogamous and

0:30

uh, and I kind of picked up that same spirit. But

0:33

when we were researching this episode, UM,

0:35

there's a lot of really cool ideas that kind

0:37

of came to my mind. The same

0:39

way that people might have a spouse

0:42

or a sexual partner, they might also have a best friend

0:44

or a friend they play video games with, or a friend

0:46

that they do certain activities with. And

0:48

it started making me think about kind

0:51

of the purpose for people in your lives.

0:53

And that's why really was so excited

0:55

to do this episode, UM, expanding

0:58

kind of what relationships are in what they mean.

1:00

So, while I have a girlfriend and

1:03

I am a very monogamous minded

1:05

person, I was so excited to kind

1:07

of hear the reasoning and the

1:10

um experience in life experience

1:12

behind people who have different types of relationships.

1:15

UM. And so this isn't really

1:17

a story time because this is something that I'm really

1:19

here to learn with you guys. Usually

1:22

I have a real nice, long story about my

1:24

experience in the field, but today I'm

1:27

gonna let my guests do the talking. So this

1:29

just got me thinking, is one

1:31

partner enough? And what's it like to actually

1:34

have more than one partner? What's

1:38

up, y'all? It's Alex i oo here, this is my podcast.

1:40

Let's get into it where we get into everything,

1:43

especially things that I have no experience

1:46

on. And today we're talking about O S

1:48

O S. You're gonna hear that a lot in today's episode.

1:51

It stands for other significant

1:53

others. Like I said in my

1:55

story, I don't have a lot of experience in this. I'm

1:57

actually really excited to learn more,

2:00

more and more about it. And I'm gonna be learning from

2:02

not one, not two, which

2:04

is our normal number, but three amazing

2:06

guests. Uh and I want to introduce you to

2:09

them right now. First up,

2:11

we have a stand up comedian

2:13

who's also the host of several podcasts,

2:15

including The Male Gaze and Who's Your

2:17

God. He's also been featured on Comedy Central

2:19

and was a field correspondent

2:22

for I Love You America with Sarah Silverman.

2:24

The one and Only Steve Hernandez. What's

2:26

up? Man, Hey all, that's great to be

2:28

here. Thanks for having you. Are fortunate

2:31

enough to actually have a real personal

2:33

connection to another one of our guests. She

2:35

is a Los Angeles based

2:37

comedian host of What's Your Sign,

2:40

a comedy astrology podcast. She's

2:42

also been featured in Nylon, Bustle, The

2:44

New York Times, Women's health magazine, Vogue,

2:46

and Cosmopolitan. Julia

2:49

Lokan, how are you? I'm good?

2:51

Thank you so much for having me. You guys

2:53

got a petty I mean combined. We're gonna get into

2:56

your relationship in general, but just pedigree

2:58

alone. You guys got just a

3:00

full gamut of success,

3:06

solid, solid credits. Uh. And

3:08

on top of those credits that you guys share, we have

3:10

one more guest with us. The author of

3:12

the best selling book The All Or Nothing

3:14

Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work, professor

3:17

at Northwestern University, as well as

3:19

a social scientists studying romantic

3:21

relationships. He's published over

3:23

a hundred fIF Geez, Louise, I'm

3:25

looking at this. This is crazy,

3:28

how much how much work has been done amongst

3:30

my three guests. He's published over a hundred and fifties

3:32

scientific papers and as a contributor

3:35

to the op ed page of the New

3:37

York Times. Eli Finkel,

3:39

how are you, Eli? I'm doing well. I'm

3:41

excited to be here. Not only am I intimidated,

3:44

but I'm very excited to to learn

3:46

about about this topic about

3:48

open relationships and other significant others.

3:51

First up, Steve and Julia, You

3:53

guys and myself are going to be talking about

3:55

opening up your first hand experience in

3:58

relationships that I can't speak on UH.

4:00

And then we're gonna take a break and we're gonna

4:03

come back, and Eli, you and I are going to be talking about

4:05

the complications of UH

4:07

and the intricate I would say intricacies more than complications

4:10

of different types of relationships.

4:12

And then, last, but not least, we got we're talking love

4:14

hacks and it's gonna be all four of us and we're just

4:16

gonna be figuring out how the best relationships

4:19

work. Well. Um, but before we get

4:21

into that, I have a question that I ask all

4:23

of my guests, and it's pretty simple question.

4:25

It is, what have you been doing this week to

4:28

improve yourself? Julia,

4:30

you seem like you have an answer for us. I

4:32

do. I have lots of answers. I've

4:34

adopted like a real uh mantra

4:37

for the year. Not a resolution per

4:39

se, but something that I'm constantly

4:41

kind of trying to do, which is systems

4:43

not stories. So I think I make up

4:45

a lot of like negative self talk stories

4:47

that end up persisting problems

4:49

instead of solving them. So I'm trying to come up

4:52

with like, Okay, I haven't been posting

4:54

enough on social media. So instead of thinking

4:56

like, oh, I'm bad at that, I'm

4:59

going to create a schedule for myself

5:01

and say, like Monday, I need to post this

5:03

thing. Tuesday, I need to do this. Um,

5:06

I've been feeling bad physically,

5:08

and so I did yoga today. That's another one where

5:10

I was like, that's a system over a story,

5:12

instead of making up a story about how I'm a

5:15

terrible person who doesn't take care of themselves.

5:17

My friend was teaching a yoga class and I took that yoga

5:19

class. I like that systems

5:22

over stories. That's a I've never even

5:24

heard of that before, but that makes so much sense as

5:26

you explained it. I love that. I love that, Uh,

5:28

Steve, you got something for us. Yeah,

5:30

I've got a few things. I think in the middle of this

5:32

pandemic and everything, especially it goes on

5:35

longer and longer. I've been

5:37

making it a real habit to reach

5:40

out when I start to feel bad, when I start

5:42

to feel anxious or depressed. So, uh,

5:45

not only have been I've been making phone

5:47

calls to my friends with especially I think as

5:49

a as a man, men don't typically do

5:51

this kind of thing, but I have been making phone calls. But

5:54

twice this week I met my friends out

5:56

socially distanced over at the Silver

5:58

Lake Reservoir and we went for a two a walk.

6:00

But we're able to talk for half an hour and

6:03

then go, you know, on the two

6:05

or three mile walk. It takes about an hour. And

6:08

you know, no matter what anyone says, any kind of

6:10

thing, just moving your body and seeing

6:13

a friend because we can't do that anymore.

6:15

It energizes you and makes you feel so

6:17

good. And if you're feeling hopeless or anxious

6:19

or depressed even a little bit, remembering

6:22

that you're not in the Salona, that people love you

6:24

in this world. It's been. It's it's it's

6:26

changed the way I feel completely. Man.

6:29

I love that, especially because, like

6:31

you mentioned in the pandemic, it's really taken.

6:33

Um. We've had episodes about it where anybody

6:36

who has mental illness who's already kind of known

6:38

about it and has been dealing with it, it's taken a hit

6:40

and a lot of people are also now realizing

6:43

um kind of the daily struggles. We just recorded

6:45

an episode about about anxiety

6:48

and how some of anxiety is built

6:50

into everybody and some of it, especially

6:52

in times like this, can really flare up.

6:54

And so I think that's a great idea

6:56

reaching out as huge. I started seeing a therapist

6:59

in the pandemic. It was the first time that I decided

7:01

to actually like reach out, reach out, and so

7:03

the fact that that was your answer makes me very

7:05

very happy. My friend, um Eli,

7:08

how about you? What are you been doing this week to improve yourself?

7:10

Well, the new academic term started

7:13

this quarter and I'm teaching my undergraduate

7:15

course on relationships science, the

7:17

field where you use data to try

7:19

to figure out what works and relationships. And

7:22

I've been studying this stuff for over twenty years

7:24

now, but I decided to do a significant

7:27

overhaul on the course, especially

7:29

because it's the first time I've ever taught several hundred

7:31

people on zoom and it has been a blast.

7:33

I've been doing a lot more work than

7:36

necessary, and it's certainly paying off so far. I

7:38

don't even know if I fully understand

7:41

what you just said. But we're gonna unpack. We're

7:43

gonna unpack all of it. Um Uh.

7:46

It sounds like taking a course on on how

7:48

successful relationships work. Probably is something

7:51

that we should all do, and that's why we're here today

7:53

talking about it. Um, we've got

7:55

I'm just hyped today. We have such good energy.

7:58

So let's get straight into it. Steve and

8:00

Julia, let's get into talking. Eli. I'll

8:02

be with you in just a sex you can sit tight.

8:06

First off, you guys just got married. Congratulations,

8:09

Thank you? How was? How was?

8:11

What's a wedding like in in pandemic mode?

8:14

What it would take me down? Take me down

8:16

the road? Well, it's a real

8:19

uh. I think it's like most things in

8:21

in pandemic boat, it's a very much

8:23

an exercise and surrender and

8:25

being being okay with

8:27

what you can and can't control in those kinds

8:30

of things. Um, we went to Vegas and

8:33

we're going to try to have a really small,

8:35

intimate kind of family only ceremony

8:37

in person thing, you know, obviously taking

8:39

into account everything that was going on. Um.

8:42

But as the numbers, particular here

8:44

in l A got worse and worse, it just

8:46

became apparent that that was not going to be

8:48

an option. Um, but we still wanted to get

8:50

married in it felt

8:53

like a it's like a good way to kind

8:55

of wrap up a shitty year,

8:57

and we wanted to be married

9:00

ads. So we decided to go to Vegas, which I'm a big

9:02

Vegas person, and having

9:04

like, uh, not a shotgun

9:07

Vegas wedding, but some kind of like quicky Vegas

9:09

wedding is like, uh a thing

9:11

that I thought would be fun um.

9:14

And it was very funny. It

9:16

was like I mean not it was very special

9:18

and romantic and sweet too, but it's just it

9:21

was a really surreal you know, being

9:23

in Vegas during your pandemic. I think you like

9:26

I it just hit me on a lot more

9:28

levels than I was expecting because you're seeing

9:30

people. It was a weird thing to see

9:32

people still kind of out acting like it's not

9:34

a pandemic and all

9:37

of the things that come with that. But it was also

9:39

a really great I think, like I said,

9:41

exercise and surrender of really being like that

9:43

what's important about this isn't all

9:46

of the other things like

9:48

we wore Dodger jerseys and we got

9:50

our rings when we were there and all of

9:52

these things that it's like it was special

9:54

because it was us getting married and professing

9:58

our love to each other and doing this thing.

10:00

It wasn't what we were wearing or any of

10:02

those things. So it was a real like put

10:04

your money where your mouth is kind of exercise

10:07

for me. I think. Ah, And how

10:09

long have you guys been together? Exactly? Six

10:12

years here? Six years? Six

10:15

years? And so was there any part of you guys

10:17

that I know you had mentioned you wanted to wait. Seemed

10:19

like of great time to to make

10:22

something good out of the year. But

10:24

was there any part of you guys that said, hey, we should just wait until

10:27

it's until pandemics over so we can have the

10:29

family and the party and the and the

10:31

whole nine. I mean, we're still going

10:33

to do that. That's that's the only reason. Julian

10:36

her wedding dress, she has like a nice

10:38

wedding dress and everything. We're still going

10:41

to do that, God willing at in New

10:43

Year's Eve next year. Everyone

10:45

will be okay. By then, it'll be safe. But yeah,

10:48

so we did it because I just I didn't

10:50

want to call this. We only got engaged in early November.

10:53

I just I didn't want to call her fiance. For a

10:55

whole year we lived together already. She's

10:57

been my wife in my heart for a

11:00

while now, so it's just felt

11:02

silly to me. I was like, I'm not gonna I was

11:04

a little cautious because I felt bad about

11:07

going to Vegas. But we

11:10

went. We spent the night in a hotel and then our

11:12

appointment was at twelve thirty pm, and then

11:14

we got the heck out of Vegas. So I think

11:16

there was just that thing. It was funny because we're

11:18

like, let's go, let's do what. I wanted this to be official,

11:21

and we did it. And then when we get to this little

11:23

white chapel and this uh, super

11:25

sweet, hilarious little Filipino

11:28

woman in a glittery like bow tie

11:30

was marrying us. And then she she was

11:32

really great because she but she was rushing us too.

11:34

She's like all right, now, walked down the aisle and she ran

11:36

up front and press play on the CD player

11:38

and the song played, and then she's like say something

11:41

sweet to her, say it from your heart. And then I

11:43

look into Julia's face and as fun as this,

11:45

and I was like, this is just to make

11:47

it official, but the real weddings next year. When

11:49

I looked in her face, I was I was like,

11:51

surprised at how moved I

11:54

was. I was like, okay, the real weddings next

11:56

year. But also I can't believe

11:58

this. We're really getting married and then absolutely

12:00

nobody in the world that I would rather be

12:03

partnered with them, this perfect woman right here.

12:05

So I was surprised at how how

12:08

much emotion and how much is still right

12:10

there and that thing that we want to do to be

12:12

fun and to make it official with paperwork,

12:15

but I was surprised at how swelled

12:17

I was with emotion. She was like, speak from your heart

12:20

and you gotta believe me, Alex, I've

12:22

got like the sickest like of

12:24

I was already written in my head, but so I didn't

12:26

want to waste it in Vegas. So I

12:28

was just like mm, I just

12:31

said like very simple things, but also looking

12:33

to joy his face, I was like, I'm so happy

12:35

that we're here right now doing this

12:37

because I'm so excited to be partnered

12:40

up with them. My my heart

12:42

is absolutely just overflowing

12:45

right now. And I said, I'm actually

12:47

so glad you guys said that too, because and

12:49

I don't and I and I really hope that nothing

12:52

that I say is taken for anything

12:54

other than me really being excited about

12:56

learning about other types of relationships.

12:59

But I'm so glad that you started with that because

13:03

your relationship isn't uh

13:06

is not necessarily the I

13:08

don't. I don't even know like a traditional relation.

13:11

I don't know how, but maybe it's more traditional. We're gonna

13:13

learn. But um, I want to get

13:15

this right, Steve. You are open

13:18

and Julia is not open. Is that correct?

13:21

Yeah? I would say that I identify as

13:23

non monogamous, polyamorous,

13:25

and Julia at this point does not, So

13:28

yeah, I would say that's fair to say. So I

13:31

would love to to just break that

13:33

down and conventional that's the word I

13:35

was I was thinking of earlier. But I

13:37

want to break that down because I'm so glad that you started

13:40

with how how loving and

13:42

incredible, even if it was in Vegas. I'm so glad

13:44

you talked about how rich your love is because

13:47

I think a common misconception,

13:49

including a misconception that I had for the

13:51

longest time until I actually made friends with

13:53

somebody a few years back who was in an open relationship

13:55

and kind of schooled me a little bit. A common

13:57

misconception with an open relationship is this whole

14:00

like, well, they're not really. It's just they're

14:02

like into each other, but they're not that into each other, but they

14:04

don't want to not be with each other. Like. There's a

14:06

lot of misconceptions, and so I'm glad that we're here

14:08

um talking about and unwrapping

14:11

it. Um. But first, before we get

14:13

into the nitty gritty of that, I'd like to

14:15

take it all the way back to kind

14:17

of the early stages of your guys relationship,

14:20

Julia. On your end, what was

14:22

that conversation, Like, at what point

14:24

did you guys have the conversation of being

14:26

polyamorous or or monogamous?

14:29

And you know, were you guys already in love?

14:31

Was it right at the beginning on the first date?

14:33

Walk me through that. Well, we're both

14:36

um, stand up comedians, and

14:38

that means that we uh,

14:40

I guess thankful. I don't know, I don't know if thankfully

14:42

it is the right word, but I

14:43

think I think thankfully.

14:46

I mean I don't think we could do it any other way.

14:48

Um, but I these are things that I knew about Steve

14:50

before we were in a relationship together,

14:52

because you talk about yourself in your material,

14:55

so I was aware that he had been in previous,

14:57

um, non monogamous relationships,

15:00

and when we got together, it

15:02

wasn't necessarily like an explicit

15:04

conversation that we had, but I do feel

15:06

like it was something that I knew was part

15:08

of him and part of his baggage

15:11

so to speak, that was coming with or like just part of who

15:13

he is, and that that was something that would likely

15:15

come up and then um, but it wasn't,

15:19

uh, you know. I

15:21

feel like it was more of a thing of like, yes,

15:24

that's something that I'm aware of, will

15:26

kind of cross that bridge when we

15:28

get to it, because I think, uh,

15:31

it wasn't something that was happening

15:33

when we were first together, but as

15:36

obviously we've been together longer, there's

15:38

been just different, I think, different conversations

15:40

about it at different points, sometimes

15:42

around like is this something that

15:44

you um can

15:46

be okay with? Is kind of

15:48

the I

15:51

guess the main question that would come up at

15:53

different points as we got further

15:55

along in our relationship. So

15:58

the thing that I'm really interested in earning

16:00

about especially with you. I, Like I

16:02

mentioned, I have made friends with people who are

16:04

in open relationships, but I've never made friends

16:06

with somebody who's in a I guess

16:08

partially open relationship. I don't know

16:10

if that's the proper term for it. Can

16:12

you talk about your choice to be partially

16:15

open and why that was still important

16:17

to you to remain monogamous

16:20

even though you were entering this relationship. It's

16:22

something for me that's just not a thing right now. I

16:25

can't say how I'm going to feel, you know,

16:27

further down the line. And I

16:29

think that's kind of my feeling about

16:31

the whole thing in general, is more just like

16:34

it's not really an issue

16:36

for me, not not the practice

16:38

in and of itself, but I mean the the to

16:41

me. I don't I'm

16:43

not like struggling with monogamy

16:45

or anything. I don't. I don't necessarily

16:48

think that that's always going to be

16:50

the case or whatever, but I mean, especially

16:53

literally right now, in the pandemic and whatnot,

16:55

Like I'm not I'm certainly

16:58

certainly not open,

17:00

but I think it's less. I think

17:02

it's more just like a to

17:05

each their own kind of thing, So it's not

17:07

necessarily a decided I am

17:10

monogamous. He is not kind

17:12

of thing. It's more just like, if

17:15

this is what you need to do, this is what

17:17

you do, I don't need to do that at the time.

17:19

There may again, like I said, there may come a time in

17:21

the future when I when I would

17:23

like to, And at that point, I'm going to be

17:25

really grateful that I'm with a partner who is open

17:28

to those ideas and having those

17:30

discussions, because I think that that more

17:32

than anything, I think being able to talk about it and

17:34

being able to hold the idea

17:37

of evaluating is

17:39

this working for me versus these

17:41

are the ways that this is supposed to go. Um

17:45

is the most important thing I think

17:47

for anybody, whether you're in a monogamous

17:49

relationship or a non monogamous

17:51

relationship, whatever, whatever kind

17:53

of even casual dating sort of thing, if if

17:55

the core thing for all of those things

17:58

is figuring out what actually works for

18:00

you and makes you feel happy and fulfilled

18:02

and like you are showing up in the most hole

18:05

and complete kind of way. Oh

18:07

man, this is the thing, is like I really

18:09

have since you guys started speaking on your relationship,

18:12

I'm like, wow, again, I

18:14

think it's common misconceptions by

18:16

by monogamous people. They ask questions

18:18

that are probably very very annoying to be

18:21

asked, and they and they um,

18:23

and they view things in a different way where it's

18:25

I think it's very label based

18:27

and it's like, well, if you're in a relationship, then it

18:29

means this and it has to mean that. And what you mentioned

18:31

is like, look, at the end of the day, you're with somebody who's

18:34

just so open minded that says, hey, if your heart

18:36

desires something and you need to

18:38

follow your heart, then like you go after it.

18:41

Steve, I want to switch it over to you a

18:43

little bit. I have not heard

18:45

the your comedy, UM,

18:48

your comedy routines that involve talking

18:50

about your maybe your reasoning behind

18:53

being polyamorous. But can you

18:55

talk me through kind of what led you to that

18:57

um that answer that was something

19:00

at you that you desired. Um,

19:02

I think it's something I got into

19:04

with my ex. I've been doing this for about fifteen years

19:07

and I was married previously, we

19:09

were open. That wasn't the reason why we

19:12

ended. We ended because I started doing comedy, which

19:14

is a terrible life. I wouldn't

19:16

I wouldn't put it on anybody I really do. I feel

19:18

bad about it with my ex wife that I

19:20

started comedy after we got married, and it was

19:22

really like the worst thing you could put on someone but

19:25

her. Her and I were open as well. Uh

19:27

we stumbled into it. Uh

19:29

um, you know, we stumbled

19:32

into it. We started doing all the other things. And then

19:34

when I was married, I was like a regular

19:37

kind of anybody who would identify as polyamorous.

19:39

All the kind of things you've heard are are

19:42

like the scummy jokes or whatever. I

19:44

was like the guy who was trying to, like

19:46

ten years ago, fifteen years ago, I was trying to talk

19:48

everyone into it, like this is like the best

19:51

lifestyle for everyone. Everyone needs to think

19:53

this way. It is like that. I now understand

19:56

that that's absolutely not the case,

19:58

and and that my how I define it

20:00

as constantly evolving as well.

20:03

I really love relationships and I really love

20:06

people, and to me, ultimately,

20:08

I want each relationship to be what

20:11

it what it can be, and if

20:13

that includes physicalness, that's okay. If

20:15

it's a romantic relationship without touching,

20:17

I would like it to be that kind of a thing too.

20:20

I understand most people have a hard

20:22

time just finding one partner so

20:25

I know how greedy it looks for me to say

20:27

I want like more than this

20:30

perfect person. I mean, people would

20:32

be like you, piece of ship you got, Julie, You've

20:34

got the perfect person, and you still want

20:36

more, And it's like I don't. I mean,

20:39

yes, absolutely that's the case. I want

20:41

the most out of life, and I want all

20:43

my relationships to be authentically

20:45

what both people want them to be. All

20:49

makes sense, I mean I think that's

20:51

and and that's why I want to walk into this next question

20:53

kind of as if not

20:56

as a curiosity, but you the way

20:58

that you just explained it. Um, I think of

21:00

a pretty common question that would be asked is

21:02

like, isn't isn't an open

21:04

relationship just basically like free

21:07

pass to cheat? But the way that you explained

21:09

it, it kind of feels a

21:11

lot more ethical then

21:14

then then the free pass

21:16

the cheat type of things. So can you explain to me

21:18

how how you differentiated

21:20

that and knowing like you mentioned, there's a lot of

21:22

like people who kind of mask an open relationship

21:24

with just not necessarily being able to

21:26

be faithful to one person and so they just

21:29

kind of go off. Can you explain to me the difference between

21:31

the two of those things. Well, yeah,

21:33

I can't. I can only tell you about my

21:35

own journey. And there was a time

21:38

when I was married previously, I

21:40

remember like looking for

21:43

people to hook up with. UM.

21:45

I don't really do that anymore. It's

21:48

become more of a philosophical thing for me.

21:50

I very much want to honor

21:52

our relationship. UM.

21:54

I do know. Sometimes I di did somebody

21:57

last year for about ten months, three

21:59

months for the pandemic, and then kind of

22:01

that seeped into the pandemic. We ended

22:04

up having to end it because we just couldn't

22:06

really see each other that much too. It got

22:08

But when I was dating that person,

22:11

uh, with Julia, I would

22:13

tell her, you know, I'm gonna see this person

22:15

this day, or I'm gonna go call her in the other room.

22:18

And Julia would be okay with it sometimes

22:20

and sometimes she you could tell that

22:22

it bothered her. And so for

22:25

me, I I know understand why it

22:27

bothers her, because I think society

22:29

and how we view romance has

22:32

put so much weight on the romantic relationship

22:34

that she's bound to think that I'm

22:37

not enough for this person. So I understand

22:39

that. UM, And those

22:41

times I would come back and we would talk for a

22:43

couple of hours or an hour, and then she would

22:45

be okay and so um

22:48

to me, I want to live

22:50

the fullest life I can live. I I want

22:52

Julia to be happy, but I do know

22:54

what she feels hurt and stuff like that that it's

22:57

based on stuff that I don't believe, and I don't

22:59

think she really leaves. And I mean,

23:01

the newest thing for me in the past year or two is

23:04

I really want the people that I date

23:06

or sleep with to be

23:08

happy and whole too. There's been

23:10

a lot of people that will agree

23:13

to something like this, but I know ultimately

23:15

they don't understand what they're signing up for that

23:17

they end up falling in love, they end up wanting

23:20

this other thing. And so the

23:22

older I get, the longer I do it, the

23:24

more I understand to ethically do this

23:26

where everybody involved is gonna

23:28

be happy and their expectations are gonna

23:31

be mad. I think that it becomes a more rare

23:33

and more rare opportunity. But I'm

23:36

so glad the foundation of this is laid

23:38

because I do believe I'm gonna be able

23:40

to have those two or three other

23:42

people in my life in the next

23:44

twenty years where they're gonna be like

23:46

different kinds of soul mates, like great

23:49

friends that I happen to be able to have sex with and

23:51

kiss sometimes. But to me,

23:53

it's all about intimacy and it's

23:55

all about being honest and

23:57

open about all of those things, so that nobody

24:00

old deceived or taking advantage of. You

24:02

had mentioned that, you know, you had said sometimes

24:05

you call and if it's in the other room, you always give it the

24:07

heads up. Are there and this is I'm bringing Julia.

24:09

You're back. You're back in the conversation. Thank

24:12

you? Are there any you guys have specific rules?

24:15

I'm really I'm truly curious.

24:18

Is it something that you set ground rules ahead of

24:20

time? Um? Was there anything specifically,

24:22

Julia that you said, Hey, I really want to know these

24:24

things. I don't want to know these things. What

24:27

are the kind of the ground rules?

24:29

I think at first I definitely had more

24:31

of a like I don't want to know kind

24:34

of position. But the more

24:36

that things unfolded, the

24:38

more I was like, well, I need to know, like a

24:41

little bit only for the sake

24:44

of I think it's like a protective

24:46

thing for sure. But then, um,

24:48

you know, you talked about doing an episode on anxiety. I

24:50

think a lot of times your mind can come up with

24:52

way more complicated Uh. You

24:54

know, I'm a story mind, storyteller. That's why

24:56

I need that mantre for me. That it's

24:59

easier to to have someone say,

25:01

Okay, I'm talking to this person.

25:04

Uh, like you just some

25:06

some things I don't need to know, like details,

25:08

but like it's it's so funny. We're

25:10

best friends too, so even this last person

25:13

for instance, which I would say it's our our

25:15

whole relationship. Maybe we had

25:17

a donuss don't tell thing, but we really

25:19

didn't. We spend We're both comics, so we spent

25:21

so much time together. There wasn't there's things

25:24

here and there that I would do. But this is the first person I

25:26

would say that I dated. We're together, and

25:28

it felt so funny because she's my

25:30

best friend and we talked about everything all the time,

25:33

and so she was like, at first,

25:35

I don't wanna, I don't want to hear about any of this, and

25:37

I was like, okay, but you know, I'm sitting here

25:39

and I have a French I'm like, have a different

25:41

super thing that I'm excited about, or

25:43

that I have issues with our problems with and I'm

25:45

like, I can't believe I can't talk to my best

25:47

friend about this stuff. And so I think

25:50

at some point I did start that

25:52

was something we talked about, and I did start

25:54

talking about it and maybe problems I was having

25:57

or issues or these things coming up.

25:59

And I do think that did calm you down

26:01

a little bit, right, Yeah, I think it helps

26:03

because I think that's what I mean where I'm like, I think in your

26:05

mind, you think it helps you to not know,

26:07

And me for me saying I don't want to

26:10

know, um uh, I

26:12

think, like I said, is definitely a protective

26:14

thing. But I think also for me it was really important

26:16

to try my best to not have

26:19

my own preconceptions

26:21

or judgments influence his experience

26:23

with this other person too, because as much

26:25

as you know I have, I'm very

26:27

aware that even though we're literally talking

26:30

about monogamy, there are these same kinds

26:32

of issues for relationships.

26:34

In any kind of thing. You could replace this

26:37

with someone who has like a is

26:40

super into sports or whatever, like, there's always

26:42

going to be things that that are potential

26:45

things for disconnection or potential things

26:47

for you to have problems with that you

26:49

that are bringing up personal triggers

26:52

for you that you project onto that

26:54

other person. And I going into this,

26:56

I wanted to be very clear that, like, I'm

26:58

going to take responsibity for whatever

27:01

comes up for me and know that it's

27:03

coming up because of these things, but it is

27:06

not a causal thing necessarily

27:08

that like he is doing this to

27:10

me to hurt me, Like this is what

27:12

comes up for me is my fear of abandonment

27:15

when you go when you go and do something

27:17

without me, I get afraid that you're gonna leave me. That

27:19

doesn't mean that that thing isn't like

27:21

that. I'm not entitled to those feelings, but I'm

27:24

able to understand that I am.

27:26

I am not feeling that because he's doing

27:28

that. I'm feeling that because I have that fear

27:30

inside of me, and that might come again. That's

27:32

what I mean and saying like for someone else, that same

27:34

fear of abandonment might come up when

27:37

someone goes to the gym too

27:39

much or whatever. Like there's it's

27:41

it doesn't have to literally be seeing another

27:44

person, but because it is seeing another person, I

27:46

do think it kind of accelerates those

27:48

things for you to to deal

27:50

with them. A little bit more quickly. Um,

27:53

but sorry, I went off on a tear. Uh. The

27:57

like the knowing stuff. I think it does put

27:59

your mind at because then you're just hearing again. You're

28:01

you're allowing whatever whatever things

28:03

are coming up for you are kind of creating worst

28:06

case scenario sorts of things. So hearing about

28:08

a person, it reminds you that they're

28:10

a person. It reminds you that it's not

28:12

like a boogeyman, uh,

28:14

you know, like evil some

28:17

somewhat saboteur coming to destroy

28:20

you and your relationships and all

28:22

of those kinds of things. So I think that it's still

28:24

a fine line and it's it's it's

28:26

up to you, the

28:29

person on the receiving end will say to kind

28:32

of be making sure that you are

28:34

sifting through and saying, like, what's something

28:37

that can be a practical ask of

28:39

Like I said at one point, like, hey, could

28:41

you do your best to like make these

28:44

calls when I'm not here because I feel like a creep

28:46

having a sit in the other rooms. Like you

28:48

know, I know that you're gonna do this, but could you please

28:51

that's like a practical ask versus

28:53

like when you're doing this, it's hurt,

28:55

you know whatever, Like those are things, what's

28:57

what is okay to ask and what's not? Again,

28:59

like systems versus the story. There

29:02

we go, systems versus stories coming

29:04

back. It's really it really

29:06

is and and and I hope this

29:08

is taken as a compliment. It's really cool

29:12

hearing how like you guys

29:14

are the most stable relationship

29:16

I think I've ever seen, and

29:18

it and it comes off of something that I think a

29:20

lot of people either view as as different

29:23

or maybe you know, all all different opinions,

29:25

and it's and it's really cool just seeing how something

29:27

that um that is so

29:30

different than the way that I choose

29:32

to express my love is still so stable

29:34

and so comfortable. And it reminds

29:37

me of my own relationships that

29:39

I've had, and especially the relationship I'm in now

29:41

that is so focused on making

29:43

each other happy and also

29:45

making ourselves happy. So I think that's awesome.

29:48

You've already expressed and this is my last question

29:50

before we take a break. Um, you've already expressed

29:53

kind of the ways that it can get complicated or

29:55

the anxieties about it, or um

29:57

any of the problems that can come up. But what ways

29:59

is as the relationship become better in this,

30:02

in this partially open relationship.

30:04

I am so in love with her. It makes me so

30:07

like, I feel so blessed

30:09

and so happy that someone would

30:12

allow me to be myself in this way

30:14

because because I don't you know, she

30:16

she called it baggage. Really, I know she didn't mean it

30:19

like that, but you know, going into it, this is

30:21

kind of just how I am. And I know this is

30:23

how I work best, and that I personally,

30:26

uh wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea

30:28

of monogamy, even just philosophically.

30:30

It bothers me. So I love that she

30:33

allows me to intellectually express

30:35

this stuff, and you know that I'm able

30:37

to go out like this, and I mean, it's just

30:40

I just don't think it's gonna I feel so bad because

30:43

she's all over my instagram. Alex

30:45

you gotta see this instagram, but she's all

30:47

over it, and I almost feel so bad because

30:49

I'm so in love with her. It's so obvious that I'm

30:51

in love with her that I almost don't want to

30:53

see anyone else ever, because I'm like, I gotta

30:55

rub it in, I gotta rub it in their face how

30:58

much I love my wife, and I like

31:00

an asshole. I

31:02

do feel so free and able to

31:04

come home and have this person is

31:06

my home base and that accepts me and knows

31:09

me, loves me unconditionally. To

31:11

me, it is so freeing,

31:13

and I mean, I'm just I feel blessed.

31:17

Yeah, I mean I think that, like

31:19

I said, there's nothing about it philosophically

31:21

that I disagree with. To me, my

31:24

my hesitations with with non

31:26

monogamy open relationships is to

31:28

me more about efficiency and effectiveness,

31:31

and I think that it's a thing that's that Like

31:34

you said, there's a there are complications,

31:36

there are things like that, and it's not so much

31:38

that I have no philosophical disagreements.

31:41

It's more in the practice being

31:44

in a non monogamous relationship. It also

31:46

is held up a mirror in ways, like I've

31:48

been saying, where it's like, even if it's not

31:51

in our relationship, are there other areas

31:53

of my life where I'm not being open

31:55

in a way that I could be? Am? I am?

31:57

I also like putting up

32:00

barriers to connection in other ways. Maybe

32:02

that that can mean literally in relationships,

32:04

but also I think it's really forced me to um

32:08

not forced, but forced in a lot of ways to

32:11

uh like sped up. That's why I mean, I don't mean

32:13

it like aggressively for but

32:16

like like accelerated things

32:18

to where I think, again, you can get mushier

32:21

of like, oh is this I could have I

32:23

could have done this like abandonment thing

32:25

or self worth kind of thing. I could have projected

32:28

that onto any number of things or and that's

32:30

a problem that could have persisted for a bunch

32:32

of years. But because again we're like dealing

32:34

with it so immediately and so literally,

32:37

I think it's really made me kind of um

32:40

have to show up for myself in a lot of ways,

32:42

and and um that I'm

32:44

really happy for and really grateful for. And

32:46

I'm grateful to have a partner who

32:49

also like asks that of me and

32:51

and wants me to be the

32:53

fullest expression of who I am and the most

32:56

kind of like honest, authentic someone

32:58

who's like growing and challenging them selves and isn't

33:00

going isn't going to let me off not

33:03

growing and and addressing things

33:05

because it's for it's because it's good, not

33:08

not in a way because it's like, oh you need to do

33:10

this, but in a way where it's like these

33:12

are this is going to help you as a person.

33:16

I'm like, I'm literally like, my

33:18

heart is so warm right now. You guys

33:20

are really it's really I'm

33:22

so grateful that you guys are here just to want

33:25

to expand my knowledge on this situation

33:27

or on this um on this topic.

33:30

And also just too, I think we

33:32

need more love, Like we need more love in

33:34

the world right now, and so getting to hear it from

33:36

other people and like here people

33:39

profess their love for each other, it's just so it's

33:41

so amazing. Um, we're gonna take a quick break

33:43

when we come back, I'm gonna be speaking with Eli

33:46

about it's complicated,

33:48

don't go anywhere. All

33:50

right, we are back. This is let's get into it.

33:53

And I have the one and only Eli

33:55

Finkel, professor at Northwestern

33:57

also the author of the All or Nothing may

34:00

Ridge. Eli. We just you.

34:02

You just got to listen to me speaking with

34:04

Um with Steve and Julia, and

34:06

uh, it just it just felt my

34:08

I'm like, I'm so excited

34:11

to speak with you on on the actual kind

34:13

of I don't know scientific background of a

34:15

relationship like that, but um,

34:17

how how common are our relationships

34:20

like that outside of monogamy.

34:23

Well, if you're talking about non monogamous

34:25

relationships in particular, I mean, they certainly

34:27

go back at least till biblical times, and certainly,

34:30

uh, you know, beyond that. Um,

34:32

if you're talking about the sort of

34:35

non monogamous relationship that Steve and Julia

34:37

have, that's of the now, Um.

34:39

The language that surrounds it with authenticity

34:42

and growth and living a

34:44

full and honest life like that. That's the language

34:47

of America and the twenty one century

34:49

more than it is the language of you know, King

34:51

David. Yeah, and you and you talk a lot about

34:53

how right now it's a lot different than the way

34:56

it used to be. Society now tells us that

34:58

we fall in love and the person that we choose

35:00

has to be everything. It's got to be the

35:03

place you find happiness, the place you go on adventure,

35:05

is the place you have sex, you laugh, you're

35:07

comforted, you're having intellectual

35:10

conversations with and spiritually compatible

35:13

all of these things, and that they should be

35:16

just the one. You know, everybody talks about

35:18

the one, and they talk about

35:20

soul mate, and it's always a very singular

35:23

term. Um. But in your book All or Nothing

35:25

Marriage, you talk about how that idea,

35:27

that concept is actually new, it's very

35:30

very new. But at the same time there

35:32

are there are other needs. So how

35:34

can an OsO as we

35:36

as were will use that term again, um,

35:39

make your primary relationship better? Well,

35:43

a relationships quality is determined to

35:45

a large extent by

35:48

how much the needs and expectations we

35:50

bring to the relationship are met by this one

35:52

other person. And it means that there's

35:55

you know, a few different ways we can improve the relationship.

35:57

UM. One way is to do what relationships

36:00

you know therapists and scholars like me

36:02

tend to tell people, which is how do

36:04

you have more meaningful connections, how do you communicate

36:07

better, how to have effective date nights.

36:09

But another strategy that that isn't really

36:11

about sort of investing more in the

36:13

relationship, is figuring out the

36:15

ways that this one person isn't going to

36:17

be able to satisfy every single thing

36:20

and stop relying on that

36:22

one person to do those things. And so this is the idea

36:24

of the other significant other or the OsO.

36:27

There are many ways that we can look to our

36:29

broader social networks for

36:31

a range of different sorts of fulfillment. I don't just

36:34

me and romantic or sexual sorts of connections.

36:36

You know, we used to socialize in in same sex

36:39

groups and nobody ever said things like I

36:41

want to marry you because you're my best friend. It would

36:43

have seemed ludicrous. But these

36:45

days we spend more and more time with our one

36:47

significant other. It comes at the expense of

36:50

time that we spend separate from that person,

36:52

but with other significant others, friends

36:54

or or potentially romantic partners aside

36:56

from the primary one um. And

36:59

you know, to the degree that we can sort of spread

37:02

the love around a little bit and make sure that we're

37:04

we're focusing on our relationship in the ways

37:07

that play to the strengths of that relationship

37:09

and finding ways to look elsewhere when

37:11

there might be a limitation or or

37:13

a something less than perfect fulfillment

37:16

within the relationship. So

37:19

based off of that, and based off of also kind

37:21

of what Julia and Steve had said,

37:23

I started kind of connecting things. You know, Julia

37:26

had mentioned the same way that somebody goes

37:28

to the gym so much, it can make somebody feel

37:30

like their time is being given somewhere else,

37:33

or that they're dedicated to something else. How

37:35

do you differentiate Or maybe there's not a differential

37:38

like is is you know, if I like to

37:40

play video games every night with my

37:42

with my one homie that lives

37:44

in on the other side of the earth, and I

37:46

have to play it like it's it's how I get that out.

37:49

Is that considered an os O? Is that just a

37:51

hobby? That's because what I'm starting to realize

37:53

is maybe before this podcast,

37:55

I thought when you're in an open relationship, the only

37:58

time that you're with other people is to like have because

38:00

it's a sexual thing. And I always thought that, and I'm so

38:02

wrong, like insanely wrong. And

38:04

I'm so happy that I've come to this

38:07

episodes that I can learn about

38:09

the depths of open relationships.

38:12

But now that now

38:14

that we're kind of talking about and you say, sometimes it's people

38:16

who just make you happy, or it's doing something

38:18

and committing to something else outside of your

38:20

relationship, how do you differentiate like

38:22

an OsO then from something like

38:25

I got. I go to the gym every day, and I have my workout

38:27

partner that I go and I work out with all the time.

38:30

I mean, I would define an OsO broadly, but there

38:32

are certainly subcategories and and a workout

38:34

buddy is very different from a sex buddy or

38:36

a love buddy. UM. The broader

38:39

context here, there are three different types of open

38:41

relationships. UM. It sounds

38:44

as if, if I've got it correctly, that that Steve and

38:46

Julia have one that is asymmetric,

38:48

so Steve is open and Julia is not. But also

38:50

what we might just call open relationship.

38:53

That's one type where the assumption is, look, you can,

38:55

you're allowed to, um, you know, have some

38:57

other people on the side, and the you know, people

38:59

negotiate the contours of that. There's a second

39:01

type, which informally you could call swinging,

39:04

which is, um, we are with other people,

39:06

but only when we're both there. So that might be something

39:09

like orgies or perhaps uh,

39:11

pretty sexual parties and things like that. UM.

39:13

And the third type is is polyamory. And

39:16

polyamory is a subcase of open

39:18

relationships that that really is about

39:20

long term, emotionally intimate

39:22

connections with more than one partner.

39:25

UM. By the way, it can easily be that all

39:27

three are equally emotionally

39:29

intimate. Right. So so the again,

39:31

there's all these different variations. And I

39:33

agree with you completely that there are many

39:36

sorts of of reasons why people

39:38

might want to open their relationship, not least

39:40

of which is to benefit their relationship. Um.

39:43

There are many deeply loving, intimate sorts

39:45

of connections. I get the sense that Steve and Julia

39:48

have a relationship like this, where where

39:50

the the non monogamy that

39:52

they've sort of written into the relationship actually

39:55

serves to strengthen the relationship itself,

39:57

among other goals. Um, and that is indeed

39:59

one of them. May your reasons why people might want

40:01

to do this. Some relationships can benefit

40:03

from opening them up, especially

40:06

if people are compatible in lots of ways.

40:08

But one person, say, for example, has a strong

40:10

a stronger sex drive or or different

40:12

sorts of sexual kinks than somebody

40:15

else does, which how often does that happen? A

40:17

lot? So?

40:19

So getting straight into that, how

40:22

would a couple like, let's say you take a couple

40:24

they are not open at all? Um, how

40:27

does that couple know if an

40:29

open relationship is one an

40:31

option to an option that will help

40:33

them or hurt them and overall

40:35

just a good idea? Well

40:37

overall. One of the great perils of being human

40:40

is that you can't know. You cannot predict

40:42

the future. And you know, I enjoyed

40:44

listening to to Julie and Steve process

40:47

um how they go about their consensual

40:49

non monogamy, the Steve's openness in the

40:51

relationship, and it's it's um. They

40:53

didn't talk about it as something definitive. Julia

40:56

raised the possibility that who

40:58

knows, this is what I'm doing for now, but for later.

41:01

You know, it's nice that I'll have opportunities available

41:03

to me. There won't be strict rules about these sorts of

41:05

things to me. A question that also comes

41:07

to mind to add on top of that is, let's

41:09

say that there's there is a problem like you had mentioned.

41:12

Um, you know, maybe one has more

41:14

sex drive, one is always wanting to try new

41:16

things or or any of the anything

41:18

in a relationship. In my mind,

41:20

I'm thinking if I was in that situation, I would

41:23

think, how do I reignite the spark

41:25

with this one person? But I think there's

41:27

also this second mindset that goes,

41:29

maybe it's time for me to find that that

41:32

specific spark elsewhere, so that this

41:35

relationship doesn't have to carry the burden

41:37

of of those problems, you

41:39

know what I mean? So, how do you know how to

41:41

differentiate, how to discern which way to go?

41:44

Well, you have two different situations. One is

41:46

where you start entirely monogamous

41:48

and then have to broach the conversation. That's a very

41:51

delicate conversation to broach because we

41:53

have these very strict rules about

41:55

the way people are supposed to behave um,

41:58

you know, in twenty one century America, right, these

42:00

rules differ across time, and so it

42:02

can be very, very hurtful to bring up the topic.

42:04

In a case like Steven Julia, they knew from the

42:06

start um what the contours of the relationship

42:09

were, and either option has

42:11

risk. I mean I would I would ask

42:13

all of the people who think consensual

42:15

not monogamy, like, that's terrifying. Why

42:17

would you do that? There's so much risk. Well, I'll tell

42:19

you what. It's not like commitment

42:22

to permanent monogamy is risk free. It's

42:24

not like Americans today have just totally nailed

42:26

it right, like we know exactly how to do the perfect

42:28

marriage, and as you can see, nobody's divorcing

42:30

and everyone's happy. These things are very

42:32

very complicated. So I don't think you can

42:35

say we're going to open it and it's going to be

42:37

fine, because our ability to know

42:40

how that's going to play out is less than certain.

42:42

Maybe we think we're opening up a little bit, but

42:45

then somebody falls more in love than he intended

42:47

to. Um. Maybe somebody thinks

42:49

she'll be fine with having it be open, but then

42:51

the pain comes and you know, she didn't anticipate

42:54

it, and so be it. So there

42:56

is definitely risk in doing it. I

42:58

just don't think that the question really is

43:01

is there risk in consensual nonmonogamy,

43:03

because the answers yes, we should skip it.

43:06

I think we need to be aware what the risks

43:08

are of monogamy, which includes things

43:10

like boredom, frustration, sexlessness.

43:13

There's all sorts of risks that come from sixty

43:16

years of committed exclusivity.

43:18

And how do those risks play out for

43:20

us relative to the risks of consensual

43:22

nonmonogamy and for many relationships,

43:24

many people, the best plan is going to

43:26

be monogamy, but certainly not for everybody.

43:29

You and and you had mentioned this exact

43:31

thing of of how it's not like we've really

43:33

nailed monogamy down. You know, divorce

43:35

rates are at an all time high, and and

43:37

it's not really not necessarily

43:40

you know, proven that that's the that's the

43:42

way to go. Um, in your

43:44

in your studies, have you found any specific

43:47

statistic that shows maybe open

43:49

relationships have a higher success rate than monogamous

43:51

relationships. So the the

43:53

ideal study here is basically impossible.

43:56

So so to draw causal conclusions, what

43:58

we really want to do is take a stay ample

44:00

of a few thousand people and randomly assigned some

44:02

of them to have a monogamous relationship and some

44:04

of them to have a consensually non monogamous relationship.

44:07

For for practical reasons and

44:10

um ethical reasons, you can't really

44:12

run that study. So the best studies

44:15

really that are available at this time is

44:17

to take samples of people who have opted in right,

44:19

So, among people who have opted

44:22

into a consentually non monogamous

44:24

relationship versus a monogamous

44:26

relationship, who's who's happier if

44:28

either right? Is there a difference? And that work

44:30

has now been done. So if you take a

44:32

sample of people who are consentually

44:34

non monogamous, and the study I'm thinking of is they

44:37

did a really good job. So these are all heterosexual

44:39

couples, that is, a male identifying person

44:41

with a primary partner who is female identifying

44:44

or vice versa, and open

44:46

right, so they have a primary partner of the other sex

44:48

and non monogamous, and they compare that to a

44:50

sample of people who also have UM

44:53

male identifying with female identifying or vice

44:55

versa. But they've adopted a monogamous norm. So,

44:57

so far as we can tell, the major differ

45:00

prints is the norm they have in their relationship.

45:02

UM, So what are the differences when it comes

45:04

to things like satisfaction and commitment?

45:07

No differences. There are no differences

45:09

in terms of overall level of satisfaction or

45:11

average level of satisfaction. There are minor

45:14

differences in terms of things

45:16

like trust, um,

45:19

And which way do you think that effect

45:21

might go? Because I think if anything goes

45:24

the other way, So the consensually non

45:26

monogamous relationships are a little bit

45:28

more trusting than the

45:31

UH than the monogamous relationships.

45:34

And I think it's partly the things that that we saw

45:36

from from Steven Julia, where this

45:38

doing this stuff well, having a primary partner

45:40

and also seeing other people is is emotionally

45:43

fraught and it requires additional

45:45

levels of processing and conversation, and

45:48

so I think that there is some benefit

45:50

that comes from those sorts of

45:52

conversations. Once again, let me underscore

45:54

This is not a risk free option. People can

45:56

get very very hurt in ways they don't anticipate,

45:59

that can fall in love and is they don't anticipate. But

46:01

there are all sorts of upsides as well of

46:03

this type of relationship. For again,

46:06

for the people who feel comfortable trying it. You know,

46:08

I'm surprised, but I'm also not necessarily

46:10

surprised about that trust finding because

46:12

you know, Juliet mentioned at first and

46:15

I don't mean to speak about you, what like you're

46:17

not here, Julia, but she mentioned at first,

46:19

you know, that she didn't want to know, and

46:22

then the kind of the anxiety of not knowing, I'm

46:25

thinking to myself, Yeah, if I didn't

46:27

know, then any time my significant

46:29

other would leave, if my girlfriend would leave for the grocery store,

46:31

I'm like, just gonna go talk to that fucking guy

46:33

at the grocery store. But now

46:35

that you know, I think having the knowledge

46:38

and having the open conversation pun

46:40

intended having the open conversation

46:42

about hey, this is this is how I feel,

46:45

and everything always builds more trust. So if

46:47

you're if you're kind of covering the

46:50

infidelity with hey,

46:53

my heart is open and this is where I go. It

46:56

actually makes a lot of sense that

46:58

that you would have more trust a relationship

47:00

like that. Yeah, one quick thing on

47:02

on terminology. So the reason why people

47:05

who are are you know, receptive to this

47:08

lifestyle arrangement, this type of relationship

47:11

use the clunky language of non

47:13

monogamy and consensual nonmonogamy is because

47:15

language like infidelity,

47:17

UM and and adultery, this is usually

47:19

language of people being dishonest. So

47:22

so infidelity I don't I don't think there's any infidelity

47:24

UM in Stephen and Julia's relationship.

47:27

But in a non monogamous relationship, it's

47:29

not infidelity, it's openness, it is honesty.

47:31

That's that's so again.

47:33

I could talk about about people in general because I mostly

47:36

focus on data, but because UM, Steve and

47:38

Julia were so generous with their story, we can use

47:40

them as an example. I hope, I hope that's fine with everybody.

47:43

Um, they have this this emotional

47:45

processing and what does that do? Like they come

47:47

out, you know, he comes out of the room. He's just at the conversation

47:49

and the two of them sit on the couch, maybe pour a glass of wine

47:51

and have a conversation about what it means and it's

47:53

an opportunity for her to say, for example,

47:55

I'm not putting words in your mouth, Julia, just sort of speaking

47:58

hypothetically like that was a little hard on me.

48:00

And he can say, I know, and I'm sensitive

48:02

to that, and it's very important to me that you feel loved.

48:04

And they can take this opportunity to share

48:07

what they feel in their sensitivity

48:09

about those things, and the norms in favor

48:11

of doing that are very high. In

48:13

the poly community in particular, there

48:15

are very very strong norms

48:18

in favor of lots of communication. It's

48:21

one of these things where I actually feel like the monogamous

48:23

world has a whole lot to learn from

48:25

the consensually non monogamous world

48:28

in terms of how to communicate, just like

48:30

I think that UM, the the

48:32

sort of vanilla world has a whole lot

48:34

to work to learn from the kink or

48:37

b D s M community about the nature of consent.

48:39

I think people UM who are monogamous

48:42

have a lot to learn about how to communicate

48:44

effectively about emotions and hurt feelings

48:47

UM from people who are practicing uh

48:49

non monogamousts. I totally

48:51

agree. I mean, I'm just a sponge today, Like

48:53

it's really it's really the

48:56

level of I mean because I think in

48:58

my mind, in my relations Jim, if you can talk

49:00

or in any relationship, if you can talk about

49:03

your heart in its fullness, then

49:05

you can talk about anything like You're not gonna

49:07

get offended by tiny little things, if you can have

49:09

big, broader conversations of of open

49:11

honesty. UM,

49:14

your advice for a couple sometimes centers around

49:16

adjusting your expectations

49:19

from your relationship or from what your marriage

49:21

could do for you. How does that apply

49:24

here with open relationships and how is it a little

49:26

bit different. Well. One of the

49:28

things that that's especially enlightening

49:31

about studying this stuff is all

49:33

of us are born into a certain cultural

49:35

and historical moment, and

49:37

we think that we know exactly what marriages

49:39

and we act as if marriage has sort of always

49:42

been like this or or else. We look at at

49:44

you know, leave it to Beaver and say that marriage

49:46

was always like that before, But it wasn't. The nine

49:49

fifties was a bizarro world that existed

49:51

for like fifteen years, and it just happened

49:53

to be the time that TV came in. Marriage was

49:55

never like that before, and it was never really like that after.

49:58

Um, so today we have

50:00

a whole range of different expectations. And

50:03

like I said, it didn't used to be the case

50:05

that people talked a lot about marrying

50:07

their best friend, or about you know, living

50:09

an authentic life, and and about you

50:12

know, being in a marriage that helps us grow as individuals.

50:14

That's very much of the now. And

50:16

and in my book, I I track the

50:19

history of these ideas and and this is where

50:21

in the third major era of marriage

50:23

in America, I call it the self expressive era,

50:25

where these sorts of emotional and

50:27

psychological needs are foundational

50:29

to our expectations of marriage. That

50:32

is, we think that a marriage that doesn't deliver

50:34

these things is inadequate. Now, in the

50:36

fifties that wasn't really the case, and certainly

50:38

in eighteen hundred that wasn't the case when really

50:40

it was about food production and shelter

50:43

um. But these days we have these sorts of expectations.

50:46

The thing that was most fun about writing the book

50:48

is that I had started thinking that these

50:50

changes are bad, that basically

50:53

we are ruining marriage. We're putting so

50:55

many expectations on this one relationship

50:58

that there's no way it can withstand all the weight

51:00

that we're throwing on it, I came to think

51:02

something different. In the end, I came to think that when

51:04

you're throwing all these expectations, it is

51:07

true that a marriage

51:09

that would have been totally adequate for our

51:11

grandparents may disappoint us today.

51:13

But it's also true that a level

51:16

of marital connection is possible today that

51:18

was out of reach in an era where we weren't even

51:20

trying. And so so the calibration

51:23

of what is it that we're going to

51:26

look to our marriage to do in terms of our deep

51:28

emotional fulfillment, in terms of our sexual fulfillment,

51:31

in terms of helping us, inspiring us in our

51:33

career, if we can play to the strengths

51:35

of the marriage on those things, and also figuring

51:38

out, you know where am I not ready

51:40

to look to just this one person? So so

51:42

Steve has a philosophical objection and

51:44

many people do to monogamy. He's not willing

51:46

to look to one person for just that. Do they have the

51:49

sort of relationship that they can say, look,

51:51

that is a reasonable place for you to look elsewhere

51:54

to fulfill some of your needs. And we don't

51:56

have strict rules about which needs you

51:58

you need to meet here versus in this other sort

52:00

of context. I'm

52:02

perplexed right now. I am, like,

52:04

I'm just this is so cool.

52:07

I'm really grateful for all three of you guys for being

52:09

on the show. I have one more question before we take a break.

52:11

You've studied now romance in general,

52:14

but even these topics for decades.

52:16

Now, what's something that you wish

52:18

people knew People like me who are literally

52:21

probably listening to this podcast, like, whoa,

52:23

I never even thought about it like that.

52:26

What's something that you wish people knew about the

52:28

benefits, like the real benefits of having

52:30

an OsO, either romantic or

52:32

or otherwise, well,

52:35

that it can benefit the primary relationship. And

52:37

again, I'm not a zealot for this stuff. I'm not a

52:39

fanatic saying everybody should be doing this, Like Steve,

52:41

I think there are very very serious, you

52:44

know, risks involved with this. It's not for everybody.

52:46

But but I think the assumption that if

52:49

there's some amount of non monogamy,

52:51

some amount of non exclusivity, that suggests

52:53

some sort of failing in the primary

52:56

relationship, and if if the relationship were

52:58

good enough, then there would be no

53:00

need to look elsewhere. I think it

53:02

is the wrong logic um. Certainly

53:04

that's true in some situations, but it may well be

53:06

the case that you know, we're unbelievably

53:09

compatible in all sorts of ways, and this is a way

53:11

that's that you know, monogamy isn't a huge priority

53:13

to either one of us, and we both think it's fun to be

53:15

with other people, or we find like we have a deep intellectual

53:18

connection with somebody else that doesn't in any

53:20

way step on the connection that we feel

53:22

with our primary partner, that that having

53:25

an additional partner can actually benefit

53:28

the relationship. And I didn't talk about the relevant

53:30

studies here, but for example, there's one study that looks

53:32

at how intimate we feel with our partner as

53:35

a function of whether we're in a monogamous or

53:37

a non monogamous relationship. Here again,

53:39

this is a separate study from before. No difference.

53:41

Right, You might think that intimacy is this limited

53:43

commodity, and for each minute that

53:46

Steve talks to some other woman, that that's

53:48

a minute of intimacy that he doesn't get with Julia.

53:50

There's no evidence that that's the case. Wow,

53:53

we're just factual, We're just we're

53:55

just Wow, this is this

53:58

is so sick. We're taking a break, but it's a quick break

54:00

because we gotta talk. We gotta keep talking about this. Don't

54:02

go anywhere. We

54:04

are back. I told you it's going to be a quick break.

54:06

We are here talking about love hacks.

54:09

Uh. This is I'm so excited about

54:11

this, this whole episode, Like, I can't wait

54:13

for people to hear this. Steven and Julia

54:16

from your guys experience, what's something that you wish

54:18

totally monogamous couples like me, what's

54:20

one thing you wish they knew about being an open relationship?

54:23

I think just that it's kind of what I've

54:25

been saying the whole time, where it's like it's not that different

54:28

from any other kind of

54:30

problem, and it's not necessarily the

54:32

solution to your problem. Like Eli

54:34

was saying, I don't think that it's for everyone

54:37

or the solution to every problem.

54:40

But it can be a gateway to connection,

54:42

and it can be it's an

54:45

option. It's a possible solution

54:47

to something, again, not always the solution.

54:50

But also because just because that's

54:52

not there doesn't mean you don't also have relationship

54:55

problems. You have relationship problems no

54:57

matter what. So it's all about

54:59

like, what are those problems?

55:01

And if you're a monogamous that

55:03

doesn't mean, like I said too, that you are

55:06

having any more intimacy or that

55:08

you are not. So as long as you are getting what you

55:10

want from your relationship, who

55:12

cares how it's how it's working. Um

55:15

for me, I would have to say, um,

55:17

you know it's it's funny. My social

55:19

media is so funny because my Instagram

55:22

is all Julia like so much Julie

55:24

too much Julia, and my Twitter in

55:26

yeah, and my

55:29

Twitter is I joke around a lot

55:31

about being non monogamous and babes

55:33

and checking out babes and doing stuff that

55:36

nothing crass or anything. You know I have, Uh,

55:38

I have a lot of like a women friends

55:41

and a big women audience and stuff too. So

55:43

you could feel they would get mad at first

55:46

if I would tweet about it, because they love Julius

55:48

so much. They fall in love with her on my Instagram

55:50

and so they're kind of protective of her. But

55:53

you could see over time they understand it.

55:55

It's like, oh, but obviously they're staying

55:57

together and Steve loves her. It's

56:00

almost like, listen, if you will

56:02

allow me to be free,

56:04

like truly free then um,

56:07

like you will own my heart in

56:09

like so many ways. So I

56:11

think by by, I think time has

56:13

played out and showed to our comedy

56:15

community and everything that you know, if you can

56:18

allow the other person to be themselves,

56:20

that's such a loyalty and like

56:22

a true fidelity of my heart exists.

56:25

It's almost by you know, that's stupid old

56:27

saying that if you like open your hand

56:29

and let the bird fly away, then it's and

56:32

it comes back it's yours that we that's

56:34

truly like how it's played out. I feel

56:36

what do you give? No, I was just gonna say no, I agree,

56:38

and I feel like I haven't. I feel like I haven't said I love

56:40

you enough on this Uh like

56:43

that I feel like it's implied we're married and

56:45

I love you, but it is. I think that's the

56:47

thing that you ask yourself most

56:49

importantly, that it's like if you everything

56:51

that you are doing should be coming from love,

56:54

and that might mean like loving someone, also

56:56

can mean breaking up with someone or having

56:59

it not work or whatever. But I think that anything

57:01

in that thing, as much as it is a clichee, it is

57:03

very true that if you are like too

57:07

afraid to try the thing for fear

57:09

of losing the relationship. It's not yours

57:12

you're holding. You were having to hold it under a condition

57:14

that is not real. That's what

57:16

I at least tell myself is that I'm like, if

57:18

I really love this person, then I need

57:21

to love them exactly

57:23

as they are. That doesn't mean I'm not entitled

57:25

to my feelings about it, or that I can't still be

57:28

hurt or asked them to, you know, change

57:30

behaviors, whatever. But but

57:32

if you really love someone, it cannot

57:34

be conditional on them

57:36

doing only behaving in one certain

57:39

way. So I think that remember

57:41

reminding yourself that you

57:43

that you love this person like is

57:46

is the thing too? Write Eli

57:48

you had something that I

57:50

have a question for you. So it wouldn't surprise

57:52

me if if some of the listeners are

57:55

thinking, really it's not okay

57:57

to ask possibly even demand

57:59

any type of sacrifice? Um,

58:01

any thoughts on that, like in principle

58:04

are there? Is it okay to make those demands? I think

58:06

you absolutely can make those demands.

58:08

I think you can. You can always ask

58:10

for anything, um,

58:13

And it doesn't mean

58:15

that you get them. And I

58:17

think, more importantly, if you aren't sure

58:19

why you are asking them to make that demand

58:22

if you don't pass through. And mind

58:24

you, my mom is a psychiatrist. I've been

58:26

in therapy. I'm like a real therapy person.

58:28

I've I've read all the not

58:31

not all the books, but every

58:34

book ever, every book, every

58:36

one was just published. Yeah,

58:39

this is this is something that I have.

58:41

I have thought through a lot and all those things.

58:44

So I understand that, like that is, we

58:46

aren't taught to like think like this necessarily.

58:49

But I think again, this idea of

58:51

like, if you aren't sure why you're demanding

58:53

that of someone, it's going to pop up

58:55

in another way in your relationship, likely

58:58

that doesn't have anything to do with monogamy

59:01

or not. So if it's a boundary

59:03

for you and you know that about yourself, then

59:06

yeah, again you can ask, you can ask whatever you want,

59:08

but you have to be prepared to deal

59:11

with the consequences if their answer is

59:13

no. And if it's really a boundary, if it

59:15

was more of a way to like manipulate

59:18

someone's behavior instead of a I

59:20

know myself, I know that I'm not going to be comfortable

59:22

with this, Like then it's coming from a

59:24

boundary love place as opposed

59:26

to a like, you're my husband,

59:28

I'm allowed to tell you you need to do

59:30

this thing the right I want to. I

59:32

want to. It's

59:36

because she read everybody. It's because she read every

59:38

book ever. So you both

59:40

you both brought something up and and it made me

59:43

want to kind of make a statement. But I'm

59:45

still gonna come in it as a question because

59:47

I am such a newbie into

59:49

this conversation. It seems like

59:52

either way, a non monogamous

59:54

relationship is definitely for a strong couple.

59:57

You know, there's a lot of couples who choose

59:59

not monogamy as like a last resort

1:00:02

to a relationship that's not strong. Um,

1:00:05

but what are some markers that you and your

1:00:07

relationship could survive or even thrive

1:00:10

if it were to open up? Lak,

1:00:15

She's read all the books. I've every

1:00:18

book. Yeah, Well, I mean the other thing is is you're You're

1:00:20

you're unique in the sense of like you

1:00:23

hit that crossroads where you were like

1:00:26

this is a path that we're about to take. What

1:00:28

what what gave you those inklings that like this

1:00:30

is the right move to do something

1:00:32

that you've never really done before. Well, I

1:00:35

do want Julia to answer, but we are very

1:00:37

much obsessed with a

1:00:39

thing has to last forever

1:00:42

or as for as long as possible. To

1:00:44

me, if if you're using this stuff and you end

1:00:47

up breaking up, it's because you needed to break

1:00:49

up, and that's okay. And if at some point

1:00:51

Julie and I need to break up,

1:00:53

I mean, that was a real This is my second marriage,

1:00:56

and I, like, I thought I was never gonna

1:00:58

get married again. But we've talked about it so

1:01:00

much. I knew would make her so

1:01:02

happy, and I was, I'm surprised

1:01:04

at how happy it's made me. But

1:01:07

I just thought about it and I was like, I just realistically,

1:01:11

I can't see a way. I'm older

1:01:13

now and she's older, we're not kids. I

1:01:16

can't see it ending. If it does end,

1:01:18

if we our value systems change or

1:01:20

we want different things, that happens with life. But

1:01:22

to me, it's never about how can

1:01:24

we make this last forever. It's

1:01:27

how can we both be the healthiest,

1:01:29

most full versions of ourselves And

1:01:31

and that might be hopefully that means we stay

1:01:33

together forever, but it might

1:01:36

not mean that. So I think it's

1:01:38

important to to realize that people breaking

1:01:40

up is absolutely not the end of the world.

1:01:42

Some of the worst relationships. I know people

1:01:44

have stayed together forever. Julia,

1:01:47

No, I was gonna say, I think first and foremost,

1:01:49

if you are thinking about it, then it's

1:01:52

maybe worth exploring. Doesn't mean necessarily

1:01:54

actually literally opening up,

1:01:56

but I'm a big fan of like, if something

1:01:59

philosophically works, you should

1:02:01

kind of be able to apply it to other

1:02:04

things besides that thing. So

1:02:06

if you are feeling stagnant in

1:02:08

some kind of way, maybe it's not literally opening

1:02:10

up your relationship, but maybe it is uh,

1:02:13

hanging out with your friends or just

1:02:16

even asking yourself, am I

1:02:18

identifying with this partnership?

1:02:20

Like what would it mean to me if this partnership

1:02:23

didn't work? And what fears do that bring up

1:02:25

for for me? About my self worth?

1:02:27

About uh, what pressures

1:02:29

am I maybe putting on this person that I'm not aware

1:02:31

of that I am saying, Like is there

1:02:33

do I want to go back to school? Do I

1:02:35

wanna like start up a new hobby?

1:02:38

Is there other things? I think it's again

1:02:40

this the same thing. Is this idea

1:02:43

of like, oh, our relationship is

1:02:45

the problem. I think sometimes it's

1:02:47

your problem and it's not. It's not

1:02:49

like because the relationship isn't working, it's because

1:02:52

you aren't working in some way, and not

1:02:54

to say that it's like your fault, but uh,

1:02:56

I think it's like being not being afraid

1:02:58

to ask the questions, but exploring,

1:03:00

like, well, what what are my resistances

1:03:03

to that in not opening up?

1:03:05

Or like where am I if I don't do it in

1:03:07

this way? Where else could I uh

1:03:10

be more open in my

1:03:12

life? Yeah? Totally, Eli.

1:03:14

You you you put your hand up so I know you can speak

1:03:16

to this. How I would love

1:03:18

for people to think about monogamy

1:03:20

is a Titanic ask. The idea

1:03:23

that you will not have emotional

1:03:25

or romantic or sexual um

1:03:28

connections with anybody but me for the next fifties

1:03:31

sixty years is

1:03:33

gigantic, and that's fine. I think many people

1:03:35

should indeed make that ask. It's the best option

1:03:38

for many many people. But treating

1:03:40

it as some default, as some obvious

1:03:42

thing that we're gonna do and then we're gonna start getting

1:03:44

to what we're really asking of each other, that's

1:03:47

a risk. That's a risk of we're going to ask

1:03:49

more than is appropriate given what we're

1:03:51

willing to invest. And and so what I would

1:03:53

urge people to do is to be deliberate about

1:03:55

this decision. Do we want to commit

1:03:57

to a lifetime of monogamy together? If so, what

1:04:00

does that mean? What does that mean in terms of my fitness

1:04:02

regiment? What does that mean in terms of of how

1:04:04

I'm going to, you know, manage my work

1:04:06

related travel and make sure that I don't put myself

1:04:08

in risky situations, make sure that

1:04:11

I don't become a comedian. Right, there are all

1:04:13

sorts of things that we're gonna need to calibrate

1:04:15

in order to make that happen. And and the problem

1:04:18

is, because everybody've used this as that's

1:04:20

obvious default, people

1:04:22

aren't engaging with the size the

1:04:24

magnitude of the ask. So God

1:04:26

bless you want to be monogamous forever, that's

1:04:29

terrific. What are the things you're not

1:04:31

going to ask of your marriage? What are the things that you're gonna

1:04:33

do in order to make sure that monogamy can actually

1:04:35

be plausible for the two of you over the next

1:04:37

however many years that you hope the relationship lasts.

1:04:41

I was gonna say, let me backtrack. I think demanding

1:04:43

that your partner not become a comedian is

1:04:46

the only thing that you're allowed to demand in or the only

1:04:48

demand that is across the board.

1:04:51

I know, I know, I totally I love that because it

1:04:54

is the thing I think, no matter what the

1:04:56

default that there is no kind of relationship

1:04:59

that doesn't require immense communication

1:05:01

and deliberation and self discovery

1:05:04

and sacrifice in all of those ways. Is

1:05:07

monogamy or not. All relationships require

1:05:10

work and and thought

1:05:12

and effort and all of those things.

1:05:14

It seems to me, as I've as I'm

1:05:17

learning this real time firsthand,

1:05:19

you know, learning on this podcast, the

1:05:22

biggest thing is like, and it's so corny,

1:05:24

but it's like, you gotta follow your heart, you know, Julia,

1:05:26

you said, sometimes do it. Sometimes following your

1:05:29

heart and really loving somebody is leaving them

1:05:31

and breaking up with them, like you had mentioned as well, Steve,

1:05:33

Like, it's not following your heart, is

1:05:35

not staying in a thirty year marriage where you're

1:05:37

miserable and you secretly wish that you were

1:05:39

you know that you were somewhere else with someone else.

1:05:42

Um And and the same thing is following your heart is knowing

1:05:44

Hey, this you know, even though monogamy

1:05:47

is whatever, this is the main popular thing, it's

1:05:50

not it's not where my heart goes. I gotta go this

1:05:52

way and with a partner, It's like, Yo,

1:05:54

this is something that's really important to me. It's following

1:05:56

my heart. And every great relationship I

1:05:59

think incourage is the other person to follow

1:06:01

their heart and chase after what their

1:06:03

you know, what their desires are. And so that's

1:06:05

something that I really took away, especially

1:06:08

from this whole episode. But I do want to close

1:06:10

out that this segment is called love hacks,

1:06:12

and and the reason why it's called that is Eli in your

1:06:14

book, Uh, you talk about

1:06:16

love hacks. Can you explain that, um

1:06:18

and and tell us maybe one of your favorite love

1:06:21

hacks? Sure? Well,

1:06:23

yeah, I mean the book um Is

1:06:26

is really about how we calibrate our expectations

1:06:28

to what we as a couple can actually achieve.

1:06:31

UM sort of helps people think well about

1:06:33

that. So in some sense, the book

1:06:35

is a supply and demand story. It says, you

1:06:37

can demand whatever you want to ask

1:06:39

of the relationship, but then the supply matters.

1:06:41

Are we compatible enough, are we investing enough

1:06:43

time in the relationship? Are we keeping ourselves fit

1:06:46

enough to be attractive to our partner for fifty years?

1:06:48

These are the sorts of supply and demand calibrations.

1:06:51

But there's a little bit of a short cut that that's

1:06:53

not going to make a bad relationship a good one, but

1:06:55

it can help around the edges, which is the the idea of

1:06:57

love hacks. Are there quick and dirty things we

1:06:59

can do to make the relationship

1:07:01

a little bit stronger that don't require

1:07:04

big date nights and big conversations, that

1:07:06

that require relatively little investment, relatively

1:07:08

little supply, but that can increase the

1:07:10

quality of the relationship. UM. It's based

1:07:12

a little bit on the on the observation by the novelist

1:07:15

Marcel Proust who says that mystery is

1:07:17

not about traveling to new places, but about

1:07:19

looking with new eyes. And in the book,

1:07:21

I talked about eight different you know, science

1:07:23

backed love hacks. UM. One of the

1:07:25

ones that you know we created in our lab here at Northwestern

1:07:28

is we we recruited a hundred and twenty

1:07:30

married couples. We randomly assigned

1:07:32

half of them to a condition where they thought

1:07:34

about conflict in their marriage from the perspective

1:07:37

of a neutral third party who wants the best for

1:07:39

everybody. One of them was in a control condition

1:07:41

where they didn't do that task. And we found that even

1:07:43

though UM, the writing task took only

1:07:45

twenty one minutes. We found that people who

1:07:47

had immersed themselves in this third

1:07:50

party perspective, how can we think about conflict

1:07:52

from this perspective of a neutral third party who

1:07:54

wants the best for everyone? That just re

1:07:56

orienting your thinking in that way made

1:07:58

your relationship better over a subsequent year. Wow,

1:08:02

and you and and and I also want to touch on

1:08:04

this is you have mentioned this during the break,

1:08:06

is that people act as if the

1:08:09

study of romance, or or open relationships

1:08:12

or or consensual monogamy is

1:08:14

just kind of like table talk.

1:08:16

But in reality, there's so

1:08:18

much research behind this. And

1:08:20

you're obviously a firsthand example

1:08:23

of of how much research has done

1:08:25

in books that have been written, including your own,

1:08:27

including uh and I want you to shout

1:08:29

it out. I can't exactly remember what. It's something

1:08:31

slut um but that

1:08:34

is actually not scientific um. But but

1:08:36

it is. It is a book about relationships. There are

1:08:38

there are many books books about relationships.

1:08:41

Not all of them are based in the data. In fact, very

1:08:43

few are. And it's one of the major reasons

1:08:45

why I wanted to write the book is

1:08:47

is there are thousands of people who have devoted

1:08:50

their entire careers to collecting data

1:08:52

about what makes relationships better or worse

1:08:54

just on average. Right, you can't really say

1:08:56

and therefore you you specific couple

1:08:59

this is how you should to it. But it provides

1:09:01

useful clues to know that these sorts

1:09:03

of behaviors tend on average to be beneficial,

1:09:05

these sorts of behaviors tend on average to

1:09:07

be particularly harmful. And

1:09:09

there are I don't know tens of thousands, hundreds

1:09:11

of thousands of journal articles cloistered in academic

1:09:14

libraries, and so one of the things I wanted

1:09:16

to do was to distill what I thought were some of the

1:09:18

main learnings from that scholarly

1:09:21

literature and and bring it and bring them

1:09:23

to the public. Well, you

1:09:25

definitely did, um and and and

1:09:27

I'm so grateful that, uh

1:09:29

that that you were here on the podcast, as well as

1:09:31

Julia and Steve. You know, growing up

1:09:33

not knowing anybody who was even in an consensual,

1:09:36

non monogamous relationship until just

1:09:38

a couple of years ago, seeing

1:09:41

not only a consensual non monogamous

1:09:43

relationship, but also seeing how much love

1:09:46

it's just as strong as my parents

1:09:48

who have been monogamous for thirty years with

1:09:50

each other, and understanding that

1:09:53

the overall goal in a relationship

1:09:55

across the board is to just be open and honest

1:09:57

and loving with each other. I know that for a moment

1:09:59

it kind of became like the live

1:10:02

version of breaking down your relationship. And

1:10:04

so I'm so grateful that you guys came on, and also the

1:10:06

fact that you guys are like the gold standard for

1:10:08

love in itself and so um

1:10:11

it means a lot to me. And I think it's

1:10:13

time for my favorite segment of

1:10:16

the show so that people can see all of these

1:10:18

pictures of Julia, like you're talking about Steve.

1:10:20

It's called not So Shameless promo.

1:10:23

Uh, just tell us about what you're working on, what

1:10:25

you're excited about, and where we can find you on social

1:10:27

media. Go for it. Oh, I've got

1:10:29

a bunch of podcasts. I have a religion podcast

1:10:32

I used to be a minister called Who's

1:10:34

Your God with Amy Miller, a movie podcast called

1:10:37

Us from the Vista, and a horny guys

1:10:39

news podcast called The Male Gauge. You

1:10:42

can find me at Big hern on Twitter and

1:10:44

Hernia on Instagram. Hernia

1:10:46

did you get Is that actually just spelled like

1:10:48

hernia? I can't believe I got it.

1:10:51

I cannot believe that you've got that.

1:10:53

That's amazing. People should follow

1:10:55

you just for the just for the handle, just

1:10:57

for the handle. People always say oh

1:11:00

Hernia, like like, well,

1:11:02

just refer to them him as if that is

1:11:04

his name. So it's a good one. That's a good sign.

1:11:07

I love it. Julia hit Us listening not so shameless

1:11:09

promo. Sure, I am at Julia Logan

1:11:12

on all platforms, as you mentioned

1:11:14

in my intro. I also I'm a co host

1:11:16

of an astrology comedy podcast

1:11:18

called What's Your Sign? Uh. If

1:11:20

you're into astrology or not into

1:11:22

astrology, I personally love having

1:11:25

haters listen. Uh. I love

1:11:27

talking to astro haters. It's one of my favorite

1:11:29

things. I am truly fueled by the

1:11:31

astro haters. So you could

1:11:33

you could totally hate it and absolutely

1:11:35

listen. But that's at What's Your Sign

1:11:38

Podcast on all of the platforms.

1:11:40

Um. I I'm gonna start offering

1:11:42

astrology readings, so if you're interested in that, slide

1:11:45

in my d m Eli finkel Um

1:11:47

the author of The All or Nothing Marriage, a professor

1:11:49

at Northwestern University. The book tries

1:11:51

to take what we know, take a data

1:11:54

based approach. What we know about relationships

1:11:56

um to help people figure out how they

1:11:58

themselves can build wronger relationships

1:12:00

as possible. I'm on social media

1:12:03

handle is Eli J Finkel f I

1:12:05

n K E L and primarily on Twitter,

1:12:07

but Paul Show on Facebook, Instagram, etcetera.

1:12:10

I love that you know you can always find me at alex

1:12:12

Iono everywhere. It's the best part about having a weird

1:12:14

last name ai O n oh.

1:12:17

But more importantly, please make sure you rate our

1:12:19

podcast and subscribe. You can leave a

1:12:21

review. That is how we grow. But

1:12:24

I'm so grateful that you can and listen today and

1:12:26

I'll talk to you guys next time. We

1:12:34

really want you to get the help you need, so if you

1:12:36

need help, please seek independent advice from

1:12:38

a competent healthcare or mental health professional.

1:12:41

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1:12:43

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1:12:46

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1:12:48

Heart Media or its employees. This podcast

1:12:50

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1:12:52

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1:12:54

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1:12:59

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1:13:01

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or opinions made on this podcast. Wol

1:13:05

if that's a doozy