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all summer long. Hey

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everyone, hi, hello. Welcome

0:33

to another exciting episode

0:35

of Alice in Rosen

0:45

is your new best friend. I'm

0:48

sitting here in my studio with

0:50

TV writer, showrunner, author,

0:53

and more Michael Jammin. Hello.

0:55

Hi, thank you for being my new best friend. You're

0:58

welcome. How do you feel like our friendship is

1:00

going so far? I think it's going great. I think, you

1:02

know, thank you for letting me bar

1:04

your car for the weekend. That's nice. Oh sure, yeah. And I

1:07

helped you move. Yeah, which I felt

1:09

like was very, yeah. That's

1:11

that intense ask given that I'm a

1:13

new best friend. It was fast of you,

1:15

but okay. Yeah. I appreciate it. And

1:17

we moved into a walk-up. We moved.

1:19

Yeah. We live together now too. Yeah.

1:22

Yeah. I know I have a

1:24

policy which I will not

1:26

help people move. You've never done

1:28

that? I have, but I hit a point where I'm

1:30

like, I don't want to do this anymore. But

1:32

I don't think people, I think, I don't get

1:35

asked anymore. Yeah, right. You don't get asked. Yeah.

1:37

I think it's an age thing. It's like, I

1:39

remember hitting an age where I realized, oh

1:42

my God, I could just go to a

1:44

store and buy a couch. I don't have

1:47

to find one on the street, go to

1:49

Salvation Army or get a hand-me-down. Because in

1:51

college it was like, you'd never bought furniture.

1:53

You just, you just

1:55

acquire it somehow. Yeah, it's exactly right.

1:57

Yeah. Yeah. It's not where we grew up. I

2:01

had a roommate my senior

2:03

year college. I didn't know him. There

2:05

were four of us in the room. He was new. And

2:07

we bought a couch secondhand from the people

2:09

before us for $25. And

2:11

I'm talking to him. His name is Jay. And I'm talking, hey,

2:14

nice to meet you. We're getting to know each other. We're sitting

2:16

on the couch. And he reaches into the cushion and he pulls

2:18

out an Oreo cookie and he dusts

2:20

it off. Oh my. And he puts

2:22

in his mouth. Oh my God. I go, is

2:24

that your cookie, Jay? He goes, no, no. I

2:26

go, do you have any deal on how long

2:28

it's been there? He goes, no idea, buddy. And

2:31

then we became best friends. Bless you. Thank

2:34

you. That is hilarious. Okay. I

2:37

didn't intend to go in this direction. However, because

2:39

I just sneezed and you said, bless you, I

2:41

have to tell you this just

2:45

scandalous idea just came up on the

2:47

podcast. Do you know Jesse Joyce? He's

2:49

a comedian. He writes for Kimmel. Okay.

2:52

He, he feels

2:55

like we had an

2:57

opportunity with the generation. He has kids

2:59

the same age as mine with this

3:01

generation, but we missed it. And

3:04

the opportunity was to dispense

3:06

with saying, bless you. Yes.

3:10

And replace it with what? Nothing. Like

3:12

not even do it at all

3:14

because he's tired of this, you

3:17

know, this is social convention

3:20

that what is the point of it even. And

3:23

he said that he's gotten a lot of people

3:25

on board and everyone he's mentioned who's on board

3:28

is male. Yeah. Because

3:30

my instant reaction and Tess

3:33

Barker, who was on that show, her reaction to it

3:35

was like, I like when people say, God bless you

3:37

or Gesundheit or whatever they say. How do you feel?

3:39

You know, I read something years ago and

3:41

that it was because people thought you were

3:44

possessed by the devil. Yes. Right.

3:47

Exactly. Oh, I think isn't it like

3:49

it creates an opening for the devil when you sneeze? That's

3:51

my understanding. It's like, if they don't say it fast enough,

3:53

then the devil will, you know, climb into your, through your

3:55

nostrils. I don't really know. You know, from all the pentagrams

3:58

you have in your house, I would assume you know more

4:00

than I do about this. Yes, those are just because I

4:02

just love a star. I just love it. Well,

4:05

I don't know. You got to see something. Don't you?

4:08

I mean, I think so. Well, maybe I don't say

4:10

anything when someone coughs. No. So I guess you don't

4:12

have to. Yeah. I don't

4:14

know. It seems like a weird

4:16

line in the sand for your friend to try to

4:18

draw. I think so too. There's so many other things.

4:21

I don't know. Like it actually, like I

4:24

don't mind it when a stranger

4:26

says something and I don't feel burdened saying it

4:28

to someone else. It's actually like a nice little

4:30

moment between people. Yeah. I used

4:33

to not like saying good morning to

4:35

people, strangers, like good morning. And

4:37

I talked to a therapist, this is years ago, I

4:39

talked to a therapist about this. She's like, this is

4:41

what you're worried about. This is why you came in.

4:44

But now I say good morning to people. It's

4:46

not a problem anymore. Talk

4:49

me through feeling that it was a problem.

4:51

Because I'm thinking I don't really say good

4:53

morning to strangers. If you're on the

4:55

street, like if you're on the street passing me, you could say hi. But

4:58

I never liked saying good morning. Why? I don't

5:01

know. It felt maybe intimate or something.

5:03

I don't know. And she

5:05

didn't know either. But this was years ago.

5:09

So I was using one of these, like there

5:12

was a trainee that I got for free

5:14

at the clinic and she saw

5:16

me and she didn't know what the hell she... Neither of us knew

5:18

what we were doing. And she was like, I

5:20

don't know. What do you say to that? How

5:22

do you help someone when they're coming with that problem? What

5:25

do you do? I mean, if it were me, based

5:28

on my clinical training, what I would

5:30

want to know is what's underneath

5:32

it. Because I feel like it's probably

5:35

not, and you would know better than

5:37

I do, but I feel like it's

5:39

not just about saying good morning. It's

5:41

something else. Yeah, right. I don't know.

5:44

I remember this was just the time in life where I was

5:46

so lost. I think I just wanted somebody to talk to. Yeah.

5:50

Did she help you? No, but I liked the

5:52

fact that she tried. She was older. That's

5:54

so nice. Yeah. Oh, and older trainee, was she

5:56

making a life change? Yes. So she was probably

5:59

60 or so. Okay, what had she been doing?

6:01

I don't know. Was I supposed to ask? No,

6:04

I don't think so. I mean, some therapists will

6:06

disclose and some therapists like don't want you to

6:08

know anything about them. So she probably didn't know

6:10

yet which one she was gonna be. Yeah,

6:12

yeah. And so she was putting her

6:14

hours in, I guess. Yeah. Which was

6:17

volunteer. Right. Have you had other

6:19

therapists? Yeah, I've had. Like ones that

6:21

aren't in training? Yeah,

6:24

I've had a few. You go through

6:27

stages when you need somebody. I've

6:29

been with my current one for

6:31

a while now, but I guess I've been with

6:34

the other one. Is it in person or in Zoom? It's in person. During

6:36

the pandemic, we started doing Zoom. Yeah, so then

6:38

I started going in person and it's

6:41

close, so I like that. Are

6:43

you online or are you in person? I

6:45

was doing online and in Zoom. I didn't really like that.

6:48

And to be honest, I felt like, I

6:51

know we're gonna get into it, but the best therapy

6:53

I had was writing this book. This

6:56

book here, a paper orchestra. Well,

6:59

tell me about it. It was,

7:02

well, it's a collection of personal essays. So I

7:04

wanted to write like David Sedaris years ago. And

7:06

I was like, I love what he writes. So

7:08

I started writing my own. And

7:10

then just in the process of coming up with,

7:12

finding stories and memories, I just got a new

7:15

sense of who I was as a character. And

7:17

the character was obviously me, but it was like,

7:19

I'd asked myself questions, like, why would this character say

7:21

this? Why would he care? And it was me. Why?

7:24

That's so interesting. Yeah, so like you're using

7:26

your training or your experience as a television

7:28

writer to apply it to your own life.

7:31

But in the question of why would this character

7:33

say this, were you coming

7:35

up with your actual motivation? Like were you

7:37

understand, coming to see yourself more clearly? Yeah, I

7:40

mean, at first I'd write, in some stories I'd write

7:42

it, and I'd answer that

7:44

with, I'd write it and

7:46

felt very TV. I go, no, that's what a TV

7:48

character, why a TV character would do that or say

7:50

that. But why would I have said that? It didn't

7:53

feel right. Like it didn't feel

7:55

authentic? Didn't feel authentic, yeah. It felt clever.

7:57

Yeah, or cliche or easy. And

8:00

then I just dig a little deeper and

8:02

then I just got a much better sense

8:04

of who I was. These patterns would emerge.

8:06

And I'm like, oh my God. That's

8:09

so interesting because, okay, so I was listening

8:11

to you on a different podcast and

8:14

you were talking about... So you've been a

8:17

television writer for like 26 years, is that

8:19

right? 28 now. 28,

8:21

okay. And then during the pandemic...

8:23

No, before the pandemic, at some point, you

8:25

decided you wanted to write a book of personal essays.

8:28

You told your wife and

8:30

she said you should, quote, because you'll find

8:33

yourself. And I had made a note of

8:35

that because I wanted to say like, were

8:38

you lost to yourself?

8:41

I was in a bad space. I was

8:43

very angry about everything. Everything bothered me.

8:46

And so I guess that's what she was referring to. I

8:50

mean, I have so many questions. Where

8:53

are you now? I'm much more at peace. Since

8:56

the book, because of the book? I think so. That's

8:58

why I say when we talk about therapists, I just

9:01

need to keep writing stories. It

9:03

just helps me more. So what did you learn about

9:05

yourself? Well, one

9:07

of the things I learned is I can't believe how anxious

9:10

I am as a person. I did not know. That's

9:13

so interesting. Yeah, I mean, you definitely

9:15

as a care... You describe yourself as

9:18

you were a sensitive and anxious

9:20

kid. I never knew that. I

9:23

just thought it was very normal. We were talking about that last

9:25

question we were talking about. I

9:28

thought everything I did was everybody felt the same way.

9:31

Interesting. Yeah. I

9:33

thought everyone is their stomachs and knots all

9:35

the time. Or everyone would

9:37

dump someone because they keep saying, just kidding

9:39

after things that aren't jokes. I related to

9:41

that though. Yeah. Yeah.

9:44

So like tightly wound. Not

9:47

tightly, just like nerve. Like, okay. So

9:50

now that I figured out the anxious, like my mom

9:52

came to visit and she wanted to go to the

9:54

airport, drop off for the airport. She needed to be

9:56

there like four hours ahead. Like, because she's so worried

9:58

about the plane and just some...

10:00

some delay and I'm like it's such in

10:02

the past I would have made fun of her but now I'm

10:04

like oh yeah I get that mom now I get it from

10:06

you so we'll get there as

10:08

early as you want. Does she acknowledge that she's

10:10

anxious? Not

10:13

really she doesn't really talk about it. So

10:16

you think your anxiety comes from growing up

10:18

in a house where that was modeled? I

10:20

don't know if it's modeled or just genetic.

10:22

Right yeah. You said

10:24

that you everything made you angry. Yeah

10:28

I was just I seem to complain a

10:30

lot I was complaining about everything it's too

10:32

hot you know everything everything bothered me and

10:35

I wanted to move I wanted to move

10:37

just move. To where? Doesn't matter. Now when

10:39

was this? Maybe

10:42

six years ago it was before the

10:44

pandemic. Okay you want

10:46

to so you just wanted to leave LA. Yeah

10:48

you know that's called the geographic when you think

10:50

moving someplace will change your problems but I still

10:52

feel like you know fix all my problems. How

10:56

long have you been in LA? I've been here

10:58

since 1992. So it's just

11:00

a long time. How long have you been thinking about moving?

11:03

Since 1992. Well it's

11:06

just too hot like I drove here and I was

11:08

like oh it's very dry here and

11:10

I missed fall immediately like where's the change?

11:12

Yeah. And it's just because I have this

11:14

connection to my past that I just can't

11:16

seem to you know let go of. Where

11:18

would you go if you moved? Probably

11:21

northeast or northwest somewhere where it's you get

11:24

seasons. Remind me where you lived

11:26

before LA? Oh well I grew

11:28

up in the suburbs in New York City and then

11:30

I went to school in New Jersey. Princeton.

11:33

Yeah. I've heard of it. You

11:35

heard of it? Yeah and then you came

11:37

out here. Yeah. And how did your wife

11:39

feel about potentially moving? She

11:41

grew up in Chicago but she lived here since

11:43

she was a kid. She'll finally follow me everywhere

11:46

it doesn't really bother her and you know but

11:48

then our kids are growing up and they're here

11:50

so I'm like crap. Now don't

11:52

you need to be here for your job?

11:56

Yes yes right yeah

11:58

that's another thing yeah Yeah,

12:01

and I do other things which I'm working on. So yeah.

12:04

When you want to pull a geographic,

12:07

does that involve leaving your career too?

12:10

Well, I'm getting to a point where I'd like to do

12:12

more of my own. So write and

12:14

perform stories on my own and travel with it and tour

12:16

with it. So that's what we're doing. It needs to be

12:18

on a bigger scale before I can do that more. So

12:20

when you say perform stories, are you talking about live shows? Yeah.

12:24

Have you been doing them? I got one this weekend. You do? I

12:27

got two this weekend. I almost missed it. I almost

12:29

forgot to go to the second one. So originally,

12:31

we rescheduled per me. The

12:33

tech rehearsal, was that for your show this weekend? Yeah.

12:37

That's so cool. Where's it going to be? Now, when

12:39

people hear this, it will have just happened, but just

12:41

for the sake of my knowing. But that's

12:43

okay. Because it's Atwater Village, but I'm doing two

12:45

more in August in Atwater Village,

12:47

then Dynasty Typewriter in Fall. Oh, nice. And then

12:49

we've got a bunch of cities that we're traveling

12:51

up to. So what's the show like? So

12:54

I perform my work. So it's a lot like

12:56

David Sedaris, but it's a little more performative. So

12:58

I'm on stage and I kind of act out

13:01

my pieces. Is

13:03

there an audio visual component? Not that there needs

13:05

to be. No. Do you have a

13:07

stool? No. It's actually, I have a music

13:09

stand. So I have a work on the music stand in front of it. And

13:13

yeah, I don't read them. I perform

13:16

my stories. And

13:18

it's like exhausting. Explain

13:21

what you mean by perform your stories.

13:23

So you would say, I have the book in front of

13:25

me or the pages. I could be

13:27

reading them, but I'm up and out. So I'm just

13:29

referring to it. But when I'm done,

13:33

people have said to me, how did you memorize all

13:35

that? I'm like, dude, I'm turning the pages. You see

13:37

it, but they don't even know it because I'm performing

13:39

it out. I see. But you're not

13:41

like doing pantomime. No. Have

13:44

you thought of adding it? No. I

13:47

keep people love pantomime. I have dignity.

13:50

I know. I

13:55

don't know that people respect mimes. Well,

13:58

there was one just got fired from SeaWorld. So I guess

14:00

no there was a big famous mime. He got fired from

14:02

SeaWorld after 20 years How

14:05

did I miss this story? It was a big story a couple days ago.

14:07

For real? Yeah. Yeah First

14:10

of all, I didn't know they had mimes. Oh, yeah

14:12

When you when you go in to watch Shamu the

14:14

mime is making, you know fun of people as they

14:16

walk in You could have a

14:18

long time. Yeah. Yeah, I will. Oh, I will. What

14:21

does a paper orchestra refer to? Yeah

14:23

That's what my agent said Why

14:26

are you calling it a paper orchestra? They wanted me to

14:28

give it a jokey name and I

14:30

was like, but it's not a jokey book because you're

14:32

a comedy writer And therefore it has to be silly

14:35

and wah wah. No, I don't I wanted to escape

14:37

that part of me I wanted to write something a little

14:39

a little closer to literature, you know, it's not high literature

14:41

by any means But so a paper

14:43

orchestra refers to one of the lines

14:46

in the book Where I

14:48

miss the sound of rain on leaves and so

14:51

to me when I hit this hear the sound

14:53

of rain It sounds like a paper orchestra. It's

14:55

like just the drain drops hitting the leaves and

14:57

then I thought well That's kind of what the on

14:59

one love us what the book is. It's a bunch of different

15:02

stories and each story Tells it

15:04

hits a different note. Mmm. This one's

15:06

about jealousy This one's about anger, you

15:09

know shame or whatever and together all the

15:11

notes on a page are a paperwork Mmm,

15:13

I like that. Yeah, I like

15:15

that a lot. So tell me about your relationship

15:17

with your daughters So

15:20

they're grown they just both

15:22

graduated college. Congrats. Yeah. Yeah,

15:24

so what is their age difference? Well, they're about a

15:26

year a little over a year and a half apart one

15:28

took a year off for the pandemic. Mmm, so And

15:31

and so one I'm super close

15:33

with Super tight and

15:35

the other one I'm I'm

15:37

desperately trying to work close get closer to yeah What

15:41

what created the distance me?

15:45

Yeah, it was just and I write about in one of

15:47

the stories. It's just You

15:49

know, I just had a hard time. She reminded

15:51

me of me. Mmm. This is

15:53

the elder one. Yeah Yeah, and she's

15:55

incredibly talented. She's an artist and she's

15:58

doing great but you know And

22:00

I felt like he was I

22:02

felt like he was clipping my wings and More

22:06

than it made me want to go

22:08

out with this person a thousand times

22:10

more to prove that your dad's wrong

22:12

Yeah, well because I'm trying to grow

22:14

up I was trying so much to

22:16

like individuate him and become my own

22:18

person And so I

22:20

feel like eventually all those lessons he was

22:22

trying to impart I learned them but I

22:25

had to do it myself and you were in your early 20s Yes,

22:28

it may be late teens early 20s and

22:34

So I think he

22:37

just he just Threw monkey

22:39

wrenches or you know, he Got

22:42

in the way of my own development by making

22:44

it so that I was like fighting him Instead

22:48

of just Allowing me to

22:50

make the mistakes like obviously if you

22:53

see your child about to make a mistake that's gonna Harm

22:56

them physically or something like of course you get

22:58

involved But I just think you have you have

23:00

to be hands-off at a certain point Are you

23:02

close to their dad now? So my dad passed

23:04

away in July and

23:07

I Was I close with

23:09

him? He and I were always

23:11

very very close and then Distance

23:14

kind of grew at a certain point

23:17

maybe around the time I think I got

23:20

married and I started having kids of my own

23:22

and He became

23:26

He he couldn't hear very well anymore and

23:28

he and his health wasn't as good and

23:30

he was just Older

23:32

and older and it was like because of the

23:34

hearing it was hard hard to have the same

23:37

kind of conversation that we used to even though he

23:40

had hearing aids But he didn't want to wear them

23:42

and so in the last year

23:44

of his life I did make an effort

23:46

to spend more time with him and I'm

23:49

so glad I did I'm so glad I did because

23:51

I think that it made it a lot

23:55

it wasn't easy when he died, but it it Ameliorated

23:58

some of the like intense

24:02

grief maybe that I would have felt if I hadn't

24:04

had that chance to sort of, if I wasn't aware

24:06

of what was happening as was happening. Yeah,

24:10

okay. So my

24:12

question for you is the correcting

24:16

her and the maybe getting involved,

24:18

if you're telling her her ideas

24:21

were wrong or whatever, like what was the motivation

24:23

for that? Did you think

24:26

that's what a parent should do? Yeah, like I said,

24:28

I thought I was raising her. I thought I was

24:30

trying to mold. I was just trying to get her

24:32

to be a different way and her

24:35

anxiety manifested in different ways when it

24:37

was affecting other people. And I

24:40

just should have been gentler with her. Yeah.

24:45

So do you guys talk about this? Yeah,

24:48

I mean, yeah, but I wrote about it and

24:50

she's read it. And I

24:54

apologize a lot and and

24:56

she doesn't like that. Why? Because it

24:58

makes her feel that she has to

25:00

carry the burden of forgiving

25:02

me. And then she's right about

25:05

that. She's right about that. That's

25:07

not her burden. That's my burden. Like you're looking

25:09

for validation? Well, I'm just looking for her to

25:11

say, it's okay. And

25:14

she won't. Well, I mean, she will.

25:16

I mean, she has, but I still

25:18

have this need to make up

25:20

for it. And that's just

25:22

not her problem. It's my problem.

25:24

Right. And she's right. She's right.

25:29

I mean, if

25:34

my dad had ever come

25:36

to me and said, and any of the things

25:38

you're saying, I would have been like,

25:41

it would have felt so good just to hear that

25:43

this person sees me and gets it. Yeah, right. So

25:48

kudos for

25:50

that. Not a lot of parents can do that.

25:53

Yeah, that's what I'm owning up to. Yeah. What

25:55

were your parents like? You know,

25:57

they're still alive, thank God, but they're great.

25:59

very loving, but and so their kids come

26:01

first, but the two of them have a

26:03

very low emotion like you. They just, and

26:06

so I grew up, that's, you know, and

26:08

so when we had problems, it was like, we're not talking

26:10

about that, you know? So, you

26:12

know, it's just also their

26:15

generation as well. Right.

26:18

You talk about your dad wanting you to do karate.

26:20

Yeah. Yeah. You

26:23

know, and that's another parenting mistake. I don't think he was trying to,

26:26

he saw me getting bullied and he

26:28

didn't want me to be bullied. And,

26:30

you know, he

26:32

pushed me into something where I got the shit kicked

26:34

out of me. It's

26:36

funny, my husband

26:41

has enrolled Elliot in karate and it's kind

26:44

of for the same reason. It's this idea

26:46

of like the world's a dangerous place and

26:49

it's like, it's good to know self-defense. Elliot's

26:52

karate is not aggressive.

26:55

It's just like learning the moves and things

26:57

like that. Unlike the

27:00

experience you had, but I don't know, it's amusing.

27:03

It's like, is this a dad? Is this

27:05

what dads do? Do they see kids who are kind of

27:08

gentle and artistic and decide karate? That's the

27:10

thing. Yeah. I mean, I get where he

27:12

comes from. My father, I get he was,

27:14

he thought he was looking my

27:16

best interest. He didn't want me to, but then you

27:19

don't know what do you do? Do you push the

27:21

kid down the road that they're more comfortable in and

27:23

encourage that? Or do you try to get them to

27:25

try new things? What do you do? And you know,

27:28

I can see wanting you to get your kid

27:30

to try new things, but why? Like I

27:32

wanted my daughter to try new things. Well, why

27:35

not just let her be an art,

27:37

do the artist thing that she wants

27:39

to do. All these tiny decisions are

27:41

so hard. Like Elliot's in soccer and

27:45

some new kids joined and one

27:47

of them is mean. And I

27:49

don't know the whole story, but

27:51

like he didn't want to go

27:53

anymore because of these new

27:56

older shitty kids. And

28:00

I don't personally

28:04

care, really. Like, it's, I

28:06

don't, I don't love soccer and

28:09

you'll do a lot of different sports in your

28:11

life and try different things.

28:13

It's also quite expensive. But at the

28:15

same time, I have this sense of,

28:19

he shouldn't, this isn't the reason you should quit.

28:21

Like it should be more thought out as opposed

28:23

to just like, I don't, I don't like the

28:25

feeling of this anymore. But then again, that's when

28:28

you want to quit, but should he learn to

28:30

persevere because there's going to be all sorts of

28:32

assholes in life? And

28:34

so whatever decision you help make will be wrong. Thank

28:38

you. Well, listen, there

28:40

was like a deus ex machina here

28:42

because those kids left on their own.

28:44

Okay. So it totally worked out. So

28:47

now you enjoy soccer? Yes. Okay.

28:50

Yes. But I don't know what the right

28:52

thing, I don't know. And also he takes

28:54

piano and now he, it's boring. He doesn't

28:56

want to do it anymore. And I don't

28:58

know. Where did you come down

29:00

on like letting your kids quit things? We

29:03

let them quit quite a few things, but we, you

29:05

know. I'm a quitter. I quit a lot of things.

29:07

In life? I

29:09

mean, I don't know if I'd, no, I'm

29:11

not a quitter in life, but I've got a list

29:13

of things that I quit.

29:15

I quit basketball team, I quit

29:17

tennis team. I, you

29:19

know, I like, I don't, I

29:22

don't like doing stuff I don't like doing. Right.

29:25

But now here you are very entrepreneurial, you're doing things on

29:27

your own. So it's like, you know, it's not like you're

29:30

a quitter. No, I'm not. I guess I

29:32

say that kind of flippantly. I'm not truly a quitter.

29:34

Yeah. I just mean

29:36

I've quit some things. Yeah, but at some point you

29:38

have, like how much energy you're going to put in

29:40

this thing that you don't, you

29:42

don't, you try to, you don't quit. Right. Yeah.

29:45

Right. So do we let our kids do that?

29:47

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. If it's

29:49

not for them, like what's the point? Like, you

29:51

know, my kids were into gymnastics. They were, they

29:53

liked it for a while. Neither one of them

29:55

was going to the Olympics. So you look at

29:57

them like the cartwheel needs some work, you know.

29:59

And so you let them quit, you

30:02

know, it's okay. Yeah. Can you

30:04

do a cartwheel? I can't even come close. I could do

30:06

a log roll. That's

30:08

where you lay on the ground and roll? Yeah, you roll,

30:10

yeah. Okay. Can you do a

30:12

somersault? Yes, I can do that. I

30:15

think that if I tried to do a somersault now

30:17

as an adult, it would hurt. Oh,

30:19

I'd probably throw up, it gets dizzy. Yeah.

30:22

Yeah. But I remember our PE teacher

30:25

demonstrated a somersault when

30:28

I wasn't impressed. Oh. Because

30:30

it's like, yeah, we're all doing somersaults. But

30:33

now I look back and I think, all

30:36

that pressure on her neck, good for her. Good

30:38

for you. Yeah. I'm sure she

30:40

could do all sorts of like, I think she could do a headstand. I

30:43

can't, I could never. So I brought

30:45

it up though, you brought it up, but I asked about

30:47

cartwheels because I have never in my life been able to

30:49

do a good cartwheel. I couldn't do one either. Yeah. I

30:52

can't, my legs, I just can't, I can't. And

30:56

I feel like I've

30:59

thought to myself, should I

31:01

decide I'm going to

31:03

learn how to do a cartwheel? And I

31:05

think, no. No.

31:09

Yeah. Right. You know, that's another, I used

31:11

to punt, that's not one of the stories, and I

31:13

have a bag of footballs and occasionally I go, I

31:15

punt in a high school and college, and then I

31:17

go up to this same field for the golf courses.

31:19

And sometimes I kick these balls and sometimes I'm like,

31:22

why am I doing this? What's the point? Why

31:25

am I? I'm a ball now. Why

31:28

am I doing this? What's the point?

31:30

Yeah. What's the point? I can

31:32

feel that way about most anything in life though. I

31:34

feel like that's just sort of being sentient and it's

31:36

just existential thought. Do you have that with most everything?

31:38

No, like I have a goal. I

31:40

have a goal with a lot of things that I do, but with

31:43

that I was like, okay, if I kick the

31:45

ball five yards far, then what? I'm not going to

31:47

the NFL. What's the point? Right.

31:50

Do you play any of those New

31:52

York Times games or like Wordle or

31:54

connections or anything? I think

31:56

that I can

31:58

begin to feel. What's the point with games like that?

32:01

Like people who are still doing Wordle. Yeah.

32:04

Wow. Yeah, I know. What's the point? What's the

32:06

point? I feel that way

32:08

with golf, but I don't golf. But I feel, when I look

32:10

at people, I go, what are you doing? Yeah. It's

32:13

so expensive and it's hot. So, okay. So

32:15

you still go to the golf course where you

32:17

had your moment of Zen? I

32:20

don't golf, but I run there. Yes. Do

32:22

you feel safe there anymore? I usually run

32:24

on the trails. I don't usually run on, if

32:26

it's early, and if it's really early, I'll do

32:28

that run. See, running on trails would

32:30

make me feel unsafe. Because of the rattlesnakes, and

32:32

I've seen rattlesnakes. And just weirdos

32:36

in deserted areas. Oh, no one

32:38

goes up there. It's too remote.

32:40

Okay. Yeah. That

32:43

is scary. That would make me feel scared though.

32:45

I'm not saying you should. Yeah. I'm

32:48

just saying. So,

32:52

there's a story where you were lying

32:55

during a Hollywood power meeting, got

32:57

caught lying. What happened? That

33:00

story is so that whenever we go into these meetings,

33:03

I always ask you, I have a writing partner. How

33:05

did you two meet? And so we tell the same

33:08

story over and over again. And it's just so fucking,

33:10

do I have, like. Does it have beats? Does it

33:12

have like. We have the same jokes, the same, we

33:14

know how to tell the story. And

33:16

I'm just, I can't

33:18

do it anymore. I can't do it. And

33:21

I assume, I always assume that my partner, he's

33:23

more social and he's better bullshitting than I am.

33:25

So, I always assumed, I never said anything to

33:27

him about it. Cause you have to talk, you

33:29

have to make the chat, the chitchat. But

33:32

then one day during this one of these meetings, someone asked us

33:34

how we met and he just went off

33:36

book. And he starts making up

33:38

this story. I'm like, what the fuck is he doing? And

33:40

then I joined in and the two of them, we're just

33:42

fucking lying. Is

33:45

it, was it far

33:47

fetched or was it just. Yeah, it was crazy.

33:49

It was crazy. Okay. But, and

33:51

then the executive's like, right, really? And then

33:53

I was like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And

33:56

then, but we never spoke about it ever again. It

33:59

was just one of these. things where we just connected. And

34:02

after that, like the next time we had a meeting, we went back

34:04

to the old version. He

34:06

never talked about it. Never talked about it, yeah. It was

34:09

just this one moment that we had this connection. Like,

34:13

is there something sexual about it? No, I

34:16

hope not. It sounds like a tryst that

34:18

never gets mentioned afterwards. You

34:23

know, I'm realizing we haven't even mentioned your many,

34:26

many credits. And someone might be like-

34:28

Who is this guy? Yeah. We should

34:30

have mentioned that earlier. I jumped in.

34:33

No, I should have mentioned it, probably. King

34:36

of the Hill. King of the Hill.

34:38

Just shoot me. Beavis and Butthead, Marin,

34:41

Tacoma FD, a fire

34:43

department. Is that what the FD is? Yeah.

34:47

Okay. What else? What

34:50

am I missing? Wilfred, Marin. Prickleberry. Prickleberry, rules

34:52

of engagement. We said that, rules of engagement.

34:54

We didn't say that one. Out of practice.

34:57

I do a lot of, then a lot of sitcoms. Okay.

35:00

And then you're also a showrunner.

35:03

Which ones were you the showrunner on? My partner

35:05

and I together, we ran Marin

35:08

on IFC, Glen

35:10

Martin DDS, and Rhett and Link's

35:12

Buddy System. Mm. Yeah.

35:15

On YouTube Red. Yes. When

35:17

that was a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever

35:20

happened to YouTube Red? They had a paywall.

35:22

They had a paywall. So people, they decided- Was

35:24

it Ben Stiller's company or didn't Ben Stiller have

35:26

something to do with it? No. Yeah,

35:31

I don't know. But they made a paywall

35:33

which was so fortified, no one got beyond it.

35:37

Right. It kept the people

35:39

out. Yeah. What was being

35:41

Marin's showrunner like? So

35:43

this Mark Marin, the comedian. Yeah. The

35:45

podcaster. Yeah, and the pod, yes. Yeah.

35:48

And so he was, it was terrific. It was a

35:50

great experience. Very low budget, but it was, because of

35:52

that it was a great experience. Because they

35:54

left us alone. And Mark was, I give

35:57

him credit because he was so brave. We'd be in

36:00

the writers room, it was just the four of us,

36:02

the first year, and he'd pitch us because he wanted

36:04

to be about his life. And so

36:06

he'd pitch, let's do a story about this.

36:08

And I remember saying to him a couple of times, that's

36:10

really personal. Are you sure you want to do it? Like, that's

36:12

really, and he's like, no, no, I want to reveal that. And

36:15

it was so brave of him that when I was writing my book,

36:17

I was like, fuck if Mark can do it. Do

36:20

you happen to remember an example of what one

36:22

of those things was? It was

36:24

almost anything. It was like

36:26

even how he met his girlfriend at the time

36:28

was, you know, she sent the equivalent of

36:30

a dick pic. Oh, right. Yeah. And

36:32

then, you know, she moved in basically.

36:35

Right. You know, so everything

36:37

was everything. Everything was life in his relationship

36:39

with his parents, whoever he was

36:41

dating, or just his

36:44

issues with being angry. It was

36:46

just him just be, it was

36:48

all true. I'm always impressed with

36:50

his acting. Yeah. Yeah.

36:54

So you have this assumption,

36:56

you being me, that comedians

36:58

do like a comedian version

37:01

of acting, which is not as good as

37:03

someone who's actually just an actor. Some of

37:05

them, yeah. But no, he's

37:07

really good. But some of them, the thing about

37:09

comedians, which I like, which I've noticed, because I've

37:11

worked with a lot of, obviously, actors and comedians,

37:13

but sometimes actors won't go for it.

37:15

They won't do something because it might make them look

37:17

dumb or, you know, humble. But a comedian always

37:20

goes for the joke. It's almost as funny

37:22

what they're like. Yeah. This

37:28

is a question you probably get a lot. And

37:31

I don't know if you have an answer, but what was your favorite of all

37:33

the shows you were on? You

37:36

know, for different reasons. Like Just Shoot Me was

37:38

my first big break. And I was so excited.

37:41

And my wife was an actor on the show. I met her on that

37:43

show. And so that was, the

37:46

hours were long, but it didn't feel, it felt,

37:48

you know, great. You worked all two in the

37:50

morning. You're like, we were doing it. And

37:54

then Marin. Two in the

37:56

morning. Oh, easily sometimes. Yeah. If

37:58

this right, wasn't working. And, but you know, you're, but I'm. 20

38:00

something years old, that's fine. Now I'm

38:02

like, are you kidding me? You know, eight o'clock,

38:04

it's lights out. Right, but it wasn't a toxic

38:07

work environment or anything. No, not at all. Okay,

38:09

because you do hear about sets

38:11

that are like crazy

38:14

because the head

38:16

person or whatever is just like wants

38:20

perfection. No, not at all. It was just, there was

38:22

a lot of work that's there to

38:25

make it good. And then Marin was

38:27

great because, you know, I was this

38:29

co-showrunner of it and so that was fun. But most

38:31

of the experiences have had been really good. It's only a couple

38:34

that are, like I don't even want to talk

38:36

about. Well, can

38:38

you explain why you don't want

38:40

to talk about them though? It could be a

38:42

toxic environment, you know. Is that usually

38:44

like one person and it just kind of spreads? It

38:46

comes from the leadership. So whoever, you know, if the

38:48

showrunner, whatever kind of ship they want to run.

38:52

Have you ever left a show because it was toxic? Yeah,

38:55

yeah, yeah. But you know, but only because I

38:57

was able to get another job. Like if I

39:00

didn't have a job, I was, you know, you're

39:02

stuck there. Right. Do you and your

39:04

writing, who was your writing partner? His name is Severt,

39:06

Severt Clarem. Yeah. How's that a

39:08

real name? He is Norwegian. That's

39:11

how it's a real name. Yeah, he comes

39:13

from a long line of Severt Clarems. Really?

39:15

Oh yeah, even his kid, like they're all

39:17

Severt Clarems. Dude, is

39:20

there like the fifth or the sixth or the 49th

39:22

or anything on there? No, they don't add numbers. I

39:24

don't know why. They stop numbering at so many. Okay.

39:28

Maybe they went back to zero. The

39:30

odometer rolled over, Severt. Do

39:34

you guys always get along? Yeah, I mean,

39:37

you know, obviously we've had our disagreements over the years,

39:39

but for the most part, it's, you know, we get

39:41

along great. Does

39:43

having a writing partner provide a

39:45

buffer in one of these toxic situations, do you think?

39:48

Yeah, because you look at, you know, am I crazy?

39:50

You know, or at least you have an ally, you

39:52

know? So for sure, if you're alone, you'd be

39:54

like, oh my God, what do I do? Who

39:56

can I trust? Right, right. I

40:01

have heard that working with a married

40:03

couple can be, some

40:05

people feel like it's, I've

40:08

heard that it's like unfair for the other

40:11

people because it's sort of

40:13

this alliance that they're on the

40:15

outside of. And I'm wondering how

40:18

a writing partnership in a writer's room

40:20

functions if it's similar. I

40:22

would think it's the same thing because I mean,

40:25

like what we've had, we've been writing partners for

40:27

like 30 something years. It's like a marriage as

40:29

long as many marriages. And

40:31

so I would think the same way, like I have his back,

40:33

he's got my back, so too bad. I mean, I

40:35

have to ask how you guys met, even though you just, you don't

40:37

have to give me the general meeting version though. The short

40:40

version is I was signed by an

40:42

agent and she, it's actually one of the

40:44

stories in the book and she blew a lot of smoke up

40:46

my ass and I was gonna be a showrunner in a couple

40:48

of years. And I'm like, oh my God. And then when the

40:51

smoke came out of my ass, I called

40:54

her assistant and, what happened

40:56

to the previous writer? Every year she has

40:58

a new baby writer that becomes a star and I

41:00

was that year. And so I thought, well, what happened

41:02

to the previous one? I got his

41:04

number. That's smart. Yeah, and I

41:06

call him up and I'm thinking, what show are

41:08

you working on, sir? And he

41:10

was like, dude, this is what he said, dude, I

41:12

work in a fucking record store. And

41:15

so we teamed up so that we wouldn't have to

41:17

compete against each other. No, why

41:19

did you call him? Because I was just

41:21

curious to like, I thought maybe, is

41:23

he working on a show? Like what show, you know, if

41:25

he was the previous baby writer and

41:28

he was gonna be a star, I wanted to find out what he was

41:30

on. Did you wanna see your

41:32

trajectory? Yeah, and I wonder if I

41:34

could believe this woman who's blowing smoke. Did

41:36

you end up staying with her? No, she dropped us.

41:38

She drops about a year. We teamed up

41:40

and then she dropped us together. Why?

41:43

Well, my partner says she

41:46

did it to save, you know, a quarter on a phone call. Just,

41:49

you know, team us up and drop us together.

41:51

Right. No, no, I mean, why'd she

41:53

drop you? Oh, because we didn't get staffed. So

41:57

that's her job to get us

41:59

on a staff. Right. You know, right. And then we got

42:01

staff, I think a year or two later. What

42:03

was your first staff job? Just shoot me a second. Just

42:05

shoot me. We sold in a freelance

42:07

episode of Lois and Clark before that. So

42:12

you are blowing up on social

42:14

media. I certainly am. Tell me. The

42:18

numbers. Oh, the numbers, well. Or

42:20

whatever you were gonna tell me before I said the

42:23

numbers. All of that, so I

42:25

read this book and then my agent said, well,

42:27

in this space, personal essays, platform drives acquisition. I

42:29

said, what does that mean? He said, you need

42:31

to have a social media following because that's how

42:34

you market the book. I go, but isn't

42:36

that what the publisher do? No, what

42:38

does the publisher do? Not too much.

42:41

So I was like, all right, well, give me a year.

42:44

I will get, I don't know how I'll do it, but

42:46

I will get a big following. And so I just went

42:48

on TikTok and Instagram every day. I talk about- Every

42:50

day, I didn't realize that often. To talk

42:52

about my experience in Hollywood or talk about writing or

42:54

whatever the hell. Or to show your residual

42:57

checks. I do that. People wanna know what's

42:59

in my wallet. The first time I felt so

43:01

dirty. I felt so dirty. But

43:03

everyone loves it. And so that get me

43:05

built a following that I could sell books to. And

43:07

then that's how I maybe able to tour and do

43:09

shows is like I go on social media and they

43:11

show up. Are you still going on every

43:13

day? Do I go on

43:16

every, well, probably five days a week.

43:18

You do lives five days a week. Oh, not lives.

43:20

Lives are a lot of work, but it depends. If

43:22

I'm selling something, like tickets, I'll do a live. Interesting.

43:25

So you built your following. So if someone

43:27

said to you, how did you build your

43:29

following? I guess I'm the one saying that.

43:31

Oh, yeah. The social media following. That's

43:33

it. I didn't know. First

43:36

I went on TikTok and I was like, isn't this

43:38

the app for the 13 year old girls who shuffle

43:40

dance? Am I gonna be the

43:42

creepy guy? Right. That everyone's gonna be like,

43:44

what are you doing here old man? But it turns

43:46

out there are a lot of people, my generation, who share

43:49

their knowledge. And they're really interesting because they're

43:51

usually professionals talking about what their work is.

43:53

And so they can be very interesting. Yeah.

43:56

And so yeah, but I was very, all

43:59

of it was like. You know, am I imposter?

44:01

What am I doing here? Who cares what I have

44:03

to say? Right, but it turns out a lot of

44:05

people do. Yeah, on some

44:07

days, and some days no one gives a shit. You know,

44:09

you can see the, you know, TikTok is a way of

44:12

keeping your ego in check. Right. Of

44:15

all the apps, which one, are the

44:17

social media platforms, the platforms that drive

44:20

acquisition, which one do you like best?

44:22

I think in terms of people

44:24

actually opening their wallet, I think

44:26

it's Instagram. Mm-hmm, interesting. No. I

44:29

find as someone who looks at them, I

44:32

find TikTok aggravates me the least. It aggravates you

44:34

the least? Well, why is it there? It's really

44:36

no difference between that and Instagram. Well,

44:38

Instagram, I mean,

44:41

I guess if we're talking about the reels,

44:43

then it's just very similar to TikTok. Right.

44:46

But in general, when I'm on Instagram, I'm

44:48

looking at people that I know and their

44:50

lives, and it can create this like, FOMO

44:52

or competitiveness in me, versus TikTok. I'm

44:55

just being served things that

44:57

theoretically appeal to me, and I don't know

44:59

any of these people, and it's much

45:01

more, it doesn't put

45:03

me in a negative headspace in the same way that

45:05

Instagram can. Well, that's because you're following your

45:08

friends. Yeah. Do you not follow anyone you

45:10

know? I don't really see them in the, not

45:12

that much. It's the same

45:14

thing. People

45:17

are leaving very inauthentic lives on Instagram, and

45:19

they're showing their best life. And it's like,

45:21

this is, what are you doing? And

45:23

to the point of what they ate for lunch, or what

45:26

their cat's doing, or where they went on vacation. Right. I

45:29

remember when Facebook first came out, this like 2008

45:31

or something, and I remember thinking, someone

45:33

explained to me what it was. I go, oh, this is

45:35

gonna be so interesting. All your friends are gonna just, it's

45:37

gonna be like reading their diary. They're just gonna tell you

45:40

what's going on in their life. And because we're friends, they're

45:43

gonna share everything. Right. It's fucking

45:45

not, it was, I was so, I mean, that's why I

45:47

don't have money in technology, because I don't know if anybody

45:49

uses any. It was the exact opposite.

45:51

All the friends just fucking lying to each

45:53

other, and makes you not like your friends. Yes.

45:56

I think I thought we were friends. Why

45:58

don't I hit you? Facebook is

46:00

probably the one that's the most, like,

46:04

I'll go on there and if I'm in a group and

46:07

I'll read updates in the group or something,

46:09

not group of friends, but like a topic

46:11

group. But I don't

46:13

even wanna look at my homepage on there. Like I don't

46:15

even know what, it's almost like listening to voicemails, you

46:17

know? Like I don't know what I'm gonna

46:20

encounter, but it's gonna be something that makes me,

46:22

that reminds me that I haven't talked to that

46:24

person in forever and like, oh my God, look,

46:27

yeah, I think it just makes me feel

46:30

like I am a bad friend for being out

46:32

of touch with so many people. Yeah,

46:35

interesting. Supposed to make

46:37

things better, it didn't. No, because

46:40

all of a sudden, I think because we're

46:42

not meant to see what's happening in the

46:44

lives of that many people at once.

46:46

Yeah. Stupid technology.

46:48

Yeah, yeah. And

46:50

one of my daughters is not even on it. She doesn't,

46:52

both of them, they barely use social media. I'm like, thank

46:55

God, I'm the one in the house who's on social media.

46:59

How did

47:01

you get children who don't wanna be on

47:03

social media? Because both of my kids are

47:06

desperate to have YouTube accounts. Oh really?

47:08

They just, I don't know, that's the whole thing. I

47:11

was so worried about raising them and they

47:13

were raising themselves fine. Yeah. Where's

47:16

your wife in all of this? That's

47:18

because they get it from her. Because she has, my wife's a

47:20

very high emotional IQ. So she's like

47:22

the wise one. So they listened to her

47:24

and, you know, she's very spiritual and very...

47:27

Do you talk to her about your feelings

47:33

about your relationship with your older daughter? Yeah,

47:35

and she helps me a lot. That's one

47:37

of the stories I write about, is how

47:39

she helps me deal with them

47:41

and talk to them, understand my parents, understand

47:43

my children. How did she get

47:45

this high emotional intelligence? Did her parents have

47:47

it? Well, no. She's

47:51

been in therapy for like, since she was

47:53

born, you know? So it's opposite.

47:55

Yeah, she's really, you know, she's worked out, well,

47:57

she had a very hard, difficult childhood. So she...

47:59

She was abused as a child, so she had to-

48:01

Oh, geez. Yeah, so she had to, she

48:04

got to a point where, and I write about this in the book

48:06

as well, where she had to, it was either save

48:09

herself or just go under. Yeah,

48:11

so she worked on herself and she continues to.

48:17

Amazing. Yeah. Does she still act?

48:20

No, but she directs my

48:22

show. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Do

48:25

you guys work well? I mean, you must work well

48:27

together. Yeah, I mean, she directed the audio book and

48:29

directs the show. And so she's really helped me, because

48:32

I'm not a performer, so she's helped me get into

48:34

that performer space. But have

48:36

you done acting? A little. Voiceover.

48:38

Voiceover, yeah. On King of the Hell. Yeah.

48:41

Who'd you play? I played Carolyn,

48:44

who is, I guess, yeah,

48:47

she was Peggy's friend, but who was a man

48:49

dressing as a woman. And

48:52

how did you get cast in this role? Because, and

48:56

table reads the rehearsal, sometimes

48:59

the actors wouldn't make it. And so I would

49:01

step in, all of us would step

49:03

in for various actors, and I would tend to

49:05

step in for Kath and the Jimmy who played

49:07

Peggy. And I was just imitating Peggy. I was

49:10

imitating Kathy doing Peggy. But

49:12

I was pretty good at the imitators. But

49:15

it was funny because it's still my voice. And so they

49:18

always got a laugh. And then when I left the King of the Hill, they

49:20

brought it back. I was no longer on. We moved

49:23

on to a different show. A

49:25

writer named Christy Stratton wrote an episode, and she

49:27

thought, I would be great to play this character

49:29

because I'm already do a Peggy. So

49:32

she cast me. Christy Stratton, was

49:35

she in that documentary about

49:40

Nickelodeon? I knew that

49:42

name. I haven't seen it, but she was in it. Okay. Are

49:45

you gonna see it? I

49:47

should, I forgot to. I'm blanking on

49:49

the name suddenly, but it was about

49:52

Dan Schneider and just kind of about

49:54

the general skeeviness of that era of

49:56

Nickelodeon. My God, it'll

49:58

come to me. Um, okay.

50:01

I think we should do Just

50:04

Me or Everyone. Mm-hmm. Sometimes

50:07

I ponder on something

50:10

I have thought or

50:12

done. Is it

50:15

just me or

50:17

everyone? Do

50:19

you have one? Just, oh, well, it

50:21

was basically what the book is. It's like, I just

50:23

thought it was me. I really thought it was, I

50:26

thought I was, it was everyone. I thought everyone suffered

50:28

the same way I did. So that's why I really

50:30

prepared that, that answer. Right. You

50:32

know, it's my life. Well,

50:34

so my husband had a situation that

50:36

I think is similar. He

50:40

started going to therapy and

50:43

I think he was diagnosed with dysthymia. What

50:45

is that? Do you know that term? It's

50:47

like, it's like low level depression. Oh. Um,

50:50

and so he started an SSRI and

50:53

he came in and he's like, I feel so much better. Like,

50:56

is this how normal people feel? And

50:59

his therapist said yes. And this

51:01

was news to him because he just assumed

51:03

everyone kind of wondered like, what's the point

51:05

of it all? And I think

51:07

I just assumed that too. I

51:09

think that I just assumed that every, maybe it's

51:11

just that there's a certain type of person who

51:15

relates to me and listens to my

51:17

show, but I assume we're all struggling

51:20

in some way. And I still

51:22

feel that we're not

51:25

as smooth and cool and confident and

51:27

grown up as we, as

51:30

other people our age are. And that's

51:32

a very young thing to say, but I don't

51:34

know, right? Do you know what it always makes

51:36

you think of? Like there are videos you can

51:38

see on social media where someone who is colorblind

51:40

will see, look at those glasses for the first

51:42

time and they put it on and they just

51:44

start sobbing, you know, cause it's

51:46

like, that's what purple is. Like they just have

51:48

no fucking idea. Right. And that's what

51:50

it makes me think about. Like this, you know, you're

51:53

seeing, oh, this is

51:55

not normal. Right. So

52:00

then what is normal? Yeah, well, there's

52:02

no normal world, just struggling. We're all just

52:05

barely making our way. And so

52:08

when I talk about it, and when I write about it in the book, and

52:11

when I perform it, people say, oh, you're so brave to

52:14

admit all this. See your regular Mark Marin.

52:16

But it's, yeah, I guess. But I

52:19

don't even know what's brave. You're

52:21

suffering the same thing. I'm just saying it out

52:23

loud. Right, right. I

52:30

know that I reveal my own embarrassing

52:33

or weak stuff. I think because I'm looking

52:35

to connect and I want to find out,

52:37

do you feel this way too? That's the

52:39

whole point to just mirror everyone. Is

52:41

that what compels you to share it? I

52:44

think I wanted to, ever

52:48

being a second writer for 28 years, I wanted

52:50

to write like, I don't think

52:52

second writing is art. I think it's craft, you know? And

52:54

I always, like I say, I get to write, it's a

52:56

good job, but I'm writing what someone else wants me to

52:58

write. I never write what I'm writing, right? I'm writing what

53:00

I can sell, which is fair. I'm

53:02

not complaining. But I just

53:04

wanted to do, what would, I was like,

53:06

what would art be? What is art? What would be

53:09

like to write something that I want to write, but

53:11

elevated so it feels somewhat closer to art? And then

53:13

I was like, well, what is art? I had to

53:15

go to these long conversations. Well, what is art? I

53:17

don't even know. And so that

53:20

was the intention of just taking

53:22

something inside of me and expressing it in such a

53:25

way so that I feel

53:28

heard and understood, and that maybe the people

53:30

who read it or watch it feel

53:33

understood as well. And then, yes,

53:35

then together we're connecting. We

53:37

feel less alone in the world. Are

53:39

you on a show currently? Well,

53:42

I was on a show called Tacoma, then I got

53:44

the whole network was canceled. What network was

53:46

it? It was a true TV. Like there's

53:48

basically- True TV's done? I didn't know that. It's

53:51

like they're not doing anything now. I mean, that

53:53

was Warner Brothers and they killed everything. So

53:55

now we're doing a pilot, but yeah. Are

54:00

there sitcoms that are on right now that

54:02

you're like? There's nothing on. There's

54:04

very few. You know, there's a

54:06

handful. So. Yeah,

54:10

I'm not a, I'm, growing

54:13

up, I mean, it's probably what everyone says. Like I

54:15

love sitcoms, but I don't think I watch any anymore.

54:17

Yeah. What was your favorite growing up?

54:19

Facts of life. Oh yeah. Everyone

54:21

loves facts of life. I mean,

54:23

not like I do. Really? I'm

54:25

like in a class of my own, I

54:27

think. Yeah.

54:30

I love facts of life, but then sometimes I'll watch family

54:32

ties now and I'm like, God, that was, I

54:34

liked that one a lot too. So good.

54:37

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's

54:39

listen to a just mirror. Everyone sent

54:41

in from a listener. And

54:45

if you would like to communicate with us,

54:47

send something in, et cetera, the

54:49

number is 323-553-2331. Okay.

54:56

Hi Allison, this is Elissa Wounds. I'm

54:59

calling with a just mirror everyone. Does

55:02

anybody else, when somebody

55:04

that you know has

55:07

like a really bad experience, like

55:11

they get cancer or a sickness

55:13

or something like that, do

55:15

you feel a little bit of relief because

55:17

you think, well, at least that particular

55:19

thing isn't going to happen to me

55:22

just based on the odds? Just

55:25

mirror everyone. Hope you're well. Love,

55:27

love, love the show. Bye.

55:31

I mean, I really want to

55:33

say that's everyone, but

55:36

I don't feel that way. Maybe

55:40

because I'm a little bit pessimistic, but also

55:42

because this factoid that I learned,

55:45

which is if you get hit by lightning, you're

55:49

statistically more likely to be hit by

55:51

lightning again than someone

55:53

else. And I don't know why.

55:55

It doesn't make sense to me. Wow. Yeah.

55:58

I mean, I think that's a question or statements. Like, you know, when people. What

56:00

they die of. And then you go, oh, okay,

56:02

okay. Totally. I don't try to, you know,

56:05

I don't, so I'm safe. I don't, I don't write a

56:07

motorcycle or whatever. Yeah. I mean, it

56:09

is trying to control the, the

56:12

uncontrollable, but yeah,

56:14

I hate

56:17

when someone dies and there's an article

56:19

about it and you're like, just say the cause of death. Just

56:21

say the cause, you know, and it's like, what did they, cause

56:23

of course you want to know so you can know

56:25

if you're safe or not. Yeah. Right.

56:28

So do you do this? I mean, it's such an illusion

56:30

that we have any control over any of this. Yeah. We

56:33

just want control. I would like it. Yeah.

56:36

I would love it. Okay. We

56:38

got another one. Hey, Allison and friends. This

56:41

is Noah from Seattle. Long text. They're here. Oh,

56:43

I've got a game over for you. Whenever I

56:45

hear or see the prefix 555 used

56:48

to note a phone number in

56:50

film or television, I feel like the fourth wall is

56:52

completely broken and I'm taking that at the moment. Anyone

56:55

with me here? Thanks again for doing

56:57

what you're doing. Noah from Seattle. I

57:02

just accept that that's how all

57:04

phone numbers in films or TV

57:07

are. And is it because if

57:09

they put a real number, everyone would be

57:11

dialing it? Yeah. But who

57:13

does that? Someone's going to do it. And so as

57:15

a TV writer, yes, I know we're putting in a

57:17

555 number, right? Sorry. There's

57:20

no other way around it. And I agree. It does

57:22

take you out. The fact

57:24

that no one ever says goodbye. And I did a

57:26

post on that. That went viral. What did

57:28

you say? So here's the thing. When

57:32

you shoot an episode, you have a running time, let's say

57:34

it's 22 minutes and you shoot a little long and you

57:36

trim it down to 22. And

57:40

you have to turn it into 22 if that's the running time.

57:42

You don't get over. And so if

57:44

you wrote in goodbye, you'd cut it to

57:47

keep your favorite joke or off of the different moment. You

57:49

wouldn't, you just cut it. Yeah, I guess it's

57:51

not really necessary. Yeah. And

57:53

then people look, but it takes me out of it. It's like, okay.

57:56

Okay. So do you really want to hear goodbye? Yeah. Also

58:00

in TV

58:04

and movies, people storm out all the time.

58:06

But in real life, there's not a lot

58:08

of storming out. Have you noticed that? Yeah,

58:11

but also it's a drama. Real life's fucking

58:14

boring. Sorry, we have

58:16

to take some liberties, make

58:19

it fun. And

58:21

I know this because the one or

58:23

two times that someone did storm out, it was always

58:26

like, are you going to soap

58:28

opera? Yeah. What are you doing? So dramatic. Yeah,

58:30

I remember one time some co-worker, I

58:32

had this story I heard, but co-workers

58:34

went to a restaurant for lunch. And

58:37

one of them, she was kind

58:39

of a dramatic person, got so angry,

58:41

she stormed out, and then waited

58:44

by the car because they had all

58:46

driven together. Bravo. Yeah, I know. Listen,

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at this point, I've now done a couple of videos. I'm going to show you a video

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of what I've done. a couple tropical smoothie cafe

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reels. They're

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like little skits. I

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don't think I needed to do a skit. I think

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I went above and beyond and I hope they recognize

1:00:10

that I'm really giving it my

1:00:12

all. I mean, it's got two

1:00:14

characters. Both of them look

1:00:17

like me, although they're

1:00:19

very different, you know?

1:00:21

We've got outfit changes. They

1:00:24

don't know what they're getting with you. That's

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a deal. I know, because other people

1:00:29

are just posting photos of

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them at Tropical Smoothie Cafe. And

1:00:33

I'm like making, I'm

1:00:36

making cinema, Michael. Cinema. It's

1:00:38

cinema. It's elevated to cinema.

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Now for all I know, they prefer just

1:00:44

the photos, but I say, no. You

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get two gals who look alike, but

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are very different, who love smoothies. Yeah,

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two of them. Two of them, that's right.

1:00:56

Okay, let's do

1:00:59

podcast pals, product picks. Podcast

1:01:03

pals, product picks. What

1:01:05

is yours? I have this water bottle I

1:01:07

sent in to you, which I love. It's

1:01:09

a Camelbak, right? Camelbak, yeah.

1:01:11

But they have different kinds. And the kind that

1:01:13

I like has a top that pops off and

1:01:15

you can screw it on. And

1:01:18

so you get two choices. You

1:01:20

know, I want to pop it off or I just want to screw it on. Pop

1:01:23

it off or screw it on. Do you mean like lift it like

1:01:25

a mouthpiece? You can tilt it back. Oh, I see. And

1:01:28

then, but also you can put it on and you can screw

1:01:30

it tightly so it doesn't leak. Right, what do you do? What

1:01:33

I do is I put it on and

1:01:35

then I forget to screw it so it leaks. That's

1:01:39

brilliant. I don't use it

1:01:41

correctly, but I love it. Okay. It's

1:01:44

a good water bottle is important and it's hard

1:01:46

to find. Yeah, and I was going to bring it in,

1:01:48

I left it at home and that's why you gave me water, I

1:01:50

appreciate it. Well, you're welcome. Okay. I

1:01:55

took questions. Oh wait, no, what am I saying? I meant to announce

1:01:57

that. to

1:02:00

everyone that the Podcast Pals

1:02:03

product picks are all

1:02:05

gathered over on

1:02:07

my store on Amazon. So

1:02:10

amazon.com/ shop slash Alice

1:02:12

in Rose and go there, click Podcast

1:02:15

Pals product picks, or it might

1:02:17

just say guest pick. I don't know. And you can

1:02:19

peruse all of them. You don't like that bottle. What

1:02:22

color do you have? It's black. It

1:02:24

probably comes in a lot of colors, right? Yeah.

1:02:28

Yeah. So let's take

1:02:30

some questions that people sent in

1:02:32

on Patreon for you. And

1:02:34

yes, I am on Patreon.

1:02:36

patreon.com/Alice in Rose. There's

1:02:39

all sorts of stuff over there. There's

1:02:41

bonus episodes of the friend zone. I just caught

1:02:43

up with fan favorite Janet Kim Jones and that's

1:02:46

about to go. Well, by the time you hear

1:02:48

this, that's, that's up. I

1:02:50

do ask me anything's level where you can text

1:02:52

me. I'll text you back. All sorts of

1:02:54

fun stuff. You're going to subscribe, do an

1:02:56

annual subscription and get two months free. Okay.

1:03:00

When we ask, they send them in.

1:03:06

They're wondering how you have

1:03:08

been. So thanks so much

1:03:11

for answering these questions from

1:03:13

our fans. West

1:03:15

Anthony says, I've seen several TikTok

1:03:18

videos in which people talk about

1:03:20

the dire condition of the TV

1:03:22

industry. Is there any truth to

1:03:24

this or are they merely, Dicentious

1:03:27

rogues rubbing the poor

1:03:29

itch of their opinion? Is

1:03:32

Dicentious a word? I guess so.

1:03:34

I mean, I like it. Like it means they're dissenting.

1:03:36

Wow. Yeah. Good

1:03:39

question. Yeah. And right now

1:03:41

the industry is definitely contracting. It's hard to get work right now

1:03:43

for a lot of people. But

1:03:46

you know, it'll bounce back. I think, I think there's

1:03:48

consolidation and a lot of, you know, paramount that they're

1:03:50

looking for buyers so that, you know, they, they'll figure

1:03:52

things out. But right now it's a little slow for

1:03:54

sure. When

1:03:57

do they predict it'll bounce back? Do you know? The

1:03:59

phrase is. Stay alive till 25. Like

1:04:02

the beginning, middle, end? Yes, no

1:04:05

one knows. Okay. That's just circulating

1:04:07

the internet now. Does it cause people

1:04:09

to... Are you freaking out at all? Yeah,

1:04:11

all of us are, I think. Because

1:04:15

first there were the strikes and then before

1:04:17

that there was the pandemic. And

1:04:19

so yeah, I mean, all of us are

1:04:22

just looking other ways to stay alive

1:04:24

till 25. Right. It's

1:04:26

interesting. My therapist

1:04:29

used to work in television. I

1:04:32

don't know. Behind the... Maybe

1:04:35

he's an executive or something. I don't know. We

1:04:37

haven't really talked about it. I just know it because I saw

1:04:39

her LinkedIn or something a long time ago. But

1:04:42

whenever I talk to her about how slow

1:04:44

podcast ads are right now, she'll be

1:04:47

like, it's the whole industry. Oh, really?

1:04:50

Yeah. So I just assume... Or you know what?

1:04:52

It's probably not because she used to work in it. It's

1:04:54

probably because most of her clients are in. Yeah.

1:04:57

Because of the location. Yeah. But

1:04:59

yeah, she seems to constantly

1:05:02

be talking about how everything

1:05:04

is contracting right now.

1:05:07

But yeah, when they contract it, it'll expand again.

1:05:09

That's what happens. It's a cycle. I mean, God

1:05:11

willing. Yeah. Seth

1:05:13

Eisenberg says, any good stories of

1:05:16

stupid executives meddling in your TV writing?

1:05:18

It's one of the stories... I tell many of the stories in

1:05:20

the book. So in

1:05:23

my show, I opened with that. I

1:05:27

was on a show and the

1:05:29

scene required to have a

1:05:32

love poem. So I took one from the public domain and I

1:05:34

put it in the show and I got a call from the

1:05:37

studio. This love poem, it's not working

1:05:39

for us. Can you make it better? Because

1:05:42

I didn't even write that love poem. I took it from

1:05:44

the public. And it was written by a guy named William

1:05:46

Shakespeare. So yeah,

1:05:49

kind of makes Shakespeare better. Did

1:05:51

you punch it up? Yeah. I mean,

1:05:53

we had to find something else, but it's like, yeah, what are you

1:05:55

going to do? Shakespeare would have gotten notes

1:05:57

for sure. Right. Right.

1:06:00

that. You write something on your own. That

1:06:02

was part of the calling to write a book was

1:06:04

just like, and an audio book from it was like,

1:06:07

I want to do something without the notes. What would

1:06:09

that feel like without being told

1:06:11

you're doing it wrong? Like I'll turn in

1:06:13

a script, a pilot, anything, doesn't matter. And

1:06:16

you'll turn in on a Monday and then

1:06:18

later that afternoon they'll send you an email,

1:06:20

great, let's set up a notes call. Can

1:06:25

it be perfect? No, no, no, no, no. We have notes.

1:06:28

We have something we have to say. This is our

1:06:30

job. We get paid to say something. So you're going

1:06:32

to get notes. And so

1:06:34

I just like, what would it feel like to

1:06:36

do something on my own without getting notes? Right.

1:06:40

And it sounds like it feels pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I

1:06:42

just want to write. I want to do more of it. That's

1:06:45

why I'm excited about touring and writing more

1:06:47

just because yeah, it's good.

1:06:49

It reminds me of the joy you get of

1:06:51

writing something, you know. Do you

1:06:53

want to go back on staff? Yeah.

1:06:55

I mean, it's a good job, but

1:06:58

it doesn't have the pull

1:07:00

that this has for me. The pull of

1:07:02

writing and performing and just doing something so

1:07:05

creative that I feel like it's like my

1:07:07

best work. Are

1:07:09

you going to do another book? Oh, I've already started writing it.

1:07:12

Really? What is it? It's more of the same,

1:07:14

more stories, personal essays. What

1:07:19

else? I don't know. What

1:07:21

else? We're best friends. I know. The

1:07:24

pauses are natural. Yeah, I know.

1:07:26

It's a comfortable kind of

1:07:29

silence. Michael

1:07:33

Jammon. You're

1:07:36

the only Jammon I know. There's not many of us,

1:07:39

but it's a biblical name. It's in

1:07:41

the Bible. And my father told

1:07:43

me that because I didn't write it. He said,

1:07:46

I said, what's this character, this Jammon like?

1:07:48

He goes, he's a character of little

1:07:50

significance. Like,

1:07:52

the Polonius. I

1:07:55

guess Polonius has more significance. It was inconsequential.

1:07:57

Right. The family line is kind of like,

1:08:00

continued all the lessons. Michael

1:08:02

Jamman, you're a

1:08:04

writer of big significance. I've

1:08:07

done some significant writing about that. Yeah,

1:08:09

thank you so much for coming on the

1:08:12

show. Oh, actually I do wanna ask you,

1:08:14

okay. So I follow you and I remember

1:08:16

seeing your residual things and being entertained, but

1:08:20

then you reached out to me about

1:08:22

being my best friend and coming on the

1:08:24

show. Is that cause you

1:08:26

saw me following you? How did this happen? That's

1:08:29

a good question. I don't remember. I

1:08:33

may have even like Googled, you know, top

1:08:35

podcasts. I talked to people or just didn't,

1:08:37

you know, so I don't- I prefer that.

1:08:40

I prefer that that, yeah, for you did your

1:08:42

research in it, said you got to go on

1:08:44

this one, but I didn't know. Yeah, I don't

1:08:46

remember how I found you, but I'm glad I did.

1:08:49

Yeah, I know. Otherwise some other person would

1:08:51

be your best friend. I don't like the

1:08:53

sound of it. I get very

1:08:55

jealous. Yeah, I don't think that would be great.

1:09:00

I think we've done it. We did it.

1:09:02

Tell everyone where they can find you, where

1:09:05

they can get the book, et cetera. Well, you can

1:09:07

get the book or the audio book. You

1:09:10

can go to michaeljammond.com/book and then there are

1:09:12

links and you can either get a signed

1:09:14

copy on my website or you can get

1:09:16

on Amazon or barnesandnoble.com or you can get

1:09:18

on Apple or the Audible or Spotify or-

1:09:20

All the places one gets a book these

1:09:22

days. You know where a book, yeah, anywhere

1:09:24

you can get a book. Yeah, the library.

1:09:27

You get it to library. Yeah.

1:09:30

Perfect. Yeah. And then

1:09:32

your podcast, which we didn't even talk about. No,

1:09:34

we did. No, we didn't. We talked

1:09:36

about it off air. Yeah. You have a podcast.

1:09:39

What's it called? What the hell is

1:09:41

Michael Jammond talking about? And it's

1:09:44

currently not, new episodes

1:09:46

are not forthcoming, but there's hundreds of

1:09:48

episodes out there. Yeah. So if

1:09:50

they're like, I need more jamming,

1:09:52

straighten my veins. There's that.

1:09:55

The old archive ones are on my sub stack. Let's

1:09:57

go get on my sub stack. Get on your sub

1:09:59

stack. Yeah. And what's is

1:10:01

it just michaeljammond.substack.com? Yeah, you know

1:10:03

what that is. Yeah. Well while you're

1:10:05

there get on my sub

1:10:07

stack alisonrosin.substack agree.com. Yeah, I

1:10:10

just wrote a post my

1:10:13

seven Favorite

1:10:15

adam corolla show guests and a few I didn't

1:10:17

care for uh It's

1:10:20

a non-exhaustive list And

1:10:23

I suspect you would want to read

1:10:25

that alisonrosin.substack.com Yeah, I know. Um, I

1:10:28

was like Who

1:10:32

isn't gonna want to read this send? Yeah.

1:10:34

Yeah good for you. Thank you. Yeah, I gotta

1:10:36

be careful though I don't want to I don't

1:10:39

want to be tawdry, but you name names I

1:10:42

named some names. Yeah Well,

1:10:44

they'll never know unless they Subscribe

1:10:47

that's right or someone tells them don't

1:10:49

tell them. Yeah Um,

1:10:51

all right This has been

1:10:53

delightful. I loved it. Thank you so much. Thank

1:10:55

you for having me. It was a

1:10:57

pleasure. Yeah, it's what best friends do.

1:10:59

Yep. Yep Listeners,

1:11:03

thank you for listening. Oh, if you'd

1:11:05

like what you're hearing make sure you're

1:11:07

subscribed click five stars Leave us a

1:11:09

review tell a friend do all those

1:11:11

things Uh listeners, thank

1:11:13

you for listening. I love you. You matter.

1:11:16

Goodbye. Goodbye Hey We

1:11:25

Had a good time, but

1:11:27

now we gotta go Yeah

1:11:34

alisonrosin is

1:11:36

your new best friend