0:07

Hello and welcome to American Friction,

0:09

the new weekly US politics podcast from

0:12

the makers of Oh God What Now,

0:14

The Bunker and Papercuts. I'm Jacob Jarvis.

0:17

And I'm Chris Jones. Every week in the

0:19

run up to November's US presidential election we'll

0:21

be unpacking everything you need to know about

0:23

the big vote in November. And if you've

0:25

been paying any attention over the last week

0:27

or so, things have just got a whole

0:29

lot tastier. Joining

0:32

us as always is the raddest

0:34

Rolling Stoner you ever did me,

0:36

politics reporter Nikki McCann Ramirez. And

0:38

she actually joins us in London today.

0:40

Nikki, how are you and how's London?

0:43

Amazing. I am minding the gap

0:45

and taking names. Nice. I'm really glad you're real,

0:47

man. It's good. It's good. You're not like an

0:49

AI that's just been zooming us all this time.

0:51

Some relief. Yeah. So in this episode, we're going

0:53

to talk about the fallout of the Trump verdict.

0:55

Now we've had a bit of time to process

0:58

it. Then we'll round up stories

1:00

like what's going on with the Freedom Caucus,

1:02

election denial, getting cranked up and attacks on

1:04

Anthony Fauci. You're listening to

1:06

American Friction. Quickly

1:10

then, before we begin, we want to say a

1:12

massive thank you to everyone who has listened to

1:14

American Friction so far. We're going to be here

1:16

every step of the way until the US election

1:18

and we need your support to spread the word.

1:20

If you can share this episode with a few

1:22

of your friends, drop them a WhatsApp, tell them

1:24

about it over a brewski or a ball game

1:26

or something like that. America. So

1:28

onto the stories. First up, the

1:31

Trump world is going crazy, well,

1:33

more crazy than it was before

1:35

after the Trump trial verdict. Nikki,

1:38

what has Trump said since being found

1:40

guilty beyond his initial, I'm

1:42

a very innocent man line? I

1:44

mean, he still maintains that he is

1:46

a very, very good and innocent boy

1:48

who has been wrongly maligned by

1:51

the American justice system. I think the

1:53

biggest thing we've seen

1:55

so far is him

1:58

posting on Truth Social that the Supreme Court should

2:00

intervene on his behalf. Basically

2:03

he wrote out that this

2:05

judge is super corrupt, that it makes no

2:07

sense that a president can be

2:09

indicted in this manner during a campaign, and

2:12

the United States Supreme Court must

2:14

decide. And this

2:17

really echoed something that Speaker Mike

2:19

Johnson had said in an interview

2:21

with Fox News over

2:24

the weekend where he also basically said that,

2:26

like, oh, I know a lot of the

2:28

Supreme Court justices and they're very concerned, and

2:30

they'll get this resolved, but it might take

2:32

some time. Which also raises a lot

2:34

of questions about, like, why the hell are

2:36

Supreme Court justices communicating so directly with the

2:38

Speaker of the House? If

2:41

anyone saw last week, Chief

2:45

Justice John Roberts refused to meet

2:47

with Democratic members of the Senate

2:49

regarding, you know, all the ethical stuff we've

2:51

talked about, about Justice Alito because he

2:53

said it would be inappropriate. So there

2:55

seems to be this growing narrative amongst right-wing

2:58

leadership in Congress, Trump

3:00

himself, that the Supreme Court will intervene in this case.

3:03

Obviously, before that happens, before

3:05

a case of this nature could be escalated

3:07

to the Supreme Court, it would need to

3:09

go through the criminal state appeals process. We

3:12

expect that any day now. Trump,

3:14

his legal team, have all made it incredibly clear that

3:17

they plan to appeal. So

3:19

that's, like, the big legal logistical stuff.

3:21

The other silly thing he said was he

3:23

claimed he never said that Hillary should go

3:25

to prison. Yeah. Because, like,

3:27

there are hours and hours of

3:30

tape of that. Also, he

3:32

never said when his supporters were chanting, lock

3:34

her up. He was never like, oh, guys,

3:36

don't say that. Yeah. He

3:38

was never like, no, no, no, don't do that. Locking

3:41

up a candidate is bad. No, he

3:43

was fully for it. Yeah, it's

3:45

very strange. The hypocrisy on show

3:48

I have found massively baffling.

3:50

And the constant, oh, the deep stays out to

3:52

get me, but then I'll use the deep state

3:54

when I become president again to get my revenge.

3:56

It just Doesn't make much sense.

3:58

Fox And friends, though, they gave me a

4:01

call. in really softball. Interview. Didn't

4:03

they in his framing of a he is,

4:05

he's been quite bombast states. But do they

4:07

want him to look like this kind of

4:10

this? Wade's dichotomy. The on one hand he's

4:12

a super strong lead us and by Golden

4:14

to and on to sort it out. But

4:16

then he goes on fox and friends to

4:19

be like oh man, I'm just a guy,

4:21

a normal guy and they spoke to me

4:23

how far as I'm somehow sad for me

4:25

is that light how he's playing in just

4:28

a really weird way. As me, it's It's

4:30

really funny. One of the jokes that's been

4:32

going around. On the Internet is that Republicans

4:34

are going to do more for criminal justice

4:36

reform in the United States in the next

4:38

hundred days than they have in the last

4:40

hundred years. Because I think

4:43

it's really obvious that Republicans that,

4:45

like, especially in the last fifty

4:47

years, have been that tough on

4:49

crime. Really A press is. Almost.

4:53

Parole party when it comes to how they

4:55

be the justice system and how criminal defendant

4:57

should be treated. And. All.

5:00

Throughout the last week's of the

5:02

trial, especially as the jury was

5:04

deliberating, you saw every anchor on

5:06

Soft News talk about the poor

5:08

play of the incarcerated. Americans whose

5:10

rights are consistently. Being

5:13

violated and to be clearer, be American

5:15

Just the. Justice system is fucked up in a

5:17

lotta ways, and criminal justice reform. Is

5:19

absolutely necessary. White.

5:21

Collar crime like what Trump is accused

5:24

of is like bottom of the list.

5:26

You're in terms of what sort of

5:28

criminal justice reform need sticklers in this

5:30

country. If anything, Prosecutors.

5:33

It's be focusing more on white collar

5:35

crime than like prosecuting petty, low level

5:38

non violent criminal offenses. That's just my

5:40

field. Third, are way too many people

5:42

at Rikers. Trump is not going to be one of

5:44

them. It's been made pretty clear that the

5:46

odds and him going to prison or incredibly.

5:49

Slim. Fox. News

5:51

since. trump's arrival

5:54

to the presidency has basically

5:56

operated as a revolving door

5:58

for his administration former People

6:00

who were hosted Fox News advised the White House.

6:02

Some of them go on to work there. People

6:05

who worked at the Trump White House now work at Fox

6:07

News. It's an incredibly

6:09

incestuous little cohort. Essentially,

6:11

they're just like trading talking points with

6:13

each other. And yeah, Fox

6:16

is a place where Trump feels safe. So obviously, he

6:18

wasn't going to go to a CNN or an MSNBC

6:20

to give his first big interview after the trial. He

6:23

was going to go to Fox News because he

6:25

knows that it's not only a network that is

6:27

friendly to him, but there

6:29

won't be pushback. There won't be critical

6:31

analysis of the trial. It'll just be

6:33

a nice little platform for him to

6:35

spew the same kind of messaging he's

6:37

been putting out this entire time to

6:39

an audience that's already receptive. And

6:42

I think it worked well for him. He's putting

6:44

out this image of like, oh, poor me. This

6:47

is so unfair. The criminal justice

6:49

system is so corrupt. Trump

6:51

is the same guy who called for

6:53

five teenagers who were falsely accused of

6:55

a rape and a murder to be

6:57

executed. Yeah. Like the

6:59

fact that anyone would buy this also like boggles

7:01

the mind. But here we are. So

7:04

we'll talk about a lot of the

7:06

online reaction, but I saw this meme

7:08

going around that was an AI generated

7:10

image of Trump looking really, really jacked

7:13

with tattoos and stuff. And people were like, you think

7:15

Trump going to jail is going to make him weaker?

7:17

No, it would just make him stronger. He's going to

7:19

grind whilst he's in there or whatever. But yeah, Trump

7:21

won't go to a, he's not going to go to

7:23

a horrible jail and rot even if he does go

7:25

to jail, is he? So in the public eye, it's

7:27

not like one of those people who get

7:30

sent to jail on something that maybe they

7:32

shouldn't have. And then the justice system is

7:34

so fucked and their opportunities for

7:36

recourse are so bad that they get

7:38

stuck in a system forever. Trump's not just going to

7:40

get stuck, is he? So it kind of doesn't

7:43

work in that kind of way. On him

7:45

being a bit of a tough nut, as

7:47

he seems to want to act

7:49

like he is, he's basically threatening the

7:51

nation in some ways, isn't he? By

7:53

saying, if I do get

7:55

sent to jail, which as you mentioned, doesn't seem all

7:57

that likely necessarily, but he's saying if I do, my

8:00

supporters won't, they won't accept that.

8:02

And we've seen the political violence

8:04

that they've engaged in, which he

8:07

denies riling up despite him now

8:09

saying stuff that would be

8:11

riling that up. Does he actually

8:13

think that bullying the judges and bullying the public

8:15

will work for him in the election? Does he

8:17

think that maybe some people will go, oh shit,

8:19

well I can't not vote for Trump or I

8:21

can't vote for Biden because well the

8:24

world's just going to implode if I do,

8:26

like there's the lesser of two evils is

8:29

like having Trump in the White House or

8:31

having civil war. I

8:33

think there's a couple different factors at play

8:35

here. I think obviously Trump riles

8:38

up his base. It's

8:41

a tactic that's used pretty

8:43

ubiquitously throughout the right. We've also

8:45

saw it a lot with Tucker

8:47

Carlson where like these

8:49

figures with massive platforms will target

8:52

individuals that they don't like and

8:54

knowing that their supporters will

8:56

go out, harass them, potentially try

8:59

and commit violence against them. We

9:01

know that Michael Cohen's mother was

9:04

swatted like the day

9:06

after the trial ended or like a couple

9:08

days after the trial ended, I think during

9:11

jury deliberations. For people who don't know, swadding

9:13

is basically when you call the police and

9:15

make a fake report saying that like someone

9:17

was murdered or there was a shooting or a

9:19

bomb threat with the intent

9:21

that the American police, which are

9:23

highly militarized and don't really ask

9:26

questions before shooting, like show up

9:28

to a person's house, break down

9:30

the doors. There's always the potential

9:32

that they might harm someone in

9:34

the process of responding to it. But even

9:36

if they don't harm anyone, it's an

9:38

incredibly scary, incredibly violating event to do to

9:40

someone. There's not a lot of

9:43

recourse for it. That happens fairly often. Then

9:45

of course we have larger

9:47

scale instances of violence by

9:49

Trump supporters, like the most

9:52

notable one being January 6th.

9:54

This whole notion that I

9:56

think Trump, In

9:59

his mind, Don't believe that he

10:01

can mobilize the supporters in this way. The

10:03

thing I think it's important to remember is

10:05

that in the aftermath of January Sixth, When.

10:08

We saw all the conspiracy. Theories about

10:10

the like riot been orchestrated by

10:12

like undercover federal operatives. and then

10:15

of course. All of the

10:17

prosecution's of January six participants

10:19

bear has been a really

10:22

interesting trend within like right

10:24

wing social media spaces where.

10:26

whenever. There's a major event that

10:29

Trump. Is like to come out. Protests are like.

10:31

Republicans. Are like we need to stand

10:33

up against his. Trump's supporters

10:35

themselves will say no, no, no, don't do

10:37

that. This is a sign up. They want

10:40

you to do that so they can crack

10:42

down on us like they did on January

10:44

Six. and it's by no means a full

10:46

week. But. I think in

10:48

the aftermath of January Six, the

10:50

legal response to that event has

10:52

really made a. Lot of Trump supporters

10:55

pump the brakes. On how much

10:57

they themselves. Want. To be

10:59

involved in actions of political violence. Because

11:02

I do think on January Six there was

11:04

definitely a contingent of people who showed up

11:06

to the protests and ended up in or

11:08

why it. It. Was an all day

11:10

event that began at the mall. It

11:12

moved and like organically. Crowds.

11:15

Shit like are saved and respond to stimuli differently

11:17

and I have no doubt that there were people.

11:19

Who showed up thinking they were just going to protest and they all

11:21

of a sudden it was like wait, Holy shit they're breaking

11:23

down the doors of the capital. That

11:26

is not to excuse the people who

11:28

beat up cops. It was a massive

11:30

crowd and I think those kinds of

11:32

people who are like ah, if I

11:34

show up to this action and they

11:36

crack down and start arresting people or

11:38

sorry, like you know, Going.

11:40

After the people who were present do I

11:42

want to be involved in that? So I

11:44

think obviously it's a scare tactic by Trump.

11:46

He knows that if he phrases his words

11:48

carefully, it'll be interpreted as like, oh, he's

11:51

inciting violence, but then at the same time

11:53

he's also preserving that political cover of saying

11:55

like, oh, I say my supporters will be

11:57

happy But I just mean. They're gonna vote for

11:59

me at. The Box. And. It's

12:01

like you know it's very careful language

12:03

that serves multiple purposes. Chris on the

12:05

by box side of things and so

12:07

how does it seem that Americans on

12:09

the whole from polling we spoke about

12:11

pulling in the past bears on sealed

12:14

in the theoretical like how would you

12:16

feel if Trump was convicted? Now we

12:18

actually know how be present a feeling

12:20

now Trump has been convicted, they won't.

12:22

What are we saying that. Well.

12:24

To just go over how of

12:26

Americans? In general feeling about

12:28

this right now of is being

12:30

sued to former colleagues of Mine

12:33

site Partisan and Bungie Higher who

12:35

would. Sue. X and journalists and have

12:37

been giving this from the start and

12:39

that Brits is most it a habit

12:41

a curiosity about as been asking lots

12:43

of Americans how to feel and it

12:45

really is mixed as a lot of

12:47

people who just don't give a shit

12:49

I'd to be quite honest or more

12:51

people that tap out for example out

12:54

childcare is going to get better and

12:56

who is the candidate as likely to

12:58

improve child gets to give us some

13:00

perspective. Childcare is considered affordable in the

13:02

U S of it costs around about

13:04

seven percent of household income but. According

13:06

to care.com right now the average spent on

13:08

childcare is about twenty four percent which is

13:10

Matt so this is an issue. Does this

13:13

massive that people actually care about the you

13:15

ask me about the polling so I'll tell

13:17

you about the polling. Ah yes, very welcome.

13:19

Arms Prices podcast I guess so I looked

13:21

at it. Sauce on sale, people really fell

13:24

and you could spin this. You know data

13:26

that a few different ways. you could say

13:28

the half of Americans think that Trump should

13:30

end his campaign now these been convicted. You

13:33

could also say that half of America as

13:35

be the trial. was politically motivated so

13:37

it can be spun and in

13:39

both ways necessary which conflicts and

13:41

data so me headlines that conflict

13:43

teacher they just depends on he

13:45

trust and there was also some

13:47

more data from reuters has suggested

13:49

that one in ten registered republican

13:51

voters when less likely to vote

13:53

for trump now that this conviction

13:55

as come forward which i think

13:57

alex and dry you have meant

14:00

on ogle.now in

14:02

our recent episode and that's quite important to

14:04

take note of. Yeah well is that worth

14:07

looking at because a lot of the headlines

14:09

have been yeah a load of Republicans are

14:11

still gonna vote for him no matter what

14:13

but those people were gonna vote for him

14:15

no matter what no matter what

14:17

weren't they so that one in ten actually

14:20

could become more significant than the

14:22

however large amount of number who

14:24

are saying it's not changed their

14:26

vote. Yeah look Trump

14:28

is unlikely to really have

14:30

gained much support from this he

14:33

has as we can tell from

14:35

these polls lost one in ten Republican voters

14:37

but what we can't tell from these polls

14:40

is where these people's votes

14:42

might go elsewhere they might just not vote

14:45

they could vote for Kennedy who

14:47

knows. We also don't know yeah exactly

14:49

and we also don't know where these

14:52

people who took part in this poll

14:54

are so to put it bluntly

14:56

their vote might not have even mattered anyway. There's

14:59

lots of ways that you can look at this but as

15:02

I say Trump hasn't gained any support from

15:04

this but I think it's really interesting to

15:06

look at what independence of thinking and polling

15:09

suggests that over half of them that they

15:11

just don't care and 25% of

15:13

independent voters said that this conviction would make

15:15

them less likely to vote for Trump. So

15:19

I think it's worth paying attention

15:21

to independence and how they're taking

15:23

Trump at the moment rather than

15:25

perhaps GOP voters because we

15:27

know how they feel. Yeah you've

15:29

given me a lot of nice

15:31

you know statistical stuff there on

15:34

America at large let's get to

15:36

the anecdotal side of things a

15:38

little bit though there's just been

15:40

some really deranged stuff. Yeah in

15:42

the kind of like the really

15:44

hardcore Trump supporting world I mean

15:46

I mentioned the weird AI

15:48

images which are just like you know

15:51

really really strange but it's quite dark

15:53

isn't it what is being said in

15:56

some places. It's really dark. You

15:58

Look at some of these chat rooms. That

16:00

is I still the time Chalmers show

16:02

names on the environs message boards and

16:05

so of it is just wild. For

16:07

example, I look to his website Go

16:09

Patriots.when. Okay nice I yeah

16:11

yeah really cool son website and

16:14

or effect out three comments that

16:16

as was and is also love

16:18

comments have been removed around what's

16:21

been said and sounds of this

16:23

conviction on not going to name

16:25

the uses. But. I'll read

16:27

what they said. The bible says the

16:30

people applauding this verdict or deserve to

16:32

be rounded up in concentration camps. Another

16:34

one said any reasonable response by Trump

16:36

should should he regained the President Sea

16:38

Resorts in all of their deaths already.

16:41

All of them nail in for a

16:43

penny in for a pound and the

16:45

third one is could have a conversation

16:47

between two and says add they won't

16:50

be able to walk the streets and

16:52

earth's response is why not and then

16:54

the response of that is the question

16:56

mark. I'm a nice about the

16:59

jewelry. Lots of talk about people wanting

17:01

to find out who the jury is

17:03

and and hunt them down but also

17:05

about the judge as well as really

17:07

scary stuff is really dogs have nothing

17:10

to exemplifies just how how loyal from

17:12

the a supporter ship. On. The

17:14

really far I really is and

17:16

it's really scary yeah and it's

17:18

not even just on the stove.

17:20

Message boards that people may be

17:22

feel anonymous says kind of been

17:24

podcast southern that from high profile

17:26

be the right wing is also

17:28

cause I gleefully saying yeah people

17:30

kids. People. Should be rounded up

17:32

there and kills get people to go

17:35

to say. Really, really harsh

17:37

and controversial but also massively incorrect

17:39

things. the I'm Without Punishment is

17:41

is really is really quite scary

17:43

Yeah kids in I'd as this

17:45

one in Ten republican side and

17:48

this drop in school aspect though

17:50

could just be. Temporary were

17:52

very much in the immediate aftermath

17:54

as still a long time to

17:56

go until November and also people

17:58

have just got used. The him

18:00

doing awful stuff. Over and

18:02

I haven't. they this to me and for

18:05

sure there is could just fall into the

18:07

warship. Oh yeah, Trump does that stuff, but

18:09

I like him. He could maybe negate that

18:11

one in ten by saying oh, I'm gonna

18:13

do this thing you like. A

18:15

Nobel? Okay, I can forget about that

18:17

thing because now now and I do,

18:20

I mean Trump. Very. Infamously said.

18:22

He could shoot someone on says Avenue and

18:24

he wouldn't lose any voters. And I

18:26

think he has a shot anyone. But it's

18:28

It's held pretty true yet of the poll

18:31

after that as well, which did say that

18:33

that was like people agreed with I Gambino.

18:35

seats theoretical to the haven't shiny mom yet.

18:39

But people to say I feel some I'm

18:41

up by possibly would still votes him So

18:43

yet as a long time to go where

18:45

people can change their mind or three frame

18:48

this decision. Process. Is

18:50

guiding us does the point is a

18:52

long way to go still in terms

18:54

of campaigning in the election but this

18:57

poll by the reference you from Cnn.

18:59

Asked Trump supporters if they

19:01

would reconsider. Voting. For Trump

19:04

if convicted and twenty four percent said

19:06

yes but the wording in size? Really

19:08

interesting. The wedding reconsider is not necessarily.

19:10

I'm not going to vote third from

19:12

because of this conviction so we have

19:14

a long time as loss to think

19:16

about for these these voters. They.

19:18

Might still vote for Trump, Who knows.

19:21

Nicky On a final note on on

19:23

this side of things. So Boyd and

19:25

we've spoken about plenty in the past

19:27

obviously, but we spoke about saying he

19:29

had to be somewhat cautious and how

19:31

he reacts around this because the big

19:33

thing you can't do is feed all

19:35

the conspiracy charles him. Go see. It

19:37

was unfair as politically motivated and Biden

19:39

was really orchestrating everything. How do you

19:41

think he has played it since the

19:43

the conviction came out. As we talked

19:45

about it are like immediate reaction to the

19:47

Trump verdict. There was some chatter that Biden

19:50

would like to bow and. Like.

19:52

address this in a speech or something it turned

19:54

out not to be a speech it was just

19:56

a statement put out through the biden harris campaign

19:58

being like he noticed slanted This is like

20:01

the American system at work,

20:04

but regardless of this conviction, Trump

20:06

is going to be the nominee in November and we

20:08

still need to vote and we still need to mobilize.

20:10

That was their messaging. He

20:12

addressed it, I think, yesterday

20:14

or Sunday at a rally,

20:16

but very briefly. And

20:19

then the one moment where you

20:21

could tell that like Biden is probably being reined in

20:23

by his staff of it was he was

20:26

speaking at the White House and he was like leaving

20:28

the podium. He was walking away and

20:30

some reporter yelled a question about the verdict

20:32

at him and he like paused and

20:35

he like slowly turned around and he

20:38

like gave the smile and it was like a very

20:40

knowing smile. It was one of those like, you know,

20:44

you know kind of smiles. And

20:46

then he like paused and like stopped and was like, ah,

20:49

I'm going to say something. No, I'm not going to

20:51

say something. And then he walked away. Everyone was

20:53

just like, oh, he fucking knows. And

20:55

some right wingers were like, ah, you see, this is

20:58

proof. This is proof that he knows and that he

21:00

orchestrated it. But I don't

21:02

know. I think Biden as a politician, like

21:04

ever since he was in the Senate has always had

21:06

a bit of a reputation for putting

21:09

his foot in his mouth and saying things when

21:11

he's not supposed to say them. The

21:13

kind of funny one was on the Affordable

21:16

Care Act passed that Obama was giving a

21:18

speech and he like turned around to shake

21:20

Biden's hand and Biden says, this is a

21:22

big fucking deal into like a hot mic

21:24

not knowing the mic was still going.

21:27

So you know, he does tend to be

21:30

a bit impulsive, but I think overall the

21:32

campaign strategy has been to keep

21:34

the messaging on this extremely tight and like

21:36

pretty strategic about when they bring it

21:39

up because I don't think they just want

21:41

to go super loosey goosey on

21:43

it and risk it becoming

21:45

the meat of the campaign because at the end

21:47

of the day, even from their initial statement, what

21:50

they are saying is that this conviction is

21:52

not Going

21:54

to stop Trump from running or potentially

21:56

assuming the presidency. Like if they want

21:58

him out of office. Biden.

22:01

Needs to win the elections. I think that's

22:03

gonna be they're fake angle. Going. Into

22:05

this. Would

22:12

you? Would you make

22:14

me want. To

22:18

me. The boat. Oh

22:21

good. Now he would you know bullshit

22:23

politics for goes with me to release

22:25

these journalists, comedians and commentators twice a

22:27

week. We follow pretty soon as deemed

22:29

point. will keep of critical eye on

22:31

his dorm, his progress, look at the

22:33

big issues that will shape the boat,

22:35

and have a desperately needed laugh as

22:37

well. We're probably independent so we don't

22:39

have to stick to Faith Balance who

22:41

give a week. Both sides take on

22:43

any issue we can call it for

22:45

as we see it and we can

22:47

swim suit. So if you're

22:49

looking for election coverage the catches happened

22:52

to really feel try. Oh God what?

22:54

Now I can see now says Brilliant

22:56

conversation and jokes twice a week with

22:58

extra special editions in the run up

23:00

to the election to find us on

23:02

Apple, podcasts, Spotify and whatever else you

23:04

get, your podcasts. Now.

23:14

It's time to round up a few

23:16

other stories that you might have missed

23:18

a Made Wells. Everything has been going

23:20

on. First up, the Freedom Caucus has

23:23

a little bit of drama within it's

23:25

ranks. Nicky first move very quickly. Can

23:27

you just tell me what? I'm an

23:29

idiot? War is? you are terrorists. Thanks

23:32

man. Damn more is the Freedom Caucus

23:34

listener. Being in this room and experiencing

23:36

this dynamic is quite different. Had her

23:38

since I've been on a cell at

23:41

the Mountain of I mean Assist Snow.

23:43

Freedom Caucus as kind of

23:45

always had drama that. You're never

23:47

going to sell dog as an

23:49

offer a cock. As for those.

23:52

That are neither is obviously like

23:54

there's the Senate. There's. The House.

23:56

The. House has hundreds hundreds of

23:59

members, so. So, Democrats,

24:01

there's Republicans, and within each party,

24:04

legislators will form kind of

24:07

smaller little clubs, little groups,

24:09

little caucuses around sort

24:12

of unifying ideals. They will craft legislation

24:14

together when bills are submitted. They will

24:16

sign on to stuff. They'll

24:19

vote together, especially in a

24:21

system where you only have two political parties

24:24

and you don't really have the formation

24:26

of coalitions. Caucuses,

24:28

in a very sort

24:30

of light way, are

24:32

a mechanism of coalition building. For example, on the

24:34

Democratic side, you have the Progressive Caucus. So if

24:36

you want a certain bill to pass, you might

24:39

go to the Progressive Caucus and be like, okay,

24:41

what can we give you to get

24:43

the votes of your members? And there

24:45

is an official process for forming these

24:47

caucuses. So the

24:50

right, the Republicans in the House have

24:53

always had a very ...

24:55

anyone in time, there's always been just

24:57

like really one extreme right-wing caucus amongst

25:00

the many. It used to be

25:02

the Tea Party. That one was like the big

25:04

one. I think it started under Bush. It was

25:06

really big under Obama. And

25:08

then the Freedom Caucus was formed in

25:11

2015 by former Tea Party members

25:13

who were like pissed off

25:15

with the Republican leadership. And

25:18

it's an interesting thing because it's very cyclical.

25:20

The Tea Party used to be what the

25:22

Freedom Caucus is today. It was like the

25:24

most powerful caucus in the House of

25:26

Representatives. And now it's irrelevant. I'm not

25:28

even sure it exists yet. I haven't

25:30

Googled it in ages. But anyway, it

25:34

started out as a legislative group.

25:37

They were trying to come at the Republican leadership

25:39

of the House from the right. And

25:41

then when Trump was elected, it really stopped

25:44

being a legislative coalition

25:46

and became a pro-Trump

25:49

group. All it does. Literally

25:52

a Trump surrogacy coalition within

25:55

the House of Representatives. One

25:58

of the notable things about this caucus is that that

26:00

virtually from its inception, it has

26:02

been fighting with whatever Republican speaker

26:04

of the House exists. They

26:07

were instrumental in the removal of

26:09

John Boner, Boehner, Boehner, Boner, Boehner,

26:11

I think it's Boehner. Anyway,

26:15

it just, it goes out of the gut, you know?

26:17

You read it and it doesn't read like it sounds.

26:22

They were instrumental in his removal. Paul

26:25

Ryan really had to negotiate with them

26:28

to become elected speaker. The

26:31

Freedom Caucus really came into what

26:33

it is now. The

26:36

big pivotal moment was when Kevin

26:38

McCarthy became speaker in 2023 because

26:40

the Republican majority

26:43

was so narrow after the

26:45

American midterms in 2022 that McCarthy needed

26:47

virtually every

26:51

Republican vote to get elected. If you remember,

26:53

it was upwards of a dozen votes for him to get

26:55

elected. The Freedom Caucus basically came

26:57

to him and said, we will vote for you

27:00

if you give us all of these

27:02

concessions, amongst them being the rule that

27:04

they eventually used to kick him out,

27:06

basically saying that any member of Congress could

27:09

introduce a motion to vacate against the speaker. The

27:12

request they made really stripped the speaker

27:14

of a lot of the powers that

27:16

they had. But also what

27:18

it did was members like Matt Gaetz

27:21

and Marjorie Taylor Greene, because

27:23

they chose to back McCarthy, one

27:25

of the things they got in

27:27

exchange was when Republicans took

27:29

over this current Congress, people

27:32

like Marjorie Taylor Greene, and here we go, we

27:34

mentioned her another episode. She's coming up later as

27:36

well. She is coming up later. They were

27:38

granted positions on very powerful

27:40

House committees, which is

27:42

why now you see Marjorie Taylor

27:44

Greene fucking up the

27:47

House Oversight Committee every other week.

27:49

These people, through these negotiations,

27:51

the Freedom Caucus ended up holding a ton

27:53

of really powerful positions, like Jim Jordan, also

27:56

a member of the House Freedom Caucus. Taylor

28:00

Greene did get kicked out of

28:02

the Freedom Caucus. I think it was

28:04

last year because she called Lauren Boebert a bitch

28:06

on the house floor. And it was like

28:08

a whole thing. So she got kicked out,

28:11

but they're all fighting each other right now. So

28:14

specifically then on the Freedom Caucus at

28:16

the minute though, Chris, what is the

28:19

drama that's going on? There's this guy

28:21

Bob Good, who I can't say yet.

28:23

Oh, literally written that down. Oh, absolutely

28:26

fuming. So

28:30

Bob Good's been bad. Is

28:33

that right? What's happening? Yeah, Bob Good

28:35

is now Bob Bad, according

28:37

to Trump. And I'm actually furious that both

28:39

of you have ruined that joke. That very

28:41

niche joke that only I could have come

28:43

up with. But yeah,

28:46

Trump's fallen out with Bob

28:48

Bad, according to that from now

28:50

on. So basically what's happened here, just to

28:53

bring some context actually into this,

28:56

Good slash Bad is

28:59

the Republican representative for Virginia's fifth district.

29:02

He's also basically leader

29:04

of the Freedom Caucus right now.

29:06

He's the chair. He's the chair.

29:08

Yes, he's the chair. So he's

29:10

a very influential figure. And he's

29:12

running for re-election and to aid

29:14

his chances, he's been using Trump's

29:16

face and also

29:18

his Trump's name in all of

29:20

his campaigning on posts

29:22

outside houses, which are all over the place, which

29:25

I didn't really realise would be the case until

29:27

I went to the US and I drove around

29:29

New England and they were literally everywhere. It was

29:31

ridiculous. Did you see the hay bales if you

29:33

were driving around the countryside? I didn't see the

29:36

hay bales. Oh, yeah. If you're like in rural

29:38

areas, they'll like spray paint like Trump 2024 on

29:40

them. Yeah. Well, they're

29:42

everywhere. All of these campaigns are everywhere. And

29:44

basically Bob Good has been using Trump to

29:46

boost his chances of getting elected. But

29:49

there's a massive problem of this because

29:51

Trump hasn't endorsed Bob Good,

29:54

who actually went to Manhattan to support Trump

29:57

in the trial. But Trump.

30:00

As indoors is apart and instead John

30:02

Mcguire I'm and the reason is not.

30:05

Endorsing. Good is because Goods has

30:07

endorsed at the Scientists or Meatball as

30:09

as own term refers to an

30:11

unarmed man with and Florida and he's

30:13

just so good at making have nicknames

30:16

I have really does for story i

30:18

just over two thousand and as

30:20

our yeah exactly people wrong Anyway Trump's

30:22

team is now sent a cease

30:25

and desist notification see good team and

30:27

I'm from even post on true say

30:29

who he said the damage has been

30:32

done. I just wanted a possessing

30:34

tough to make America. Great again and

30:36

the person that can most help me

30:38

do that as Navy Seal and highly

30:40

respected state legislator Sean Maguire. true American

30:43

hero Said Trump's for now is good

30:45

Davis and Good. hasn't got Trump's endorsement

30:47

which is big by them. Yeah strange

30:49

how Trump is bragging about some on

30:52

been like a veteran even though we

30:54

kind of know. He's. Not

30:56

really particularly nice about veterans are know it's

30:58

Friday one rarely know but I feel like

31:00

in America and yeah correct me if I'm

31:03

wrong here. Nicky Butt being nasty about veterans

31:05

as cons like a step too far for

31:07

everyone right? in a Trump's I mean about

31:10

veterans and I will not. he's of that.

31:12

We thought it was a step cr myself.

31:15

Now is it? Really

31:17

is I will the whole thing like at

31:20

the very hims a misnomer where he like

31:22

said about John Mccain is a very famously

31:24

was a prisoner of war. In Vietnam

31:26

that like he prefers to see

31:28

war heroes, you don't get captured.

31:30

I don't know that way. Exact

31:33

quote on so it's not unexpected.

31:35

I would. Also know that there's some. Circling.

31:38

Briefly back to good. To very

31:40

important things here and Trump did indoors good

31:42

and Twenty twenty two. So there was like

31:44

I think also the expectation that he'd get

31:46

the endorsement again. Good

31:48

it did indoors, descents and a primary and

31:51

but then once. Dissent: Is like dropped

31:53

out back trump. another

31:55

thing that kind of went on

31:57

under the radar in april was

32:00

that one of the reasons the Trump campaign

32:02

is sending this cease and desist being like, you're not

32:04

allowed to use our name and image, is that in

32:07

April, the Trump campaign actually sent

32:09

a letter to a bunch of

32:11

down ballot Republicans, like congressional campaigns,

32:14

Senate campaigns, local offices, basically

32:16

being like, you need to pay me if you

32:19

want to use my name, face,

32:21

image in your campaign materials. And

32:24

we've talked a lot about how Trump

32:26

is financing this campaign, but this idea

32:28

that Trump is now collecting royalties from

32:30

other candidates in local elections to use

32:32

his name and image to me is

32:34

just so fucking weird and funny. And

32:36

the RNC also gets a cut of

32:38

that. So the whole thing. Bringing

32:41

it back to November in 2024, though, then, does

32:43

the fact that he's able to do that and

32:45

people kind of roll over and

32:47

are like, fair enough, just show how much

32:52

of a key figure he is, not

32:54

just when it comes to the presidential

32:56

race, but beyond that, he is just

32:58

like so powerful. Yeah, I think there

33:00

is this perception in Republican politics that

33:02

like Trump's endorsement is like the magic

33:04

touch that you'll

33:06

win whatever local race you're in. Blibbidi

33:09

blabbidi. And

33:12

get killed. I

33:14

legit just spammin' bibbidi

33:16

bobbidi. Bibbidi bobbidi.

33:20

That's the official term. I think that was Latin that

33:22

you were speaking. You

33:25

know, look, it's this country.

33:27

It's rubbing off on me. I don't know your

33:29

words, and so I'm inventing them for myself. But

33:32

if you look at like the

33:35

midterm elections that have happened since Trump

33:37

left office, the backlash to Roe v.

33:40

Wade, the argument that Trump is

33:42

like a fully dominating force whose endorsement is

33:44

like a guarantee of a win, I

33:46

don't think it necessarily rings as true

33:48

as people think it does. I

33:51

think especially we talk so much about

33:54

independent voters in this country. Like where do

33:56

those independent voters, they don't all live in

33:58

like Washington, D.C. We are

34:00

literally the pinnacle of taxation without representation.

34:03

They're spread throughout the country and they

34:05

are voting in local elections and they

34:07

are seeing the candidates who are

34:09

representing them on school boards, in their state

34:12

legislatures, in the House of Representatives. And

34:14

I think for a lot of districts and

34:16

a lot of people, Trump

34:19

isn't doing much for them. Trump isn't the

34:21

person they want to see. If anything like

34:23

a Trump endorsement could be potentially damaging in

34:26

some districts. We saw

34:28

after 2022 when Republicans

34:30

were convinced that

34:32

they were going to have this major

34:34

red wave. They were really

34:37

expecting massive gains in the 2022 midterms

34:39

and that did not materialize. And

34:42

the Republican establishment really stamped it

34:45

out pretty quickly. But for a week or two,

34:47

there was a lot of chatter about is

34:49

Trump still the person that we want to

34:52

be putting this party behind because

34:54

we can't necessarily

34:56

make the argument that we

34:59

are getting the electoral

35:01

gains that we're selling to people. So

35:05

in the case of Bob Good, Bob

35:07

Bad, his race with

35:09

John McGuire is close enough that

35:11

the Trump endorsement might actually be

35:14

a pretty critical loss for Good.

35:17

I don't think Republican candidates

35:19

across the board can just bank on

35:21

a Trump endorsement as the winning ticket

35:24

for their race, especially like how we

35:26

talked about last week when abortion is

35:28

such a big issue, when there are

35:30

so many disaffected independent voters, when

35:32

you do have this conviction and all these

35:34

other trials hanging over the head of the

35:37

Republican Party, candidates are going to have to

35:39

bring a lot more to the table than

35:41

just Trump likes me to convince

35:43

independent voters. If you're

35:46

in a plus 24 Trump district,

35:48

that's solidly red, sure, fuck it,

35:50

why do you even need the

35:52

endorsement at that point? But

35:55

I think people need to be strategizing

35:57

a little harder. I'm

36:04

Rob Hutton and I grew up watching war movies

36:07

with my dad, but my kids just don't get

36:09

it, so I had to find someone to watch

36:11

them with me. And that's me, Duncan Weldon, and

36:13

I do get it. So I

36:15

was only too happy to join Rob

36:18

and guests such as Al Murray, Helen

36:20

Lewis and Saturn Sengara as we re-watched

36:22

the greatest war movies of all time.

36:24

So join us on War Movie Theatre

36:26

to talk about classics from Where Eagles

36:28

Dare to Zulu to the Sound of

36:30

Music. That's War Movie Theatre, wherever you

36:32

get your podcasts. In

36:40

related issues, if you can't win

36:42

electorally, there is always the option

36:44

of just pretending that elections don't

36:46

count, even though you ran

36:48

in them, so you obviously think they count enough

36:50

to bother running, but then, you know, it counts

36:54

if you win, but it doesn't count if

36:56

you lose, seems to be the thing. Election

36:58

denial hasn't ever gone away, has it? But

37:00

it seems to be ramping up even

37:02

more at the moment. What groundwork has

37:05

been laid for election denial

37:07

down the line when it comes to November?

37:10

Oh my goodness, where do we even begin?

37:14

Obviously the big lie continues to

37:16

exist, the idea that like the 2020 election

37:18

was stolen and Joe Biden is not the

37:20

legitimate president. That is still a thing.

37:22

Trump has been asked multiple times at this point

37:25

if he would accept the results of the

37:27

2024 election, and he has really

37:29

hedged on giving an outright yes. He's basically

37:31

said that, yeah, I'll accept

37:33

it if I think it was honest,

37:36

which as we know, Trump's

37:38

opinion is incredibly subjective

37:40

and oftentimes completely

37:43

opposed to reality. We

37:45

also know that a lot of his cadre,

37:49

his advisory committee,

37:51

his inner circle- His group of

37:54

mean girls. His mean girls, exactly.

37:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Possibly. Possibly.

37:59

Possibly. Grub from by the

38:01

posts a the bar. At

38:04

cancelled. So.

38:11

People like Stephen Miller. Who

38:14

was a very prominent Trump advisor

38:16

in his first administration. They have

38:18

been exploring a lot of different

38:20

legal avenues. Through. Which they

38:22

could once again race. Challenges. That a

38:25

state level escalate things to the

38:27

supreme court mess around with like

38:29

state electoral laws. I think the

38:31

thing to remember here is that.

38:35

There hasn't really been widespread accountability in

38:37

the aftermath of Twenty Twenty. We've seen.

38:40

Isolated cases like the

38:43

prosecution's. That we talked about like

38:45

Arizona and Georgia about the fake electors

38:47

scheme. We've seen you

38:49

know, people who participated in

38:52

the January Six try and

38:54

get arrested convicted, but we

38:56

haven't really seen a widespread.

38:59

Really holistic. Effort

39:02

to not only analyze like what went

39:04

wrong at each state level in terms

39:06

of like vulnerabilities that Trump and his

39:09

allies. Tried to explain, but also what are

39:11

we gonna do about like the more than

39:13

two hundred lawmakers and Congress who voted to

39:15

overturn the election? And twenty twenty, It's yeah,

39:17

there. Haven't been safeguards put in place in

39:19

the reality is that Trump and his

39:21

team. Learned. From

39:23

their mistakes, they know what went

39:25

wrong with didn't work. And Twenty

39:27

Twenty and now Barry are definitely

39:29

devoting resources to seeing. Okay, that

39:31

didn't work. What can we tried

39:33

this time? What do we do

39:35

to ensure that we win? So.

39:38

There is sort of like the

39:40

six month period right now. we're

39:42

I think not only just Congress,

39:44

but also state election offices. Have

39:47

to think like really long and hard about

39:49

what are we gonna do to ensure the

39:51

security of the election. What are we gonna

39:53

do to ensure that this is independent process?

39:56

that has the level of oversight

39:58

needed to ensure that Not

40:00

only that these claims that the baseless claims of

40:02

election fraud do not gain traction, but that our

40:05

electoral process is then able to be sabotaged

40:07

from within. And it's a massive question. There

40:09

are just like layers and layers and layers to

40:11

it. I do know from conversations

40:14

I've had with people that it

40:16

is weighing on lawmakers' minds and a

40:19

lot of people feel that not enough has been done

40:21

in the aftermath of 2020 to boost up

40:24

election security. And I think

40:26

the thing is we're still seeing visual signifiers

40:28

of that now outside of politics. For example,

40:30

I mentioned earlier, Patriots.win, that website, I went

40:32

on there and after the conviction of Trump

40:35

was announced, there were so many people saying

40:37

that they were going to go home and

40:39

put their flag upside down and

40:41

fly the flag upside down, which is

40:43

obviously a stop the steal slogan or

40:46

signifier. And you have people

40:48

like Justice Alito as well, allegedly

40:50

flying his flag upside down. But you have all

40:53

these visual signifiers, so I'd be interested to see

40:55

if that has an impact, especially on the

40:57

people who just aren't decided who they're going to

40:59

vote for, because there are a lot of people

41:01

who just don't know who they are

41:03

going to vote for or who they even want to vote for. I

41:05

think that's a big thing in this election as well. To

41:19

wrap up this section, which has basically been

41:21

let's look at all the people who have

41:23

been utterly batshit this week. So Chris,

41:27

Dr. Anthony Fauci, remember

41:29

him? He's

41:32

been facing questions from Republican lawmakers

41:34

over his role during the Covid-19

41:36

campaign. It seems to

41:39

be showing that Covid and anti-vax sentiment

41:41

and that sort of side of things

41:44

is still very much present and going to

41:46

be playing a part when it comes to

41:48

this election. So what's going on there? Yeah, well,

41:50

he, as you say, was hauled in front of

41:52

Republican lawmakers earlier this week over

41:55

basically allegations of severe mishandling of

41:57

the Covid-19 pandemic during Trump's campaign.

42:00

presidency it should be added

42:02

really yeah and Ohio

42:05

Republican Brad Winthrop know

42:08

him no neither very American

42:11

yes very he

42:13

said Americans were aggressively bullied

42:15

shamed and silenced for merely

42:17

questioning or debating issues such

42:20

as social distancing masks vaccines

42:22

or the origins of Covid

42:25

Marjorie Taylor Greene she was there as well I said I'd mention

42:27

her great here I am she

42:29

went as far to say that Fauci should

42:31

have his license revoked and that he

42:33

should be imprisoned I don't

42:36

think that's something that a lot of people even

42:38

Republicans necessarily agree with

42:40

but also to note during

42:42

these questions Trump wasn't

42:44

really brought up at all which

42:46

is interesting because of how closely

42:49

associated Fauci is with Trump especially

42:51

on his Covid record and

42:53

some have said that they're trying to make Fauci basically into

42:55

a scapegoat which essentially seems to be

42:57

the case but if you if

42:59

you look at Trump's records on on

43:02

Kevin 19 a Columbia University

43:04

report estimated that between 130,000 and 210,000

43:08

deaths were attributed to the

43:11

failures of the US government under

43:13

Trump so he really can't

43:15

hide from that record that's

43:17

gonna play a big impact into

43:19

how people will look at this election because

43:22

people won't forget that no there were you

43:24

know millions of people that have been impacted

43:26

in the US by a

43:28

death that could have been avoided

43:31

and that report shows it it's just interesting

43:33

that they've decided to go

43:35

as hard the Republican Party as hard

43:37

as they have and someone like Kennedy

43:39

is taking advantage of this basically he

43:42

had a t-shirt that says vote for

43:44

Trump slash Fauci 2024 with the slogan

43:46

that said give us

43:48

another shot so

43:50

yeah yeah pretty rough but we can already

43:52

see how this is impacting the actions you

43:54

say well suppose a weird thing for Trump

43:57

there is that he on one side of it

44:00

didn't handle the pandemic well enough. So

44:02

people on that side go, well, yeah,

44:04

this guy, I somewhat blame

44:06

him for for death in my family. But

44:08

on the other side, Operation Warp Speed and

44:10

the vaccines was actually something that he, he

44:13

bragged about. And, but

44:15

now he kind of can't revel

44:17

in that. Well, I think the

44:20

interesting thing there was that the

44:22

vaccines only really became

44:24

a force in pandemic mitigation toward the

44:26

very end of Trump's term. By

44:28

the time widespread vaccination was available

44:30

to the public, it

44:32

was under Biden. And at that point,

44:36

you had that force switch amongst

44:38

Republicans in their messaging about like,

44:40

okay, how do we make the

44:42

pandemic about Joe Biden? How do

44:44

we make the failures of the

44:46

American like healthcare systems handling of

44:48

this pandemic about the

44:50

current Democratic president? Because under Trump, if

44:53

you recall, so much of the Republican messaging

44:55

was like, oh, they're being so unfair to

44:57

Trump that Trump is like putting all this

44:59

money into developing the vaccine. Republicans didn't really

45:01

have that much of a problem with social

45:04

distancing measures early on in the

45:06

pandemic until it really became a long

45:09

term thing that extended into

45:11

Biden's presidency. Because by

45:13

that point, their entire

45:15

apparatus switches to like, okay, we now have a

45:17

Democratic president. We need to make

45:19

him look bad. So I think

45:22

there were some very interesting moments between like 2022 and 2023

45:26

where Trump tried to bring up

45:28

his record on COVID and say like, oh, my

45:30

God, the vaccines, we did so good on the

45:32

vaccines. And he does that every once in a

45:34

while. But there were

45:36

a couple instances where he mentioned it and

45:38

he got a ton of backlash. And I

45:41

think his campaign at this point is kind of like, no,

45:43

we don't really want to remind people about what

45:46

we did with the vaccines because conservatives hate them

45:48

so much. Yeah, he's basically trying to have it

45:50

both ways. He's trying to like abortion. Yeah, he's

45:52

trying to say, you know, he did everything right.

45:54

But then at the same time, he's distancing himself

45:56

from Fauci, who is facing

45:58

the wrath. from this. And

46:01

it's also really interesting because Fauci was an

46:03

advisor on the White House's

46:05

COVID response task force, but

46:07

most of the decision making about

46:10

pandemic social distancing guidelines came from

46:12

the CDC, which Fauci

46:14

is not really directly involved with outside

46:16

of an advisory role. And so the

46:18

idea that Fauci is a scapegoat I

46:20

think is incredibly accurate because he was

46:22

on this advisory task force, but

46:24

at the same time, I think his role in

46:28

the American health

46:30

system overall has been vastly

46:32

misrepresented. Yeah. Well,

46:35

there we go. Anthony Fauci, we

46:38

feel a little bit sorry for you. And that

46:40

brings us to the end of American friction. And

46:42

there's something that Chris wants to say here. Bibbidi

46:47

Bobbidi, that's the body. I

46:49

was hoping you'd say that. No, it's

46:52

in your book. You wrote it and

46:54

that's what it is. So yeah, there

46:56

we go. Well, Nikki, it's

46:59

been very good to have you here in person, mate. Thank you.

47:01

I am so excited. Guys, we're going to go eat fried bread

47:03

now. That's the way, man. And that's

47:05

what we do every day, isn't it, Joel? It is. That's

47:08

Britain for you. Yeah, Christopher. Thank you, mate.

47:10

And thanks to you, Jacob. Thank you so

47:12

much, Charlie. Yeah, that's very much. Don't worry,

47:14

guys. I'm here. Well,

47:17

we're glad you are.

47:19

And an even bigger thanks to you listeners.

47:21

We're glad you're there as well. If you

47:23

want more from us, we're out with a

47:25

new episode every Friday, early afternoon if you're

47:28

in the UK and in the morning if

47:30

you stay side. You can also follow us

47:32

on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. Our name on

47:34

each platform is at American Frick. And

47:36

if you've got something you'd like us to

47:38

answer on the podcast, send us your question

47:40

to americanfriction at podmasters.co.uk. And

47:43

we'll do our best to answer it on the podcast. You've

47:46

been listening to American Friction. See you next time. American

47:51

Friction was written and presented by Chris Gomes,

47:53

Jacob Jarvis and Nikki McCownie Mirrors. and

48:00

the executive producer was Martin Boydosh. Artwork

48:03

was by James Parrott and music was

48:05

by Orange Factory Music. American Friction is

48:08

in the Masters production.