4:00

to speak with you. For

4:02

those people who don't know you, can

4:05

you paint like a very quick

4:07

two minute summary, what's your background

4:09

and experience? Yeah. So

4:11

I come with a background of HR

4:13

in fashion across

4:15

different countries because I first started in London

4:17

and I worked for Burberry and Dior and

4:19

then I went to the Middle East, which

4:21

was awesome and I

4:24

worked for a shake that

4:26

was the owner of,

4:30

well the retail partner of

4:32

Superbrand in the Middle East,

4:34

great experience, physical weight and

4:36

then in Dubai. And

4:38

then I was brought back to Europe with

4:40

Michael Kors back in 2010 when

4:43

Michael Kors had no retail stores

4:46

and it was a tiny business of 10 million

4:49

and it was a small head office. We

4:51

didn't really even know what was about

4:55

to happen. Nobody actually had predicted

4:57

that success. And

4:59

I worked with

5:02

Michael Kors for those six years where the business

5:04

went from zero to one billion. I

5:06

started on my own and I

5:08

left a team of 50 people

5:11

across seven regional European offices. So

5:13

the growth was incredible. But

5:17

with growth and all

5:19

that success comes a lot of work, a

5:22

lot of work. Teams

5:24

were permanently

5:27

understaffed, which means that you had to do

5:29

like a million people's jobs, which means that

5:31

you had to work seven days out of

5:33

seven long

5:36

hours. And after six

5:38

weeks, that base started

5:42

to really be heavy. And

5:46

I became a mother in the meanwhile, I'm not even sure

5:48

how that happened, but I became

5:50

a mother twice and it really was

5:52

impossible to sustain that pace

5:55

and all that traveling

5:57

and all that working outwards and having a

5:59

job. need

10:00

right finance, you want to

10:02

make sure that that is covered in

10:04

order for you to

10:06

allow yourself to go way up

10:08

in the pyramid and be creative

10:11

and be researchful. But you

10:14

need to have the basics covered. So start

10:18

to walk towards that new direction from

10:22

your current chapter, the make a

10:24

move. If you

10:26

don't know what you want in

10:29

life, you start to work on

10:31

your clarity. Self-awareness, my

10:33

God. Like when you've been

10:35

running like a thousand miles per hour

10:37

for six years, worrying

10:39

about everything and about everyone, but

10:42

not you, your self-awareness is just

10:44

not there. So

10:47

six years, you know,

10:49

working, relentless working, kids,

10:53

no plan B. What happened? So,

10:56

um, so,

10:58

okay. I wouldn't say I

11:00

was starting from zero because I knew what

11:03

I did not want. So

11:05

that is a start. I

11:07

didn't know what I wanted. Um, and

11:11

I knew I didn't want to

11:13

work for somebody else at that point. So that

11:15

was already like eight years ago. Um, because

11:19

flexibility for me is and was

11:22

very important. Now, mind you, this was before

11:24

COVID. I think the world of corporate has

11:27

changed a lot from COVID. I think it

11:29

has become better. I think with

11:31

all this remote working and flexibility,

11:34

we really have made good

11:36

progress. So all the

11:38

decisions I made were based

11:40

on a reality of pre

11:43

COVID. Um, and

11:45

I started my own HR consultancy. I just wanted

11:47

to be free. I just wanted to be flexible.

11:49

I wanted to do a few projects here and

11:51

there. Of course I had a wealth of

11:54

networks through all my tons of recruitment

11:56

that I did in my course pan

11:58

European. Um, And

16:01

you need to try things and test

16:03

them and see how they fall and

16:05

how you feel and whether you feel

16:07

that alignment or not. And

16:10

if you don't, don't be afraid to

16:13

just move on. Just cancel them, just close

16:15

and just move on and try something else.

16:20

And perfection is the result

16:22

of many tests and tries

16:24

and review and reset and

16:27

improve and try again. It's

16:32

a journey, it's not a destination. Will

16:35

I be doing this this time next

16:37

year? Who knows? Maybe I have just fallen in

16:40

love with something else. Of

16:43

course, there is always a common

16:45

denominator and that is possibly my passion

16:47

for high performance, helping people

16:50

to show up as their best selves. I

16:53

love to know how our brain

16:55

works. I love neuroscience. I love

16:57

to understand how we can rewire our brain to

17:00

just design the life

17:02

that we want in whatever way we

17:04

want. I know and

17:06

the people that have my knowledge know that

17:08

you can actually achieve whatever you want in life. You

17:11

just need to

17:14

know how. You

17:16

just need to work on yourself. You just

17:18

need to understand what is stopping you from

17:20

moving forward. You just need to really know

17:23

how to rewire your brain. So

17:27

it is not a blocker. So it is not holding

17:29

you back. And I'm super

17:31

passionate about that. So whatever happens for me in

17:33

the future, there's always going to be some elements

17:35

of that. We

17:38

will come back to that in terms of how to

17:40

figure out what your strengths

17:42

are, what you value. But I just want

17:44

to backtrack a little bit in terms of

17:47

figuring out when is

17:49

the moment, when is the right moment for you

17:51

to quit. So, you

17:54

know, obviously there are moments

17:56

when you feel like something's quite off

17:58

or maybe things are really different. called

18:01

how do you make a decision between

18:03

do I need to either just you

18:05

know tolerate this or push past it

18:07

or it's like completely wrong for me.

18:09

Yeah so how I call

18:11

this is is it a deep or is it

18:13

time to quit? Yeah is

18:15

it a deep or is it

18:17

time to quit? And

18:20

listen I think we're coming from um

18:24

yes where there's all these

18:27

um quitters are for quitting is for

18:29

losers um there

18:31

is this negative stigma

18:33

around quitting um and

18:36

if you quit you're

18:40

a loser you're a failure like something

18:44

um but I think one

18:47

of the greatest treasures in

18:49

life is to have that

18:52

self-awareness that you know when

18:54

it's the end of something and

18:57

I think your superpower is when

19:00

you're just capable to let it

19:02

go kind

19:05

of surrender like

19:08

no hard feelings no I could have done

19:10

this or the other no blame no shame

19:12

um no anger

19:14

if you've done

19:17

it for so many years it was

19:19

just wonderful as you lasted if that

19:21

doesn't make you happy um just

19:23

move on now sometimes doesn't mean cancel

19:26

it all and totally push

19:29

it out of your life that sometimes it doesn't mean

19:31

you have to make a turn of 180 degrees um

19:35

what it means is that look

19:37

into that thing that is no longer

19:39

making you happy and and

19:42

figure out the changes you need to make

19:44

sometimes it's just you just need to make

19:46

some changes you don't need to change it

19:49

all um like you know my

19:51

career as a HR director the way I

19:53

knew it in

19:55

that specific way in that formula

19:57

full-time job from from from from

19:59

from nine to five, Monday to Friday,

20:02

that was canceled. But I do so

20:04

much of my old job in a

20:06

different way that is more aligned with

20:08

the way I want to live my

20:10

life. So you don't have to change

20:12

it all. You don't have from going from

20:14

HR director lab, I'll think I'm gonna just

20:16

become a photographer tomorrow. You

20:19

don't have to change it all. But

20:23

I think we have to normalize quitting.

20:28

And I think we have to reframe and

20:31

flip it and make it, associated

20:36

with something positive. And when you do

20:38

that, you feel less edgy

20:40

about it. It's the

20:42

same as failure. It's normalizing

20:44

that it's okay for things to

20:46

not work out and for it

20:49

to be not completely the end. And

20:51

I did a video called quit or grit, which

20:54

is exactly looking whether you should stay or whether

20:56

you should quit your job. And

20:59

exactly talking about how quitting

21:01

isn't a bad thing. You just need

21:03

to know what is

21:06

the reason for you quitting? Like what's the other

21:09

thing that you can gain? What's the

21:11

other, you know, what's the part of the end of

21:13

the rainbow that you are working

21:15

towards? Because I think if you're working

21:17

towards something that is

21:20

either no longer serves you or you've

21:22

realized it's not your purpose, you realize

21:24

you don't enjoy it, there's

21:27

no point in putting yourself through

21:29

pain to one day maybe liking

21:31

it. You know, your body and

21:34

your mind and you

21:36

know, that niggling feeling is telling you

21:38

something. So it's like, what is it telling

21:40

you? And learning how to

21:42

listen to it. So totally

21:44

on board with that. And shall I tell you

21:46

what? Sometimes if you are not

21:49

the one making the decision, it's

21:51

the universe or life or God or

21:54

whatever you believe in, it's gonna make it for you. Like

21:57

how many times? I

22:00

talk to people that have been sitting in

22:02

jobs and they have been hating everything about

22:04

the company and about their bosses and about

22:07

everything they've been miserable for years and years

22:09

and they haven't had the bravery on the

22:11

courage to actually pull a trigger and Then

22:14

suppress the price the following day they've

22:16

been made redundant and then they're really

22:18

angry and you're like, why are you

22:20

angry? You were hating that thing. Anyway,

22:22

you're angry because that wasn't your decision.

22:25

Mm-hmm. So Um,

22:28

it's like a way isn't a relationship. It's like you were

22:30

not happy but yeah Exactly

22:35

exactly So I guess

22:37

the anger comes from Not

22:40

being a knowner of your

22:42

life and what happens to you do you think also

22:44

with the anger is Partly

22:46

to do with the relationship you have

22:48

with the people there because anger comes

22:51

from Not being appreciated

22:53

and when you don't feel it

22:55

and then you're also, you know,

22:57

quote unquote dumped Yeah, and that

22:59

also hurts. I think

23:01

also being pushed out touches your

23:03

ego and you feel rejected

23:06

and rejection

23:08

is It's

23:11

not something people manage well

23:14

You know, I think what holds people

23:16

back is the not knowing What's

23:19

next? Yeah, so that lack of clarity

23:22

Is holding people back lack of

23:25

self-awareness and knowing what is it

23:27

that they know? That

23:30

can be of interest to the world Is

23:34

also holding that back because when you

23:36

are crystal clear about your talent and

23:38

you're crystal clear about the transformation You

23:41

give to your employer to your clients or

23:43

whatever So easy

23:45

to reposition yourself. Mmm How do you

23:47

work that out? So how do you

23:49

work out what your superpowers are? Yeah

23:52

So there are some tools that are helpful And

23:56

there is a lot of assessments out there that can

23:58

help you to bring that self away But

24:01

that's only one way. I

24:04

would go out and

24:06

talk to my network, my ex bosses,

24:08

ex colleagues, ex line managers, ex team

24:10

members, and actually I would ask them

24:13

what is it they think out of

24:15

me and what is it? I've

24:17

done it myself. I've done to ex

24:19

clients and I've got to ex and

24:21

I would send them an email and

24:23

I said, you know, if you had to.

24:25

That's scary. Yeah. Well, not

24:28

really. Not really. But it's

24:31

such a great exercise to do

24:33

because you asked 10

24:35

people and

24:37

they will say a lot of things, but

24:39

they will say like four things that

24:41

are the common denominators and that's that.

24:45

So if you say to these people,

24:47

okay, just give me 10 adjectives

24:50

that describe me out of

24:52

the experience of working together or partnering together,

24:54

whatever you know out of me, just give

24:57

me 10 adjectives to describe me. That's

25:00

so powerful. That's so

25:02

powerful. That's exactly, that's exactly what you give

25:05

when you go to people, when you go

25:07

to places. And I

25:09

tell people like when they go to interviews

25:13

and they, and you ask people, you know,

25:15

what are your strengths because you know, that's a common

25:17

question that you ask people in interviews and

25:20

they will tell you, oh, I'm really good at

25:22

people management. And

25:25

then you're

25:27

only scratching the surface. You

25:29

have to ask that person, what

25:32

is it that you do? What is it that you

25:34

have that allows you to

25:37

be a great people person? And

25:39

then that person will say, well, I'm

25:41

a great motivator. Um,

25:45

okay. So what is it that you do? What

25:48

is it that you have that

25:50

helps you to be a great motivator? And

25:53

then we'll go, well, um, I,

25:55

you know, spend a lot of time

25:57

trying to understand the passions. and

26:00

the values of the people that I connect

26:02

with. Okay, so you see a

26:05

lot of people remain in the surface.

26:08

So they don't really know what they're

26:10

strancing. You have to really peel that

26:13

onion and really scratch the surface

26:15

and go to the core to really know what

26:17

is it that you do, what you have, that

26:19

allows you to be ex white and sad. Like

26:21

I'm a great salesperson. Okay,

26:23

so what is it that you do? Show

26:26

me the evidence. Yeah, like what is it?

26:28

What is it that allows you to be

26:30

great person? Well, I'm a great connector. Okay,

26:32

so what is it that you do that

26:35

you have that allows you to connect so

26:37

beautifully with your clients or with your

26:39

people or whatever. So you see, keep

26:42

on peeling that onion to reach to

26:44

the core, which very few people do.

26:46

Yeah, it's like the CV that gets

26:48

sent to you. I was like, I'm

26:50

a great, you know, most motivated team

26:52

player and strategic dynamic thinker,

26:55

whatever the terminology

26:57

is. And you

26:59

don't really see any concrete

27:02

evidence, no real tangible achievements,

27:04

because it's the things that

27:06

you actually do, like what

27:08

you have delivered that

27:10

make your experience

27:13

relevant, interesting, and that's your

27:15

superpower. So I think saying

27:17

all these like terms is

27:19

useless because anybody can say them. You have

27:21

to show what you've actually

27:23

done. And I think this goes, you know,

27:26

kind of answering your

27:28

question for you is about digging

27:30

deeper, about having

27:33

like your own file of

27:35

evidence, like concrete things you have

27:37

done that have delivered a difference

27:40

or a change or a result,

27:42

and then look through those to

27:45

understand what your superpowers are, because

27:47

those things, the things you've actually

27:49

delivered are your kind of

27:52

golden nuggets of your experience. But

27:55

that requires a great level of

27:57

self-awareness that not many people do.

27:59

research says that if

28:02

you ask people whether they know

28:04

themselves, the most majority, everyone will

28:06

say yes. And actually research says

28:08

that only 5% of us are

28:11

truly self-aware. So if you

28:13

have a room with 10 people, nine

28:16

of them will have a poor level

28:18

of self-awareness. If you have a department

28:22

of 10 people, nine of your

28:24

team members are going around

28:26

the world talking to your clients and

28:28

talking to their teams and doing business

28:30

with a really low level of self-awareness.

28:33

Do you realize the impact in the workplace?

28:37

It's massive. Like how people do not put

28:39

their self-awareness at the very top of the

28:41

priorities they have to work on is this.

28:46

I would never understand. But you know, you

28:49

don't know how important self-awareness is until you have it.

28:52

Because of course you don't know what you don't know, right? So

28:55

of course I'm saying this now that I

28:57

have spent a

28:59

lot of time and effort and energy and money

29:01

to work on my self-awareness. And I'm just going

29:03

like my God, like, you know,

29:06

how could I just going around the

29:08

world and have all this big job with

29:10

that low, you know, low level of self-awareness.

29:13

Like you know, how do you show up? What are your blind

29:15

spots? What is it that you did to trigger you? What

29:18

is it that you need to do to be at your

29:20

best self every day in the office?

29:22

Because there's a lot of things that you could be doing.

29:26

When did you discover your strengths? It's

29:30

a process. It's not one day that

29:32

you go like, oh my God, this is what I am. This is

29:34

what I do. Are there can

29:36

be moments when you kind of have those live

29:38

old moments like, ah, you know what? Yeah.

29:42

You know, that is what I'm going out or maybe even

29:44

on the other hand, like this is it. This is the

29:46

thing that's been holding me back. Yeah.

29:49

Yeah. I think reflection

29:51

with it's not something people do a

29:53

lot of. But

29:56

if you keep on looking back and

29:59

reflect on. on your triggers,

30:02

your drainers, what

30:05

frustrates the hell out of you, you know,

30:07

what you're not being good at.

30:10

If you look back and go like,

30:12

okay, what were my best moments in

30:15

life? And what was

30:17

happening then? And who we,

30:19

and where was I? And

30:21

what was the setup? You

30:23

know, when was the happiest at this

30:26

given job? What is it that I

30:28

was doing specifically? You

30:31

get all of a sudden a lot

30:34

of information that you can actually

30:38

bring forward. I'm not going to be, because if

30:40

I, you know, I looked back at my job

30:42

as a HR director and I realized that I

30:44

was the happiest organizing

30:46

the offsides of my European team.

30:50

So I would get everyone together and I

30:52

would organize these massive events and I would

30:55

get all these guest speakers and I would

30:57

bring the business partners. And

30:59

it would be three days and we would

31:01

work on our objectives and I would, you

31:03

know, had this joy of seeing people flying

31:06

back to their countries where they would work

31:09

with a clear mindset and focused and

31:11

knowing exactly what they're meant to be

31:14

doing and super proud of belonging to

31:16

where we are. So that I

31:18

brought to my next life and

31:21

I created group coaching programs where

31:25

my team, where my clients that were coming from

31:27

different walks of life. And

31:29

I would bring still the guest speakers who

31:31

were not my business partners anymore, but would

31:34

be people from my own network of coaches.

31:36

So people that would talk about imposter syndrome

31:38

or people that would talk about, you know,

31:41

money mindset or limiting beliefs

31:43

around success or things that

31:45

really helped my clients to

31:47

unblock their full potential.

31:52

And I did it using

31:54

my intuition. And then one

31:56

day I was like, oh, I've

31:58

recreated. it, what

32:01

gave me most joy in a

32:04

different environment, in a different context.

32:07

But that was unconscious and I used my intuition.

32:09

That was the full on. But I

32:12

was able to connect the dots. And

32:16

I think you've got to really,

32:18

you know, sit back and go like, you

32:20

know, what's going on? What

32:23

is it that I'm doing? And why am I

32:25

doing it? Do you have a process for doing

32:27

that? Or is it like every Friday at four

32:29

o'clock, I sit down and I answer these kind

32:31

of questions? No, never. So I'll tell

32:33

you what, I feel you've

32:36

got the biggest reflections

32:38

and the ha ha

32:40

moments when you less

32:42

expect him. And

32:44

that is when you're having a shower, for example,

32:48

or while you're on holidays. And there

32:50

is a reason for that, which

32:54

obviously near science that I'm super passionate about.

32:57

We'll share with you. So when

32:59

you are relaxing, your

33:01

cortisol levels decrease. When

33:05

your cortisol levels decrease,

33:07

your creative mind awakes.

33:10

And that's when you

33:12

start to find answers to

33:15

the questions you didn't

33:17

find answers before, because you were

33:19

in the go, go, go, go, go mood. So

33:21

the cortisol levels are up. Your

33:23

operative mind is performing.

33:25

And in order to survive,

33:28

your creative mind is shutting

33:30

down. And

33:33

then all of a sudden, when you change the context,

33:35

and you cool down and you shut the noise, then

33:38

all of a sudden, there is this creative mind

33:40

talking to you. And

33:43

going, hmm, I didn't

33:45

notice that. There is a

33:47

study, which I need to get the

33:49

details of, which looked at

33:52

the IQ of startup founders

33:55

at the beginning of their funding journey and

33:58

at the end when the money was running.

34:00

out and the

34:02

IQ level at the beginning when you

34:04

have all the resources, you know, you've

34:06

kind of like you've won, you don't

34:09

have to worry about cash was

34:11

significantly higher than towards the end

34:13

when the money is running out.

34:15

So this idea that stress

34:17

and being under pressure actually

34:20

makes you less intelligent and

34:23

less creative. And I

34:25

found that fascinating. Yeah, how you know,

34:28

we sometimes think of, you know, being

34:30

on urgency and under stress

34:32

and under pressure, you know, you're, you know,

34:34

you're, you're really, you know, trying to, you

34:36

know, be creative and like figure out how

34:38

you're going to get out of this. But

34:41

actually, it's the opposite. Yeah. And

34:43

you know what, there's again, so much a stigma

34:45

around taking time

34:47

off or prioritizing yourself.

34:50

You know, there is this, are

34:52

you being selfish or you're being

34:55

lazy or actually resource your responsibility

34:57

to actually give your brain a

34:59

break because it allows you to

35:01

see life differently. And

35:04

you can go back to whatever

35:06

you're doing with the different perspective

35:09

that is actually beneficial to everyone.

35:12

So it's almost, you know, companies should

35:14

actually push people more. I think we've

35:16

done a lot of progress around that.

35:18

I think, you know,

35:21

people are starting to know how important

35:23

it is to actually take small breaks.

35:26

You don't have to take months, like, you

35:29

know, a long weekend every now and then

35:31

and, you know, remove yourself from that context.

35:33

Do you think leaders are really getting

35:36

on board with that and enforcing that in

35:39

companies now? I've

35:41

seen a, I've seen a change. I've

35:43

seen a change. I do, I just,

35:45

I do think that leaders know

35:47

now the importance of shutting down

35:49

the noise and going away and

35:52

change the context and having a

35:55

good rest. I think they're starting

35:57

to know when I

35:59

was working that wasn't

36:01

even a theme. Talking

36:03

about 10 years ago, eight years ago before

36:05

COVID, that wasn't even like,

36:07

you know, holidays were big, not

36:11

super nicely perceived. Oh, if you are

36:13

on holiday, you're still reachable and

36:16

that you need to still be

36:18

on call or answer emails or,

36:20

you know, deal with certain crisis

36:22

situation. I think there is more

36:25

respect for work-life balance today. And

36:28

there is a lot of employers that are being

36:30

innovative about it. And those employers

36:32

are the employers that are getting the

36:34

best talent because, you know, people more

36:36

and more really will not compromise their

36:38

lives or even their own well-being. Why

36:40

do you think that is? Why

36:42

do you think there is this

36:44

change? I think COVID has changed society

36:47

and COVID has changed the way we

36:50

perceive the world. I

36:52

think we felt so vulnerable all

36:55

of a sudden. We never even thought for

36:57

a second that could even happen

36:59

ever. You know,

37:01

we're so smart. We have created so much.

37:05

We're so technical, so digital, so everything.

37:07

Here comes something totally out of the

37:09

blue and has us shut

37:11

down. Businesses, like, you

37:14

know, people had to just stay at

37:16

home. A

37:18

lot of businesses were not even equipped

37:20

technically to actually allow their employees to

37:23

remain connected. You know,

37:25

I remember I was, you know, I was consulting

37:28

for some businesses and we had our

37:30

IT guy running around the city, going

37:32

to the employees' houses, helping

37:35

them to connect. It was,

37:37

you know, teams, or Zoom wasn't even a

37:39

thing. So,

37:44

yeah, never underestimate the impact. I mean, we

37:46

hardly remember anymore. It's, you know, it's 2024.

37:48

That happened in 2020. It's

37:51

four years ago. We didn't even

37:53

talk about that anymore. But

37:56

it has changed our life forever, and

37:59

it has changed the workplace forever. and

38:01

he has changed HR forever and he

38:03

has changed talent forever. What

38:07

do we want and what is acceptable or

38:09

not acceptable from our employer? From

38:11

COVID days talking to HR directors,

38:15

so many are burned

38:17

out, exhausted, tired,

38:21

replaced. What are your thoughts

38:23

on that? I think that

38:25

the HR function has had a

38:27

before and after COVID. I

38:30

think before COVID the HR

38:32

function wasn't strategic, wasn't even perceived

38:34

as such in many countries

38:37

in Europe. It

38:40

wasn't really a business partner. And

38:45

during COVID I think a lot of business

38:47

realized how crucial the

38:50

HR departments had been in

38:52

order to ensure that everything

38:55

was moving. And the people

38:57

were there and the people

38:59

were engaged even if we were at home

39:03

working on top of each other.

39:05

Our children were on distance learning,

39:07

you were a teacher and you

39:10

still had to work. And

39:13

so, you know, the

39:16

people function. People became

39:18

such a... It

39:21

was really for once at the core of everything.

39:26

But now we are post COVID and

39:30

there is a lot of resettlement. There's

39:33

a lot of businesses going best. There's a lot

39:35

of businesses struggling financially.

39:39

There is a lot of resented

39:41

since the layoffs. Like that seems

39:44

to be the common theme that

39:46

I've been talking. I've been in London

39:48

for 48 hours. I've been catching up with

39:50

my network. That's the only thing they talk about. There

39:55

is a very slim

39:57

power levels, which means that...

40:00

that people are doing

40:02

two people's jobs. So again, we're going

40:04

back to having to work crazy hours.

40:08

So we're going like, haven't we

40:10

learned anything? History repeats

40:12

itself. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

40:16

What is that about? People stressed,

40:19

you know, not thinking clearly, reverting

40:21

back to their old kind

40:23

of habits that they know that don't work

40:26

and just, what is that? Well,

40:29

I think people lack of self-awareness. So

40:32

they do not realize or they do

40:34

not notice

40:37

when they are under pressure, they are under stress

40:39

and the new person they become when your world

40:41

around you is shaking. Teachers don't

40:43

see the signs. So

40:46

again, it's that self-awareness piece that comes back

40:50

to our conversation. And I

40:52

will never get tired of saying it. Going

40:55

back to the idea of, you know,

40:57

working a lot, having kids,

40:59

you know, women deciding that, you

41:02

know what? It's just not

41:04

possible to stay and

41:06

control my time. Are you still seeing

41:08

that? I

41:11

think the world of corporate and the

41:14

workplace has changed after COVID. I

41:16

also know there is a lot of companies that are

41:19

getting everybody back to the office, five

41:21

days out of five, but not all of

41:23

them. I think we are in a 50-50. There's

41:25

a lot of companies that are going back to

41:28

that regime. But

41:30

what happens is that they realize that

41:32

a lot of the talent will actually

41:34

choose the companies that allow people to

41:36

work from home. I

41:40

do think that it's easier today for

41:42

a woman, a working woman with a

41:45

family to actually stay in corporate because

41:47

I do think businesses are more flexible

41:50

with, even if you allow remote working one

41:52

day a week, that changes

41:54

your life. I

41:57

did ask one day a week when I was before COVID. And

42:00

they looked at me as if I had

42:02

to set a swear word. It was like,

42:04

what are you on about? Unthinkable. Unthinkable. Yeah.

42:07

And now everyone more or less

42:10

gives one day. I

42:12

think that the question is, how

42:14

much more days over than why you're gonna give me?

42:17

But the one day everybody more like gets.

42:20

And that is changing people's lives because you

42:22

know, that's less hour of commuting

42:24

that you're doing a week. That's one day a

42:26

week that you're able to go and drop your

42:28

kids to school and pick them up. That

42:31

changes people's lives. But

42:36

you know, I think it's all

42:38

a process. And

42:42

whatever woman that chose to become self-employed

42:44

at whatever time in order to be

42:46

more present for their families and have

42:49

more flexibility, the world has changed now.

42:51

She has changed. She's become a different

42:53

woman over the years. The kids have

42:55

changed now. The level of flexibility she

42:57

will need is totally different. Does

43:00

this mean that she needs to remain self-employed? Maybe

43:03

she wants to go back to corporate. And

43:07

that is not easy. I

43:09

think we have normalized people

43:12

being self-employed and

43:14

being freelancers and being consultants and

43:16

being solopreneurs. 50%

43:18

of the workforce actually is that. I

43:21

think we have a normalized people switching

43:24

from one to another.

43:27

So what's holding back companies from green

43:29

people? I think companies, I think people

43:31

are being penalized when they've been out

43:33

of corporate for certain amount of years.

43:36

How long is too long? How long

43:38

is too long? How

43:40

long is too long? Like if you're like

43:42

a year, five years, like where's the cutoff

43:44

point? How

43:46

long is too long? It depends on the

43:48

person that makes a decision. But

43:51

what you were seeing? But

43:53

people should take a year off

43:56

to go traveling. That might take some

43:58

time off for parents. duties, whether it's

44:00

to look after an elderly or whether

44:02

it's to look after children. People

44:04

might take some time out

44:06

as a freelancer consultant because at that given

44:08

time she needs or he needs a different

44:10

life. I was

44:13

saying that these people that are not in

44:15

corporate are not learning anything whilst they are

44:17

out of it and therefore

44:19

going back means

44:21

that you haven't grown

44:24

enough. Actually I think it's the opposite.

44:26

I think you learn a hell of

44:28

a lot of things that you will

44:30

never learn in corporate. You learn the

44:32

resilience, you learn to be self-led, you

44:34

learn to focus on your personal branding

44:36

and the things that you need to

44:38

do in order to enhance your personal

44:40

branding. You learn how to sell like

44:43

HR people that are becoming self-employed or

44:45

they're becoming coaches, they never learn how

44:47

to sell in their career in HR

44:50

because they don't have to. So

44:52

what's holding companies back from

44:54

hiring you know people into

44:57

from freelancing into a corporate? There

45:00

is this wrong assumption that if you

45:03

haven't been in corporate forever

45:06

and permanently then you're not good enough. You're

45:09

not good enough. Yeah the time

45:11

that you have been out it's a gap

45:13

in your CV. Hmm have

45:16

we normalized seeing gaps in people's TVs? Hmm

45:18

no. Because I see a lot of

45:20

people HR still looking

45:24

at the years and the days and asking people

45:26

there's a gap here what happened? Do

45:29

you think it's because freelancers could be seen

45:31

as high maintenance

45:34

that they just won't stand in your bullshit? Is

45:37

that bad? No but

45:41

could be a way of thinking

45:43

that it's going to be harder

45:46

to culturally ingrain that

45:48

person back into the corporate culture? I

45:51

think we just have to go back to

45:53

the basics and define what that's good

45:56

talent looks like for you. talent

46:00

the one that is just never going

46:02

to challenge the status quo. It's good

46:04

talent the one that is saying yes

46:06

to everything. It's good talent

46:08

the one that has leaky boundaries. So

46:10

if a freelance is not being allowed

46:12

back into corporate because it has boundaries

46:14

and because it does challenge the status

46:16

quo, is

46:19

that poor talent? I

46:23

think you've

46:26

got to be a

46:28

solopreneur inside of organization.

46:31

Like everything you've learned out of it, you

46:33

have to bring it back because in my

46:36

opinion, it's

46:38

immense value. They look for opportunities

46:41

when there are difficulties.

46:44

They look for

46:46

opportunities full stop. Engaging,

46:50

connecting with

46:52

clients, team. Sometimes

46:55

you will sit in corporate for so long, you

46:57

just forget how important all that is. I

47:00

wonder how much the interviewing process

47:03

plays a part in this

47:05

as well because you are,

47:07

if you're not trained enough

47:09

to look for those qualities and skills

47:12

beyond what's the most obvious thing on

47:14

a CV, you're just going

47:16

to be reverting to, you know,

47:18

stereotypes and just be like, well,

47:20

if they have been at this company, which is

47:23

similar to ours, then they're going to be a

47:25

good fit. And if they have done

47:27

this type of a job and they're going into

47:29

this job here, then yes, it's almost like using

47:31

these shortcuts. Musical

47:33

chairs, I call it like people

47:35

moving. Oh my God.

47:37

Musical chairs. So boring. The world of

47:40

fashion is full of it. How

47:42

many CEOs we have seen going from back

47:45

to brand. I was just having a conversation

47:47

just the other day going like the

47:49

CEO of X brand that is being moved

47:52

to this other brand. What's

47:54

the guarantee that that CEO is

47:56

going to turn around and something

47:59

amazing? Like

48:01

why are we not being innovative in

48:03

the way we make senior appointments? Again,

48:07

can we just please define what good talent

48:09

looks like? And you need to define what

48:12

good talent looks like for us,

48:14

which is going to be different of what

48:16

good talent looks like

48:18

for that competitor brand. But

48:20

you really need to sit with your team and say, okay,

48:23

what does good talent look like? Let's

48:25

define talent for us. What

48:27

is this talent doing? How

48:30

is this talent behaving? Where

48:33

is this talent hanging out? Where is,

48:35

how is the talent living? Like let's

48:38

define truly the profile of

48:40

this person. Beyond

48:44

has worked in XXX Brands. There's

48:48

musical chairs since ever. We

48:51

haven't changed that. That hasn't

48:53

changed. And we wonder

48:55

why fashion brands are in trouble this

48:57

day. There is the same talent moving

48:59

around, delivering the

49:02

same results. Same, same. Yeah. Are

49:04

you disillusioned with the fashion industry? From

49:07

a talent perspective, yes. Big

49:10

time. Leadership

49:13

is not always inspiring.

49:20

It's still very male dominated. You

49:22

want to count how many brands have a female CEO.

49:26

And we would probably have like, like

49:29

with one hand, which is. And

49:34

you want to, there

49:36

is a lack of diversity all around, not

49:38

in terms of gender and

49:40

in terms of race, but in terms

49:42

of the skill sets and the functions,

49:44

people that take the top positions come

49:46

from. Why is that? And.

49:53

And you know what, they have no evidence

49:55

that is working because clearly listen, there is

49:58

a lot going on in the fashion industry.

50:00

right now and it's not all

50:03

roses. So,

50:06

you know, we say, well, um, if

50:09

you want different results, you're going to have

50:11

to try different things because to do

50:13

the same, same, same and

50:15

expect differently, that's insanity. The

50:18

famous quote. Exactly. But it's

50:20

so true. Um,

50:24

you know, there is only one brand in the,

50:26

in luxury fashion that has really

50:29

done something, um, totally different and

50:31

has appointed a CEO. There

50:34

is female of a ethnic minority

50:36

that comes from a, with

50:39

a chief HR officer for

50:41

consumer mega brand. So no

50:43

luxury, no leather experience, no

50:46

product experience, no, no fashion

50:48

experience, no, no, no

50:50

product, no finance, no anything. Why?

50:53

Because she came with the leadership because she

50:55

knows under her, there is all these teams

50:57

of specialists that actually can deliver and can

50:59

fill the gaps. So she doesn't know, but

51:02

in order to do that, you're going to

51:04

need to stop micromanaging and, and allow people

51:06

to actually do what they were brought to do.

51:08

You talk about Lena Nair. You

51:11

talk about Lena Nair. Yeah. I'm

51:13

talking about Tanelle has, who is the only

51:15

brand that has done such an appointment in

51:17

the history of fashion. Yeah. Yeah. What

51:21

do you hope to

51:23

see with having more women at

51:25

the top? Empathy.

51:33

Um, I don't, I wouldn't just say

51:35

the woman, I just don't think women

51:37

are best than men or men are best

51:39

than women. I

51:41

just think that you need a beautiful

51:43

mix. Um,

51:46

yeah, because

51:49

one does well, the other one, not necessarily.

51:51

So I think you need a combination of

51:53

both. In order to have perfection. But

52:01

in the fashion industry, in

52:04

the luxury industry, it's heavy

52:06

male dominated. Yeah,

52:08

all the CEOs I can think about are

52:10

male and their line reports

52:12

are mostly male. What

52:15

is it going to take to have more women at the top? You

52:21

need to change the system. You

52:25

need to change the system in which we live

52:27

in, because I think women still

52:29

are the main carers for

52:32

their families. And if

52:35

there is flexibility

52:37

and work-life balance, then

52:40

regrettably still today, these women have to

52:42

make a decision. Whether

52:44

they prioritize their career or whether they

52:46

prioritize their family life. I

52:49

don't think any woman should make that decision. Men

52:55

are not being asked to make that decision. Why

52:58

should we? I think it

53:01

should be a partnership in any household, it

53:03

should be a partnership in any company. And

53:05

women need to be allowed to grow

53:09

their careers, if so they want,

53:13

with peace and serenity. Without

53:17

a struggle, without

53:19

a... Sometimes it just feels

53:21

impossible. And sometimes

53:23

it is impossible. Given

53:26

the current structures, yes. And

53:29

given the current system, I mean, I don't know

53:31

in the UK, just the other day in Italy,

53:33

there was an employee going back from Materna to leave,

53:36

who cannot come back full time. Even

53:40

if she would want to come back full time, but she

53:42

cannot. Because the

53:44

place where she leaves, there

53:46

isn't any places in nursery

53:48

where she can leave the

53:50

baby. There are not no

53:52

places. And

53:55

luckily she can come back part-time

53:57

because she has both grandmas. paternal

54:00

and maternal, young and healthy

54:03

and ready to step in. She said, if

54:05

my mother or his mother wasn't there, I

54:07

wouldn't be able to come back at all.

54:10

Why? Because there's a system that is not helping

54:12

women to

54:14

actually go back to the workplace. Like

54:17

in Italy, people, kids finish school

54:20

at one o'clock in

54:22

Tuttuluna as well. One

54:24

day a week, Wednesdays, they even finish at eleven

54:26

o'clock. Like who if

54:29

you're working, like and

54:32

you have to be at home for

54:34

lunchtime or eleven o'clock on Wednesdays, how

54:36

are you going to do it? It's

54:39

a system that is not working. It's

54:42

the thoughts as well. It's the

54:44

expectation that it's the woman's job

54:47

to take care of the kids. Because

54:49

if that wasn't really

54:52

the undercurrent of

54:54

the thinking, then it just

54:56

will be simple. You would create

54:58

structures to support that. But I

55:01

do still find that this idea that

55:03

it's a woman's job to raise the

55:06

kids solely her responsibility

55:09

without having the support of

55:11

her partner, who's expected to

55:13

go out and do the

55:15

full time job and provide. Yeah. That

55:20

dynamic permeates

55:22

the working environment, making

55:25

it impossible for women to achieve that because

55:27

you either say, well, I can have both.

55:29

So then you're doing two jobs at the

55:31

same time or you're

55:33

having to choose. And

55:35

that's an impossible choice. Like who would choose not to

55:38

be a parent or

55:40

mother to their kids? But

55:43

you can choose not to spend as much time with them,

55:45

but who would choose voluntarily to not

55:48

be a parent? Yeah.

55:52

Even men, though, even men.

55:54

Still, you know, like can we have a

55:56

school that open until five o'clock every day?

56:00

Like, you know, what else is

56:02

just impossible? Like,

56:04

can we even have schools that offer

56:07

after-schooling homework support for all those parents

56:09

that are coming back from work late

56:12

because they're either traveling or they're either

56:14

commuting? Because you know what, if you

56:16

have to rush back home at five

56:18

o'clock and then do two hours

56:21

or three hours of homework with your children, you're

56:23

not even spending quality time with them. Yeah.

56:27

Like, can just

56:29

kids go back to school ready to

56:32

enjoy their evenings with their

56:34

parents without having to, you

56:36

know, that stress or that exam or that?

56:40

So I think the system doesn't work.

56:42

The system doesn't work and doesn't not

56:45

only doesn't help mothers, I don't think

56:47

that it doesn't even have the fathers.

56:49

I think they do not. The system

56:51

doesn't help parenthood full stop. It

56:53

doesn't. And I think as a result of

56:55

women entering the workforce and having to deal

56:58

with these issues now, there's a

57:00

lot of disgruntled women thinking this is

57:02

not working. Whereas for men

57:04

who haven't had to deal with it,

57:07

they are completely unaware of the situation.

57:09

I mean, I'm speaking for not speaking

57:11

for everyone. Because in my home, we're

57:13

both fully aware how difficult it is

57:15

to work and to take care of

57:18

kids at the same time. But

57:20

for a lot of the time, like men didn't

57:22

have to think about that. And so

57:25

it's now the women coming saying, look, it's not

57:27

working. We need to fix it because we can't

57:29

do we can't do it all. Yeah.

57:33

Nor should we have to. Yeah.

57:36

And it's holding women back. And I think this

57:39

is exactly the problem. It's like

57:41

this Catch-22 where if there

57:44

were more women in senior leadership positions,

57:46

this would have been fixed a long time ago. Exactly.

57:49

So you need to have the

57:52

different perspectives to be able

57:54

to see even the problems that can't be

57:56

seen by whatever the status quo is. And

57:59

that is the. case for diversity

58:01

and of thought of race, of

58:03

gender, of ideas, of culture.

58:06

We need that to be able to see that

58:09

to make it work. Yeah.

58:12

But at the same time, people,

58:14

female woman cannot get to leadership

58:16

positions unless the system changes. So

58:18

it's always a catch-22. Yeah.

58:22

So I think about this all the time is

58:24

like, what, what needs to change? Because I had

58:26

this question the other day, it's like, Oh, what

58:28

do women need to do? And

58:31

I'm like, women, we've done

58:34

so many things already. I don't know what

58:36

more you can do to make

58:38

that situation better apart from just becoming

58:41

more angry and more like, Frustrated. More

58:43

and more frustrated and like demanding or

58:45

like saying, I'm not going to be

58:47

having any kids or I'm not going

58:50

to be in a relationship at all

58:52

until this is fixed because this is

58:54

no longer working. It's not working, but

58:57

it's not working. We're not there yet,

58:59

but we are in a way better

59:01

place than we were 10 years ago.

59:05

Like we've made like massive

59:08

steps forward. It's not

59:10

ideal. There is a long road to still ahead

59:12

of us. But I

59:14

think our daughters

59:16

will certainly find a better place

59:19

for them to actually manage

59:21

their careers and grow them if

59:23

so, they want to. I

59:27

hope so. And I mean, I do. I mean,

59:29

I get very passionate about this topic, but I

59:31

do see a difference, even in my own career

59:33

and what you're saying how in the

59:36

corporate world, that

59:39

it's become easier to be a

59:41

woman in business than it has been

59:43

in the past. So there's definitely signs

59:45

of that happening. There's still steps to

59:47

be made, but

59:50

it's, it's an improvement. It's just very,

59:52

very slow. Yeah. Hmm. Look

59:56

at what it says though. Is it really?

59:58

I think so. Like imagine. Like

1:00:00

all the changes we have made in such a short

1:00:02

period of time. Like listen,

1:00:06

when I was in corporate and that wasn't like young

1:00:08

the girl, I'm not that old. You

1:00:12

couldn't work one day from home, you

1:00:14

just couldn't. And I actually asked not

1:00:16

even one day, I asked to be

1:00:18

working from home only one afternoon. And

1:00:22

that was like incredible.

1:00:25

Like what are you talking about?

1:00:27

In what parallel wall are you

1:00:29

living? And

1:00:31

today some of my ex-team

1:00:34

members that are female are

1:00:36

working from home three days a week. So

1:00:38

I've seen with my peers,

1:00:41

not even the generations below,

1:00:44

like it's happening very

1:00:46

quickly actually. I think

1:00:48

that's what Covid has shown is that if

1:00:51

you, if push comes to shove, you can

1:00:53

make changes very quickly. Yeah. Given

1:00:55

the right conditions,

1:00:59

you can change overnight if

1:01:01

you want to. So there's a

1:01:04

lot of changes that can be made very,

1:01:06

very fast, but they're not being

1:01:08

made because there isn't really

1:01:10

that. There's a priority for many people. That's

1:01:13

how change happens. It's like

1:01:16

it can take forever until one day

1:01:18

you just like can't take this anymore.

1:01:20

And then you're a different person. It's

1:01:23

managing both. It's like when you're

1:01:25

talking about figuring yourself out, it's

1:01:27

a journey. It takes time. But

1:01:30

I feel like it's not a consistent,

1:01:34

like upwards curve. You,

1:01:38

it does take time gradually, but

1:01:40

you can make a massive change

1:01:43

in certain points in your life that completely

1:01:45

take you in a different direction. Yeah. And

1:01:48

I think that's what's amazing about our

1:01:50

ability to make that change that

1:01:53

you can have an experience

1:01:55

or speak to a coach or,

1:01:58

you know, as you said, something happened,

1:02:00

even a redundant. redundancy can completely flip

1:02:02

your way of thinking on the world

1:02:05

and and change your life for the

1:02:07

better. Yeah, I

1:02:09

always advise to people connect with

1:02:11

people that are on the same

1:02:13

journey, but ahead of you. Why?

1:02:18

Because they are on the same journey,

1:02:20

but ahead. Two, because they

1:02:22

are the living proof that there is light at

1:02:24

the end of the tunnel and when

1:02:28

you shift your mindset from this

1:02:31

is impossible. I'm not gonna make it

1:02:33

to well, this is

1:02:35

possible because she has made it and if she has

1:02:37

made it so can I? When

1:02:40

that's that shift then

1:02:42

magic happens because you present yourself

1:02:44

to the world differently. You

1:02:47

make you behave differently. You

1:02:50

act differently and that's

1:02:52

when magic starts to happen. When

1:02:55

you sit in that place of this

1:02:57

impossible. You're

1:03:00

sitting in a place of luck, not

1:03:03

abundance. You're sitting in a place of not

1:03:07

even trying because you know it's impossible. I

1:03:10

always tell people go out there and talk to

1:03:12

people who are on the same journey, but ahead

1:03:14

of you, a few years ahead of you. First

1:03:17

of all, you can learn a lot from

1:03:19

what they've done for has worked, doesn't work.

1:03:21

That doesn't mean that it's the same for you, but

1:03:23

you know what has worked and hasn't worked

1:03:25

for somebody else. You can just you know,

1:03:27

you can take that as a good information. But

1:03:33

then you know, they either leave improve off

1:03:35

the whatever you want is actually possible. Which

1:03:38

is why they say you are

1:03:40

the result of the five people you

1:03:42

most spend your time with. So

1:03:48

surround yourself with people that are on your same

1:03:50

journey, but ahead of you because

1:03:52

they're just gonna pull you up. Their

1:03:57

behaviors, their beliefs. around

1:04:01

what is possible, what is not possible. All

1:04:06

the opportunity you will be able to see,

1:04:11

yeah, if you don't, so be selective.

1:04:15

Well, that's why this podcast is so important for

1:04:17

me because it is

1:04:19

showcasing stories of it's possible.

1:04:22

You can be that, you

1:04:25

can learn something and

1:04:27

just having role models of

1:04:30

both genders, I know obviously, I talk a

1:04:32

lot about women's issues, but I don't interview

1:04:34

just women on the show. And

1:04:36

it's so important to be able to see

1:04:39

all kinds of leaders and the

1:04:42

stories about the challenges they

1:04:44

faced and how they've overcome that. And they

1:04:47

still made it,

1:04:49

so to speak. Success is so personal to

1:04:51

everyone, but just to have those role models

1:04:53

that you can be it too. That's

1:04:56

why it's so important. Sometimes

1:04:58

there is like, you know, we're

1:05:00

having all these coffees, all these networking.

1:05:05

The level of magic

1:05:08

and learnings and wisdom that

1:05:11

are taking place when two people

1:05:13

actually connect and they exchange experience.

1:05:17

It's like, yeah, why didn't we share it with the world? Mm-hmm.

1:05:21

I think that's what digital has allowed

1:05:23

us to actually take those

1:05:25

moments of wisdom that will happen on

1:05:27

a one-to-one level, on a small cafe,

1:05:30

to actually share it with the world. Because

1:05:34

it's that, you know. Social

1:05:37

media can be a little bit, you know, people

1:05:39

only like to share their successes most of the

1:05:41

time. But

1:05:43

what really, really gets

1:05:46

people engaged is

1:05:48

to actually share your failures and

1:05:51

know that you have been in a dark place too. And

1:05:56

yes, it's not easy. And

1:05:58

there are hurdles all around. I

1:06:01

call it people love a Britney Spears moment

1:06:04

because people love to know when you have

1:06:06

fallen and then stand back up. Yeah.

1:06:10

Yeah, become stronger. People

1:06:13

want to know more of that. It's

1:06:15

impossible for everyone to be happy

1:06:17

all the time or to experience

1:06:21

success constantly because you know, you see

1:06:23

that Instagram feed and you think everybody's

1:06:25

just doing so much better than you.

1:06:28

Yeah. It's just not reality. You

1:06:30

don't see the hardship,

1:06:32

the smudged makeup because

1:06:35

you've been crying or no makeup

1:06:37

at all because you've just like

1:06:39

not had the energy

1:06:41

to do that or to get yourself up

1:06:43

and to continue on your journey. You

1:06:46

know, life is, life can't, I

1:06:49

don't want to say life is hard because some

1:06:51

of the guests on this podcast have taught me

1:06:54

that actually, you know, life doesn't have to be

1:06:56

hard. But there are moments

1:06:58

which can throw you off track

1:07:01

or when you're feeling low and that's just

1:07:03

part of life. Yeah. I

1:07:05

will also tell you choose who you follow in

1:07:08

Instagram. You have that responsibility and you

1:07:10

have that power. So you

1:07:13

might just want to follow and look at

1:07:15

the content of people that just share all

1:07:17

the successes all the time or really the

1:07:19

more genuine people that actually just tell it

1:07:21

how it is. So yes,

1:07:25

there is a lot of everything in life. You

1:07:27

have the power to decide and you have the

1:07:29

power to choose. So

1:07:32

choose wisely. Well, this is

1:07:34

what you're saying about self-awareness. What's important to you

1:07:37

and being intentional with what you

1:07:39

feed yourself and the

1:07:41

examples that you seek out and the

1:07:43

people you surround yourself with and who

1:07:45

you reach out to. So. Absolutely. Well,

1:07:48

Berta, how can people find you? I'm

1:07:51

very active on LinkedIn. That's

1:07:53

my platform really. That's

1:07:56

where I feel again, self-awareness is key. When

1:07:59

I started my journey, I was doing everything. Me

1:08:02

not being a social media person, me

1:08:04

not even very digital

1:08:07

and then just tuning in with what

1:08:09

you like and what you don't like

1:08:11

and actually choose your right platform which

1:08:13

one is LinkedIn. So you will find

1:08:15

me in LinkedIn anytime, any day. I

1:08:17

spend a lot of time in

1:08:20

LinkedIn, of my day in LinkedIn. So yeah if you send

1:08:22

me a comment, I'll be there.