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Hello, everyone. Welcome to And That's
1:55
Why We Drink, a
1:57
paranormal true crime podcast. I'm Christine
2:02
I am having a good hair day, but I'm
2:04
having a bad chin day because I Got
2:07
me a little how does one have a bad? Oh A
2:09
blemish I see you know where I had a blemish the other day.
2:11
I had a gigantic zit inside
2:13
my ear. Oh I've
2:16
had him Raw yeah,
2:18
I almost went back and told the doctor that I
2:20
had pierced my eardrum again, and he was Blaze
2:24
was like that's a pimple Have
2:26
you ever this is anyway? Have you ever? Gotten
2:31
is it in your ear, and you
2:33
heard it and fucking surround sound pop
2:36
Yeah, oh yeah, that's crazy. I'm
2:38
always amazed. Yeah, even if it's gross. I'm
2:40
like that's just it's kind of shocking I
2:43
knew I couldn't tell my mom because she'd try to
2:45
get her little Grovel fingers in there, and I was
2:47
like don't touch me I would also I
2:49
if you ever need a sit on the road. I
2:51
will absolutely get it for him for you Oh my
2:54
god, my life away thinking about it We're
2:57
so sick. Hello everyone Today
3:00
to talk to you and about
3:02
all the reasons that we drink right em
3:05
That's true. You are giving vibes
3:07
like you want to drink a lot for some reason do you
3:10
have I do? No,
3:12
not really. I just I think it's just Monday
3:14
And you know you think like once you have
3:16
a job where it's like your own job that
3:19
Mondays aren't like a thing like Mondays But
3:22
I don't know I think I think there's
3:25
just a collective societal Monday energy. That's seeping
3:27
into my brain. You know But
3:31
I hope it sounds like you're doing okay. I mean I hopped
3:33
on and you were like Complementing me
3:35
left and right and I was I was
3:37
just taken aback I think my
3:39
therapist would say I was maybe fishing
3:42
for somebody to give me a compliment back. Oh
3:45
Well, I already know you're fishing in the wrong spot.
3:47
No. I'm kidding There
3:50
I I cannot see your hair because your cameras a little
3:52
blurry, but when you said you were having good hair day
3:55
I was like oh god. I got to take a look
3:57
at em kiro Right
4:00
on my hair. Looks you. Can
4:03
layers She's like she's got. She's
4:05
hurls perfectly, plays the she's like
4:07
she's messy find like I look
4:10
like may. Be I've a bad boy but
4:12
but you don't like it is that I actually am
4:14
a good boy. Yeah.
4:17
Is. Oh to
4:19
the good parts I can't determine your you know
4:21
the up the rest. But the good part. More.
4:24
I feel like it's like a someone saw me in a
4:27
coffee. Shop the to my hand go. They. Look
4:29
like they know how to have a little fun. You.
4:31
Know a yeah okay. Yeah.
4:33
You do not a kick that is for
4:36
sure if there's one thing I know about
4:38
you that your hair doesn't agree. I am
4:40
loving the puzzled look that looks intentional that.
4:42
Not. Intentional. You know it's like is it her
4:45
looks good to the you take care of it
4:47
but not like because you obsess over like did
4:49
I take a nap or did. I use
4:51
products will. Never know it's like or
4:53
or was she born with it. Maybe
4:55
it's maybelline. You know that I could.
4:57
The lady current thirty of the above
4:59
saying to Gaillard that I was so
5:01
incredibly I'm very I'm a affection starved
5:04
these. Days. Because a House and Desist nowhere
5:06
to be found, she's still coconut with the
5:08
products or something and the Amazon. so. Was.
5:12
Ah, I've noticed my
5:14
compliments others has heightens. probably because
5:16
I'm I'm desperate to. Feel some
5:18
yeah I don't know your your terms
5:20
of endearment some toward me have increased.
5:22
I've also noticed your high pitched squealing
5:25
has increased when I'm around on. I
5:27
did say that when did I become
5:29
the replacement for or the stand in
5:31
for else and M M's and responded
5:33
well I think I'll send them a
5:35
replacement or the sand and for you
5:37
And I was like oh my god
5:39
that's so deep. And. I mean
5:41
if I've I've known you longer so
5:44
I guess side. By. Timeline standards.
5:46
She is the stand and. And.
5:49
I will never let anybody forget it. I
5:53
have a question: why do you drink this week
5:55
my friends. Both. Ah,
5:58
and friends or. Stop! I'm
6:01
trying so hard. I
6:03
know it's not natural for you. I understand.
6:06
No, it is. I just, it's not
6:08
natural on a Monday. Yeah,
6:10
yeah, yeah. Well, to
6:13
be fair, usually I think I have
6:16
a case of the Mondays as badly as you, but
6:18
I, for
6:21
some reason this weekend, I did
6:23
a lot of, like,
6:25
work. I feel like I never actually had a
6:27
weekend, so that's in its own way
6:29
a bad thing, but that also means that today doesn't feel
6:32
like Monday. It feels like a Friday or something, so. Got
6:34
it. You're like, oh, got all this work behind
6:36
me. Like, I'm already like, it's rock and roll.
6:39
It's hump day, essentially, for me. I'm like, we've
6:41
already been doing this, so I'm in the, kind
6:43
of in the zone, but good for
6:46
you. One of the reasons I, I
6:51
just feel very overwhelmed at
6:54
this damn cruise, which I saw
6:56
coming from a mile away, because
6:59
anyone who has ever had to travel
7:02
with their adult parents
7:05
knows how it is. I,
7:07
it's, I feel like, okay,
7:10
so I
7:12
think this cruise only happened because I have
7:15
reminisced so many times with my mom about how
7:17
much I missed, like, I was, like,
7:19
a cruise kid. I, I know what
7:22
that means these days. It's, like, not very friendly
7:24
at all to the environment, but
7:27
I remember it does have, like, some sort
7:29
of nostalgia factor for me of, like, all
7:32
the vacations we took and all the places we got to see
7:34
because of it, and so I would think I was just reminiscing
7:36
with my mom a little too close to the sun, and
7:38
she went, oh, well, we're going to do it again, and
7:40
now I'm realizing in the thick of it that a cruise
7:43
with her when I was a child and she
7:45
was in charge of everything
7:48
and I wasn't really expected
7:50
to do anything is
7:52
a lot different than me as an adult
7:54
having to deal with all of her, like,
7:56
panicked, overcomplicated texts about how things might be.
7:59
Wait, so, like, what The complex part like
8:01
is it like planning activities as
8:03
it like payment schedule that. What's
8:05
the balance? Like overwhelming. My.
8:07
Mom I will say she has done
8:09
a lot of. Things.
8:12
He's done a lot of the planning on her
8:14
own behind closed doors. I really can't complain too
8:16
much, but the parts that have seeped into my
8:18
tax conversations with her. Are just like
8:21
I can't get a damn straight answer Add a her.
8:23
I mean it's the same thing about like if I
8:25
were playing like go to the park with her the
8:27
same things like an example as. It's
8:30
just like but by ten So I
8:32
texted heard I said do you fly
8:35
back the same day. We get off the ship.
8:37
I was trying to figure out my own plans. I only
8:39
ask that one question. Do. You fly back
8:41
the same day we get off the ship. She.
8:43
Say. A. Wall Of Sound. Like
8:45
by the way, this could have been. This
8:48
could have been a yes or no. Such a way. Yes,
8:50
I know, non profit. Every detail speaking
8:52
to her with dousing rather a pendulum so
8:54
that the limits. heard about that military as
8:57
like yes know cause it's only if you
8:59
want So annoying is one day when she
9:01
passes and I try to use as inroads
9:03
they just won't work and so wanna send
9:06
me sampling this civilian dragging you around with
9:08
the dowsing rod of like trying to get
9:10
to the do serve it is so I
9:12
think this is just brought out leg. A
9:15
panicked version of her because I have been.
9:17
I gotta say at the top of that
9:19
like she's. I. Think she's
9:21
a stretch to send because she's been doing a
9:23
lot of us by herself, but also if she.
9:26
I think the whole family understands us. I try to help
9:28
or planned. That I to make the cut since there's
9:30
only so much we can do is gonna have
9:32
to watch herself get to this place and now
9:34
this is the aftermath of it. But. I
9:37
said do fly back the same day as the
9:39
ship as we lands are as big an officer.
9:42
And. She said remember your passport, the
9:44
boat has to dress your best
9:46
nights. It was called informal and
9:48
the past I'm selling Tom to
9:50
bring a sport coat. I think
9:52
they might have a Caribbean night
9:54
I have here. It is. One.
9:57
Fun dress to baby doll afternoon
9:59
or. dress, two pair
10:01
of flowing pants. She listed
10:03
her every single thing she
10:05
packed. Why? Why? She went,
10:08
I brought two workout outfits and three pairs of
10:10
shorts. I brought three bathing suits.
10:14
You do not wear flowy pants,
10:16
capris, summer dresses, cocktail
10:18
dresses. I like I
10:20
don't understand like why would she share that with
10:23
you specifically when like A you didn't ask, but
10:25
B like what are you supposed to do
10:27
with that information? I guess is what I wonder. Well,
10:30
that's funny, isn't it? Because then she talks
10:32
about how she packed a white and black
10:34
windbreaker specifically. And then she said, we're going
10:36
to go out to dinner. And I saw
10:38
some live camera shots from people and it
10:40
looks like a lot of people are casual
10:42
after dinner. Then like, and she did the
10:44
thing where like there's multiple dots and random
10:46
commas and like she pressed and I think
10:48
it's about cruise critic.com because
10:51
these kind of conversations happen there and
10:53
there are people there who want to
10:55
know what you're bringing to wear and
10:57
what they want to know what your
10:59
schedule is and your itinerary and they
11:01
will answer the most inane questions. So
11:03
all your health under there, all you'd
11:05
be saying is that there's more eyes
11:07
for this information and not, but at
11:09
least they're not your eyes. You know,
11:11
no, no, it would just be more eyes
11:14
like it'd be my eyes and other. So then
11:16
she wants to be fair. Once she realizes
11:18
that like they're really engaged and want
11:20
to, yeah, you're going to renew that
11:22
conversation. Maybe she'll like drift toward that
11:24
and be like, they're a better audience. You
11:26
know, you know how parents will
11:29
say like, just, just a sprawl
11:31
of sentences that are not strung
11:33
together because she talks about the
11:36
windbreaker. She
11:38
brings up that the lot, there's live
11:40
camera shots of people dressing casual, which
11:42
yes, they're on fucking vacation. And
11:45
then she said, uh, uh, hang
11:48
out very casual after dinner. Crewships normally
11:50
have meetings for alcoholics. Okay.
11:52
I don't care about that. You
11:55
Don't even drink alcohol. This is what I'm saying.
11:57
Like, it just feels like, I understand if it
11:59
were like, Hey. the just pack like to who?
12:01
nicer outfits like this is. Unworkable either. But
12:03
like. Or
12:06
targets. For code that would be good if reason
12:08
for you and it's that's what you unaware. but the
12:10
rest of it is hysterical. like. A
12:13
good she tried to do the thing where she rose leg.
12:15
Super ally, but than just kind of like. Put.
12:17
Her nose and play that were like I
12:19
necessary, not not not a bad way, but
12:21
she was. She listed the alcoholics group. In
12:23
case any to go there and then she
12:25
said or it's but she didn't have had.
12:27
Half of a sentence or she said. Get.
12:29
Togethers for Singles and Lgbtq which makes you
12:32
think she was searching. That and an accent.
12:34
We ended up here. Oh absolutely. And
12:37
then she said. Not sure about bringing
12:39
poncho. that's how it and see goes. Alcoholics
12:42
L Didn't you say you never and time
12:44
for lesson? Is that true? That's
12:46
very true Trade Center. And
12:52
so long. So. I just stopped
12:54
trying. I was like you know what? we're going out.
12:57
And. I'll find out you around slap next.
13:01
I. Did. I said of as.
13:04
I said. it's amazing how quickly and abruptly
13:06
we turn. Into our Mothers because that's
13:08
exactly the tax you would have complained
13:10
about her mom sending her ten years
13:12
ago. A nice view, but you mean
13:14
Linda as turning in their. Site.
13:18
Like I owe my whole life my mom
13:20
and be a lake. I just my street
13:23
fucking answer and she just gonna give me
13:25
an itinerary, have everything she ate today or
13:27
everything she's wearing out of his passes were
13:29
and eight weeks package and my mom and.
13:31
She did the exact same thing and so. I'm.
13:34
Just again owner of a to the like like army. Fucking
13:37
paragraph about your wardrobe. I can't wait.
13:39
I'm actually gonna love it. I think.
13:42
I. Can. Anyway,
13:46
So. Yeah, it's I'm just a little nervous. Because
13:48
now feels like I might be going on occurs. With
13:50
my. Grandmother. And
13:52
like I gotta say, I think my mom
13:55
is just very excited about the trip
13:57
and just like I get it but
13:59
at the same. My girl like
14:01
how do you like the call is
14:03
coming from inside the house. You are
14:05
doing exactly what a it's bike. And
14:07
like are still do the thing all the
14:09
time or she calls me. To.
14:11
I think every person. Site.
14:14
Times kind of once a kid. Just as they
14:16
can complain about. Their parents while they do the
14:18
exact same thing their parents are doing. man. Official
14:21
Call me Just say. Oh
14:23
your grandmother She just won't get off the phone.
14:25
I I tell her I have five minutes and
14:27
she will give me an hour and a half
14:29
and are not allowed to leave and she does
14:32
the exact same thing. So call me, go in
14:34
and and then you're doing I'm working. She's like
14:36
okay anyway I will tell you about my caprice
14:38
as I just I feel like I'm in like
14:40
a warp or something like some sort of time
14:42
soccer I'm like and my just as the some
14:44
big prank. So
14:47
I. See recently
14:49
I'm. One of the
14:51
thanks to my grandma always does Never we
14:54
go to her house. first thing she does
14:56
as she makes us take a tour of
14:58
her clothes. father. Every. Time Oh my
15:00
god because every time she is organized it differently
15:02
than the last time we were there and so
15:04
now we have policy where she put her shoes
15:06
and where she puts the fancy dress summers but
15:08
the castles and I just went home. Recently.
15:11
And the first thing my mom did was come upstairs.
15:14
let me show you how you organize the closet and
15:16
I would ah hitting me I was. Single
15:19
and but as well as Isis a
15:21
moment. What if she starts? Instead of
15:24
looking for Alcoholics Anonymous on the boat,
15:26
she's like the for the she just
15:28
feels like cities. Another crisis. Group
15:30
because assistance is real. That
15:32
she's com word. This is an intervention.
15:35
You know? How was our they're not
15:37
bigger groups of people. Just reconciling with
15:39
the fact that they're turning into their parents. You
15:41
know? I. Would love agree our
15:43
therapy about that. I think that's just
15:45
any one in a group like and.
15:48
Problem of of leaks insists also add
15:50
on have verbal enough to say I
15:52
am excited to be on a cruise
15:55
with her but I am just like.
15:57
it's it's like all of the similarities
15:59
or both coming at me all
16:01
at once. So... Smacking you in the face,
16:03
it sounds like. Yeah, which means now, like,
16:05
I'm forced to take on the role of
16:07
becoming her, where I get annoyed by all
16:10
this stuff, just... Then you have kids, I'm
16:12
just gonna repress it all and
16:14
just project it back onto them. I also know
16:16
that, like, one of your favorite hobbies when you're
16:18
really stressed is that you organize all your shoes
16:20
into your fancy dress. And so,
16:22
I feel like the stress is just gonna come
16:24
out with a tour of your closet when
16:26
I come to LA in a couple weeks. And I... Honestly,
16:29
it's okay. It's okay. When
16:32
I do get stressed, I do like to organize, but
16:34
it has not gone into my clothing yet. So... But
16:37
that'll be the first red flag. And then when I start telling
16:39
people about it... That'll be what I know.
16:42
That's what I need to know. I'll know and I'll
16:44
need to step in somehow. I don't know how yet,
16:46
but I'll think about it and I'll plan it. But
16:49
I think you're gonna have a wonderful time. You leave
16:51
in a couple days, right? As of recording. I
16:53
do. I leave... I leave... We have one
16:55
more recording after this and I leave after
16:57
that. Okay, you leave
16:59
Thursday or something? Okay. Wednesday. Wow.
17:03
Well, I think you're gonna have a great time. I know
17:06
we'll have a good time. I'm just kind
17:08
of scared about also being with my mom
17:10
for that long because we have a rule
17:12
on how much time we can spend together before
17:14
one of us is gonna kill the other. And
17:17
it's like tripled that amount of time. So if
17:21
I don't make it back, it's because I
17:23
made one comment too many about her damn
17:25
closet and I didn't make it. You
17:28
were forced to disembark in some island
17:31
nation. I walked the plank. Yeah. Yeah, you
17:33
walked the plank. What about
17:35
you? Why do you drink? Oh, gosh. Well,
17:37
I... You know, we're far enough in.
17:39
I don't want to even go into my thing. I'm
17:41
gonna say it on when we record in a couple of
17:43
days. I don't want to talk for a million years. I
17:46
don't know. Is
17:48
it that lengthy? Well,
17:50
it's about the psychic... Okay, I'll just say it. I went
17:52
to the psychic convention yesterday and we talked about it. You
17:54
have to talk about it. Okay, I think it
17:57
was at the end. It's at least on brand. for
18:00
the podcast, so it's not like totally off the wall.
18:03
But I went to the psychic convention with
18:05
my really good friend Celine
18:07
and my other friend, but
18:09
her sister Sophia and Celine's
18:11
partner Nick. And we did
18:14
a little road trip up to the spectacular,
18:16
as the website called it, Sherenvale Convention Center.
18:18
And if you missed this Intel, by the
18:20
way, folks, M and I talked about it
18:23
on an After Hours, which I've been
18:25
trying to name After Dark. We'll see if it
18:27
sticks. And M helped
18:30
me create an entire itinerary of
18:32
all the events that were happening,
18:34
right? On the different
18:36
stages and all that. So it
18:39
turns out we didn't really do many of
18:41
the events, like the actual stage talks, because
18:44
they were like completely in a different part
18:46
of the convention center. And there were hundreds
18:48
of booths of like tarot readers and like,
18:51
Oh, so you had fun. And or photography,
18:53
like it was just like so much stuff
18:55
that like, by the time you
18:58
got through to a certain area, you were
19:00
like, Oh, I've missed the whole talk. But
19:02
there was one time we decided to go
19:05
have a snack downstairs. It's really funny, because
19:07
when I told my mom I was going
19:09
to the Sherenvale Convention Center, she
19:11
was like to buy a gun, because this
19:13
is where they host all the gun shows,
19:15
right? Like in Ohio, it's just like a
19:17
big ass convention center in in like suburban
19:19
Ohio. And so I was
19:21
like, Yes, mother, I'm going. But
19:23
no, I'm going to a psychic fair. It's like the
19:26
opposite end of the spectrum, I guess. And
19:29
so I went up
19:31
there and it was so
19:33
we were they have this like cafe.
19:35
And I assume this is not the
19:37
name of it normally, but they called
19:39
it the mandala cafe. And I'm like,
19:41
I imagine when the NRA is hosting
19:43
this, it's not called the mandala cafe.
19:45
But then the sign said, it's
19:48
called bullseye saloon. I'm shit.
19:51
Sports room. Plus, yes. No
19:56
women ever allowed. Meet
19:58
only. Yeah, it's no
20:01
vegans allowed. I just I can't
20:03
imagine what that would be like.
20:05
But we went and it was
20:08
like kind of expensive. So we went downstairs and this
20:10
little food court and this guy we're sitting there like
20:12
eating a snack and this guy comes on he's like,
20:14
Hey, I'm about to give this presentation. If
20:16
you want to like just pop in right here
20:18
and we had wanted to see something and so
20:20
I said, Okay, yeah, we'll pop in. And I
20:22
said, Hey, I have this like reading booked for
20:24
330. So we're gonna
20:26
have to leave in about 20 minutes. And the guy's like, Oh,
20:28
that's fine. Why don't you just come in? We walk in there's
20:30
like one there's one other person in the
20:33
room and we it's like boy, it's like a big speaker
20:35
stage thing. It's like a picture
20:37
where we did our first live show at crime con,
20:39
right? There's one person one person there.
20:41
And so the three of us at
20:44
this point, we all go sit
20:46
down in the second row. And
20:49
there's this guy in the corner where who's with
20:51
the speaker and he looks like security, but he's
20:53
wearing all red. And we're like, this is weird.
20:55
Why does this guy need security? So
20:58
we're sitting there and like the presentation starts.
21:01
And he says, the first is a picture of a
21:03
pill bottle. And the first light and it says,
21:06
medication all it says all medications
21:08
are basically poison. I have a
21:11
picture of it. And I have
21:13
that's odd. And
21:15
so it's a slippery slope. It's a
21:17
slippery slope, isn't it? And in the voodoo world,
21:20
isn't it? But do you know, but do
21:22
you know where we're going? Like, like, I mean, I'm like,
21:25
big pit stop. I
21:28
assume vaccines or healing hands or some
21:30
shit. Is this chiropractic care? What?
21:33
No. No. What?
21:35
No, worse. Worse. What? I
21:37
can't imagine. What is this? What? Next
21:40
slide. If you want to learn
21:42
more about this, you should read Elrond Hubbard's book, Clear
21:44
Body Clear Mind. We have it up at our booth
21:46
upstairs. And we went and Celine
21:48
and I, growing up Scientology was
21:51
like our fucking obsession.
21:53
Like we, we researched it
21:55
like pre internet days. Like we were obsessed. We would
21:57
call, we'd be like, what are you guys even? We
22:00
didn't do in there. We would take the personality
22:02
quizzes. They've been waiting this whole time to get
22:04
you back. I know. We finally,
22:06
under one roof, got to see one presentation
22:08
and the guy goes, Elrond
22:12
Hubbard, our leader, or our great prophet.
22:14
And I'm like, you have got to
22:16
be kidding me. So Celine and I
22:18
are doing that thing where we're grabbing
22:20
each other's legs or arms, just like,
22:22
is this really happening? Oh, yes. The
22:24
Christine claw. I love her. The
22:26
Christine claw. But there's only three of us. There's four
22:28
people in the audience and we're three of them. So
22:30
he's like, and we're like, oh
22:33
my God. Oh my God. And then
22:35
he goes, yeah, even Tylenol is poison
22:38
for your body. It's just like so
22:40
inane, right? And
22:42
he goes, I bet you guys won't get this
22:44
question, right? Do you think too much oxygen can
22:47
kill you? Raise your hand. And we were like,
22:49
I mean, yeah. And
22:51
he goes, well, it is
22:53
true. And we were like, I know that's
22:55
why we raise our hand, you weirdo. Like,
22:57
of course you can die from like, I
22:59
don't understand your argument that too much so
23:01
too much Tylenol can kill you. So
23:04
just like oxygen. So at this
23:06
point where you just like cancel my plans,
23:09
we just I just have to experience all this.
23:12
I know. I have a fuck to get out of here.
23:14
We were like, we're leaving. This is insane. And
23:16
also like so boring. Like it wasn't
23:18
even like funny or fun. Like it
23:20
wasn't even enjoyable in that way, like
23:22
in an ironic way. And
23:24
so as we were getting up, we
23:27
were like, OK, thank you. I like ran away. But
23:29
he knew we were leaving already. And
23:31
then we get out there and Nick goes, did
23:33
you see that guy in the red in the
23:36
corner? And I was like, yeah. And he's like,
23:38
you didn't see his shirt. And I said, no,
23:40
apparently he was wearing like Dianetic security on his
23:42
shirt and hat. And I was like, this guy's
23:44
fucking security guard. And I'm like, who let these
23:46
people in here on a prime slot 3 p.m.
23:48
to do this fucking talk? But
23:51
thank God, like there was only one person left in there.
23:53
And I just thought like, wow, they really. And then there
23:55
were a few. There were a couple of booths
23:57
that were absolutely slippery slopes where it was like.
24:00
the truth about vaccines and
24:02
like cancer from 5g
24:07
you know but we can heal it with our hands you know
24:09
that kind of shit and so there
24:11
was definitely some icky kind of like the
24:13
hand yeah you gotta go in there that
24:15
sharp you gotta go in their prime yes
24:18
sharp a hundred percent and so thank God we
24:20
were and we were all like we have enough wits about
24:22
us to be like this
24:24
is not it there was like Hari Krishna there were
24:26
so many groups not so many but there were like
24:28
a couple where we were like okay we would text
24:30
each other like avoid 607 by
24:32
the way that was my entology booth and the
24:35
one and the other one that was the other
24:37
issue that I felt really weird about even when
24:39
I went to bed last night I just felt
24:41
kind of disappointed and it's not that the event
24:44
was bad I actually had a really good time
24:46
and like met some
24:48
really cool people and bought some really cool
24:50
chachkas as we discussed but the thing that
24:53
bummed me out was the number of old
24:55
white men called like white
24:58
feather and then they were like
25:00
I'm from Belgium and I'm like
25:02
what you know and I'm not in
25:04
a place obviously to determine
25:07
by looks whether somebody comes from an indigenous
25:09
background like that is not what I'm saying
25:11
but there were several people where I would
25:13
then look them up and it was like
25:15
you could you know and it's like okay
25:17
Cindy you shouldn't
25:21
be teaching about like well
25:24
there was something I just feels there was
25:27
it feels there a class that we looked
25:29
at on the ice and Ray where we
25:31
were like maybe that's not for you that
25:33
was that was Cindy oh that was Cindy
25:35
okay so we were at the time well
25:38
we were onto it because at the time I thought you
25:40
know well we don't know if somebody is indigenous
25:42
or has a background or you know whatever
25:44
but then of course like upon reading her
25:46
like bio and stuff I was like oh
25:48
I don't feel right about that and
25:51
there was a lot of like selling of native
25:53
and tribal you know symbology that
25:56
like clearly was just kind of
25:59
adopted by some
26:01
white Ohioans, you know. And I know,
26:05
you know, I know that happens, but it just
26:07
felt so much, like
26:10
it just felt like there was so little
26:12
representation of people who were actually practicing
26:14
those things. You
26:16
know, it felt like almost, I don't
26:18
know that everyone, but most of them that I
26:21
looked up were like not actually, you
26:23
know, being represented by people who
26:26
actually have like that cultural background
26:28
or that association. So it felt
26:30
a little weird, but
26:32
I did have two readings with two mediums,
26:34
which was really fun. And I believe my
26:37
grandma came through, which was pretty cool. Actually,
26:39
why don't we talk about that on the
26:41
after hours? I'll tell you about my readings. Okay. Cool,
26:43
yeah. Then that way, that way, there's
26:46
like a little extra bonus content. Did
26:48
you, cause
26:51
you were supposed to originally, the itinerary was
26:53
that you have like eight different places you were gonna
26:56
go. Did you go to any of them? I
26:59
mean, no. Well,
27:02
yes, yes, no, I did, I did.
27:05
I went to one before the Scientology
27:07
one. And when I went to the
27:09
first one, there was not a single
27:11
person in the room. And I just peeked
27:13
my head in, but I had to leave in like
27:15
20 minutes because I kept signing up for different slots
27:17
for like, for a reading, palm read, you know. And
27:20
so I was like, oh, I can't stay a full hour. And
27:22
by the way, I would be the only person in
27:24
the audience. And it's not like, like
27:28
I just felt uncomfortable being like, I'm gonna sit
27:30
here and then I'm gonna leave 10 minutes into
27:32
this hour long vacation. And then there's nobody in
27:34
the room. And so I felt like, uncomfortably. That
27:37
should have been like, maybe
27:39
that's something they talk about in the future about
27:42
like a scheduling situation. Cause yeah, if everybody's got
27:44
different slots for things and nobody's gonna be able to
27:47
go to an hour long thing.
27:49
It felt like it was
27:51
not the best organization. And
27:54
also finding these stages took us like two hours
27:56
cause you have to go through the whole fucking
27:59
auditorium, which is... again, like hundreds and
28:01
hundreds of booths and like thousands of people.
28:03
And then you have to find some staircase
28:05
and then they're all in a basement. So
28:07
it's like, it's not like very accessible either.
28:09
Um, but anyway, it was very
28:11
cool. Otherwise, um, I had a very
28:13
good time and, uh, yeah, yeah.
28:18
Thank you for, uh, let me blab about that
28:20
for a bit. I am
28:22
sad. You didn't get to go to some of those classes because
28:24
I was hoping to learn on your behalf about pets
28:26
being the mirrors to something
28:29
I don't, okay, so we can talk
28:31
about this. And after I was two, my friend
28:33
went to her though, cause that's the other thing.
28:35
All those people who did these stages had booths.
28:37
So one of the people that did the mediumship,
28:40
um, reading that I was going to go to, but we
28:42
didn't get there on time. I got a
28:44
reading from her. So it was like, Oh, I
28:46
still got to experience all that. Um, even
28:49
though I didn't go to the, like the actual hour long
28:51
presentation. Okay. Well then, okay. Then
28:54
I don't feel so bad, but I'm glad
28:56
you had fun though. I
28:58
did. Thank you. And your itinerary did help because
29:00
I was able to say we like this person
29:02
and we should check out their booth, like this
29:04
person, and then I vetted. I
29:07
almost feel like convention halls, like the
29:09
same thing with like, if, if I ever went to comic
29:11
con, you gotta do the two days cause you got to do
29:13
one day of like exhibits and one
29:16
day of like, just doing all the
29:18
vendors because the vendors are so overwhelming.
29:20
Yeah. Yeah. It was so overwhelming. And
29:22
there were places where I was like, Oh, we got to do that
29:24
before we leave. And then before we knew it, like five
29:26
hours had passed. So I went to LA's
29:29
comic con and I was like, I
29:32
can't imagine San Diego comic. Imagine
29:34
the big one. Yeah. Part
29:36
of me is always like I, cause I think like
29:39
a year or two ago, I was like, you know
29:41
what, one of my things this year is I'm going
29:43
to go to more conventions and like, see more like
29:45
exhibit halls and like do more like, and
29:47
I never ended up really happening because my first thought was
29:50
like, I want to go to San Diego comic con I've
29:52
never gone. And then I went to LA's to
29:54
practice and I was like, I am practice
29:57
round was a Lot. And
30:00
video comecon. I think it's like ten
30:02
times that size of like coach Hello
30:04
for nerd saws like I am so
30:07
basic I can go. This conference is
30:09
going to Colorado Springs and like Sedona
30:11
next and I'm like that's gonna be
30:13
off the chain dude lattice how Ohio.
30:15
We had some Indiana sight gags some
30:18
year now. Michigan that like. Oh
30:20
out there in those Like real. Big whoop
30:22
ass cities it's gonna go about
30:24
be utterly allow. Well yeah, Yeah.
30:27
Any of those like big hot spots for
30:29
her up for for metaphysical stuff are going
30:31
to be. A Doozy! Well
30:34
I'm very happy When person, what are
30:36
you? Will you drink Just like of
30:38
a watershed A you've got a coffee
30:40
search. You. Know I've got my
30:42
liquid I the which I I'm
30:45
a little annoyed because these descended
30:47
to me since I was like
30:49
doing some promo with them online.
30:52
And. Over time I
30:54
guess I just wasn't posting enough about my
30:56
like code or. Whatever. See so
30:58
many of. Us
31:01
so now like shit I better serve hosts about it.
31:03
Utter won't move of i think I don't even have
31:05
a code is a big as as xt but it's
31:07
like twenty percent off so you know if anyone wants
31:10
any but I am drinking it to them trying do
31:12
I'm. He. Might be
31:14
more active about my water consumption
31:16
after all of your bullying calling
31:18
me a rat the out while
31:20
I'll keep doing that. Know.
31:22
It's rating system. I literally don't
31:24
have anything to drink in. The.
31:27
House or now. except for these damn were beers
31:29
I keep showing up at my house. Ethics: As
31:31
member I got a root beers yeah yet as
31:33
a gift. I so unless
31:36
you really drink repair all the time
31:38
than it. Compiles,
31:40
Up very quickly accumulate. Oh, I
31:42
feel I'm I'm a. Part.
31:44
Of me feels a little resentful until I can get through
31:46
some of this because I'm like man, there's so much repair.
31:49
So I'm. Birth.
31:51
Birth powering through right now at. It
31:54
feels like morning for me. I. Guess it's noon so it's
31:56
not who we are now for me to be drinking. rebirth but
31:58
i thought it was apropos be because
32:00
this brand is called Capone. Oh,
32:04
that's fun. I was like, we
32:06
could do something with that. It
32:09
does feel weird to be taking my
32:11
heart medication with just like nothing but
32:13
sodium rich soda. I always do that. I
32:16
always take my, I took my vitamins with
32:18
a strawberry Fanta the other day. I was like, it
32:20
seems like it's just counteracting. One
32:23
of them is keeping you alive, but not both. We
32:25
don't know which one though. The
32:27
other one's just, which one? Nobody knows. Science
32:30
has not figured it out yet. But
32:33
yeah, so listen, I get it. I
32:35
do the same thing. Okay,
32:37
well, before I tell my
32:40
story, this is my
32:42
PSA to all my thirsty little rats
32:44
out there, including Christine, to
32:47
drink some water. And I'd really, I
32:49
feel bad that I just like knocked liquid IV
32:51
out, I wasn't trying to do that. I'm just sad that
32:53
I wasn't good enough at promo-ing them. It's
32:56
my own fault. But I will say, I
32:58
think I have a link in my, Lincoln
33:01
Bio, I think, if anybody wants the code.
33:03
I mean, because I know this shit's expensive.
33:05
I'm like, they used to get
33:07
me some packets every now and then but now Blaze
33:09
drinks it and so it disappears. So I
33:11
have to hide it in my office. Speaking
33:14
of Lincoln Bio, do you know what the Lincoln My Bio
33:16
is? Is
33:20
it a picture of poop? I don't know, what is
33:22
it? It is close.
33:24
It's to our new book that
33:26
we are trying to get people
33:28
to pre-order. Right,
33:32
that old thing. Well,
33:35
that old thing is Atlas, the Hotter Road
33:37
Atlas one. Hotter Road
33:40
Atlas sequel is called Next Stop and please
33:42
pre-order. It helps us with our numbers and
33:44
our first week of sales. And
33:46
you can find that link in our bio or in the show notes
33:48
of this episode. Thank you so much. And
33:51
with that, here's a story for you,
33:53
Christine. I'm excited about
33:56
this one. It's not as just awful as
33:58
last week's with the Charman. Excited
34:01
to. Not. Cringe my
34:03
way through this all the way up. raise.
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Start planning at zola.com. That's z-o-l-a.com. Oh
36:29
by the way, oh Christine, oh you
36:31
fucked up my algorithm so bad with
36:33
that Ruby Frankie nonsense because the second
36:35
you said it was in my phone's
36:38
ear, all of a sudden every
36:41
single thing that popped up on my
36:43
tech talk was like months old Ruby
36:45
Frankie content. Yeah it's probably all the
36:47
ones that I've watched over and over
36:50
that like now is saying oh you
36:52
you mentioned the topic here's Christine's fucking
36:54
treasure trove of likes and
36:56
it's annoying I'm so sorry. I tried to
36:58
mix with my current algorithm and so I
37:00
just got a bunch of the gay stuff where it's like
37:02
they're definitely gay and here's why
37:05
they're definitely gay and here's why.
37:07
Oh about Ruby. Ruby
37:09
and Jodi or whatever. Which by the way
37:12
is one of the fun parts to talk
37:14
about you know so. Well,
37:17
could be worse. Okay
37:19
well here we go this is a
37:23
mystery a maybe
37:25
a mystery maybe not we'll see. This is
37:28
the case of the Pollock
37:30
sisters the Pollock twins. Why
37:33
do I know that name? I
37:35
go through phases where I get obsessed with twins so
37:37
maybe I just read it one time but I don't
37:39
remember. So I have
37:41
not covered them for a while because
37:43
I thought that they
37:46
were another
37:48
set of twins I've covered which
37:50
were Jennifer and June Gibbons aka
37:52
the silent twins and that was
37:54
episode 49. 49. Oh that's my
37:57
lucky number. I guarantee you you said
37:59
that in the episode. I
38:01
know I did. And
38:03
so anyway,
38:05
there's, there are a
38:07
new set of twins, I confused them myself.
38:10
So that's why I haven't covered them before, but
38:12
they're different. In the 1920s,
38:14
this is in England, in the 1920s,
38:17
John and Florence Pollock were the future
38:20
parents of these Pollock twins. They
38:23
were born in the 1920s. They
38:25
both grew up Christian. They both
38:27
ended up converting to Catholicism later.
38:29
And at a very young age,
38:31
John Pollock, he read about reincarnation
38:33
and was fascinated with it. I'm
38:39
excited. And he,
38:41
despite it not aligning with his
38:43
faith, he didn't care. He was
38:45
like, I am obsessed with this. This is so cool.
38:49
It's like if I decide to be religious, but I
38:51
also threw in time travel as like a main tenant.
38:53
I was like, it's happy. There's no way. You
38:56
were like, I get the 10 commandments, but here's my
38:58
11th. And it's that time travel is real.
39:02
If it's real ever, it's real
39:04
now. I'm just saying because no,
39:07
I'm full. Listen, I'm in full agreement because
39:09
it's got to be real. If it's real
39:11
ever, right. Then like it's real always. If
39:15
time traveling to the past is real
39:17
and for guys, I would
39:21
be so obnoxious with a bag of
39:23
weed or whatever you guys eat it
39:25
with. A bag? Yeah. I'm
39:29
like one of the gummies that I
39:31
buy legally online that they deliver to me in
39:33
a shiny pack. Yeah. Sometimes
39:35
I think if I
39:37
really do wish I went like acid tripping at
39:40
least once in my life because I would have
39:42
had the best fucking time. Listen, the
39:44
night is young. Your life is young. Let's not count
39:46
it out just yet. Okay.
39:52
Well, let's get me a new heart first
39:54
and then we'll try things like acid. Fine.
39:58
Okay. So
40:00
he's nine years old, believes in reincarnation, no
40:02
matter what his religion says, he's like, maybe
40:04
it's real, maybe it's real. And
40:07
he sometimes even prays to God
40:09
for proof that reincarnation is
40:12
real so he can feel validated in his
40:14
own belief. Wow. Yeah,
40:17
he's big on this. So
40:21
in 1946, John and Florence
40:23
now have a couple of kids. They
40:26
got a few sons, some sources said
40:28
two, some sources said four, most sources
40:30
said two. And
40:34
they also have a daughter that was born that year
40:36
named Joanna. And
40:38
once Joanna was old enough to
40:40
talk, she started regularly saying, I
40:43
will never grow up to be a lady. Uh-oh.
40:47
Yikes. Uh,
40:51
the family moves eventually to another
40:53
area in England where they start
40:55
running a milk delivery company and,
40:59
or like a milk milkman services,
41:01
essentially. And
41:03
in 1951, five years later after Joanna
41:06
was born, they have another daughter
41:08
named Jacqueline who was born. So
41:12
Joanna and Jacqueline, they
41:14
are five years apart from each other, but
41:16
they are very, very bonded. They have
41:18
everything together. Joanna is
41:21
especially known, maybe it's because she's the older
41:23
sister, but she was especially known to be
41:25
very kind to people and inclusive and take
41:27
care of them and bring them into the
41:29
fold. She was very
41:32
doting to Jacqueline and she
41:34
would just look out for the other kids
41:36
in the area. And she was also known,
41:39
like her favorite hobby was putting on really
41:41
elaborate plays like costumes and
41:43
set deck. Like this girl put in
41:45
the work for a themed play. And
41:50
so that's what Joanna was known for. Both
41:52
sisters also had this weird habit of showing
41:54
affection to people by combing their hair. We
41:57
don't really know where that came from, but it just kind
42:00
of was an organic thing
42:03
that happened for them. They both really loved combing
42:05
people's hair to show them that they liked them. And.
42:08
That's very sweet. It's
42:11
literally all precious. So this
42:13
is now six years later in 1957. So
42:16
Joanna is 11, Jacqueline is six. They
42:19
are walking with their friend Anthony to
42:23
mass at, they're
42:25
trying to go to church. This
42:27
is literally like out of a movie.
42:29
The three of them are all holding
42:31
hands and walking quietly down the street. Just
42:34
three little kids all holding hands together. Is
42:39
that not precious? I imagine they're skipping and whoopin'
42:41
sick. Yeah, but I think I'm remembering this. I'm
42:43
remembering this story all of a sudden. I'm
42:45
remembering it and I don't know if I heard it. Yeah, it
42:47
couldn't have been on here, right? Obviously.
42:51
It might've been on a different podcast once, but I'm
42:54
maybe probably a Smoshy Legends. I don't know,
42:56
but okay, go on. Okay,
42:59
they're all holding hands, maybe hoopin' sick,
43:01
maybe skipping something. Something precious. Imagine the
43:03
cutest, sweetest thing you ever could. And
43:05
then hold on to that again. Kick
43:08
the can, which by the way I found out is
43:10
more than just kicking a fucking can back and forth.
43:12
There's rules to kick the can. I didn't know that.
43:14
I feel like I learned that on Hey Arnold,
43:16
but I don't recall completely. I
43:19
think I saw it on Hey Arnold and thought they were kidding. I
43:21
was like, those idiots don't know how to kick the
43:23
can. I really thought kick the can was like, I
43:25
kick the can and then you kick the can and
43:27
somehow we end up in another location because we walked.
43:29
No, it's like a full game, I think. Yeah. Okay,
43:32
you, me and Eve are gonna play kick the can when you come to
43:34
LA. It sounds like you're not
43:36
very good at it. I'm not,
43:38
so you have a good chance at winning, Miss
43:40
Competitive. Let's do it, finally. I thought I'd be
43:42
competitive. Listen, you're either
43:45
projecting or something. I
43:48
don't know, man. I think I have
43:50
seen you in a room with your brother maybe
43:53
during one heated conversation and
43:55
then I ran with it. I was like, all right. Well,
43:57
okay. They are obviously competitive. With a sibling that's different. fair.
44:00
I just want to know
44:02
the rules to kick the can. So we're gonna do it sometime
44:04
and then you can go play with Zandi
44:06
and then you can win over there. Okay
44:09
so they're holding hands very
44:11
sweet. Nearby there is
44:13
a woman named Marjorie Wynn and
44:17
she is going through
44:19
it. She is apparently very riddled with grief
44:22
at the moment after losing her husband. She
44:24
is some sources say she was like forcibly
44:26
separated from her own kids. I don't know
44:29
what the story is there but
44:31
she was struggling in a lot of ways
44:33
and it seems that either she was maybe
44:36
attempting to end her life or
44:39
she was just really
44:41
having a bad day and took maybe
44:43
too many pills. Oh
44:46
no. Some stories say she was
44:48
hoping she would overdose. Some people say it was
44:50
an accidental overdose but either
44:52
way the dose was not lethal
44:54
as quickly as one would anticipate
44:57
and while under the influence she gets in
45:00
her car and starts driving erratically through town.
45:03
Fuck. People tried to stop
45:05
her there was literally people in their own cars
45:08
like trying to chase her down and like swerve
45:10
her off the road but nobody could do anything
45:12
about it. She was flying
45:15
and unfortunately her car ended up jumping
45:17
the curb on the sidewalk and
45:20
bam hit all three kids holding hands so sweetly
45:22
on their way to church and
45:24
all of them die pretty instantly. I mean
45:26
that's a fucking nightmare dude. One
45:30
source said that all of
45:33
the kids literally went
45:35
flying. So
45:37
all three died? All three died.
45:45
The sisters died I think pretty
45:47
instantly. Anthony I think
45:49
went to the hospital and then died later which
45:51
is just even worse. He almost hoped that it
45:53
was just instant. So
45:57
seemingly unaware of what happened?
46:00
Marjorie just keeps driving. Like she
46:04
thought she just hit a curb or something. Eventually
46:08
her car gives out or someone's able to get her
46:10
off the road and seeming really
46:13
dazed she was quoted saying,
46:15
what's the matter? Did I
46:17
hit someone? Girl. Now
46:20
some other sources say that she actually
46:22
intentionally hit them after having some
46:24
sort of psychotic break about losing
46:26
her own kids. We don't know
46:28
what the real answer is but she was...
46:31
It sounds like she doesn't even know. Yeah
46:33
I don't think she knows who she was and so
46:35
she ended up quickly being
46:38
unresponsive and I think probably passing out from
46:40
the medication. She goes to the hospital and
46:42
they treat her for an overdose but then
46:45
she is put under like intense psychiatric
46:47
care obviously. But I get this they
46:49
put her under psychiatric care for her acute
46:52
melancholy. Mmm. So
46:56
I don't know like depression light
46:59
even though she literally just fucking killed
47:02
Freaks. Well acute means set and onset
47:04
and like acute means
47:06
like not good. Like it's like... Remember
47:09
we've talked about this where I used to think acute meant like
47:12
lower because it's an acute angle. I'm
47:15
still there. Yeah. Yeah no
47:18
apparently you're saying like kind of.
47:20
Acute is the opposite of chronic
47:22
because chronic is just like a constant
47:24
underlying acute is like a sudden onset
47:26
of something. So basically
47:29
it's probably true whatever
47:31
acute melancholy. Yeah and
47:34
melancholy still I don't feel like no one even
47:37
uses that word anymore. That feels like a no.
47:39
I think like they used to sum up a
47:41
lot of I think a lot of things with
47:43
just like melancholia and it was just
47:45
like or hysteria probably. Or
47:47
hysteria. Yeah that one was
47:49
probably more anxiety but yeah.
47:51
Yeah I feel like either you were too
47:53
much and it was hysteria or you were not enough
47:56
and it was melancholia. So
48:00
anyway, she gets put away, we don't really
48:02
hear about her again. So the
48:05
three kids, they all passed
48:07
very quickly. They
48:09
were also apparently buried side by side
48:11
in adjoining graves, which like... So
48:15
the dad was obviously, or John
48:17
Pollock, the one who as a kid always
48:19
believed in reincarnation. He
48:22
was like, obviously beside
48:24
himself and he spent most of the
48:26
time after this in his daughter's room.
48:30
He claimed he could still feel their presence. And
48:33
shortly after, Florence was pregnant.
48:38
And they literally prayed
48:40
for their daughters to return.
48:42
So keep in mind,
48:44
immediately the story tickles
48:47
the placebo effect. Right,
48:49
right, right. Sure. There's like some
48:51
bias immediately, right? So
48:54
anyway, they... And actually
48:56
while I say this, John
48:59
was very into reincarnation. Apparently Florence
49:01
was like so not into these beliefs that
49:03
it almost actually caused them to get divorced
49:05
a few times. So he was like really
49:08
into that. Well, I mean, I've heard
49:10
people... People
49:13
get divorced when they lose a child, let
49:15
alone three children because they cope with grief
49:18
differently or they... So I
49:20
can imagine, in this case, if he's really
49:22
holding on to this idea that they're going
49:24
to be reborn and she's trying to get
49:27
back to focusing on
49:29
her pregnancy, the other kids, I can imagine that
49:31
being a big... Yeah.
49:33
A point of contention, I imagine, for
49:36
the two of them. Yeah,
49:38
I think there... I
49:40
didn't see any information on before this event
49:42
that she was really... had a strong opinion
49:48
of it. I think she just kind of disagreed. And I think,
49:51
yeah, people grieve differently and I think he was
49:53
holding on to it and she was like, can you shut
49:55
the fuck up and let me just get
49:58
over the fact that both my daughters decided. pregnancy
50:00
without like wondering if it's my dead
50:02
children. Yeah, yeah. It's really like really,
50:04
I mean, being pregnant is hard enough,
50:07
that one I can speak to. So I
50:09
imagine it was like, okay, like I
50:12
don't want to keep talking about that grim thing
50:14
right now. Yeah, I don't
50:16
know. I don't know. On your health
50:18
and everything. Or like
50:20
even your. That sounds terrible. Or
50:22
even like he's, it almost
50:25
in some ways like takes away from his own
50:27
excitement about a new baby. It's like, oh, he's
50:29
right. You're putting a lot of
50:32
pressure on. You're like, oh, I want
50:34
them to be the replacement of. Yeah. Yeah.
50:36
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not blaming him at
50:38
all either. I'm sure I would probably honestly
50:40
have this exact same reaction. So I'm not,
50:42
I'm not saying like he's in the wrong, but
50:44
I can see why that would be like a,
50:47
like a, a tense attention in the house. Yeah.
50:49
As someone who believes in reincarnation, I,
50:52
right. I don't think if I
50:54
went through something horrible, I could get through
50:56
it without assuming for a second, like as
50:58
I'm getting through it, like maybe they'll come
51:00
back having the whole at least, you know?
51:02
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
51:05
So they're grieving differently. It really drives
51:07
a wedge between them, but she's
51:11
pregnant. And in 1958 Florence gives
51:13
birth and they had gone
51:15
to doctor's appointments. The doctor said, Oh, it's like a
51:17
healthy baby, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But
51:20
she gives birth to two babies. Never
51:24
told that there was actually
51:26
another baby. Oh,
51:28
because back then it was hard to tell. The
51:31
doctors even were like, we had no
51:33
idea. Like this is not supposed to happen. Yeah. Because
51:35
if one's just like, I watched a lot of call the
51:37
midwife before I had a baby, then I
51:39
can't watch it anymore. But when
51:41
I did watch it, I was like kind of
51:43
surprised how little they were
51:45
able to figure out back then, like
51:47
just because they didn't have ultrasounds obviously
51:49
for a while. So you
51:52
just have to feel around. Yeah. And
51:55
I guess he only felt one baby. So
51:58
what a surprise. grieving their
52:00
two daughters they now have two
52:02
daughters. Oh that is
52:05
so crazy. So did the,
52:07
I'm sorry to ask, I know you already said it but did
52:09
the boy end up passing? Yeah.
52:11
All three kids died okay. All three did but one was
52:13
just their friend. Oh
52:16
it was a friend, oh I'm sorry I thought it
52:18
was a his son because I was like does he
52:20
not want him to come back to you? Okay, somebody
52:22
else's son. Okay. No they were just going to church
52:24
with one of their friends and then the friend also passed.
52:27
Mm-hmm. Yeah so they ended
52:29
up having identical twins and
52:31
even though identical twins are not sorry
52:33
not identical twins, twins in general were
52:35
not like on
52:38
either side like it
52:40
was not common. They couldn't have expected this.
52:42
It wasn't like a genetic thing that they
52:44
were expecting. Right let alone identical
52:47
twins and so they
52:50
end up having identical is the
52:52
fluke right? Yeah that's why
52:54
I'm saying like either way I guess it wouldn't have.
52:56
Oh I see. Yeah my friend had identical twins and
53:01
she said that's just like when your your
53:03
body just like goes like oops I made two of them.
53:06
Also I heard that if I mean so fraternal
53:08
twins are the only ones that you can like
53:11
maybe see coming but it's also apparently
53:13
only if on
53:16
the mom side or on the uterus
53:18
owner side. Apparently they're in charge
53:24
genetically on whether or not twins come through so
53:26
if you are even if you're a male
53:29
fraternal twin and you
53:32
know you're having a baby it doesn't matter.
53:34
Apparently it's just a... I see.
53:37
Yeah. Well in that case I'm in luck because
53:40
I always wanted twins
53:42
but now I think that was a bad
53:44
call. Maybe
53:47
I'm okay without. I've
53:50
always I mean we've talked about this before I've always
53:52
liked the the whimsy of multiples
53:54
but yeah and if I found out
53:56
right now if I had
53:58
three babies showing up all once I would
54:00
absolutely pass out. So they have these identical
54:03
twins and this
54:07
is where if you need to write it down
54:09
I understand but
54:11
the original sisters were
54:13
Joanna and Jacqueline. Okay.
54:16
We write it down. I am.
54:19
I don't have gargoyles so. Yeah,
54:21
an old-fashioned pen will do.
54:23
Joanna and Jacqueline and the
54:25
new sisters are Jillian and Jennifer.
54:29
Okay. I mean I guess at least they gave them
54:31
new names. Yeah. Oh
54:34
yeah. I don't mean that to be flippant. I
54:36
mean seriously like I didn't know if they were
54:38
gonna say you know we'd
54:40
maybe maybe they compromised maybe he did want
54:42
to name them the same just to like
54:45
come yeah well have that come from and
54:47
part of me is like maybe they were just going
54:50
for a theme but it does feel oddly close to
54:52
home that like it's mm-hmm you know I
54:54
mean I will say
54:56
out of these four girl J names
54:58
three of them are Duggar names. Oh
55:02
there you go. So they still have which one
55:04
do they have to go Joanna they don't have yet? They
55:07
have a well they have a Joyanna and
55:09
a Johanna that are both sisters in the family.
55:11
They couldn't come up with anything original. So
55:13
Jacqueline is what they don't have. They don't have a
55:16
Jacqueline. Okay. Anyway only bring
55:18
that up because it is not something
55:20
I missed that there's a series of J names
55:22
in a family. Okay. Yeah yeah yeah.
55:26
So okay so they have the older
55:28
sisters are Joanna and Jacqueline the newer
55:30
sisters are Jillian and Jennifer
55:34
and right away they noticed that
55:36
each of these sisters seems to
55:38
have a weird set of commonalities
55:41
with one of the previous sisters. Oh
55:44
boy. For one
55:46
Jennifer has two very interesting birthmarks
55:49
and both of them match identical
55:51
spots where Jacqueline had spots.
55:54
That's pretty weird I was gonna say
55:56
that's one you can't really imagine. So
56:00
one was a discoloration at exactly the same spot
56:02
that Jacqueline had one on her waist. They
56:07
both had the same thing. Another
56:12
one was right above Jennifer's eye,
56:14
which is a scar
56:17
that Jacqueline once had from when she fell into a
56:19
bucket when she was a kid. Or when she was
56:21
a toddler, I guess. I was saying I would
56:23
do. I know. So- I
56:26
went to a bucket. I went to a bucket. So
56:30
it was a scar on Jacqueline's face, and now in
56:32
the exact same spot in the exact same way is
56:34
now a birthmark on Jennifer's face. Also,
56:38
Jennifer also had three
56:41
birthmarks near her nose in the
56:44
same places where Jacqueline got
56:46
stitches after
56:48
the accident. Pretty weird.
56:52
When alive, Joanna, who
56:54
kind of takes over – who
56:56
seems to have been taken over by Jillian
56:58
if we're playing this game, like just so
57:00
you know who's who – when
57:04
alive, Joanna had a splay-footed walk
57:06
while Jillian also had a splay-footed
57:08
walk. Meanwhile, Jacqueline, when alive, did
57:10
not have a splay-footed walk, and
57:12
neither did Jennifer. So they both already
57:14
walk like one of the others. Despite
57:19
being identical, Jennifer was slightly
57:21
stockier, as was Jacqueline, and
57:23
Jillian was more slender, as
57:25
was Joanna. And
57:27
one time Jillian actually pointed at
57:29
Jennifer's birthmark, the one that looked
57:32
– that was like right over
57:34
her eye, and she
57:36
said, that is the mark Jennifer got
57:38
when she fell on a bucket. Which
57:41
– that was not Jennifer. That
57:44
was- Oh,
57:46
how weird that she said Jennifer to,
57:48
like she like – as though it
57:50
happened in this life. Oh, how weird.
57:53
Yeah, it's like, oh, that's where you fell. I
57:55
remember that. And it was actually when Jacqueline fell
57:57
when she was alive. Ooh, that gave me chills.
58:01
This one's a little odd for me. I feel
58:03
like we're kind of looking
58:06
for things at this point. But Jennifer,
58:09
as an adult, held a pencil
58:11
the exact same way as Jacqueline
58:14
did. And Joanna held
58:16
a pencil the same way Jillian did. I guess they
58:18
held them in odd ways and they both ended up-
58:21
I don't even know how I held a pencil, but- Yeah,
58:23
that one was like, okay, I guess
58:25
I'll add that one in. Another
58:28
example of- is that
58:30
the girls started to talk about places
58:32
they remembered, but they had never actually
58:35
been before. But Jacqueline and Joanna had
58:37
been. So an example
58:39
of this is the family moved away
58:41
from their old neighborhood when the
58:44
two new daughters came. The
58:47
family moved away before they could have gained any
58:49
memories about that place. But years
58:51
later, as older kids, Jennifer and
58:54
Jillian would visit the town
58:56
with their parents and want to play at
58:58
the park very badly, even though they'd never
59:00
been to that park. But they remember all these
59:02
memories at the park, and even when
59:05
their parents said, okay, we'll go to the park,
59:07
the kids led the way, despite not knowing how
59:09
to get there. Oh, boy, that's weird. They
59:11
also walked past- to get to the park, they
59:14
walked past Joanna and Jacqueline's old
59:16
school and immediately started talking
59:18
about that building, calling it their school,
59:20
and reminiscing in ways that they should not
59:22
have been able to. They even called it- Oh, that's weird.
59:26
They even called it our school before
59:28
they even saw it around the corner. But they
59:30
said, our school's coming up, and then they turned
59:33
the corner, and then there was Jacqueline and Joanna's
59:35
school. Another
59:38
time, they were actually overheard talking about a
59:41
car accident. They had never been in a
59:43
car accident, but they were talking about, in
59:45
detail, a car accident they had been in, including
59:49
Jillian going over to Jennifer, holding
59:51
Jennifer's head, and saying, the blood's
59:54
coming out of your eyes. That's
59:56
where the car hit you. And
1:00:00
even weirder, John and Florence
1:00:02
remember when they had to go identify
1:00:05
their daughters that Jacqueline had bandages on
1:00:07
her eyes. And
1:00:10
now she's saying, there's blood coming out. I
1:00:13
need you to listen to me very carefully.
1:00:16
When you started the story, you literally said
1:00:18
to me, I'm so glad I'm not doing
1:00:20
a rough one like last week. And now
1:00:22
you're like, anyways, these three dead children. I'm
1:00:24
like, Jesus Christ, this is darker than anything
1:00:27
you've covered. Yeah, this is actually
1:00:29
pretty rough. The last one you
1:00:31
said was not probably not even real. Well,
1:00:36
I did forget I was talking to a parent
1:00:38
here, too. So it's just got to be still.
1:00:40
I mean, I don't imagine it's easy for anyone
1:00:43
to hear three children get hit by a car
1:00:45
and bleeding out of their eyes. But
1:00:48
I mean, I think it's probably extra hard
1:00:50
for for parents. It's
1:00:52
just unpleasant, definitely. So
1:00:55
on top of all this, the twins from
1:00:57
the very beginning always had a
1:00:59
terrible phobia of cars. And any time a car
1:01:01
just drove by them casually, they would say it
1:01:03
was going to hit them and they'd start freaking
1:01:05
out. When
1:01:08
they were three, the girls got a box
1:01:10
of toys that once belonged to Joanna and
1:01:12
Jacqueline. And one source even said one
1:01:15
source even said they only got this box
1:01:17
of toys because they kept asking for their
1:01:19
old toys back. And
1:01:22
the parents had to go find like
1:01:25
toys that they tucked away to remember Joanna and Jacqueline.
1:01:29
Holy shit. Jillian
1:01:31
immediately claimed one of the dolls that
1:01:33
belonged to Joanna. Jennifer
1:01:35
immediately claimed a doll that used to be
1:01:38
Jacqueline's. And they both adamantly said
1:01:40
that these dolls came from Santa. And
1:01:42
when they were getting to Joanna and Jacqueline,
1:01:44
they were originally Christmas presents. Oh,
1:01:48
my God. How weird is that? They
1:01:51
both also named their dolls Mary
1:01:53
and Susan, which Joanna and Jacqueline
1:01:56
named the dolls. Shut
1:02:00
the fuck up. There
1:02:02
were apparently other toys in Jacklands,
1:02:04
of Jacklands and Joanna's that the
1:02:06
girls also remembered were
1:02:09
previous Christmas toys and claimed them
1:02:11
as their own. Whoa. This
1:02:13
was the moment, now years
1:02:15
later, this was the moment where Florence was
1:02:17
convinced that maybe reincarnation was
1:02:20
at play because remember she was
1:02:22
so against it. And
1:02:24
I guess this toy moment is when she
1:02:27
was like, okay, this is too fucking weird.
1:02:30
Yeah. Now for everyone
1:02:32
wondering like how much is being said
1:02:34
to them in passing that maybe they
1:02:37
like, you
1:02:39
know, were accidentally creating personas based on
1:02:41
what they'd heard. John
1:02:44
claims that even
1:02:47
though he was thinking about reincarnation the whole
1:02:49
time, he never mentioned it out
1:02:51
loud to the family, he didn't wanna freak out
1:02:53
the kids, he didn't wanna like, you know, give
1:02:56
them any bias at any point. He
1:02:58
said he never even mentioned reincarnation with the twins
1:03:00
in the room until like age 13. Wow.
1:03:05
But, well we'll get to
1:03:07
that. So until
1:03:09
then the girls continued to exhibit similar behaviors
1:03:11
of Joanna's in Jacklands. They had a special
1:03:14
bond with their grandma who once raised Joanna
1:03:16
and Jacqueline and they seemed to have a
1:03:18
strong bond right away as if they already
1:03:20
knew each other. When
1:03:23
the first two daughters died,
1:03:26
Florence ended up staying
1:03:28
home cause she just couldn't handle the grief and
1:03:30
she stopped working and doing
1:03:32
milk deliveries. But later they
1:03:35
ended up finding her old work uniform
1:03:37
and saying, oh, that's mommy's coat from
1:03:39
when she would wear, from when
1:03:41
she would be on deliveries. And nobody knew how
1:03:43
they were able to know that. Through
1:03:47
the years, Jillian, just like Joanna,
1:03:50
was known for treating Jennifer like a big
1:03:52
sister and being very, you know, being there
1:03:54
for her even though they were twins,
1:03:57
not older sister, younger sister. She
1:04:01
was also known to be very doting to the
1:04:03
neighborhood kids in similar ways that Joanna was and
1:04:05
both kids seemed to figure out
1:04:07
on their own that they like to show
1:04:10
affection through combing people's hair. One
1:04:15
of Jillian's hobbies that everyone knew
1:04:17
her for was putting on massive
1:04:19
elaborate plays with costumes and set
1:04:22
deck. Just
1:04:25
like Joanna. And Jillian
1:04:27
later even said that she had visions of
1:04:29
playing with her brothers in a house that
1:04:31
she never lived in before and when she
1:04:33
described things like the furniture she can
1:04:36
even describe the gardens and the orchard
1:04:38
nearby and the neighborhood it ended
1:04:40
up being the house that the family lived in before
1:04:42
the twins were born. Wow.
1:04:45
In the 1960s multiple outlets
1:04:49
started talking about the twins and
1:04:51
the Pollock's church criticized the family
1:04:53
for their story. How could
1:04:55
you believe in reincarnation? Blah blah blah and
1:04:57
the Pollock's ended up having to leave the church
1:04:59
because it was so intense. Wow.
1:05:03
But as adults Jillian and Jennifer slowly
1:05:05
remembered less and less of their past
1:05:07
lives which is another indicator that maybe
1:05:09
it really was reincarnation because they say by
1:05:11
like five you start kind of living it.
1:05:13
Yeah. And by it by adulthood
1:05:15
they had no memories left of
1:05:18
that time. See
1:05:20
that that to me is pretty convincing because like
1:05:22
if he was trying to keep it up this
1:05:25
whole time like keep talking about the doll that
1:05:27
you know. Yeah. Like they
1:05:29
wouldn't have kind of forgotten everything. Also
1:05:32
if he didn't say anything until they were 13 that
1:05:34
it sounds like he let
1:05:36
like eight years pass before he said
1:05:38
anything. He let it. Right. True true.
1:05:41
But this is where I also say a lot of
1:05:43
people believe this could be a hoax because maybe not
1:05:45
even an intentional hoax but they might just be
1:05:48
you know scraping
1:05:50
the bottom for for some sort of coincidence
1:05:53
wherever they can find it to help them
1:05:55
grieve their own children. So a
1:05:57
lot of people say maybe John lied about never
1:05:59
mentioning reincarnation. or they literally had older
1:06:01
brothers who could have said something to them. I
1:06:05
mean, the story was huge at the time, so neighbors
1:06:07
could have said it in passing by just seeing them.
1:06:11
Brothers could have also told them the
1:06:13
names of the dolls or told them
1:06:15
memories that they had with their other
1:06:18
sisters. The mom could have been
1:06:20
the one that combed their hair a certain way,
1:06:22
so all four of the girls showed affection that
1:06:24
way. All the kids have – all
1:06:27
kids have an ability to be very doting
1:06:29
and sweet, and they all put on plays.
1:06:32
They could be scared of cars, especially if the parents
1:06:34
are scared of cars now around their kids. They could
1:06:36
have rubbed up on them. That's
1:06:39
a really good point. And
1:06:41
so the parents could have just primed
1:06:43
these kids forever without even noticing it. I mean,
1:06:45
John was literally praying for his daughter to be
1:06:47
reincarnated, so I don't know if they were as
1:06:50
subtle as they think they were. But
1:06:54
this could have – it
1:06:57
would be interesting if it were
1:06:59
true, and I
1:07:01
wasn't there. Maybe it is true. But
1:07:04
this could also all be side effects
1:07:06
of grieving parents kind of transferring their memories
1:07:09
onto their daughters. And
1:07:12
one theory which was interesting
1:07:14
was maternal impressions, which is
1:07:16
literally that while she was pregnant, she
1:07:18
might have thought so much about her
1:07:20
daughters. She might
1:07:22
have – Florence might have thought so much
1:07:24
about Joanna and Jacqueline, that while pregnant, the
1:07:26
memory is almost like generational
1:07:29
trauma onto the other
1:07:31
babies. Right. Well, and there's also
1:07:34
that idea of trauma
1:07:37
within the – trauma in utero.
1:07:39
And I mean, I imagine having
1:07:41
just lost two kids, that trauma, that
1:07:44
was probably ongoing. And
1:07:46
so they say you can pass
1:07:48
that through DNA. So who knows, maybe if
1:07:50
she – like, for example, the phobia of
1:07:52
the car maybe with something while she was
1:07:55
pregnant, maybe that got – I
1:07:57
mean, I think that's also a very new – They
1:08:00
are any so I don't know. Too much about it,
1:08:02
but I'm yeah, there's a lot I mean,
1:08:04
but even that alone would be really fascinating
1:08:07
is that somehow was passed in utero. Or
1:08:09
it's even, just like, psychologically,
1:08:11
the store is fascinating. Yeah.
1:08:14
So. Of
1:08:16
the only thing we know for sure. Is
1:08:19
that we may never know for her. Ah,
1:08:23
semester A Polish twins are
1:08:25
the was that? Oh. Heck
1:08:27
from the heck. Some rebirth as another
1:08:30
name for them. Hexham
1:08:32
Rebirth of hey I swear
1:08:34
to God that. Where
1:08:37
have I heard this? Snow
1:08:39
Lore? Law. That's
1:08:41
where I've heard it. Lore Wow. and
1:08:43
that was really well done and so
1:08:46
fucking creepy. And you know how much
1:08:48
I'm fascinated by reincarnation and. You.
1:08:50
Know obviously the. Desire.
1:08:53
For your children like that you know
1:08:55
that was clearly born out of Greece
1:08:57
and his fascination already with the with
1:08:59
reincarnation. But then Elsa makes you wonder
1:09:01
like maybe as a kid there was
1:09:03
something in him that new local. He
1:09:06
would experience the ninety me. Like. Maybe
1:09:09
it wasn't that his fascination with reincarnation
1:09:11
like led to this scenario. Like maybe
1:09:13
it was the other way around. Like.
1:09:15
Ya how? he knew that would affect him one day. So
1:09:17
he got really. I mean, even like
1:09:20
to think about. Like. One
1:09:22
of the girls used to always say
1:09:24
i'll never be a lady, I'll never
1:09:26
grow Yeah yeah like again it's like
1:09:28
on the some both sides of the
1:09:31
timeline hit they were able thirty cents
1:09:33
each other or something. Yes, all my
1:09:35
all a goose can my gosh. As
1:09:37
such a creepy story dude you did
1:09:39
a very good job of telling and
1:09:41
you. Have you him? For.
1:09:45
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When. Else and isn't around on such a piece of garbage.
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i'm literally just I'm
1:12:00
in the same pajamas. I haven't left my apartment
1:12:02
in like three days. I'm eating a box of Nilla
1:12:05
wafers It's all kind of keeping me alive these
1:12:07
days Man
1:12:09
I Bad
1:12:12
I was gonna say I get that
1:12:14
way too when you're like one
1:12:16
boy's gone when blaze is
1:12:18
not around What's the first thing? How
1:12:21
what's the first way your behavior changes? I? Immediately
1:12:25
start ordering poke bowls like
1:12:27
daily Like
1:12:29
door dash like I just order like sushi
1:12:33
He wouldn't want sushi It's just like we don't really
1:12:35
like we'll order every now and then but like when
1:12:37
he's out of town like it's not his Like
1:12:41
poke and like all that is not his
1:12:43
favorite thing so we don't usually soap. It's like
1:12:45
my favorite thing So that's definitely
1:12:47
and then also I just do nothing I clean
1:12:49
nothing. I do nothing I just become like the
1:12:52
ultimate slob the place looks like
1:12:54
a mess current like Allison be having a full-blown panic
1:12:56
attack I mean it Like
1:13:00
it looks it doesn't look as bad as a
1:13:02
place that like deserves to have roaches But definitely
1:13:04
looks more like if you walked into our place
1:13:06
today versus any other time you'd be like Oh, I
1:13:08
kind of get why you've roaches like it Just it
1:13:10
looks kind of like maybe you need to pick some
1:13:12
some your clothes up off the living room floor Why
1:13:14
are they there? You know? Oh? Yeah,
1:13:17
I mean listen To
1:13:20
me that's a normal Tuesday that my house
1:13:22
looks like that on clean days, but I
1:13:25
do understand I
1:13:27
literally don't know how my clothes get out there
1:13:29
I like there's literally just listen I I follow
1:13:32
some accounts where they're like these are where all my
1:13:34
pop bras end up But it's like on the kitchen
1:13:36
counter on that like I don't know you know you
1:13:38
just move around also you have just like a one
1:13:42
Thing like I've three floors my shit still
1:13:44
ends up somehow up in
1:13:46
blazes off it I'm like why are my socks
1:13:48
in blazes off? So I don't know as much as
1:13:50
I want as much as I want a
1:13:52
bigger space I'm like I know it would just
1:13:55
give me more room to be a filthy
1:13:57
a filthy and it's oh Well
1:14:00
I'm the problem is. So
1:14:02
far it's pretty contains release. The living Room.
1:14:04
But I'm still amazed. I'm like, how did my shirt and
1:14:06
appear? What was I doing? mid? It's taking my shirt
1:14:09
off and by myself in the middle of the
1:14:11
day. Not break it off your living room. I.
1:14:14
Don't know how we got there though, I just it's
1:14:16
always a mystery. I feel like I walk around them
1:14:18
slake. Couldn't. Tell you how to how it
1:14:20
came to. Be say where I think I think
1:14:22
that's more normal than you realize. I think
1:14:24
that's pretty standard. You know, like sometimes I
1:14:26
play the game or well, I don't play.
1:14:28
Other people play what's the proceeds personal? Pull
1:14:30
out like a bottle of to Lula and
1:14:32
we like what says i'm like I'm never
1:14:34
going. To come from another i landed lane
1:14:36
of their I mean. I know I put it
1:14:39
there. I just don't know why are when. I
1:14:41
do. You like to think that maybe it's more normal
1:14:43
than I realized but also maybe we surround ourselves to
1:14:45
purchase these types of people say maybe it's just you
1:14:47
and me and were just like sick in the head
1:14:50
and I'm trying to convince us it's normal You know
1:14:52
a couple attack very well be also for has most
1:14:54
diverse and on and but. Yeah, I'm.
1:14:57
Anyway, okay so you ready for story? The.
1:15:00
Urban thousand percent of. Also.
1:15:02
Jokingly that in right that find that we talk
1:15:04
about being sobs. I. Think we talk about
1:15:06
much worse normally. so. Okay I will make
1:15:08
Sarkozy started the conversation I didn't like either Be
1:15:11
like that was for. Your. Ears
1:15:13
only. Okay, So. Everybody's
1:15:15
after this nice interlude. I have a
1:15:17
story for you. This
1:15:19
is the story of Carry
1:15:22
Peter Rasmussen Ak a The
1:15:24
Chameleon Killer. Who.
1:15:26
Know So I want to add
1:15:29
that's the sinister hood gals
1:15:31
talked about this story on like
1:15:33
upset fifty something. of their podcast so.
1:15:35
I've listened to it there as well. And.
1:15:38
Then overall because I just like all these
1:15:40
places are definitely worth checking out on all
1:15:42
these sources. Also. There's
1:15:45
an entire podcast called The Bear. Brooke
1:15:47
Murders Com which. Part
1:15:50
is an incredibly well done a
1:15:52
podcast series and I would recommend
1:15:54
it. I listen to it ages
1:15:56
ago, so it's one of those
1:15:59
things where. I was researching this story and
1:16:01
going, why do I know about
1:16:03
this? Oh, right. I listened to, I like
1:16:05
binged an entire podcast about just this story.
1:16:08
Um, so anyway, it's worth
1:16:10
listening to cause you can kind of watch it.
1:16:12
It's sort of like serial where you can like
1:16:14
see it kind of unfolding in real time as
1:16:17
they're getting clues and it's very cool. So
1:16:19
I'm going to do my best to
1:16:21
cover it from my perspective, but, uh,
1:16:23
just, if you want more of the
1:16:25
story, that is where you should go. So
1:16:28
Terry Peter Rasmussen. He was born in
1:16:30
Denver, Colorado, December 23rd, 1943. And
1:16:35
we don't know a lot about his early
1:16:37
life, his early experiences, childhood, uh, what his
1:16:39
family was like, but it's
1:16:42
almost like no news, maybe it means
1:16:44
good news, maybe like, um, maybe
1:16:46
just nothing to report. There
1:16:48
was one story, just kind
1:16:50
of a, just kind of a dude, you know,
1:16:53
there was one story I heard, um, on
1:16:55
Bear Brook where he had, he had been
1:16:57
cutting a watermelon, um, at a, at a
1:17:00
picnic or something with, with a family gathering
1:17:02
at a family gathering and some, one of the
1:17:04
other kids like made a mat
1:17:06
or said something that picked him off and he
1:17:08
went chasing after him with this big knife. And
1:17:11
apparently it was so startling and upsetting to
1:17:14
the family that they like knew something
1:17:16
was wrong at that point. Um,
1:17:18
so there must've been some signs at the
1:17:20
very least. Uh, but
1:17:23
overall, like, you know,
1:17:25
that he did wasn't in trouble. There wasn't anything like
1:17:27
big that we can point to, um, besides
1:17:30
some anecdotes like that. So
1:17:33
his family moved to Arizona when he was
1:17:35
young and Terry attended elementary school and high
1:17:37
school in Phoenix. He dropped
1:17:39
out his sophomore year, which was 1960 and
1:17:41
enlisted in the Navy in 1961. He
1:17:45
trained and worked as a naval electrician until
1:17:47
he left the military in 67. And
1:17:51
now after his discharge, Terry relocated
1:17:53
to Hawaii because his parents
1:17:55
had a shoe shop there. Oh,
1:17:58
okay. Of course,
1:18:00
he moved his parents to work. Sorry.
1:18:04
Important question. Important
1:18:06
question. Please go ahead. Do you
1:18:09
think that in
1:18:11
the 1960s, that they still called themselves
1:18:15
cobblers, or do you think he was just like
1:18:17
a shoe store owner?
1:18:20
Trying to find the, I'm trying to find the conversation where
1:18:22
I can before we get to the sad stuff. I
1:18:25
think a cobbler makes shoots.
1:18:29
Did his dad not make shoes or was it
1:18:31
like a salesman? No, they just owned a shoe
1:18:33
store. Okay. In my
1:18:35
mind, I was like, damn, he's a
1:18:37
Hawaiian cobbler. That's crazy. Okay. No,
1:18:40
I think a Hawaiian
1:18:42
cobbler is pineapple coconut layered with French
1:18:44
cake. No, I'm kidding. But that
1:18:46
sounds lovely. No, I
1:18:49
think it was just a shoe store.
1:18:52
Okay. That makes it less interesting.
1:18:54
But okay. Yeah. I think, I mean,
1:18:56
who knows? Maybe it was a fucking shoe
1:18:58
carnival for all I know. But
1:19:00
they basically owned a shoe store.
1:19:03
Imagine if a shoe carnival called
1:19:05
themselves cobblers. Imagine
1:19:10
if a cobbler called their store the carnival, and
1:19:13
then you went there and you were
1:19:15
like, this is not as fun as I was expecting. Okay, that's
1:19:17
a really good point. Yeah. Imagine if
1:19:19
a shoe store called itself the carnival. Wait, they do.
1:19:21
And it still doesn't make sense. Yeah.
1:19:24
One time I sent my mom a reel
1:19:27
or to talk about like, oh, me walking
1:19:29
through walking down the aisle at Payless
1:19:31
Shoe Store so my mom can see if these sneakers
1:19:33
fit me. And I sent it to my mom and
1:19:35
she goes, I didn't take you to Payless. I
1:19:38
took you to shoe carnival. And I was like, what
1:19:40
the fuck is the difference? Anyway, that's
1:19:42
like truly the day. That's a
1:19:44
kind of a thing my mom would say it seems these
1:19:46
days where you just don't ever get a straight answer from
1:19:48
them. It's like no one asked what the store was. Let's,
1:19:51
yeah, I don't remember that being pertinent.
1:19:54
So the conversation, get it together. So
1:19:57
in Hawaii, after he moves there, he meets his first.
1:20:00
They are married in July 1968, and
1:20:03
he moved there in 1967. So
1:20:06
this was like a very quick engagement,
1:20:08
like a short engagement. And
1:20:11
apparently, which you can probably guess based on
1:20:13
the content of this podcast, Terry was not
1:20:15
an easy man to be married to. It
1:20:17
seems like pretty early on they had quite
1:20:19
a bit of conflict in the marriage, though
1:20:22
we don't have a lot of detail. In
1:20:25
1969, the couple moved back to
1:20:27
Terry's home in Arizona, and that
1:20:29
is where Terry began working in
1:20:32
his trade as an electrician. Okay. That
1:20:35
same year, incidentally, his wife gave birth
1:20:38
to their twin daughters. So we got
1:20:40
a couple more twins today. Interesting.
1:20:42
The family relocated in 1970
1:20:45
to Redwood City, California, where Terry continued to
1:20:47
work as an electrician. And
1:20:50
while they were living in Redwood City, they welcomed
1:20:52
their third child to the Rasmussen family, and this
1:20:54
was a baby boy. So
1:20:56
in 72, the Rasmussen's had a
1:20:59
fourth child, this time a girl,
1:21:01
and their relationship of the parents
1:21:03
was deteriorating. They separated
1:21:06
the same year that their fourth child
1:21:08
was born, though neither filed for divorce.
1:21:12
It is worth noting, by the way, and Saoirse
1:21:14
made this note, which I was thankful
1:21:17
for, that the first no-fault divorce law
1:21:19
was signed in California in
1:21:21
1969, and this made
1:21:24
it more possible for women to
1:21:26
divorce their husbands. So basically, before
1:21:28
1969 in California, it was incredibly
1:21:31
difficult to divorce – as
1:21:33
a woman to divorce your husband. But
1:21:37
even though this was signed into law in 1969 and we're
1:21:39
in 1972, there were still a lot of complications. Like,
1:21:44
for example, a lot of banks denied
1:21:47
women their own bank accounts without a
1:21:49
husband's signature, and that
1:21:52
went on through the mid-'70s. Same
1:21:54
with mortgages, credit cards, loans. So
1:21:56
it was very difficult financially to –
1:22:00
live, you know, divorced in
1:22:02
the 70s and not always,
1:22:04
but in some circumstances. And
1:22:06
so, you know, we don't know why
1:22:09
they didn't file for divorce, but it's
1:22:11
possible that could have been one of the reasons.
1:22:13
It's just speculation. Sure. She could have been like just stuck.
1:22:15
Just stuck. Just like, no, yeah, I just
1:22:17
don't want to do the paperwork and need
1:22:20
to, I don't know,
1:22:23
sign permission to get a bank
1:22:25
account. So regardless,
1:22:28
she and Terry did get back together eventually
1:22:30
and they moved back
1:22:32
to Phoenix in 1973, where Terry
1:22:34
now works both as an electrician
1:22:36
and in a shoe store. So
1:22:39
he's really just like, he's a
1:22:41
cobbler. He's a cobbler. He's a cobbler.
1:22:45
Circling back to all these old hobbies
1:22:47
of his, all these old jobs. So
1:22:51
although we don't know the personal details of what
1:22:53
was going on in their marriage, we do know
1:22:55
they were struggling. And in 1975, Perry was arrested
1:22:57
in Phoenix for aggravated
1:23:01
assault. And not long after that,
1:23:03
his wife took all four children
1:23:05
and left him. So
1:23:08
in December of 1975, that by the way happened in June,
1:23:10
just to remind
1:23:13
you, and so now we're in December.
1:23:15
So it was about six months. He
1:23:18
shows up to visit
1:23:21
his family unannounced. Oh, the
1:23:23
wife and three kids, or the ex-wife,
1:23:25
I guess, and three kids. And
1:23:28
I'm sorry, four kids now, jeez. Okay, so
1:23:30
he goes to visit his family that he
1:23:32
has not seen. And that does not want him.
1:23:35
Okay. That does not want him. He
1:23:37
shows up unannounced, accompanied by
1:23:39
a random woman. Now,
1:23:42
it's speculated that perhaps he was just trying to
1:23:45
show off like, well, I don't need you. I've
1:23:47
got a new woman, you know, that kind of
1:23:49
thing. We're not really sure.
1:23:51
But he showed up at their doorstep. He
1:23:53
told his family he was living in
1:23:55
Ingleside, Texas. And this, they
1:23:58
were like, okay. Bye.
1:24:01
And that was the last time Terry Rasmussen's
1:24:04
wife and children ever saw him. Oh, man.
1:24:06
And their divorce would be finalized
1:24:08
in 1978, two or three years later. So
1:24:12
that was the last that they kind of – that
1:24:15
was their official parting ways, that first
1:24:17
– I say first – he
1:24:19
word first, family, his first family. Okay. No
1:24:21
dead. So, yeah, you get the hint. Next,
1:24:26
Terry made his way to New
1:24:28
Hampshire, and he adopted a new
1:24:30
moniker. He was now
1:24:32
going under the name Bob Evans.
1:24:36
Like the restaurant? Okay. I
1:24:39
was waiting for that because every podcast I listened
1:24:41
to did not mention it. And I thought, well,
1:24:44
we're going to mention it, obviously. No
1:24:48
heat to sinisterhood. And the other
1:24:50
podcast I listened to, I'm sure you are being
1:24:52
very professional, but I have to talk about the
1:24:54
breakfast joint for a moment. I fucking love hot
1:24:56
ovens. Yeah. So
1:24:58
apparently, Saoirse also knew our
1:25:00
dumbasses would immediately discuss this
1:25:03
because they put this side
1:25:05
note in, which says, the
1:25:08
Bob Evans farm and restaurant business
1:25:10
began major expansion in 1953. So
1:25:14
please remember that this is happening in like 78-ish. Right.
1:25:17
So he's not Bob Evans of the Bob
1:25:19
Evans fame. No, no.
1:25:21
And they're commercial campaigns throughout
1:25:24
the decade and afterwards. So
1:25:26
he basically – the
1:25:28
reason I say that is because that
1:25:31
was already a popular chain. It's
1:25:34
not like, oh, he just picked a random name and then
1:25:36
later it became a restaurant. Like for
1:25:38
decades, for like at
1:25:40
least two and a half decades, this place has
1:25:43
already been around nationwide.
1:25:46
It's a very odd name, in my opinion,
1:25:48
to pick like the name of a restaurant,
1:25:50
but whatever. Okay. So he – it's
1:25:52
an interesting choice, as Saoirse wrote. So
1:25:55
for years, Terry or
1:25:57
Bob Evans would travel the country under false
1:25:59
names. aliases, terrorizing
1:26:01
families wherever he went, but it
1:26:03
would take decades for anybody to
1:26:05
finally put together who Terry really
1:26:07
was and all that he had
1:26:10
done. So
1:26:12
now we do a little star
1:26:14
wipe. We move to a new spot,
1:26:16
a new setting. Oh. Our
1:26:20
new character is Jesse Morgan, who grew
1:26:22
up in Bear Brook Gardens, which is
1:26:24
a small trailer community in Allentown, New
1:26:27
Hampshire, surrounded by the forest of Bear
1:26:29
Brook State Park. Okay.
1:26:31
At over 10,000 acres of land,
1:26:33
Bear Brook is New Hampshire's largest
1:26:35
developed state park, popular for hiking,
1:26:38
camping, fishing, mountain biking, et cetera.
1:26:40
Today, there are over 40 miles of trail.
1:26:43
The park has always been majorly forested and
1:26:45
with so much to do on the beaten
1:26:48
path, there are secluded parts of the park that
1:26:50
are like much more remote and don't
1:26:52
get much traffic. So
1:26:55
Jesse and his friends would often play
1:26:57
hide and seek on four wheelers. Uh,
1:26:59
some kids would hide like out in
1:27:01
the expanse of the forest and the
1:27:03
seekers would then drive around on ATVs
1:27:05
looking for them. So
1:27:07
in summer of 1985, Jesse and
1:27:09
his friends were out and about
1:27:12
playing their usual games when they
1:27:14
came across a big metal barrel.
1:27:17
It was a rusted blue 55
1:27:20
gallon steel drum in the middle
1:27:22
of the remote wilderness. Hey,
1:27:25
firm pass. Hey,
1:27:28
that's not good. Exactly.
1:27:30
Like that feels actually kind of fake. That feels,
1:27:33
if I got that script sent to me by
1:27:35
someone who wanted to make a horror movie, I'd
1:27:37
be like, that's too obvious. You have to, it
1:27:39
doesn't feel natural. Too natural.
1:27:41
Too unnatural. Too
1:27:44
unnatural. And so guess what they did
1:27:46
cause their kids open it
1:27:48
up, obviously. And they found it up, they'd open up the
1:27:50
fucking barrel, right? So they, they try to open it up
1:27:53
and all they can't really get it
1:27:55
open fully. They're, they do notice a
1:27:57
terrible smell is emanating from this. barrel.
1:28:01
And they managed to tip it over
1:28:04
while they're trying to open it
1:28:06
up. And they notice a liquid
1:28:08
begin seeping out. And Jesse being
1:28:11
a child described it as what
1:28:13
he thought was rotten milk. Oh,
1:28:18
oh, you got me back after that story I
1:28:20
told you today. Oh, I'm
1:28:22
glad because you deserved it. Here's the
1:28:24
thing, though, like, I was a rambunctious
1:28:28
teenager in the middle of the woods quite
1:28:30
often. And if I
1:28:32
found a reason to explore, you know, back before
1:28:34
there were phones, you just had to make fun with what
1:28:36
you had. And sometimes there's a steel drum full of a
1:28:38
dead body. But if
1:28:41
I ever found a
1:28:44
container, and now my friends and I are
1:28:46
like, gung ho about opening this thing, and
1:28:48
that's gonna be our fun for the day. The
1:28:51
second it smelled, I was never interested
1:28:53
enough to keep going. I'd be
1:28:55
like, you were like, I'm out of here. I
1:28:57
was like, fun game till I can't breathe. All
1:28:59
of a sudden, I don't want to be so
1:29:02
things. Yeah, especially like if it
1:29:04
smells like, I mean, the smell
1:29:06
of death is like a very specific smell. And
1:29:08
I see why someone would
1:29:10
say something like bad milk, because it's
1:29:12
I mean, just such a horribly
1:29:14
potent smell, like, and
1:29:16
it's like decomp and it's Yeah.
1:29:19
And then liquids pouring out of it now. Oh my god. And
1:29:21
I know one of them was touching that liquid with their bare
1:29:23
hands. I know. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.
1:29:25
Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. They were like,
1:29:27
what is this? And they probably touched it and smelled their hands
1:29:29
being like, I don't know what this is. Oh my god. Oh
1:29:32
my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. The thought makes me
1:29:34
want to scream. That's
1:29:36
horrific. Okay,
1:29:40
going. I'm glad
1:29:42
you find this horrifying and compelling because
1:29:44
the if if anybody else does also
1:29:46
the bare brick podcast goes into like
1:29:48
great detail about the kids like finding
1:29:50
the barrel and all this and because
1:29:53
it's like a well documented story. So
1:29:55
definitely go listen to that if you want to hear the
1:29:57
actual interviews and like first person accounts of all this. But
1:30:00
yeah, so they, you know, their kids
1:30:02
are thinking like, oh, I don't know, this is just
1:30:04
something gross in the woods. And they're like, ew, it
1:30:06
stinks. So they hop on their four wheelers and they
1:30:08
just head out. It wasn't
1:30:11
that it wasn't until a few months
1:30:13
later that a man was out hunting.
1:30:15
Yep. A man was out hunting
1:30:17
in that same area on November 10 1985 when
1:30:19
he found this same barrel.
1:30:24
But this time, as he examined it
1:30:26
and looked a little closer, he noticed
1:30:28
what appeared to be human bones coming
1:30:30
out of the partially opened
1:30:32
container. Which like,
1:30:34
it's so sad to think that like,
1:30:38
if that's like your loved one and
1:30:40
like someone almost discovered them, I know,
1:30:42
months ago, and then and then just
1:30:44
kept sitting there for months. Yeah, yeah,
1:30:47
it makes it extra sad. And I think the kids
1:30:49
who are now obviously adults have had
1:30:51
to kind of come to grips with that, you know,
1:30:54
yeah, that they didn't do anything or say anything. But
1:30:56
it's also the fact that they were like, you didn't
1:30:58
know. Yeah, I mean, the fact they were
1:31:00
just like, fucking around with like, like playing
1:31:02
around a container. And like, they're like,
1:31:04
they're little, they don't know, they don't
1:31:06
know that people hide dead bodies in a park yet.
1:31:08
You know, that's something you learn now
1:31:11
when the other man finds it and tells you
1:31:13
and you're traumatized for the rest of your life.
1:31:15
So, you know, yeah, you were young and naive
1:31:17
briefly when you found the barrel the first time.
1:31:21
So yeah, it's too bad.
1:31:23
So he, of course, this guy, the
1:31:25
hunter realizes quickly that something is very
1:31:28
wrong. So he calls the police from
1:31:30
the Bearbrook Gardens community and the responding
1:31:32
officer walks right out and
1:31:34
opens up the barrel and
1:31:38
the plastic bag inside it
1:31:40
and is shocked to discover
1:31:42
the human remains of
1:31:45
two people in the barrel.
1:31:47
Two. Oh my god. Two. The
1:31:50
first being an adult woman who is somewhere
1:31:52
between her 20s and 30s. And
1:31:55
the second is a young girl between
1:31:58
ages eight and 10. Oh,
1:32:00
were they related? Oh my god, were they related? Oh
1:32:04
my god. We'll get to
1:32:06
it. So the remains were largely decomposed,
1:32:08
but investigators were able to determine that
1:32:10
they both suffered lethal blunt force trauma
1:32:12
to the head, and that was
1:32:14
presumably how they had passed. There
1:32:16
was nothing inside the barrel that could point to
1:32:19
their identities, and because only
1:32:21
a few thousand people called Allentown,
1:32:23
New Hampshire, home, there were
1:32:25
no outstanding missing persons cases, and so they really
1:32:27
weren't sure who this could be. Police
1:32:31
began going door to door asking residents
1:32:34
for anything unusual they may have seen,
1:32:36
any missing family or friends in another
1:32:38
town who maybe could be these missing
1:32:40
– who matched the description of these
1:32:43
bodies, anything that they could find
1:32:45
to point them in the right direction. But
1:32:48
unfortunately, they got nowhere, and eventually a
1:32:50
local business donated a headstone so that
1:32:52
they could at least lay the child
1:32:54
and the woman who they assumed to
1:32:57
be the mother to rest,
1:32:59
because they said, even if we don't
1:33:01
find out who this is, we want to at least give them a
1:33:04
proper burial and give them the respect they
1:33:06
deserve, even if we don't know their names.
1:33:10
So they were buried without names, and
1:33:12
the years ticked by, and the
1:33:14
case went cold. They just had
1:33:16
no other angles to pursue. So
1:33:20
meanwhile, investigators in Allentown did not
1:33:23
know that this story was still
1:33:25
unfolding all the way across the
1:33:27
nation, 3,000 miles
1:33:29
away in Scotts Valley, California.
1:33:33
This is almost like a simultaneous part
1:33:37
of the case is going on all the
1:33:39
way across the nation in an RV park.
1:33:43
And in 1986, a
1:33:45
year after the burial discovery in New
1:33:47
Hampshire, a man named
1:33:49
Gordon Jensen moved to the RV
1:33:52
community here in Scotts Valley along
1:33:54
with his five-year-old daughter, Lisa. The
1:33:57
two of them lived in the small campground.
1:34:00
on the back of his pickup truck while
1:34:02
he worked as the neighborhood's general handyman. Lisa,
1:34:06
the daughter, was well known in the community.
1:34:08
She spent her days running around, playing with
1:34:10
the other kids, the other families while her
1:34:12
dad worked. But some
1:34:15
people, this makes my heart
1:34:17
hurt a lot. Oops, sorry, that
1:34:19
just hit me. Some people noticed that they
1:34:21
would hear Lisa crying in her camper at
1:34:23
night. And
1:34:26
yeah, and adults
1:34:28
started to notice that, like, Lisa seemed
1:34:31
underfed. And now, Gordon
1:34:33
wasn't giving her new clothes
1:34:35
or bathing her very often.
1:34:39
And when other parents asked
1:34:41
about, you know, where's the child's mother?
1:34:43
He told different stories about
1:34:45
how she had died. He told
1:34:47
different neighbors different things. He said she died
1:34:50
of cancer, then he told someone else she
1:34:52
died in a traffic accident. And
1:34:55
so nobody had a really clear understanding of what
1:34:57
had happened. But he framed it as like, oh,
1:34:59
we're just all in our lonesome after her mother
1:35:02
passed away tragically. And he can't
1:35:06
keep his stories straight, I guess. So
1:35:08
one day, Gordon finds
1:35:11
out that a neighbor of his, Catherine
1:35:14
and Richard Decker, they mentioned their daughter
1:35:16
has been having trouble conceiving and has
1:35:18
been trying to have a child. And
1:35:21
so Gordon says, hey, listen, Lisa
1:35:23
is a little girl.
1:35:26
And you know, you know her well, why don't like,
1:35:28
I'm heading out of town for about three weeks, why
1:35:31
don't you guys take
1:35:33
her under your wing for a couple weeks, your daughter can
1:35:35
kind of have like a trial run of having a little
1:35:37
kid in the house. And
1:35:40
you guys can watch her while I'm out of town, it's like
1:35:42
a win win. And so they say, you know, that's a great
1:35:44
idea. They drive Lisa
1:35:46
over to their daughter's house.
1:35:48
And, you know, they're like
1:35:50
bits of safe and loving home, we're going to take great
1:35:52
care of her until you come back. And
1:35:55
Gordon stayed behind. So Gordon
1:35:57
goes off on his three week trip. allegedly,
1:36:01
and he never comes back. Oh,
1:36:04
he just said, so see ya.
1:36:06
Well, okay, so should I
1:36:08
make guesses or should I keep quiet? You
1:36:12
can guess. Is
1:36:14
this also Terry slash Big Bob and
1:36:17
he has just ditched another family member?
1:36:20
Yeah. Okay, well, it
1:36:23
sounds like he's got, there's one thing he's
1:36:25
really good at and it's being a piece of shit.
1:36:27
Okay. Yeah, you know what, Em? You're
1:36:30
right, we do deserve to get, he does deserve that credit.
1:36:33
Yeah. Okay, great. He does
1:36:35
deserve the credit of being a terrible
1:36:38
person. So
1:36:40
Gordon says, yeah, I'll be back in
1:36:43
three weeks. Never fucking returns. And so
1:36:45
now that Lisa is with this kind
1:36:47
of like loving, protective, safe family, they
1:36:51
notice she starts displaying
1:36:53
behaviors common among abused
1:36:55
children. And they
1:36:58
think to themselves, okay, well, he hasn't come
1:37:00
back yet. Like what do we do? So
1:37:03
they seek professional assistance. They're trying
1:37:05
to contact Gordon. They're trying to
1:37:08
finalize an adoption, but like Gordon
1:37:10
is MIA. So they don't know
1:37:12
how exactly to handle this, but
1:37:14
he's gone. And so authorities get involved.
1:37:16
They start looking for this guy, Gordon,
1:37:18
who's abandoned his daughter. They go
1:37:21
around and since he was a handyman, interestingly, they
1:37:27
go around to the trailers that he
1:37:29
worked on and they were
1:37:31
able to pick up prints off of like, I
1:37:33
think a VCR that he had helped fix in
1:37:35
a different trailer. Yeah, so they
1:37:37
managed to get his fingerprints, thank God. And
1:37:40
I will say also, as this
1:37:42
was going on, they did
1:37:44
find out, they took her to
1:37:46
a doctor, of course, because she was kind
1:37:48
of clearly showing signs that things had been
1:37:50
going very badly. And it
1:37:53
turns out he had been sexually abusing her.
1:37:58
That's why it really, really... The really really
1:38:00
makes my stomach hurt. And
1:38:03
I get it now. A nice idea. He. Or she
1:38:05
was crying. I
1:38:08
really. I mean she was crying but yeah,
1:38:10
that? yep, I know. Now we know why,
1:38:13
Because I think I see. I just thought,
1:38:15
oh, she's just being neglected and. Which.
1:38:17
Is so by Yeah, not bad. It's bad.
1:38:19
but it almost. As like. And he did that.
1:38:22
On. Top of just fully neglecting her.
1:38:25
And so of course, like. They're.
1:38:29
Horrified. And now police definitely
1:38:31
want to find the second guys
1:38:33
because a he's apparently abandons his.
1:38:36
Small child. Secondly,
1:38:39
it's a A and then secondly,
1:38:41
whatever a be one two three.
1:38:44
He they also are like Whoa! This.
1:38:46
Fucking guy. Has.
1:38:49
Been. Molesting in the sexually
1:38:51
abusing the child. So we need to find
1:38:53
them. so that is when they're. Going door
1:38:56
to door to find fingerprints and they
1:38:58
are able to pull off a fingerprint
1:39:00
from. One of the neighbors I
1:39:02
think it was a Vcr if
1:39:04
I remember correctly. right?
1:39:07
Everyone Lisa is fucking five years
1:39:09
old like this is so sick
1:39:11
it's to so sick. Such.
1:39:15
A sweetheart. So she. Is.
1:39:18
Thank. God left with this. Good.
1:39:21
Family or A and he just
1:39:24
is out of her life. Thankfully.
1:39:27
So. They find his fingerprints. Finally I'm and
1:39:30
they run them through. This is some
1:39:32
and they match a name that. The
1:39:34
weird part is they don't match Gordon's
1:39:36
name. They match the name. Curtis.
1:39:38
Kimball. Oh God damn it. I'm. An
1:39:40
big bob. I
1:39:43
was waiting for you to say it and
1:39:45
then me say the lead of rename the
1:39:47
yeah this is the name that runs through
1:39:50
that comes up when they run them. Prince
1:39:52
is Curtis Kimball. And pretty
1:39:54
simple: had been arrested and a singer prints
1:39:56
were in the system after he was arrested
1:39:59
for a drunk. Driving incidents and
1:40:01
that it actually happened while Lisa
1:40:03
was in the vehicle. So the
1:40:05
authorities trying to track Gordon flush
1:40:07
Curtis as they know him down
1:40:09
had no way of knowing that
1:40:12
he had a third identity Bob
1:40:14
Evans and also affords identity Terry
1:40:16
Rasmussen. So a. Species, They're how much.
1:40:19
They don't even realize because they have this
1:40:21
Curtis guy in the system with his friends
1:40:23
are thinking oh, that's his original identity They
1:40:25
don't even know that he has to more
1:40:27
before that. So.
1:40:30
In Nineteen Eighty Eight, he is
1:40:32
finally captured and arrested because he's
1:40:34
driving a stolen vehicle. And
1:40:36
when they arrest him and asked
1:40:38
for his information he tells them
1:40:41
his name is Gerald Marker Men.
1:40:44
This may this he just come up with it on
1:40:46
the fly or like as I mean some of the
1:40:48
not he must he must. He literally probably looked across
1:40:50
the street, saw like eight Ninety Nine homestyle meals and
1:40:52
was like my name is Bob Evans. Know.
1:40:57
Now that like a how and a. Doctorate of and said
1:40:59
on the sub said. How else
1:41:01
could be recovering up with this shit like. Come
1:41:04
on I I I don't know but. Yeah, just
1:41:06
making shit up is making up. Name's left and right.
1:41:08
How do you even like? Keep up with. I.
1:41:10
Mean a name like. Mock. Are
1:41:12
men like you have to remember them? I feel
1:41:14
like that's not like. My. Name is.
1:41:18
Like by Eleven beloved.
1:41:20
Father maybe that's why he did bother them
1:41:23
For as he's like I can remember I
1:41:25
can remember Bob Evans like that one is
1:41:27
easy Yeah the something marker man I'm like
1:41:29
oh you either are getting overly confident or
1:41:32
of really desperate or both. Yeah.
1:41:35
Yeah and I will say also with
1:41:37
unlike the other ones with them with.
1:41:40
Gerald. Mater Men. He actually had a
1:41:42
social security number links to that name so
1:41:45
he had actually like. Baked.
1:41:47
A real identity. The site Not
1:41:49
just you know a name but
1:41:51
yesterday her mind paperwork. Yeah, so
1:41:53
his other aliases as Gordon and
1:41:55
Curtis were confirmed and he was
1:41:57
put in jail in prison for
1:42:00
a year and a half for
1:42:02
the child abandonment charges. And.
1:42:04
They actually which is kind of fucked
1:42:06
up and they talked about it on
1:42:09
sinister her. They dropped the. Ah,
1:42:12
they agreed to drop the. Sexual.
1:42:14
Assault or them all Station charges
1:42:17
against Lisa. Ah, and
1:42:19
then instead just put him away
1:42:21
for the child abandonment and. You
1:42:24
know of course like of out the way they
1:42:26
discuss the month and a are headed by Heather
1:42:28
said i'm sorry that Christie. Said. You
1:42:31
know, That. So fucked up like I
1:42:33
can't. Like. The fact that they were
1:42:36
just like drop the most nation charges and
1:42:38
do nothing even though they had evidence that
1:42:40
he was. Sexually. Abusing her. But
1:42:42
then Heather made a really good police. And
1:42:44
she's an attorney, so see you know. Knows
1:42:46
more than I do about this kind of thing.
1:42:49
but she made a really good point that like
1:42:51
there may have been a fear of. Him
1:42:54
getting away with it if. They.
1:42:57
Try to charge him with the more station. and
1:42:59
maybe Lisa as a small child wasn't. Ready
1:43:02
or willing to speak on the sand
1:43:04
or testify? You know, who knows. Maybe
1:43:06
there wasn't enough solid evidence And so
1:43:08
they just wanted him. To. Be put
1:43:10
away one way or another without that reasonable
1:43:13
doubt. So. You. Know I can
1:43:15
see it both ways, but it is
1:43:17
as very disheartening that they dropped the
1:43:19
child molestation charges now. Especially.
1:43:22
When it was pretty clear that that had
1:43:24
happened. I mean also, imagine going up and
1:43:26
being like oh so he just got to
1:43:29
get away with i just never got any
1:43:31
validation arm. Yeah, closure on that. Yeah, it
1:43:33
must be. A very odd feeling. Gotta
1:43:35
be extra them wilde of like.
1:43:39
Oh. Not only did I knock a validation
1:43:41
bowling actually did get validation and and they
1:43:43
like. Opted. To ignore it.
1:43:45
You. Know to do not to like dismiss it. Almost.
1:43:48
Yeah, yeah. Now. And so I
1:43:50
imagine that was very tough. But also
1:43:52
you know I can imagine. It.
1:43:54
would have probably also been very traumatizing for her to
1:43:56
go up on the stand and pressure on him he
1:43:58
announcer as a little kids I don't
1:44:02
know the details of all that. I just
1:44:04
– I think it's definitely worth noting because
1:44:06
I think it's perfectly reasonable to get kind
1:44:08
of up in arms. Why would they drop
1:44:10
that charge and not the abandonment
1:44:12
charge? Why would they not go after? So who
1:44:15
knows? I
1:44:18
just thought Heather made a good point about that, but in
1:44:20
any case, Lisa had
1:44:23
no legal guardian, and the
1:44:25
Deckers, despite treating
1:44:28
her as their own child, never officially
1:44:30
adopted her, and so they were forced
1:44:32
to surrender her into protective custody, and
1:44:34
Lisa's life once again was turned completely
1:44:36
upside down. And
1:44:39
meanwhile, literally less
1:44:41
than two years later, Terry is
1:44:44
released on parole in 1990, and
1:44:46
wouldn't you know it, he immediately
1:44:49
flees and becomes a fugitive. What?
1:44:52
I know. And Heather said, like, he
1:44:54
doesn't stay in contact with his PO?
1:44:56
What? It's like he
1:44:58
doesn't say – So how can he stay in
1:45:00
contact with his own fucking name for ten minutes? For
1:45:03
a family, I was going to say. It's like he
1:45:05
literally – Yeah, or family, right. He literally
1:45:08
refuses to do anything right, so it would be shocking
1:45:10
if he actually was a good citizen at the end.
1:45:13
A hundred percent. Like, he's literally doing
1:45:15
the opposite of everything he should be
1:45:17
doing, so I'm not surprised one tiny
1:45:19
bit. But yeah, he immediately flees when
1:45:22
he's released on parole, and he
1:45:24
would remain in hiding for a full
1:45:26
decade after this. We
1:45:29
are skipping from 1990 to the year 2000. Oh
1:45:33
my God, the future. And – oh my
1:45:35
God, we're in Y2K. What a time to
1:45:37
be alive. And
1:45:39
a new investigator is assigned to
1:45:41
get this, the Allentown,
1:45:43
New Hampshire barrel
1:45:45
cold case in the wood. Oh,
1:45:49
God. Yeah. So we're jumping back. We're star
1:45:51
wiping the other direction. We're going back to New
1:45:53
Hampshire. Where did you learn the word star wipe?
1:45:55
Because it is really – It just makes me
1:45:57
laugh. I mean, it makes sense what you're
1:45:59
talking about. By get it. But.
1:46:01
I like of thing I like across
1:46:03
the screen like so yeah yeah yeah
1:46:05
like transitioning to another same but i.
1:46:08
Know it's like a yeah, it's like an actual name
1:46:10
for. For. That as I said,
1:46:12
Yeah I do not know that Christine the yeah
1:46:15
I'm our family member when we would do like
1:46:17
a what are you calling Time effects. Called
1:46:19
Star what else you know? I would
1:46:22
give anything for seem to just have
1:46:24
a day in a computer lab. And.
1:46:27
Just make a powerpoint using
1:46:29
word art and. Man.
1:46:32
A like by say like as I do
1:46:34
mean in the yard. Ninety Ninety Nine may
1:46:36
have loopholes and one other. Than that, I
1:46:39
don't want it or like. We.
1:46:41
Should just do that, like, as we know,
1:46:43
time travels real and isolates, they'll let us
1:46:46
do like a quaint little adventure like that.
1:46:48
You know, heard anyone? Okay, but
1:46:51
imagine. One. Day when
1:46:53
time travel is more. Like.
1:46:55
You know we capitalism pompous. All
1:46:57
that was time travel. imagine of
1:46:59
self us. One
1:47:01
day you decide like you pick as the
1:47:03
pick a theme for the day and like
1:47:05
that's how it looks like you're and so
1:47:07
like over gonna go on like a food
1:47:10
torn tribe and stuff. I'm usually a time
1:47:12
top of the category so it's like by
1:47:14
want to go to a computer lab and
1:47:16
he spent every day like spending an hour
1:47:18
and a different decade doing the same thing
1:47:20
over and over on different technology will be so
1:47:22
fun and I go back to school in
1:47:24
two thousand forty five. And you're like
1:47:26
Here's my presentation here. They an
1:47:28
are We got that They are
1:47:30
finally got accept. That
1:47:32
is so fine. I can't wait for that. We're
1:47:34
going up so much fun! It be fine if
1:47:37
you have like use like the very first like.
1:47:39
Microsoft. Like Windows Ninety Five, or like we
1:47:41
go even further back. Like what was a
1:47:43
presentation before? You. Know what's this time of
1:47:45
it out on a typewriter? We do it every one
1:47:47
of the and then he gets too. Early to
1:47:49
thousands y two k with the big
1:47:52
bubble colorful Imax. Then you go on
1:47:54
the desk. When. You go to
1:47:56
like the first laptop I mean it would
1:47:58
be also actually so educational cousin. How
1:48:00
would. These. Kids these
1:48:02
days so ungrateful they have no
1:48:05
idea. Now make them fuckin' type
1:48:07
on a typewriter without messing up.
1:48:10
How like a perfect paper. And.
1:48:12
Then they'll be like wow I'm so glad I
1:48:14
have this thing say i I know as got
1:48:16
a bell check say be. Will. Call
1:48:18
it a lot. The.
1:48:21
Some it's I have a name but it's
1:48:23
something about like just learning to other like
1:48:25
what you can have. Let's call it the
1:48:27
air tour. Ah, Less.
1:48:38
Less less. I
1:48:41
don't think that's taken other than imagine
1:48:44
okay last he was I imagine if
1:48:46
you can ai a i am through
1:48:48
different time travel is because what if
1:48:51
you're someone. Who. Only.
1:48:53
Gets to live up to the year where there's
1:48:55
like the Big Apple I Max but we get
1:48:57
to live in an era with Macbook Pros. If
1:49:00
you could only like. Message. Each
1:49:02
other. From across the timelines and be like oh
1:49:04
I'm so glad I'm on your situation. Sounds like
1:49:06
a be really rough on Mac computers. Or dinner
1:49:08
and their be like hijacking jobs or
1:49:10
it's like hey person from like twenty
1:49:13
thirty. Could you actually take the subway a
1:49:15
lot faster for use a I compared if
1:49:17
I do not pay you fifty thousand dollars
1:49:19
for walks and then all of a sudden
1:49:22
why. You've. Got yourself a business.
1:49:24
And then you're like oh my gosh, I've heard
1:49:26
I've heard about N F T's can you send
1:49:29
a few my way of print them out Oh
1:49:31
my God. That's not how they work. Spirals very
1:49:33
quickly and so like oh you have. Any suggestions
1:49:35
on stocks for the future like you know,
1:49:37
Latin are. Like it immediately becomes like
1:49:39
some terrible things are going to happen. but
1:49:42
in theory it's really delightful and I absolutely
1:49:44
love the idea. I would love to live
1:49:46
in the first forty eight hours of that
1:49:48
time before and ruin Salute Li. just a
1:49:50
free for all like how fucking that we
1:49:52
would have m we would. It
1:49:55
would be a lawless slant Know much. It.
1:49:57
will be lawless in the best way for a
1:49:59
little bit and then it would be lawless and only
1:50:02
bad. And also at first it would
1:50:04
be really fun. Keep in mind too, I don't know
1:50:06
what the red tape is if like the government can
1:50:08
like blacklist certain days or years
1:50:10
that you just can't travel to, but like you
1:50:12
can skip them into further parts of the future
1:50:14
or something. But like imagine, because when I say
1:50:16
I would love to have those first 48 hours,
1:50:19
but time travel exists, you could have those first
1:50:21
48 hours over and over and over and over again.
1:50:24
Oh wait, that's so true. Unless
1:50:26
you only get like sick leave or something and
1:50:28
you only get certain days a year, like you only
1:50:31
get like an allotted amount of
1:50:33
time that you can travel,
1:50:35
time travel with. Use the time travel. It's
1:50:37
like, oh, I get two weeks that I'm going
1:50:39
to use for six years and
1:50:42
then I'll go back two weeks ago. I'm
1:50:45
gonna research this later. Okay,
1:50:47
you tell me what you're gonna look up. I
1:50:51
know you've researched time travel a lot, but
1:50:53
I feel like I need to
1:50:56
catch up to your knowledge level. So
1:50:59
that I can like really get in the
1:51:01
weeds with you on this. Cause I feel
1:51:03
that it would be possible and
1:51:06
I feel that it is. And I feel that you need
1:51:08
to research it. A damn thing. I think
1:51:10
you just need to hit that Delta eight or whatever you
1:51:12
were talking about and we'll come back to this. Oh,
1:51:15
the Delta, I was like, I was like,
1:51:19
okay, Delta, got it, Delta. Isn't it Delta eight? Is
1:51:21
that what you take? Yes,
1:51:23
Delta eight. Yes, sorry. I
1:51:25
thought you were talking about like
1:51:27
Spirit Airlines and I
1:51:29
was like, I don't think it's that kind
1:51:32
of travel, Em, but maybe I'm wrong. No,
1:51:34
it's that kind of travel, man. You know
1:51:36
what I'm saying? That kind of travel. Cerebral
1:51:39
travel, okay. So in any
1:51:41
case, let's get
1:51:43
back to this nonsense. We
1:51:46
time traveled to the year 2000. Oh,
1:51:49
right. In the
1:51:52
year 2000, a new investigator
1:51:54
is assigned to the cold
1:51:56
case of finding the barrel in Allentown,
1:51:58
New Hampshire. Bearbrook State
1:52:01
Park. So this new
1:52:03
investigator, he's going through, he's looking through cold
1:52:05
case, the files from this cold case and
1:52:07
he's like, is there anything that was missed,
1:52:09
you know, fresh eyes? And he
1:52:11
goes, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go
1:52:13
back to the spot where the barrels were found and
1:52:15
see like maybe is there, did we
1:52:17
miss anything? Is there like maybe some clue,
1:52:21
maybe even just for his own knowledge to
1:52:23
look around the area and feel like he
1:52:25
can picture it, visualize it? So
1:52:28
for whatever reason he decides to drive on down
1:52:30
there and he returns to the site where the
1:52:32
remains were discovered and now this had been 15
1:52:34
years ago that that barrel had been discovered.
1:52:37
So he starts walking around through
1:52:40
the woods and suddenly
1:52:42
he discovers
1:52:45
something that shocked him
1:52:47
to his core. He found a
1:52:50
second barrel. Shut the
1:52:52
fuck up, he's gone back to the scene of
1:52:54
the crime just as cold case has
1:52:56
opened it back up. Are you kidding me? But
1:53:00
wait, hold
1:53:03
that thought. So he discovers a
1:53:05
second barrel of the thin pipe
1:53:07
with plastic inside and
1:53:09
inside, by the way,
1:53:11
imagine you're just there for a cold case, like maybe there's
1:53:13
a shoelace I missed or something, like a
1:53:15
cigarette on the floor. And you get a
1:53:18
flaming, you get two more bodies?
1:53:21
Anyway, also like I can't like, again,
1:53:24
if I were reading a script
1:53:26
I'd be like this would not happen. Like
1:53:28
it wouldn't happen. That's ridiculous. It wouldn't
1:53:31
happen once and it certainly wouldn't
1:53:33
happen twice, 15 years apart, just
1:53:35
as the cold case opens up.
1:53:37
Like that's too perfect. So inside
1:53:40
this barrel are the skeletal remains
1:53:42
of two more victims, both, this
1:53:44
is very sad, young girls between
1:53:46
one and four years old. And
1:53:50
they too have been killed by blunt force
1:53:52
trauma to the head. However,
1:53:56
based on the rate of decomp, this
1:53:59
barrel had been there as long
1:54:01
as the other barrel had been there.
1:54:04
What? So this guy's playing a fucking game.
1:54:07
Was he just like, was
1:54:11
it stored somewhere and he dragged it out just to
1:54:13
fuck with him? What does this mean? It
1:54:15
was there all along. They just missed it. How
1:54:18
do you miss a whole barrel of bodies? Where
1:54:21
was it? I don't know. Was it in a cave? Like
1:54:23
what did they know? It was like a few, I think
1:54:25
a few hundred yards away, but it's just there was such
1:54:28
a, and you know, there's a lot of debate on this.
1:54:30
Like how could they have missed it? But
1:54:32
you know, and then the other argument is like,
1:54:34
well, this is a really heavily wooded area. And,
1:54:36
um, you
1:54:38
know, we didn't, we looked in this,
1:54:40
this many yards. We didn't look at,
1:54:43
you know, I don't know exactly where
1:54:45
everybody stands on this, but they somehow
1:54:47
have completely missed a fucking
1:54:49
second barrel of bodies nearby
1:54:52
and from the same murder
1:54:55
as the one from 18, 1985,
1:54:57
which now makes me think I would
1:54:59
be so damn paranoid about the
1:55:01
entire woodland acreage. I'd be like,
1:55:04
there's gotta be just drop points
1:55:06
everywhere. Oh, I hope they looked
1:55:08
again really thoroughly next time. Me too. Like,
1:55:10
I was like, if this happened a third time,
1:55:12
I would just lose. I'd leave
1:55:14
my job because I'm clearly not good at it.
1:55:16
Just, just tape. Yeah, exactly.
1:55:18
Like I'm seeing myself out. You don't
1:55:21
even need to fight me. Um, but
1:55:23
yeah, they, they basically discovered like, first
1:55:25
of all, no, it's not a recent
1:55:27
crime. So it couldn't be like a
1:55:30
copy cat serial killer who's like just
1:55:32
copying the same method. Um,
1:55:35
and it's not even recent
1:55:37
at all. It's the same. It indicated
1:55:39
that it happened when the other barrel
1:55:42
had been dropped there. So these two
1:55:44
children, these little girls were
1:55:46
victims of the 1985 murder and
1:55:48
the barrel had just been missed.
1:55:52
And thank God that this guy decided to
1:55:54
go back to the scene and like look
1:55:56
around because otherwise probably nobody would have ever
1:55:58
found it. or connected
1:56:00
it, but they did eventually find it,
1:56:02
thank God. And they felt this might
1:56:04
open up some new leads, you know,
1:56:07
now they have a mother of what
1:56:09
they presumed to be the mother and
1:56:11
three daughters rather than just
1:56:15
one mother, one daughter. So now
1:56:17
the town is like extra horrified because they've
1:56:19
already gone through this process of having a
1:56:21
mother daughter discovered in a barrel 15 years
1:56:23
ago. And now suddenly, wait, there's two more
1:56:25
children buried in the same way. And so
1:56:28
they look into it,
1:56:30
but once again, they cannot find any
1:56:33
missing persons reports aligned with like a
1:56:35
mother and three kids. So you
1:56:37
asked earlier about
1:56:40
who was related to whom. And I
1:56:42
will say DNA would eventually determine that
1:56:45
of the three children discovered in the
1:56:47
barrels, one child
1:56:49
was not related to the
1:56:52
other two children. Okay,
1:56:54
so one child had no DNA connection,
1:56:56
but then the three, three
1:56:58
of them were related the mother
1:57:00
and two children. Okay. But then
1:57:03
one child had
1:57:05
no DNA connection with the other three.
1:57:07
This makes me wonder, like, I
1:57:09
maybe you'll tell me eventually, but
1:57:11
like, it makes me think like, what was the
1:57:13
story to how they died? Like, it feels like
1:57:15
it was almost an impulsive hoops. I
1:57:17
didn't see this coming. And now I
1:57:20
have to hide the bodies versus like
1:57:22
an intentional, I'm gonna go be me
1:57:24
versus three people. And maybe
1:57:26
their friend or random other.
1:57:30
Yeah, I think you might
1:57:32
actually get some answers on that. Truly. I don't
1:57:35
have like a very solid answer. But I think
1:57:37
when you hear the rest of the story, you might like, get
1:57:40
an idea of okay, how it went down. Or
1:57:43
we can at least, you know, speculate. So,
1:57:47
so meanwhile, same year, 2000,
1:57:49
as the second barrels discovered, there's
1:57:51
a woman named on son June, and
1:57:54
she begins dating this guy named Larry
1:57:56
Vanna in Richmond, California. And on son
1:57:58
was born in South Korea,
1:58:00
July 31, 1957.
1:58:03
She graduated from Pacific Grove High School
1:58:06
in California. She got both a bachelor's
1:58:08
and graduate degree at the
1:58:10
University of California at Davis in
1:58:12
UC San Francisco. She
1:58:14
worked as a chemist and a medical
1:58:16
researcher for various pharmaceutical companies. Very smart
1:58:19
woman. She also worked at the City
1:58:21
of Hope Hospital in Los Angeles. She
1:58:23
was just a very well-loved person in
1:58:25
the community. She was friendly. She was
1:58:28
bubbly. Those friends
1:58:30
who do her described her as a
1:58:33
free spirit. She loved to travel and
1:58:35
learn about other people's cultures and
1:58:37
experiences. And her best
1:58:39
friend, her name was Renee Rose.
1:58:42
Now Renee had met Eun-sun in
1:58:44
a ceramics class and later described
1:58:46
Eun-sun as the closest friend she
1:58:48
ever had. They made pottery together
1:58:50
in a community center in Richmond,
1:58:53
California. And according
1:58:55
to Renee, Eun-sun's adventurous spirit
1:58:58
became a little more, how do
1:59:01
you call it, dimmed or
1:59:04
became less prominent when men
1:59:06
were around. She was shy around men.
1:59:08
You know, she'd be like very openly,
1:59:10
but timid. Yes, she was more timid
1:59:12
around men, but she
1:59:14
had always wanted love and
1:59:17
romance. She just like wished for that
1:59:20
romantic love, that connection. She wanted a love
1:59:22
story of her own, but now
1:59:24
she's in her early 40s. She
1:59:27
hadn't met the one. And
1:59:29
her friends, as they describe it, noticed that
1:59:31
she started kind of opening herself up to
1:59:33
men that she maybe wouldn't have
1:59:35
considered in the past, just
1:59:38
because she was kind of looking for a
1:59:40
relationship. And by that, her
1:59:42
friends meant she was kind of lowering
1:59:44
her standards. And some of the men
1:59:46
that she was meeting didn't quite treat
1:59:48
her the way that she deserved. And
1:59:51
as a friend, you know, we've all seen that. And
1:59:53
it's not a fun feeling to be in the
1:59:55
middle of a friend you
1:59:57
care so deeply about and then... trying
2:00:00
to protect them
2:00:02
but also to be like
2:00:05
girl you're dimming your light the bar does not
2:00:07
need to be in your light come on pick
2:00:09
it up pick it up love yourself great way
2:00:12
to put it but it's also hard
2:00:14
because you don't want to like alienate
2:00:16
them by pushing them away and you
2:00:18
know so it's a very hard
2:00:21
balance sure but either
2:00:23
way she met this guy Larry Vanna and in
2:00:25
2000 she introduces her
2:00:27
family and friends to this new
2:00:30
boyfriend and apparently nobody
2:00:32
fucking likes him immediately they they
2:00:34
do not appreciate him they don't
2:00:36
like his manners like apparently he's
2:00:38
just gross he's
2:00:41
very narcissistic very self involved I remember
2:00:43
there was one story about I believe
2:00:45
it was unsung sister who it
2:00:49
was either Renee her friend Renee her
2:00:51
sister opened the door like a holiday
2:00:53
I think Thanksgiving and said
2:00:56
like oh she thought unsung was so happy
2:00:58
to see her and then unsung introduced her
2:01:00
to her boyfriend Larry and this person said
2:01:02
I couldn't even shake his hand I've
2:01:05
never felt so just in
2:01:08
my gut like this is a bad
2:01:11
person like that's like primal fear you
2:01:13
know like she said she opened the
2:01:15
door and just thought I've
2:01:17
never looked someone in the eye and thought
2:01:19
like this is bad news and
2:01:22
apparently this was a running feeling
2:01:24
amongst her friends and family and
2:01:27
she really struggled with this because she was very
2:01:29
close with her friends and family and she wanted
2:01:31
them to like him but they sure did not
2:01:34
and he apparently would like sit at the table
2:01:37
and just like devour
2:01:39
food and then just like belch and
2:01:41
like not offer anybody
2:01:44
like he's almost trying to be gross yeah yeah apparently
2:01:46
he's just like a douchebag like he just shows up
2:01:48
and he's like I don't give a shit about you
2:01:50
or your family you know like he just seems like a just
2:01:53
a self involved shithead and
2:01:55
they're all like girl what are you doing like
2:01:57
you deserve so much better But
2:02:00
of course, as we've also seen with, I
2:02:02
think most people have, or at least, you
2:02:04
know, friends of
2:02:07
friends, Eun-sun quickly started to grow
2:02:09
distant from her friends and family. She
2:02:12
began speaking to them less and less. Some
2:02:15
sources say there was, you know,
2:02:17
an argument that took place and
2:02:19
Eun-sun left. We don't really
2:02:21
know, like left the holiday
2:02:24
party with Larry. We don't really
2:02:26
know. But either way, they
2:02:28
went off and her family
2:02:31
would never see her again. So
2:02:35
pretty quickly after this kind of
2:02:38
rocky introduction, Renee
2:02:41
was trying to get a hold of Eun-sun
2:02:45
because they're best friends and they used to
2:02:47
talk all the time. She
2:02:49
would call though and Larry would always
2:02:51
pick up and he always had a
2:02:53
different excuse as to why Eun-sun couldn't
2:02:55
speak to her. And
2:02:58
when Renee, as he
2:03:00
had hoped
2:03:02
would not happen, Renee continued
2:03:04
calling. Like she was not
2:03:07
going to be polite about it. She just kept calling
2:03:10
and saying, let me speak to her.
2:03:12
And of course, this was well before any
2:03:14
sort of tracking or cell phones
2:03:16
or... Yeah, but let's be
2:03:18
clear. It's not sure. She's a real one.
2:03:20
Like that's the holiday you need. It's like
2:03:23
get me her on the phone right now
2:03:25
or else. Like, you know what? She's also
2:03:27
so touching is like now if you look,
2:03:30
if you read the articles about Eun-sun, like
2:03:32
you can see pictures of Renee still giving
2:03:34
interviews about her and saying like she was
2:03:36
my best friend and she's born in the
2:03:38
50s. So
2:03:40
like probably 70 ish now. And
2:03:44
so, you know, it's just it's really it's
2:03:47
tragic, but it's like a beautiful thing. They had a
2:03:49
very strong bond. But she also and
2:03:51
she was, I'm assuming, one of the people who was
2:03:54
like, my primal instinct
2:03:56
has kicked in that this man is bad news
2:03:58
from the beginning. And now she's like... You
2:04:01
know what's so funny is like some people
2:04:03
have described him as like charming and like
2:04:06
disarming, but then a lot of people are
2:04:08
like, no, like he gives off
2:04:10
every red flag. So I wonder if some
2:04:12
people just like didn't
2:04:14
see it. I mean, Renee probably strikes me as someone who's
2:04:16
like, no, I'm going to
2:04:18
vet this one. Renee strikes me as your Renee.
2:04:21
Who's like, I know,
2:04:24
I know, but I'm like, I don't think
2:04:26
you do not. Renee was gonna like anything. Renee is such
2:04:28
a power. Also, by the way, Renee is such a powerful
2:04:30
name because also I think about like nae nae my boss.
2:04:33
She was also like that. Like I feel like
2:04:35
every Renee is a force
2:04:37
is like an understatement. It's like you
2:04:39
don't get even a chance to fuck
2:04:41
with a Renee. Like it's just not
2:04:43
gonna happen. Well, I've got
2:04:45
a Leona Renee down. I have
2:04:47
a Leona Renee downstairs and that is great. That's
2:04:49
your fault. You could have given her a name and
2:04:51
you said. I knew what I was doing. Let's be real. I
2:04:54
knew what I was doing.
2:04:57
So this Renee is being
2:05:01
a real Renee in the best way and she keeps calling
2:05:03
and she's like, she's like,
2:05:05
no, let me talk to Unsun
2:05:08
and he keeps saying, oh, actually, so he's coming
2:05:10
up with all these excuses, right? Suddenly
2:05:14
he starts telling her, oh, actually Unsun
2:05:16
doesn't love you anymore and doesn't want to speak
2:05:18
to you anymore and doesn't want to be your
2:05:20
friend. And
2:05:24
Renee went, I will literally go
2:05:26
over there and let you on fire. Just
2:05:28
fucking tell me. Literally Renee said, okay,
2:05:30
sure, guy. And
2:05:34
then said, how about I believe that when she
2:05:36
tells me to my face that she doesn't want to be
2:05:38
my friend? That's Renee for you. And
2:05:41
yeah, he's pissed off because he's like, she
2:05:43
will not drop it. So
2:05:46
she doesn't believe him obviously. And she says, I want
2:05:48
Unsun to tell me she's done with our relationship now
2:05:51
to my face or I'm calling the
2:05:53
sheriff immediately. And
2:05:56
Renee was like, I don't even need Unsun
2:05:59
to speak. with me directly
2:06:01
over the phone. She's like, how
2:06:03
about, she's like, I'm going on a 10 day vacation.
2:06:06
How about during this 10 days, you
2:06:08
just have Unsun call and leave a message on my
2:06:10
answering machine. Just like that, that
2:06:12
enough will make me feel better. And
2:06:15
he's like, sure, of course I will, totally. So she
2:06:17
goes on her trip and she
2:06:19
comes home. Not a single message from Unsun,
2:06:22
obviously on her answering machine. So she goes straight
2:06:24
to the county sheriff. And
2:06:26
this guy attempts to do a routine welfare
2:06:28
check on Unsun and
2:06:30
didn't see her at the house. And so
2:06:33
Renee was able to report Unsun as a
2:06:35
missing person. When
2:06:37
Larry was interviewed about
2:06:40
maybe where Unsun could be, he continuously
2:06:42
changed his story. He started making
2:06:45
up new ones. He said Unsun
2:06:47
had recently discovered, or had experienced
2:06:49
a nervous breakdown. And
2:06:51
he's like, well, you can't come over
2:06:53
because if you come over, then she'll
2:06:55
have another breakdown, another nervous
2:06:58
breakdown. And they're
2:07:00
like, hmm. I feel like they were like,
2:07:02
we'll risk that, but thank you. Yeah, I
2:07:04
think we'd rather risk that to make sure
2:07:06
she's alive, but sure, thanks for your input.
2:07:09
And one detective on the case said
2:07:11
Larry was polite and soft spoken and
2:07:13
very smart. And with his twinkly blue
2:07:16
eyes, he could get somebody to maybe
2:07:18
trust him. See, that's the thing,
2:07:20
it's the blue eyes. It's the blue eyes. It's
2:07:23
the blue eyes. Yeah, there's something
2:07:25
about it. Y'all are privileged. And
2:07:27
there's some, I just, I
2:07:29
don't care who you are, man, woman,
2:07:31
non-binary, blue eyes. I'll believe
2:07:33
nearly anything you say. There's
2:07:36
something- Oh, that's a dangerous thing to
2:07:38
announce to the world. And I'm telling
2:07:40
you, I think I would have
2:07:42
maybe fallen for the, even if I had a bad
2:07:44
feeling about this guy, I would have seen the blue
2:07:47
eyes and I would have had to shake myself out
2:07:49
of the delusion. I think I would have been siren
2:07:51
lulled in. It's so funny, because I only feel that
2:07:53
way. Like I don't have a thing about blue eyes
2:07:55
at all. I'm very much like a, the
2:07:58
greener, greener brown. The greener,
2:08:00
the more toxic they
2:08:03
are to me. Yeah, that part's dangerous.
2:08:05
The green is dangerous. Agreed. But
2:08:07
blue, green, I mean, it's just so opposite of what I
2:08:09
have that any of it really works on me, but man,
2:08:12
a green eye is just, I mean, you might as
2:08:14
well just put me out of my misery. I'm gonna
2:08:16
just fall for it all, you know? I'm gonna
2:08:18
follow them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Green eyes will get me
2:08:20
too. I'll follow them to battle. Yeah.
2:08:22
Yeah, apparently he had very like... Okay,
2:08:25
so the way Heather was like, on the sinister,
2:08:27
was like, he's like, he's like, he
2:08:30
looked like he was startled awake by
2:08:32
an alien, like in every photo, which I was like,
2:08:34
what a very specific visual. Wait, do you have a
2:08:36
picture of him? What's the call?
2:08:39
Yeah, yeah. Here, let me get... Should
2:08:41
I look him up or... Well, you can look him up. Okay. Kari
2:08:45
Rasmussen, T-E-R-R-Y-R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N. And then go to images,
2:08:48
because it's like decades worth of photos,
2:08:50
like I've, you know... You
2:08:54
know, I kind
2:08:57
of get what she's saying. I don't know if she... If
2:09:01
he woke up from an alien, but I feel
2:09:03
like he does... He
2:09:05
looks as lulled by an alien as I would be
2:09:07
lulled by green eyes. I would
2:09:09
say he looks kind of like he woke up as
2:09:12
an alien. Yes. That's
2:09:14
a good way to put it. He almost looks like
2:09:16
he kind of came from some other planet.
2:09:18
But I think we're onto something, because you
2:09:20
know what it is? I think it's like
2:09:22
the uncanny valley of like, no
2:09:24
soul behind the eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
2:09:27
yeah, yeah. You
2:09:29
know when some people... Well, maybe this is me,
2:09:31
because I just do so much of this. But when I
2:09:33
look up, when I see
2:09:35
the picture of a person that
2:09:37
I'm studying or researching who's done
2:09:39
some really, really horrible, horrible stuff
2:09:41
like this guy, I will
2:09:44
see the photo and I will have
2:09:46
to scroll away. I don't even want to look at it.
2:09:48
It turns my stomach almost. And
2:09:51
some people I feel like I kind of look
2:09:53
at and I'm like, ugh, what a dickhead. But
2:09:55
some people I see their photo and I go
2:09:57
like, I don't even want them on
2:09:59
my screen. I don't want to look him in
2:10:02
the eye. That's why I feel like Charles man,
2:10:04
so I can't look back. Oh, yeah, it's the
2:10:06
Wily Something is
2:10:08
I think it's also when they're smiling I get
2:10:11
like really upset. I'm like I do not Want
2:10:14
to look at you smiling like it makes me
2:10:16
sick to my stomach, but yeah, I That's
2:10:19
how I feel about this guy. Just I don't even
2:10:22
want to look at him Yeah, looking at the one
2:10:24
picture of him with it where his eyes are obviously
2:10:26
blue. I would not describe them as twinkling I
2:10:29
would describe them as yeah Blank
2:10:34
a force either they're pulling you but maybe
2:10:36
in a wrong direction Yeah,
2:10:38
which is exactly what they did. I think Worrying
2:10:42
way unsunderscribe. Yeah, they're very
2:10:44
alluring and I think unsund
2:10:46
described them as And
2:10:49
you know being Korean she also had
2:10:51
darker hair darker eyes So maybe
2:10:53
it's the same effect and where you're like, wow,
2:10:56
I'm just like mesmerized by these blue eyes.
2:10:58
I'm a ride I look back to good words
2:11:00
mesmerized and I want to be
2:11:02
clear to those who don't know what we look like I'm sure
2:11:04
many of you have not checked this picked out photos of us
2:11:06
because you're not nosy as fuck like I am when I listen
2:11:09
to podcasts, but None of us have
2:11:11
well, I don't have blue eye. I've brown eyes.
2:11:13
So when you heard him say oh people with
2:11:15
blue eyes Like it's none of us on our
2:11:17
team. So Yeah, no,
2:11:20
it's a lot go for it if
2:11:22
Christine had green eyes and those
2:11:24
shoulders we'd be in trouble, but luckily it's only
2:11:26
one Maybe
2:11:29
I'll be like the guy in pants lab, or
2:11:31
then I'll have green eyes Christine
2:11:38
you are you wanted you're having
2:11:41
a real day of
2:11:43
the Mondays You
2:11:45
got you really are pulling out all the stops
2:11:47
today with I mean, well
2:11:49
done now. Oh Emmett
2:11:52
the Anyway,
2:11:54
so this detective she says basically like yeah,
2:11:56
I could see why a woman might fall
2:11:59
for this fall for his like kind of
2:12:02
sparkling eyes that
2:12:04
look. But being
2:12:06
the detective on the case, she does not trust
2:12:08
him one tiny bit. So as the case progresses,
2:12:12
they ask, Oh, do you mind if we take
2:12:14
your fingerprints since this is just no big deal
2:12:16
and yada yada. We just like we'd love to
2:12:19
have them on file, you know, just in case
2:12:21
this motherfucker says, Sure, you
2:12:24
can have my fingerprints. Oh,
2:12:26
like he has to know and again, like
2:12:28
I know I've just switched to calling him
2:12:30
Larry because unsung knew him as Larry. But
2:12:32
this is still, to be clear,
2:12:34
Perry, Bob, I mean,
2:12:38
is it the confidence? Is it just like
2:12:40
the the cockiness that they've all got? Oh,
2:12:43
actually, I believe, which
2:12:46
I've heard on a few podcasts is not
2:12:48
my theory, but I believe the speculation
2:12:50
that he didn't realize that over
2:12:53
the years, technology had advanced enough
2:12:55
that they can run it right
2:12:57
there. And a lot
2:13:00
of people think he just wanted to be
2:13:02
amicable and like agreeable. And then
2:13:04
he was gonna bow. But
2:13:07
he didn't realize that they could take
2:13:09
his fingerprints, go in another room on
2:13:11
a computer, presumably, and actually run the
2:13:14
fingerprints and find out then
2:13:16
and there, wait, why does it say
2:13:18
your name is Curtis, you know, and
2:13:21
so they fingerprint him, he has to know it won't
2:13:23
end well, but he doesn't, he
2:13:25
gives in any way. And the prints
2:13:28
come back as Curtis Kimball. And the
2:13:31
notes about Curtis Kimball say he's
2:13:33
a fugitive parolee once imprisoned for
2:13:35
child abandonment. So there's
2:13:38
this recording of an interview and the investigators
2:13:40
ask him like, Hey, do you do
2:13:42
any of these names ring a bell? They
2:13:45
say, Do you recognize
2:13:48
Curtis? Do you recognize Gordon? He says no.
2:13:50
And they're like, well, you
2:13:52
are those people. So your
2:13:55
fingerprints match your Gordon, Curtis and
2:13:57
Larry. However, they don't
2:14:00
realize he's actually Terry Rasmussen. They
2:14:02
still have not figured out that there's like
2:14:04
this there are
2:14:07
more aliases behind the
2:14:09
aliases. Yeah, you know, I always
2:14:11
feel like, you know, my expertise
2:14:13
extends towards Law and Order SVU.
2:14:16
But when they're like, we got them
2:14:18
all three aliases, and I'm like, if he
2:14:20
had three, why do we think there was not
2:14:22
a fourth? Why? What are we doing? Should
2:14:24
we check for more? Why are
2:14:26
we pretending like we crossed the finish
2:14:29
line? Like they're just
2:14:31
getting noted when something erect
2:14:33
worthy or a crime occurs. That's it. But
2:14:36
like, who knows if he wasn't caught or
2:14:38
did something nobody knew about? Well, maybe we
2:14:40
never found out the name. So and there
2:14:42
are a few blanks in the years of
2:14:44
his timeline that are unaccounted for because it's
2:14:46
just so long ago that like, who
2:14:48
knows, he could have had tons of
2:14:50
aliases. But at
2:14:52
this point, they're thinking, oh,
2:14:55
this is really Curtis, not Larry,
2:14:57
whatever. So he's
2:14:59
arrested for violating his parole. And the
2:15:02
detectives decide to search his home for
2:15:04
unsung because he's saying, Oh, no, she
2:15:06
had a nervous breakdown. Don't come over.
2:15:09
And they're like, we're actually going to arrest
2:15:11
you and also go over. So
2:15:13
they did. And they're looking around. They don't
2:15:16
really see many see anything out of the
2:15:18
ordinary. They do see
2:15:20
like on some pottery area
2:15:22
and it appears to be untouched.
2:15:24
However, in the house, there's no women's
2:15:26
clothing, there's no shoes, like it
2:15:28
didn't appear like she was actively
2:15:30
living there. And so they started
2:15:32
to feel uneasy. The only sign
2:15:35
of her, like I said, were
2:15:37
those pottery projects that were unfinished
2:15:39
and untouched in the garage. And
2:15:41
they're looking around and they find
2:15:43
a crawl space. Oh,
2:15:46
God. Yeah. And
2:15:49
in the crawl
2:15:51
space, they discover a five foot
2:15:55
pile of cat litter. Okay.
2:16:02
Next to the pile of cat litter is
2:16:05
an axe covered in blood. Wow,
2:16:14
he just really wasn't even trying to hide it.
2:16:16
Like also by the way, like talk about stupid,
2:16:18
stupid, stupid, stupid space. But
2:16:21
that's it. But like you literally
2:16:23
her mean best
2:16:25
friend is literally saying I'm going to call
2:16:27
the police. I think maybe right
2:16:29
now while I've got these 10 days while
2:16:31
she's on vacation, before she calls the police,
2:16:33
I should spend 10 days trying to get
2:16:35
rid of it. That's
2:16:38
what he did. This was his attempt. This
2:16:40
was the most did when he was
2:16:42
trying to hide quote unquote lazy man
2:16:45
thing I've ever like, Oh, all really, I'll
2:16:47
fool them all. Just throw it into this one obvious
2:16:49
crawl space instead of like you put
2:16:51
everything else in the fucking woods. Like at
2:16:53
least try that. That's
2:16:55
true. That's true. Yeah. I
2:16:58
don't I don't know why I
2:17:02
can't really claim to understand the logic
2:17:04
or the shift in logic there. I
2:17:07
wonder. Well, okay, we'll get to it. So they're
2:17:10
pushing the cat litter around probably feeling
2:17:12
like a horror
2:17:15
movie like anything any moment something terrible
2:17:17
is going to happen. They were right.
2:17:20
They push the litter around and
2:17:22
they find a human foot that is
2:17:24
still wearing a flip flop sandal. Mm.
2:17:29
Oh, of course, we know now
2:17:31
this was unsung whom Terry had murdered
2:17:34
some time ago, seemingly by blunt force
2:17:36
trauma to the head. The
2:17:40
cat litter, which by the way, I don't think it's
2:17:42
in these notes. But when he went to buy that
2:17:44
cat litter, like they also on the
2:17:46
bare brook taste like having a whole I don't
2:17:48
want to say a whole episode, but they have
2:17:50
a whole section where they talk about him going
2:17:52
to buy that fucking cat litter. And he went
2:17:54
to like multiple pet stores because he was looking
2:17:56
for like pounds
2:18:00
upon pounds of cat litter. So
2:18:03
he's basically carrying like 200 pounds of cat litter
2:18:05
home. Like that's something like expensive.
2:18:08
I mean not expensive. I mean it is expensive
2:18:10
but I mean heavy. That shit's heavy. He has
2:18:12
to like bulk order cat litter which by the
2:18:14
way if anyone's picked up a cat litter thing
2:18:17
those things are fucking there's like 50 pounds for
2:18:19
those big containers and he bought like dozens of
2:18:21
them. I feel like
2:18:23
that's like he really just
2:18:25
lucked out by like people not noticing things
2:18:27
because he's doing a lot of things that
2:18:29
are really cocky.
2:18:31
You know you think about it and I guess
2:18:34
the guy who sold in the cat litter talks
2:18:36
about like I mean yeah I thought
2:18:38
it was really fucking weird but what am I gonna do
2:18:40
call the police and be like this guy bought a bunch
2:18:42
of cat litter you know. It's like you
2:18:45
can't really arrest somebody for that. So it's like and
2:18:48
back then you you know there weren't really there
2:18:50
wasn't access to like background checking people or like
2:18:52
following the guy and seeing what his deal is
2:18:54
or looking him up on social media. So it's
2:18:56
sort of like the guy who sold it to
2:18:58
him said like I just had to
2:19:00
sell it to him and later
2:19:03
he came forward and said the guy bought all
2:19:05
that cat litter from me but like at the
2:19:07
time you know he's just some weird eccentric old
2:19:09
guy like. I mean
2:19:11
I guess I just don't know how again
2:19:14
I don't know how I would get rid of a body
2:19:16
but if I had a 10 day
2:19:19
head start I like to think I'd
2:19:21
do pretty okay for a second at
2:19:23
least not like immediately upon arrival getting
2:19:25
busted. So like
2:19:27
yeah. Especially like cat
2:19:29
litter like yeah I guess it absorbs one
2:19:31
smell but guess what it still smells like
2:19:34
fucking cat litter and if you have hundreds
2:19:36
of pounds of that. Okay but also imagine
2:19:38
that you know that dust that just gets
2:19:40
everywhere. Yes. And also speaking on
2:19:42
that segment where they talk about this whole
2:19:44
cat litter thing he had actually told his
2:19:47
next door neighbor like just basically
2:19:49
based on what you just said I wanted to
2:19:52
let you know that he told his neighbor oh don't
2:19:56
don't worry if you smell
2:19:58
some really bad smells coming from my. house
2:20:00
over the next few weeks because I
2:20:03
actually am redoing the basement
2:20:05
like some area of my basement or
2:20:07
crawlspace or whatever and you know
2:20:09
some rats have been getting in and since I'm
2:20:11
patching it up I think like they're bound to
2:20:13
die in there and so there might be a
2:20:15
smell for a little while so he's already going
2:20:17
around like telling people if I were his neighbor
2:20:20
I'd have been like what do you mean don't
2:20:22
mind the smell how about you don't mind bothering
2:20:24
like for weeks you're telling me for weeks there's
2:20:26
gonna be the smell of death around my house
2:20:28
get in there okay like what's wrong with you
2:20:31
is that and also what a weird thing to
2:20:33
say before you even know if a squirrel has
2:20:35
died or a rat has died like to say
2:20:37
a rat might die in my house if you
2:20:39
smell something it's like well why would you even
2:20:41
say that why wouldn't you wait for it to
2:20:43
actually smell and then be like oh sorry a
2:20:45
rat got in you know I'm telling you I
2:20:47
feel weird to like preemptively tell somebody there might
2:20:50
be a weird smell I really think he was
2:20:52
just like because it sounds like
2:20:54
everything he's done so far
2:20:56
or like the ways he's gotten busted or the
2:20:58
stories he's telling people it sounds like I
2:21:01
guess he's experienced at this because he's done it
2:21:03
so many times now but like it still sounds
2:21:05
like he's kind of half bumbling around and like
2:21:07
only like thriving out of luck like it
2:21:10
feels like yeah so you know what that's a
2:21:12
great point because I think a lot of people
2:21:14
have described him as like kind of a genius
2:21:16
or I wouldn't even say genius but people have
2:21:18
said like wow he's just like this criminal mastermind
2:21:20
but like the way they're in Christi talked about
2:21:22
him they're like you know fucking smart he's just
2:21:25
he doesn't manage of the fact doesn't sound smart
2:21:27
at all like he's just taking advantage of
2:21:29
like the lack of technology at the time
2:21:31
he's taking advantage of people
2:21:34
who have relationships that he
2:21:36
can like sever or try to sever
2:21:38
by separating them from their families he's
2:21:40
finding people who are like looking for
2:21:42
love and he can convince them that
2:21:44
he's charming like he's taking advantage of
2:21:47
these things but he's not brilliant
2:21:49
like he's not some genius you know
2:21:51
he's really actually not the not the
2:21:54
brightest like if you're a
2:21:56
criminal mastermind he could not be a serial
2:21:58
killer today he would have been found in five seconds flat.
2:22:00
Like, you know what, I hate that I
2:22:03
keep like awkwardly bringing them up like I
2:22:05
talked to them yesterday but they said the
2:22:07
same thing on the podcast like how serial
2:22:09
killers like the ones in the 70s just
2:22:13
can't operate like that anymore
2:22:15
in a modern age because there are
2:22:17
cameras there are traits everything's
2:22:20
traceable and so it's like
2:22:22
a very different time. I feel like all
2:22:24
this did and this for obviously only a
2:22:26
niche group of really shitty men
2:22:28
that are serial killers but I feel like
2:22:30
in this you know that group but I
2:22:32
feel like in this way like this is
2:22:34
just evidence like of how the patriarchy happens
2:22:36
is like yeah because in the 70s you
2:22:39
could kill someone and get away with it
2:22:41
and like you got this weird bolstered ego
2:22:43
and then like I feel like it just
2:22:45
like kind of gets passed on to like
2:22:47
oh there's this really weird heightened sense of
2:22:49
confidence you have when really maybe
2:22:52
it's not for this time you know. Yes
2:22:54
today it doesn't quite fly the same
2:22:56
and of course we have our own
2:22:58
issues with the rise of technology like
2:23:01
school shooters so I'm not saying oh
2:23:03
people can't like kill bunches of people
2:23:05
anymore you know but he
2:23:07
made a good point of like the way
2:23:09
that they operated back then and like
2:23:12
the age of the serial killer was
2:23:14
just like moving around changing
2:23:16
your identity, separating
2:23:19
people from their loved ones like there's just
2:23:21
some things that they could do back then
2:23:23
to take advantage of that they wouldn't be
2:23:25
able to do nowadays or at
2:23:27
least as easily so you make a very
2:23:30
very good point there because I agree that
2:23:32
he's a dumbass like just
2:23:34
putting a fucking like just the reason that those
2:23:36
barrels were not found is not because he was
2:23:39
a genius it's because like he they just happened
2:23:41
to be remote enough that it took a while
2:23:43
for a kid on an atv
2:23:45
to find it. I mean he literally put it
2:23:47
in the middle of the woods like he literally
2:23:49
in some ways he was hiding it and in
2:23:51
some ways he was not at all hiding it
2:23:53
like he was actively putting it out in the
2:23:55
open right and like I don't know it's just
2:23:58
if someone who is saying
2:24:01
I'm gonna call the police you have ten days my
2:24:03
first thought would not be let's take the still
2:24:06
bloody axe and just throw it under my house
2:24:08
just toss it down with the
2:24:10
dead squirrels and then tell my neighbor about
2:24:12
and yeah and then mix it up with
2:24:14
a bunch of cat litter that everyone will
2:24:16
notice and like that doesn't that's not a
2:24:18
bad it like so it was 2000 and
2:24:20
I'm just like thinking back like of course
2:24:22
you know Amazon was either in its
2:24:25
infancy I think it was a pretty
2:24:27
early on or at least like early
2:24:30
stages right but like he
2:24:32
went to a local small business
2:24:34
pet store and was like I
2:24:36
need like 200 pounds of
2:24:38
cat litter and they're like here's my other
2:24:40
thing is like cats if you're that good if you're
2:24:44
at first off you're willing to drive
2:24:46
hours I assume to get from location to location
2:24:48
to buy other stuff if you're able
2:24:50
to lift a deadweight 50 pound thing
2:24:54
why are you bringing all of it to your house why don't
2:24:56
you take the dead body and fucking hide it in the woods
2:24:58
again and get away with it like you've been doing so well
2:25:00
like why are you you I'm just
2:25:02
I think I'm just blown away by the lake
2:25:05
here he literally had a head start and just
2:25:07
did the laziest version of it because he thought
2:25:09
well and I also I'll be
2:25:11
honest like this is fully
2:25:14
speculation off my part I do not
2:25:16
want I don't know this
2:25:18
is just my opinion my opinion
2:25:21
is that he potentially had more
2:25:23
victims because like I said there
2:25:25
were periods of time where he
2:25:28
was just kind of off the grid we don't know what he
2:25:30
was up to and you know
2:25:32
he killed a lot of
2:25:35
people and had no qualms about
2:25:37
doing it so what
2:25:39
would make the years that we don't know about any different
2:25:41
except that he was caught for the other ones and so
2:25:44
my thinking is like if he put them in a barrel
2:25:46
for that one maybe for the next one he just like
2:25:49
dropped him on the side of the road and we just
2:25:51
he just was never caught you know maybe this was just
2:25:53
like he just
2:25:55
always did something kind of half-assed and random
2:25:57
but this time I think it's just a
2:26:00
combination of like for
2:26:02
the time that was somehow easier to
2:26:04
do was like just drop someone off
2:26:06
on the side of the road in plain view and get
2:26:08
away with it yeah and I think it was
2:26:10
just his like laziness slash cockiness of like oh
2:26:12
I've done it a million times who's gonna notice now and
2:26:15
I well if you think about it
2:26:17
they would never have known if Renee
2:26:19
had not kept calling and
2:26:21
saying I'm reporting her as
2:26:23
a missing person's that also would not
2:26:25
have found her if he hadn't
2:26:29
done a fingerprint and he didn't have to like
2:26:31
they he was not like he
2:26:33
was not arrested he was just being questioned and he
2:26:36
agreed to give fingerprints if he had
2:26:38
not done that they would not have run his
2:26:40
name and found out that he's this fugitive and
2:26:42
gotten an immediate warrant to check
2:26:44
his house so I'm like honestly he almost
2:26:46
did get away with it the
2:26:48
way my anxiety if I were killing
2:26:51
one person let alone this was just
2:26:53
like my passion project if I were
2:26:55
killing all these people the way I
2:26:58
would be studying the updates in
2:27:00
police technology to make sure I got
2:27:02
away with it and all you guys
2:27:04
like what am I here about an
2:27:06
update I'm like oh I hope they're
2:27:08
shitting their pants these old fuck yeah
2:27:10
I haven't been caught I hope they're
2:27:12
I hope they are I hope they
2:27:15
live the rest of their lives in terror
2:27:17
that they're gonna be caught because technology
2:27:20
is they would again you know and the
2:27:22
daytime travel happens they will be in
2:27:25
big time big time trouble big
2:27:27
time like oh time travel trouble yeah no but like
2:27:36
the the second that we could go bitch do let's
2:27:38
see what happened on this day in this location
2:27:40
bloop you're saying about that all
2:27:43
the time all the time yeah
2:27:45
not even in that just like serial killer sphere
2:27:48
which obviously is also something
2:27:50
I probably would think about but just in
2:27:52
the idea of like someday we'll be able to like go
2:27:54
back well at least I think someday we'll be able to
2:27:56
go back and be like you know
2:27:58
the semantic arguments like I said this, no,
2:28:01
you said it this way. And I
2:28:03
was thinking that the other day, because Blaze and I
2:28:05
got into like, oh, not an argument, but we were like,
2:28:07
he's like, I told you, and I was like, no,
2:28:09
you didn't. And we scrolled back through texts, and he
2:28:11
had like half told me, but like, then
2:28:13
he's like, oh, I can see why you
2:28:15
thought, like, I meant something different. And I'm
2:28:18
like, thank God for that text that we
2:28:20
have written down, because otherwise we'd sit here
2:28:22
like, no, you're crazy. No, you're, you know. And
2:28:24
so sometimes I'm like, I wonder if one day we'll
2:28:26
be able to just go like rewind and like do
2:28:28
a replay. This is where I
2:28:31
like to remind people that chat
2:28:33
logs and like text history is
2:28:36
a form of time travel, because you're traveling back
2:28:38
through time, just to prove something. Okay, Bill
2:28:40
Nye. So if
2:28:42
you really think about it, we're
2:28:44
always time traveling. So Blaze pulled
2:28:47
a Marty McFly on you, I think. But
2:28:49
yeah, now I guess we are always time traveling. We're
2:28:51
just accelerating into the future. I think I pulled a
2:28:53
Marty McFly on him. I said, step aside,
2:28:55
let me get the fucking receipts. And he
2:28:57
was like, oh no. Why
2:28:59
do I argue with Christine? This always happens, that
2:29:02
she turns around and shouts about time
2:29:05
travel and having the receipts. Anyway,
2:29:08
so, but it was
2:29:10
nice, because at the end we were like, oh, I was like, oh, you
2:29:12
did kind of say it. And he's like, oh
2:29:15
wow, I can see why you would have thought
2:29:17
it the other way. And I was like, wow,
2:29:19
is that like a healthy relationship? Like a healthy
2:29:21
bickering looks like that we're like, wow, I can
2:29:23
see where you're coming from. Anyway, let's make dinner.
2:29:25
It's like, well, honestly,
2:29:27
there's a very powerful moment for me as
2:29:29
someone who has not had many
2:29:32
years of this life experiencing that in the
2:29:34
past. I'm like, that's a beautiful moment. I'm
2:29:36
like, oh my God, wait, so we're not, we
2:29:38
don't have to be mad for the next
2:29:40
six days. I get like really overwhelmed. I'm
2:29:42
like, I love you so much. And he's
2:29:44
like, okay. Yeah, I don't know.
2:29:46
I just think I'm like, wow, it's just
2:29:49
so nice to have a moment of like,
2:29:52
oh, we don't have to get
2:29:54
our, we don't, we can just sit down now and
2:29:56
watch a show. Like it doesn't matter. Anyway, it's
2:29:59
crazy. if you know you know
2:30:01
okay just
2:30:03
girly things okay where where are
2:30:05
we all right so we
2:30:08
are here they have this
2:30:10
cat litter they are finding
2:30:13
that there is a body within the cat
2:30:15
litter we know it is unsung and
2:30:19
the cat litter had apparently completely
2:30:21
concealed any odor that would have
2:30:23
come from human remains and
2:30:25
it also dehydrated the remains and they were
2:30:27
described as almost mummified so in some ways
2:30:30
Emma I've got to say like if he
2:30:32
had a few more weeks he
2:30:34
probably could have just removed her
2:30:36
put her somewhere like out
2:30:39
of sight where the smell of decomp and all that
2:30:41
wouldn't be noticeable he could
2:30:43
have really gotten away with it if if
2:30:46
it weren't for that pesky Renee
2:30:48
you know because uh like
2:30:50
you know it had to happen just
2:30:52
so that he was talked into giving
2:30:55
fingerprints and that technology was allowed
2:30:57
them to run it that day and that Renee made
2:30:59
that missing persons report so yeah they
2:31:03
said it really like actually mummified the body
2:31:05
which is very disturbing um and
2:31:08
Terry decided which goes toward
2:31:11
my hypothesis Terry decided he
2:31:13
was not going to fight the charges at all and
2:31:15
he said yeah okay I'll take a murder conviction I'll
2:31:17
go to prison I'll plead yeah he was
2:31:20
he was shaken I bet he
2:31:22
was hiding something right like he did not
2:31:25
want them digging any further he's like yeah
2:31:27
sure I did that send me
2:31:29
to prison and no I totally I totally get
2:31:31
why you would don't want people digging but
2:31:34
he's got more bodies then because you're right or
2:31:36
and I also think maybe it was part of his
2:31:39
like I think it shattered the
2:31:41
illusion that like you're not as smart as you
2:31:43
fucking think you are like yeah that's true too
2:31:45
yeah it's like so maybe like just shut up
2:31:47
and be happy this is all we have
2:31:49
I know still in this year 2000 think
2:31:51
that he's Curtis like that's his
2:31:53
real identity so they don't even know about all
2:31:55
the other shit that happened before that they have
2:31:57
not even he linked it so he was like,
2:32:00
yeah, yeah, yeah, I just put me to jail now. He's like,
2:32:02
Oh, oops, you caught me put me away.
2:32:04
And so, you know,
2:32:06
the fact that he decided to just go
2:32:08
straight to prison, don't
2:32:11
pass go, made the detective
2:32:13
on the case very uneasy. And
2:32:15
she felt like, okay, well, obviously,
2:32:17
he's hiding something. So she she,
2:32:19
she sure did. I sure did say
2:32:21
she, although she's also the one who said
2:32:23
he was he had a loo like charming eyes or
2:32:25
whatever. And I was like, I don't know.
2:32:28
I also thought that maybe I didn't mean like that. Yeah,
2:32:31
yeah, right. We kind of did end up
2:32:33
coming to that conclusion. So she's probably onto
2:32:35
something. But yeah, so she decides to dig
2:32:37
into his child abandonment charge from the late
2:32:39
80s. Because she's like, all they knew was that he
2:32:42
went to prison for that. And
2:32:44
then he fled during his parole. So she starts
2:32:47
digging into the child abandonment, just to see if like
2:32:49
there any threads to pull, you know, and
2:32:52
it had happened in the late 80s. So
2:32:54
she begins to wonder this child Lisa like,
2:32:57
is this even his child? So
2:32:59
she doesn't they do a paternity test.
2:33:02
And she was onto
2:33:04
something because it turns out Terry was
2:33:06
not related to little Lisa at all.
2:33:09
So the child he brought to the trailer
2:33:11
park and was sexually assaulting in the
2:33:13
back of the pickup truck or whatever
2:33:15
every night was not his
2:33:17
own child. So they're like, who
2:33:19
the hell is she then? So
2:33:21
in 2003, they opened
2:33:23
an investigation to discover who 22
2:33:27
year old Lisa really is. And
2:33:29
you know, they're still they they have Lisa
2:33:31
because, you know, she had
2:33:33
been in the system because she'd been
2:33:35
abandoned and all this. And so she
2:33:38
also agreed that she wanted answers about
2:33:40
her past. So investigators began considering that
2:33:42
like maybe Terry had killed Lisa's mother
2:33:44
and then taken Lisa and
2:33:47
they end up kidnapping.
2:33:49
Exactly. So
2:33:51
years went by without answers from
2:33:53
Curtis Kimball. They
2:33:56
that's how they knew him and he ended
2:33:58
up dying in prison in 2010.
2:34:00
So in 2015 when Lisa
2:34:03
and investigators discovered a new
2:34:07
investigative angle forensic
2:34:10
genealogy anyone they
2:34:12
discovered that they could get
2:34:15
potentially some real solid leads.
2:34:18
So they submit Lisa's DNA to
2:34:20
ancestry.com and Lisa is
2:34:22
matched to a few distant fourth
2:34:24
and fifth cousins and now there's
2:34:26
this renowned genetic genealogist some of
2:34:29
you may have heard of her
2:34:31
her name is Barbara Ray Venter
2:34:34
and she does some very very
2:34:37
just incredible work she actually was
2:34:39
a massive piece
2:34:42
of the investigation
2:34:44
into the Golden State Killer and
2:34:47
she was the one who helped unmask
2:34:50
him as being Joseph or
2:34:52
Joseph James DeAngelo so she
2:34:55
is like a
2:34:58
champion at this doing this
2:35:00
genealogy and it's not just you know like
2:35:02
matching DNA and then she
2:35:04
has to kind of know her
2:35:07
mind works in this way where she can say
2:35:10
see a big picture like if this
2:35:12
is your second cousin that means we
2:35:14
may be able to link like your
2:35:16
you know great great grandmother to so
2:35:19
she has a very she
2:35:21
knows the family tree inside and out yeah
2:35:24
she like she knows every range that those
2:35:26
patterns in a certain way that like I'm
2:35:28
sure I could never learn and
2:35:30
so they get her involved and so I just
2:35:32
gave you that to kind of show she's like
2:35:35
top of the top and she
2:35:37
had worked for a long time with adoptees
2:35:39
to find information on their families
2:35:42
so she spent tireless
2:35:44
hours building Lisa's family tree bit by
2:35:46
bit and she finally based on just
2:35:48
these like fourth and fifth cousins and
2:35:51
she finally discovers a close
2:35:53
relative a grandfather who lived
2:35:55
in New Hampshire so
2:35:59
from this grandfather investigators
2:36:01
learned that his daughter,
2:36:03
Denise Bowden, had
2:36:05
been Lisa's mother. So
2:36:08
he's learning – he's
2:36:11
like, Lisa is my granddaughter, and Lisa's
2:36:15
like, oh shit, that's my grandpa, my
2:36:17
real blood grandpa. So
2:36:21
she learns now that her mother's name
2:36:23
was Denise Bowden, and Lisa
2:36:26
finds out she had actually been born
2:36:29
Dawn, D-A-W-N, Dawn Bowden
2:36:31
in 1981. And
2:36:35
so she's learning a whole new identity
2:36:37
for herself that she did not know
2:36:39
because this Terry had changed her name.
2:36:43
And I will say it was a
2:36:45
relief to her for obvious reasons to find
2:36:47
out that she was not related to Terry.
2:36:50
It must have been a moment
2:36:52
of relief. But then also a
2:36:55
little bit overwhelming, like then who am I,
2:36:57
and where is my dad? And it
2:37:01
just opens more – it asks
2:37:03
more questions than it answers. Also
2:37:06
part of me wonders what the
2:37:08
conversations looked like when she
2:37:10
was just recently
2:37:12
kidnapped by him, and she was
2:37:15
probably saying, my name's Dawn. My
2:37:17
name's not Lisa.
2:37:19
Yeah. I don't know
2:37:21
what had to happen
2:37:23
to convince her to play along. Yeah,
2:37:26
and you think of the trauma that probably just
2:37:28
blocks out the early stuff,
2:37:30
and it's horrible. So
2:37:34
she finds out her given name
2:37:36
is actually Dawn Bowden, but
2:37:39
most people referred her as Lisa, and I'm
2:37:42
just going to keep using that name. Apparently,
2:37:46
in talking to the
2:37:48
grandfather, investigators learned that Denise Bowden,
2:37:50
his daughter, had been dating a
2:37:53
man that November of 1981 named Bob Evans. Okay,
2:38:00
well, that'll do it. So
2:38:03
Terry had been doing work in the area
2:38:05
as an electrician and a repairman, and he
2:38:08
sometimes worked for a camp store about 25
2:38:10
minutes away from Denise's home. And the
2:38:13
camp store was located at Bearbrook State
2:38:15
Park. So
2:38:18
over Thanksgiving, Bob and Denise are
2:38:20
at Denise's family's house, and Bob
2:38:22
tells the family that they were
2:38:24
in some trouble because they owed
2:38:26
people some money. So
2:38:29
they said, Bob told her family, hey, we're
2:38:31
gonna leave town, please don't try
2:38:33
to contact us until we reach out because
2:38:35
we don't wanna be compromised and put in
2:38:38
danger. Oh, wow. So
2:38:40
he's basically setting this up, like don't even
2:38:43
try to talk to us or else you'll
2:38:45
put your daughter in danger. It's
2:38:47
like catch 22, you can't win. Yeah.
2:38:52
So shortly after this had happened, Denise's
2:38:54
father went to her house to invite
2:38:56
her over for Christmas, and this was
2:38:58
right after Thanksgiving, but she had
2:39:01
apparently already left town with Bob and
2:39:03
her daughter without saying goodbye to her
2:39:05
family who was completely
2:39:07
devastated because she lived nearby and
2:39:09
said, hey, we're gonna leave for
2:39:12
a bit, just wait for
2:39:14
us to contact you. And he went
2:39:16
over there to invite her over for Christmas, and
2:39:18
they had already left within, I don't know, days
2:39:20
of Thanksgiving. So just really
2:39:24
grief-stricken, this family just thought,
2:39:26
wow, they just up and left
2:39:28
us. Sorry,
2:39:31
did the grandparents ever, they were alive
2:39:33
to be able to tell this story, so did they get
2:39:35
to meet Lisa then and at least find out that
2:39:37
their granddaughter was alive? Yeah.
2:39:40
Okay, nice. So she basically gained a new
2:39:43
family out of it, which is really cool. Yeah.
2:39:46
So that is like the one silver lining of all
2:39:48
this because suddenly Bob,
2:39:50
quote unquote, and their
2:39:52
daughter are gone, and the
2:39:55
neighbors are saying they saw the couple packing
2:39:57
up and leaving in a hurry. But
2:39:59
Denise is... family couldn't file a
2:40:01
report because Denise wasn't legally missing
2:40:03
and they'd already been
2:40:05
told, oh we're starting a fresh life somewhere
2:40:07
because we're, you know, so they can't even
2:40:09
file a missing persons report because she's not
2:40:12
legally missing. And
2:40:14
she and Bob had told multiple people they were
2:40:16
leaving town to start fresh somewhere new so there
2:40:18
really wasn't much the police could do. So
2:40:21
Denise's family was essentially just left
2:40:23
to wonder like why did Denise
2:40:25
and Dawn never come back and
2:40:27
see us? Like don't they want
2:40:29
to meet their grandparents?
2:40:32
Like don't they want to, you
2:40:35
know, it's just they never knew, they never
2:40:37
knew. Investigators showed
2:40:39
Denise's father a photo of
2:40:41
Gordon who was the
2:40:43
one that abandoned Lisa in California
2:40:46
and he said, yeah
2:40:48
that's Bob Evans who left town
2:40:50
with my granddaughter, my daughter Denise
2:40:52
and my granddaughter Dawn. And
2:40:55
so then they're like, oh boy,
2:40:57
that's Lisa.
2:40:59
Lisa and Dawn are the same person. So
2:41:03
a missing persons case on Denise was now
2:41:05
open and this was in 2016. This
2:41:08
was 35 years after she left
2:41:10
town with Terry Robinson.
2:41:13
A case manager at the Center
2:41:15
for Missing and Exploited Children looked
2:41:17
at the last known location of
2:41:20
Denise and Dawn and suspected a
2:41:22
possible connection to the barrels discovered
2:41:24
in the nearby state park. So
2:41:26
suddenly somebody's like just kind of
2:41:28
looking through some online information
2:41:30
and says, wait a minute, this woman
2:41:33
and daughter are both missing.
2:41:37
Like now that this report is out I
2:41:39
can see their last known location and this
2:41:41
is right around where the barrels were found.
2:41:43
So she's starting to link these
2:41:45
things together. So investigators
2:41:48
exhumed the remains of the
2:41:50
adult victim that they had buried like in
2:41:52
an unnamed grave but her
2:41:54
DNA did not match Lisa's.
2:41:57
What? So the body
2:42:00
did not belong to Denise. So
2:42:03
is this Denise alive? I do
2:42:07
not think so. Okay I didn't know
2:42:09
if that was like the plot just of the century. Okay so
2:42:11
then who is this woman? We'll
2:42:16
get there. Okay so investigators exhume the
2:42:18
body they are thinking this must be
2:42:20
Denise. It is not Denise. However
2:42:23
they still remain convinced that Bob Evans is
2:42:25
somehow linked to these barrels. So they
2:42:27
compare his DNA to the remains found in
2:42:30
the barrels and they discovered that the
2:42:32
child who was not related to the mom
2:42:35
and two daughters was his
2:42:37
own biological daughter. Oh
2:42:43
yeah well okay part of me is
2:42:45
shocked but then another part of me is like well I guess
2:42:47
we thought Lisa was his daughter and he was capable of that
2:42:49
so. Yeah that's true. Oh wait.
2:42:53
Well he was capable of assaulting her but not killing her
2:42:55
I guess right? Yeah.
2:42:57
Yeah he did not kill her. Okay I guess part
2:43:03
of me is surprised. Wow.
2:43:07
Yeah it was shocking. So they
2:43:09
found out that one of the
2:43:11
children in the barrels was his
2:43:13
biological daughter. So they once again
2:43:15
recruited Dr. Barbara who made the
2:43:17
final connection between Bob Evans and
2:43:19
Perry Rasmussen. So they had gotten
2:43:21
back now finally to Bob and
2:43:23
they had connected that to everything
2:43:25
but Dr. Barbara was able to
2:43:27
say oh I have his like
2:43:29
birth name it's Terry Rasmussen and
2:43:32
so at last they had his original identity. In
2:43:35
June of 2017 the New Hampshire
2:43:37
Cold Case Unit met with Diane Klopfer
2:43:39
one of Terry's daughters from his first
2:43:41
marriage and she actually hadn't seen
2:43:44
her father since she was about six years
2:43:46
old and had no idea what
2:43:49
he had done and so to learn that was.
2:43:51
She probably was so excited to like see her
2:43:53
dad again and then find out what
2:43:55
happened. Yeah I don't
2:43:57
know if she wanted to see her. I
2:44:00
don't know if she ever wanted to see her dad. Apparently
2:44:02
he just left when
2:44:04
she was six. So she just said like, okay,
2:44:06
bye. That was when he
2:44:08
kind of came to the house and was like,
2:44:10
well, I'm leaving with my new woman. And
2:44:12
they were like, okay, congratulations. So
2:44:15
I don't know that she like wanted
2:44:18
to hear from him or anything, but
2:44:20
she was shocked to learn like,
2:44:22
oh, he was a serial killer. Like
2:44:24
that, you know, would surprise anyone. And
2:44:27
she was very overwhelmed by this. But
2:44:29
her mother had told her stories about her
2:44:31
father growing up. Like he had once burned
2:44:33
her brother with cigarettes when they were young
2:44:36
children. And she told
2:44:38
interviewers, normal people don't do that. So
2:44:41
agreed one. And two, it sounds
2:44:43
like probably she wasn't interested in having
2:44:45
a relationship with him anyway. And
2:44:48
she said, I don't know if my mother knew
2:44:50
his capacity for violence, but I don't think she
2:44:52
knew about this, his ability to kill women and
2:44:55
children. So Diane had
2:44:57
to kind of reckon with this realization
2:44:59
that if her mother hadn't left Terry,
2:45:01
she and her siblings might've been victims
2:45:03
just like seemingly his
2:45:05
other children and family
2:45:07
members. He used to find that
2:45:09
you have a half sibling who was found
2:45:11
in a barrel and your father killed them.
2:45:14
Yeah, it's not a far stretch to think
2:45:16
that he could have also killed you. And in
2:45:18
some way, like part of you definitely
2:45:20
has to grapple with the thought of like, maybe
2:45:23
like, I'm so lucky my dad just left us
2:45:25
because it could have been so much worse,
2:45:27
you know? Yeah, and so it's like a tough thing because
2:45:29
you're like, well, on the one hand, he left and killed
2:45:31
a bunch of people, but on the other hand, like it
2:45:33
could have been me, you know? So
2:45:37
as more and more news started to break about
2:45:39
this and the people he had killed, people
2:45:41
started calling Terry the chameleon because
2:45:43
he would just change these identities
2:45:46
and just start new lives all the time in
2:45:48
different towns. And meanwhile,
2:45:50
Dr. Barber continued her work. She
2:45:52
read about a new DNA process which could
2:45:55
extract samples from a hair shaft because
2:45:57
now you don't need the root anymore. to
2:46:00
get a DNA sample from hair, fun fact. And
2:46:03
so hair samples from the New Hampshire victims were sent
2:46:06
in for DNA extraction. Now
2:46:08
at the same time, a librarian named
2:46:10
Becky Heath was just doing
2:46:13
her own personal investigation of her own
2:46:15
in her free time for
2:46:17
fun. So she was looking
2:46:19
into this case, she spent countless hours
2:46:21
researching it, pouring over online forums, reading
2:46:23
posts by people looking for missing loved
2:46:25
ones. And finally, she saw
2:46:27
posts that she believed might be describing
2:46:30
the woman and two children discovered in
2:46:32
the barrels at Bear Brook State Park.
2:46:35
So Becky reaches out to the person in
2:46:37
this forum who had written this post and
2:46:40
the post was asking, hey,
2:46:42
I'm looking for this woman who vanished
2:46:45
with her children and she married a man with
2:46:49
the last name Rasmussen, but we never heard from
2:46:51
her again. She
2:46:53
goes, well, that sounds like it may
2:46:56
be linked to these barrels. So
2:46:58
Becky and Dr. Barbara didn't know each
2:47:00
other and they did not know that
2:47:03
simultaneously they were both putting together the
2:47:05
final pieces of this fucking puzzle. In
2:47:09
2019, the news broke and
2:47:11
investigators identified three of the
2:47:14
four victims found in the
2:47:16
barrels. They finally were identified.
2:47:19
The adult victim was Marlise Honeychurch.
2:47:22
The child found in the first barrel with her
2:47:24
was her oldest daughter, Marie. The
2:47:27
youngest child found in the second barrel
2:47:29
was her second daughter, Sarah. Obviously
2:47:34
tragic, but also like at least
2:47:37
names given to these victims that have
2:47:39
been buried without names for
2:47:41
so long. Marlise's
2:47:43
surviving siblings described her as bubbly,
2:47:46
funny, they said she loved being
2:47:48
a mom, she loved her children
2:47:50
dearly. The two children were
2:47:52
from separate marriages and Marlise was raising them
2:47:54
after a divorce in 1978 when
2:47:57
she introduced her family to her new boyfriend.
2:48:00
Rasmussen. That
2:48:02
night Marlise got into an argument
2:48:04
with her mother potentially about the
2:48:06
age gap between Terry and Marlise
2:48:08
which was like 10 years and
2:48:12
so she stormed out of the house left
2:48:14
with Terry and her family never heard from
2:48:16
her again and they thought she had just
2:48:18
like straight up left and didn't want to
2:48:20
be associated with the family anymore. Marlise's
2:48:24
sister Roxanne said in an interview,
2:48:26
I used to say one day
2:48:28
they'll come walking through the door or my nieces
2:48:30
will come looking for their grandmother but that
2:48:33
never happened and their mom
2:48:35
basically lived with this incredible guilt
2:48:37
for years thinking like that argument
2:48:39
we got into made her a
2:48:41
lever forever. She never came back
2:48:44
like something I said and I never
2:48:46
saw my daughter again and Marlise's family
2:48:48
searched for her for years but they
2:48:50
just kept hitting dead ends. So
2:48:53
like Denise Bowden she wasn't officially a
2:48:55
missing person so they turned to the
2:48:57
online forums and tried to do their
2:48:59
own investigation and that's when the librarian
2:49:02
saw this comment this one comment in
2:49:04
a forum saw the name Rasmussen and
2:49:06
went wait a minute I know who
2:49:08
that is. So
2:49:10
finally what
2:49:12
are the odds and she's doing it on
2:49:14
her own free time just because crazy like
2:49:16
just scrolling through to see if she can
2:49:19
link anything. So finally
2:49:21
we had unraveled not
2:49:23
we all these people
2:49:25
these heroes had unraveled all
2:49:28
of these names, identities, victims but of course
2:49:30
there were still questions. For example one
2:49:32
of the children that was discovered in the
2:49:35
barrel was Terry's own daughter but we
2:49:37
to this day do not know her
2:49:39
name. We do not know who her mother
2:49:41
was. We do not know
2:49:43
if her mother was also killed and
2:49:46
so you know we just don't know and
2:49:48
it's really really sad that she has to
2:49:51
go unnamed but investigators have
2:49:53
hoped that somebody might come forward
2:49:55
someday with information that you know
2:49:57
will lead to a name. And
2:50:00
just as recently as 2021, officials
2:50:02
informed the press that examination of
2:50:05
the genetic composition of the child
2:50:07
and genealogy research suggests that the
2:50:09
mother of the child has relatives
2:50:12
in Pearl River County, Mississippi. So
2:50:15
they are starting to find
2:50:17
a few threads and they're
2:50:19
hoping that by saying that somebody in
2:50:22
the area might say, oh, well, we
2:50:25
knew a guy who was in town
2:50:27
and then took a child with him,
2:50:29
you know. So maybe, maybe they'll be
2:50:31
able to finally, you
2:50:33
know, link a name to
2:50:35
this poor child. I
2:50:38
wonder if like... Oh, sorry. Oh,
2:50:40
no, I was going to say, I wonder if like, I
2:50:43
feel like he has to have another victim out
2:50:45
there and that's like the woman he has a
2:50:47
child with because there's no way that a woman
2:50:49
isn't saying at the top of her lungs, Terry
2:50:52
Rasmussen took my kid unless he... I mean, really,
2:50:54
exactly. Unless he thinks his name
2:50:56
again. But like... Well,
2:50:59
shit, so then where's Lisa's
2:51:02
mom? Yeah, part
2:51:04
of me thinks that maybe she's like, maybe
2:51:06
there was an accident and he... Maybe
2:51:09
it was like his first kill and then he
2:51:11
like, maybe he just wanted custody of his kid
2:51:13
and then realized that he couldn't, you know, move
2:51:16
as easily with her around or something. I don't
2:51:18
know if like... Right, right. Because
2:51:20
it's interesting that his daughter, like
2:51:22
everybody else seems to be like buried
2:51:24
with their child or their parent,
2:51:27
except his own kid. So
2:51:29
like, where's her mom? It's
2:51:32
like two different locations or like, maybe he killed
2:51:35
both, he could only carry the daughter and so
2:51:37
brought her somewhere else or I don't know. Yeah,
2:51:40
you know, and I want to add too, I
2:51:42
realized I accidentally misspoke. I said, where's Lisa's
2:51:45
mother, but that's
2:51:47
Don. Don. I'm sorry, he
2:51:49
didn't... Yeah. But
2:51:53
yeah, you're totally right. It makes you
2:51:55
wonder like, all these missing pieces, like
2:51:57
then who's Lisa's
2:51:59
dad? you know, and like,
2:52:01
who's like other
2:52:03
people, there's a mom for her,
2:52:05
you know, yeah, yeah, oh my
2:52:07
gosh, it's just crazy. Yeah, it's
2:52:09
crazy. Anyway, so they
2:52:12
hope that they can construct a family tree again.
2:52:14
And you know, this might lead them to any
2:52:16
surviving family she may have. But
2:52:19
what they do know is they believe and
2:52:21
again, this is coming out in the past couple of years,
2:52:23
which is just so cool that these advancements
2:52:25
keep happening. She is
2:52:27
likely the fifth time or six time
2:52:30
great grandchild of either Thomas Dead Horse
2:52:32
Mitchell, born in 1836, or William Livings,
2:52:37
born in 1826. So
2:52:40
they have those clues and they're hoping like over
2:52:43
time they can piece the rest together. But
2:52:45
unfortunately, oh, I was right. I'm
2:52:48
sorry, I did not misspeak. We
2:52:50
did clarify the, I'm so sorry, the
2:52:52
body in the barrel was not Denise
2:52:55
Bowden. We know
2:52:58
Lisa's mom was Denise because his
2:53:00
her grandfather said, Oh, my daughter
2:53:02
Denise. Oh, okay. Okay, I'm
2:53:04
sorry, I screwed it. I did it right
2:53:06
earlier. But when they found the
2:53:08
body in the barrel, they were like, Oh, well,
2:53:10
this must be Denise. And then it was not
2:53:12
Denise because the DNA did not match Lisa's. So
2:53:15
we don't know to this day where Denise is
2:53:17
where Denise's body is, assuming
2:53:19
that she has been killed because, sure,
2:53:22
again, like, it's probably true,
2:53:25
tragically. But investigators and
2:53:27
her family believe that Terry may
2:53:30
have murdered her somewhere between New
2:53:32
Hampshire and California, and took the
2:53:34
took her daughter and eventually abandoned
2:53:37
her at the trailer park. But
2:53:40
we don't totally know
2:53:42
for certain. Denise's father recently
2:53:44
told interviewers, I don't think they're
2:53:46
ever going to find her. There's
2:53:48
always that hope, but nothing is
2:53:50
definite. And that is the
2:53:52
story of Carrie Rasmussen,
2:53:54
aka the chameleon killer.
2:53:57
Hmm. Well, I
2:54:00
think the moral of the story is that
2:54:02
everyone needs Renee. Yeah. Because
2:54:06
a Renee will see something and a Renee will say
2:54:08
something. Say something, yeah. Yeah. A
2:54:10
Renee will shout something. What's it
2:54:13
like to know that you never have to worry
2:54:15
about people finding out if you're dead because Renee will
2:54:17
make sure? Make sure. It
2:54:19
really is humbling. Yeah,
2:54:24
it is. It's like,
2:54:26
wow. What made me so special, you
2:54:28
know? Oh, well, I'm sure she'll hear
2:54:30
this and let you know that you are, in fact,
2:54:33
very special to have her in your life. It's probably
2:54:35
going to be like something incredibly
2:54:37
rude and people related, so yeah,
2:54:40
maybe not. But we'll see. I
2:54:43
still remember when I was going to
2:54:46
do the hersing shifter, and
2:54:48
I texted her and I was like, do you have anything
2:54:50
you'd like to add? And within 30
2:54:52
minutes, there was a whole docket sent to me of
2:54:54
everything she's been through to life. I remember when you
2:54:56
were doing that and I was like, how do you
2:54:59
know that? I don't share that story. And I'm like,
2:55:01
oh, right. Okay, I should have seen that coming.
2:55:04
I'm not kidding. She really was in 30 minutes.
2:55:06
It was a full stack of information. She's like,
2:55:08
let me get my folio out. I have a
2:55:10
full binder of information. It was enough where I
2:55:12
was like, there's no way you did this in
2:55:14
30 minutes. This is actually a
2:55:16
record. You've had
2:55:18
this waiting. Yeah. You've
2:55:20
had this waiting the whole time and I know it.
2:55:24
Well, anyway, good
2:55:26
story, my little shifter. Good
2:55:29
catching up with you in such a
2:55:31
horrible way. Yeah, let's go to the
2:55:34
after dark and talk about my psychic
2:55:38
readings I got. Was
2:55:41
I mentioned? No. Yes.
2:55:45
Okay. Well, I guess I'll listen anyway. Well,
2:55:47
we'll talk about it. Maybe you were. We'll talk
2:55:49
about it in the dark. Great.
2:55:51
Okay. All right. Well, well, yes. Anybody who
2:55:53
wants to go listen, please join our Patreon
2:55:56
or head over there. Oh, yeah. And
2:55:58
you're also invited. I
2:56:01
guess I guess that's it for this week, but next
2:56:03
time I see you Or
2:56:06
no, we've got one more episode and then next time
2:56:08
I will have departed with my mother And
2:56:13
I'll be tan and probably Scratched
2:56:16
up from some sort of thicker we get
2:56:19
into so brawl Yeah, I'm sort of brawling
2:56:21
my poor stepfather is just wishing he never
2:56:23
came on the boat. Okay, um,
2:56:26
he's got a margarita. He's fine and
2:56:29
That's why Hear
2:56:37
that it's the call of the craze and
2:56:40
when the crave calls You know what to
2:56:42
do try the five dollar bacon bundle because
2:56:44
the only thing better than a White Castle
2:56:46
Slider is a White Castle slider topped with
2:56:48
crispy hickory smoked bacon So pick any two
2:56:50
of either the bacon cheese slider 1921
2:56:54
bacon cheese slider or chicken bacon ranch slider
2:56:56
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2:56:58
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2:57:00
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2:57:02
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