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shopify.com/ system. Good

0:35

evening on what was a blockbuster day

0:40

in the criminal hush money trial, the

0:43

former president blockbuster, because after what has

0:45

at times been a meandering cross examination

0:47

of the prosecution's most important witness, Michael

0:49

Cohen, today Trump attorney Todd Blanche was

0:51

able to repeatedly raise questions about Cohen's

0:53

honesty, not just in the past,

0:55

but his honesty and his testimony before this jury

0:57

this week. I was in

0:59

the courtroom this morning, just before

1:01

the lunch break, Blanche presented text

1:03

messages to Cohen between him and

1:05

former Trump bodyguard Keith Schiller. The

1:07

messages were from October 24th, 2016, and

1:10

they appeared to contradict testimony Cohen gave

1:12

Monday on direct examination that goes to

1:14

the heart of the alleged scheme to

1:16

falsify business records. Earlier in

1:19

the week, Cohen testified about texting Schiller. He

1:21

said under oath that he needed to talk

1:23

to Trump urgently and Schiller was always by

1:25

his side. He testified that he used

1:27

Schiller's phone to speak to the former president. Cohen

1:30

told the jury in his earlier testimony that the

1:32

purpose of the call was, quote, "'To discuss the

1:34

Stormy Daniels matter "'and the resolution of it.'" But

1:37

today, Todd Blanche did something the prosecutors

1:39

had apparently not done, or at least

1:41

not discussed with Michael Cohen, and they're

1:43

questioning of him on the witness stand.

1:45

Blanche read previous text messages Cohen had

1:47

received shortly before he texted Schiller. They

1:50

showed that Cohen was responding to a

1:52

14-year-old crank caller who'd been pranking him

1:54

by phone for days. Cohen

1:56

texted Schiller, informing him about the prank

1:58

calls and wanting... help from Schiller

2:00

about the calls, and that appears as why he

2:03

then called Schiller. Blanche appeared to

2:05

have trapped Cohen, arguing that the subsequent

2:07

call between him and Schiller last only

2:09

96 seconds, and questioned whether, and

2:11

this quote comes to us from our reporters in

2:14

the room, you had enough time to update Schiller

2:16

about all the problems he were having and also

2:18

update President Trump about the status of the Stormy

2:20

Daniels situation. It's important to

2:22

remember that Cohen had never mentioned this

2:25

14-year-old crank caller in testimony. Blanche directly

2:27

stated that he lied under oath earlier

2:29

this week about speaking with end

2:31

candidate Trump on that day. It was

2:33

a major moment on a day that

2:35

saw several other notable developments, including that

2:37

sources tell CNN the defense may call

2:39

a former attorney for Cohen, Robert Casello,

2:41

to continue the defense argument that the

2:43

one-time fixer for the former president is

2:45

a liar. However, the judge

2:47

also suggested summations could begin next week.

2:50

There's a lot to talk to with our

2:52

panel. Joining us is Robert Ray, former president's

2:54

counsel during his first impeachment trial, former

2:56

federal prosecutor Jeffrey Tubman, CNN anchor Abby Phillip,

2:58

also three more who witnessed that pivotal moment

3:01

in a courtroom today. Let's see, and anchor

3:04

Caitlin Collins went after the lunch break. Norm

3:06

Eisen, who was the counsel to House Democrats

3:08

during that first impeachment, was there this morning

3:10

and correspondent Kara Scannell. Kara,

3:12

was that moment the one that stood

3:14

out to you? Oh, by far, absolutely.

3:17

I mean, it was the big moment of the

3:19

day. And the way that Todd Blanche did it,

3:21

he spent a lot of the morning on these

3:23

inconsistent statements, drawing out

3:25

when Michael Cohen made a lie. And then he

3:27

gets to this phone call, and he begins by

3:30

saying, you spoke with the former — you testified

3:32

on Monday you spoke with Trump on the 24th.

3:35

Cohen says yes. And he says, do you

3:37

remember, was it on speakerphone or did Schiller

3:39

hand the phone? Cohen's like, oh, I don't

3:42

remember. So he's setting it up in such

3:44

a way that you think you're going back

3:46

to this. And then he says, and

3:48

what about these text messages? And then

3:50

goes exactly as you just described, just

3:53

confronting Cohen with these text messages. And

3:55

the time stamps that were so close

3:57

and that showed Keith Schiller saying they

3:59

had him. And Cohen's complaining about this 14-year-old

4:01

calling. And Schiller says, at 802, call me.

4:04

Cohen calls him at 802. It's

4:06

a 96-second phone call.

4:09

And Cohen then says, well, you know, and

4:11

Blanche is just building to this crescendo. He

4:14

is, you know, focusing in on

4:16

this on Cohen. And he's like, admit

4:18

it, you lied. You made up this

4:20

call. And Cohen says, you

4:22

know, I'm not sure that's accurate. Later

4:24

on, he tried to correct that a bit

4:26

and said that the reason why he remembered

4:29

this specifically was because this was, as he

4:31

put it, you know, so important, such a,

4:33

you know, a critical thing.

4:35

And so he had it in his memory. He's

4:37

been telling the story for six years. I'm

4:40

not sure that that did the job, though.

4:42

Norm, I mean, did you believe Michael Cohen

4:44

in what his response to this was? Because

4:46

his response basically evolved into, well, I was

4:48

doing both. You know, when he was cornered,

4:50

he could have basically either said, you know

4:54

what, I misremembered this, which would have been

4:56

devastating. Or what he did, which was I

4:59

did both. I both talked to Keith Schiller

5:01

about this 14 year old boy who I

5:03

want to get vengeance against, which was bizarre

5:05

enough. And

5:08

I had time to tell President Trump this

5:10

crucial piece of information, which is I'm going

5:12

ahead with the Stormy deal and Trump

5:15

agreed. And

5:17

there was a ferocious debate

5:19

in the courtroom between the

5:21

people who thought it was a

5:23

true Perry Mason moment and some

5:26

in my row who said, eh,

5:29

really? Yes. George, our friend George

5:31

Conway, he said, what is everybody

5:33

getting so excited about? I

5:37

will tell you, George,

5:39

I will tell you.

5:42

I think the same debate is erupting as

5:44

in a row, we did anything else sitting

5:46

just just in front of Anderson. I know. I

5:49

wanted to grab you and be like, oh, my

5:51

God, Norm, are you hearing this? We had a

5:53

quick conversation about it. It was a good moment

5:55

of cross. It was a very professional and powerful

5:57

moment of cross. if

6:00

Cohen had been shown those texts

6:03

by the prosecution on

6:05

the direct examination, if they had

6:08

refreshed his recollection, there's nothing

6:11

implausible about discussing both subjects.

6:16

It seems like a huge mistake

6:18

by prosecutors. It was not the

6:20

best, it was not their finest.

6:23

Did they not look at what the text that is?

6:26

No, it was not their finest

6:28

moment. My experience has

6:30

been, it was a blow

6:32

on the chin, but my experience, 30

6:34

years of doing this, is that it

6:36

takes more than one punch to knock

6:38

out a witness. This is a witness

6:41

that the jury had believed. I

6:44

was watching the jury at the time. I did

6:46

not think it was a knockout blow. Here's the

6:48

thing. If

6:50

I'm a juror, and again, it's impossible to

6:53

read these jurors, but if I'm a juror,

6:55

and I've heard, and I've been

6:57

warned that Michael Cohen lies, the prosecutors have

6:59

said this, they've set it up, I'm prepared

7:02

for that. I'm prepared for he's lied

7:04

in the past repeatedly. I

7:06

don't know if a juror is prepared for he lied

7:09

to this jury two days ago, but

7:12

now he's really telling the truth. I

7:14

mean, I don't know. Does that, does

7:16

a juror make a difference between, oh

7:18

yeah, those are his old lies, but

7:20

he's really now telling the truth. Jurors

7:22

understand, and he cleaned this up in

7:24

the afternoon. He tried to. He was

7:26

stronger after lunch. Memory is

7:28

not perfect, okay? People do

7:31

not have perfect recollections,

7:34

and we are gonna get redirects.

7:37

We're almost all witnesses except for an

7:39

inveterate liar. So that's a really hard

7:41

argument to make. Let

7:43

me just argue one other thing, before I, it's

7:45

gonna leave my mind, which is if

7:48

this phone call, his

7:50

testimony previously was, it

7:53

was so urgent that I talked to Trump because

7:55

I got to check in with the boss

7:57

on everything I do, and I'm going forward

7:59

with these stormy. Daniel's payment and he's got to approve

8:01

it. So I'm calling him now. It's going to

8:03

be a quick phone call. I call

8:05

Keith Schiller because I want to talk to the boss.

8:08

If that was so urgent in his mind,

8:11

why is he obsessing about a 14 year

8:13

old boy who's allegedly prank calling him and

8:15

contacting Keith Schiller saying, I got to talk

8:17

to you about this weird phone number that

8:20

shows up. It's not, I got to talk

8:22

to the boss or something really urgent. Uh,

8:25

and you know, calling Keith Schiller and talking

8:27

to the boss. And then after that conversation

8:29

is over, she'll, you know, saying to Schiller,

8:31

oh, by the way, there's this phone number.

8:33

It's not, it seems like the,

8:35

the, the 14 year old boy is the reason

8:38

he's calling. What they're asking, I mean, you just

8:40

basically made the defense's case for them. Memories are

8:42

not perfect. That is exactly what they're saying to

8:44

Michael Cohen, that your memory is not perfect and

8:46

you don't remember exactly that you even spoke to

8:48

Donald Trump on this phone call. I mean, his

8:50

most devastating line after the text of the 14

8:52

year old was, I believe I spoke with Mr.

8:54

Trump, he didn't even double down on it after

8:57

he was pressed on it. And so

8:59

that is exactly their entire case here that they've

9:01

been saying, Michael Cohen, how can you not remember

9:03

this? But then you remember this phone call with

9:05

Donald Trump. The best part across examination

9:07

was Todd Blanche's follow-up, which was the

9:09

jury is not interested in what you

9:11

believe. The jury, which he got

9:14

objected on. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It

9:16

does. Those are, that's the kind of comment

9:18

that you make. You don't care whether that

9:21

objection sustained, you're communicating to the jury. And

9:23

he said that, right? Looking at the jurors.

9:25

Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I, I, as Caitlin said,

9:27

look, I think the issue

9:29

with Michael Cohen is that particularly when

9:32

you have animus toward another person, which

9:34

they have demonstrated pretty clearly, it

9:37

is also plausible for the jury to believe that

9:39

your memory is colored by your

9:42

desire to see Donald Trump behind

9:44

bars. And that's why this moment

9:46

I think is so devastating because

9:48

he is so crystal clear on

9:50

everything that is bad for

9:52

Donald Trump's case, but on

9:55

everything from the mundane to other

9:57

things that apparently at the time he was really worked up.

10:00

about, he cannot remember it. And that is

10:02

both a problem from the cases perspective, but

10:04

I just think in general from Michael Cohen,

10:06

this is the issue with him, is that

10:08

you cannot always be sure, you know, yes,

10:10

he's been telling this story for six years,

10:12

but in those six years, he's been trying

10:14

to get Donald Trump convicted of crime. It

10:16

was also fascinating in the courtroom today because I

10:19

had not, I must admit, I have not listened

10:21

to Michael Cohen's podcast, Maya Culpa, but

10:25

it was shocking, but it

10:27

was play, a moment of it was

10:29

played in the courtroom today. And it

10:31

was so fascinating because, you know, Michael

10:34

Cohen's testimony has been very even keeled,

10:36

very rational, very yes ma'am, no sir,

10:38

all this. And suddenly they

10:41

played this thing and there's a guy

10:43

screaming in the room, like

10:46

using the raps. No, it's

10:48

just normal, my phone's regular. I was like,

10:50

how Michael Cohen was on the podcast? Somebody

10:52

who does a podcast, I was like, is

10:54

this his actual normal speaking voice in a

10:57

podcast? Because it's literally

10:59

yelling and it's

11:01

clearly written down because he's speaking

11:03

in a way that's not, so he's written

11:05

down these yells, like it's gotta

11:07

be all in caps. I mean, it was shocking. I

11:09

was like, it was- Between

11:12

that, just the volume of him

11:14

and compared with his very close

11:16

demeanor, that was, I also

11:18

was like, whoa. I mean, it filled the courtroom.

11:20

I don't know if somebody turned up the volume too loud.

11:22

I was like, did they, is this intentionally

11:24

too loud? I'm totally having a clip of the

11:26

podcast. Let's play it and play it loud because

11:29

it was quite loud in the courtroom, I

11:31

gotta tell you. I'm not gonna do volume. I

11:35

truly hope that this man ends up in

11:37

prison. It won't bring back the

11:39

year that I lost or the damage done

11:41

to my family, but revenge is

11:43

a dish that's sort of cold. And

11:45

you better believe I want this man to go down

11:48

and rot and stifle what he did to me and

11:50

my family. So yeah,

11:52

that's what was played in court. You think he's a little

11:54

biased? I don't know. But

11:56

there is, I think, a fundamental question

11:58

about... as a

12:01

witness, which is, is the jury gonna

12:03

listen to him and the

12:05

cross and the history of lying and say, the hell

12:07

with this guy? I mean, just write him off. Or

12:10

are they gonna say, look, you

12:12

know, he's had this traumatic experience,

12:15

he went to prison because he

12:17

thought he was helping Donald Trump.

12:19

Let's parse each statement and see

12:21

whether those statements are corroborated. And

12:24

this is really, I think, the prosecution's great

12:26

hope, and this is why they examined

12:28

him the way they did on

12:30

direct, which was scaffolding his

12:33

testimony with text messages, phone

12:36

records. Now, the big problem with

12:38

today is those text messages

12:40

came back to bite him, at least in

12:42

this one exchange, but it is also worth

12:44

mentioning that, you know, he had years

12:47

of contact with Donald Trump. It's

12:50

not in debate that whether he could,

12:52

you know, whether he was in touch

12:54

with him, if he's mistaken about this

12:56

one phone call, one prosecution response is,

12:58

so what? No, no, no. He

13:01

was in touch for 10 years. But it's not

13:03

just this one phone call. And one, you also

13:05

have to remember, there are two attorneys on this

13:07

jury who are listening to, Michael Cohen admit that

13:10

he agrees, it's unethical for an attorney to record

13:12

their client. They're listening to that. Todd Blanche is

13:14

trying to catch him in other inconsistencies. He seems

13:16

like he's about to catch him in another lie

13:18

on Monday. This is something I'm watching, because he

13:20

asked him about recording conversations with reporters, which Michael

13:22

Cohen said he did pretty often, but he said

13:25

he stopped after the 2016 campaign. And

13:28

then Todd Blanche pressed him on that. He said, I

13:30

would have to check. And Todd Blanche responded

13:32

with this knowing tone, well, we'll check together

13:35

in a minute. So it seems like he's

13:37

just catching up with that. Maybe it doesn't

13:39

change the actual documents, but it could really

13:41

undermine the credibility. Kaitlin, you

13:43

know, this is a controversial view,

13:46

but attorneys are also human beings.

13:48

And they understand that sometimes people

13:50

do stupid things. Sometimes people say

13:52

things when they're angry, and

13:56

they hold grudges. That doesn't mean every word

13:58

they say is a lie. And

14:00

that's the challenge for the prosecutors to say, look,

14:02

we know he lied. And they brought out a

14:04

lot of that on direct. Unfortunately for them, not

14:07

everything. I mean, they certainly should have brought out

14:09

this whole thing about the 14-year-old. But,

14:11

you know, this wasn't a

14:14

total surprise to the jury,

14:16

I suspect. Obviously, I don't know. And

14:18

that's why this case from day one,

14:20

starting with David Becker and the August

14:22

2015 meeting in Trump

14:24

Tower, where you

14:26

have Becker agreeing that

14:29

there is going to

14:31

be this activity, this catch-and-kill activity

14:33

to benefit the campaign. And

14:36

going all throughout the

14:38

testimony, with those

14:40

corroborating notes in Allen Weisselberg's

14:43

hand, this is

14:45

one tile in a mosaic. And

14:47

even today, Cohen was much stronger

14:49

in the afternoon. And

14:52

the jury does not necessarily

14:55

fixate on that one

14:57

moment. Well, it's also interesting, because all

14:59

during the, I mean, until the exciting

15:01

end right before the lunch break, I

15:03

kept sitting there wondering, well, all Todd

15:05

Blanche is talking about is just, you

15:08

know, lies by Michael Cohen about

15:10

things in general, not anything to

15:12

do with a document that was

15:14

signed about Stormy Daniels or anything to do

15:16

with Stormy Daniels or anything to do with

15:18

hush money payments. And to me, it felt

15:20

very meandering. And, you know, I was

15:23

like, OK, yeah, we know the guy has lied

15:25

a lot. And that's kind of a big thing.

15:27

Except for one thing, and

15:29

that's another blockbuster area

15:31

of this testimony, which I think is extraordinary,

15:33

doesn't seem to be something many people have

15:35

picked up on. And that

15:37

is the following. It

15:39

is an extraordinary thing, in my experience,

15:41

for a cooperating witness to take the

15:43

stand and admit under

15:46

oath at a trial that

15:48

they pleaded guilty to something

15:50

that they didn't commit. In

15:52

other words, perjuring themselves at the time of the

15:55

plea allocation. Now, look, I know there's all kinds

15:57

of stuff here about replaying the

15:59

how many How many times can he be untruthful, and

16:01

how many times is he untruthful under oath? But I have

16:03

to tell you, I mean, at least

16:05

as I learned being a prosecutor, if you

16:07

have a cooperating witness that can't tell the truth

16:10

of the plea allocation, that means that that

16:13

witness is basically worthless. He testified. He

16:15

lied to the judge in

16:18

this prior case. Denying

16:20

that his plea was voluntary. And then when

16:22

Todd Blanche asked him, well, what

16:25

do you think the judge would have thought of you,

16:27

you know, don't you think the judge would like to

16:29

have known you were lying? I mean, don't you think

16:31

that would have impacted his decision? And it would have.

16:34

And Michael Cohen was like, I don't know. No, he said the judge

16:36

was in on it. Yeah, oh, God. He said the

16:38

assistant US attorneys and the judge was in on it.

16:40

I mean, and that's why then. And

16:43

then Todd Blanche is cross-examination. So basically, whenever

16:45

you get into a problem, it's always blame

16:47

somebody else, blame President Trump, blame the judge,

16:49

blame the Justice Department, blame the US Attorney's

16:51

Office for the Southern District of New York,

16:54

blame Congress. I mean, how many places do

16:56

you have to go where this guy has

16:58

lied many times under oath and it's always

17:00

somebody else's fault? It's not his fault. I

17:02

mean, I've got to tell you, in summation,

17:05

that's pretty powerful evidence

17:08

to a jury to say you shouldn't believe anything

17:10

this guy says. And if you have to

17:12

rely on his testimony in any fashion whatsoever

17:14

in order to convict Donald Trump, i.e., in

17:16

order to fix Donald Trump's intent, you have

17:19

a reasonable doubt. You can't have anything else

17:21

but a reasonable doubt. And

17:23

yet in that moment, when Blanche tried

17:25

to push him and said, so you're

17:27

not accepting responsibility, he said, I do

17:30

accept responsibility. He stood up to Blanche.

17:32

For the facts. But he doesn't accept

17:34

responsibility, Norm, for the most important thing,

17:36

which is he's saying that

17:38

he didn't plead guilty to a crime

17:41

and coincidentally think. No. His

17:44

words say that he accepts responsibility. He

17:46

was strong in pushing back his life.

17:48

His actual thoughts don't seem to accept

17:50

responsibility. There you go. He

17:52

uses the phrase, I accept full

17:54

responsibility constantly. And there can't be any daylight

17:56

there, because if there is daylight, that is

17:59

a huge problem. We'll probably get a break

18:01

in. We're going to have a lot more Caris Canel.

18:03

Thank you so much. As always, everyone else is going

18:05

to stay here. So the comm we just received the

18:07

image, the defense use of that text co-incensus show about

18:10

the crank color. We'll show you that plus John Berman

18:12

is going through today's transcripts. Grief

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19:54

A short time ago, we received images of

19:56

that tax exchange between Michael Cohen and then

19:58

candidate Trump's bodyguard Keith Schiller. defense attorneys

20:00

showed today. Again, it was to prove their assertion

20:02

that Cohen did not ask to speak to Trump

20:05

about Stormy Daniels as he testified earlier in the

20:07

week, but he wanted to talk to the

20:09

bodyguard actually, to Keith Schiller about a

20:12

crank call or a

20:14

series of crank calls. This is the key

20:16

moment quoting Cohen's text, who can I speak

20:18

to regarding harassing calls to my cell in

20:20

office? The dope forgot to block his call

20:22

on one of them. The call was,

20:24

these calls were allegedly by a 14

20:26

year old. After that, Keith Schiller texts

20:28

Michael Cohen saying, call me. And

20:31

shortly after a minute, seconds later, there's

20:33

a call from Michael Cohen to Keith Schiller,

20:36

which he had previously testified was a call

20:38

to get to Trump to tell him important

20:40

news that he was moving ahead on the

20:42

payments to Stormy Daniels. And he claimed that

20:44

Trump had agreed. We're joined now by John

20:46

Berman, who has more on

20:48

this moment, although the full text of

20:51

this cross examination that was so momentous

20:54

is not out. We have almost all

20:56

of today's transcript except this part,

20:58

as you can imagine, which is very frustrating. But

21:00

answering you did a great job explaining it based

21:02

on what you and others have reported from inside

21:04

the courtroom. Look, he, Todd

21:07

Blanche, went after Michael Cohen on this. Michael

21:09

Cohen basically said, I know that Keith was

21:11

with Mr. Trump at the time and that

21:14

was, there was more potentially than this. In

21:16

other words, more potentially than me just talking

21:18

to Keith about the kid. Maybe I talked

21:20

to him about something else. Then

21:23

he said, I always ran everything by the boss

21:25

immediately. And in this case, it would have been

21:27

saying everything's been taken care of. It's been resolved.

21:29

And then he ultimately had to win. He goes

21:32

based on what was going on, based on the

21:34

text message and so on, based on the other

21:36

text messages about Stormy Daniels matter. That is

21:38

how we came to the conclusion that he

21:41

talked to Trump about Stormy Daniels

21:43

on this phone call. It was all

21:45

the other things. Blanche challenged Cohen to

21:47

confirm that his trial testimony was based

21:49

on materials. Prosecutors showed him in preparation

21:51

from questioning. Right. This was an important

21:54

moment because then Blanche is saying, well,

21:56

wait a minute. So

21:58

you're only testifying to the... this phone

22:00

call because prosecutors showed you a

22:02

call log that had this phone

22:04

call, and you're claiming that that

22:06

basically jarred your memory of this

22:09

crucial phone call. This is the

22:11

setup to the cross-examination to follow.

22:13

And he said, yes, that refreshed

22:15

my recollection. Right. Well, we

22:17

do. But it didn't refresh

22:19

his recollection of the 14-year-old caller.

22:21

Can I ask you a question?

22:24

What is the ultimate significance of...

22:26

Let's assume he just lied about all this.

22:30

Does this mean that Donald Trump didn't

22:32

know that he was reimbursing...

22:35

No, but it's... That he's claiming this

22:37

was one of the examples, this was

22:39

a key moment when he directly told

22:41

Donald Trump, I'm going ahead

22:43

with his payments, and Trump approved

22:46

it. And Trump... How much did

22:48

I do it? But we have

22:50

abundant proof, including Trump's own words,

22:52

in a tweet, in a

22:57

financial disclosure form from the White House,

22:59

where he says, I reimbursed Michael

23:02

Cohen for this. So why is that

23:04

in the suit? You have

23:07

additional communications the next day with

23:09

Cohen, Davidson, Howard, and Pekka, and

23:12

then you have two direct calls

23:14

on the 26th, at 8.26 AM and 8.34 AM. And

23:18

that was when he was making the transfer. I

23:21

actually had the transfer to that call two days

23:23

later, where COVID was asked, did

23:25

you call Mr. Trump before you went and

23:27

set up the account to make the transfer?

23:29

He goes, yes. What substance did

23:31

you discuss with him on these two calls? Cohen

23:34

said, direct, I wanted to ensure, once again,

23:36

he approved of what I was doing because

23:39

I required approval from him on all of

23:41

this. By the way, I should also point

23:43

out earlier that morning, I guess, before that,

23:45

he texted Keith Schiller back, pursuing the family

23:48

of the 14-year-old phone caller. He seems very

23:50

obsessed on this phone call. Please Don't Do

23:52

This. I'm 14 years old. Yeah, literally. So That

23:54

was when that morning, that moment happened, and then

23:56

they went to break, which is a great moment

23:58

for the defense to end. And on obviously.

24:00

Then they come back in the room

24:03

and Todd Blanche greeted Michael Pollan. When

24:05

you that the witness said his voice

24:07

invoices barely audible. He Michael Jones, He

24:09

he's a good afternoon. Mr. Cohen and

24:11

Michael Gone are funded. Sister. Blanche

24:13

for you could barely hear in the courtroom

24:15

obviously speaking into a microphone. and then the

24:17

Texan up in redacted when you were still

24:19

the court reasonably. they showed the mothers green,

24:21

they redacted the what they needed to during

24:23

lunch break so then they put them up

24:26

on the screen and made Michael Cohen read

24:28

what he was texting the fourteen year old

24:30

that even when the kids that he was

24:32

fourteen allegedly the Michael gone responded well. You

24:34

need to tell your parent or guardian that

24:36

the Secret Service is now responsible for handling

24:38

this and it just kind of feel this

24:40

is moment where it's the jury doesn't often.

24:43

Show a lot and they clearly were a kind

24:45

of experiencing the same road. had the same look

24:47

at that you had when you take. Manager.

24:50

Reserve what would any up and for obvious

24:52

reasons. I mean let's not forget this is

24:54

from two thousand and sixteen. Were.

24:56

In two thousand, Twenty four. This.

24:58

Is eight years ago so you know,

25:00

refreshing somebody, his recollection with a text

25:02

message will do. You really remember that

25:05

this is what happened? I mean you

25:07

know that's the whole point of the

25:09

cross examination. You basically testify here because

25:11

the prosecution showed you a bunch of

25:13

documents and stuff and your ginger. You're

25:15

so you're telling us what you remember

25:17

editor and if you had been shown

25:19

those documents wouldn't be able to find

25:21

anything about about Norms Point that it

25:23

was insists this one phone call. It

25:25

was a whole series of phone calls

25:27

right around this time at exactly. The

25:29

time see is it is transferring

25:31

the money is that all made

25:34

up to and I know and

25:36

the testimony that co and put

25:38

in in his direct about this

25:41

call was very. General testimony. He

25:43

was not purporting to. Remember

25:45

exactly what was said back

25:47

and forth. I think in

25:49

the I understand the the

25:51

mental excitement of that moment

25:54

of confrontation, but I think

25:56

in the larger scheme of

25:58

things, this gigantic mosaic. That

26:00

corroborates Michael Cohen still of any

26:02

other explanation for what Trump was

26:04

doing, the later corroborating statements, a

26:06

long series of witnesses, the many

26:08

documents I don't believe the jury

26:10

is going to seize on it.

26:12

If you add one, two, three

26:14

four knockout punch it of yes

26:16

you want to laid Cohen flats.

26:18

This was just wonder if it

26:20

comes out of my. Here's my

26:22

thing about where about this statement and

26:25

also just about Michael Cohen in general.

26:28

There's. Abundant evidence The Donald Trump knew

26:30

about that. Such funny payments. But that

26:32

is not the issue here. The issue

26:34

is the falsification of business records and

26:36

of the from my understanding of the

26:38

evidence is really one key moment where

26:40

Michael Cohen basically makes the case that

26:42

Donald Trump understood that it was going

26:45

to be fraudulently put on the books

26:47

as legal fees and that was a

26:49

meeting that he had with Alan Weisberg

26:51

and Donald Trump. They're only three people

26:53

who know what goes on there. One

26:55

of them is the defendants, the other

26:57

one is not. Going to testify and the

26:59

other one is Michael Cohen and so. It

27:02

almost sounds a lawyer and less you

27:04

believe Michael Cohen with regard to that,

27:06

That evidence and for and the defense

27:09

is going to make the argument in

27:11

summation with his testimony is worthless and

27:13

these are the examples. And you. He's

27:16

trying to gild the Lillian. He's He's

27:18

testifying and making it up and less.

27:20

You can believe beyond reasonable doubt that

27:22

that conversation happened. And so there's proof

27:25

of that. Happened the way that mind. The

27:27

way he said right? Happy because it's

27:29

only that way which would prove Donald

27:32

Trump's intense. There's no way. That.

27:34

A jury would convict on that evidence

27:36

unanimously. Beyond reasonable doubt, that's gonna be.

27:38

Like. and that is why the doubt

27:41

that is put on the table by

27:43

michael collins the recollection of a conversation

27:45

that he describes as being pivotal is

27:47

look i mean the bar so low

27:49

for the defense to just say to

27:51

convince one juror that there is not

27:54

enough evidence i'm not saying that the

27:56

preponderance of evidence is the donald trump

27:58

knew what was going on that there

28:00

is a common sense view that one

28:02

could have, that he understood that this was not going

28:04

to be put on the books correctly. But

28:06

in this court, it

28:09

takes much less than that to get a juror to

28:11

say, I don't know if I can believe this guy

28:13

about this one really critical conversation

28:15

that has to do with how the

28:17

records, how the payments were structured so that

28:19

the records could be falsified. That's the

28:21

main problem, I think, right now for the

28:23

prosecution. We'll have more transcripts later. John Berman, thanks

28:26

so much. Coming up, how the

28:28

jury may view a potential witness for the

28:30

defense who testified before Congress yesterday disputing Michael

28:32

Coombs' own sworn testimony in the

28:34

Hush Money trial. That's it.

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search and supply, visit the website for

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more details. As

29:37

we've been discussing, Michael Cohen's credibility came under attack

29:39

today as Trump defense attorney Todd Blanch grilled him

29:41

over key text messages in a phone call in

29:43

October 2016. While the prosecution

29:46

would like to present Cohen as a reformed

29:48

liar, there are new questions certainly raised today

29:50

about some of the testimony he gave in

29:52

this trial earlier this week. This also

29:54

includes Cohen's testimony on Tuesday when he claimed

29:56

that he was given advice by attorney Robert

29:58

Costello in 2018. And that

30:00

Castello was using his connections to Rudy

30:03

Giuliani, and by extension former President Trump,

30:05

to pressure Cohen not to flip. On

30:08

Wednesday, Castello appeared before the House subcommittee

30:10

on the so-called weaponization of the federal

30:12

government to dispute that. The

30:15

story he told yesterday was that

30:17

Rudy Giuliani and I were somehow

30:19

conspiring to try and keep him

30:21

quiet, to try and keep him from flipping. That's

30:23

the term we use in the trade for cooperating.

30:27

That's ridiculous. I asked for a meeting with

30:31

District Attorney Bragg because I wanted to go in

30:33

there, let him look me in the eye, and

30:35

let me explain all of the stuff that we

30:37

had on Michael Cohen that showed that he's an

30:40

inveterate liar. Amazing. The

30:43

business guy, he was representing him and

30:45

he's calling his client an inveterate liar.

30:48

Was he actually technically representing him? Pretty,

30:51

that's what I thought. That's certainly

30:53

what he was. But the emails,

30:56

the Castello emails are like a

30:58

witness. The defense may

31:00

call him now. Although isn't it

31:03

weird that they had this testimony

31:05

to get this testimony out there? Apparently

31:08

the privilege was waived. I don't know

31:10

exactly how that happened. That's what I

31:12

am. It would be pretty unusual to

31:14

call a witness to impeach

31:20

another witness on cross-examination. We'll see

31:22

if the judge allows it. But

31:24

Castello, if he comes, his

31:26

emails to Cohen

31:29

are the most extraordinary. It's like

31:31

a cookbook for witness, Amber. It's

31:33

like a soprano. It's

31:36

exactly like a soprano. By the

31:38

way, I forgot to introduce for not a severe

31:40

jury in trial. Sorry.

31:43

I apologize. To you, what did you think of

31:45

today? Look,

31:53

Michael Cohen got absolutely hammered today. But

31:56

he's a liar, is not a theory of

31:58

defense. know, what is

32:00

the theory of defense? You know, they opened,

32:03

as I've said, that these were legitimate legal

32:05

fees. There's been no evidence of that. Michael

32:07

Cohen is sticking to the story that I

32:09

did no legal work for them. So hammering

32:11

Michael Cohen and saying he's a liar, don't

32:13

– I think the jury thinks, you know,

32:16

he is a liar. Maybe

32:18

they have questions about some of these phone

32:20

calls. But there's other corroborating evidence, and I

32:22

still don't understand what the theory is. And

32:25

we all know you have to have a theory of

32:27

defense if you want to win a criminal case. Well,

32:29

that was, Jeffrey, your argument all along, which is, okay,

32:31

the prosecution has put forth a set of, you

32:34

know, facts, believe them or not. What

32:37

is the defense argument? Exactly. And

32:39

there are certain undisputed facts in this

32:42

case, the two most important of which

32:44

are Michael

32:46

Cohen paid Stormy Daniels $130,000. No

32:49

one is going to dispute that. The

32:51

other undisputed fact is that

32:53

Donald Trump paid Michael Cohen

32:55

$420,000. Is

32:58

there any explanation in front of

33:00

the jury other than this was

33:02

a reimbursement for what –

33:05

for what he paid out?

33:07

Now that means that the documents are

33:10

false. That means that the corporate documents

33:12

are false. The issue in the case

33:14

is did Donald Trump know or cause

33:16

those documents to be false? That

33:19

to me is the only disputed issue in this

33:21

case because the rest of it is just proof.

33:23

And Jeffrey, you know the other point of that

33:25

that was raised today, and it'll be fascinating to

33:27

see how the prosecution handles this, is

33:30

Todd Blanche grilled Michael Cohen on what he

33:32

testified recently. Was that, you know, in 2017,

33:34

2018, he was barely doing any legal work for

33:37

the Trump family, but he never had a retainer.

33:39

Well, Todd Blanche went back and said, okay, but

33:41

ever since you worked at the Trump organization, when

33:43

he left his law firm the day he met

33:45

Trump and went to try to get a job

33:47

there, he never had a retainer. Michael Cohen said

33:50

that was correct. And Todd Blanche was trying

33:52

to make the point where you've never had a retainer, so it's

33:54

not unusual that you didn't have one in 2017 and 2018.

33:58

But then the question that I had sitting in a- there in

34:00

the courtroom was, well, when Michael Cohen sent those

34:02

invoices to Allen Weisselberg, they were paid pursuant to

34:04

a legal retainer. It said it on every check.

34:06

We looked at all 11 of them. And

34:09

so the question I would have for

34:11

the defense there is, okay, well, then why was he

34:13

being paid pursuant to a retainer if he's never had

34:16

a retainer? No, no, no, no. Because there was

34:18

no retainer. It's a lie with the bank. Hold on a

34:20

second. That was Susan Hoffinger. That wasn't the issue. That

34:22

wasn't the issue. The issue is whether there's a written retainer

34:25

agreement, not whether or not there's, that he's been retained. No,

34:27

he said he's never had a retainer, period. No, no, no,

34:29

no. I was there, top-lanched, drilled

34:31

down all the time today. But what he means

34:33

by that is there was no written retainer agreement.

34:36

But here's the answer. He's not clear that he

34:38

didn't. He wasn't retained by Trump to be a

34:40

lawyer. Five things are weird. It's

34:42

just kind of a sideshow. It's not like that

34:44

big a deal, really, in the legal field, whether

34:46

or not you have a return or yeah, you

34:48

should have. But what legal, I

34:50

think the defense painted themselves into a corner.

34:52

What did he do? And what did Donald

34:54

Trump think that he was writing

34:57

those $35,000 checks for? What did he think

34:59

he was paying for? And we don't have

35:01

any answer to that. Do

35:04

you think it was effective for Todd

35:06

Blanche to push the

35:08

cross-examination all the way to

35:11

the end of the day so that tomorrow there's

35:13

no court? And Norm, you brought this up in

35:15

the elevator during the lunch break. You were like,

35:17

he should push it all the way so that

35:19

they spend three days ruminating on the lives of

35:21

Michael Cohen. Look,

35:24

you can look at it both ways. In some ways,

35:26

I think I would have gotten him off the stand

35:28

and ended with him and just been done with him.

35:30

Then you get some distance. And then if you're going

35:32

to put on a defense case, maybe they're going to

35:35

call an expert, they say, I don't know, some election

35:37

expert. Then you start

35:39

fresh on Monday because the prosecution would

35:41

have had to get up today and

35:44

do their redirect. It's a little tougher to

35:46

do it when you don't have three days

35:48

to prepare because sure, the defense is reviewing

35:50

the transcript, but guess who else is? The

35:52

prosecution. And they're going to figure out all

35:54

the things they need to fix on Monday.

35:56

So what would have been maybe a 45-minute

35:59

redirect? might be an hour and a

36:01

half redirect on Monday now that you gave them

36:03

those three decades. Yeah, maybe, but I

36:05

don't, if the prosecution had done

36:07

redirect today, they wouldn't have finished.

36:09

Can I? It would still have

36:12

gone over to next week. On

36:14

Caitlin's very interesting retainer point, this

36:16

is one of the most obscure

36:18

areas of law. The reason-

36:20

Which makes your eyes spurt. It does. I

36:22

would've talked to you about it in the

36:25

elevator. I would've cornered you in the elevator.

36:27

You're all of retainer letters. The

36:31

reason he didn't need a retainer was

36:33

because he was employed by

36:36

the Trump organization. He was in-house.

36:38

In-house lawyers don't need a retainer

36:40

letter. When you leave under New

36:42

York rules, you are

36:44

supposed to have a written retainer.

36:46

So it is proof that he

36:48

was not actually doing legal work

36:50

that he didn't have a written

36:53

retainer letter. That's why Hoffinger closed.

36:55

That was one of her last

36:57

points in the closing. You're saying that

36:59

when he was working for Trump at the time, he

37:02

didn't need one. He didn't, because he was- But he

37:04

didn't have one. Yeah, he was in-house. At Trump

37:06

org. At Trump org, yeah. So that

37:08

was one of the many Todd

37:10

Blanche lines of questioning that fell

37:12

flat today. There were times when

37:14

the jury was bored. There was

37:16

a lot of questioning too about

37:18

what Michael Cohen wanted after

37:21

the election. What position he wanted in the

37:23

White House. There was a lot of testimony about that, which I

37:25

thought, I didn't

37:27

see it going anywhere. Did you? I mean-

37:30

It was interminable and it

37:32

led no place. I mean, Michael Cohen

37:34

kept saying, I wanted to be personal

37:37

attorney to Donald J. Trump, which a

37:39

line he repeated- I

37:41

like your impression. I lost

37:43

interest in it halfway. And

37:46

they were claiming, no, you want it to be special

37:48

counsel. And that was a phrase his daughter

37:50

had used. I mean, it just seemed- I

37:52

think it would also be a mistake for the defense

37:55

to try to weirdly convince the

37:57

jury that this wasn't about the election.

37:59

I mean- That is also one of the

38:01

things that I think is kind of settled. Like,

38:03

we know... I mean, look,

38:06

they say they're gonna call this election expert.

38:08

I think the judge is gonna allow them

38:10

to call... I think it's Bradley Smith in

38:12

his order. He said that they can call

38:15

him to say, you know, this

38:17

is how the Federal Election

38:19

Commission works. These are some of the

38:21

definitions. But there's one definition that I

38:23

think you need to watch out for,

38:25

and what is a personal expense versus

38:28

a business expense. And the

38:30

election law says, and it's 52 U.S.C. 30114, and

38:35

it says it's a personal expense if

38:37

you would have made it irrespective of

38:40

your campaign. And the argument that

38:42

they've been trying to weave in, the defense,

38:44

is that he would have made this payment

38:46

to Stormy Daniels to protect his family, to

38:49

protect Melania. So I think they're gonna try

38:51

and argue he would have made this payment,

38:53

irrespective of the campaign, therefore it is not

38:55

a campaign finance violation. And therefore, by the

38:57

way, the Federal Election Commission would have agreed

38:59

on whether they'll be able to get that

39:02

in. It sounds unlikely. But if you had

39:04

gone to the Federal Election Commission and truthfully

39:06

disclosed, we want to make this payment to

39:08

Stormy Daniels. We want her to go away.

39:10

We think that it may have some effect on

39:12

the outcome of the election. Will

39:14

you approve this as a campaign expenditure? The FEC would

39:17

have looked at them like, what are you, out of

39:19

your mind? So it can't both

39:21

be what the prosecution is. It

39:24

can't both be, wait a second, this

39:26

is a concealed campaign expenditure if

39:29

the people who sort of make those fine

39:31

judgments are like, wait, no, of course it's

39:33

a personal expense. I mean, you know, the

39:36

John Edwards case is essentially proof of that.

39:38

Exactly, the John Edwards case then creates an

39:40

interesting legal issue. And I think

39:42

that's one reason why you strategize to have

39:44

those two lawyers on there, because they're gonna

39:47

be like getting this. Do you think that

39:49

anything today's proceedings change? What do you think

39:51

that the jury is thinking about this case?

39:53

And also Todd Blanche got very heated on

39:56

this. I mean, he called him a liar.

39:58

He grabbed the microphone like closely. like

40:00

someone like drunk at a party might grab a

40:02

mic and his voice was loud in the room.

40:04

He at one point said to the jurors, like,

40:06

they don't want to hear whatever. Is

40:10

that effective? It was a tension-

40:13

Michael Cohen, you've got to pick

40:15

your witnesses. You can't just be

40:17

a bull in a china shop with everybody. But I

40:19

think with Michael Cohen, I think it was totally fine.

40:21

It was a wedding singer moment. It was. Ron,

40:24

how does Camille, thank you so much. Really fascinating. How

40:26

did Trump's lawyer, Todd Blanche, raise his voice, as I

40:29

just said at times? He also raised his

40:31

hand with some dramatic flair to put a visual on the

40:33

point. My next guest captured some of

40:35

those intense moments. We'll talk to one

40:37

of the great courtroom artists ahead. In

40:44

Steering Cross Examination, Michael Cohen today, Donald Trump's lawyer,

40:46

Todd Blanche, grilled Cohen on all the times he'd

40:49

previously gone under oath, raised his

40:51

right hand and then lied. This was one

40:53

of those combative moments captured by the ultra-talented

40:55

veteran courtroom sketch artist Jane

40:57

Rosenberg, and we're very glad that she is back

40:59

with us tonight. You've

41:02

got to be exhausted. I appreciate you

41:04

coming in to talk about the day.

41:06

I mean, to many people in the

41:09

courtroom, this was an exciting day with the

41:11

cross-examination toward the end of it. You

41:13

captured this moment of Todd Blanche raising his

41:15

hand. That was

41:17

in his cross-examination of Michael Cohen,

41:20

and he was repeatedly saying, you've

41:22

sworn in a courtroom, you've raised

41:24

your right hand. When

41:27

you saw that, had you already started the sketch,

41:29

or did you suddenly have to shift

41:31

and start a whole new sketch of Todd Blanche raising his

41:34

arm? Did you know this was going to be the moment?

41:36

I did not know it would be the moment, and I

41:38

did start another one with him leaning over the

41:40

podium like this. He does a lot. Then

41:43

he raised his hand, and I had to switch that.

41:45

So can you just erase an arm?

41:47

And he did it so many times. He raised his hand.

41:51

You swore and tell the truth, then. What did it mean? In

41:53

fact, at a certain point, the judge seemed to sort of

41:55

be like, okay, we got it. Let's move it along. Did

42:00

you have to erase the arm or did you

42:02

start a whole new sketch? No, I erased the

42:04

arm. Okay. I mean, it doesn't always

42:06

work, but that's what I did this time, because

42:08

I had so much else already

42:10

in there. I felt, oh, I think

42:12

I could just put that arm up. It's there

42:14

now. Just fill it up. You've heard a

42:17

lot of cross examinations. Did you think, did

42:19

this one register to you in

42:21

any particular way? No.

42:25

You didn't think it was as exciting. I haven't

42:27

seen many, so I thought the end was incredibly... Cross

42:29

is often exciting. It should

42:31

be. And lawyers get really

42:34

excited when they're going to cross somebody, I

42:36

think. That's why they call it

42:38

the crucible of cross examination. Well, and cross-lanch

42:40

is not really well practiced in cross examination.

42:42

I mean, I think he would even acknowledge

42:45

that. And so today was really a big

42:47

test for him. And so for him to

42:49

kind of have, you know, this disbelieving tone

42:51

in his voice as Michael Cohen is answering

42:54

his questions, raising his hands, raising his voice,

42:56

kind of this high pitched voice at times

42:58

to kind of say, no one

43:00

can believe what you're saying. He seems almost apoplectic at

43:02

times. Like, are you kidding me? Yeah. He would

43:04

say, are you finished now? Please don't give a

43:06

speech. I understand your characterization, but we just read

43:08

it. Nothing on that letter is not the truth.

43:10

And I'll just say one moment that I noticed

43:12

today was after a break, they were

43:15

walking back in the room. Normally Trump strides in

43:17

by himself. He's at the front of the room.

43:19

He comes in alone and then everyone trails him

43:21

behind him. He and Todd Blanch were walking side

43:23

by side, kind of talking to one another. You

43:25

never really see Trump like that with

43:27

his attorney walking into the room. No, you're right.

43:29

He's always behind him. Todd Blanch. I

43:32

will say that in some of those more

43:34

shrill Todd Blanch moments, including

43:37

the two at the end where

43:40

he confronted Cohen and

43:42

there was an objection and the

43:44

objection was sustained, those were

43:46

moments that the jury paid, I

43:48

thought, hard to

43:50

discern attention. They were very

43:53

attentive. You couldn't read them.

43:55

They were visibly annoyed with

43:57

Blanch. I saw eye rolling.

44:00

looking away, it was too much,

44:02

and it detracted. It shows his

44:04

lack of experience, because it actually

44:06

detracted from the point he was

44:08

making. He would have been better

44:11

to let the revelation

44:14

that he had elicited from Cohen

44:17

breathe rather than being

44:20

objected to and so

44:24

loud and unpleasant. It looked

44:26

to me like the jury was not liking

44:29

Todd Blanche very much in

44:31

those moments. Well, editorializing while

44:34

you're cross-examining a witness is usually a

44:37

bad idea. I mean, that's not what you're

44:40

there to do. You're there- Is that bad

44:42

from a legal standpoint or just from a

44:44

jury impact? From a tactical jury impact standpoint.

44:46

The jury's not interested in your editorializing. They

44:48

want to try to get to the facts

44:51

just like every jury wants to

44:53

get to the facts. But that moment

44:55

with the hand raised or whatever, I'm

44:57

sure that you dated your

45:00

work and probably noted the time

45:02

too, right? Someday that'll probably appear

45:05

on Todd Blanche's office wall. I'm sure

45:07

it will be. There it is. There

45:09

you go. I

45:12

love critiquing lawyers as much as the next

45:14

person, but every time I've talked to jurors,

45:17

almost always what you hear from

45:19

them is, oh, the lawyers were

45:21

fine, but the evidence was X.

45:23

And they don't parse the

45:26

performance of the attorneys as much as

45:28

we do. And I think this

45:31

is one of the great things about the

45:33

jury system is that I think the evidence

45:35

actually matters a lot more than the performance

45:37

of the lawyers. The person who does parse

45:39

the lawyers is definitely Trump. And

45:42

I mean, if our friend Arthur Adalia

45:44

was here, he would say, you know,

45:47

Trump and his other attorney,

45:49

Susan Neckless, has way more

45:51

experience in doing a cross than

45:54

Todd Blanche. But once

45:56

that moment happened, I was like, OK, that's

45:58

why Todd Blanche is doing this cross. He,

46:02

Trump is a very, you know, he likes to archetype

46:04

people and just sort of put them in

46:06

their categories. I can

46:08

imagine, this is speculation, but I can only

46:11

imagine him thinking, wanting to have somebody with

46:13

the physicality of Todd Blanche, who is actually

46:15

a very kind of broad-shouldered

46:17

type of person, to be able to

46:20

do that kind of aggressive, sort of

46:22

in-your-face challenging of Michael Cohen, that

46:25

Susan Neckless is an incredible professional, but

46:27

she's, that's not how

46:29

she conducts herself in doing her job.

46:32

And stylistically, it's a choice. Whether it will matter

46:34

to the jury, I don't know, but it probably

46:36

matters. I think that's a

46:39

high-theater moment, and although

46:42

Jeffrey's correct to point out that it's

46:44

still ultimately about facts. But

46:47

high-theater moments, people are human. You know, facts are

46:49

not everything. People, when

46:52

it comes to jury deliberations, in my experience,

46:54

those are emotional moments, in

46:56

addition to fact-gathering moments.

46:59

And theater, trials are

47:01

theater, after all. Theater matters.

47:04

I've seen lawyers

47:07

without theater, and you

47:09

can go to sleep. That's not a problem with this

47:11

panel, James. Thank

47:15

you so much. We're going to be

47:17

recurring Michael Cohen's former attorney and current legal

47:19

advisor, Lenny Davis, his take on whether his

47:21

client dug a hole for himself, did well

47:24

for himself, and also his take on the

47:26

prosecution today, going to the final stages of

47:28

this trial. We'll be right back. This

47:44

is how you chase life. It

47:46

could be used on an upcoming episode.