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0:31

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0:33

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0:36

I wanted to do some show and tell.

0:39

No, this is an impoltergeist. Oh, look

0:41

at his mouth. His mouth is going crazy.

0:44

Well, that egg is 7,000 years old. Well,

0:46

it's considered the Roswell of South America. FOIA

0:49

request, which it's not clear who requested

0:52

it. I'll put it in the private chat. Just tell me the name.

0:54

I got him right here. New clothes coming out.

0:56

We got coffee, believe it or not. I'll

0:58

step out for a bit and grab a

1:00

sandwich, maybe. It looks more like a rubber

1:02

duck from your bathtub. Bleary-eyed,

1:05

doom-scrolling at two in the morning.

1:10

Astonishing Legends would like to thank Masterclass,

1:12

Factor, our contributors at patreon.com,

1:15

and you, our listeners, for making tonight's show

1:17

possible.

1:20

Welcome back, Astonishing Legends listeners.

1:23

As we inch closer and closer to Halloween,

1:26

we find ourselves involuntarily drifting

1:28

toward the veil that separates our reality

1:31

from the unknown. Tonight,

1:33

we're honored to bring you three more guests and

1:35

their stories to ponder while

1:37

you put up your Halloween decorations and

1:39

drive to the store for more fake blood. With

1:43

these latest tales, we'll learn

1:45

quite a few things. Things

1:47

we feel like, well, you

1:49

should have known.

1:50

For example, always

1:52

lock your doors, even if you

1:54

think you live in a small, quiet,

1:57

safe town. Take note

1:59

of your surroundings.

1:59

and stay alert, especially

2:02

if something seems odd about a series

2:05

of events or the behavior of a stranger.

2:08

You might be in the presence of a visitor

2:10

from another time and place. And

2:13

when we think about the possibility of life

2:15

after death, we often look

2:17

for uplifting stories to help frame

2:19

our belief systems.

2:21

But not every life after death experience

2:24

conforms to that standard. Some

2:26

of them are terrifying as

2:29

you'll hear tonight. So once

2:31

again, we remind you to make sure

2:33

you're alone. Check under the bed

2:36

and in your basements and attics. Lock

2:38

your doors, dim your lights, and

2:41

join us as we share some of your

2:43

astonishing

2:43

legends. Welcome

2:59

back to Astonishing Legends. I'm Scott

3:01

Philbrook, and this is Rachel.

3:04

I believe that through my work, I've

3:06

experienced

3:07

incredibly positive things. I've experienced

3:10

a veil very, very thin. And

3:13

I've experienced what I would call, you know,

3:15

angelic visitation. But

3:17

if I believe in that, then I have to believe in the

3:19

other.

3:20

Join us tonight for the final part

3:22

of your Halloween listener stories, the

3:24

second of three shows in a row for October 2023.

3:32

And we're back.

3:33

Happy Halloween. That's still 10

3:36

days and one more episode of ours away, my friend. Well,

3:39

one, that was my Dan Hurley impression. Oh, okay. Also,

3:43

a lot of people, man, they don't listen to the show

3:45

as soon as it drops, you know, as soon as we post here, they

3:48

let it age like a fine wine. Yeah,

3:50

it does take some people a minute. Or they just get

3:52

around to it weeks later, you know. You're right. You're not wrong.

3:55

A big thanks to all of you who ordered the

3:57

limited edition Halloween merch ordering

3:59

for the 20th of October. 2023 Halloween hoodies and shirts

4:01

has now closed and our

4:03

merch team is working furiously to get everything to

4:05

everyone hopefully before October 31st.

4:08

So be patient as the printing and

4:10

shipping begins. Yeah, the sweatpants

4:13

were such a hit. They're still in the store. We're

4:15

extending those for a little bit longer and they're no

4:17

longer aimed at a pre-Halloween arrival to

4:19

you, but they are still available for purchase.

4:22

And we'd like to take a moment to wish our good friends

4:25

Adam and Matt over at Graveyard Tales a

4:27

happy 6th anniversary.

4:29

Yeah, but then we also wanted to remind them

4:31

that we were already three years old when graveyard

4:34

tales was born. No, no, I was I

4:36

think I was in my early 50s But

4:38

Jim Harold was already nine years old

4:40

when a stashing legends was born. He launched

4:42

in 2005 Whether this is the

4:45

circle of life once again proving

4:47

Jim is the OG paranormal pod

4:49

father And I guess that makes Adam and Matt

4:51

the unruly grandkids. I Guess

4:55

and what does that make us? We're the uncles

4:57

that no one wants to see at Thanksgiving. Okay,

5:00

well, I'm not sure about all these metaphorical relationships,

5:02

but I will go with that. Me either. Anyway,

5:05

happy 6th anniversary Graveyard

5:07

Tales. Speaking of both Jim Harold

5:10

and Graveyard Tales, Forrest will be joining

5:12

Graveyard Tales on October 28th And

5:14

I'll be joining Jim Harold that same night

5:17

on live streams that they're doing for Halloween. Yes,

5:19

because this year Halloween falls

5:21

on a Fabulous Tuesday. Yeah,

5:24

what's that about? Well,

5:27

that's the way the calendar works I guess but the

5:29

idea though is that you have some weekend

5:31

fun here before the actual day so

5:34

yeah, just check out Jim Harold comm or graveyard

5:37

tales on all other socials to

5:39

get more info on all that stuff and Meanwhile,

5:43

you've probably noticed something new in

5:45

our main feed It's a new show from

5:47

the astonishing legends network called scared

5:50

all the time The first episode has

5:52

already been released if you're subscribed to

5:54

us and the second episode will drop next week

5:57

before our final October show so you

5:59

can get those both just by staying tuned

6:01

here. After that, you can find Scared

6:04

all the time wherever you get your podcasts

6:06

on their own feed and subscribe on

6:08

the platform of your choice. It's a great

6:11

show hosted by Ed Vicala or as listeners

6:13

and viewers of the Astonishing Jukdor from Patreon

6:15

know him, the mechanic and his friend

6:18

Chris Kulari. Both of these guys are accomplished

6:20

writers in Hollywood and just generally

6:22

hilarious. It's a very different take on horror

6:24

and all that's scary from them, so find

6:27

it, subscribe, and enjoy. Alrighty,

6:30

sir, it's time to dive into these stories tonight

6:32

because we got some really good ones. First

6:34

things first, we said this last week, we need to say it again, we

6:36

asked for stories and wow, did you folks

6:38

deliver? We got so many amazing stories

6:40

in and they're still coming in and we're still

6:43

reviewing them. Yes, we are and

6:45

I guess I'm reviewing most of them. Yes,

6:47

you are and Tess has been helping as well. I've

6:49

read a ton of them. But

6:51

yes, you are definitely on point of just trying

6:53

to get all these shows out the door. Oh,

6:56

I know, I know. There's a lot going on, lots

6:58

of plates spinning, lots of loaded

7:00

plates. Those plates are overloaded, but

7:03

we hope it's all really stuff you're going to enjoy.

7:05

I just want to say thanks to Tess because she's

7:07

done a lot of heavy lifting. Yes, she has.

7:10

Sorting through, doing the initial triage.

7:13

The merch, all this stuff, the stories,

7:15

just lots and lots of stuff. So Tess, just a

7:17

shout out to you. If we haven't said it to you on

7:20

our Slack, we're saying it to you now on the air.

7:22

Thank you so much. We wouldn't be where we are without

7:24

you. Absolutely. And yeah, just

7:27

doing a lot of triage work. And I do want to say

7:29

this, everything that's come in has been amazing

7:31

and we're just so honored to have your trust

7:34

to receive these stories. Yeah, that's right. We

7:36

only really needed six or seven for our

7:38

episodes this year, which we

7:40

have well over a hundred other ones

7:43

that we're going through and there are a lot of really

7:45

great ones in that group. Yeah. And you

7:47

know what, in light of them being so

7:50

personal, intimate, sincere,

7:52

I just want to say if you didn't hear from us,

7:54

it's not over yet. We're planning to develop

7:56

a whole new short show, possibly

7:59

weekly that is. made up of these and

8:01

other stories we've gotten over the years. So please

8:03

don't be disheartened if the story you sent

8:05

in isn't in tonight's or last

8:07

week's episode. We're going to be reaching out to

8:10

a ton more of you, probably early next year, to

8:12

get your stories recorded too. Ah yeah, we're so

8:14

excited. We cannot wait for that. But tonight,

8:16

we're bringing you three new guests. And

8:19

because we've got a lot to get to, we're

8:21

just going to dive right into the first one right

8:23

now. Yeah, this one's pretty good

8:25

and spooky. Well, I like

8:27

this angle about it. Potentially, it

8:30

has a terrifying real life true crime

8:32

connection.

8:34

Well, we would like to welcome Megan

8:36

to the show. You sent a pretty cool email

8:39

in with a very interesting story in it.

8:41

Thank you for joining Astonishing Legends. Yeah,

8:43

thanks for having me. How long have you

8:46

been listening to the show? A really long time

8:48

actually. I think I came in on

8:50

like 13th or 14th episode. So

8:52

it's been a while.

8:53

Oh wow. Yeah, that has been

8:55

a while. Wow. And thank you for sticking

8:57

with us so long. I'm always surprised when

8:59

people do that. So thank you. Listen,

9:01

every episode except for the one about

9:03

the earwig, I tried.

9:05

I couldn't do that one. All

9:08

that other weird stuff, that's okay with you. Yep,

9:11

just no bugs in my ears. No bugs

9:13

in the ears. Yeah,

9:15

that one folks, if folks are looking for

9:17

that older episode, I believe it's called What's

9:20

Gotten Into You. Try to check that one out.

9:22

That's quite a story. Well, why don't we just

9:24

go ahead and dive right in here to your story?

9:27

We'd love to hear it. Well, my story starts

9:30

in August of 2011 in

9:32

Moscow, Idaho, which is where

9:35

the University

9:35

of

9:35

Idaho is located. It

9:37

was my senior year at

9:40

the University of Idaho. And

9:42

I lived off campus with my best friend.

9:44

And then originally we had had

9:47

one of our other friends living with us, but they

9:49

ended up having to drop out for health

9:51

reasons. So we got a

9:54

random roommate who ended up being one

9:56

of the best roommates I ever had. She

9:59

worked like three jobs.

9:59

so she was

10:01

basically only home to

10:02

eat and sleep. And

10:05

so

10:06

I'll say there's kind of like a precursor

10:09

to the main event and just

10:11

a little background. This is

10:13

something that just happens in my family where

10:16

pictures move around.

10:19

It's happened ever since I was a kid.

10:22

It happened a lot to my dad, especially

10:25

the picture

10:25

of his brother who died before

10:28

I was actually born would move

10:30

all around the house. And so

10:32

anyways, I don't know if they do this everywhere, but in

10:34

Idaho, it's like a big deal. When you're

10:37

in high school, they have senior pictures. And

10:39

so I had some leftover senior

10:41

pictures that I hadn't given out to people. They're

10:44

like just little wallet size pictures

10:46

that you're supposed to write something on and give like

10:48

to your classmates.

10:51

And those started like

10:53

I had them in my desk, like in a

10:55

drawer. And those started sort

10:57

of like popping

10:58

out in random

11:00

places in the house.

11:02

I will say the story takes

11:04

place in August, but we still had our Christmas

11:07

tree up because we were just, well,

11:09

we were college kids and we were like, whatever, we're just gonna

11:11

leave the Christmas tree up. So one of the first

11:14

places that that picture was found was

11:17

in the Christmas

11:17

tree. So

11:18

that was really weird. And it was

11:21

like right at eye levels of like someone

11:23

said it right where someone would see it. And

11:26

then also my best friend,

11:29

his ID

11:30

card

11:31

kept moving around. And

11:33

eventually, we never found it

11:35

again. But like that would show up in

11:37

weird places like the fridge. Or

11:41

like, we'd get up in the morning and

11:43

it would be like on the TV. And he

11:46

was like, I don't know what is happening. I have

11:49

put this in my wallet and now it's showing

11:51

up every which way. So

11:54

and then I think my picture

11:56

also like showed up on

11:59

his door handle. At one point, it was really

12:01

weird. But that is something

12:03

that just sort of happens in my family,

12:05

and it usually means something

12:07

weird about that.

12:09

It's interesting that this is the ID, specifically

12:11

with it being in the refrigerator. It's a funny thing about

12:14

my dad, who was kind of like the absent-minded

12:16

professor, as I know that when

12:18

he was younger, he used to go

12:20

and get coffee, and he would put his wallet in

12:22

the refrigerator. Just so he did it. He knew

12:24

he was doing it. No ghost. He was just like, I

12:26

always thought that was a funny story about him, because

12:28

he would put, you know, it's like you put something down. It's like when you see

12:31

the car going down the road with a Starbucks coffee

12:33

on the roof. And that's my dad, too. But

12:35

with an ID, that's such a specific

12:37

thing, because that comes out of your wallet. It's a separate.

12:39

You have to go to the trouble to dig it out, or these pictures

12:42

are in a drawer. Or that's really

12:44

fascinating. Yeah. So Megan,

12:46

it seems like your family has a little bit

12:48

of a history with aportation, as

12:51

it's called in the ghost hunter realms,

12:53

where objects disappear, reappear

12:56

in other places at different times,

12:59

some things disappear completely. But it seems like these

13:01

objects that go missing are

13:03

placed in areas where it's

13:05

almost like, you know, whatever's doing it knows

13:08

that you're going to find it there. Is

13:10

there anything else that's happened to your family,

13:12

or that's kind of a family trait, as you said, that maybe is

13:14

passed down from your paternal grandmother, your

13:17

brother, you said he has it, your dad. Anything

13:19

else that's kind of paranormal that's a family

13:22

tradition or trait?

13:23

Yeah. Most

13:25

often it's pictures that get moved, but other

13:28

things get moved too. Like,

13:30

I remember one time when I was really

13:32

little, my grandma had got my brother

13:35

this big stuffed bunny.

13:38

And one of my brother's shirts went missing.

13:41

And my mom tore up the house

13:43

trying to find this shirt. And then one day

13:45

we woke up and the shirt was on

13:48

the bunny. Like, my

13:50

brother didn't do it because he was

13:52

too young to do that. And

13:54

I didn't do it. So and my mom's

13:57

wears that I didn't, but I didn't do it. Well,

13:59

it's got to be.

13:59

be one of the kids. It can't be

14:02

something paranormal.

14:04

But there's a bit of playfulness about

14:06

it. There's a bit of, as you may describe

14:08

here, something wanting the family

14:10

to remember them or like, I'm still around, just

14:13

I like being thought about, I'm still here. Or sometimes

14:17

a warning. Can you explain a little bit further

14:19

about the different types and meanings

14:21

of messages?

14:22

Yeah, yeah, sure. So my dad

14:25

was really convinced that a lot of it was

14:27

his brother. His brother, my uncle

14:29

died the year before I was born, almost

14:32

to the day. And so my dad has

14:34

had always

14:37

thought that my uncle sort of

14:40

watched over me specifically.

14:43

And then a lot of the stuff that happened with

14:45

my dad, he felt pretty sure that

14:47

it was his brother moving stuff around because

14:50

he would move besides pictures, it would be

14:53

like guitar picks and they both play guitar

14:55

and things like that. Or sometimes like

14:57

his picture would show up in the guitar

15:00

case. So I think that

15:02

one's specific

15:05

to like our family. I think it's, I

15:07

do think it probably is my uncle.

15:10

Somebody close, somebody knows

15:12

you. Does it keep coming on? Does it

15:15

keep happening?

15:16

Um, it hasn't in a while. Not

15:18

specifically from

15:21

what I would think of as my uncle. I have

15:23

something that I now call the ghost cat

15:27

that lives in. I think

15:29

that it follows me,

15:32

but I've seen it the most in this house that

15:34

I live in. And the reason why I call it the ghost

15:36

cat is because I don't

15:38

have any cats in the house anymore, but my

15:41

roommates who no longer live here had a cat. So

15:44

usually whoever was first down in

15:46

the morning would open the door and the dog

15:48

and the cat would go up. And so

15:51

I was the first one

15:53

up and I was downstairs making

15:55

breakfast and the dog and the cat come down and they went

15:58

out. So I let them both out.

15:59

And then I go back

16:02

to,

16:02

you know, cooking breakfast and then I bring

16:05

my breakfast over to the table and I look up and the

16:07

cat is on the stairs. So

16:10

whatever I let out was not the cat.

16:14

But it looked just like the cat. And

16:16

then when those same roommates moved

16:18

out, I was talking to

16:21

my friend, a different friend on

16:23

the phone, and I said, oh, you know, I really

16:25

miss their cat. I wish they would have just let me get

16:27

that cat. And then right

16:30

after I said that, a really

16:32

loud

16:34

echo through the whole

16:36

house. I was the only one home.

16:38

It was just me and my dog. And

16:41

of course, dogs don't make that noise. And she was

16:43

asleep. I could see her. So

16:45

I thought that like there was a cat stuck in my garage

16:48

or something. And I went all around

16:50

and I couldn't find it. And then I was just like, it's

16:52

the ghost cat. That will

16:54

move things around or it will hide things.

16:58

And it wants attention. If

17:00

you give it attention, then it will give

17:02

you the thing back. So

17:05

I try to give it a little

17:07

bit of attention now and again, so it won't steal

17:09

my things. Or like sometimes I will get

17:12

like a cat toy and be like, this is for you. You can

17:14

do whatever you want with

17:14

it. Just leave my stuff.

17:18

Do the cat toys, do they ever go missing? I've

17:20

never heard them move. I've

17:23

never heard them move, but I have seen it on the

17:25

floor in one place. And then when I come

17:27

back into the room, it's in a different place, but it doesn't

17:29

make any noise. So I don't know if it's just teleporting

17:31

or. Wow. Yeah.

17:34

And that happens like probably like once

17:37

a month with the ghost cat. So,

17:40

but I don't think that one is my

17:42

uncle. I think

17:44

the other big thing that happens is

17:47

so my dad did pass away when I

17:49

was 13. And so the

17:52

day that he died was a week

17:54

before his birthday. So

17:56

every year in between in

17:59

that week.

18:00

I usually get some weird

18:02

thing that will happen. Like, usually

18:05

it's like white flickering

18:08

or something is moved

18:10

or one time I like went into

18:12

my office and somebody had changed

18:15

my calendar months and

18:17

stuff. And I was just like, did someone do this? Like,

18:19

are you guys messing with me? And everyone's like, no, no,

18:22

no, we didn't do it. Why would we change your

18:24

calendar? And

18:26

so the last one that I got

18:28

last year was I have a lock

18:30

box and it has

18:33

two locks on it. And we use

18:35

birth dates. One of them is my birthday and

18:37

one of them is my spouse's birthday.

18:41

And somehow both of them got changed

18:43

to my birth date. No idea

18:45

how that happened, but we had a hell of a time

18:47

trying to get it open. And

18:49

then I was finally like, you know what? I'm just gonna

18:51

try my birthday on both of them. And

18:54

it worked. And so I was just like,

18:56

oh, that's gotta be my sign this year, because it was

18:58

during that week. I was kind

19:00

of expecting something. Those things are hard

19:03

enough to change the combination on even if you're

19:05

alive and sentient and on top of

19:07

things. Yeah. I have

19:09

all kinds of bike locks that I can't open anymore.

19:11

So that's fascinating. It's always

19:13

something that's just

19:15

a little bit complex enough that you can't

19:18

think that it happened by

19:19

accident. Right, it's a little more

19:21

than a coincidence.

19:23

Yeah, or like one

19:25

year I came home and as

19:28

I was coming

19:28

home, all of the porch

19:30

lights in the apartment building that I was on

19:32

flashed just as I was coming in.

19:35

And then they went back to normal and everything was fine.

19:37

And I was just like, oh, okay. It's

19:40

your yearly message. In August

19:42

of 2011, your father was already passed away at

19:47

that point. Yes.

19:48

Talk about, if you will, like just

19:51

what that school year was like leading up to

19:53

August. So you'd, you know, obviously you had

19:55

the summer off, I'm imagining and then you're coming

19:57

back for classes probably just

19:59

at that time.

19:59

Yeah, I think we were only back

20:03

like two or three weeks at that point. And

20:06

I worked for an upward bound program

20:08

in college. So during the summer,

20:10

they had summer camp and that usually included

20:12

traveling, which was really

20:15

nice gig at that age. So we would usually

20:17

take

20:17

our students to Washington, DC

20:19

and New York.

20:20

That's kind of what I would be doing in the

20:22

summer. So I had just been

20:24

back

20:26

probably about three weeks before school

20:28

started. And then we were a couple of weeks into

20:30

the school year when this took place.

20:34

My best friend is a

20:36

year older than me. So he had already

20:38

graduated the year before,

20:39

but he was working at the

20:42

mall. So kind of trying to figure

20:44

out what's the next step. And I was

20:46

like, please don't move. I can't

20:47

afford the apartment without you. So

20:51

he was sort of just kind of waiting for me to graduate.

20:54

And so that's kind of where we're at. And

20:56

the day that this happened,

20:59

he was at work. And so was my other

21:01

roommate. She was almost always

21:03

at work. She had like three different jobs.

21:05

So it was a Saturday

21:08

and I had got up and I'd

21:10

done a little homework and everything. And college

21:13

student, I had a job part

21:15

time in school. So I was busy.

21:19

So Saturday was kind of like my do

21:21

my chores day. This is important

21:23

to the story. I know it sounds kind of like

21:25

a weird detail to add, but I did

21:28

my bedding laundry that day. I

21:30

washed my bedding. I changed my bed, everything.

21:33

And then I went into the shower. Our

21:35

apartment was tiny and our bathroom

21:37

was even tinier. So if no

21:40

one was home, I would leave

21:41

the door open because the fan did

21:42

not work well enough. So

21:45

I was

21:46

in the shower. I had the door

21:48

open. My

21:49

bedroom was just right across from the bathroom.

21:52

So we're talking like three or four

21:54

feet between my bedroom and

21:56

the bathroom that I was in.

21:58

So I took shower and everything.

21:59

usually listen to music so I was kind of singing

22:02

and all that. And then I get out of the

22:05

shower and I went back to my

22:07

bedroom and I went

22:10

to pull my pillow up because

22:12

I didn't have a chair or anything in my bedroom.

22:14

I just had my bed, poor college room. And

22:17

so I would often

22:19

like put the pillow against the wall

22:21

so I could sit on the bed like that. So I

22:24

picked up the pillow to do that and

22:27

a note fell out from underneath

22:29

my pillow. And I was

22:33

really weirded out by that because I was

22:35

like, well,

22:35

I literally just changed the

22:38

pillow case. And this was not here 20

22:40

minutes ago. And of

22:43

course, I opened it and read it. And it

22:46

was somebody talking

22:48

about regrets over a relationship

22:51

that went poorly, which

22:53

again, didn't relate to me because at that

22:56

point I had never really had a relationship.

22:58

So I was like, Oh,

23:00

this is really weird. And I mean,

23:02

it gave off concerning

23:05

vibes.

23:06

And it was just like, Oh, I wish that

23:08

we could just go back to how it was

23:09

in the beginning. And I'm so sorry

23:12

and blah, blah, blah. And this kind of stuff. And

23:15

I was like, Okay, what

23:17

is this? And at the time I still

23:20

thought that I was dealing with

23:22

a physical person who had left this

23:25

note. And I was like, maybe

23:27

they meant to leave it for my roommate because

23:29

they know that she has an ex boyfriend.

23:31

And maybe they just got the wrong room. But

23:33

I know that this note wasn't here before I went

23:36

in the shower.

23:36

So if someone brought it in that

23:39

happened while I was in the shower just

23:41

a few feet away, which was really

23:43

creepy. And so

23:46

I just kind of didn't know what to do at

23:48

that point. I called my roommate who

23:51

was at work and tried to explain to him

23:53

what was going on. And he was like, I don't, what

23:56

are you talking about? So

23:58

I just left the apartment.

23:59

and went to his work and

24:02

showed him the note. And I was

24:03

like, this was under my pillow. You

24:06

know, he's like, oh, how long has that been there? I was like, well,

24:08

I just made my bed. So it just showed

24:10

up.

24:11

So we were talking about it and I was really creeped out. I didn't

24:13

want to go back to the apartment alone

24:15

in case like somebody was waiting

24:18

there or something. And he

24:20

was like, well, let's call the cops

24:22

and tell them what happened. And

24:26

you can just wait here, tell them my shift's over and we'll go

24:28

home together. When

24:30

we got home, we called the

24:31

police and they sent somebody out

24:34

and he came in and he read the letter

24:36

and I explained to him like, again, I'm

24:38

telling everybody that I

24:40

just did my laundry. But

24:43

I was like, I just changed

24:45

the pillow case and sheets and stuff. And

24:47

this was not there. Like this appeared

24:50

in a small window of time. And basically

24:52

the cop was like, yeah, this is kind of

24:55

a concerning note, but I

24:57

didn't know who it would be from. Like

25:00

he kept asking me like, do you have any ex-boyfriends

25:02

or something like that? And I was like,

25:05

no, no, not really. There

25:07

was one guy that I kind

25:09

of had like a little thing, but it never

25:11

took

25:12

off. And as far as I knew,

25:14

he wasn't even on campus anymore. So,

25:17

and we didn't know each other well enough for like

25:19

the contents of that note. And

25:21

he suggested, you know, that we asked our roommate

25:24

if maybe it was meant for her and

25:27

she was like, no, I have no idea. And

25:30

basically it came down to they're like, well, you had

25:32

your door unlocked. So there's not much we

25:34

can do. Someone, they didn't break

25:36

in. They just came in and they left

25:39

something. They didn't

25:39

take anything. They didn't

25:41

ruin anything or mess up

25:43

your stuff. So yeah, lock

25:46

your doors. Yeah, sure. Like

25:49

Northern Idaho, well, you

25:51

know,

25:52

Moscow these days probably people do

25:54

lock their doors after

25:55

everything that's happened recently. Well,

25:57

we're gonna talk a little bit about that.

25:59

Yeah, towards the end here. But

26:02

just to clarify for people what the scenario

26:04

is, because that alone is a little disturbing

26:06

and creepy. You had got to take

26:08

a shower. Now your front door wasn't locked. But this

26:11

is a little bit off campus. And it's not, you

26:13

know, people have to understand being

26:15

from the region, it's pretty safe. I

26:17

mean, I had older relatives who never locked

26:20

their doors. It's that kind of place

26:22

or was. And so people were

26:24

trusting you didn't get people just wandering in like

26:27

you do nowadays. So it's not a common

26:29

thing. And you felt very safe. So

26:31

you're taking a shower, the steam is building up, you

26:33

have that door open with a fan going. And

26:35

you would just change the bedding. So

26:38

whatever happened, whoever that note got there,

26:40

it had to have happened while you were

26:42

taking a shower. Yes. And your roommate,

26:45

she's off working your best friend and your

26:47

other roommate. Yeah, he's at work. So

26:50

no one was there. And they're very unlikely

26:52

to have played this kind of a prank. And then also,

26:54

I think you said you told your your

26:56

best friend there that a few things have been

26:58

happening. And the week's leading up to this. And

27:01

that kind of paranormal stuff really freaked him out.

27:03

Like he did not like that. Didn't

27:06

wasn't down with that. And

27:09

was there any idea? I guess the question is, when

27:11

you touch the note, did you get an immediate

27:13

weird vibe just by touching it or just

27:16

reading it? Or was it just like, well, I'm kind of creeped

27:18

out because I don't know where this came from and who it's for.

27:21

Touching the note was really uncomfortable.

27:23

It felt really gross.

27:26

And like, the regret that the person

27:28

was talking about, like you could almost like feel

27:30

that regret when you touch the note. Or

27:33

at least what I did. I know my roommate

27:35

did touch the note and I don't think I ever

27:37

asked him how he felt touching it. But yeah,

27:41

it like kind of instantly when

27:43

I saw it even I was just

27:45

like, who I felt like cold.

27:49

You know how sometimes you feel like your stomach

27:51

drops, right sort of, it

27:53

wasn't a curious like, Oh, what's this thing

27:55

under my pillow was like, that should not be

27:57

there. And the more I read

27:59

it, the more I was like, that really should not

28:02

be there.

28:06

You watched the Netflix series, Mine Hunter, yeah.

28:08

Oh yeah, very well done, I thought,

28:10

as I would expect from David Fincher's involvement.

28:13

Yeah, me too. You know, very dark, of course,

28:15

but very much enjoyed it. Well, guess

28:18

who I discovered on the Masterclass platform?

28:21

The man who that character and series

28:23

were based on, former FBI Special Agent

28:25

John Douglas, who became the first criminal profiler.

28:28

His developing theory that behavior can be predictable

28:31

led to the formation of the FBI's first

28:33

criminal profiling program. Yeah, I actually

28:36

saw that and I knew who he was because my wife

28:38

was like a big fan of his from a long time ago.

28:40

She loves true crime. Oh yeah. People might

28:43

be thinking, sure, that's all entertaining, but I'll

28:45

never run into a serial killer, so it's not really

28:47

something I need to know about. But think about this,

28:49

we've all run into people who are

28:51

manipulative, controlling, and domineering,

28:54

three traits all criminal minds exhibit, and

28:56

they'll try to use you for their own nefarious purposes.

28:59

So if you can profile those personality types

29:01

and avoid them before you get mixed up with

29:03

them, that'll save you a lot of

29:05

grief. That is exactly right.

29:07

I mean, no one ever thinks they're going to run into a bad

29:10

person, but people do. And

29:12

this kind of information, like the wilderness survival

29:14

sessions I talked about, can actually save your

29:16

life one day. But something I learned

29:18

from lesson five, spotting a liar, John

29:21

Wayne Gacy, and something we often talk

29:23

about on the show when it comes to people's testimony,

29:25

never trust a polygraph. John

29:28

Douglas is really against lie detector tests,

29:30

because people think that a habitual liar

29:32

is going to respond like they do, but they don't.

29:35

Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer pass polygraphs

29:38

over and over again, because one of the

29:40

key factors with a psychopathic personality

29:43

is their lack of anxiety, possibly

29:45

because they feel their crimes are justified.

29:48

Wow. So whether they pass or fail, remember

29:50

that next time you want to dismiss or believe

29:52

someone's paranormal account based on a polygraph.

29:55

Well, this fall, learn from the best to

29:58

become your best with MasterClass. leadership

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to pick from with new classes added every month.

30:45

Like John Douglas teaches you how to think like

30:47

an FBI profiler. That gave

30:49

me tips on how to assess someone's story for truthfulness.

30:52

Not only for the ones we cover on the show, but

30:54

for folks I meet in real life. Or

30:56

session 10, developing your intuition. When

30:59

danger is close, listening to it could

31:01

definitely save your life. Being armed

31:03

with this knowledge is a real confidence boost. And

31:06

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31:08

Douglas says, by understanding who

31:10

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31:12

That is so true. Well with Masterclass, you can

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slash legends. Get 15% off

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right now at masterclass.com

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slash legends. masterclass.com

31:43

slash legends. Emily

31:47

and I have been listening to so many different podcasts

31:49

lately, but we recently found one we were hooked on. It's

31:52

called Badlands. Oh yeah, you know I

31:54

could have told you that. I've been loving it so far. For

31:56

those of you who haven't heard it, Badlands is an anthology

31:59

series that blends history and true crime

32:01

to tell the transgressive stories of some

32:03

of the biggest names in Hollywood, and this is

32:05

not the Hollywood history you've heard before. These

32:07

are uncensored, immersive, edge-of-your-seat

32:10

storytelling. Oh yeah, you know, Badlands

32:13

is hosted by Jake Brennan, the creator and

32:15

host of the award-winning music and true

32:17

crime podcast, Disgraceland, which

32:19

we just talked about. I love Disgraceland. It

32:21

seriously does not pull any punches

32:23

at all. No, it does not. Well, Badlands

32:26

is the same way. It explores the most insane

32:28

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32:31

It's covered many actors, directors, and

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32:35

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32:37

Allen's former career as a low-level drug

32:39

dealer, the curse of the movie Poltergeist,

32:42

how porn star John Holmes got caught up in the infamous

32:44

Wonderland murders, and more episodes

32:47

on Winona Ryder, Johnny Depp, River

32:49

Phoenix, Johnny Versace, Robin Williams,

32:51

Heath Ledger, Sharon Tate, Robert Downey Jr.,

32:53

and so many more. I mean, who's left?

32:56

That's a lot of people. It is, sir. Unfortunately,

32:58

though, there seems to be no shortage of new

33:00

applicants in Hollywood. No, there isn't. New

33:03

episodes of Badlands are released every Wednesday,

33:05

with bonus episodes released every Friday.

33:07

Subscribe to Badlands on Apple Podcasts,

33:10

Spotify, the iHeart Radio app, Amazon

33:12

Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

33:18

Hi, I'm Cat Wells, and you're listening

33:20

to Astonishing Legends with Scott Philbrook

33:23

and Forrest Burgess. Now back to the

33:25

show.

33:28

All right, so for the listeners, inevitably,

33:31

that right after they hear stories, and they say, oh,

33:33

well, this just came from here, or whatever, they look for

33:35

the mundane. I always try to think of that question to ask.

33:38

There's a couple of things I wanted to ask about

33:40

that. One was, how long had

33:42

you been in that apartment?

33:43

At that point, we had lived there for

33:45

at least two years. Okay, so

33:47

a good while. So whoever

33:50

or whatever left this thing, it's

33:52

unlikely that someone

33:55

else was there three months before you, that

33:57

lived there that this might have applied to. Next

33:59

question. question is, I presume, because this

34:01

is generally the case, when you moved in,

34:03

you brought all your own, it was empty. Yes.

34:07

When you made your bed, there's no chance that

34:09

the note had been in some weird place in

34:11

your room. And then when you made the bed, it flew

34:13

off the top of a bookcase and landed

34:16

under your pillow or something like that. Nope.

34:18

We actually had very little furniture. Yeah, no

34:22

one has furniture in college. Me

34:25

and my roommate, we got all our stuff from, was

34:27

discards from grocery stores. They would put like

34:29

a display out on the back of loading ramp

34:31

and we'd bring it home. Well, so yeah, our

34:33

entertainment center at the top, it said 100% Arabica Bean. That's

34:37

what it said on that, because it used to be a coffee thing. So

34:39

there's not any chance of the note spontaneous

34:41

appearing in that way. Do you remember what kind

34:43

of paper was on? It was handwritten, I presume.

34:46

Was it cursive? Was it printed?

34:47

It was handwritten and it was sort

34:50

of like a mixture of print

34:52

and cursive. You know, like some people

34:54

kind of have like the loop

34:57

in this stuff, but then other things are completely

34:59

standalone. It was sort of like that. It

35:01

was a little messy, but

35:03

legible. Like there wasn't any like,

35:06

I don't know what this word is or anything. And

35:08

it was just on a piece of like regular notebook

35:11

paper. Like when you're in elementary

35:13

school, kind of like lined paper. Lined

35:15

paper and it was folded up.

35:18

Yeah. And it wasn't addressed to

35:21

anyone or signed by anyone. It was just

35:23

the message itself.

35:24

I think it said like something like

35:26

dear one or

35:28

my beloved or something like that. Yeah.

35:31

Like it didn't say an actual name, but it was

35:34

clear that like whoever they were writing it to, they

35:36

had some kind of like romantic attachment

35:39

to, which again, was why I was like, this is

35:41

not for me.

35:44

Okay. So before we get to the

35:47

usual or possible suspects in your

35:49

story, as you were saying earlier,

35:51

just want to make this clear that in

35:53

the weeks prior, strange things have been happening.

35:56

Your roommate's ID showed up in the freezer. It

35:59

was also found a textbook that he

36:01

hadn't opened in over a year? Yeah,

36:03

we never found it even when we moved

36:06

out like the next

36:07

summer everywhere.

36:08

We even moved the fridge to see

36:11

if it was behind the fridge. We never found

36:13

it. Yeah. How did he think to look in

36:15

the textbook to find it if he'd not

36:17

open it for so long? I think it was actually

36:20

my textbook because we were in the same

36:22

program. We were both psychology.

36:24

So we shared books and

36:26

I think he was giving it

36:28

back to me because he had already

36:31

taken that class. He's like,

36:33

here's the book. And so then when

36:35

we opened it, we're like,

36:37

wow, why is your ID in here?

36:39

That's really weird. Yeah.

36:42

Now everyone seems to be a bit

36:45

disturbed by this because like you said,

36:47

even if it's just a creepy human or a misguided

36:49

person who was troubled, what you

36:52

read from the note is this person was really unstable.

36:56

And as you described,

36:57

didn't seem like they knew what they themselves

37:00

were capable of as far

37:02

as bad acts. And so that's

37:04

disturbing. Now they know where you live at least, or

37:06

they have mistakenly think where the

37:09

intended person lives. So

37:11

as you're going over the details with your friend over

37:13

and over again, like, well, who could this possibly be? Because

37:16

either it's somebody who really has mistaken the wrong,

37:18

the total wrong building. And

37:20

certainly, yeah, it's a college town. There's a lot of young kids

37:22

in school, especially at that time, having started

37:24

up again, it seems like somebody has mistaken

37:27

this and went

37:29

to a bit of effort where they would have gotten caught, perhaps,

37:32

you know, if you'd just come out of the shower, got

37:35

a glimpse of them screamed, you know, whatever it is that

37:37

they, it could have gone badly,

37:40

you know, further. So that's

37:42

disturbing. But who are you starting to wonder

37:44

might have done this? Because obviously, it seems

37:47

like maybe there's some kind of connection.

37:48

Yeah, both we

37:50

and the police officer were

37:52

like, well, is it your other roommate?

37:54

Because we didn't know her super well. We

37:57

didn't know her before she became our roommate. And

37:59

like I said, She was hardly ever home. So

38:02

we kind of

38:03

told her about it.

38:04

So we wanted to let

38:05

her know anyways, because it was

38:08

possible someone broke into the house and

38:10

left

38:10

stuff. And she was like,

38:13

no, that wouldn't be anybody I know.

38:15

And so then

38:18

one of my best friends, former

38:20

roommates, when we were living on campus,

38:23

we had kind of liked each other and that kind

38:25

of thing. And we're heading towards

38:28

dating, but unfortunately

38:30

he had a bit of a drinking problem. And

38:33

before anything really

38:35

happened, he had ended up in the hospital

38:37

because he drank too much. And it

38:40

turned out that was on purpose, unfortunately.

38:42

And so he ended up dropping

38:45

out of school for a while and going back to

38:47

live with his parents. So I was

38:49

like, that's the only person I could think of

38:51

that would have some kind

38:53

of romantic regret that

38:55

they would want to put in a note for me. But

38:58

I was like, I don't even think he's in the

39:00

same town right now. I can't remember

39:02

where his family lived, but it was fairly far. And

39:05

I don't think he would have done that. He

39:07

probably would have just tried to talk to me. And

39:10

then I can't remember who thought of it first,

39:14

but

39:17

something had recently happened

39:20

in the town, unfortunately, where

39:22

one of the psychology professors had

39:24

murdered one

39:25

of the students. And

39:28

it came to light that he had been in a romantic

39:30

relationship with her.

39:32

And this was a professor that both

39:35

me and my best friend had

39:37

been in his class and had interacted

39:39

with him. And

39:40

he was generally very well liked. He

39:43

did the research

39:45

course for the psychology program,

39:48

which is usually everyone's least favorite

39:50

class, but he made

39:52

it pretty entertaining and fun.

39:54

He also had some mental

39:56

health issues himself, and we

39:59

did see that.

39:59

at one point, he

40:02

came in one time for

40:04

a lecture. And like, to

40:06

be honest, we all thought he was drunk, because

40:09

he was kind of like slurring and he

40:11

did the lecture that he did the

40:13

week before, as if

40:15

it was new. And then we

40:18

were all kind of just staring at him like, what is going

40:20

on? And he was

40:21

like, what, what's wrong? Like, why aren't

40:23

you guys

40:24

just pay attention or whatever. And he was not

40:26

as usual self. Because

40:29

usually he was really funny

40:31

and nice. And like, if he called on

40:33

you and you didn't know the answer, he wouldn't be

40:35

mean about it. He would just kind of play it off

40:37

as a joke and then ask somebody else.

40:40

And he was just kind of mean during that

40:42

particular class. And everyone just sort

40:45

of was like, what do we do? This is

40:47

so weird. And so we didn't want to

40:49

get him in trouble. Or we're

40:51

just like, okay, we'll just like sit through this lecture and

40:53

then leave. Which is what

40:55

we did. So I had taken his

40:58

class.

40:58

The year before. And

41:00

then he had asked me

41:02

at one point if I wanted

41:05

to do

41:06

research, be one of his research

41:08

assistants, but I kind of turned

41:09

him down because I was more on

41:12

course for like the counseling side.

41:15

And he was doing more of like the cognitive

41:17

psychology stuff. And so I had turned

41:19

him down. But one of my other good friends

41:22

who was also in the psych program. She

41:24

was a year behind me. She was actually

41:27

he asked her the next year. And

41:29

she was actually getting ready

41:32

to become one of his research assistants.

41:35

So when the news came out that

41:37

he had murdered one of his research

41:40

assistants for a few moments,

41:42

we were really scared. It was our friend

41:44

that

41:45

turned out to be somebody different.

41:47

I was a graduate student. Do

41:49

you knew the other students, though, this one

41:51

that was that was working with him that he was, I

41:53

guess, having an affair with? I

41:55

met her in passing a few times.

41:58

We weren't like close friend.

41:59

anything, but I knew her name,

42:02

you know, I could recognize her. She

42:04

was a little bit older than me, so

42:07

I didn't have a whole lot of interaction with her, but

42:09

I did meet her a few times.

42:11

Yeah, you had said that she was a graduate student and

42:13

you were undergrad. Yeah, I was undergrad,

42:16

yeah. And then

42:18

when it happened, he had

42:20

went to her apartment and

42:23

shot her right outside of her apartment, and

42:26

I didn't know either of her roommates, but

42:28

some of my other friends actually lived on

42:30

the same street and they heard

42:33

the

42:33

gunshots, but

42:35

it's Idaho, so hearing random gunshots

42:37

is not that weird. I

42:41

hear them in Greensboro, so, you know, like

42:43

three days ago, so yeah. Yeah,

42:45

so, and then after

42:48

that he left, there

42:50

is a motel,

42:51

I think

42:53

it's still there, on sort of like

42:55

the outskirts of town, and he went there

42:57

and kind of barricaded

42:59

himself in

43:01

there, and there was a bit of a standoff,

43:03

and then he eventually killed himself

43:05

as well, but he went right

43:07

past our house, or our apartment,

43:10

on his way from her apartment

43:12

to the motel, and

43:15

we remember feeling so weirded

43:17

out by that, like, oh, like everything,

43:20

it was just all so close,

43:22

it was just all within like

43:24

a mile

43:24

and a half of our house, the whole thing,

43:28

and so that was on our minds, because

43:30

it had just happened, like the week

43:32

before, and like

43:35

I said, I can't remember if I saw out of it first, or

43:37

if my friend did, but we were like,

43:40

the

43:40

contents of the note fits

43:42

that scenario, like the

43:45

regret, because like that was

43:47

the main feeling, and

43:49

sentiment in the note was just, I

43:52

really messed up, I'm so sorry,

43:54

and just really darkened,

43:58

and that kind of thing, and so

43:59

Because the other thing was I was

44:02

like, I just don't know if someone physically

44:04

could have left that note like I was only

44:06

in the shower for like 10 maybe 15 minutes and

44:11

They would have had to come into the house

44:14

Go into my bedroom put this thing under

44:16

my pillow. Well,

44:17

I was literally it's like five

44:19

feet away

44:21

without making any noise and then gotten out

44:24

before I got out of the bathroom and

44:26

The more I thought about it the more I was like, I just don't

44:28

think that that's possible. You'd have to

44:30

be so quiet You know

44:33

have to be perfect timing So I didn't see

44:35

you coming in or coming out and

44:37

like I didn't ever heard the door open or close

44:39

and it was a heavy Door so usually you would

44:42

hear it if it opened and closed

44:44

So, you know that I was when

44:46

my friend or whoever

44:47

mentioned it when we started talking about that I was like, you

44:49

know that feels like it fits

44:52

more right and

44:54

We tried even to find

44:56

our old

44:58

Classwork from his class

45:00

to see if like we could compare the handwriting But

45:03

unfortunately everything that we had had been graded

45:05

by his TA so we didn't have any of his

45:07

hands but The

45:09

more that we thought about it the more that

45:11

that's what it felt like fit

45:14

was that it was from him and

45:18

I mean I wasn't like super close

45:20

to him or to the woman

45:22

that was murdered But as

45:25

my friends likes to say I'm kind of

45:27

a magnet for

45:27

weird He

45:31

was trying to get a message

45:34

across in some way, right

45:36

You're well, you're an access point Yeah,

45:39

it seems like with the pictures and everything else

45:41

and we have seen that over the years with stories We've

45:43

covered the people that are tuned

45:45

in I think about the movie ghost which

45:47

a lot of people I've seen cuz it's so old Now but

45:50

in that movie ode a mae Brown played

45:52

by with brilliantly by whoopi Goldberg

45:55

Once she figures out that she's a medium then there's just

45:57

like a waiting room just tons of spirits

45:59

are like we gotta get our message through and all of that.

46:01

Yeah. I don't think about that idea. It

46:03

does seem a little bit like some folks

46:06

who have that gift,

46:08

it might be total strangers trying

46:10

to send messages through them back to the living. Yeah.

46:12

I've definitely heard

46:14

a lot of that. Like I listened to

46:16

Jim Harold as well. And there's

46:19

a lot of those stories where somebody

46:21

just meets someone and they're like, Oh,

46:23

so and so said to tell you hello. Or so

46:26

that definitely happened. Well,

46:28

a lot of times it seems like

46:30

if you talk to psychic mediums, they'll

46:32

tell you that you're a bit of a beacon or some

46:35

folks are, everybody has this natural ability

46:37

and talent, but some of it's more developed than others.

46:40

And those entities on the other

46:42

side can once they find somebody

46:44

who can seem open to receiving,

46:47

and most of the time it's just messages that they're

46:49

just dying to get to somebody pun intended,

46:52

that, you know, they're part of the living, but they can't hear them.

46:54

So it's very frustrating. There's no way to transfer

46:56

the message. And in

46:59

your case with your, if it's an ability

47:01

with your family, it's objects.

47:04

And so here's an object that,

47:06

and what's interesting is that, okay, let's assume

47:09

for a moment that this note was written

47:11

by somebody who maybe

47:14

wasn't him, but somebody was troubled and needed to get

47:16

a note that may have been pre-written

47:18

already and undelivered before they

47:20

passed. And it needed to

47:22

get physically to somebody else rather

47:25

than, you know, in a box of junk that was thrown out.

47:27

Or somehow we've seen sometimes

47:29

there's enough energy that these notes are written

47:31

on things are created by spirit

47:35

by the person in for ad hoc,

47:37

you know, for that moment and that purpose. And

47:40

it still needs to get to the right person where

47:42

you're kind of like

47:44

a UPS drop off location, you know,

47:46

you're just open to receiving these things and

47:48

things show up. Now, Amazon spirit

47:51

blocker. There you go.

47:53

Exactly. Well, this case,

47:56

the professor was Ernesto

47:58

Bustamante to Idaho

48:00

professor in psychology. And I just wanted to mention

48:02

this because it does seem

48:04

to fit the tone, as you said, and the vibe of

48:06

the note. And also your

48:09

anecdote about him being very different in class,

48:11

one of the persons quoted

48:14

in, you know, there's a bunch of different news

48:16

outlets that have published articles. This one

48:18

happens to be by NBC News, where they

48:21

have a quote from a close friend, a self-described

48:24

person, Randy Hope, who

48:26

said he was a very close friend of Bustamante and told the police,

48:29

he confirmed that Bustamante had multiple handguns

48:32

and multiple personality disorders, one

48:35

of which Bustamante himself said

48:37

was a psychopathic killer, quote unquote, and

48:39

another that Professor

48:41

Bustamante called the beast. And

48:44

so he was obviously mentally ill and

48:47

struggling, but the note also

48:49

reflects that he's like, which we're saying is like, I'm not sure

48:51

what I'm capable of, you know, I messed up and,

48:54

and just the difference in personality that you would see in the classroom

48:56

where he's usually normally friendly and in control.

48:59

And this time it's like, well, that's not like him. And

49:02

so again, you're trying to make a connection here,

49:04

but that is something that happened

49:07

just a short time before you found the note.

49:09

How long

49:10

was that afterwards before the

49:12

incident where they found him, you know, having been deceased

49:16

and you finding the note? I think it was

49:18

only about a week. Okay.

49:21

Well, it was really close. It was really close. Yeah.

49:23

I believe that the murder

49:26

happened either right before

49:28

classes started, right. Or

49:30

during the first week of class.

49:33

Right. And this happened like

49:35

second or

49:36

third week of class. Yeah.

49:38

So it was very close and time and location.

49:41

Well it seems to, and I think this sometimes can

49:44

put people in a, in a dark tail spin,

49:46

but there was complaints about his behavior in the

49:48

past. It seems like the relationship

49:50

he had with his grad student was very tumultuous

49:54

with some abuse. And I think

49:56

that's what prompted her to leave, but then he was

49:59

either on his own accord. or asked by the university

50:01

to, he was either fired or forced

50:03

to resign, is what the article is

50:05

saying here. And it's still unclear because

50:07

they considered it a personnel matter, not

50:10

a criminal matter. And so all that's kept

50:12

confidential. And, but he had to leave. So

50:14

he loses his job or quits or gets

50:16

fired. Then his relationship

50:19

breaks up. And that may have been

50:21

what pushed him over the edge. And

50:23

just speculating here, but that note,

50:26

just holding it, having your possession was

50:29

so negative and dark

50:31

that

50:32

you folks didn't keep it.

50:34

No, no. We

50:37

kept it for a couple of days. We

50:39

actually tried to give it to the police officer,

50:42

but he

50:42

didn't want to keep it. He probably would have

50:44

had to do more paperwork. Right, right.

50:47

Enter it in the locker. Yeah.

50:50

So we kept it for a few days.

50:52

But when we sort of solidified

50:55

on the, we think,

50:57

honestly, the most likely

50:59

scenario is that it was somehow

51:02

manifested from him. And what you said

51:04

for

51:04

us where you said like, maybe the note was written

51:07

before, right? And then just

51:09

appeared. I never even thought of that,

51:11

which actually makes a lot more sense because I was like,

51:14

man, how powerful the fully

51:16

manifested felt like

51:17

that, right? It really creeped

51:19

me out. I don't think we all know. I mean,

51:21

certainly a lot of people have seen messages form,

51:24

you know, sometimes on a mirror with lipstick

51:27

or the usual thing, and people have claimed that

51:29

or on chalkboards or it depends.

51:32

I think that there's, I do believe in spirits

51:35

that there is some communication there.

51:37

And if it's not an EBP, that's all scratchy. Sometimes

51:39

it's very clear. So there are different ways for

51:42

them to get the message out. And yeah,

51:44

I've been thinking about that. It's like, well, that would take a lot

51:46

of energy perhaps to be like find a piece

51:48

of paper, fold it up, write it out,

51:51

transport that. I mean, but who knows? I, you

51:53

know, certainly we don't all have this nailed down

51:55

as far as how all this stuff works. But I was

51:57

just thinking like, well, maybe even

51:59

more. impetus if this note was

52:01

written and whomever

52:03

never got around to deliver it. So at least,

52:06

like I said, instead of going into the trash, as this person's

52:08

possessions are cleaned out and

52:10

thrown away or just lost that it

52:13

got to somebody and somebody read it. And

52:16

it wasn't the person that it was intended to

52:18

because that was obviously wrong,

52:21

but somebody got to read it. And here we

52:23

are talking about it. Yeah.

52:24

We burned it. We'll

52:27

definitely remember this forever for sure.

52:31

And yeah, we, we burned it

52:33

because it got to the point where I just couldn't touch it anymore.

52:36

It made me almost sick

52:39

to touch it and hold it. And I

52:41

just didn't want it anymore. And I was like, well, if it

52:44

is from him, it's for

52:46

the person he murdered and she's

52:49

not here anymore. So I

52:51

can't give it to her. And, you know,

52:53

I wasn't close enough to know her family

52:55

or anything. So I was

52:57

just like, I'm just going to

52:59

burn this and kind of like release

53:01

that energy. And so

53:04

that is what we did. I think we waited about three

53:06

days.

53:07

Finally, I

53:08

was just like, I can't hold onto this thing anymore.

53:11

So I burned it right onto my

53:14

back balcony.

53:16

Did you immediately feel

53:18

a lightness, a release,

53:20

a heaviness lift? Yeah,

53:22

I felt a lot better once the

53:24

note was gone. I don't

53:26

even think I realized how much of an

53:28

impact it was having until it was gone. That

53:30

whole three days, the whole

53:33

like apartment and everything just felt

53:36

creepy and dark

53:38

and yeah, and talking about it kind

53:40

of gives me chills. Did

53:43

you have

53:45

anybody that you knew or was in the apartment

53:47

during those three days where you had the note or maybe

53:49

even leading up to it or after? Have

53:52

any bad dreams or premonition

53:55

thoughts, anything that came through or

53:58

was it just the note?

53:59

I think.

53:59

my friend did have

54:02

bad dreams. So I don't know if that

54:04

was like a psychic bad dream or just like

54:06

everything is crazy and having

54:09

nightmares. But the first night

54:11

that this happened, we actually invited

54:13

a few of our friends over to stay

54:16

with us. And we all

54:18

had a slumber party in the living

54:20

room because no one wanted to be in there.

54:23

Don't blame me. At the very,

54:26

very least, it was an intrusion

54:28

by a stranger. Somebody

54:30

came into your space. I don't care if you leave the door

54:32

open or not. That is not cool.

54:35

And it feels like a violation.

54:37

So definitely, yeah. And

54:39

also, if it was a real live

54:42

person, they haven't been caught. They

54:44

could be back any time. So I totally

54:46

understand that. Yeah. A

54:48

lot of people that are listening are going to recognize

54:50

Moscow because it's been in the news more recently.

54:53

Yeah. And that is with regard

54:55

to the murders allegedly committed by Brian Coburger

54:59

of the several students in a home

55:01

there in just in

55:03

November of last year, I believe it was.

55:05

Almost exactly a little over 11 years

55:08

after whatever happened, the incident

55:10

that you were talking about.

55:12

So I

55:13

mean, it's a small town. It's a university

55:15

town.

55:17

It does seem a little strange that both

55:19

of these

55:19

crimes happened

55:21

there. So I mentioned that one of

55:24

my friends lived on the same

55:26

street as the murder

55:28

that happened in 2011. She also lived on the same

55:33

street that the more recent

55:35

murders happened. Although like

55:38

years and years apart, like she

55:40

moved from that first place

55:43

to the other one. And she hasn't lived

55:44

in Moscow, I think for

55:46

probably like seven years, but just

55:49

weird that she lived

55:51

right next to both places.

55:54

Wow. Yeah. I mean,

55:57

I think the town's not that big, but still

55:59

it's...

55:59

And it's weird. I mean, of course it

56:02

shocked the country in the world. Kohberger,

56:04

you know, him being arrested for those. And of course

56:06

the four murders did happen. He

56:08

is still being held as of this time that the

56:10

trial has not taken place. But

56:13

the deal is that this doesn't

56:15

happen there. I know that's a cliche, but like

56:17

these kinds of things are not

56:19

typical. If you heard about that in

56:21

one of our larger cities, you'd go, well, yeah, that's,

56:23

you know, look, there's a 8 million people here

56:25

in the county, you know, that kind of thing

56:28

happens. This is very unusual.

56:31

And I think when it does happen to a place

56:33

that people aren't used to that kind of

56:35

thing, at least hearing about it, it's

56:38

even more shocking. And I don't know

56:40

how your friend feels if you've talked to her, but being so

56:42

close to two incidents like

56:44

these, which are, which again are very rare, is

56:47

that's got to be unsettling. It's

56:49

only 25,000 people in Moscow, according to the 2020 census.

56:53

Have you been back to the town since

56:55

then?

56:56

Well, yeah, I lived there

56:58

a whole nother year. And

57:01

then I haven't been back in quite some time.

57:03

I've been back a few times for like friends

57:06

getting married, that kind of thing.

57:08

Honestly, I don't really know anyone

57:10

who lives in Moscow anymore. It's kind

57:12

of like a transitory town. There's

57:16

a University of Idaho

57:17

and then right across the border is Washington

57:19

State University. And

57:22

other than those two towns, there's like

57:24

nothing out there to hit Spokane. And

57:27

so most of the time you can't stay there

57:29

after you graduate because there's very

57:31

few jobs and a whole bunch of people

57:34

who have degrees. Yep. Yeah.

57:37

Unless you're a wheat farmer. Yeah. Out

57:39

on the Palouse. Right. There's a lot

57:41

of farming down there, but... If you start working for

57:43

the university,

57:44

that'll keep you up. But other than that, so

57:47

I don't really know anyone anymore. I

57:49

didn't know any of the four

57:52

people who were murdered recently

57:55

either. Although I did know the

57:57

location because like I said, my friend

57:59

I lived very close to there.

58:02

But yeah, I remember seeing it,

58:04

uh, on NPR and I was like, Oh my

58:07

God,

58:07

I can't believe that. And

58:09

you know, I sort of followed it for a while

58:11

because I was interested at

58:13

New Moscow pretty well. Have

58:15

you had any additional or more recent

58:18

incidents that have happened?

58:19

Mostly just the stuff, uh,

58:22

moving around in my house.

58:24

That's still going on. Yeah. Yeah. That's

58:26

still going on pretty regularly.

58:29

I don't know. I kind of negotiated with whatever

58:31

it is, the smoothing stuff.

58:34

It will give me the things back. It just won't

58:36

acknowledge it. So

58:40

I sometimes, I wouldn't

58:42

say have premonitions per se,

58:44

but I get like feelings sometimes

58:46

like one that's pretty spot

58:48

on is I will always slow down

58:51

before a cop is ahead

58:53

of me. I don't know how I do it,

58:55

but every time. That's a good one. So

58:58

that's a nice skill to have. Yeah. You

59:00

hear your own internal Cobra radar detector.

59:02

So that's handy. Yeah. I think

59:05

I could be more open to things

59:07

if I chose to be, but I've sort of

59:09

gotten to a point in my life where I

59:11

don't want to constantly be dealing with

59:14

that kind of stuff. Right. So I

59:16

kind of just tune a lot of it out. Yeah.

59:19

But that's pretty common. Well, you hate,

59:21

you know, the needy ghost kitty is enough.

59:24

Yeah. And it doesn't have like bad vibes at

59:26

all. It's just sort of

59:28

there and I'm actually going to be moving

59:31

in December.

59:32

I've lived in this house for

59:34

almost 10 years

59:36

and I'm going to tell it it could come with me.

59:39

Maybe

59:41

you should put down a little cat carrier.

59:43

Yeah. And you close it up, carry

59:46

it with you. Won't even know if it's in there, but hey, well,

59:49

Megan, we just want to thank you so much for coming on the show

59:51

and telling your story. It's a really interesting

59:53

story. And, you know, from all of us, all,

59:56

all due respect to the victims of these

59:58

real world crimes that are connected. to this story,

1:00:01

but your side of it is even

1:00:03

if it wasn't paranormal, it's still a super kind

1:00:05

of scary. It's a good, you

1:00:08

should go on my friend Andrew Tate's

1:00:10

show, Let's Not Meet, not the Romanian

1:00:13

Andrew Tate, but Let's Not Meet.

1:00:15

This would be a good story for his show. Yeah,

1:00:17

like I said, it's the scariest

1:00:19

thing that ever happened to me because either somebody

1:00:22

came into my house and left

1:00:24

a creepy note while I was standing

1:00:27

naked a few feet away from them, or

1:00:29

it manifested uniformly

1:00:31

on

1:00:32

my bed under my pillow. Neither

1:00:35

option is ideal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:38

Well, thanks again for joining us and good

1:00:41

luck with the move and the ghost

1:00:43

kitty. Okay, thank you. Yep. Thanks.

1:00:46

I'll tell you one thing, I am definitely not

1:00:49

taking showers with the door unlocked anymore.

1:00:51

I can honestly and accurately

1:00:54

speak for the world when we say we would have liked

1:00:56

you to have done that anyway. All

1:00:59

right. Our next guest has more than

1:01:01

just a few stories that seem to have been

1:01:04

culminating in intensity throughout

1:01:06

his life. Yeah. And there's even

1:01:08

a close encounters vibe in one of them. Yeah,

1:01:10

there's a close encounters vibe in one of them, but they are

1:01:13

all quite strange and

1:01:15

a

1:01:15

little bit unsettling.

1:01:18

Our next guest is Chan Bryan, whose

1:01:20

story stuck with us because

1:01:23

of all the different things going on, the

1:01:25

many years, all of these experiences

1:01:28

have been going on for him. And it is one of

1:01:30

those lifetime stories punctuated

1:01:32

by some very high strangeness and we just

1:01:34

had to have him on. So Chad, welcome

1:01:36

to the show. And you do

1:01:39

a little podcasting yourself, don't you? Yeah, I've

1:01:41

got my little podcast. It's been

1:01:43

dormant for a little while. It was wireless dad's podcast,

1:01:45

but I do have a couple other things going on. I host a

1:01:48

weekly sports live YouTube show

1:01:50

Wednesday morning called Come on Ref. I

1:01:52

also have my little YouTube spot in

1:01:54

the world chat about sports. So I'm

1:01:57

very infantile in the process.

1:01:59

You know what I mean? We're starting up. You stick with it.

1:02:02

And I think in a few, four or

1:02:04

five more years, Scott and I might have

1:02:06

this one down. We're just, it takes

1:02:08

a lot. You just got to peck away at it. It's

1:02:10

a hard thing to do to keep one going, as

1:02:12

we always say. Easier to start, hard

1:02:15

to keep going. But we're glad you're here. And

1:02:17

when did you start listening to Astonishing Legends? I've

1:02:20

been listening for about three, maybe three and a

1:02:22

half years now. I can't remember the exact

1:02:24

first episode, but I remember that I was just,

1:02:26

I worked at a job, I was driving a lot. And

1:02:29

you're honestly, you guys are the first podcast

1:02:32

that I ever listened to. I had never listened

1:02:34

to any episode of any other podcast before

1:02:36

you guys. Wow. I started looking through your episodes

1:02:38

and you guys had like these two and a half hour, like,

1:02:41

you know,

1:02:42

three episodes, like nine hours, I was

1:02:44

like, this is for me. Like,

1:02:47

I'm all in for that. After so many

1:02:49

things that have happened to you in your life, that

1:02:52

I don't know if there's a pattern, but as you

1:02:55

kind of mentioned, maybe something's keeping

1:02:57

an eye on you. And are

1:02:59

these connected, as we always say, these

1:03:01

random kind of things throughout one's

1:03:03

life, and certainly a lot more than I've

1:03:06

experienced Scott and I put together. But

1:03:09

if you would, then

1:03:10

please start at the beginning when this

1:03:12

started to happen. And when you first started to realize

1:03:15

in your young life that maybe

1:03:18

weird things that aren't supposed to happen

1:03:20

are happening.

1:03:21

Yeah, it's a great way to put it to. It's just something

1:03:23

keeping an eye on me. I remember kind of

1:03:25

feeling like that, but it is. It's so hard to tie things

1:03:27

together. But I can remember

1:03:30

it stuck out because it was bizarre. You

1:03:32

know, it was like the first thing that had really happened to me. I

1:03:34

think that

1:03:36

maybe I was old enough to realize that it didn't

1:03:38

make sense. We had two couches. They faced

1:03:40

each other in our little living room or whatever. And I was playing

1:03:42

just these little blocks that I had,

1:03:45

just like a builder kit. And I think I was building a

1:03:47

lunar lander looking thing. I don't know what I was doing. I have

1:03:49

no idea. I wanted to leave it a certain way.

1:03:51

So I put the cushions of the couch up around it. Like I

1:03:53

built like a little, you know, like a little home for it, basically.

1:03:56

Not really knowing

1:03:57

who or what I thought I was protecting it from. because

1:04:00

we were all going to leave. But me, my

1:04:02

parents and my sister, my sister's like 11 years older

1:04:04

than me, not really a prankster. She's not, I

1:04:06

wouldn't have done this. But anyway, we've gone for the day and

1:04:08

we come home and

1:04:09

I walk over to the couch and I'm like getting ready to like

1:04:12

finish building whatever I was working on. And it's not

1:04:14

there. I'm looking around. I'm like, someone

1:04:16

clean it up or you know, I don't know what happened. I look over

1:04:18

and everything's on the other couch, but all the pieces

1:04:20

are in different arrangements and there were different things

1:04:22

put together different ways and the cushions were knocked

1:04:24

down. And

1:04:25

you know, it was all different.

1:04:27

I do remember asking my parents like, Hey, what's this? Like what

1:04:29

happened? Because I left these here. And

1:04:31

you know, they did the little kid thing like, Oh, I'm

1:04:34

sure you've moved it and forgot or you

1:04:36

did this or did that or whatever. Because you

1:04:38

know, I have kids now and sometimes when I say creepy

1:04:41

things, I don't want to admit that, Oh, yeah, hey, something's

1:04:43

going on here. Right. But I knew I knew

1:04:45

what it had looked like and how I had left it. And

1:04:47

for some reason, like I guess just because I was so

1:04:50

small, that really struck me at the time.

1:04:52

Like now I don't think I think anything of it. I was

1:04:54

kind of cool. Like

1:04:55

something weird happened. But it affected me

1:04:58

to the point where that house had a feel.

1:05:00

It was a new house. My parents had it built.

1:05:02

It's hard to say if anything was going on or

1:05:04

if it was just kind of a local thing. My wife

1:05:06

always tells me that I'm haunted. But

1:05:10

it could be a combination. She's where ever

1:05:12

happened to her until she met me. So I don't know. It's convenient

1:05:14

to just blame it all on you. But the

1:05:17

pieces themselves, they were rearranged

1:05:20

in a way that you know that you

1:05:22

hadn't left them. But did

1:05:24

it build something else? No, yeah,

1:05:26

I don't think it was anything that really stuck out as recognizable

1:05:29

as like a message or like, Hey, I built this,

1:05:31

look at this. It was just sort of like some blocks

1:05:33

taken apart and put back together in a different way.

1:05:36

You know, when you're a kid, you've got a project, right? And it's like, all

1:05:38

you think about it's like that you're saying, what if you work on the

1:05:40

thing again.

1:05:41

So when I got home, I was, I was taken

1:05:43

aback that it wasn't the same as

1:05:45

I had left it. And I knew that no one

1:05:47

had been in the house.

1:05:49

All four of us were gone. We don't have animals. We didn't have animals,

1:05:51

no animals at all. So that was the first thing

1:05:53

that got your attention. But how long after

1:05:55

that,

1:05:57

did you start having recurring

1:05:59

nightmares?

1:05:59

or just bad vibes in that

1:06:02

house.

1:06:02

It wasn't long.

1:06:04

The chicken or the egg, you know? Did

1:06:06

I just start noticing things or was I maybe a little creeped

1:06:09

out and it kind of ramped up because

1:06:11

I thought about it consciously a little more.

1:06:14

I would have terrifying dreams about

1:06:16

my sister's bedroom. And then, yeah, in my

1:06:18

dreams, I would walk by her room and I would fall down

1:06:20

and it felt like something was pulling me into the room. And

1:06:23

it never obviously happened in real waking

1:06:25

life, but it felt so real. It felt

1:06:27

so vivid that I would try to avoid her room I

1:06:30

would go to the other side of the hallway when I walked by her room and straighten

1:06:32

my shoulder against the wall as much

1:06:34

as I could because, you know, that was a visceral

1:06:36

feeling. I mean, that feeling of something grabbing your ankles

1:06:38

and pulling you into a room is...

1:06:41

It's not comfortable. It's not good. Did

1:06:43

you ever see what it was? Did you ever

1:06:46

see hands or just this experience

1:06:48

of being pulled in? I had to choose. I don't even

1:06:50

know that I felt hands. It was just like gravitational

1:06:53

pull. Like, I just... I was going and I couldn't stop

1:06:55

it. I was dragging onto the carpet, whatever. I just couldn't

1:06:58

stop it.

1:06:59

And I remember just feeling like

1:07:01

whatever was in there, I didn't want to be in there with it, right?

1:07:03

And you get to the point where it would

1:07:05

just be so terrifying that I would wake up. It

1:07:08

never culminated in anything

1:07:10

really

1:07:10

frustrating if it were like a horror

1:07:12

movie because you would never actually see the plot.

1:07:15

But, you know, what was that about? But

1:07:17

I had that dream for years. I mean, we lived in that house

1:07:19

until I was 11 or 12 years old.

1:07:22

And I had that dream 50 or 60 times. And

1:07:25

like I said, it never happened the same way. It was

1:07:27

always a little bit different.

1:07:28

And I think that's another thing that stuck out. It wasn't the same dream

1:07:31

just repeating. It was like something

1:07:33

in my mind, in my brain at least, or that part

1:07:35

of my brain when I was asleep, something was wrong with that room.

1:07:38

And just the room. And then once you'd moved out of

1:07:40

the house, I think you said you

1:07:42

had grown up in two different houses. Once

1:07:44

you moved out of that house, it never really came back

1:07:47

again.

1:07:48

No, not that feeling. I

1:07:50

had a couple other creepy dreams here and

1:07:52

there, but nothing like that. I mean, that felt

1:07:54

so real. It was

1:07:56

such a visceral feeling. Like I

1:07:59

felt like I was... going to be

1:08:01

murdered in that room. Like it just felt horrible.

1:08:03

Obviously I took it a little bit differently

1:08:06

than if I had to dream from 44. I'm

1:08:08

experiencing a little that as we all age

1:08:11

how you interpret these things being

1:08:14

a kid and what you're into

1:08:16

and how you look at it and especially after a lifetime

1:08:19

whereas you're older you start to get into your

1:08:21

30s and 40s a lifetime of these experiences

1:08:26

and what they start to mean. But

1:08:28

what house was it where you had the incident

1:08:31

when you were playing in your parents

1:08:33

bedroom?

1:08:33

Same house. Really probably

1:08:36

not long after that because my sister still lived at home.

1:08:38

She

1:08:38

would have been 18 at the time when I was seven. I

1:08:41

remember my parents had gone away and always

1:08:43

wrestle on their bed all these stuffed animals I had.

1:08:45

I was huge WWF fan back then.

1:08:49

I was in there wrestling around and I had a belt and everything.

1:08:52

This is so vivid to me that you know that's what I was doing

1:08:54

at the time.

1:08:55

And my sister walked around the corner

1:08:58

and I'm sure you guys remember like the 80s outfits.

1:09:01

The tops 100% match the bottles.

1:09:03

It's almost like a tracksuit but not you know and

1:09:05

I can't remember the order. She was either wearing this

1:09:08

black polka dots or black with blue polka.

1:09:10

I can't really remember which way it went. She was either

1:09:12

wearing that one first and she had

1:09:14

another one that was like red blue and yellow and I remember

1:09:17

really blue too. She walked in and I'll

1:09:19

never forget. She said what do you want for lunch?

1:09:21

Nothing felt off. Nothing felt odd. I answered

1:09:24

and she left and I mean she walked

1:09:26

back in less than three

1:09:28

seconds later in a completely different outfit. Can

1:09:30

anyone change that fast? I mean is that a thing? Like Beyonce

1:09:33

can but there's like 30 people and

1:09:35

she stands behind a curtain. That struck me as odd.

1:09:37

She walked right back in

1:09:39

completely different outfit and goes hey what do you want for

1:09:41

lunch?

1:09:42

And immediately I didn't know what fight or

1:09:44

flight was. Now I know. Yeah. My heart

1:09:46

started to beat like it felt like I could hear it

1:09:48

coming out of my ears right. I don't know what that

1:09:50

was but I knew

1:09:52

something was off. Something was really wrong. Something

1:09:54

was wrong with my sister. I didn't know if I was talking to

1:09:57

my sister. I didn't know if I was talking to I don't know.

1:09:59

I mean I don't really remember exactly what I was thinking.

1:10:01

And

1:10:01

just trying to like,

1:10:03

get her to admit to me that she had

1:10:05

done that or that she knew what was going on or

1:10:08

I wanted to explain it somehow. I

1:10:10

just wanted to hear her explanation for how

1:10:13

that happened. I mean, it was her it was her twice. It was

1:10:15

an exact copy of her. There

1:10:17

was no difference. I mean, this was in my house. Like,

1:10:20

that's what strikes me as like the most terrifying

1:10:23

thing about that. It was such an innocuous.

1:10:25

It wasn't like three in the morning. I wasn't watching scary

1:10:27

movies. I wasn't, you know, I was just

1:10:29

playing. It was like, you know, it was lunchtime. This

1:10:32

thing happened, you know, and it clearly was something that happened.

1:10:34

And that's really the time that I really,

1:10:37

I think started to look over my shoulder a lot because

1:10:39

it's different to have a dream.

1:10:42

Okay, I mean, even as a kid, you have a dream and it's scary.

1:10:44

Okay, you wake up and you're over it. But this was different

1:10:47

because I was wide awake. And

1:10:49

now I think that's part of the panic because

1:10:51

I'm like trying to get my sister to tell me what's going on. But I don't

1:10:53

even know if I'm talking to my sister now. Like, I

1:10:56

don't know. And I just it's

1:10:58

one of the things that I'll never have the answers

1:11:00

to that. I never will. What we hear

1:11:03

often with these stories, and of course, I think one of

1:11:05

the first ones we came across where it was somebody we

1:11:07

knew and had on

1:11:09

the show was Lauren with

1:11:11

the bubby voice, where she sees

1:11:13

her sister, but something

1:11:16

was off. That was a haircut from

1:11:18

or she had a haircut that you know, that happened two weeks

1:11:20

ago, like that was impossible. Or the

1:11:22

voice didn't sound exactly right. Even though

1:11:25

it was a jokey voice that they used to do.

1:11:28

Did you notice anything between

1:11:30

either one that didn't seem right,

1:11:32

even though they're wearing different outfits? Was

1:11:34

the look exactly the same? Was the voice is

1:11:37

exactly the same? I feel like they were.

1:11:39

And, you

1:11:40

know, it all happened so fast.

1:11:43

I think if I had had that experience 20 or 30 times, and, you

1:11:46

know, I had documented it and really

1:11:48

looked into it, I might have noticed a difference. But I don't know

1:11:51

that that being the first time if I would have noticed a difference,

1:11:53

you know, especially if it wasn't heard the

1:11:55

first time, because I you know, that's,

1:11:57

I guess when I started to come back in is what I knew

1:12:00

something was wrong. And it wasn't necessarily

1:12:02

that something was off about

1:12:04

one of her. It was

1:12:05

just that I knew she couldn't walk

1:12:07

out, change clothes and walk right back in and ask

1:12:10

the same question. I mean, she was just puzzled. Like she had

1:12:13

no idea and I started to scare her after

1:12:15

a while. So the second one was the real

1:12:17

sister, the one that stuck

1:12:19

and that outfit. As you

1:12:21

say, she started to get kind of confused and annoyed

1:12:24

like, why you keep asking me this? What

1:12:26

was the result of that? Did

1:12:28

you discuss it? Did you tell her what just

1:12:31

happened? How did she react? I know when

1:12:33

my parents came home, I tried to tell them what happened. I'm

1:12:35

seven, eight years old. I mean, they, I'm

1:12:37

not gonna say they blew me off, but I think they tried

1:12:39

to

1:12:40

placate me a little bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah,

1:12:42

everything's okay. It's no big deal. Like overactive

1:12:44

imagination, whatever you're playing too hard. I don't know. It

1:12:47

felt like no one would believe me, you know, and

1:12:49

I'm like, I know what I saw. I mean, I 100% know

1:12:52

what I saw. And this was as

1:12:54

with the dream, it was such a visceral feeling that

1:12:57

there was no way this wasn't real. You

1:12:59

know, I mean, what's happened?

1:13:00

Backing up just one second, they both

1:13:02

asked you the same thing, roughly the same question

1:13:05

or a little bit different or? No, same. What do you

1:13:07

want for lunch? I remember because at the

1:13:09

time, my sister would make me what she called a fried

1:13:11

bologna. It was just bologna, just some cheese,

1:13:13

and she would actually put it in the microwave, warm

1:13:15

it up and the bologna would kind of curl up and it looked like a fried

1:13:17

bologna.

1:13:18

And that's what I wanted. I still remember that

1:13:21

answer. I still remember that's what I wanted for lunch

1:13:23

that day. I mean, this incident, it stayed with

1:13:25

me.

1:13:26

I guess every once in a while it kind of floats into the back of your

1:13:28

head. You don't think about it every day. But

1:13:30

I mean, the details are so vividly

1:13:32

clear to me that I

1:13:33

just feel like there's no mistake.

1:13:35

I didn't make a mistake. I know what I saw. Right.

1:13:37

You know, and that's the theme of everyone's

1:13:40

story, right? Because you hear a story from someone else

1:13:42

and it's impossible to know because you weren't

1:13:44

there.

1:13:45

When I hear other people's stories, I know, maybe they just

1:13:47

saw that. You know, you start to like kind of discount

1:13:49

it, not because you don't believe the person, but

1:13:51

sometimes I think it's because we just something it's something we

1:13:54

can't really wrap our minds around too much. It's

1:13:56

too much because it's impossible.

1:13:58

And that feeling like he

1:14:00

said it wasn't she came back as a monster

1:14:03

if the gorn dressed in an 80s

1:14:05

outfit it was exactly her sister it was a

1:14:08

duplication of the mundane

1:14:10

but that was enough to like that can happen

1:14:13

so when you see that it just it really twists

1:14:15

the knobs in your head i think and

1:14:17

you start to question everything have

1:14:20

you ever had a fried baloney sandwich since

1:14:22

then

1:14:22

yes i have i've had i've

1:14:25

progressed to actual fried baloney oh

1:14:27

pretty cool i know we lost the care of me but i

1:14:30

had one a month ago they're pretty good yeah

1:14:32

my family has a place at the beach and there's a little place

1:14:34

down there called the burger shack and it's one of their

1:14:37

specialties and it's they're freaking delicious i've

1:14:39

moved up i live in northeast ohio

1:14:41

now i moved up from midwest ohio and

1:14:44

i no longer can find you know like the pounded

1:14:46

out pork tenderloin can't find those anymore can't

1:14:48

really find fried baloney sandwiches it's very

1:14:50

frustrating

1:14:55

you know what's right around the corner well for

1:14:57

one the holidays obviously exactly

1:15:00

and that means many of us are about to

1:15:02

do a whole lot of cooking mostly

1:15:04

for other people and that often means ironically

1:15:08

we're not always eating so well for ourselves

1:15:10

when we're rushing around with our fall activities

1:15:13

and putting others needs before ours

1:15:15

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1:15:17

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1:18:32

So

1:18:33

that was one bizarre incident. I

1:18:36

think we're doing a count here. If this was

1:18:38

a video, a YouTube show, we'd have

1:18:40

a big number two posted on the

1:18:42

screen. Because we're going to come up on number

1:18:45

three. Now,

1:18:47

in this case, we're talking about two

1:18:49

or three years later, right? After

1:18:51

this happened with your sister, is this

1:18:53

a different house? No, same house.

1:18:55

She had moved out by this point. I

1:18:58

was basically an only child in that house.

1:19:00

I remember this really, really well too. Because

1:19:02

they're like quantifying events, I guess you would say, around

1:19:04

it.

1:19:05

We were watching the Final Four. I remember watching,

1:19:07

I think it was Duke and UNLV were on TV at the time. But

1:19:10

it was around Easter. We were going to color Easter eggs and all the stuff

1:19:12

out. That was like the little pause.

1:19:15

Yeah, that's right. This is what I love about these

1:19:17

stories too. These anchoring

1:19:20

events that make it real,

1:19:23

were more real somehow. In this

1:19:25

sense, this is a house

1:19:27

again you know very well. But this time

1:19:30

you're outside in your treehouse, right? Yeah,

1:19:32

I was in a treehouse.

1:19:34

My dad built me a really, really

1:19:36

cool treehouse when I was a kid. It stood on four

1:19:38

legs. It had concrete.

1:19:41

It was in the ground. It was solid. I'm

1:19:43

climbing up in this thing. There were windows on all

1:19:46

four sides of the treehouse. There's a big door. I

1:19:48

guess you didn't have the most visibility. But you

1:19:50

could open up windows on each side. You could see everywhere

1:19:53

around the treehouse. There were really no blind spots, right? So

1:19:56

I'm up there.

1:19:57

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm probably just passing

1:19:59

time.

1:19:59

the kid.

1:20:00

And I hear my neighbor's

1:20:03

voice.

1:20:03

And, you know, he said, Hello, Chad, whatever. And I'm like,

1:20:06

Oh, that's my neighbor. I don't want to say his name on the show. But

1:20:08

I know his voice. That's my next door neighbor. So I said,

1:20:11

Hello, you know, how are you?

1:20:12

And he goes, What are you doing for Easter? I'm like, Oh, we're gonna color

1:20:14

eggs. And I'm starting to answer. But like, while I'm answering,

1:20:17

I'm looking out the windows. I'm like,

1:20:20

where is he?

1:20:20

It sounded like it came from over here, right? And

1:20:23

I'm looking, I'm like, he wouldn't have asked me what I was doing

1:20:25

for Easter and just sprinted back to his house. That's

1:20:27

weird, right? So

1:20:28

I'm looking for him. And I'm like, you know, I said

1:20:30

his name a few times. I'm like, Where are you?

1:20:32

And it stopped responding to me.

1:20:35

It was almost like,

1:20:36

when it picked up on

1:20:39

the fact that I picked up that there was a problem,

1:20:42

it stopped responding right. I can't slide

1:20:44

under the radar anymore. It's

1:20:46

so hard to like, really

1:20:49

pinpoint what or why.

1:20:51

But now that's the second time that's happened to me where something

1:20:54

has mimicked someone that I know. And I

1:20:56

didn't know anything about a mimic back then. I didn't know to

1:20:58

think anything of it. I just I was terrified.

1:21:01

And on top of that, I'm 11 steps

1:21:04

up in this treehouse or whatever. And

1:21:06

you know, now, I mean, now you have to formulate

1:21:08

the courage to go down the ladder. It's not

1:21:10

just running away, right? Like, I don't

1:21:12

even remember if I hit all the rungs on the ladder, probably

1:21:14

not. But I remember sprinting back

1:21:17

into the back. And I was I mean, this time I was really upset.

1:21:19

I busted back to a cry.

1:21:21

I was like, okay, something's wrong.

1:21:24

Something's going on. And again, that was an experience

1:21:26

where no one was there. No one experienced

1:21:29

it with me, right?

1:21:30

So my parents are like, it was like to the

1:21:32

point where I think my parents, I think my dad went over and asked

1:21:34

my neighbor like, Hey, you weren't in our backyard, you

1:21:37

know, he probably looked at him like he was crazy. This is nicest

1:21:39

guy in the world, you know, this was an adult neighbor.

1:21:41

Yeah. And a pastor, I think, right? He

1:21:44

was a pastor. Yeah, I mean, this was a serious

1:21:46

person. He wasn't gonna come play a prank on a 10 year

1:21:48

old kid. It wasn't on his radar, right? He

1:21:51

wasn't trying to be creepy. It was, you know, just a nice conversation

1:21:54

I would have with my neighbor. It was a normal conversation.

1:21:56

Right, right. It didn't strike me as odd

1:21:58

until I started looking

1:21:59

the windows and I couldn't find him.

1:22:01

Was there a fence between your backyards, between

1:22:04

his? No. No. That's not the impression

1:22:06

I got because you were like, could he have sprinted back to his house? So

1:22:08

basically, it was sort of a common area

1:22:10

between whatever you guys didn't have anything on the property

1:22:13

line that would have prevented him. So more

1:22:15

prevented you from seeing him necessary. It's not like you

1:22:17

look down and there's a six foot wooden fence

1:22:19

that if he was up close to it, you wouldn't see him

1:22:22

or anything like that. A couple small fruit trees, but that's

1:22:24

it. Right. Right. When he asked you questions,

1:22:26

you answered,

1:22:27

was there any building upon

1:22:29

your answers or did it seem like just

1:22:31

a list of random questions? Was

1:22:34

it a real conversation is what I'm asking. Yeah, it

1:22:36

felt like it was just, there

1:22:39

were no follow up questions if that's what you mean. Yeah, there

1:22:41

was no like, Oh, you're, you're coloring eggs.

1:22:43

How many eggs? What color? Yeah, nothing like that. It

1:22:45

was just like, basically like, Hi, Chad, how are you? And

1:22:47

I was like, Hello, neighbor. I'm good. How

1:22:49

are you? What are you doing for Easter? I'm, I'm

1:22:52

painting it. And this is like, I

1:22:53

think there were only a couple of questions. I can't remember

1:22:55

any other questions, to be honest with you. Again,

1:22:58

the fight or flight feeling kind of kicked in. And,

1:23:00

you know, some of your senses, I think go away a little

1:23:02

bit when you, when it when it's extreme enough,

1:23:05

right? Right. So I don't necessarily remember

1:23:08

what I was thinking about. I just I remember panicking

1:23:10

again, and trying to, yeah, there's more of

1:23:12

a sense of panic this time, because I was out isolated

1:23:15

away from my house. Right. The

1:23:17

first time it was weird, I was in my house, and it was a

1:23:19

little terrifying, because it was, you know, very

1:23:21

bizarre. But I'm in the backyard.

1:23:23

There's no help back here, right? I 10 year

1:23:25

old brain is like, is this the thing that tries to pull me into

1:23:27

my sister's room? Like, I don't know. I have

1:23:30

no idea. You know, I don't know if they're related. I

1:23:32

have no idea. So it was a building upon

1:23:34

or a ramping up of what you

1:23:36

said was that dizzy, confused

1:23:39

feeling. Yeah, yeah. Just not

1:23:41

right. Like, this is what's going

1:23:43

on here. Yeah. And sometimes it's funny, because

1:23:46

I look back on that now. And I know what I know.

1:23:48

And sometimes I know that when people have experiences,

1:23:50

you can get those feelings. If

1:23:53

the atmosphere changes, or whatever,

1:23:55

some people are very sensitive, they get dizzy, they get lightheaded.

1:23:57

I sometimes wonder

1:23:59

what's

1:23:59

Was it fight or flight or was it that significant

1:24:02

of an experience where I was actually feeling that presence?

1:24:04

I mean, I don't know. Well, here's what I would say to people. It's

1:24:06

like, well, that could be a trigger or

1:24:09

a

1:24:10

side effect of a panic attack

1:24:12

coming on. But one preceded

1:24:14

the other. It's not like you started to feel this panic and then

1:24:16

you heard the voice. The voice

1:24:19

triggered the same feeling. And did you think

1:24:21

immediately after this was happening, you're scrambling

1:24:23

down the ladder and running to the back door. Did

1:24:26

you connect it immediately to that incident with

1:24:28

your sister's doppelganger? I

1:24:30

don't think I had yet. All

1:24:32

I could think of at that moment was that this thing was

1:24:34

like hot on my heels and it was going to catch me. Right?

1:24:37

Like I had to run. That was it. Once

1:24:40

I got in the house, I'd be fine. I don't know why that was the barrier.

1:24:42

Clearly, I could get in there and do whatever I wanted. But

1:24:44

yeah, I thought once I told my parents, it was going to be fine. So

1:24:47

I just wanted to get inside.

1:24:48

Well now we're going to drift a couple of summers

1:24:51

later. And this is another

1:24:53

house. This is a house that

1:24:56

your parents are building from scratch

1:24:58

out in the country.

1:24:59

Yeah.

1:25:00

And now we're up to high

1:25:02

strangeness incident number four.

1:25:05

This is the first time I think

1:25:07

where I had actually seen something.

1:25:09

Well, it is the first time where I had seen something

1:25:11

in front of me.

1:25:13

I mean, I was looking at it like I saw something that

1:25:15

wasn't right. My parents were

1:25:18

basically building a house next door to my

1:25:20

best friend's family. We played Little

1:25:22

League Baseball together, all that stuff. It was

1:25:25

really exciting that we were going to be neighbors now. I'm

1:25:27

thinking about like a lot of these shared experiences that

1:25:29

I had because this one is a shared experience.

1:25:31

Some of the shared experiences I've kind of fallen out

1:25:33

of touch with these people. And I don't know that

1:25:36

obviously things happen. Time passes. But

1:25:38

I thought about that this morning as I was thinking about

1:25:40

like talking with you guys. I'm like, I don't know. Sometimes

1:25:42

I wonder if like we were just maybe uncomfortable talking

1:25:44

about it with each other to the point where things

1:25:47

just sort of fell apart eventually, you know? It

1:25:49

happens though. I mean, it's a natural drifting apart.

1:25:51

You know, you start to develop different interests than

1:25:54

when you were 12 or 13. But

1:25:56

you had a shared experience. This

1:25:59

is also very common. common as well. And

1:26:01

sometimes it's very

1:26:03

traumatic.

1:26:04

Two of the cases that we came across were people

1:26:06

that, well, and himself. Terry

1:26:08

Lovelace, again, I'm mentioning him, he and

1:26:11

his best friend, when you experienced something that

1:26:13

dramatic and traumatic, you couldn't

1:26:15

be friends anymore. Not that

1:26:17

Terry didn't want to, the other, his

1:26:20

best friend couldn't handle it. And

1:26:22

two of the stories that were in his second book, you

1:26:24

know, it is strange to sisters who were very

1:26:27

close. And there was a case

1:26:29

of firefighters in Texas who used

1:26:31

to go hunting and they all saw something and had something

1:26:34

really strange happen and they couldn't be around

1:26:36

each other again. But it was just too much for them

1:26:38

to be all together again. I'm not sure if this

1:26:40

reached that level, but when

1:26:43

you were playing around and now

1:26:45

we're talking about this house and again, this is how far

1:26:47

away is this new place out in the country from

1:26:49

the old house that was haunted? Five minute

1:26:52

drive. Right. But in this place,

1:26:54

there's port concrete, there's a hole for a

1:26:57

basement, a dugout basement. And

1:26:59

what was being built at the

1:27:01

time was or half finished, I guess, was a pole

1:27:04

bard.

1:27:05

It was about 80% done. Yeah.

1:27:07

So I think three of the sides

1:27:10

were up of the sheet metal and the back

1:27:12

was wide open. They just hadn't finished that yet. Right. And

1:27:14

my neighbor's house was built. It was, you know,

1:27:17

100% up. They were living there. It was good. And

1:27:19

they had a pole bard as well. So all

1:27:21

we had on our side of the property was just, you know, the concrete was

1:27:23

poured for the basement.

1:27:25

And then, like you said, the pole barn, which was mostly finished.

1:27:27

So for some reason, I don't know why we were always

1:27:29

playing some kind of sport, but I mean, we almost never played

1:27:31

soccer, but we were in the pole barn playing stock. And

1:27:34

the deal was if you scored a goal,

1:27:36

the other person had to go get the ball because you were either kicking

1:27:38

it out of the door or, you know, out of the back of the ball. So

1:27:42

I, he scored on me or whatever. And I went to, I

1:27:44

tried to cheat. I tried to like, you know, lean between

1:27:46

the frame of the pole, but I don't want to get all the way

1:27:48

out. For some reason, I have no idea why. But

1:27:50

I remember as I started to reach for the ball,

1:27:53

I saw a shadow coming around the corner

1:27:55

of the barn and I thought, Oh, well, it's whatever. It's

1:27:57

my neighbor's. Okay, good. You're going to grab the ball. I don't want to do

1:27:59

this anyway.

1:27:59

I went to reach and I looked at the shadow

1:28:02

and like the first thing that I noticed was like

1:28:04

the shadow just came from nothing. It was a shadow

1:28:06

on the ground, I should say, not an upper shadow.

1:28:08

It was a shadow that was cast on the ground

1:28:11

and

1:28:12

two really, really bizarre things that

1:28:15

have always, it

1:28:16

still gives me chills to think about these two

1:28:18

things. First of all, it went from

1:28:21

feet to head toward the sun, toward

1:28:23

the light source. I've scoured. I

1:28:26

have listened. I've read.

1:28:28

I have tried to find a story where someone had an experience

1:28:31

just with that little detail that matches

1:28:33

and I've never heard anyone specifically say that.

1:28:35

Not that I think I had like a one in a life, but

1:28:38

I've been looking for someone else that's experienced

1:28:40

that. Because

1:28:41

that to me, I don't

1:28:43

know, even at the time, that just felt different.

1:28:45

That felt wrong, you

1:28:47

know, very, very wrong.

1:28:48

And then on top of that, the way that it moved,

1:28:51

it was like I was looking at

1:28:53

it through a glass of water.

1:28:56

The water had a little bit of a sort

1:28:58

of a, like it was sort of there

1:29:00

on our plane, maybe, but not all the way

1:29:03

enough to cast the shadow the

1:29:05

wrong way. But I don't know. It

1:29:07

just, I froze. I 100% froze.

1:29:11

It's the first time in my life that I could say,

1:29:13

I just, I saw something. My brain

1:29:15

eventually said, that's not right. You

1:29:18

know, that's not a normal thing that you see every

1:29:20

day. Sit here and stare at it like

1:29:22

a dumb person. Like I just stood there. I didn't know what to do.

1:29:25

My neighbor ran. He was gone. He

1:29:27

was gone. In that hider flight mode, which you've now

1:29:29

experienced several times, at least three here

1:29:32

in your young life. To be clear, though,

1:29:34

what we're talking about, the description

1:29:36

of this is imagine if a

1:29:39

person is standing on the ground, it's

1:29:41

a nice sunny day, clear skies,

1:29:43

and the sun is behind them. What

1:29:46

you would expect is the shadow starts at their

1:29:48

feet and progresses towards you

1:29:50

or in the line of the sun. Right?

1:29:53

Like anything else normal, like a sundial. Anything

1:29:56

else, the shadow starts at their feet

1:29:58

and depending on the. angle of the Sun will

1:30:01

determine the length of shadow. What you're saying is there

1:30:03

wasn't anything casting the shadow.

1:30:06

Nothing, nothing. It just came from,

1:30:08

I can see where the feet

1:30:10

were supposed to or whatever I guess the bottom

1:30:12

of it were supposed to be.

1:30:14

I guess it would have been standing there but

1:30:16

even that is a little deceiving because with the shadow

1:30:18

going the wrong way I don't know. Right, when

1:30:21

you say the wrong way though it's the head is not

1:30:23

towards you, the feet are so

1:30:25

then the Sun is out of the wrong position

1:30:27

is what you're saying to cast that shadow. Yeah,

1:30:29

basically the back of the barn faced the West

1:30:32

and it was later in the evening it was probably 7 38 o'clock.

1:30:34

It was still summer, the Sun was setting

1:30:37

and I mean it went right toward

1:30:39

the white source. It went from feet on the ground to

1:30:41

head all the way toward the Sun like

1:30:43

from feet in the east to the head

1:30:45

in the west.

1:30:46

And your friend,

1:30:48

to be clear, he saw it too. He

1:30:50

saw it. Yeah, he didn't admit it right away.

1:30:52

Did he come over, was he trying to help you with the

1:30:54

ball or whatever or did you, because you froze

1:30:56

up, what drew him over to where you

1:30:59

were? I think he was just laughing at me because I was

1:31:01

laying in between the frame, the boards at the front.

1:31:03

And I think he just came over to watch me struggle to be honest

1:31:05

with you. Like he just, yeah, I mean

1:31:08

it's what friends do, right? Like he just scored a goal,

1:31:10

I mean I'm struggling, he's gonna come rub it in. And

1:31:13

he just happened to be there and he saw the shadow as

1:31:15

well and he didn't admit to me like I said right away

1:31:17

that he had seen it. But I knew something was up

1:31:19

because he ran, you know, and I didn't say

1:31:21

anything. I couldn't, I just, I

1:31:24

just froze. I mean, I absolutely

1:31:26

froze when I saw it. And I, the first move that

1:31:29

I made was to try to stand up and I hit my head

1:31:31

on the board above me.

1:31:32

And I tripped, I think it felt like a cartoon. I

1:31:34

mean, you watch people in horror movies run away from like

1:31:36

the killer and you're like, what are you doing? Stay on

1:31:38

your run. And my face

1:31:41

was so much heavier than the rest of my body at that point. I

1:31:43

don't know what happened. Like I couldn't stand up. Last week

1:31:45

I watched a clip on TikTok or somewhere of

1:31:47

a sea lion rushing someone on the beach

1:31:50

and they tripped like five times and eventually

1:31:52

the sea lion caught them and attacked them. Which

1:31:54

was hilarious to watch. I'm sure it was scary

1:31:56

being the person. Alright, but here in the story

1:31:59

you also mentioned

1:31:59

some facts about the shape of the shadow.

1:32:02

Like what did it look like to you?

1:32:04

This is tough for me because it's

1:32:07

all

1:32:07

just, I'm guessing at it, you know, it was just, the

1:32:10

way it was bulky looked,

1:32:12

I feel weird even saying this, but it, I

1:32:15

mean, it looked like, you know, it was like

1:32:17

the shape of like either the shadow

1:32:19

of like the head of a lizard, like an iguana,

1:32:22

or I

1:32:23

mean, almost, I, sometimes

1:32:26

I hesitate to say this, but it almost

1:32:28

looked like a large Native American headdress, you

1:32:30

know, the way that it,

1:32:31

it was like, it was big, you know,

1:32:33

it was, it was significant. It was definitely,

1:32:35

the

1:32:36

head was every bit as wide as the shoulders.

1:32:39

That's why I think it looked like something

1:32:41

was there. And it almost felt like

1:32:43

as it walked, you could, maybe that was like some of the

1:32:45

undulating, like some of that was, you know, as

1:32:47

it hung down, it was moving or something.

1:32:50

I don't know, it's so, it was such

1:32:52

a creepy moment. It was kind of not, not

1:32:54

smooth. It was glitching around. Yeah.

1:32:57

And what came to my mind

1:32:59

in that moment is something

1:33:02

Scott and I have talked about, and this is one of the ideas

1:33:04

that are, has been going around with

1:33:07

specifically UAPs, and the

1:33:10

visibility slash invisibility

1:33:12

of them is something like a shadow

1:33:14

cast from a fourth dimension into our third.

1:33:17

And I think Scott can maybe, I don't know if

1:33:19

you can, don't want a picture on the spot, but can you talk

1:33:21

about that? Well, I took this away from, I think

1:33:24

it was Grush, who said this in the congressional

1:33:26

UAP test. It was a very short

1:33:29

sentence that he said, and it was like the first time

1:33:31

that I understood how something

1:33:34

might be represented from the fourth dimension

1:33:37

to the third. And it was about

1:33:39

that sort of the casting of light, and then how can something

1:33:41

defy physics? And the first example that flew into

1:33:43

my head is like when you're wearing a watch

1:33:46

with a crystal face, a shiny glass face, and

1:33:48

you go out to the restaurant with your friends

1:33:50

or your girlfriend or your wife or whatever, and you

1:33:52

notice the sun is catching it, and you can do crazy,

1:33:55

of course, you immediately put it right in their eyeball. Everybody

1:33:58

does this, right?

1:33:59

fly it around really fast and

1:34:02

near that reflection

1:34:03

is defying the laws of physics

1:34:05

because it has no physical mass,

1:34:06

it's just a reflection. And I felt

1:34:09

like sort of what Greys was saying was that that was

1:34:11

like what these projections are and that's why they

1:34:13

can seem to defy physics. Of course, we're getting a little

1:34:15

UFO-y here, but like because they

1:34:17

are reflections from the next

1:34:20

dimension that we don't understand and it's much

1:34:22

easier to manipulate them from outside of our dimension.

1:34:25

But the further step would be from a technological

1:34:28

standpoint is that there's an ability for

1:34:30

the reflection to be more than a reflection. It may

1:34:33

have some sort of physical form whether

1:34:35

it's organic or drone-like

1:34:37

or mechanical or whatever. So this idea

1:34:39

of like when you're seeing these things, maybe

1:34:42

they are shadows from the next

1:34:44

dimension. It sounds completely crazy, but it's just

1:34:46

like it's crazy as you feel when you say, well,

1:34:48

reptile, you

1:34:49

know, it's like, okay. My other

1:34:51

question for you though is, and I probably

1:34:53

would have been too freaked out to remember this if I were you,

1:34:55

but you didn't happen to notice any physical,

1:34:59

like any depressions in the ground where it was

1:35:01

or anything going on. It was more of a mist

1:35:03

type thing that wasn't really interacting with the environment

1:35:06

in any other way. Yeah, no, I don't

1:35:08

remember seeing like any grass move

1:35:10

under footsteps or anything like that. So it's

1:35:12

not like it's something physical that's cloaked

1:35:15

for example. No, I didn't get the impression. I really

1:35:18

didn't. I got the impression that

1:35:20

whatever it was was somehow

1:35:22

missing, but its shadow was there. It didn't feel

1:35:24

like it was there.

1:35:26

Well, I guess in a way it did because I ran from it. I don't

1:35:29

know. I think this was like the last thing I would run from

1:35:31

in my life. This was where I started to learn like

1:35:33

nothing's chasing me, stop running. Yeah,

1:35:36

it was terrifying. I mean, like you said, but yeah,

1:35:38

I don't remember seeing specifically it like physically

1:35:41

interacting with the environment, right? Other than the shadow. Right.

1:35:43

But when it came around the corner from the back

1:35:46

of the barn, was it headed towards you or was

1:35:48

it just doing its own thing? I don't know. Okay. At

1:35:50

that point, it could have just been taking a walk. Maybe

1:35:52

that had been it's like we were just building a house there and it's like,

1:35:54

oh, there are people here. This is usually

1:35:56

the time where I'm okay. I have no idea.

1:35:58

I don't know. Maybe it was just doing its own thing. Maybe it was completely

1:36:00

innocuous, you know.

1:36:01

Have you ever read the scary green pants with no

1:36:04

one inside them by Dr. Seuss? No.

1:36:06

Oh, I grew up with that book. It scared me to death when I was

1:36:08

a kid. Glowed in the dark too, by the way. Pick

1:36:11

that up later. Let's keep going. Just

1:36:13

to wrap up this, uh, weird

1:36:16

anecdote in a bow. Your

1:36:18

friend beats you to the back door of

1:36:20

the garage because he said the house was

1:36:22

locked and he won't let you inside.

1:36:25

And that's kind of funny, but not in the moment.

1:36:28

Listen, I can understand this as a, uh, as a kid

1:36:30

too.

1:36:31

There's something banging on the door. Let me

1:36:33

in. You don't know if it's you or this thing.

1:36:36

I wouldn't have let me in. I completely understand.

1:36:38

I

1:36:39

listen, self preservation is an instinct that

1:36:41

I possess. I understand. Like I get it. Right.

1:36:44

Lately understand. I get it. That you, you

1:36:46

don't have to be, you know,

1:36:47