0:00

This is The Guardian. I'm

0:08

Noor Haydar coming to you from Gadigal land,

0:11

and this is the full story. When

0:16

Labour Senator Fatima Paimon was elected

0:18

to the federal parliament, she

0:20

expressed excitement to represent the views

0:22

of modern Australia. The

0:25

election of the Alganese Labour government

0:27

has seen such an incredible shift

0:29

in the diversity of candidates that

0:31

were elected in this amazing 47th

0:33

parliament. And

0:37

it feels very unreal to be here. Over

0:40

the last nine months, the Afghan-born

0:42

hijab-wearing senator has become

0:44

increasingly vocal about the

0:46

plight of the Palestinian people. My

0:49

conscience has been uneasy for far too

0:51

long, and

0:54

I must call this out for what it is. This

0:58

is a genocide. And

1:01

last week, her name filled national

1:03

headlines when she broke ranks

1:05

with her party and voted in support

1:07

of a Greens motion to

1:09

recognise a state of Palestine. I

1:12

was not elected as a token

1:14

representative of diversity. I

1:16

was elected to serve the people of Western Australia.

1:20

Today, Fatima Paimon and the

1:22

cost of voting with your conscience.

1:25

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next device. Hi there, Karen.

2:40

Hi, Nour. Karen

2:44

Middleton is Guardian Australia's political

2:46

editor. Can you

2:49

take us back to the moment when

2:51

Senator Fatima Paimon crossed the floor last

2:53

week to support the Greens motion? How

2:56

did that play out? She

2:58

went into the chamber and she sat for

3:01

the preliminary votes in the advisers box.

3:03

I remind senators, there are

3:05

other opportunities for you to

3:07

put your position, not now.

3:11

And the votes that were being had when

3:13

she was doing that were attempts by the

3:15

government, led by Senator Penny

3:17

Wong, to amend that Greens motion, to

3:19

add some words to it, to make it

3:21

easier basically for the rest of the Labor

3:24

Party to vote for it. Let's move the

3:26

amendment as circulated in the chamber. The

3:29

Australian government is working with the international

3:31

community to create momentum for a lasting

3:33

peace in the form of a two-state

3:36

solution. A Palestinian state along... They didn't

3:38

want to support a Greens motion that called

3:40

just for a Palestinian state on its own.

3:43

They wanted to add the words as part of

3:45

a two-state solution and talk about a peace process.

3:48

And because that was rejected, the Greens

3:50

motion went forward on its own. So the

3:52

question is that the urgency motion is moved

3:55

by Senator Frookie. Be agreed to. The

3:57

ayes shall move to the right of the chair, the noes to the

3:59

left. being told from

4:01

the government side now is that she

4:03

led the government to believe via the

4:07

whip that she was not going to

4:09

vote for the Greens motion and there's

4:11

also a suggestion unconfirmed

4:13

from her side that she

4:15

may have let her staff believe that she wasn't going

4:17

to vote for it. Now that isn't clear to me

4:20

and I have to emphasise that it's not confirmed. There

4:22

being 13 ayes and 52 nos, matter

4:24

is resolved in the negative. That

4:26

concludes matters of public urgency. I'll wait for

4:29

a change in the chair. So there was

4:31

a lot of confusion but in the end

4:33

she did cross the floor and

4:35

that is seen within the Labor Party

4:37

at least as a major sin and

4:39

a breach of what is supposed to

4:42

be the collective position on various issues.

4:45

Why is crossing the floor such a big deal

4:47

in the Labor Party? Well I guess they're a

4:49

party that believes in collective action. That is sort

4:51

of at the heart of the

4:54

Labor Party's ethos. If you look at Labor versus

4:56

the Liberal Party for example, the

4:58

Liberal Party has always championed the

5:00

rights of the individual and Labor

5:02

in the basic

5:04

comparison anyway has been about

5:06

binding together to act

5:09

together to achieve change. So the

5:11

union movement has

5:13

that sort of idea and Labor politics

5:15

has that idea and they've had a

5:17

130 year old tradition that

5:19

you don't cross the floor,

5:22

that you abide by the party's agreed

5:24

position, the parliamentary party when you're talking

5:26

about the Labor caucus. Now there have

5:28

been examples where people have crossed the

5:30

floor to various versions of

5:32

punishment. There's no strict rule

5:35

on how it goes but everyone in the

5:37

Labor Party knows that it's possible you can

5:39

be expelled for something like that depending on

5:41

the circumstances. Senator

5:43

Payman held a press conference and

5:45

spoke about why she felt compelled

5:48

to take that step. What

5:50

did she say motivated her to cross

5:52

the floor? Primarily I

5:54

think her motivation is concerned about what's going

5:56

on in Gaza and the number of deaths

5:59

and the ongoing. war. I'm reminded that

6:01

the great Bob Hawke once said in

6:03

his op-ed in 2017 that it is

6:05

the least we

6:07

can do now in these most

6:09

challenging of times. And she's of

6:12

course very frustrated by that not

6:15

being brought to an end and by

6:17

what she sees as inadequate advocacy

6:20

at the parliamentary level. I ponder

6:22

how the party icons

6:24

like him, like Gough Whitlam,

6:26

like Paul Keating can

6:28

justify its current position. So that

6:31

is the first point. But after

6:33

that she said she felt she

6:35

was representing the views of the

6:37

wider Labor Party, not necessarily the

6:39

views of the Labor Caucus. I

6:41

was not elected as a token

6:43

representative of diversity. I

6:45

was elected to serve the people of Western Australia

6:49

and uphold the values instilled in me

6:51

by my late father. Today I have

6:53

made a decision that would make him

6:55

proud and make everyone proud who

6:57

are on the side of humanity. So

7:00

she felt that she was empowered to

7:02

act by the sentiments of

7:04

people outside the parliamentary Labor Party.

7:06

Now that has its own implications.

7:09

The suggestion there is I

7:11

guess that neither her caucus

7:13

colleagues nor the Prime Minister were representing

7:15

those views properly and she felt she

7:17

had to. But that was her basic

7:19

explanation for her actions. And

7:22

initially last week senior Labor members

7:24

said she wouldn't be reprimanded but

7:26

then that changed this week when

7:28

she gave an interview. Can you

7:31

take us through what she said in that

7:33

interview and why it angered the Prime Minister?

7:36

It was a bit confusing at the start.

7:38

She was actually reprimanded initially. First up we

7:40

had Deputy Prime Minister Richard

7:42

Miles suggesting just after she crossed

7:44

the floor that perhaps she

7:47

wouldn't be punished or penalised. That maybe this

7:49

was a special case. That the level of

7:51

sensitivity around this issue, issues around

7:53

social cohesion may mean that there

7:56

wasn't the case for penalty that there might be if

7:58

it was a different kind of issue. issue. But

8:00

then the Prime Minister did suspend her

8:03

from the caucus for the remainder of

8:05

this current parliamentary session. Now, in reality,

8:07

that meant just this week because there

8:09

was one week left to go, one

8:11

more caucus meeting. The parliamentary Labor Party

8:14

meets on a Tuesday. That

8:16

meeting will occur this week and she was

8:18

suspended from that meeting. But it was

8:20

just the one week, Sin Bin, if

8:22

you like. Then, as you

8:24

say, fast forward to Sunday of this

8:27

week. Senator Paiman, thanks for joining us. She

8:31

gave an interview to the ABC Insiders

8:33

program where she was completely

8:35

unrepentant. If the same motion on recognising

8:37

the state of Palestine was to be

8:39

brought forward, tomorrow I would cross the

8:42

floor. You would cross the floor again. Fascinatingly,

8:44

Richard Marles was on just before her.

8:46

We are all members of a team.

8:49

It was a separate interview in which he issued

8:51

a none too subtle warning that the

8:53

caucus took a very dim view of

8:55

people who persisted in the stepping out

8:58

of line. I cannot

9:00

over emphasise enough how

9:02

important all of us who are members

9:04

of the team regard the obligations of

9:07

being a member of the team in

9:09

terms of the way in which we behave. When

9:13

many, many other people who felt very

9:15

deeply on a range of issues, including

9:17

this one and others, like marriage equality,

9:19

had advocated within the party and not

9:21

done what she had done. So there

9:24

was strong sentiment he expressed that. Then

9:26

she went on television on the same

9:28

program immediately after and said, I

9:30

would do it again. And if there's a vote this week,

9:32

I will do it again. And that was

9:34

very much seen by the Labor leadership.

9:37

And I think probably by a lot

9:39

of her colleagues as really rubbing their

9:41

noses in it. We're talking about 40,000

9:43

Palestinians being massacred here. These Palestinians

9:45

do not have 10 years. And

9:48

so that's why I will use what

9:50

is within my power as a backbend

9:52

senator to continue advocating for a just

9:54

and lasting solution. They felt they had

9:56

been lenient and there was sort of

9:58

a little bit of a. political price

10:00

the Prime Minister paid for

10:02

the relative leniency of that

10:05

first penalty, because many

10:07

people said, well, you know, she got off quite

10:09

lightly, other people haven't, there was

10:11

a question about fairness. And

10:13

then, you know, this happens. And

10:15

so they had a meeting, the

10:17

Senate leadership plus the Prime Minister

10:20

and Richard Miles on the Sunday,

10:22

and Fatima Paiman was

10:24

called to the lodge for

10:26

what was, I gather, quite a brief

10:28

meeting by the time they actually sat

10:30

down together with the Prime Minister and

10:33

she was indefinitely suspended. And

10:35

while that is officially temporary, the import

10:37

of that is that if she doesn't

10:40

agree to toe the line and do

10:42

what her colleagues ask, she won't be

10:44

coming back. And in the end, I

10:46

think the expectation from the Labor leadership

10:49

is that given what she has indicated,

10:51

and the way she had responded

10:53

in that interview, she doesn't seem inclined

10:56

to do that. And therefore, this

10:58

is effectively a permanent suspension. And

11:01

she's in a limbo of sorts. And

11:03

I think what they're saying is she will have to be

11:05

the one that finishes that somehow,

11:07

either by making that concession and returning

11:09

to the fold or by

11:12

resigning from the party and sitting as

11:14

an independent. Karen,

11:16

Fatima Paiman released a statement late yesterday.

11:18

What did she have to say? Well,

11:21

she's basically accusing her colleagues of

11:23

trying to intimidate her into resigning

11:25

from the Senate. She says she's

11:27

been exiled. She's been

11:30

told to avoid all duties

11:32

in the Senate, not attend voting

11:34

divisions or motions or matters of

11:36

public interest. She said

11:38

she's lost contact with all of her

11:40

caucus colleagues and can't attend caucus

11:43

meetings but also the committee meetings,

11:45

internal group chats. So

11:47

they basically are ostracising her as

11:50

a government senator. So she's still sitting with

11:52

them in the chamber, but in

11:54

effect, she's been cast out. And

11:57

she says that she'll abstain from voting on

11:59

Senate matters. for the rest of this week, unless

12:02

there's a matter of conscience, then

12:04

she'll uphold, quote, the true

12:06

values and principles of the Labor Party,

12:08

unquote. So again, she's emphasizing that she

12:11

believes she's representing the wider Labor Party,

12:13

if not the members of

12:15

the caucus. She also says that she's going

12:17

to use this time to reflect on her

12:19

future and how best to represent the people

12:22

of Western Australia. It's not clear what that

12:24

means, but it doesn't sound like

12:26

it means she's going to resign. Clearly

12:28

from the Labor side, they would prefer that

12:31

she left the Senate altogether if she isn't

12:33

going to come back to them and

12:35

hand back the seat. But if

12:38

she isn't going to do that, then they're going

12:40

to cut her off from all communications and make

12:42

it clear that she's no longer a part of

12:44

their caucus. So there's been a

12:46

lot of speculation. Will she quit

12:49

the Labor Party and join the Greens? Will she

12:51

quit the Labor Party and go onto the crossbench?

12:53

She's got four years left of her term, so

12:56

she will be in the Senate

12:58

for quite a while longer. Or

13:00

will she seek to reconcile with

13:02

her Labor colleagues? But there is

13:04

a fundamental difference between the Labor

13:06

leadership and her, because she's saying,

13:09

as we noted before, that she

13:11

represents the wider party. But the

13:13

implication there is a criticism of

13:15

the parliamentary party and its leadership.

13:18

The implication is that they don't. And

13:20

that's a serious accusation to make against

13:22

the people leading the party that you

13:24

say you're within. And it's

13:26

very hard to reconcile. So without

13:29

any shift in that position, I think

13:32

she remains in this

13:34

sort of limbo situation

13:37

until she decides to quit

13:40

the party. We'll

13:46

be right back. Karen,

13:56

Australian Muslim community groups have

13:59

praised Senator Payman for her,

14:01

what they describe as a courageous

14:03

stance, could Labor have

14:05

avoided this clash by taking firmer

14:07

steps over the last nine months

14:10

to address some of the simmering

14:12

concerns and disaffections that have been

14:14

voiced by Senator Payman and the

14:17

broader community? Well, it's an interesting

14:19

question. I know some

14:21

in the government are saying they're

14:23

still not clear exactly what Senator

14:26

Payman wants them to do, that they're

14:28

not doing now. She obviously wants recognition

14:30

of a Palestinian state and we know

14:32

that, and they have that in their

14:35

policy, although as we just discussed, they

14:37

were trying to implement that in the

14:39

motion wording in a different way. Whether

14:42

she wants something more specific from the

14:44

government, more specific action isn't clear. Certainly

14:46

we've heard from others in this debate,

14:48

like from the Greens, they have particular

14:51

demands. They want the ambassador

14:53

from Israel to be expelled. They

14:55

want sanctions against Israel. They want more

14:58

specific things. He has not actively

15:00

endorsed those demands. But

15:03

there have been criticisms that perhaps the government

15:05

at the executive level, maybe the foreign minister

15:07

and the prime minister were slow

15:10

to speak out definitively

15:12

against the actions in Gaza, that

15:14

their language was careful. We did

15:16

hear Penny Wong say initially calling

15:18

for Israel to show restraint. Well,

15:20

that actually was controversial because in

15:22

the diplomatic world, that is a

15:24

loud voice and

15:28

certainly supporters of Israel didn't

15:30

like that language because they felt that it

15:32

implied that Israel had no right to defend

15:34

itself. Those speaking out

15:36

on behalf of the government were treading carefully

15:38

and there has been a criticism from advocates

15:41

for the Palestinian people that they were not

15:44

more forceful early on. Now

15:46

that's going to be a debate that goes on and

15:48

people will have different views, but this is certainly a

15:50

live issue. What should the government

15:53

and could the government do both rhetorically,

15:55

symbolically and practically

15:58

given we are a long way from the middle of the world? and

16:00

relatively speaking, we're a small

16:02

player to bring about change.

16:05

And what can it do that would

16:07

be productive and not counterproductive? And that's

16:09

also part of the argument. Karen,

16:12

could this prompt Labor to

16:14

change its rules to better accommodate

16:16

a range of diverse views within

16:18

the party? Well, there'll certainly

16:20

be pressure, I think, from those who

16:22

think that Fatima Paimon has been poorly

16:25

treated and shouldn't have been punished for

16:27

what she did to change the

16:29

rules or to make the exception. But on the whole, that

16:31

rule has been there for more than 100 years, and

16:33

I suspect it's going to be pretty hard to

16:35

shift it. I know within the government,

16:38

part of the pressure, you know, in the wake

16:40

of her decision last week and in the leader

16:43

was the precedent that this sets because

16:45

of that central ethos about

16:47

acting together in the Labor

16:49

Party, that this rule,

16:51

and it certainly it gets criticized a lot.

16:53

The opposition loves to criticize it because they

16:56

allow the coalition, they allow people to cross

16:58

the floor without that kind of penalty, but

17:00

they have a different ethos. And this

17:03

idea of caucus solidarity is really central

17:05

to the thing about acting together to make

17:07

change. And so if they remove that, they believe,

17:10

I think, that it starts to erode that

17:12

and that they then no longer become

17:14

the collective acting party that was founded

17:17

and has survived. So I

17:20

reckon those who advocate for

17:22

change, if they do, will

17:24

probably struggle. But certainly it

17:26

has given rise to that conversation again. Yeah.

17:30

Karen, this is the last sitting week before

17:32

the long winter break. What could

17:35

happen this week? There are a few other things

17:37

that could happen this week. We may see another

17:39

Greens motion. They obviously would

17:42

be tempted to put a motion forward again,

17:44

given that Fatima Paimon had said she would

17:46

vote for it again. The

17:48

sum of the sting comes out of that

17:50

politically now that she's been suspended from labor,

17:53

but they may still proceed and they've yet

17:55

to make that decision. And

17:57

Tuesday morning is when the Labor caucus meets now.

18:00

I expect that these conversations

18:02

will be much more muted than they

18:04

may have been as a result of

18:07

the actions that the Prime Minister

18:09

took over the weekend against Senator

18:11

Payman. Had he not done that,

18:13

there may well have been more

18:16

of a vocal expression of criticism

18:19

and maybe some defence of her, but it

18:21

may well be now that people have got

18:23

the message from the leadership that they want

18:25

to move past this immediate drama

18:27

and talk about other things. And

18:30

so I wouldn't be surprised if we see

18:32

that it goes a little bit quiet inside

18:34

the caucus now anyway. And

18:38

Karen, what about the political consequences

18:40

for labour in some of its

18:43

seats in Western Sydney, in parts of

18:45

Melbourne where there is a strong Muslim

18:47

and Arab vote? Well, that's going to

18:50

be a live question heading to the

18:52

federal election. How various

18:54

communities view this, the

18:57

way this issue has played out, the way Senator

18:59

Payman has spoken out, whether they

19:01

view her as representing them and speaking

19:03

out on their behalf, whether

19:05

they view her as not behaving

19:08

in the way that she should if

19:10

they're Labor members or diehard Labor voters.

19:12

It's hard to tell, but certainly I'm

19:14

sure among Muslim communities there may be

19:17

strong views, particularly strong views about this.

19:19

And in electorates where they have influenced

19:21

by weight of numbers, it will

19:24

be very interesting to see whether this makes

19:26

any kind of difference. Sometimes it's hard to

19:28

tell the reason that people vote

19:30

the way they do. We can jump to conclusions and

19:33

think, oh, it must be this, this or this. So

19:35

that'll be difficult. But obviously, if there's some

19:37

kind of distinctive backlash

19:39

against the government in seats where

19:41

there are large communities with some

19:44

electoral influence, then it will be

19:46

hard to not draw a conclusion that there'd been

19:48

some kind of penalty for Labor

19:50

for that. So we'll see. It may not

19:52

happen, but it will be one

19:55

of the things we look for when we get to the

19:57

election. Karen, we may be speaking

19:59

to you. you later again this week.

20:01

Should there be any major developments? Thank

20:03

you. Thanks, Noah. That

20:10

was Guardian Australia's political editor,

20:12

Karen Middleton. You can

20:14

find more of her work on theguardian.com

20:16

and you can also listen to

20:19

Karen interview key political players on

20:21

The Guardian's Australian politics podcast out

20:24

every Saturday. That's it for today.

20:26

This episode was produced by

20:28

Miles Herbert, additional production by

20:30

Krishna Luthraia, sound design and

20:32

mixing by Camilla Hannon. The

20:35

executive producer of Full Story is

20:37

Hannah Parks. If you like this episode,

20:39

don't forget to subscribe or follow

20:42

Full Story wherever you listen to

20:44

your podcasts. You can also leave

20:46

a review. I'm Noor Haydott.

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