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0:02

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2:38

This is a true crime podcast as the title

2:40

suggests. So please consider this your

2:42

warning that it's not suitable for children and

2:44

it probably will contain content that may be

2:47

triggering to some people. Also

2:49

it's an Australian true crime podcast. So

2:51

Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners

2:53

should be aware it may contain the

2:56

voices of deceased people. The

3:03

producers of this podcast recognize

3:05

the traditional owners of the land

3:07

on which it's recorded. They

3:11

pay respect to the Aboriginal

3:14

elders past, present and those

3:16

emerging. It

3:21

was last night just after six that the man

3:23

and woman were found in their lounge room by

3:25

their son. He says the killing points to a

3:27

direct link between the spate of gangland

3:29

murders and police corruption. The

3:38

very first episode of Australian True Crime

3:40

which was published in March 2017 featured former

3:44

homicide detective Charlie Bazzina. Charlie's

3:47

back today and of course he's appearing live on

3:49

stage with me in Melbourne on January To

3:52

celebrate our long friendship we're offering mates

3:54

rates. You can get 15% off

3:57

your tickets by using the code word charlie when

3:59

purchasing a new tickets for our live

4:01

show in Melbourne. This offer is

4:03

for a limited time only, so get in

4:05

quick. He'll be taking

4:07

us through some of his most memorable

4:09

homicide investigations and then you can ask him

4:12

your burning questions in the Q&A. There's a link

4:14

in the show notes to help you grab your

4:16

Mates Rates tickets. In

4:19

this episode of Australian True Crime, Charlie

4:21

talks about his connection to

4:23

Nicola Gobbo, also known as

4:25

Informer 3838. Gobbo was

4:28

a high-profile lawyer with many

4:30

equally high-profile underworld clients, including

4:32

most notably Tony Mockbell.

4:35

But she was also a police

4:37

informant, sharing information about her clients

4:39

and their associates with members of

4:42

Victoria Police. The situation eventually

4:44

led to a Royal Commission into the management

4:46

of police informants in 2020. Although

4:48

the Commissioner's final report didn't call

4:51

for charges to be laid against

4:53

anyone, former Victorian Police Commissioner

4:55

Simon Overland was singled out

4:57

for some harsh words. He

5:00

remains accused of choosing not to

5:02

obtain legal advice about using Gobbo

5:04

as an informant because, in the Commissioner's

5:06

words, he feared it would limit the

5:09

information he could obtain from her. In

5:11

other words, the Commissioner believed he

5:13

didn't ask because he knew he wouldn't

5:15

like the answer. Had Overland

5:17

asked for legal advice, he might

5:19

have been told something similar to the statement

5:21

issued by the High Court of Victoria after

5:24

the Royal Commission. That

5:26

statement said the prosecution of criminals on

5:29

whom Gobbo had informed was corrupt in

5:31

a manner that debased the fundamental premise of

5:34

the criminal justice system. Two

5:36

convictions were quashed immediately, leading to

5:38

the release from prison of one

5:40

man, formerly convicted of murder, and

5:42

another of high-level drug trafficking. The

5:45

High Court estimated that what it

5:47

called the corruption between Gobbo and

5:50

Victoria Police had impacted over a

5:52

thousand cases, and those

5:54

convicted had been subject to unfair

5:56

trials and a great miscarriage of

5:58

justice. It's highly despicable. Butett

6:00

who in Victoria Police knew that Gobbo

6:02

was an informant and actively worked with

6:04

her. But one thing we know for

6:06

sure is that the men heading

6:09

up the homicide squad, those investigating the

6:11

gangland murders and working hard on getting

6:13

convictions had no idea. One

6:15

of those men was Charlie Bazzina, who

6:18

happened to be on call on the night

6:20

of May 16th 2004 when Terrence

6:22

Hodson and his wife Christine were

6:24

found executed in their home in

6:27

the quiet Melbourne suburb of Kew. It

6:30

was no secret that Terrence Hodson had made

6:32

a long and successful career out of drug

6:34

dealing and his son Andrew had

6:36

followed him into the business. It

6:38

was no secret that Terrence Hodson had

6:40

been recently charged in an attempted robbery

6:43

in which his co-accused was a member

6:45

of the drug squad David Meeschel. In

6:48

Terrence telling another drug squad member

6:50

Paul Dale had been involved too

6:53

and Terrence was telling because he

6:56

was also a registered informant. But

6:59

there were many secrets involved in this case,

7:01

secrets kept from Detective Senior Sergeant Charlie

7:04

Bazzina as he tried to do his

7:06

job and find the murderer. It

7:09

would be years before Charlie found out when the

7:11

rest of us did why he

7:13

felt like he had one hand tied behind

7:16

his back during that investigation. It's

7:18

an extraordinary tangent in an incredible story

7:20

that many of us missed in 2020

7:22

as we tried

7:24

to navigate COVID restrictions and lockdowns.

7:27

So Charlie joins us today to talk about the

7:29

case that changed the course of his life and

7:32

his career, the Hodson murders.

7:36

Ultimately, look, when you start the investigations, you

7:38

then go backwards to go forward. You learn

7:41

as much as you can about the victims

7:43

and learning about Terrence and

7:47

never having met him but I

7:49

gathered he was a very likable

7:52

fellow, likable rove,

7:55

and Christie was the wife, he was a

7:57

family man, devoted to the family. to

8:00

his children and grandchildren.

8:03

But as an aside, he

8:05

was trafficking in drugs. And

8:08

Worthy didn't fit the norm of

8:10

these shady backstreet drug

8:13

dealers that you would find in the movies, but

8:15

he's a family man and found

8:18

he's the level in crime of trafficking

8:20

in drugs and having the

8:22

misfortune to be involved with the Miessel

8:25

and Dale. Yeah, the kids certainly

8:27

talk about their childhood as being really

8:30

suburban, their mum

8:32

being a real sort of stay-home

8:34

mum, you know, really devoted to them.

8:37

Ordinary. Yeah. I think even in

8:39

a neighbourhood, they'd never pick them. They lived

8:41

quite happily in a neighbourhood and you wouldn't

8:43

even have a clue because that's how our

8:45

Garringham family, Terry sort of came

8:47

across as a picture of our big known

8:49

of him and Christine also, that they were

8:51

just a devoted couple, devoted

8:53

family couple and fit

8:55

in quite happily in the cute neighbourhood. Yeah,

8:58

which is a beautiful neighbourhood in Melbourne. So

9:00

what their neighbours didn't know about Terry because

9:02

he was very good at hiding this part of

9:04

his life. I mean, he had spent his life

9:07

in criminal activity, right? He was in

9:09

Bawstel homes as a teenager and back

9:11

in England. In Australia, he'd done a

9:13

run at a purse at one stage and the family

9:15

lived in Perth for quite a while while there were warrants out

9:17

for him in Melbourne because you could do

9:19

that in those days. So he had

9:22

a chequered history. He and

9:24

his son, Andrew got done for, they got

9:26

pinched for drug dealing at one point, didn't

9:28

they? For dealing in nightclubs in Melbourne? Yeah,

9:30

I know there was some history in regards

9:32

to that and Andrew was

9:34

the more, I suppose, stereotype

9:36

of being a criminal that he would

9:39

expect as opposed to his father, Terry.

9:41

And Andrew was also friends with Tony

9:43

Mockbell, right? They met during a prison

9:45

stretch and he became quite friendly with

9:48

Mockbell. And that was a

9:50

big issue because Andrew was the

9:52

old style crook that you don't talk to

9:54

the coppers and you don't give anybody

9:56

Arabic, chequered, etc. And here he is with his

9:58

young father. So... That was a

10:00

great shock when you learned about that. Well,

10:03

when did he learn about that? Because I thought the story was

10:05

that when they got done, some

10:07

members of the drug squad, maybe

10:09

David Meeschel, made a deal

10:11

with Terry to become an informant that

10:14

was supposed to assist Andrew's case.

10:16

Is that true? Yep. And

10:18

that is 101 drug squad

10:21

policing, where you play one off the other

10:23

and that's all the stuff where you give

10:25

someone a phaedra and that's not

10:27

corrupt. That's just normal policing

10:29

when you're dealing with drug traffickers as

10:31

a son. So you give

10:33

them something and they give you something in return. Yeah.

10:35

And Terry was so well connected. So he was, you

10:38

know, we can understand why it was a target for

10:40

the drug squad to become an informer. Oh, very much

10:42

so. It's that size because

10:44

he's certainly not a street level. He's

10:46

above that. So his son,

10:48

certainly initially for a while, had no idea

10:50

that his dad had become an informant,

10:52

right? Correct. Correct. Because it

10:54

did put him in a very sticky situation. And

10:57

then, oh my gosh, we

10:59

have to get to disgrace former drug squad

11:01

detective Paul Dale. That's his

11:03

full title. Yeah. Who was David Meeschel's

11:05

partner? Was that right? Yeah, correct. So

11:07

and that's where you're doing like

11:09

in this module, we're going to team of detectives here,

11:12

you add Paul Dale, Meeschel

11:15

and possibly two others, two or three others

11:17

that were the team under Paul Dale's direction.

11:20

So that's how it basically works. And then in

11:23

that process, they've come across Terry

11:25

and then the dynamics

11:28

of drug investigation from undercover work

11:31

to cultivating informers and drug

11:33

squad in

11:35

particular is absolute mecca

11:38

for really often cultivating

11:40

as many informers, least informers as

11:42

you can, because when

11:45

I was working undercover, you get introduced at

11:47

a lower level and then you

11:49

go up the chain as you make larger

11:51

purchases to get to the main guy and

11:53

start dealing with the main guy. And this

11:55

is where Terry was then

11:57

to become very personal and. intimate

12:00

relationships then built which is a big no-no.

12:02

So the lines were certainly blurred.

12:05

Daddy Misha was having an intimate

12:07

relationship with Terry Lottson's daughter Mandy.

12:10

So that was going along like slightly in

12:12

the background leading up to it. So

12:14

that's another big no-no of getting personally

12:17

involved with these type of criminals. Yeah,

12:19

well very closely involved and again because

12:21

they were such a family-oriented family, he

12:23

was at family do's a lot. I mean he

12:25

was their boyfriend. The

12:28

family is so fascinating to me because there's another

12:30

sister, Nicola, who married

12:32

a man whom I won't name but she met

12:34

when her dad introduced her when they were both

12:36

in jail together and her dad thought, I reckon

12:38

you'd be a great match for my daughter, Nicola.

12:42

And he's a pretty heavy dude or he's certainly been accused

12:44

of some pretty heavy crimes this bloke. Absolutely

12:47

very hardened criminal and was actually

12:50

involved in a shooting of police officers.

12:52

So you know, not two lines of

12:54

badging but obviously Terry saw something in him

12:56

that might be a good match for his

12:59

daughter. So how extraordinary the family get

13:01

togethers, you know. We've got this bloke and

13:03

we've got Dave Misha serving as a member

13:05

of the drug squad. Yeah, we must have but

13:07

I think that Misha would have been a nice

13:09

and sexy cast because to have

13:11

a corrupt police officer as clearly Dave

13:13

Misha was, Misha

13:15

kept it honestly. Still no idea about

13:17

what's going on but did he really

13:20

care? Possibly not because he was just

13:22

having a relationship with Mandy and saw

13:25

an opportunity to turn some dollars his way

13:27

and he paid for it

13:29

quite dearly with the 10 or 12 years in general.

13:32

There was this drug case at

13:35

Oakley and as a

13:37

result of that, our plan was

13:39

then hatched by Misha and Terry

13:41

at the very least and

13:43

they'd be included, called Darl involved in that but

13:45

nothing was ever prudent. So based upon

13:48

that, there was a lot of false stance in

13:50

relation to the burger they knew and ironically,

13:53

here we have what we call

13:56

a drug safety, where money's

13:58

drugs are still working. and

14:00

you might have a stooge of such babysitting

14:03

or house sitting the house that

14:05

that can be burnt to the police and hopefully not

14:07

give you senior people up. So

14:09

you've got the drunk squad tithing this house

14:11

in the tin, tithing that house, this Paul

14:13

Dale thing. So they've got the video

14:16

surveillance to see the comings and goings.

14:19

So they thought they were on pretty safe ground to

14:21

be able to see it. You know what, who's

14:23

going to miss them, who's going to report it, let's

14:25

do a burglary on this house, we're going to get

14:27

cash and drugs written. Terry you can on sell the

14:29

drugs but there was

14:32

a couple of false starts and what they

14:34

allege is that Paul Dale was part of

14:36

these earlier starts until ultimately

14:38

on being finalised

14:41

the decision was made. Paul had

14:44

another engagement but Michel and Terry

14:46

went ahead, the police are notified,

14:48

they get there quite quickly and then

14:50

the bags being thrown over the back with the drugs and

14:52

money and Terry

14:54

is then scarpered to a spew yard is

14:56

where they actually met in the first place

14:58

and he was then apprehended later. Again

15:01

no water amongst leaves. Terry had no

15:03

one protect oneself because we knew in

15:05

a corner so he then said, okay

15:08

this I'll tell you all about it

15:10

as time went on and implicated Dave

15:12

Michel and Paul Dale and Paul Dale

15:15

to this very day continues to make

15:17

denials of being involved in that particular

15:19

scheme that he says Michel was involved.

15:22

So Michel ends up doing 10 or

15:24

12 years and

15:26

then because realistically so

15:28

in comes the internal investigations department.

15:32

So they take over when they find

15:34

a Terry's admissions of Michel and they'll

15:36

be allegedly involved in the

15:38

burglary of the premises, even

15:41

at that stage the other team members in

15:43

Paul Dale's room that were monitoring the house,

15:46

they were a little bit suspicious in themselves because on

15:48

the day of the burglary Dave Michel

15:50

said look I'll take care of it, you can

15:52

go and these just weren't right and

15:55

it's a pity that they didn't really escalate that

15:57

they had not much to go on and it's

15:59

difficult then to have your suspicions taken up to

16:01

a higher level in the police department. So I

16:03

think they'd be grudgingly said, okay, you know what

16:05

you're doing and the way they went. And

16:08

Paul Dale, you said earlier, he had another engagement that night.

16:10

He had a big party for the grand final,

16:12

didn't he, at his house. And I've

16:15

said to him as well that

16:17

that seems like an over alibi. You know,

16:19

sometimes when blokes will make sure

16:21

they're surrounded by a hundred people in a pub

16:23

and something happens. Well, that was exactly my

16:26

words. Yeah, well, you go. And

16:29

so when that robbery went bad, suddenly

16:31

I felt like Terry had no mates

16:33

left. He went from being sort of

16:35

everyone's friend. No one had any dramas

16:38

with Terry to suddenly they got

16:41

out that he was an informant, but he's

16:43

lost his police protection. He clearly

16:45

made himself a target when he's alleging

16:47

that Dave Mitchell was involved with that was

16:49

court written. It is no issues there, but

16:51

alleging Paul Dale was also part

16:53

and parcel to the whole conspiracy of the

16:55

burglary. You have concerns

16:57

for the witness and given the tentacles

17:00

that they would have had or had at the time

17:03

and Michelle and the only evidence

17:05

against Paul Dale was

17:08

the allegations by Terry. What's

17:10

because Dave Mitchell at

17:12

no point, if to this very day, it was

17:14

simply kind of poor dial in

17:16

any shape or form. The

17:19

offer was put to Terry to

17:21

go witness protection. And that

17:23

was one of the last things that

17:25

Terry wanted to do because he was

17:28

a qualified carpenter or builder that

17:30

he was quite confident that he should protect

17:33

himself in his own little place, which is

17:35

a it's a dual occupancy. It was a

17:37

house. He's particular small

17:39

house was behind a larger

17:41

house, the front of the streets

17:43

after will be on a driveway of

17:46

the primary house at the end

17:48

of that driveway was another small house or fun.

17:51

Blacktop style of two bedroom house. That's

17:53

where Terry and Christine lived.

17:56

So given that he

17:58

thought, well, you know, while way in, one

18:00

way out, jumping the back fence. I think he

18:02

felt confident enough to protect

18:05

himself and refuse it. And

18:07

then the stakes really changed

18:09

because we then

18:11

had a theft

18:13

of what we called in the investigation the

18:16

blue folder. This blue

18:18

folder contained all what we call

18:20

information reports. So during an

18:23

investigation, the people you

18:25

meet as the investigation progresses,

18:27

all documented on what we call

18:29

information reports. So Charlie Bazzina

18:31

met with Billy Bloggs and we did this, we

18:34

did that, was arranged that. So all the whole

18:36

running sheet, one of a bit of

18:38

work of information reports, were in this blue folder.

18:41

And inexplicably, this blue folder, days

18:44

after the Burberry had disappeared from

18:46

the drone squad officers and

18:48

clearly Paul Dale was a major suspect in

18:50

that. Because this is a document that sums

18:53

up Terry's informing career, isn't

18:55

it? In the blue folder, it was actually information

18:57

report 44. Right. And

19:00

that then became

19:03

circulated in the underworld. That's

19:05

when I believe Andrew

19:08

became aware of his father's police

19:10

informing. When that

19:12

report went out to the underworld, it's

19:14

been distributed and photocopied and seen around.

19:17

Terry became a major

19:20

target because hardened criminals,

19:23

Mock Bell level and

19:25

others didn't sound quite happy with the

19:27

fact that Terry was informing. And

19:30

at this stage, Andrew, Terry's son, had introduced

19:33

him to lawyer Nicola Gobbo, right? Yeah,

19:35

because she had appeared for Andrew in

19:37

the past. And obviously, as

19:39

a friend of Mock Bell's, you know, they ran

19:42

in the same sort of circle and he suggested

19:44

her to represent his dad in these theft charges.

19:47

She was also talking to Paul Dale.

19:49

Was she ever officially his lawyer or

19:51

is that his story is that she

19:53

was giving him legal advice because

19:55

they were seeing each other at that stage? Were they? Were

19:57

they having an affair or they were at that stage? So

20:01

he says that at the very least she was

20:03

giving both of them advice,

20:05

both he and Terrence. Yeah,

20:09

well that was a note by

20:11

me for a long, long, long time due

20:13

to my two year investigation because

20:16

ultimately looking at it and

20:19

in retrospect, I don't believe that she

20:21

appeared for Paul Dale officially as a

20:23

defense barrister whilst he had a relationship

20:25

with her, whilst he spoke

20:28

to her and was confident with her

20:30

in relation to getting advice. And

20:32

then the treachery of warrior and

22:00

they all marked appropriately for the offenders. Monday,

22:03

Tuesday, Wednesday, the rest of the week. And

22:05

the day this happened, that particular

22:08

type was missing. And that's what we

22:10

were confronted with. And then I'm

22:13

talking to Andrew. Now, Andrew

22:15

then has some relationship with

22:17

the tech issue on the SEGIA task force.

22:20

A SEGIA task force was

22:22

another corruption-busting task force that's

22:24

quite secret, apart

22:26

from internal investigations. So

22:28

this is what I was confronted with. Here am I

22:31

being the lead investigator for the Hudson couple

22:34

murders. Then I'm confronted on

22:36

the night by a

22:38

SEGIA investigator that's got a

22:40

relationship with Andrew. And

22:43

then the other end, I've got on the

22:45

other side, I've got the internal investigators who'd

22:48

been dealing with Terry and Christine leading

22:51

up to their murders. And

22:54

the catalyst to that evening was that I

22:57

wanted to take Andrew back to the police

23:00

station to start the interview. As you would,

23:02

people would find the police. They'd

23:04

become very important to investigation. And

23:07

then the things you then learn in hindsight

23:09

that Andrew refused to go back

23:11

with me, and I was going

23:13

to push the envelope. Then the SEGIA detective

23:15

had spoken to me and said, Andrew's okay,

23:17

or whatever he told me, I can't remember

23:19

what it was, but convinced me that Andrew

23:21

would then speak to us at some time

23:24

later. So I had to make

23:26

a decision to have an aggressive witness,

23:28

in particular the son of the deceased,

23:30

he's just found his two parents, and

23:33

get nothing from him. Or do I sit

23:35

back and say, you know what,

23:38

I want to be sitting down with Andrew because

23:40

he's going to be so important to my investigation,

23:42

and then allow him not to go back to the

23:45

police station with us. And

23:47

that's when I learned that Andrew

23:49

at the time had taken

23:51

possession of a 45 automatic

23:54

pistol that was belonging to Terry.

23:57

So that was in the rooms, and that was in the

23:59

front of his... they would track through pants. I

24:02

didn't know that at that stage, but I would

24:04

have probably known it had it all back to the police

24:06

station. Again, that's probably one of the reasons you'd want to

24:08

come back to the police station and

24:11

use the siege of the detective to convince me

24:13

otherwise. So on

24:15

that night, on that very important night, when

24:17

normally as lead of

24:19

a homicide investigation, you are

24:22

the boss. You find

24:24

yourself with at least two other, well, another

24:26

unit and a task force are

24:29

showing up there there and lots

24:31

of tension around who's got

24:34

priority. Pretty much so. Well, I had

24:36

priority, but I was at odds with internal

24:39

investigators and I never

24:41

trusted them because I think they were withholding

24:43

information. I certainly had very little

24:45

trust in the siege of task force detectives because

24:48

they were obviously keeping information to themselves and

24:50

only drip feeding me. And because of

24:52

all that, they've allowed the son of the victim who found

24:54

the victim to leave the premises with

24:56

a gun that he

24:58

had taken from the premises. Exactly.

25:02

So here are two other forces against me.

25:05

So from the very first day

25:08

I was behind the eight pool, then

25:10

you find out later that Nicola Gobbo,

25:13

having been involved with the Hodgson

25:15

family, with Andrew

25:17

and Terry, that she was

25:20

speaking to the police in the

25:22

police in the fall when it had been for some years, but

25:25

they continued on, but I was never ever

25:27

made privy to that, even at the time

25:29

I interviewed Nicola as time went

25:31

on. So I just processed the crime

25:33

scene, started the investigation

25:35

and that day, what

25:38

led me to Paul Darl was

25:40

that Andrew on the night

25:42

had told me that Paul Darl had threatened to

25:44

kill his father Terry. And

25:46

when you look at it, you stand back and look

25:48

at it and say, well, the early evidence against Paul

25:51

Darl was the statement of Terry

25:53

Otson, that implicate Paul Darl,

25:56

the fact that now Terry is deceased, the

25:59

Statement that he made, The you been to

26:01

investigation saw person's. Was. Worth

26:03

anything because. The

26:05

statement hadn't been tested in court. So.

26:08

They could lead that investigation. Southern,

26:10

the great benefactor. With. Terrorists

26:13

murder. Was. Clearly

26:15

poor diet. But you get movies

26:17

that and my inside all won't hold our

26:19

be haunted the ups the allegation. also even

26:21

though there was so many people by the

26:23

states you had mit to kill the hot

26:26

since also said like he'll terry you know

26:28

I think Christmas is to victim of adding

26:30

be net to actual damages. The.

26:32

House itself as you mentioned earlier was set

26:34

up to be of it was with Fort

26:37

Knox. I mean they had are a member

26:39

Maddie explaining to me to system that was

26:41

like I think by four Pm every day

26:43

her parents would pull down the role. Adore

26:46

the garage door that you had to Guy three

26:48

say. That they were levels to get into the house. Had

26:50

to go through the garage to get

26:52

to the front door to get inside

26:54

the house. so it definitely felt as

26:56

though they knew whoever was in the

26:58

house because not idea that was no

27:00

signs of for centuries. And also they had

27:02

to let that person through. The two levels of

27:05

security that they kept you know that and

27:07

let them through the garage and into the

27:09

front door. And that was in school. Know

27:11

supporter boy I am a German Shepherd dope.

27:13

That's right, yeah and out and

27:15

the alley other wise of beauty.

27:18

Bar. From club me over the roof. The

27:20

get into the back yard. We. Did

27:22

find. Some mom. Interruption.

27:25

To the best friends had been broken. And.

27:28

Again mode red herring week so dogs

27:30

overseer be offended goading will be friend

27:33

is. But. Then we'll find out that was

27:35

a a base be of a journalist the draw to get

27:37

out of the best thing to me. You.

27:39

Found in my mission. Still sorry. We.

27:41

we could never established and and the alley

27:43

to clues read jump to use. The.

27:46

Theory has will that someone in

27:48

the be trusted and thus. Which.

27:50

They got ill moines going his suit Will

27:52

was a full bob and a bit more

27:54

about busy with my decided against pulsar. He

27:56

was no the cool dialing. Was.

27:58

At a son up a book the be replaced

28:01

officer the other people to you. I

28:03

was at a particular criminality trusted was

28:05

of Andrew and that a mall and

28:07

just blow up the simulcrypt. Sort.

28:09

Of excess the trust cheery don't

28:12

allow access to let the me.

28:15

Affected Andrew. And.

28:17

Mandisa made it was in their seat.

28:19

Man it was the first Wonder Xp

28:21

Thorns appearance. Yeah. That we're going

28:23

over there for dinner. And

28:25

only uphold our since this was

28:27

my brother. I'm bringing out the

28:30

rubbish thing in. it may be

28:32

because I'm not a sits a

28:34

garage. Still stills was an item

28:37

which was unusual. Same. She's written

28:39

up said it's have you heard from I'm a

28:41

day or season now. The golf is Claudia. On

28:44

is being a danger to sit on.

28:46

His best tone come down when he

28:48

got the trees. Are linked to

28:50

rates of the handle. And

28:53

it unlocks to the So. This is. Way

28:56

that seat in a t They. Were. Scenes

29:01

and I saw. My

29:03

dad lying on the floor. With

29:05

these that is five seventy. Cents

29:08

Not just so the day with chicken

29:10

and pretending to they sleep on the

29:12

sloth. Though looked and in a

29:14

was my mum. Blowing.

29:16

Next to him. And

29:19

I saw my mom. Didn't

29:21

like on the slow pretending to

29:23

be asleep and so our eyes

29:25

and it up and on Notice

29:27

the blood. I wear my mom's

29:29

head. To

29:33

touch. See

29:37

was discovered as a block of ice.

29:41

Age was putting the rubbish, kids. So.

29:43

This will buy this businesspersons I hate. And

29:47

this is typical when someone is

29:49

involved and across both distance themselves

29:51

and so in this aspect. With

29:54

Andrew was away a theory had a prisoner of

29:56

sword so he thought well. or

29:59

madison just I think he told us that

30:01

he just took it out for safekeeping

30:03

or the fact that he didn't want his father

30:05

to be linked to having a pistol

30:07

there, whatever the case may be. But you know,

30:09

and I can be quite honest with you, we suspected

30:11

Andrew. Not too much about it. Yeah. But

30:14

because of the hatred he had for his father being

30:16

a police enshoamer. But what could

30:18

not get over the fact that he's loved for

30:20

his mother, he wouldn't have killed his mother. You

30:23

know, to execute your mother as collateral damage,

30:25

it just something I couldn't get my head

30:27

around to say I couldn't see Andrew being

30:29

involved in that at all. Did

30:31

you have any, you know, anyone

30:33

else in the frame? I mean, in one sense it's

30:36

huge, I guess, the frame. And then

30:38

in the other sense, they were a family who

30:40

kept themselves pretty close. They

30:42

had a pretty close network of

30:44

associates and friends. Yeah. Well, again,

30:46

it's better than start doing, you know,

30:49

you're going back into the drug

30:51

house who's involved in that, trying to identify the

30:53

owner of the drug house, be it identify Moc

30:55

Bell, then the guy that was at Middle

30:57

Eastern Turkish guy, I think it was, who was involved

30:59

with his name. And he became

31:01

a prime suspect. So they all become prime

31:03

suspects of the fact that they've

31:05

been broke, lost quite a considerable amount of money

31:08

in drugs. But then

31:10

look at the benefactors of

31:12

Terry's demise and the

31:14

fact that Andrew had said that this threat

31:16

had allegedly been made by Paul Dyer. That

31:19

led me to make the decision that night,

31:21

once we processed the crime scene, to take

31:23

out warrants, as Mechel was out on bail

31:25

at that stage, to

31:28

take out search warrants for Paul Dale's

31:30

house in Coburg and

31:33

Dave Mechel's house in down El Tona.

31:36

So big decision to make because I had no

31:38

one to reference it to. But our

31:40

mantra is that without quoting the

31:43

obvious, without fear of

31:45

favour, why should I do something

31:47

different if a police officer becomes a

31:49

suspect in my investigation? Or the

31:51

answer is no, you don't do anything different. And

31:55

at that stage, Paul Dyer had been interviewed

31:57

by Internal Investigations. So I'm not going to

31:59

do that. made the decision to take out

32:01

the warrants before it

32:04

five o'clock that morning, next morning

32:06

after the murder scene, split

32:08

the team up and then I saw Solomon,

32:11

my sergeant went to Mieshel's house

32:14

because he had a lot of dealings with Carl Dahl

32:16

and I went with my other team members to Carl

32:19

Dahl's house and that introduced me ourselves

32:21

and away we went from there. At

32:25

what point did the idea

32:27

of Carl Williams involvement pop

32:30

up? Not for a long time in

32:32

the investigation. Not in your day? Not

32:34

in my day because... Because that takes

32:36

the crucial Nicola Gobbo

32:38

information doesn't it to piece that

32:41

together? That's right but so we

32:43

were just methodically going through potential

32:45

suspects we had identified and it got

32:47

to a stage where we interviewed Nicola

32:49

Gobbo being involved with Andrew and the likes

32:52

and basically finishing up with

32:55

the fact that look if you do hear anything let

32:57

us know but she

33:00

was that stage and very thick with her

33:02

police handlers and giving information had been for

33:04

quite some time. So in

33:06

essence whilst they concerned

33:09

me to say why would an

33:11

investigations magnitude that involves

33:13

major police corruption be

33:16

left with an ordinary

33:18

homicide investigation because this was bigger

33:20

than Ben Hur with the

33:22

tentacles that it led to with

33:24

the different internal investigations, seizure taskforce

33:27

and the whole enormity of the

33:29

police involvement of Meeschel in the

33:32

alleged involvement of poor Dale was

33:34

massive and you know that was

33:36

you know we were told in no one certain

33:38

terms that we had to have a clean desk

33:40

policy that all our investigation files was to be

33:43

locked up in a safe

33:45

every night and every week every

33:47

week I was directed to

33:50

grief Simon Overland while

33:52

the state the superintendent and

33:55

a member from the integrity police

33:57

integrity unit the

34:00

to the IBEC department. So these were the

34:02

problems saying this is all that I've done

34:04

for the week, this is what I'm supposed

34:06

to do next week. They in

34:08

particular, each of them were getting a

34:10

blow, blow, blow description of where my

34:13

investigation was. But

34:15

unbeknownst to me that Overland was

34:17

able to take that away, use

34:19

it to his own processes whilst

34:21

he's manipulating Nicola Gobbo in

34:24

getting her information using her and

34:26

trying to solve the whole case but not involving

34:28

me. We were

34:31

able to link a particular, that particular

34:33

information report 44 to

34:35

Tony Mockwell because in our

34:38

search we came across a

34:40

copy of the information report that had

34:42

been circulated in the underworld and

34:45

on that information report,

34:48

as the ones that are old enough to remember with

34:51

fax copies, the telephone number

34:53

of the fax machine appears on the top of

34:55

the page where it's faxed from

34:58

and we were able to link that fax

35:00

number to Tony Mockwell, an

35:02

address in Port Melbourne. Subsequently

35:05

we interviewed Tony Mockwell, had nothing

35:07

on him, but we went

35:09

to his apartment in the Docklands in Nosedice

35:12

and he said, look, typically like mobile

35:14

phones, he said I got rid of that fax machine

35:16

years ago. I don't know who's

35:18

got it now. Whilst it may tell

35:20

you the same number, we weren't able to

35:23

address that much at all from that point of

35:25

view. We've

35:35

reissued the two-part interview with disgraced former

35:37

Drug Squad detective Paul Dale for you

35:39

this week to give you his perspective

35:41

on the story. As

35:45

promised, I am thrilled to announce that our

35:47

tickets for Australian True Crime Live are now

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Googled your own name? Solomon

38:44

Overland engaged the services

38:46

of Taney Fitzgerald. Taney

38:48

Fitzgerald was a significant QC

38:51

up in Queensland to

38:53

review the Hodgson investigation. I

38:55

said to my team, well look, Taney Fitzgerald

38:57

is coming down to look at how the Hodgson

39:00

investigation has been conducted etc, etc.

39:03

So I got all my ducks in the row, dutifully

39:06

waited to be interviewed by

39:08

Taney Fitzgerald, never

39:10

coming anywhere near me. I

39:12

said, well how does that work? I've

39:15

run the investigation, I've carried the

39:17

investigation and for him

39:19

not to speak to the lead investigator was

39:22

perplexing to me. Well, what's that all about? I

39:25

labelled myself on the window dressing. Overland

39:28

came out quite open when he was getting criticized

39:30

about how big it was. He said, well no,

39:33

we've got the best investigator on this as best

39:35

we can and to try to paint

39:37

the picture that things were happening

39:40

well and while he is working

39:42

behind my back with Lawyer X and

39:44

trying to solve the case himself. Well

39:46

this is it. There's a lot of window

39:48

dressing isn't there, even bringing down Taney Fitzgerald.

39:50

It seems like there's a lot of busy

39:52

work to make the public

39:54

think, oh they're doing something, they're doing

39:56

stuff but actually the key piece of

39:59

information was— was what he wanted to

40:01

protect more than anything else. And that

40:03

was Nicholas status as an

40:05

informant. Well, he was deflecting. That's

40:07

what he was doing by all this smoke and

40:09

mirrors, he was deflecting. I was

40:12

involved with the investigation for two past years,

40:14

leading and running it. And

40:16

again perplexed the same, well, you

40:18

know, Hackam is still with me

40:20

as a normal homicide investigation. This

40:22

is enormous. And it wasn't until

40:25

the penny dropped, I'm at

40:28

home on leave. And then I get contacted

40:30

by a particular, particularly inspector

40:32

who was running the Corona task force.

40:35

And he informed me that Simon

40:37

Overland had decided to find

40:40

me some two years later after the

40:42

murder to put together

40:44

a task force called Petra. And

40:47

he's taken your sergeant, Sol Solomon, and

40:50

taken your detective, Cameron Davie,

40:52

who were with myself, the lead

40:54

investigators in the whole case. We knew the

40:56

case backwards. And I said to the inspector,

40:59

well, hey, Hackam,

41:01

I'm not part

41:03

of the Petra investigation. I

41:05

said, well, why wasn't I

41:07

even asked? We

41:09

didn't seem to ask you, we didn't take your joke. So

41:12

that was a response. So because I said, okay,

41:14

I can't beat you all. That's the decision and

41:16

the way it went. If you can remind us

41:18

about a moment you told me about once where

41:20

you were walking down Ligon street, a

41:22

car bit at you and it was Mick

41:24

Gatto. Yeah, but

41:26

actually I've just come out

41:28

of the Melbourne magistrate's court, this

41:31

is sometime after the murders. And

41:33

I've gone in a relationship with

41:36

Mick Gatto, professional relationship with Mick Gatto, the

41:39

Bippie's horn and he

41:41

pulled over and I walked up to the car, and the

41:43

passenger seat was Nicola Gatto. Mick

41:45

and I had a discussion over the

41:48

front of Nicola Gatto over another mentor

41:50

that involved Mick Gatto. Most

41:53

of them were about the huts and murders. And then

41:55

I'll find out later that when Nicola

41:58

Gatto gave evidence at some level. that

42:00

she was virtually very

42:03

concerned at that particular meeting that I had with

42:05

Mick in her presence. She

42:07

believed that I knew that she was a

42:09

police informer, so she was most concerned about

42:11

that, but I was clearly unaware of that at all.

42:14

As far as I was concerned, up

42:16

until the time of her being named as lawyer ex,

42:19

I just saw Nicola Gubbough

42:22

right through as being a

42:24

staunch defence barrister,

42:26

but not none of the intricate relationship

42:29

she was having with her

42:31

police handlers in the Sommon Overland. Throughout

42:33

the evidence in the Royal Commission, we heard the

42:36

lengths to which they went to keep

42:38

Nicola happy, to keep her on board, to

42:41

keep her. Sometimes she'd say, I don't want to

42:43

do this anymore, and they really, really wanted to

42:45

keep her as an informant. And

42:47

so I always wonder what effect that would

42:50

have had had she gone back to her

42:52

handlers and said, I think Rosina knows, I

42:54

think Charlie Rosina knows. I don't think I was, and not

42:56

blowing my own trumpet, but I don't think it was part

42:58

of the task force because he knew that I

43:01

spoke me out in mind. And if

43:03

Rosina, I'm just reading between

43:05

the lines, saying Rosina finds out about

43:07

what I'm doing with Nicola Gubbough, he's

43:10

going to take it quite quietly. He's going to

43:12

go and do something about it. But you know

43:14

what? The best way is to remove him, not

43:16

remove him, but not make him part of the

43:18

petrol task force. Yeah, I think it's definitely to

43:20

do with Nicola thinking you had figured it out.

43:23

Yeah, exactly. So keep me at arm's length. And

43:25

then when they charged Karl

43:27

Williams, I mean, Karl Williams made

43:30

three statements against Paul

43:33

Dale, implicating Paul Dale, allegedly saying

43:35

that Paul Dale had paid him $150,000 to

43:37

kill Terry Hott, not him, but

43:40

engaged someone to kill Terry Hott. Through Gubbough.

43:42

The accusation was that she was the intermediary,

43:45

that she took the message from

43:47

Paul Dale to Karl Williams, asking

43:50

for a hit to be carried out on Terrence Hudson,

43:52

and that Karl had agreed. Believe

43:54

It or not, there's meetings between Paul Dale and

43:56

Karl Williams, and there's this leche that has it

43:58

at the end. Williams met.

44:01

Oh darling the Syrian troops are not

44:03

only can be why that cedric say

44:05

to study the above we are in

44:07

the streets a lot more northern suburbs

44:09

somewhere and stuff like that but that

44:12

was the allegation so he we had

44:14

again another mismanagement by I've Landed. Allowed.

44:17

Ta. Williams to dictate. To.

44:20

Overland of here we wanted to be traded or

44:22

what you. Are what be toy

44:24

police to pay my father's tax bill

44:26

or why should apply to code is

44:28

still face. Or once you the check

44:30

me out so of a prostitute he said reject rap.

44:33

And. That was all

44:35

given toy. Or. The prices

44:37

of age of into A Yet while it

44:39

is in jail while seasons all and that

44:41

live album been a kosher. A

44:44

unit with johnson. And this

44:46

other a prisoner jews in the suburbs. So.

44:49

With is free. And ultimately. Ah,

44:51

That's when and I based the prison say

44:53

rome's Well nine at thought when to become

44:55

an informer. Through the pipework it

44:57

was fans and the in these jobs to help.

45:00

And then. Instead of it out

45:02

of running full was over the

45:04

is myself and this a certain

45:06

while you're reading solvency you decide

45:08

to inform once you give thin

45:10

what I would like Asda. By

45:13

Deliver. Their car Williams. Should.

45:16

Have delivered. Once. He delivers these

45:18

evidence at a criminal proceedings making the

45:21

allegations against pulled island site old I'll

45:23

did this this this this a minute.

45:26

And then hopefully be corroborated.

45:28

Body. Investigators. And.

45:30

Know what been the catalyst eight? The

45:32

atlas of old our been charged with

45:34

the meadow, the cherry awesome and Christine

45:37

them awesome. Was on the

45:39

evidence on the three statements made

45:41

by Kyle Williams s but unfortunately

45:43

yet again it on the verge

45:45

of giving evidence against whole dial

45:47

the laid witness was made. It.

45:50

Yep, and the benefactor pulled. I'll.

45:53

Do it sorry become a prime suspect. Was

45:55

the lead to. Another cigarette, the

45:57

task force to be put together, and

45:59

the fact. Halloween.

46:02

Was bludgeoned to death in the Akashi and

46:04

up with a stem have a boss. Was

46:06

late by John Some. Then.

46:09

Let his or video type, No one sees

46:11

a third rate we sell or that is

46:13

an issue. I mean, and with facts about

46:15

that a number of times on the science,

46:18

Roberta Williams still wants an increase because you

46:20

know he's in the occasion It supposedly the

46:22

most. Secure. Unit in the

46:24

country and he's best. I've

46:26

heard the course of twenty minutes the by. Another

46:28

he might and no one say that is. Cameras

46:31

everywhere. They. Say is great result for a

46:33

to resell mysteries with them before we

46:35

sell. But. They best a guy

46:37

some the hell was in the prison system. Never

46:40

done for the necropsy Utah and. We.

46:42

Have figured we have it. On.

46:44

Always looks it this way My their the task was to

46:46

look at it. Why would the

46:49

likes of this hardened criminal code

46:51

johnson? To. On

46:53

the behest of pull dial. A

46:55

police officer? Or would he do it? That

46:57

didn't make sense to the enough sleep with the in but

46:59

the task force. Couldn't. Afford notably

47:01

to tool. But. It was

47:04

so driven bullet cool dial. So.

47:06

Johnston's Fall zoc. It's a but little I

47:08

know repeats when the lawns and seat killed.

47:10

Twelve. In the see if I tried rebooting a

47:13

place in form which was on the front page of

47:15

the paper that I remember spirit these are he was

47:17

redesigned a long a look. At better

47:19

than those are the there was that the

47:21

police documents that that he'd be served on

47:23

top in the sell themselves exactly cetera side.

47:27

I. Wouldn't the to involves? Oaxaca

47:29

My To. Cover up by the

47:32

prison system. I think it would just

47:34

complacency. It's just imagine. For. I'd

47:36

As easy as you're lucky and I'm want. Someone.

47:39

Comes along. You start to the someone the

47:41

outlook is tomorrow because it's the side mundane

47:43

thing. Die and die. And

47:45

as this complacency the the one will be at

47:47

the motor the windy gets beaten to death effect. Twenty

47:50

minutes. So very well you mean that it's

47:52

got one shot a bit. of as that's

47:54

why seen as because of the end of the night

47:56

either house just feel. Nothing. Was

47:58

fab Answer will decide was for up. That that

48:00

was a major camera. David.

48:02

Vs Never Family. He

48:04

was also suggestion that johnson. Had been

48:06

guided intuit by the third man who was

48:08

in this sell his name to suppress see

48:11

if it was. On the fine when

48:13

the attack began, snows the suggestion

48:15

that. Whomever he was on the

48:17

find seats they were setting it up and

48:19

that they they kind. Of somehow got.

48:22

Johnson. To do It. The other thing

48:24

is that tall. and roberta. Were onto

48:26

the color Gaba by the states? yeah

48:28

it's all Birds are bought open with.

48:31

He said and and she said that

48:33

it'll just realizes notice because he would

48:35

say. A come into the prison to visit

48:37

people who won't her clients and then the saw

48:39

them sleep after I'd spoken to. Her. And

48:41

he and Roberta had written official

48:43

lead. Us to the Ombudsman com

48:46

complaining about Nicholas conduct cyanide grave

48:48

concerns yeah about her her conduct

48:50

site solely that puts other people

48:53

in the frame for our health

48:55

murder. Whoa. Just

48:57

from she knows if nothing else. With.

48:59

Again in out that the poor handling. Of

49:02

who are whims and says oh we him

49:04

So the boom in mod. You

49:06

are avoiding witness against my to

49:09

police corruption. You are

49:11

going to study. In and

49:13

or slathered you that on your on the

49:15

outside the prison and I will need to

49:17

protect you. From. Anyone. You.

49:19

Be locked up The twins way as a died when

49:22

they are you must have we gotta was locked up.

49:24

With driven. At the hands

49:26

of idol M P Live. Paul.

49:28

Williams dig site To him him so

49:30

sort of one. Had towel

49:33

weems. Been a protective

49:35

custody be a lot. Been

49:37

given a vanessa The Capital Proceedings. And

49:40

this guy he was in murdered after the

49:43

criminal proceedings. The system could have

49:45

used these evidence at the gym. Little proceedings

49:47

against pool dial. But. As

49:49

result of call be noted. The

49:52

statement said he might the worthless. And.

49:54

as a consequence bow the stars and this

49:56

way proud of them over that with the

49:59

murders But once Carl was

50:01

dead, those charges were withdrawn against Paul Dale

50:03

and Rodney Collins. Talk to us about

50:05

Rodney Collins. The allegation is that Collins was paid

50:07

$150,000 to kill Terri

50:10

Hodson and Christine because she was

50:12

there. This character

50:14

who, because of

50:16

his line of work, actually maintained a

50:19

very low profile for most of his life,

50:21

didn't he? He must say. He

50:23

said when we look at him, whilst

50:25

he's a scary looking dude and

50:27

over it, skinny, but very formidable

50:29

with the gun he's handed, has

50:31

been known to have killed many,

50:33

many, many people. Yeah, and suspected

50:35

of killing many more. Absolutely.

50:38

Absolutely. And he died

50:41

in custody, of course. His history, though,

50:43

as a man of incredible violence and

50:45

of a hit man, essentially, right? Absolutely.

50:49

And just fearless in relation

50:51

to committing these executions for

50:54

money. Yeah, and not sentimental at all.

50:56

By which I mean he had already

50:58

been convicted of shooting a couple. The

51:01

man, Roman Abbey, was the man that

51:03

he was after, but his wife Dorothy

51:05

was home. So Collins took her out as

51:07

well. And it fits him

51:09

at the Terri Hodson situation, Christine. Yeah.

51:11

And that inflatable damage you're a witness,

51:14

well, you're not going to survive. So

51:17

the idea is that, well, the allegation

51:19

was that Dale asked Williams to set

51:21

it up and this was the cost of it.

51:24

Where did they allege the money came from to

51:26

pay it? How did Dale pony up $150,000

51:29

when he was under so much scrutiny at

51:32

the time? How does any of that

51:34

work out? Well, one more note, the whole

51:37

situation is that Paul Dale

51:39

has been being tired with being

51:41

a police officer. He's

51:43

never been convicted of innocent. Nope. Whilst

51:46

he's been charged with a number

51:48

of offences, he's never been convicted of

51:50

innocent. So he remains innocent police. But

51:54

one could only just, you know, take

51:56

your pick where the money would have come from, where

51:59

it was actually put for the case. called by car

52:01

wings, car wings may have put it on the tick

52:04

and by putting on the tick I mean

52:06

it is a credit. So

52:08

it would benefit car wings to have Paul

52:11

Dale on the strings, they look, don't worry about it,

52:13

I'll do it for a freebie but you won't

52:15

meet and Paul Dale on the strings forever

52:17

in a day. Who knows? Paul

52:20

Dale to this day has never been

52:23

convicted of anything so the allegations have

52:25

been unproven to spend alleged against him.

52:27

Definitely, I mean he will say and has

52:29

said many times his life has been destroyed, obviously

52:32

his career has been destroyed but yeah he's never

52:34

actually been convicted of any of these crimes.

52:37

Exactly and that's the justice system we work

52:39

under. So

52:42

why was Rodney Collins never convicted

52:44

of this crime given that I mean it

52:46

is theoretically an unsolved crime and yet most

52:49

people involved in any way assume

52:51

that Rodney Collins murdered the Hodson's.

52:54

Well I'll tell you for granted he made no confession

52:56

so he denied it and like Dale the only

52:59

evidence against both of them was the

53:01

evidence out of Tarl Williams. There

53:03

was no other implicating evidence. Mandy

53:05

Hodson has told me herself

53:07

that she doesn't believe her dad

53:10

would have opened the door to Rodney Collins that

53:12

night. She said he was

53:14

definitely aware of who Rodney Collins was.

53:16

Right, right. And so she said yeah

53:19

if he had seen Rod Collins standing at the door

53:22

he'd have known not to open the door.

53:24

Yeah well it was the thing that kept

53:26

on and says where he died I still

53:28

can't accept how or who apart

53:31

from him he certainly would have opened the door. I'm

53:33

not saying these people are involved but you know the

53:35

likes of who do you ever trust in here? Trust

53:38

in the internal investigators that they've been dealing with but

53:41

they're not in the frame for anything. So

53:44

who in Terry's

53:46

relationship that he's had

53:49

he'd opened the door for Andrew, he'd

53:51

opened the door for his family. Someone in a

53:53

police uniform I think is. Well that's what we

53:55

thought. That was one theory that someone had a

53:57

state or federal identification and they gave him some.

54:00

cock and bull story and let

54:02

themselves in. They should certainly play

54:04

the part. But the other irony

54:06

to it too was that even

54:08

though Terry was prepared

54:11

to look after himself, he

54:13

continued on his drug dealing whilst he's basically

54:15

being looked after by the internal investigators. And

54:18

one of the things that irked me was that whilst

54:22

they allowed Terry to put

54:24

his own CCTV cameras

54:26

up and recording up himself, the

54:29

first question I asked the internal investigators

54:32

was well why didn't you put up

54:34

your own video surveillance? Could have

54:36

quite easily said you know what we're not

54:38

going to trust Terry and we

54:40

want to know ourselves what's Terry up to

54:44

whilst he's in our care. But

54:46

that wasn't the case either. Mum's free situation, you

54:49

know they could have quite easily put up a video

54:51

recorder, didn't have to be mad, so

54:53

they could see the gut comings and goings

54:55

of Terry. It's echoes of Karl's death as

54:57

well, isn't it? It's a very very important

55:00

witness and it seems like the basics haven't

55:02

been carried out. Miss

55:04

management. The

55:06

other issue that I was dealing with at that time

55:08

and had been this through the whole

55:10

period of the investigation was Simon

55:13

Overland, he was didn't like,

55:16

there was five team leaders in homicide. He

55:19

didn't like our status, our

55:21

experience, our knowledge. And

55:23

our kid officer where we stood

55:26

within the whole community and the organisation. Yeah

55:28

it was a quite a strange situation wasn't

55:30

it in its way. I mean you, the

55:33

famous five people have been known

55:35

to call you, you and Ron

55:38

Eddles and Roland and Lucio

55:40

Robis. Jeff Ma. Jeff Ma, Mari.

55:42

Yeah. So yeah you were very

55:44

famous really in the city and in the

55:46

state because you'd had a lot of great results and

55:48

because also you were the guys who'd front

55:50

the media about about homicides and things like

55:52

that. Overland on the other hand

55:54

was a different kind of copper. It had never been

55:57

done before in that he was given the right to

55:59

be a cop. this position in

56:01

leadership and he'd never worked

56:03

in the squads before. He was an

56:06

academic. So it was this attempt, I

56:08

think on behalf of the Victorian government to sort of

56:10

make it look a bit more, a bit

56:12

classier or something. Well, I think that was

56:14

more, that was more driven by Christine Nixon.

56:17

Because Christine Nixon was an overland

56:19

choice. He was the

56:22

great white hope for Victoria because

56:25

Christine Nixon made him in charge of the

56:28

piranha task force to the underworld murders.

56:31

He'd never seen any remaining in his life. All

56:33

he did was front the media, every murder

56:35

we got, he'd fight the media, make

56:38

a media announcement, away he'd go. Then

56:40

it was his idea to cycle the

56:42

famous five to cycle you guys out.

56:44

We're the only five operational

56:47

detective senior sergeants in the crime department.

56:50

Every other senior sergeant was an administrator. So

56:53

because we were

56:56

at a stage that we'd all

56:58

got full gun promotion. We'd

57:00

been there, I've been there 17 years. Others

57:02

been there 20 years, 25 years, et cetera,

57:04

et cetera. And we were happy

57:06

leading an operational investigation scene. We'd get

57:09

around into the field and do

57:11

it from the front line. We were doing political,

57:13

essentially, vital police shootings. You

57:16

name it, we were leading a whole investigation.

57:18

So tell us about where

57:20

you were, what was going on

57:22

with you when you started to

57:24

learn about the truth of what

57:26

had been happening around you during

57:29

that investigation. Once I wasn't

57:31

part of the task force Petra that was looking at

57:33

the hots and murders, I

57:35

just went back to my basic running

57:37

the center of investigators that I had

57:39

left. So it was okay.

57:42

Then there was an allegation and I believe that I

57:44

was set up. There was

57:46

two of us being set up myself and

57:49

another, at least obviously, who was on my

57:51

team. The Petra task force

57:54

was formed by Simon Averland, a secret

57:56

task force to investigate hots and murders.

57:58

I wasn't part of it. But

58:00

the stipulation was, directly from

58:02

Overland, Charlie, I want

58:04

you to be appraised of

58:07

the progress of the task force.

58:10

And I said, this is a secret task

58:12

force, why am I being appraised of any

58:14

developments in the task force? And

58:17

I thought nothing more of it. So

58:19

on three separate occasions, this particular detective

58:21

in speak that summoned him into his

58:24

office and said, Charlie, running was the

58:26

example, I think we may have found the pistol

58:28

that shot the Hodson's. And I said

58:30

to him, why are you telling me this? I

58:32

don't need to know it. It went one ear and out

58:35

the other. And this happened on

58:37

three occasions. And then the penny

58:39

dropped. It wasn't for some time later because I

58:41

didn't think that I had people

58:43

in the police department working against me. I

58:46

believe that there were certain people

58:48

in the organisation that thought I was corrupt. I

58:51

looked at the same ploy

58:53

that Simon Overland did on his

58:56

media director, Stephen L. So

58:59

he had the media director, Stephen L. And

59:02

that was at a stage where there

59:04

was information leaving the chief commissioner's office

59:07

and was going to an assistant commissioner

59:10

and a secretary of the police union called Mullet.

59:14

So what Simon Overland did was feed information

59:16

to Stephen L. But Lesley

59:18

went to the assistant commissioner that Lesley

59:20

went to the full mullet. And

59:23

then based on having their

59:25

phones intercepted, Simon Overland was

59:27

able to establish that then as soon as

59:29

information was leaving his office. They

59:31

were subsequently charged by the integrity

59:33

unit and never progressed or charged

59:35

with because of some administrative error.

59:38

So you believe that you were being called

59:40

in and given information you didn't ask for

59:42

that was inappropriate to give you because it's a

59:44

secret task force. Correct. Just to see if it

59:46

would pop up in the media. Well,

59:49

no, exactly. But they believed this is

59:51

our rehearsal. So

59:53

the information I put together was Simon Overland's

59:56

through his instinct that would tell me certain

59:58

things about the Hotzel investigation. I

1:00:01

would then tell this particular detective that used

1:00:03

to be on my team. This

1:00:05

detective would then tell a particular armed

1:00:07

robbery squad detective who was very close

1:00:10

with Paul Dale. And I've got no

1:00:12

doubt in my mind that

1:00:14

my phones were intercepted as

1:00:17

were the phones of this

1:00:19

detective because they believed we were giving information

1:00:21

back to Paul Dale. Nothing could be further from

1:00:23

the truth. And I wanted

1:00:25

to access, as the SIS commissioner does

1:00:27

and does Paul Mullard, I

1:00:30

wanted to access the affidavit that's used against

1:00:32

us to put our phone

1:00:34

in the steps on. And

1:00:37

unfortunately because they are 6%, you

1:00:39

cannot get those copies. And that

1:00:41

would have been the basis of

1:00:43

Simon Hovilay. You would think after

1:00:46

the Royal Commission and all of that that you would be

1:00:48

able to get access to that now. Yeah, no, exactly. That's

1:00:50

what we thought, but you can't. And

1:00:52

that would have shown a real situation

1:00:54

of what basis of the information

1:00:56

that our privacy was breached in

1:00:59

relation to that. And it went nowhere. Yeah,

1:01:01

absolutely. They never found a gun to

1:01:03

date. Oh, they never, but as you said, there

1:01:05

was no reason apart from me being set up

1:01:08

to give me information that was so secret.

1:01:11

This is how we were treated. And that

1:01:14

played a major role in

1:01:16

my mental outlook, in my PT, Stephen,

1:01:18

who eventually left, is

1:01:20

because I then

1:01:22

eventually, some months later, get rotated by

1:01:24

the homicide squad. And

1:01:27

I had an audience with Simon Odewack and

1:01:29

I said, well, Simon, you know, I've been

1:01:31

running the Hudson investigation for two and a

1:01:33

bit years. I'm not part of the

1:01:36

secret task force. Then I

1:01:38

moved out, unceremoniously, out

1:01:40

of the homicide squad to the piranha

1:01:42

task force as an administrator. I

1:01:45

said, what do you think people are going

1:01:47

to think? They are going to think that

1:01:49

the Zeta must be corrupt. He's not

1:01:51

part of the task force. He's

1:01:53

then moved out of the homicide squad. And

1:01:56

then the whole investigation, Hudson's, as we've

1:01:58

said, involved major police. corruption and

1:02:01

I said you've just ruined and that stage was my

1:02:04

35 year credibility and reputation. I

1:02:06

said you've ruined it. Wow. Because that's

1:02:08

what people are going to be seeking

1:02:11

of me. That's quite heavily on

1:02:13

my psychological outlook. This is stuff

1:02:15

that the rest of us don't understand the

1:02:17

politics of these movements. Exactly. At

1:02:19

the behest of this fellow they didn't know

1:02:21

which way was up in relation

1:02:24

to crime investigations and my

1:02:26

belief was why am I being punished? Well,

1:02:28

it was all my great service that I've

1:02:30

had the fact that I had information staying

1:02:32

there, having no family life and

1:02:35

doing what I did for the 38 years that I

1:02:37

did and this is how I'm thinking about being pushed

1:02:39

out of the squad that I dearly loved and

1:02:41

was good at. And that then led

1:02:44

into December 2009 after being on

1:02:47

sick leave for a while and seeing psychologists and the

1:02:49

life stuff because of the work that I did and

1:02:52

what I saw throughout my career, I survived on that.

1:02:54

It was dealings by Simon

1:02:56

Overland against me of what

1:02:59

had happened and I couldn't

1:03:01

get out of the line and I just walked away

1:03:03

and then started a whole new line of what

1:03:05

am I going to do now? I'm no longer

1:03:07

a police officer. I've been a police officer since

1:03:10

I was 17. I

1:03:12

was so glad for you and for

1:03:14

lots of other people when the Royal

1:03:16

Commission went in the direction that it went because

1:03:18

I knew that so many people were being vindicated

1:03:21

over what they'd been through during the Overland years

1:03:23

at Victoria Police. Well, it took me two years

1:03:25

to get over it and the

1:03:27

fact is that you're given 38 years

1:03:29

of your working life or half of

1:03:32

your life to Victoria Police.

1:03:34

I enjoyed it. I really thrived on

1:03:36

dealing with the community, giving the community

1:03:38

results but they need to be thrown on the

1:03:40

trash heap by command at that

1:03:43

stage and I suffered the BTN Street

1:03:45

and that's what we have, some

1:03:47

survive it and some don't unfortunately but

1:03:50

I'm a making of the organisation. It's

1:03:52

not from the work that I did

1:03:54

or what I saw. I

1:03:56

hope that's my legacy and I've been

1:03:59

lucky enough to start. in a

1:04:01

particular field in helping families and being

1:04:03

in the media still to this furry

1:04:05

day. And that's the legacy that I

1:04:07

built for myself over my

1:04:09

period of time, particularly the homicide squad, because

1:04:12

as you said earlier, we were household names

1:04:14

and the community relied upon us and it

1:04:16

was all shattered by our rotation

1:04:18

of the homicides, what to the

1:04:20

egotistical views of one particular individual.

1:04:23

Mismanagement has led to the murder of

1:04:25

Carl Williams. It's led to the

1:04:28

death of Terry and Christine Hodson.

1:04:30

Whilst you cannot force people to get witness

1:04:32

protection, you could have put other measures in

1:04:34

place, they could have protected them a lot better. These

1:04:37

are crucial witnesses. Having a task force from

1:04:39

the very outset, not levy it to me

1:04:42

for two years, and

1:04:44

because of the mismanagement, these

1:04:46

murders will never be solved with Carl Williams

1:04:49

and the Hodson's. on

1:05:18

1 800 737 732 or 1800 respect.org.au. Indigenous Australians can contact 13

1:05:20

yarn on 13 92 76 or 13 yarn.org.au.

1:05:36

Thank you for downloading this episode of Australian

1:05:38

True Crime. We'll be back next week.

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