0:00

This is the authentic sex

0:02

podcast and real life conversations about

0:04

sex, pleasure, and relationships. I'm

0:07

your host Juliet Palace. Welcome

0:13

to episode number one

0:16

hundred and forty eight of the Authentic

0:18

Sex podcast. My name is

0:20

Juliet. Allen, I'm a sexologist and

0:23

sex and relationship coach. And

0:25

this in this very special episode

0:28

of Authentic Sex, I have

0:30

my beautiful friend, Hailey

0:32

Halloran, with me. Hailey

0:35

is the founder of paper bark

0:37

death care. She is a holistic

0:40

death care and funeral guide. And

0:43

today, we are talking all

0:45

things deaf, dying, and

0:47

grief. This was

0:49

an absolute honor

0:52

and pleasure to record with

0:54

Hailey. We sat down in

0:56

her living room And we

0:58

spoke about death. And yeah,

1:01

I'm really excited to share this. It's a topic

1:03

that has never been covered on

1:05

the Authentic Sex podcast, and

1:09

it's something that I do wanna bring out

1:12

into the light, out of the shadows. It's

1:15

just like sex. You know, it's it's one of

1:17

those topics that I don't think in our

1:19

culture speak about enough. and

1:21

a lot of us are afraid of our own death

1:24

or the death of loved ones. And So

1:28

yeah, I really hope that you love this

1:30

conversation with Hailey. This episode

1:33

of Authentic Sex is sponsored by

1:35

the Juliet Pleasure wand. The

1:37

Juliet is a premium crystal pleasure

1:39

one designed to heighten your sexual

1:41

energy. Increase self love

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and self pleasure. Expand and your

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can read more and purchase your own

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crystal wand by visiting my

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dot juliet

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com.

2:00

Welcome back to authentic sex so

2:03

good to have you

2:04

back on the show

2:06

because you were on a few, well,

2:08

a few seasons ago now.

2:10

talking

2:10

about something completely

2:12

different to what we're gonna talk about today.

2:14

But

2:15

yeah. I'm looking forward to

2:16

this chat For context, we're just

2:19

sitting here together on the couch. Usually,

2:21

I record

2:21

on Zoom that's so nice to be doing it in person

2:23

with you. And

2:25

today, we're gonna be talking about death

2:27

and dying and grief and all

2:29

the things. Do you wanna tell so

2:32

this

2:32

is Hailey who I'm talking to, by the way.

2:34

Hello. Not there. Haley,

2:36

do you wanna tell people about you, what

2:38

you're doing

2:39

in the world now? Yeah. Sure.

2:42

Two years

2:43

ago,

2:44

I started a service

2:46

in death care and

2:48

home funerals, and I also do traditional

2:51

funerals as well. But eighty percent

2:53

of what

2:53

I do is

2:55

very in what do

2:57

we call in home funerals? Mhmm.

3:00

So as in your home,

3:02

I bring people home

3:04

to their people, their dead -- Mhmm. --

3:06

to wash, tend and

3:09

create a ceremony and a service.

3:12

in a very family led

3:14

and

3:14

holistic way.

3:17

So

3:18

everybody's very much a part of

3:20

it. and not having, you

3:22

know, traditionally speaking in

3:24

in the world when someone

3:26

passes

3:28

they're

3:28

almost taken away from us.

3:30

And it's a very hurried up experience,

3:33

whereas what, you know, I started

3:36

paper back

3:36

to have a stop

3:38

pause and slow everything down

3:40

and actually bring the

3:42

dead closer to us. Many

3:45

people forget that

3:47

we're mammals, and it's really important

3:49

that we tend to our own and not have

3:51

our people taken away from us.

3:53

Yeah. That's

3:56

so cool.

3:56

Is it common like what you're doing?

3:58

Or is it is it like

3:59

pit to have at in

4:01

home funerals, like in home

4:03

death

4:04

care. Mhmm. So in,

4:06

you know, Europe and especially Northern

4:08

Europe, it's still a very much a daily

4:10

practice. Mhmm. that, you

4:12

know, you will do a home funeral, and you'll

4:14

bring your person home to wash tend,

4:16

and there's usually a three to five day

4:18

vigil that's had. And

4:21

also for us, you know, about a

4:23

hundred and twenty years ago is

4:25

when

4:25

funeral directors began.

4:29

and they were only created

4:31

because of infectious diseases.

4:33

Right. Because people got fearful

4:35

when, you know, certain infectious diseases come

4:38

through. So the

4:39

funeral director, the mortician, was

4:42

almost created to,

4:44

you know, because of

4:46

that And there was a place for that,

4:48

but then after those diseases had

4:50

passed, that didn't need to be

4:52

a practice. But then I think everybody

4:54

had become then so fearful of death.

4:56

And that's the real pivotal

4:58

point. If we look back through history about

5:00

a hundred to a hundred and twenty years ago,

5:03

that's where you know, our

5:05

rituals and that real

5:07

ceremonial space of death is

5:09

taken away from us in the western world.

5:11

Mhmm. If you look to the east and in northern

5:13

Europe, it still very much accustomed --

5:15

Mhmm. -- but not for us. So

5:17

what I'm doing isn't new, it

5:19

isn't hip, it isn't like

5:22

any of these things that people often think.

5:24

It's just I'm I like to say, like, I'm

5:26

reviving off traditions. Yeah.

5:28

and returning females home -- Mhmm. --

5:31

where they have always been, you know, it's

5:33

like it's just so

5:35

important that our people and death are

5:37

in our hands in

5:39

our hearts and in our homes

5:42

until we're ready to go

5:43

to that final disposition

5:45

in the physical sense of body

5:48

-- Mhmm. -- you know, whether that is, you know,

5:50

whether that's going to the fire to cremation

5:52

or to be buried in the earth. And

5:54

then then there's a whole

5:56

other journey that begins after that.

5:59

You've

5:59

lost that

5:59

physicality and to be able to

6:02

see and touch a person. Mhmm.

6:03

And then grief. cycle begins

6:06

in a very

6:07

different way after that. Mhmm.

6:11

So I've got you on the podcast

6:13

it's called the Authentic Sex Podcast,

6:16

and here we are talking about death.

6:18

So I just wanna talk about

6:20

why you're here. Mhmm. just

6:22

so that people aren't like, oh, the latest

6:24

episode, and then they're like, what the fuck? Is

6:26

she, you know, watching it like that?

6:29

And

6:29

I think my reasoning

6:31

for talking about it is because, like,

6:34

sex is so taboo.

6:35

I

6:36

don't love that word,

6:37

but it's like still one of those topics

6:39

where people avoid talking about it.

6:41

It's in their shame around it.

6:44

And so is death, I feel like. So feel

6:46

like that very similar topics

6:48

in many ways as is

6:50

birth, I think me. And

6:53

and with recent

6:56

death of my father-in-law, John,

6:59

I have become more

7:02

curious

7:03

about what you're

7:05

doing. I think

7:06

that's one

7:07

thing too. So it's a personal thing for me

7:09

too.

7:11

and, yeah, fascinated with

7:13

with death.

7:15

So for me, I wanna

7:17

learn more. And I just think you

7:19

know, it's the it's the one guaranteed in

7:21

life, isn't it? We will die.

7:23

Yeah. So let's, like, bring

7:25

it out of the shadows and

7:27

the dark. nursing into --

7:30

Yeah. -- like another conversation. No.

7:33

Absolutely. There's so many parallels.

7:35

It's funny. It's the same, you

7:37

know, it's

7:38

the same coin,

7:39

you know, each side

7:40

of it, you know, it's sex and death, you

7:42

know. And personally, there's always

7:45

been my biggest interest in

7:47

life. Mhmm. You know, in all different

7:49

areas. And I suppose, you

7:51

know, now, you know, I've you know, I

7:53

became a grandmother, like

7:55

nineteen months ago. Mhmm. And

7:57

I started

7:59

paper back, you

8:00

know, a week after I wrapped

8:03

my grandmother. Yeah. Tell us how

8:05

pick a bump. Yeah. So it was a

8:07

I think all of my life, I've been

8:09

around death to a certain degree,

8:12

and have been

8:14

I

8:14

suppose comfortable in it. You

8:16

know, my

8:18

mom was asked recently about, you know, how did

8:20

your daughter get into this as well. She's been doing

8:22

this

8:22

since she was too. And I was like, what do you

8:24

mean too? From

8:26

everything from,

8:28

you know, Roadkill, No.

8:30

It's Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Like it I

8:33

mean, it's not that it's just that I

8:35

can't drive past it. I feel

8:37

responsible for that. And,

8:38

you know, so when I see people keep

8:41

animals or something in front of me, and from a little

8:43

girl, I would be screaming. I can remember, like,

8:45

being in the car seat in the back in,

8:47

like, my bright orange, cherry

8:49

tolling, car seat, like,

8:51

you know, three, four years old screaming at my

8:53

mom's start like Yeah.

8:55

We would have to stop and get the turtle off the

8:57

road or whatever it could be. From

8:59

one bat to kangaroos to

9:01

remember when you were out in the desert and you I

9:03

sent out a message and said, hey, you're going. You're

9:06

like, good. I've been sleeping on

9:08

route in the car with two like

9:10

dead eagles or something that I found.

9:12

The feathers are beautiful. I was like,

9:14

oh my god. She's like in the tard

9:16

with two dead animals. Just in

9:19

Herelina. Okay. The Let's

9:21

clarify. I was I did have a mute

9:23

and for where I was gonna put

9:25

them I needed to put them in

9:27

a space back to where they were gonna be

9:29

honored. So it's not necessary that

9:31

I don't I don't bring all the animals home. Some

9:33

I do for like a bear

9:35

like if I find a cat or a dog, I'm this

9:38

is what

9:39

I've been doing for the last twenty five years. It's

9:41

not as much anymore because I'm

9:42

actually usually a

9:43

human onboard now, but it's Yeah.

9:46

Yeah. But it I still

9:48

do or will always stop

9:49

-- Mhmm. -- and

9:50

just remove that. Just for me,

9:52

there's you and it's taken

9:54

me a long time.

9:55

I suppose

9:56

what I, you know, what I've come here to

9:58

do, I believe that we all

9:59

come here to be in service to something

10:02

in Kentucky. it

10:03

has. It's been around, you know, the

10:05

earlier stages. It was at birth, sex,

10:08

and now it's death. Mhmm. And I

10:10

could really feel when my We

10:12

might be beloved man passed

10:14

and I lapped her body and I

10:16

it was like the COGS shifted

10:18

like I actually felt it

10:19

viscerally. Mhmm. And spiritually, and

10:22

it was

10:22

like, okay, now it's the

10:24

time for me to actually go

10:25

into death work. I have

10:28

some really

10:29

dear friends that have been in death care and

10:31

doing death work for many

10:32

years, and they encouraged me

10:35

for

10:35

numerous years to get into it. And I was just like, oh,

10:38

I just don't feel ready. It's not really you

10:40

know, I don't know how do we do this because

10:42

most

10:42

people don't start a death

10:45

service, you know. No. If you look at,

10:47

you know, funeral

10:47

homes and all the other, you know,

10:50

death

10:50

businesses that are there, you're

10:51

usually born into it. Mhmm. Or

10:54

you seek it out at a younger age. So it's like

10:56

a family

10:56

business. Yeah. Yeah. So

10:59

it's been it's been challenging for me

11:01

doing

11:01

this too because, you

11:02

know, the funeral industry as a

11:05

whole is I

11:06

would go as far to say

11:08

it's, you know, it's a big

11:10

voice

11:10

club.

11:11

And it's very clicky

11:14

and it's controlled by

11:16

only a you, like, it's you know, we

11:18

won't go,

11:18

like, we won't go into that. It's, you

11:20

know, talking now, but

11:22

it's That's

11:24

why I started Papermark. I

11:26

suppose I am a bit of a punk

11:27

and a renegade in the

11:29

industry right now. There's a lot of funeral directors and

11:31

businesses that are happy that I've opened.

11:33

Oh, really? I'm doing certain things

11:35

about that. Yeah. So it's

11:37

why is that? Because oh, it's

11:39

money.

11:39

Yeah. Yeah. It's money and it's

11:42

business.

11:42

And for me, with paper bark, I'm, like,

11:44

really adamant that it's a service and

11:46

with what the things are. So

11:47

certain price points will just always be

11:49

the same.

11:50

I only have a hundred percent markup on

11:52

coffins and herbs and all the things, not a

11:55

thousand or ten thousand percent markup.

11:57

some, you know, that's, you know,

11:59

one

12:00

of my biggest things is is we really shouldn't be

12:02

going into debt to die and

12:04

many people die. Going into debt to die.

12:06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

12:08

because it costs lots to have a funeral

12:10

life. Yeah. So it goes any

12:12

it ranges from four

12:15

thousand dollars

12:17

to in excess of forty

12:19

thousand. Where? Yeah. And

12:21

then

12:21

that will be dependent on, you know, various

12:24

different things. So as

12:24

a coincidence, you know, which is probably

12:27

about formal.

12:28

clearly,

12:29

I don't even imagine that. Yes. Yeah.

12:32

Yeah.

12:33

Mhmm. But you

12:34

know what? In England, why is they're doing

12:36

death well? you know, you don't they force you

12:38

know, they've allocated in their, you know,

12:40

annual budgets for, you know,

12:43

funeral costs for people and

12:44

Well, yeah. So

12:47

it's not it's very different.

12:48

Australia look, Australia and America.

12:51

We've

12:51

got a lot

12:53

of room for movement and

12:57

So

12:57

is that for me as well what's quite exciting

12:59

is as this is a, you know, there's a big ground

13:01

swell happening with death care and people are

13:03

really starting to

13:04

investigate what they're right saw, like,

13:06

why is this?

13:07

And -- Mhmm. -- is more of a relationship

13:09

and questioning beginning. It's still

13:11

at the very, you know,

13:13

a

13:14

beginning point of that, but there's definitely

13:16

movement happening. Yeah.

13:18

So with

13:20

in home death care, to

13:23

say I were to die today.

13:25

Right. Like, right now die. Do

13:27

I have to go

13:29

somewhere? Like, to be

13:31

certified dead. Yeah. And

13:33

then after that,

13:35

could I be brought home? Or how does it --

13:37

Yeah. -- how does it work? So the

13:39

only way that you can stay

13:41

home

13:41

is to say

13:43

you say

13:44

we're at your house right now -- Yeah. -- because you

13:46

can only stay at your home

13:48

after you have died as if you were in

13:50

palliative care. Oh. You

13:52

have to have a palliative care team.

13:54

So say

13:54

you passed here or

13:57

something happen, I would have to ring

13:59

the ambulance and the

13:59

police, and they would have to come, and

14:02

then they would have to

14:04

you

14:04

know, sasa. The

14:05

environment with what goes on, then

14:10

the

14:10

paramedic

14:11

issue what's called a life extinct

14:14

form. But the ambulances don't

14:16

ever take the dead bodies.

14:18

It's yeah. Which is something a lot of

14:20

people don't. realize, is it

14:22

wherever you have found to

14:24

have passed, they'll go through their process,

14:26

and at least we'll go through their process.

14:28

And then the funeral director who's got

14:30

a contract for that region will come

14:33

and collect the body and then take your

14:35

body to

14:35

the nearest hospital. Mhmm. And

14:37

then at the hospital, they will try

14:39

and determine if they will

14:41

determine the cause of death if they're

14:43

unable to determine that cause of

14:45

death. Your body then has to be sent to the

14:47

coroner. We're

14:48

an autopsy. autopsy.

14:50

autopsy. is very neat.

14:52

happen. Yeah. And

14:53

then after that then after

14:55

that that process can take anywhere from a

14:57

week to

14:58

two to three weeks. So that

14:59

can be a really even

15:03

more kind of what I would say

15:05

shocking in a sense on the family,

15:07

especially if it's a sudden or an accidental

15:09

death. Mhmm.

15:11

So then the body will then be

15:13

released from the coroner, and then the

15:15

body will come back into the

15:17

care of whichever

15:19

funeral

15:20

director that you have chosen

15:21

or if you are choosing to

15:23

do what's called a do it yourself home

15:26

funeral. which you

15:27

can

15:28

do. Wow. Yeah. So you're a

15:30

funeral director. I like to

15:32

call myself a home funeral guide.

15:34

I am technically a funeral director because

15:36

I've got, like, this thing about

15:39

that

15:39

label. Mhmm. But I have I

15:41

am a funeral director you

15:44

know, some people wanna do the traditional thing,

15:46

and I am doing and doing

15:48

the whole thing.

15:48

But, you know, I don't like to say

15:50

I direct anything. I like to say that I guide

15:52

and

15:53

for me, you know, it's I come in

15:56

with paper back in the way that I've designed

15:58

the services and the choices that you have

15:59

is to say it's a little

16:02

paper butt pontoon that comes

16:04

in really gently underneath

16:05

each individual and

16:07

family, and then I do my best

16:09

to you know, just

16:10

guide what is

16:12

right for that family by letting them know

16:15

all of their rights,

16:16

what is possible and just

16:18

putting everything out in a way that

16:20

is really digestible because

16:22

for a lot of people and death occurs,

16:24

They're

16:26

in a state of shock and they're

16:28

actually unable to really process for

16:30

a period of time. So I

16:33

like to really go through the process slowly

16:35

and

16:36

just it's

16:38

really important to allow time to

16:39

stand still over those days

16:42

and weeks. months. And for many people,

16:44

it's a lifelong, you know.

16:46

Greeting never goes away. Our

16:47

person, our love for our people

16:49

never leaves us. Yeah. and

16:51

there's no such thing as time heels always

16:54

and always. You know,

16:56

it

16:56

will ebb and flow and change, but it's

16:59

something you carry with us

17:01

and

17:01

I love that there's a

17:03

saying, you know, the immensity

17:05

and the the the more pain

17:07

and all of the things that happen

17:09

within the grief cycle. It is the

17:11

exact. It's the

17:12

pendulum swung the other way for the amount

17:15

that

17:16

you've loved. So

17:19

the deeper

17:19

the love and

17:20

connectedness that you've had for your

17:23

person.

17:24

It's

17:25

just gonna be the same way.

17:26

Always there in that grief and that love,

17:29

and it's

17:29

just gonna come at random times even

17:31

years

17:31

after people have passed. when that

17:33

song comes on or you smell that smell or

17:35

you have that thought or, you know,

17:38

some random person in front of you in

17:40

a distant does something because wearing a

17:42

similar shirt is in

17:44

your

17:44

body and it never goes. It's

17:46

just learning to dance with

17:49

that. and

17:49

perhaps accept it too. Yeah. I think

17:51

it's Yeah. It's a level of acceptance that this

17:53

is not going. Like, this

17:54

is part of me now. Yeah.

17:58

and it is and it can be

17:59

really crippling for some

18:03

people because it just and

18:05

it's specialty. This is where I say again for us

18:07

in the west because

18:10

culturally we've had death taken

18:11

away from us. in

18:14

such a

18:14

way that now when we experience or

18:16

we witness our friends and family that are in,

18:18

you know, in that liminal space of

18:21

in that death portal, especially

18:23

in that you know, the first

18:25

three months

18:27

is it

18:29

is intense. It's alive. It's like this

18:31

whole thing. And then when the three months

18:33

mark happens, then you go to a different stage.

18:35

There is an

18:37

extra slowing diet inside of yourself.

18:39

Everything's kind of returned back to normal.

18:42

but there's

18:43

a different longing that

18:44

arrives in that

18:47

yearning for your

18:49

person and, yeah,

18:51

So

18:51

there's There are different stages of it, and,

18:54

you know, everybody does

18:55

it differently. Yeah. It's

18:58

there's no

18:59

one way, no right way.

19:01

And, you know, for me at the moment, like, if

19:03

you you'd just ask me, like, what's my greatest

19:05

struggle and difficulty with the paper black

19:07

right now? It's after care. and

19:09

knowing how to support people

19:12

and, you know, to be able to plug into

19:14

resources, where grief

19:16

groups are happening. You know, there's great things

19:18

called death cafes. There's also another

19:20

thing called death over dinner -- Mhmm. -- and

19:22

to for people and communities to really

19:25

start getting those things happening --

19:27

Mhmm. -- so that there are, you know, that they

19:29

are monthly made up points and

19:31

for people to go to. That

19:33

makes so much sense. That's what people

19:36

need because happens, someone dies, and then we

19:38

go through the right planning, the funeral

19:40

thing, which is that time stamps deal

19:42

and it's this kind of

19:45

weird is

19:45

kind of

19:46

like, okay, we're planning this is

19:48

this was my experience. We're planning the funeral of

19:51

this man that we loved. And

19:53

then everyone goes. And

19:56

then

19:56

the family are left to grieve.

19:58

And I think in that time,

19:59

there's lots of people don't

20:01

know how to best support a

20:03

grieving family or a grieving woman

20:05

or

20:05

whoever it is. Yeah. I

20:09

mean, it's the

20:09

same it goes back to birth.

20:11

It's exhausting. You know, a woman there's

20:13

all this lead up. She then she

20:15

gives birth. And then

20:16

everyone's like, cool. I've seen the baby

20:19

done. Yep. this woman's

20:20

there with this baby, and

20:22

there's there's not

20:23

much education on aftercare, same as

20:25

sex. Yeah. It's all about the big event. And then what

20:27

about the aftercare? Yeah. so

20:30

what

20:32

oh,

20:32

there's so much I could ask you

20:35

in.

20:35

So we've got questions. people have asked

20:37

on Instagram, but I'd like to

20:38

ask what can

20:41

people do

20:43

if they know supporting someone

20:45

who's grieving at the moment or if they're

20:47

grieving themselves, like, what is your biggest

20:50

piece of advice

20:51

or like guidance? You know? I

20:53

know you spoke to Nick when John

20:55

died. And that really helped him kind of

20:58

understand, okay, this is gonna be a process

21:00

and he, you know, you

21:02

encourage him to not go back to work straight

21:04

away to, like, really, like, honor

21:06

this time, which really helped him to go,

21:08

okay, slow, fuck down. Yeah. And

21:10

just be in this. Yeah.

21:12

Is that something you would like more? Yeah.

21:14

I I really feel, you know

21:17

it's a double

21:18

edged sword, you know, because we're all at

21:21

a point you know, with our lifestyles and the

21:23

different things to everybody's so busy.

21:25

Mhmm. And how can I, like, stop

21:27

and have, you know, have take

21:29

this time off, I've got no holidays, you know, and we don't.

21:31

You know, I I mean, we really it does

21:33

need to be written into legislation

21:35

that when, you

21:35

know, same as with birth, which also needs to

21:38

be dramatic improved

21:40

is with death that people

21:41

get a certain amount of, you know, bereavement

21:43

days. What I would

21:45

actually go far is to say, weeks and

21:47

if and or if months

21:49

ideally, you know, it's but

21:52

what what is the most important thing

21:54

I would say? is

21:57

for who

21:59

for

21:59

yourself to find that quiet

22:03

reverence space

22:03

And

22:04

when you're entering into the

22:07

home

22:07

of somebody who's just lost

22:09

their loved one or they're preparing

22:11

to is just by simply

22:13

being

22:13

and less

22:16

is

22:16

more. And sometimes

22:18

there's

22:18

a lot of people that connect

22:20

over talk or over say things. And it can be even

22:22

just doing really subtle practical things

22:24

from food or cleaning or -- Mhmm.

22:26

-- and also just really acknowledging as

22:28

well when you you come

22:30

to that person you say,

22:31

like, I actually don't know what to say

22:34

here. This is, you know, because, you

22:36

know, over the

22:37

next you know, what I see for the next

22:39

probably fifty years is as,

22:41

you know, our death

22:42

culture changes in and improves.

22:45

and more people are doing this and taking,

22:47

you know, taking back

22:49

I I got it taking

22:50

back your dead, which is

22:53

taking back your life. because

22:55

it's yours. Yeah. Even the dead cats

22:57

of it and there's all of

22:58

it, you know, and the people. Mhmm.

23:01

It brings a

23:03

a sense of

23:06

ease

23:06

when you're just in that space.

23:08

So before you walk into the home

23:10

and before you go in, just to

23:12

settle your own heart and just

23:14

to be with whatever could

23:15

be coming up inside of

23:18

you.

23:18

And just

23:20

to gently ride with that person,

23:23

you

23:23

know, and it's every death is different.

23:25

Every person is different. You

23:27

know, I haven't got one like, specific

23:30

things like a formula of, like, doing XYZ

23:32

and -- Yeah. -- guaranteed success. Yeah. Yeah.

23:34

There's no there's not if anything, it's just

23:36

to really come to that

23:37

place of quieting

23:40

yourself and then just coming in

23:42

and then just, you know, also, you know,

23:44

for me, I'll do like a, you

23:46

know, I suppose energetic bodywork

23:48

and different things, especially,

23:50

you know you know, it's always a

23:52

really different voltage and charge

23:54

when it's sudden. death. And --

23:57

Yeah. -- it's, you know, I

23:59

really

23:59

really like like, you

24:01

know,

24:01

Zenith Arago from the natural death care

24:03

center who's been an incredible you

24:05

know, mentor and support and guide for me and

24:07

getting paper

24:08

about going. And, you know,

24:10

I really love the way that,

24:11

you know, there's

24:13

no such thing as accidents.

24:15

And, you know,

24:16

we do die through this adventure.

24:19

And we do die through, you know,

24:21

different ways. But when it is especially

24:24

somebody young and through

24:26

that misadventure, it can be

24:28

such a jarring and shocking moment.

24:30

And it's just you know, I don't

24:31

know. There's just this

24:32

I can't quite find

24:34

a word, but it's Everything stops

24:38

at

24:38

such a rapid rate and that

24:41

shock that sits in is

24:44

profound. Yeah. Yeah.

24:46

Well, you

24:46

you you know,

24:48

people

24:49

go from just say having a

24:51

cup of tea on the couch to getting a phone

24:53

call and the whole life has changed in that moment.

24:55

Yeah.

24:56

Nothing is gonna be the same again

24:59

as well. So, you

25:01

know, speak. You

25:02

know, and it happens. You know,

25:05

it's a part of our lives.

25:07

It's And

25:09

because we've been so removed from

25:11

it for so many years, you

25:14

know, but the more we're coming back into,

25:17

you know, and you

25:17

know which has been great. You know, if you look over the last, like, twenty for

25:20

thirty years, with the whole,

25:22

yeah, I call it, the nature movement and

25:24

everybody getting back more in contact

25:26

with you know,

25:27

earthly rituals and all of those

25:30

sorts of things and, you know, we

25:32

are nature. Mhmm. And nature

25:34

doesn't discriminate.

25:36

Yeah.

25:38

Yeah.

25:38

So I just wanted to ask

25:40

you about,

25:44

like, I feel like in

25:44

our culture correct me if I'm

25:47

wrong, that we die

25:49

and then the body kind of gets

25:51

away and often we never see the body again, or

25:53

for example, in the sudden death, say somebody

25:55

dies in a car accident, we

25:57

hear about it. the body's gone

26:00

and it's put

26:01

in, you know, that goes through the process that

26:03

it's been in a coffin and then

26:05

it's we may see the coffin

26:07

and then it's done. Mhmm.

26:09

But what you encourage

26:11

is for us to see

26:13

the body

26:14

of our loved ones

26:16

-- Yeah. -- understand you know,

26:18

to see and

26:19

spend time. Look,

26:21

in some cases, that may not

26:22

be possible -- Yeah. -- with

26:25

some, you know,

26:26

accidents that could have happened or

26:29

different things. But there are also ways

26:31

of still being able to spend time,

26:33

intend, and and do I

26:35

mean, I don't I won't go into, like,

26:37

all that, you know, I did something.

26:39

My my daughter said something about this,

26:41

like, There's

26:41

such a gory side of what you do. I don't know

26:44

how, you know and and yeah, there

26:46

is, but I I wouldn't call it gore. It's just a

26:48

reality of, you know, some

26:50

things. So for me now, you

26:52

know, two years in and I've, you know, begun and,

26:54

you know, and

26:55

now on my way to doing it.

26:58

fully

26:58

qualified mortician.

27:01

You know,

27:04

I will need to sometimes bring

27:05

the body home. to me, to

27:07

the holding room, and for me to

27:09

tend to and for complex

27:12

cases, I may go up. I I've got a

27:14

great relationship with

27:14

an awesome another mortician up on

27:17

the

27:17

gold coast. Mhmm. And if it's very complex,

27:19

because there's some things that I'm still

27:21

learning. So

27:21

I'll take the bodies to her, and

27:23

she has been, you know, twenty years. Yeah.

27:26

And she's just an incredible

27:28

support for me in space that I use

27:30

and and the space from as well too

27:32

for complex care cases. So

27:34

what's a mortician for those who don't know?

27:36

So a mortician is somebody where

27:38

we tend to the complexities

27:41

of a

27:41

dead body. Okay. And

27:43

or not to it could be just washing

27:45

and dressing,

27:46

but

27:47

you know, there's everything from embalming

27:49

-- Mhmm. -- to, you

27:51

know, reconstructive

27:52

work. Yeah.

27:54

depending on it.

27:55

Yeah. Putting, you know, some people need to be

27:57

put back together a little bit. So we'll do

27:59

that, and

27:59

then we will, you know, do

28:02

certain things to the body where I, you know,

28:04

a half shroud or it may be

28:06

a partial body -- Mhmm. -- you know, it

28:08

sits so then, you know, the family

28:09

can still see and spend some time

28:11

with because

28:12

it's a really common thing that people say that

28:14

they this is I would have to say

28:16

that this is probably the most common thing that

28:18

I hear and speaking to other death workers

28:21

is is I wanna

28:22

remember my person how

28:24

they were the last time I saw them. Mhmm.

28:26

I don't wanna remember them dead.

28:29

Mhmm. And

28:29

what that looks like or what that

28:32

is. And it's a

28:32

very valid thing

28:34

to feel, but

28:36

the

28:36

actual reality of

28:39

that I

28:40

believe

28:41

can actually make for

28:43

far more. I I

28:46

gotta say painful, but

28:48

the processing

28:48

of grief with not actually

28:51

spending time without

28:53

people,

28:53

poll It

28:56

it

28:56

brings a

28:57

different just a

28:59

different edge and I think

29:02

prolongs

29:05

said,

29:05

the pain. The pain and the certain

29:07

I said, I would almost go to say it. It's like

29:09

a certain type of suffering.

29:11

that

29:13

has just got a different volume.

29:16

You know? Yeah.

29:18

And, you know, for some people

29:21

though, it's completely not negotiable.

29:23

That is that there's no way I wanna do

29:25

that. And that is absolutely fine as

29:27

well. Of course. And

29:28

I, you know, I I honor all of the things

29:30

but I also, you know, I am very passionate about,

29:32

you know, the other side of it too. And most

29:34

people who come to me for these services

29:37

do wanna wash

29:39

and tend and have their body

29:41

brought home.

29:42

Like this afternoon, I'm going to bring

29:44

a beautiful dad home to his

29:46

family. you know, he's at that little

29:48

prison

29:48

hospital right now.

29:50

And so I'll pick him up, and then

29:52

I'll bring him straight home.

29:54

She

29:54

doesn't want, you know, he's got a few things happening

29:56

with his body, and I said, I can take him and do

29:58

it. And she's like, no, I wanna do

29:59

it in our home. He's

30:02

mine, where I'm home.

30:04

so good. Yeah.

30:07

And that's also, you know, what I

30:09

would call a very

30:11

I'm not gonna be

30:13

careful to ask because

30:14

I'm being a victim of you that, you know, a very

30:16

conservative straight family that you

30:18

would think. in Caghettino, one of the fans.

30:20

He has a longer

30:21

fans. You know? It's not just, you know,

30:24

you

30:24

know, everybody is doing this. It's

30:26

not, you know, from maybe the more

30:29

alternative like in, you know, where I am on the northern

30:31

rivers in hearing my own bimbi

30:33

environment. But yeah.

30:36

And you know,

30:37

she wants to then do just a one to two day

30:39

vigil and then his body will come into care

30:41

with me. Mhmm. And then his surrogate mother

30:43

is being

30:44

held on Tuesday.

30:46

What's the day today?

30:48

She

30:48

knows Wednesday. Okay. Got

30:50

it. Yeah. Yeah.

30:51

Beautiful. Or I can

30:54

speak personally from Mike's experience

30:56

and that was that when

30:58

we visited

31:00

John's

31:00

body, it was

31:02

the most beautiful experience,

31:05

aside from the birth of my two

31:07

children, the

31:08

most beautiful experience in my life.

31:11

Yeah. Just

31:11

to sit. He was so peaceful. Yeah.

31:13

Smiling. Yeah. He was just

31:16

like and it was just so nice to

31:18

sit with him and he's

31:20

his forehead and hold his hand and just talk

31:22

to him and it's it's his body.

31:24

So, you know, it's just his body, but

31:26

still it was like that was really

31:29

really

31:30

essential for me. I'm

31:32

just gonna speak about my experience. Yeah.

31:35

Because then

31:35

when I think about him and I'm

31:38

like, I can't believe he's gone.

31:40

Like, because it's so recent too.

31:42

And then

31:42

I think that he he's gone. Like, I

31:44

saw his body. Yep.

31:46

he's

31:46

gone. Yeah. Because there can be that

31:49

You kind of we

31:50

hear feeling like,

31:51

no. He's not gone. Yeah.

31:53

Does that take my back muscle back to

31:55

that experience and be like, yeah. And he was smiling and he was, you

31:57

know, he was so peaceful and

32:00

he's most relaxed

32:01

to have seen him. That's for

32:03

sure. Yeah. And that's the thing too, and that's also

32:05

something, you know, that's so important to share

32:07

here too. And when you looked did were you surprised that

32:09

he looked like twenty, thirty years younger? Oh my

32:11

god. I was like, Sean.

32:13

Yeah. I was like, mate, you look so

32:15

young. Where's the wrinkles? I'm

32:18

like, holy mhmm. Yeah.

32:20

Yeah. It is. It it's almost

32:22

like And that's the set and that's the parallel

32:25

between the sex and death.

32:27

Right? Mhmm. When we die

32:29

even even with some of the

32:31

sudden at you know, with that

32:33

misadventure happens, the

32:35

oxytocin that's also released,

32:37

and

32:37

the different things to we actually

32:39

the body in the body of the patient In the

32:41

body yeah. Where? In that point.

32:43

And, you know, especially for people who maybe, you know,

32:45

maybe a slower death. there's

32:48

a bliss and a peace that

32:50

arrives. Mhmm. And then, you

32:52

know, I

32:53

I'm forever blown

32:56

away. Every day I get to see it, you know, it's thing

32:58

that I look at these people and, you know,

33:00

for many I've never seen before, of

33:02

course, but also there's a lot that

33:04

I do know, you know. This is a smaller

33:07

community. So -- Mhmm. -- you know, I've tended

33:09

to many friends and fam you know,

33:11

families' deaths now. And So

33:13

I do know what they were, like, before

33:15

and after, but it's

33:16

something that I always

33:18

hear. So on Monday last week,

33:21

a beautiful daughter. She would

33:23

have been

33:24

I think she was just a bit older than me, like,

33:26

yeah, late late forties.

33:29

and her mom was in her early seventies

33:33

and she came into

33:34

the room and

33:37

she couldn't believe it was her mom.

33:39

Oh, so she was she was so

33:41

sharp. Okay. So she was with the

33:43

body of her Yeah. So she came to sit. Yes. So and I

33:45

had, you know, laid her on that. She wasn't able to

33:48

do a home funeral. So she came in and

33:50

she looked and she was

33:51

just like, She

33:53

had to go up to her. She said, she looks like

33:55

she's twenty. Yeah. You know,

33:57

because all of the lines and all

33:59

of those the holding that we do in that on our physical

34:02

bodies at all releases. Wow.

34:04

You know, all wrinkles go,

34:06

all frown lines, you

34:09

know, and you can often see just with the way that

34:11

the eyes and even the mouth too, like you say

34:13

with John, it's like, we don't make

34:15

them smile. Like, that's a natural

34:17

thing that happens. Like,

34:19

it's just the

34:21

body's

34:22

rested. Yeah. It stopped and it's yeah.

34:24

It's actually yeah. Like you said,

34:26

and it is. It's it's like being in that birth

34:29

window, you know. It's so such a similar

34:30

feeling. Yeah. It was

34:32

so similar. It was like my whole body

34:35

was rushed with

34:37

the

34:37

similar

34:39

laws. Yeah. Amazing.

34:40

And thank you for supporting

34:42

me to do that

34:44

and for, like, for

34:46

supporting

34:47

us as a family and

34:50

encouraging us to do that because that was a

34:52

really

34:52

special moment as a family.

34:54

know that's even for our son to be there

34:56

and see his paw. Yeah.

34:58

Yeah. Thank you.

35:00

You're

35:02

welcome. I have to interrupt

35:03

this episode to let you know that

35:05

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35:52

com. That's JULIET

35:56

hyphen a double LEN

35:58

dot com. Alright. Let's get

36:00

to some questions before. Okay.

36:02

What's that kind? Mhmm. So

36:06

So on

36:06

Instagram, I put a

36:08

call out on my stories and mentioned

36:10

that I was talking

36:12

to you on the podcast.

36:14

I

36:15

got and said any questions. And I thought, no wonder it'll come through,

36:17

you know, maybe nothing. Maybe it'll be,

36:19

like, dead silence. Just

36:21

like, oh, death. but

36:23

people were just like, oh my god. Tell

36:26

me more. I got so many DMs from people

36:28

saying thank you so much. Like, this is

36:30

so needed. So we've

36:32

got lots of questions that we may not get through

36:34

them all. So if you're listening and your question doesn't

36:36

get answered, I'm sorry, but we have, like,

36:38

been inundated. So

36:40

let's just begin.

36:42

Where do you feel

36:44

feel to

36:45

begin? Yeah.

36:46

And we'll begin answering

36:48

questions. And of course,

36:49

you know, if you're listening and you're so

36:51

intrigued and curious about what

36:54

Haiti's doing,

36:56

then reach out

36:57

to Hailey to learn more

37:00

or tell me that you want us to record another

37:02

podcast episode and we'll

37:03

do that. Okay.

37:04

So let's begin. What

37:06

are the

37:07

eco options for our

37:11

funeral and death? What

37:13

I would say

37:15

there with the eco

37:17

is is just you don't

37:19

need to use traditional coffins

37:22

and there's many aspects of that that you just

37:24

don't

37:24

need to go to. So I with

37:26

paper back, I use weaker

37:28

and cardboard coffins -- Mhmm.

37:30

-- and or shroud and shroud bearer. You

37:32

actually don't need to use a

37:35

coffin. Mhmm. Legally in New

37:37

South Wales and Queensland, you do

37:39

have to, but it's you can

37:41

ask for a request from health,

37:42

the health department to,

37:44

yeah, just do

37:45

a shroud

37:46

and a

37:47

shroud bearer, which Well,

37:49

a shroud bearer is basically just a piece of wood that

37:51

the body's put on top of -- Mhmm. --

37:53

and the body has been wrapped

37:56

in fabric. Yeah.

37:57

Okay. Yeah. And just also not

37:59

embalming and not choosing certain

38:02

things that some

38:04

funeral directors may push for, which are unnecessary. So

38:06

these coffin sitting next to us right now

38:08

-- Yeah. -- because believe it or

38:10

not, of course, we're in a

38:12

room with cup ends. Yeah. Are these the wicker ones? Yep. Okay.

38:15

This is what I want. That's my request.

38:17

Like, I die.

38:17

Okay. because these are

38:19

so pretty. Yeah. are really lovely. Mhmm. And they're all,

38:21

you know,

38:21

the thing with these is to, you know, they're hand woven. These

38:24

ones are from Thailand.

38:26

Mhmm. You know, it is

38:29

I have got any future

38:31

dreams of getting them made here, and

38:33

I'll get it off to get

38:34

it happening in a couple of MDG

38:36

communities. That's very beautiful. Yeah. And that's one

38:39

of my, you know, end game things with

38:41

paper boxes to create paper

38:44

back pods. which are like

38:46

twenty twenty foot shipping

38:48

containers that have been converted to go

38:50

out to community

38:50

because, yeah, that's not being

38:53

done great at them. But

38:54

yes. Okay. So

38:57

yeah. Echo

38:57

is yeah. Just looking at all of

38:59

those options and it, you

39:02

know, if you know, your nearest city and someone's past, just

39:04

ask what are the funeral director, whoever you've

39:06

gone with, you know, what are the eco

39:08

options? Yeah. You

39:08

don't need to be spending thousands of

39:11

dollars on coffins, embalming, and

39:13

all of those things. Can

39:15

I ask,

39:15

can we get buried

39:18

in

39:18

our backyard? No.

39:22

You can't. I've been mentally ill. Yeah.

39:24

You can get back buried

39:26

on land in most shires

39:30

in New South Wales. I'm

39:32

not so positive with some for Queensland.

39:34

It

39:35

you have to have, like, a minimum of

39:38

seventeen acres. bomass. And you can't at all in Victoria, which is

39:40

a real issue unless

39:41

there's already a cemetery

39:42

on private

39:43

land. Right. Yeah. Okay.

39:46

Yeah. Cool.

39:46

whoa

39:48

Is dying like

39:50

giving

39:50

birth?

39:51

Very much so.

39:52

It's the two giveans.

39:54

Hey, birth and it is.

39:57

we're all going to be birth if

39:58

we -- Yeah. -- if

39:59

we're if

40:00

we're human being. Yeah. And

40:02

that's where I'd say I was almost like,

40:04

you know, when you're just, like, giving birth

40:06

and in that face and

40:09

that total contraction and

40:11

that really focused

40:14

energy and how important

40:16

it is you know,

40:17

when you're giving birth, you don't want a huge amount of

40:19

people around you. Just kind of want one or two people.

40:21

It's the same thing with death. Some

40:23

people are really okay with her being lots of

40:25

people and they want lots of family around. But

40:28

majority of people really like to pass when

40:30

it's quiet and or when

40:32

everybody's gone out of

40:34

the room. we're interesting. Yeah. And it's the same thing as a

40:36

woman giving birth when there's too

40:38

much going on. It's like

40:40

that

40:41

that slowing less people, less

40:43

pressure, that expectation kind of drops because some people a

40:45

lot of people when they're passing, especially if it's

40:47

a slow death

40:50

And when I say a slow death, that means that there's a there's a terminal

40:52

illness that's happening.

40:54

So, yeah,

40:56

a lot of space is often required

41:00

and needed. for those people. That's like orgasm

41:01

too. Not only. Yeah.

41:04

A lot of

41:05

people need

41:06

the move to

41:08

quiet and

41:09

solitude and space and to

41:12

feel safe -- Yeah. -- and held

41:14

-- Yeah. -- to be able

41:16

to open.

41:18

Yeah.

41:18

This this fits. And just yeah.

41:20

Just to slow it all

41:24

down.

41:26

Should

41:26

we take it in terms of popcorning with these? Yeah.

41:28

For sure. And if there's some that you don't wanna

41:30

add, so we'll just skip over and move over to

41:33

the next one. Okay. Let's do this one. What do you

41:35

think happens when we die? Where do we

41:38

go? The

41:40

big question. the

41:44

greatest unknown. It's a

41:45

mystery. You

41:46

know, for me, it

41:49

changes and morphs every week. you

41:51

know, what I believe. It's not that I actually have like a solid belief

41:53

is what happens. I suppose

41:56

that one unique thing about me is is I

41:58

believe

41:59

that through and solve two separate things -- Mhmm. -- whereas

42:02

people have, like, merge them as one --

42:04

Yes. -- because I think that that operates as two

42:06

different

42:06

things. do you

42:08

want it briefly? Yeah. For me, it's like the spirit

42:11

is contained. Like, we've

42:13

got our host. I

42:16

bought our skin bag of bones.

42:18

Yeah. Yeah. And then

42:20

the life force that's contained within it

42:22

can has a spirit and a

42:24

soul. So it's almost like

42:27

the spirit is from like our thighs.

42:29

Okay. If we look and go

42:30

up -- Yep. -- and that

42:33

goes

42:33

up into the ethereal, world into into the cosmos. And

42:35

then the soul is on the lower. So

42:37

it's like maybe from

42:38

like a neck and chest down.

42:41

Our hearts contained within both. Mhmm. And

42:44

they're both operating together.

42:46

Mhmm. And it explains to me

42:48

a lot of things like to do with dream

42:52

world to do with reenconation and different

42:54

things that we're seeing, the studies that are being

42:56

done there and, you know, the fascinating

42:58

thing around children that are, like, three and four

43:00

years old that are recounting these things

43:02

that they've had

43:02

no exposure to. Mhmm. You

43:04

know, all of those things.

43:06

But I would It also explains to me,

43:08

you know, I don't know, there's just something that feels

43:10

right for me within that, that

43:13

there's two

43:13

separate parts And

43:15

then when we

43:17

pass,

43:17

the soul kinda continues, like,

43:20

we're star dust. Right? Mhmm. Mhmm. Just

43:22

all that. but the spirit actually

43:24

travels and traverses into the unknown. And

43:26

I've got no idea what that is. Yeah. I

43:29

don't have a concept of I

43:32

definitely would say that I believe in a in a

43:34

higher power, in a higher

43:36

energetic force in within the cosmos and

43:38

within nature.

43:40

Mhmm. but I also

43:41

feel that it's something that, you know, humans have just got no idea

43:44

about. Yeah. I don't think there's any

43:46

single truth.

43:46

I mean Oh, yeah.

43:50

think there's a truth then. Yeah. Yeah.

43:52

There's, you

43:52

know, I guess, we all have

43:54

our different beliefs around them.

43:57

All I know that for me, if there is a

43:59

truth in it, that

43:59

it's energy and it's

44:02

frequency. And

44:04

Dead

44:04

is not dead. No. Yeah. It's you know, and that's

44:06

for me too where I'm so passionate about

44:10

honoring the bodies,

44:11

you know, because some people, you know, you're a lot of

44:14

people say, well, I'm

44:16

I'm

44:16

dead. Doesn't matter. Yeah.

44:18

you know, it's just like, that's it. That's minor. Yeah. You know,

44:20

that's just like, well, no. I I hear what you're kinda saying,

44:23

where you're grasping with that, but it's

44:25

like, well, your physical bodies still

44:27

here. Mhmm. You know, like, you know, you're laughing at

44:30

people that haven't got their wills done or their

44:32

advanced care directives or done any

44:34

sort of you know,

44:36

prethought to what's to come. It's just

44:38

like, oh, my family will deal with that. It doesn't

44:40

matter. I don't care. Are you

44:41

aware of that? Yeah. because I'm

44:43

dead. I'm, yeah. It's just

44:44

like, well, no. You're actually not

44:46

dead to the people that have been left behind. That's

44:48

always you're always gonna be there.

44:51

Mhmm. And that love. and

44:53

how we honor your body and

44:56

that ceremony

44:59

is how We

45:01

live life. It's just like

45:02

our

45:03

relationship with death and sex

45:06

is the exact same

45:07

as life. Right? Mhmm. So

45:10

you're putting

45:11

together an advanced care

45:14

directive

45:14

guide. What is it?

45:15

No. So an advanced care directive,

45:18

every state

45:20

in a Australia. And in America and

45:21

in

45:22

other countries have has got what's called

45:24

an advanced care directive. And it

45:26

is something that the government actually

45:29

put which is a series of

45:32

questions for what you want to have happened

45:34

when you are dying. Oh,

45:36

when you

45:36

are dying. Well, you're dying. Yes.

45:39

in case that you're unable to

45:40

make any decisions, you've

45:42

actually got it in writing. No, I don't

45:44

want to be revived. No, I don't

45:46

want to have that treatment. So it's just to have

45:48

that really clearly done. So

45:50

it's a really wise idea to have

45:52

that attached to your will. Okay. But

45:54

I am in the process of

45:57

completing, which has been a long gone out of

45:59

event, I have to say.

46:02

But we're gonna get it done. Yeah. We're

46:04

gonna get it done. is it's

46:06

it's deaf and ceremony wishes.

46:08

Yeah. So it's a it's a series of

46:10

questions and information for people to

46:12

really think about and ponder in

46:14

preparing for and you pass.

46:16

Mhmm. And for me, I like to describe

46:18

it as it's like it's it's one of the last

46:20

gifts you're actually gonna give your family.

46:22

That's a beautiful for putting it --

46:24

Yeah. -- because it's actually handwritten, you can

46:26

do it on the computer first, but I really

46:28

suggest people print it out -- Mhmm. -- handwrite

46:30

it, and I've also got, like, some suggestions

46:32

in there. you're writing letters, some letters, some sneaky letters to your

46:34

people. So when they go to open your will

46:36

and to do and have to go through all of

46:38

your

46:39

things, you've

46:41

got a little gift there.

46:43

Mhmm. And it's just

46:44

Yeah. And do that whether you're dying

46:46

on you. You know, totally.

46:47

I think for me, this document,

46:50

everybody needs

46:50

to do from, like, sixteen years of

46:52

age. Yeah. Wow.

46:53

So with that said, it's not

46:55

ready yet, but perhaps by the time

46:57

this is published, it will

47:00

be And if it isn't, it will be soon. Yes. So if

47:02

you're keen to get hold of that

47:04

document and begin preparing

47:06

for your own death, what's

47:09

your website? We'll say it again at the end, but

47:11

just so people, like, oh my god. I need to go do that

47:13

now. Yeah. Sure. So it's paper bark. It's in

47:15

the tree, paper bark.

47:18

Mhmm. Death care dot com and then

47:19

also on Instagram

47:20

paper back death care.

47:22

And the reason I called paper back

47:25

paper back is For

47:27

tens of thousands of years, the paper bark

47:30

tree has been used in birth

47:32

and

47:32

death. You know, the skin

47:34

was peeled and we would wrap and

47:37

newborn, so we would wrap up dead. You

47:38

know? And for me, it's just it also

47:40

symbolizes, you know, a

47:42

tree is just such

47:43

a symbolic thing

47:46

as you know, the cycle of life and of death and for a pig Just

47:48

how that skin peels. You

47:50

know, and that's just like us,

47:51

you know, having this

47:54

human

47:54

experience.

47:56

Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. I love that

47:58

name. Such

47:59

great questions.

47:59

Okay. Let's do another

48:04

one. Okay. So choose one of those and then we'll keep going because we do have a bit of

48:06

a okay. How how

48:07

to prepare for the death of

48:09

a terminally ill

48:12

lava.

48:12

And I will

48:13

add in their child more

48:15

lovedong and because it's the

48:17

same kind of thing.

48:20

It's

48:21

the slowing

48:22

down of everything

48:25

and

48:25

really creating

48:28

that

48:29

time and space and that window to just

48:31

be

48:32

the there to

48:34

if you can the time

48:36

off work -- Mhmm. -- and to do

48:38

those things and to really go in and

48:40

just to do and be and say

48:42

all the things that you may not

48:45

have and just

48:46

really I kind

48:48

of caught it.

48:50

It's it

48:52

he will gets you real.

48:54

and

48:55

all of those around

48:57

you for some,

49:00

you know, putting

49:00

in place much like we do

49:03

with birth. meal rosters, all the

49:05

the

49:05

practical things that we've

49:07

gotta do

49:08

to, you know,

49:10

to check

49:11

all of that out and delegate as much out. There's

49:13

usually always somebody in the family or the PEV that

49:15

loves to organize that and

49:17

so to just really hand over

49:19

that. I'm just doing it. Like a meal Totally. I think that

49:22

practical help

49:22

is so valuable in birth

49:25

and in death. Yeah. Yeah.

49:27

Having people just bring nourishing meals.

49:29

Yeah. I know that's how I'm best supporting

49:32

me right now -- Yeah. -- is to

49:33

make sure that our house

49:36

is stocked full of really good quality food and that every day I'm

49:38

taking time out -- Yeah. --

49:40

to make us a nourishing meal

49:42

because that's supporting him

49:44

-- Yeah. -- to let nourish his

49:46

body -- Yeah. -- to be able to slow down

49:48

and to be able to process.

49:50

Yeah. And I

49:52

think that Yeah. Those types of practical things can often be

49:54

mixed. The next thing

49:56

I would say for that is movement.

49:58

So,

50:00

you know, if possible for

50:01

if you're either the support worker and or

50:04

the

50:04

person that is

50:06

you know, about to you know, I love how round does this So preparing

50:08

to drop their body. That's cool.

50:11

Yeah. I love him. Yeah.

50:13

And to just to

50:15

even to just gently rock or to

50:18

move. But walking in nature is really

50:20

important for all support people --

50:22

Mhmm.

50:22

-- and in ad music.

50:25

Yeah.

50:26

He's really also

50:29

very vital. And I'm a

50:31

big believer in, you know, dance or

50:33

slow

50:33

movement, but especially as the

50:36

the window is really

50:38

nearing for

50:39

the support people uses. I'm a really big

50:41

believer in getting down on all fours. Mhmm. So even that if

50:43

you look up on Spotify, there's some great,

50:45

you know, Vegas

50:48

nerve sounding or any of those sorts of

50:50

things, anything to do with your adrenals and

50:52

that central nervous system, music.

50:56

and being on all falls and rocking letting your body

50:59

really subtly move to that and

51:01

giving yourself at least twenty

51:04

minutes of that a

51:05

day. Mhmm. I'm I'm a

51:07

be

51:07

believer in that more so

51:09

than I am meditation.

51:12

Yeah. Because

51:12

especially within the death portal

51:15

because

51:15

movement's really like, because there's

51:18

so much stillness in it and being sitting

51:20

in it and it's, you

51:22

know, it can get really

51:24

heavy and weighs down. So just

51:26

that light movement

51:28

is

51:29

vital.

51:31

and

51:31

then also seeking out for whoever

51:33

the person is that's passing all

51:35

for yourself.

51:38

People that

51:38

have got something that you are

51:40

very intrigued by spiritually.

51:43

What to come and support

51:44

you here or to reach out forth.

51:47

It might be the time where you'll start reaching for

51:49

certain books. Or there's usually someone or

51:51

an elder in

51:52

your community -- Mhmm. --

51:53

that has

51:56

a certain

51:57

way of being in the world or

51:59

a

51:59

spiritual path or another

52:00

thing. So it's really important to

52:03

throw the lasso out to there

52:05

and just say,

52:06

you know, actually, you know, can we

52:08

spend some time together? Yeah.

52:11

yeah Yeah. I

52:12

know you don't like to call yourself

52:14

averse. No. A death too well. I was

52:15

gonna go death too

52:18

well.

52:18

But

52:19

hum

52:21

What would you like,

52:23

what Well, I like I've

52:25

noticed a lot of people are now suddenly going,

52:27

oh, I'm a deaf fool, and I'm a deaf fool,

52:29

and I'm doing it all Yeah.

52:31

But it's a Neo

52:34

centric, Just like

52:36

every month is a freaking -- Yeah.

52:38

-- your name got us right now, whatever.

52:40

colors or whatever. But what would

52:42

you say about people who do come

52:44

into homes and kind of support

52:48

families with people who are dying

52:50

or someone who's died. Mhmm. Like, I know that's

52:52

something you do. Like, you know, a family could

52:54

contact you who have

52:56

Yeah. Family member who's dying with slow

52:58

death or has

52:58

perhaps come home to die. Yeah.

53:02

What what

53:03

what is that? Like,

53:03

I can see the value in that. It's like having

53:06

a birthday. It's like having a dole in your

53:08

pregnant. Yeah. You can have a woman who -- Yeah. --

53:10

comes and

53:12

just gently pontoon

53:12

to you, as we would say, and this holds

53:14

you and -- Yeah. -- and nurtures

53:16

you. Is that what it is?

53:19

Yeah. You know, people often say, oh, so you're a deaf

53:22

doer, and I'm like, well, yeah, I you

53:24

know, like, I'm a I'm a mixed bag of

53:26

lollipops.

53:26

You always

53:29

have

53:29

been. And, you know, I

53:32

yes. There is, you know, doolering in

53:34

there, but I wouldn't ever refer to

53:36

my self as a doula

53:39

-- Mhmm. -- whereas a

53:41

home funeral guy, you know, and

53:43

I do is what I -- Yeah. -- I would say that

53:45

I do. But there definitely is.

53:48

But I also believe that, you

53:50

know, I make that smart ass comment about

53:52

everybody being these things

53:54

that, you know, we're all born doers.

53:56

Mhmm. Everybody is. Mhmm. And,

53:58

like, with birth and with death, it's a

53:59

rite a rite of passage of

54:02

passage. And

54:02

I believe deaf work, it finds you.

54:05

It's not something that you seek out.

54:07

I love that you're saying this because

54:09

one of the questions was how

54:11

can I get into death work?

54:14

Yeah. So let's let's go there for a

54:16

moment. And I think this also

54:18

relates

54:18

to birth work. Yeah.

54:21

similar

54:21

again. Yeah. So keep going. Yeah.

54:23

And look, this could this is probably gonna

54:26

and it is this is gonna be quite judgmental of

54:28

what I'm about to say. So this is

54:30

a truth for me and with what

54:32

I It's your opinion. Yeah. And, you know, what's the thing? Opinion's

54:34

are like assholes. Everyone's got what?

54:40

So

54:40

here's my personal feeling intake on this

54:42

one with Deborah everyday in my

54:45

DMs, on Instagram, emails,

54:47

people are wanting to

54:48

come and volunteer or

54:50

do and how

54:51

can I get in and do this work?

54:53

And what I, you know, for some, there's a

54:55

genuine, I can feel that that thread is

54:57

there, that that's like It's been

54:59

woven over a certain amount of

55:02

death experiences so far.

55:04

Mhmm. But it is. It's a rite

55:06

of passage and it's something that seeks

55:08

you out. It's like a calling

55:10

and it's like this thing that

55:13

happens. It's it's

55:14

ancestral. It's big. Like, oh,

55:16

you know, sometimes I, you know, I I

55:19

get through a day and I'm like, well, how did I even do a manual? And it's

55:20

just something I didn't

55:22

even feel like I was working. I didn't feel

55:24

I think when you're in full service,

55:27

to the thing that you've come here to do. It's just like

55:29

an effortless

55:30

grace that happens.

55:34

And right

55:34

now because there is a ground swell in

55:37

death care and, you know, it's kind

55:39

of a cool and hip place

55:42

to be. I

55:43

I mean, I hate to say it like I hate to

55:45

say it, but it feels like it

55:47

can't Yeah. Yeah. And

55:50

what I say to that is

55:53

you

55:53

know, it'll

55:54

it happens. It just it's a naturally

55:56

occurring thing that will

55:58

take over you.

56:00

and

56:01

it can only happen when you've actually been

56:03

experiencing the deaths. Mhmm. Same thing as as,

56:05

you know, with midwives and with

56:07

do birth dolers.

56:10

you know, I you

56:11

know, I'm a big

56:12

believer. You know, I I understand people

56:14

have the, you know, the pull to

56:16

it and that the the curiosity, but

56:19

not until you've actually given birth

56:22

or until

56:23

you have actually held your loved one

56:25

or held your mother and your grandmother in

56:27

your arms after that. past --

56:29

Yeah. -- that you can fully feel -- Yeah. -- that

56:31

you are gonna have in your

56:34

marrow what is needed

56:36

to actually be

56:37

and walking into the homes people

56:39

who have just lost a lot of

56:41

accent

56:41

and just that birth who have just passed.

56:44

Yeah. I mean, it's I don't even like to use the

56:46

word lost or have had their

56:48

person par. pass, you

56:50

know, it's just as and it's like when I'm

56:52

opening up, you know, the corridors and

56:54

I'm preparing the body

56:56

stretcher to wheel that person in.

56:58

you know, it's I

57:00

can only do what I'm doing because

57:02

of the deaths that I've experienced so

57:04

far in my life.

57:06

Yeah. Yeah.

57:09

And yeah. So that's what I

57:11

would say to

57:11

that. I mean, I still think there's some really great

57:14

courses and

57:16

things people can do and to learn and know what to do for themselves when

57:18

the time comes. Mhmm. But

57:20

actually doing this as

57:22

your work or

57:24

your service

57:24

you Yeah. It'll

57:26

come to you. It it you

57:28

know, it it's almost

57:29

like for me, it got to the point where

57:31

I had no choice but

57:33

to listen. Yeah. and I pushed

57:35

it away and I avoided it for for so long. Mhmm. And then,

57:37

yeah, none passing and all of the things that

57:40

happened. It was just

57:42

like,

57:42

okay.

57:43

a

57:44

surrender. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

57:46

Mhmm. k. Let's

57:47

answer some more

57:48

more questions. I'm aware that we

57:52

are Let's have a look for the time. Oh, we've got a bit more

57:54

time. Okay.

57:56

Let me look at these ones that you

57:58

had.

58:00

This is

58:00

a good one. What do you

58:02

suggest for for major fear

58:05

or crippling fear of death

58:07

and dying?

58:07

This is so

58:09

big. It

58:11

is a

58:12

big one. Well, for

58:14

me, it's not about the death.

58:17

It's about

58:19

life. You

58:20

know? And it's, I

58:23

think, really,

58:23

again, slowing down and

58:25

sitting back into this face

58:28

of who am

58:29

I? Where am

58:31

I

58:31

going? What am I

58:33

doing with my life? What am

58:35

I in service to? Yeah. And I think that's

58:37

a really important one

58:38

because we can spend a

58:40

lot of time naval gazing.

58:42

and in the fears

58:44

and in all of the different things, but it's

58:46

like actually just going back and, you know,

58:48

we've all got to do major work -- Mhmm. --

58:50

and go through all the things and it's

58:53

a daily pack. actors -- Yeah. -- to be on

58:55

a, you know, a path of,

58:57

you know, not living in

58:59

triggers and reactiveness. Yeah.

59:02

And So that's the that's the place to start is to just going

59:04

back into who am I and

59:06

what have I come

59:07

here to do. And then fucking

59:09

doing it. Yeah.

59:12

you know,

59:13

it's so you're saying that you feel like people have a fear of

59:15

dying because they have a fear of dying.

59:17

Yeah. And living. And

59:20

perhaps then perhaps not

59:22

relieving to

59:23

their fullest. So they're totally

59:26

Yes. You know, we're all culturally,

59:28

societyally. Like,

59:30

we're pushed you know, if we allow ourselves into a corner

59:32

of what we should be and what

59:34

is expected

59:36

of us. you know,

59:38

and

59:38

is that true -- Mhmm.

59:40

-- for you? Mhmm. And

59:42

these

59:42

are, like, really big questions that can also

59:44

spiral a whole other thing. But I

59:47

think if if you're somebody that does have a fear

59:49

of death or dying and, you know,

59:51

losing your your your

59:53

favorite people and even your own death -- Mhmm.

59:55

-- it would be to ask yourself those questions.

59:57

Mhmm. And and seek

1:00:00

support,

1:00:00

like, I know that, you know,

1:00:04

if this is a big thing for your listening, you're like, shit, that's me.

1:00:06

Like, I am just crippled with fear around my

1:00:08

own death or perhaps the death of my parents

1:00:12

or whatever. seek some support, like find a a

1:00:14

therapist or or somebody

1:00:15

-- Yeah. -- to speak

1:00:16

to, you can help you work through

1:00:20

what it is and then peel back the onion layer so

1:00:22

to speak and go, okay, what is it? That

1:00:26

is is creating

1:00:27

that fear -- Mhmm. --

1:00:29

that is crippling

1:00:32

because it's

1:00:32

a big one. And I think it's really

1:00:34

common to It is, you know, but there's also

1:00:36

that, you know, just to bring in, I suppose, the

1:00:39

sex and death thing to to

1:00:41

that point. It's like,

1:00:43

You

1:00:43

know, the quality of our orgasm is the

1:00:45

quality of our life. Mhmm. Quality of

1:00:47

our life is

1:00:48

a quality about

1:00:50

death. and we

1:00:50

die, how we live. Oh my god. That could be

1:00:52

the name of this episode. The

1:00:54

quality of our

1:00:55

life is the quality

1:00:57

of our death. What

1:00:59

what

1:00:59

was it? Yeah. Quality of The the

1:01:02

quality of our orgasm

1:01:03

-- Yeah. --

1:01:05

is the barometer the quality of

1:01:07

our life.

1:01:08

That's the next episode together. The

1:01:09

quality of our life is the quality of

1:01:11

our

1:01:11

death. We die. How

1:01:14

we live.

1:01:15

you know, you'll often hear people who

1:01:17

have, you know, died from, you know,

1:01:19

the misadventures.

1:01:20

It's like, oh, that's so perfect.

1:01:22

Yeah. you know, it does go into

1:01:24

gray area though, and I will acknowledge

1:01:26

that, you know, within other ones, with

1:01:28

terminal things

1:01:29

and young parents

1:01:32

and children. I'm not sure what's there, but I also

1:01:34

can see even in those young

1:01:36

deaths. There is still

1:01:39

a magic. and there

1:01:41

is still something there and I can't put my

1:01:43

finger on it or I can't make it

1:01:45

okay or do you know? I'm not meaning to do that,

1:01:47

but what I am saying that

1:01:50

there's that life force is there in

1:01:52

that death. Oh, am I making

1:01:55

sense? Kinda. Yes.

1:01:58

It might

1:01:58

make sense to people -- Yeah. --

1:01:59

have been through that journey

1:02:01

of death, the death of, say,

1:02:03

a young,

1:02:05

a child or

1:02:08

teenager or or, you know Yeah.

1:02:10

I think if

1:02:12

you're in the

1:02:12

thick of it, perhaps not. And then what are you talking

1:02:14

about? Yeah. But if it's years they might be like,

1:02:16

I get it. Yeah. And that's where it

1:02:18

really comes back down to, you know, a game

1:02:20

where I say, you know, it's it's

1:02:23

a you know, we are nature. And

1:02:24

if we look at nature and how it

1:02:27

works, we die on such

1:02:29

a scope of ages. And

1:02:32

we've all got this illusion that

1:02:33

we're gonna die when we get

1:02:36

older.

1:02:36

Mhmm. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:38

That's

1:02:38

just not the case. Some of

1:02:41

us are short been. Yeah.

1:02:42

And some are long and

1:02:43

some are, you know, I was listening

1:02:45

to around us the

1:02:47

other day, and he was saying he's put

1:02:48

it so beautifully, and I am not gonna

1:02:51

do it

1:02:51

any justice. But he was

1:02:53

saying that when our

1:02:55

souls work is

1:02:55

complete. Like, it's it's

1:02:57

done. Whereas at personality, you know, it's

1:03:00

gonna wanna live on and on. Yeah.

1:03:02

But

1:03:02

it's like, it could be just

1:03:04

two years

1:03:05

of life that we have, and then our soul

1:03:07

was like, I'm done here. I'm moving

1:03:09

on. Yeah. It really

1:03:11

actually was great. I've

1:03:12

listened to lots of Rhonda's next really into Rhonda. So often I'll

1:03:14

jump in the

1:03:15

car and he's just like playing the

1:03:17

same thing over and over. But every time

1:03:19

you get something different --

1:03:22

Yeah. But, yeah, that was really helped me actually. I was like, oh, yeah.

1:03:24

He's like, John's soul is

1:03:26

journey was

1:03:27

done. I think he's wrapped up. He's like, oh,

1:03:30

I'm out. like,

1:03:32

his personality would

1:03:32

have been like, no. I need to stay with my family.

1:03:34

And, you know, what about my grandchildren? Always seems

1:03:37

that he was like, mom. And

1:03:39

that's so simply something else I will say before we do we're not gonna do

1:03:41

any

1:03:41

more questions now. I

1:03:43

don't know.

1:03:44

Okay. I

1:03:47

just wanna say that point, you know, it's just like we do, you

1:03:49

know, again, we drop the body --

1:03:50

Mhmm. -- and it is

1:03:52

where

1:03:53

how important if there

1:03:55

is something that you can also do for your

1:03:58

people as they're passing --

1:03:59

Mhmm. -- is

1:03:59

to also let them know

1:04:01

that you're okay.

1:04:03

and you're okay

1:04:04

with them going.

1:04:07

You

1:04:08

are gonna miss them and you're

1:04:10

gonna the

1:04:11

longing is gonna be in the love, but

1:04:13

it's just like just to tell them

1:04:15

that it's okay. Yeah. And even if

1:04:17

you're not okay with saying that, and say,

1:04:19

I'm not okay saying this, but I want you to

1:04:22

know what's okay. Yeah.

1:04:24

That's beautiful. because that

1:04:25

really shifts

1:04:28

something for the

1:04:28

person who's passing because there is depend you

1:04:30

know, in certain deaths. And, you know, if

1:04:32

they are a younger terminal and

1:04:35

at this. There's a whole thing because they feel like they shouldn't go

1:04:37

for their family. Yeah.

1:04:39

Mhmm.

1:04:40

Yeah. So that's

1:04:43

something

1:04:43

to really remember

1:04:45

at that time.

1:04:47

Perhaps

1:04:47

that's an nice way

1:04:49

to end this. And

1:04:51

then I feel like there's gonna be part two --

1:04:53

Yeah. -- because there's so many questions there. So

1:04:55

it's a good excuse

1:04:56

for us to spend time together.

1:04:58

And it may not be in this season. It may be in next season,

1:05:01

but yeah. Because we'll keep

1:05:03

those questions

1:05:03

and

1:05:06

yeah. Maybe

1:05:07

you could address some of them on Instagram too. Yeah. Right.

1:05:09

Yeah. So okay. Thank you.

1:05:12

You're welcome.

1:05:14

people

1:05:14

wanna find you, let's just go over your

1:05:16

website and your Instagram.

1:05:18

If

1:05:19

they're curious, yes. So

1:05:22

papermark death care insta

1:05:24

and papermark death care

1:05:27

dot com website. Great.

1:05:28

And hopefully, by the time this is

1:05:30

published,

1:05:30

you will have that

1:05:32

Mhmm. What's it called again? What are you going

1:05:34

for? I probably will change the name of

1:05:37

again. Yeah. But it's just it's your death

1:05:39

and ceremony wishes. Yeah. And it's a document,

1:05:41

you know, it's a gift for your

1:05:43

family. One of the last ones and

1:05:46

it

1:05:46

is just it eases a

1:05:48

certain level of burden for them.

1:05:50

Mhmm. because they can just open

1:05:52

it up

1:05:53

and it's just you know, everything's in there that's

1:05:55

needed for when we pass. Mhmm. because often

1:05:57

people go into mad scramble,

1:05:59

don't

1:05:59

know where

1:06:02

anything is hertz and everybody forgets all the things from

1:06:04

passwords to closing things down

1:06:06

to doing

1:06:07

yeah. It's

1:06:09

a big journey.

1:06:10

the picture when

1:06:12

somebody dies and what comes after and then all the other things too.

1:06:14

So this is a document that's just designed

1:06:16

to map all of that art in

1:06:19

a way that is

1:06:21

really personal and honors what your specific wishes are.

1:06:23

Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Yeah. Thank

1:06:25

you so much. To

1:06:29

finish this episode of

1:06:31

Authentic Sex, I really

1:06:34

wanted to read

1:06:35

a beautiful roomy

1:06:38

poem that I found

1:06:39

and loved and I read at the funeral of

1:06:41

my beautiful father-in-law

1:06:44

John. It's

1:06:47

called on the day I die. And I just wanted to leave this

1:06:49

episode with this poem because I

1:06:51

just found it so

1:06:54

beautiful. On the day I

1:06:56

die. On the day I

1:06:58

die when I'm

1:06:59

being carried toward the

1:07:02

grave,

1:07:02

don't we don't weep. Don't say he's

1:07:04

gone. He's gone.

1:07:06

Death has nothing

1:07:06

to do with going away. The

1:07:09

sun sets and the moon sets,

1:07:11

but they're not gone. death

1:07:13

is a

1:07:14

coming together. The tomb

1:07:16

looks like a prison, but it's really

1:07:19

released into union. The human seed goes down in

1:07:21

the ground like a bucket into the well where Joseph

1:07:24

is. It grows and

1:07:26

comes up

1:07:26

full of some unimagined

1:07:29

beauty. Your

1:07:31

mouth closes here and immediately opens with a shout

1:07:33

of joy there. That

1:07:36

is a beautiful

1:07:37

poem by Brumi.

1:07:40

Thank you for listening to

1:07:41

this episode of the Authentic Sex

1:07:44

podcast. If you love the

1:07:46

show, please head on over to

1:07:48

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1:07:50

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1:07:52

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1:07:54

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1:07:58

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1:08:00

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1:08:02

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1:08:05

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1:08:07

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1:08:09

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1:08:12

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1:08:15

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1:08:17

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1:08:22

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