0:03

The Ethereum ETF is coming. So what is

0:05

the best narrative for ETH, at least for

0:07

TradFi, for Wall Street? Welcome to

0:10

another Bankless Takes. David, we're going to have

0:12

a pitch off today. What's in store for

0:14

today's episode? We're going to do what I

0:16

think Bankless does best, which is help define,

0:18

help shape the narrative for ETH. But this

0:20

time for an audience that we don't typically

0:22

talk to when we pitch ETH. We have,

0:24

I think, previously talked about how to pitch

0:27

ETH to the crypto native, to the people

0:29

who really get it. But

0:31

what about the people who just want to understand

0:33

why they should buy the Ethereum ETF,

0:36

which means they're not taking self-custody. They

0:38

don't necessarily appreciate the value of self-custody.

0:40

They also have a very diversified portfolio,

0:43

and they're generally from an older generation.

0:45

So how do we pitch ETH to

0:47

these people, these cohort of what is

0:50

a very large investor base? We're going

0:52

to discuss on the episode the seven

0:54

different leading ETH narratives, and then Ryan

0:57

and I are going to have a

0:59

competition where each one of us

1:01

has presented a pitch that

1:03

we are going to pitch to each other and

1:05

also you, the bankless nation, and then bankless citizens

1:08

get a role here. You guys, if you are

1:10

a bankless citizen, you get to vote on

1:13

who had the better pitch. Winner

1:15

gets bragging rights, which I'm

1:17

sure you're familiar what bragging rights are, but bragging

1:20

rights is also a one of

1:22

one POEP NFT that we're going to

1:24

make our designers currently designing,

1:27

and either Ryan or I will

1:29

be the holder of the bragging

1:31

rights POEP NFT as a result

1:33

of the bankless citizens vote. I

1:36

would like to say, speaking from how I

1:38

feel, I do not want to be the

1:41

non-holder of the bragging rights POEP. I would like to

1:43

be the holder of the bragging rights POEP. That's just

1:45

how I feel. David, not going to lie, man, I'm

1:47

a little bit nervous coming to this episode because I've

1:50

seen you train for fights before. All right. I

1:53

saw you train for your Nick Carter fight and it was

1:55

like day and night for like months getting like beat up

1:57

in the gym, like coming on these

1:59

episodes. and beaten so God knows

2:01

what you had to do in order to

2:03

construct this e-narrative pitch. I prepared mine, full

2:06

disclosure, I prepared mine about an hour before

2:08

we started recording because I procrastinated. Ryan is

2:10

a last minute homework. I

2:13

left at the very last minute. I thought it

2:15

would be easy, but it's hard. It's actually hard

2:17

to get a simple coherent one to two minute

2:19

pitch down for e through the asset.

2:21

It's kind of like there's so many things you can

2:24

say about Ethereum. That is the art of this.

2:27

This actually goes back all the way

2:29

to I think a tweet that really

2:31

inspired this whole thing from Eric Balochunis

2:33

who tweeted out, one of the challenges

2:35

for Ether ETFs penetrating the 60 former

2:37

boomer world is distilling its purpose and

2:39

value in an easy to understand soundbite,

2:41

a la Bitcoin is digital gold. Does

2:44

a simple one liner exist like that

2:46

for Ether? What is the Bitcoin is

2:48

digital gold one liner for Ether? Now

2:51

this is we're going to give a 60 second pitch,

2:53

so much more than a one liner.

2:56

This is the beauty of Bitcoin. I

2:58

also think the beauty of Ethereum is

3:00

that Bitcoin is so trivially easy to

3:02

understand that you can put it into

3:04

a one line soundbite and Ethereum is

3:06

so incredibly expansive that you kind of

3:08

need a 60 second pitch. We're doing

3:11

the 60 second pitch format here today.

3:13

David, is your hope though that we

3:15

can get this to one sentence soundbite

3:17

because you sort of need to in

3:19

order for a meme to travel like

3:21

one single line? I

3:23

think the Ethereum one single line

3:25

comes from a more general broad

3:28

understanding of what Ethereum is. Does

3:32

the internet have one single line? I'm not

3:34

sure it does. Good retort. That's

3:36

just because like everyone knows what the internet

3:39

is. Yeah. And I'll say that

3:41

going into this episode, I think that there

3:43

will be eras or seasons where different lines

3:45

are more applicable than others. So

3:47

in the 1990s internet, when you're trying to

3:49

explain the concept, you might have said something

3:51

like the internet is e-commerce, right? And that

3:54

would have been accurate and that would have

3:56

been one sliver of it, but obviously just

3:58

a small segment of the total value that's

4:00

in the internet. the internet would eventually drive.

4:02

And the internet became kind of like a

4:04

bundle of multiple different use cases. I

4:07

see this very similarly with Ethereum, where there

4:09

will be areas where one

4:12

meme or one one-liner works and

4:14

that will fade out and another will supersede it or

4:18

that will fade into the background and like we'll

4:20

have different narratives every couple of

4:22

years. In fact, David, that's actually been a Bitcoiner

4:25

charge, like Bitcoin Maxwell is charge of Ethereum

4:27

over the ages, which I think

4:29

is somewhat interesting, which is like, you guys

4:31

keeps changing your narrative. I thought it was

4:33

this and now it's this. And

4:36

I think the answer to that is mostly no,

4:38

it is that and it is also this. Yes

4:41

and it's yes and so

4:44

the pursuit of defining all of the narrative started

4:46

with a tweet where I labeled some of the

4:48

first four that came to my head. Digital

4:51

oil, internet bond, programmable money, tokenization platform.

4:53

These are definitely some of the narratives

4:55

that we've put out here at Bankless.

4:58

And then after this tweet, I went on a

5:00

hunt for even further validation of some

5:02

of these same narratives and also adding new

5:04

ones into this list. So I've come up

5:07

with seven different perspectives, seven

5:09

different angles. It's really six and a

5:11

half of ways of

5:13

viewing Ether, the asset and in

5:15

no particular order. But

5:17

I did start with Ethereum as

5:19

a tokenization platform first, because I

5:21

want to introduce that one as

5:23

one of the most new and

5:25

novel perspectives of the ETH pitch.

5:28

When you and I would write the ETH pitch,

5:30

Ryan, we wouldn't really talk about Ethereum as a

5:33

tokenization platform, because if you're going

5:35

to sell Ether, it's weird to start talking about

5:37

Ethereum. You and I have been so focused on

5:39

Ether, the asset, but I

5:41

don't think that nuance really matters if

5:43

you only have 60 seconds. So talking

5:45

about what Ethereum does and talking

5:48

about what its native currency, Ether is, almost

5:51

anonymous for people who are actually kind of

5:53

a naive to the fact that there is

5:55

a difference there. Ether and Ethereum is basically

5:57

the same thing and tokenization as. a

6:01

candy line as like a nerd

6:03

snipe as something that is enjoyed

6:05

by many, many people. I think

6:08

tokenization has broad appeal. And

6:10

this is the perspective that Zach Ryan's chain

6:12

link God puts into perspective here where he

6:14

says every single financial asset in the world

6:17

will be tokenized on chain, tokenize

6:19

the world tokenize everything. This has

6:21

been a meme that has persisted

6:23

across all crypto cycles. He

6:26

continues there's no longer a question of if

6:28

but a question of when Larry

6:30

Fink co founder and CEO of BlackRock

6:32

has spoken publicly on numerous occasions about

6:34

this inevitability when regulatory clarity continues to

6:37

be a pain point Larry got both

6:39

Bitcoin and ETH ETF approved by an

6:41

anti crypto SEC beyond that

6:43

BlackRock has launched his own tokenized fund

6:46

on Ethereum mainnet now at half a

6:48

billion dollars AUM invested in

6:50

circle which issues usdc invested in

6:52

securitize one of the leading tokenized

6:55

asset issuers and use both circles

6:57

and securitize tech stack to issue

6:59

buildle is that there's no doubt in my

7:01

mind that buildle won't be the last fund BlackRock tokenize

7:03

is on a public blockchain. Okay, so

7:06

really leaning into the tokenization platform

7:08

of Ethereum and also using the

7:10

credibility of BlackRock and Larry Fink

7:12

he's not a crypto native he

7:14

has like he's not a customer.

7:16

Yes. And so I think it's

7:18

worth taking a leaf out of

7:21

his book to understand how he

7:23

is using and also pitching ETH

7:25

to his customers. And so Ethereum as

7:27

a tokenization platform, I think needs to

7:30

be a pretty core component of what

7:32

any typical pitch about ETH is to

7:34

tradify. Okay, so that is the first

7:36

of seven narratives that you think are

7:38

contenders to be one of the key

7:40

narratives to explain this to give your

7:42

60 second to one minute to

7:44

two minutes because David spoiler alert, I

7:47

think mine's closer to two minutes now. To

7:50

give me some grace there, but like

7:52

a tokenization platform. This is not usually

7:54

the pitch you're saying to crypto natives,

7:56

but might be like much more read

7:58

resonant to tradify. And indeed, it was

8:01

certainly that the pitch Larry Fink is given.

8:03

And of course, the customers

8:05

of Larry Fink are going to

8:07

be the buyers of ETFs. BlackRock

8:11

is one of the main issuers of

8:14

the Ethereum ETF. They're the

8:16

leading issuer for the Bitcoin ETF in

8:18

terms of AUM. So you'd

8:20

think this guy knows how to sell

8:23

it. So tokenization platform, it's not exactly

8:25

going bankless, is it? But

8:27

it is something that Ethereum provides, and maybe

8:29

that's the leading narrative for this platform. Totally.

8:32

And I think we all kind of

8:35

felt something in our hearts when we

8:37

learned about the idea of tokenization. And

8:39

so it's also reminding people that, like,

8:41

let's go back to your first days

8:43

in crypto, and what

8:45

really got you excited about crypto? And tokenization,

8:48

the idea of tokens, is definitely up there.

8:50

Well, you know, one thing I used to

8:52

say when I was new

8:55

to learning about Ethereum is that Bitcoin

8:57

was a mono asset platform, just one

8:59

asset, just Bitcoin. And

9:01

Ethereum is a poly asset platform, multiple

9:03

assets. So that

9:05

is a similar idea to tokenization, I guess.

9:08

Let's go into narrative number two, angle number

9:10

two. Ethereum is an app store.

9:13

And this is coming out of Jeff Dorman,

9:15

who put out a tweet saying, attention, BlackRock,

9:17

VanEck, digital assets, and bitwise. Once

9:20

the ETH ETF goes live, please erase

9:22

the words supercomputer, ultrasound money, internet bond

9:24

from your memory. This does not resonate

9:26

with anyone. What does? Ethereum

9:28

is an app store. And this is an

9:30

angle that I've seen many people take. Ethereum

9:33

is an app store. And it's, again, something

9:35

that is familiar to people who do not

9:37

have a crypto background, who don't know

9:39

what Ethereum is. And so it's

9:42

important to know that if we are pitching

9:44

Ether to people with very little familiarity about

9:46

what's going on in our world, then we

9:48

need to pull some knowledge

9:50

from other corners of their brain that

9:52

they already have pre-existing knowledge. People

9:55

know what an app store is. People

9:57

know what a developer platform is. the

10:00

idea of Ethereum as a tech platform that

10:02

grows the more code is written and the

10:04

more that developers build applications on it, that

10:07

is something that is familiar to them. And

10:09

we can like debate about like,

10:11

well, is Ethereum really an app store? And

10:14

I think if you go down into the

10:16

nuances, we're missing the forest for the trees.

10:18

Like simply put, it's a developer platform just

10:20

like the app store. And it grows in

10:22

utility over time, the more developers there are.

10:26

I saw, we saw on a roll

10:28

up recently, Van Spencer pitched this pretty

10:30

effectively in a conversation with Bloomberg where

10:32

he said Ethereum is an app store.

10:34

And then he mentioned some of the

10:36

various apps. And there was like this

10:39

slide shown on screen where it showed

10:41

like Aave and like Compound and Maker

10:43

and basically all of these different logos

10:45

for the types of money apps.

10:47

So I think there is some

10:49

familiarity there and you can like point to

10:52

actual apps that are deployed on the Ethereum

10:54

app store and say, oh, you want a

10:56

collateralized loan? Go here. Oh, you want a stable

10:58

coin? Here's USDC. Go over here. Oh, you want

11:00

it like a payment app? Go over here. And

11:03

so I do think that is a pretty resonant. And

11:05

as you say, David, like everyone knows

11:07

what an app store is. Is

11:09

there a human alive that you're pitching in

11:12

the Ethereum ETF to that hasn't used the

11:14

app store that doesn't have like dozens of

11:16

apps on their smartphone, right? Like none of

11:18

them. So this is a schematic that kind

11:21

of works and links to

11:23

the last very successful compute

11:25

revolution, which was the mobile revolution. And just

11:27

like Ethereum could be as big as the iPhone,

11:30

you know, it calls

11:32

into mind that. I remember when we

11:34

had Mark Cuban on the podcast during

11:36

the middle of 2021, he was

11:39

talking about giving us the perspective that

11:41

he had where he was sharing with

11:43

some of his friends of his age

11:45

who had download Coinbase and was asking

11:47

Mark Cuban like, hey, where's like the

11:49

DeFi apps? Where were all the apps?

11:52

Thinking that there was like an app tab

11:54

in the Coinbase app, not understanding that it's

11:57

actually a little bit like it's one dimension larger

11:59

than that. But people

12:01

are ready for this. People are ready for the App

12:03

Store perspective. They just, in order to be perfectly accurate,

12:05

you kind of have to tweak it and get a

12:08

little bit more educated. But people are so ready to

12:10

think of Ethereum as an App Store. They are ready

12:12

for that. The way that the

12:14

weakness of this narrative, I think, is

12:17

it quickly falls down when they're like,

12:19

where's the App Store? You can't point

12:21

them to one central location to go

12:23

download their app or go look at

12:25

the reviews or just click

12:27

and start using. It's much

12:29

more like the internet where you have

12:31

to export on your own and there's

12:33

rough edges. There's not one central pristine

12:36

App Store type of experience brought to you

12:38

by some commercialized UX

12:41

champion of

12:44

the world. It's just very rough. I

12:46

do agree with you that that's where the metaphor breaks down,

12:48

but we also have to remember who the audience is. The

12:50

audience is buying the Ether ETF, which you

12:52

cannot use in any of the apps. Oh, they're not

12:54

users, so we don't have to worry about that. They're

12:56

not users. They're not cussing anything. Yeah,

13:00

and so they're like, oh, Ethereum is an

13:02

App Store? Great, I'll buy it. Not considered,

13:04

they're not actually going to take it to

13:06

the apps because they're buying the ETF. So

13:08

they just want exposure, which is great. You

13:11

can use some of the lack of

13:14

sophistication of crypto-nativity to actually make this

13:16

pitch, I think, easier, not harder. Okay,

13:19

so that's number two. Ethereum is an App Store.

13:21

What's number three, David? I call

13:23

this a six and a half, not seven. Number three,

13:25

this is coming from Ryan Rasmussen out of Bitwise

13:27

who says, Ethereum is an operating system

13:29

and an App Store for

13:32

crypto applications. So really adding

13:34

the operating perspective here to

13:36

the Ethereum pitch. And

13:38

I think this is where we also get

13:40

the opportunity to really differentiate Bitcoin and

13:43

teach whoever is hearing these pitches and

13:46

give them a little bit stronger foundation. Ethereum,

13:48

it's not digital gold. Bitcoin just does

13:51

Bitcoin. It doesn't hold apps. It just

13:53

is Bitcoin the asset. Ethereum is an

13:56

operating system and a developer platform. And

13:58

that's also what many other. the other

14:00

blockchains are like. This is where Pomp, when

14:02

he was on Fast Money, talked about all

14:05

the other smart contracting platforms that are out

14:07

there. Ethereum, Solana, all the

14:09

other ones. And so you

14:11

can also gain some assurances, some confidence

14:14

in whoever you are pitching this to,

14:17

by their ability to be familiar with the

14:19

idea of, oh, Bitcoin is separate and it's

14:21

unique because it's just digital gold, it's just

14:23

an asset. But Ethereum is an operating system,

14:25

which is something that you're familiar with and

14:28

you build apps on it, which is something

14:30

you're familiar with. And so I think

14:32

leaning into the operating system, that is

14:34

Ethereum, helps embolden the tech

14:36

platform angle that I think we definitely

14:38

want with Ether. And also I

14:41

think helps people become more familiar with the landscape

14:43

of all the entire crypto applications or crypto platforms.

14:45

I know coming into this, you asked, hey, Brian,

14:47

do you have another one to add to this

14:49

list of seven? And I told you I didn't

14:51

have one, but let me just add one now,

14:53

because this is maybe a half step, right? You're

14:55

just saying, rather than just Ethereum is an app

14:57

store, it's an

14:59

operating system as well. Let me give you

15:01

a full step, which is maybe a

15:03

separate narrative. What about Ethereum as the

15:06

internet of value? And

15:08

this is kind of like the idea that rather

15:10

than just an operating system, it's kind of

15:12

like the internet, only for things

15:15

that have value. And so it's more

15:17

rough, it's more rugged, it's more, you

15:19

kind of have to surf it and

15:21

browse it and that sort of thing.

15:23

It's permissionless, anyone can deploy to it.

15:26

I think that is similar to the

15:28

app store, but also different because the

15:30

internet is not just a sandbox constrained

15:33

by one company with this walled garden

15:35

type of environment, but it's much more

15:37

free form, like anyone can deploy, anyone

15:39

could expand to it. So maybe that's

15:42

another narrative that gets us the full

15:44

seven here, David, but it's pretty related to this

15:46

operating system or app store type of

15:49

idea, Ethereum, the internet of value. Totally,

15:52

my commentary on that one would be, it

15:54

definitely fits and it's a more pure

15:56

representation and I like it, it's a little bit more

15:58

crypto native, And we've also

16:01

moved away from familiarity. Internet

16:03

of value is another way to say

16:05

operating system that's a little bit more

16:07

true to what Ethereum is, but then

16:09

you also lose some familiarity and some

16:11

pre-existing knowledge. And so I think that's

16:14

something that somebody hearing this pitch could

16:16

get to an aha moment about. But

16:18

I think if I'm just a

16:20

60-year-old person with my savings and

16:23

you're pitching me a blockchain

16:25

app store versus Internet of Value, I think blockchain

16:27

app store is going to be a little bit

16:30

more resonant. I agree too. Like

16:32

Internet of Value feels so amorphous, right? What

16:34

is value anyway? That word value, it's almost

16:36

like Internet of Assets might be better. But

16:38

let's go to number four. What's number four?

16:41

Number four, ETH is digital oil. Now there's

16:43

one of these pitches that I'm

16:46

going to say we should not definitely do. And

16:48

there's pros and cons of all of these pitches.

16:51

And so I'm not going to say that

16:53

Ethereum is digital oil is like the perfect

16:55

pitch, but it's definitely worth talking about as

16:57

a perspective. Especially if

16:59

we are really looking for that one liner

17:01

that Eric Balchunas was really asking for.

17:04

If Bitcoin is digital gold, then what is

17:07

the commodity? What is the resource that Ethereum

17:09

is? Ethereum is digital oil. It's

17:11

literally called gas. It is

17:13

the thing that funds and powers

17:15

the application that is on Ethereum.

17:17

When you make a transaction on

17:19

Ethereum to do some

17:22

app, somebody's computers somewhere in the

17:24

world starts flops. It starts

17:26

doing some flops. It actually starts doing some

17:28

computation. And you need to consume Ether.

17:30

You need to consume the oil to

17:32

power those crypto applications. And

17:35

so it's not perfect because it's going

17:37

to develop a lot further questions. But

17:39

in terms of just like if we're

17:41

putting things into like perfect commodity like

17:44

resources, oil I think is

17:46

the correct comparison for gold. So Bitcoin is

17:48

digital gold, then Ethereum is digital oil. For

17:51

the ETH bulls, it also has this nice property in that

17:53

it's like almost a 7x larger than the

17:56

total market cap of gold. So

17:59

gold market cap of gold. The market cap is about 17 trillion,

18:01

at least according to this estimate right here.

18:03

The market cap of oil, if you multiply

18:05

all the barrels of oil by about $70

18:07

per barrel, you

18:11

get 115 trillion, so a lot larger than oil. Certainly

18:16

oil being a consumptive good

18:19

is certainly resonant with the

18:21

idea of gas. Bigger market

18:23

cap, the idea of gas, it's

18:26

not bad. We're not

18:28

talking about Ethereum, the network in

18:30

this case though. You are very squarely talking

18:32

about Ether, the asset or just ETH. Yeah,

18:35

exactly. Even though

18:37

it probably generates further questions and

18:40

a little bit of confusion in your

18:42

listener, at least put something

18:44

in the frame of mind is like, well,

18:47

from some perspectives, Ether is meant to

18:49

be consumed. You are supposed to

18:51

burn Ether to use the applications. That is

18:53

its purpose. Some people

18:55

like the productivity and the

18:58

GDP association that comes with

19:00

some crypto asset being oil. A

19:04

lot of people don't like the idea of

19:06

a deflationary asset. They have been trained to

19:09

think that money should inflate. They have been

19:11

trained to think that an inflation-based economy is

19:13

better producing of value and

19:17

resources. Some people just resonate with the idea

19:19

of oil, I think more than a gold

19:21

or a fixed market cap asset. It does

19:24

also, now that Ethereum does have the burn

19:26

in place, it does map nicely to

19:28

you. You have to burn oil in order to get

19:30

things done and you have to burn ETH in order

19:32

to cause movement, pay for transactions

19:34

on the Ethereum networks. That's nice as

19:37

well. I'll admit that for myself, David,

19:39

I've ebbed and flowed with respect to

19:41

this narrative. There are times where I'm

19:43

like, yeah, yeah, that's right. Another times where I'm like, I hate

19:45

this narrative. This is worth it. Ethereum is

19:47

not oil at all. It is a non-sovereign store

19:50

of value in the same way Bitcoin is. It's

19:52

like a money. I've gone back and forth on

19:54

this. I feel like full cycle when I

19:56

zoom out and look at the context. It's not bad.

19:59

I kind of like this. Ethereum is oil or

20:01

ether is oil. Okay, we're starting

20:03

to get into what I would call some of

20:05

the worst narratives that are still helpful. And

20:08

so worse maybe for like presenting

20:10

ether as a first time to a

20:12

first timer, maybe these narratives

20:15

start to come in further down someone's journey

20:17

of understanding. And worse for trad five specifically

20:19

is what you're saying. Worse for trad five,

20:21

worse for the current audience. Yeah, this is

20:23

a narrative that we're about

20:25

to present that I think Bankless, you

20:27

and I have thoroughly enjoyed, but it

20:29

has come after just years of like

20:31

education and perspectives and exploration of what

20:33

Ethereum is. And that's ether as an

20:35

internet bond. If we have

20:38

the Ethereum stake rate at what

20:40

is it now, 3.2%

20:42

for this internet native store value asset

20:44

that's used as a collateral and DeFi.

20:46

Well, the most risk off thing you

20:48

can do that's also highly exposed to

20:50

the crypto economy is buy ETH and

20:52

stake it. Buy your crypto

20:54

asset, buy your money, buy your digital oil,

20:56

whatever, stake it to Ethereum and you get

20:59

the internet bond. You get the bond, the

21:01

stake rate of ETH. And

21:03

since, you know, ether the asset is

21:05

the foundation of so many applications in

21:07

the DeFi landscape, the internet bond

21:09

is the yield rate that transcends

21:11

all of DeFi. This

21:13

one, once again, definitely requires some

21:15

prerequisite knowledge to really make

21:18

this angle resonant with

21:20

people. It definitely also requires understanding what

21:22

DeFi is and how ether is a

21:24

money in DeFi. But this

21:26

is one that we've enjoyed and

21:28

I know that crypto natives also enjoy it the more

21:30

that they understand Ethereum as a financial system. Okay,

21:33

yeah, I also enjoy it, David. So

21:35

there's lots of good things we could

21:38

say about it. Like it's definitely a

21:40

differentiator from Bitcoin and the key like

21:42

ability to stake ether is kind of

21:44

much different than Bitcoin. Also you get

21:46

to comp it to like, what's the

21:49

value of sovereign bonds around the world?

21:51

Something like 70 trillion, okay? And so

21:53

the idea of Ethereum being sort of

21:55

like a nation state only a network

21:57

state that secures property rights.

22:00

We could geek out on that for

22:02

many episodes of Bankless, and indeed we

22:05

have. So the parallels and the analogs

22:07

are really good here. And so I

22:09

definitely like the ether as an internet

22:11

bond for a crypto native audience who's

22:14

really deeply trying to understand how we're

22:16

securing property rights inside of these

22:18

crypto economic systems. That

22:20

said, I totally agree with you. It

22:22

is like among the worst narratives to

22:25

present to TradFi and an ETH

22:27

buyer, not least of which because they don't get

22:29

any yield in Ethereum ETF

22:31

right now. All

22:33

they get is the asset, right? So they can't even mistake

22:35

this. And when you say

22:38

internet bond, what do you actually mean? A bond

22:40

of the internet? They're not-

22:42

Because a bond is supposed to come

22:44

from a government or corporation. Exactly. And

22:46

they haven't listened to dozens

22:49

of Bankless episodes telling them

22:51

why this is similar to

22:54

a nation state. And so it

22:56

requires too much in terms of fundamentals

22:59

to easily articulate this to somebody with

23:01

Wall Street knowledge. All right.

23:03

Second to last, I think this one is actually a

23:05

pretty strong one, but again, not necessarily something I would

23:07

lead with. Programmable money.

23:09

And I want to note that this tweet

23:11

is from 2019, this tweet from Eric Conner.

23:14

He says, the original Ethereum vision of programmable

23:16

money is the strongest narrative and the one

23:18

that will translate best to the mainstream. Quit

23:20

looking elsewhere. Programmable

23:22

money. If Bitcoin is digital gold,

23:25

then Ethereum is programmable money. And

23:28

this gets into the idea of

23:30

smart contracts and an app store

23:33

because apps are programs. And

23:35

then Ether is the money that goes through the

23:37

programs. It also alludes to the

23:39

fact that, well, there's other crypto assets out

23:41

there that aren't programmable. Oh yeah,

23:44

that's Bitcoin. Bitcoin, not programmable.

23:46

Ether, programmable. And

23:48

I don't think this really helps deliver

23:50

an all encompassing vision of Ether

23:52

or Ethereum, but it does. It's

23:55

like, I think the only way to really get at what

23:57

is Ether, what is Ethereum is from. So

24:00

many different angles, right? That's why we're talking about seven different

24:02

angles. And this is a very valid one. This is a

24:04

very simple one. You already know Bitcoin.

24:06

You already know it's a digital asset on the network. It runs

24:08

on a thing called a blockchain. Ether

24:10

is the same thing, but it's programmable, implying

24:13

that Bitcoin is not and implying that you

24:15

can do things with the programs. Yeah,

24:18

I do like this. It does resonate

24:20

with me. However, I feel

24:22

like it misses something in communicating the

24:24

ETH narrative to the audience, which is like

24:27

it doesn't necessarily imply operating

24:29

system or app store or

24:32

platform. When I just hear

24:34

the term programmable money in a vacuum without

24:36

knowing everything that you just said, I might

24:39

just think it's just one mono

24:41

asset that I can write if

24:44

then statements on. And

24:47

does not necessarily imply that there will

24:49

be all sorts of different apps and

24:51

different tokens and different assets and even

24:53

chains that can be launched on top

24:55

of this. So it's not,

24:57

I don't think it encompasses the full

24:59

vision of what could like, I would

25:02

even prefer, I think the app store

25:04

type of analogy to programmable money because

25:06

it feels much more rich and resonant,

25:09

even if it's not exactly accurate. Yeah.

25:12

And like I said, I think a full holistic

25:15

understanding of what Ether is requires all of

25:17

these narratives, not just like one. We're just

25:19

kind of going through the ones

25:21

by strength. And this is, we're coming up

25:23

to our number seven, the last one, which

25:25

I think is going to be the weakest

25:27

narrative, which you should not use. And

25:30

that is, ETH is ultrasound money,

25:32

which has been the funny narrative that

25:34

many in the Ethereum community has used

25:37

for a long time, including ourselves. And

25:39

I think it has been a great narrative while

25:41

the industry understood what sound money was,

25:44

and we would be able to poke

25:46

fun at Bitcoin. The idea of sound

25:48

money versus ultrasound money came from an

25:51

era in crypto in which it was

25:53

basically just the Bitcoin community and the

25:55

Ethereum community. So Lana hadn't even gone

25:57

live yet. Like the only, the other.

26:00

Avalanche was like the other blockchain that was

26:02

out there and had a community, but very

26:04

few other communities exist. Ultrasound

26:06

money was strictly a narrative

26:08

to counteract Bitcoin narratives.

26:10

It was a narrative about

26:13

the crypto industry for the crypto

26:15

industry. It's supposed to say insular

26:17

into the crypto community. I

26:19

would not suggest if you're trying to sell ETH

26:22

to TradFi to BlackRock, to your parents, don't

26:24

call it Ultrasound money. They won't get it. No, they

26:26

don't. Pretty great. 2019,

26:29

2020 is crypto wars. This

26:32

meme came out in 2021 as a

26:34

reaction to many in the Bitcoin side

26:36

saying, well, Ethereum is just like you can change the

26:38

supply at a whim. It's just like fiat. It's

26:41

just like a central bank coin. The fact that you

26:43

stake it even is

26:46

further evidence that this is just like a fiat

26:48

type of system. You

26:50

just consume the gas, ETH

26:53

as gas, as

26:55

you go. You don't need to buy ETH

26:57

in order to store value. Store your value

26:59

in secure assets, in store

27:01

value assets like Bitcoin, and just

27:03

buy ETH as you

27:05

need it to pay for compute. This

27:09

was when Ethereum's monetary policy was

27:11

really being hardened and its issuance

27:13

schedule and the realization that ETH

27:15

could be a store of value

27:17

asset, but it's very insular to

27:19

the crypto community. It is not

27:21

the way to export our

27:23

narrative to the broader world. Okay,

27:26

those are the seven different perspectives that I thought

27:29

was pretty useful in forming my

27:31

pitch. Without

27:33

further ado, Ryan, shall we get to the pitches? Totally

27:35

should, David. I'm too curious

27:37

as to which of those narratives you used,

27:39

or maybe you came up with a David

27:41

Hoffman special number eight narrative. I might have.

27:43

I might have. I can't wait

27:45

to hear your pitch. But before we do, we

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want to thank the sponsors that made this episode

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31:29

as a reminder, if you're a bankless citizen who

31:31

is holding a 2022 POAP

31:34

or later, so 2023, 2024,

31:36

or you're a gauntlet NFT

31:38

holder, you have voting rights on

31:40

our joke race contest which voting

31:42

is now open. So all citizens

31:44

who fit that criteria have one

31:47

vote. There are 8,000 something

31:49

Ethereum addresses that

31:52

are eligible for voting and

31:54

so please vote for whoever you think has the

31:56

better pitch. And remember it's very important that this

31:58

is a pitch for people who... who would

32:00

buy Ether ETF, who would buy

32:02

the Ether ETF. This isn't for like getting people

32:04

on chain. This is for people who BlackRock is

32:06

talking to. It's not for you, it's for them.

32:09

Like it's for your parents and your grandparents. All

32:12

right, you ready? I'm ready, man. Go for it. All

32:14

right, here we go. Ethereum is like

32:16

Bitcoin, but with the addition of programmability,

32:18

which really changes the game that Ethereum

32:20

is playing. Ethereum's programmability

32:23

evolves Ethereum beyond just being a

32:25

scarce digital asset to being able

32:27

to host an entirely online digital

32:29

economy. This programmability enables

32:32

Ethereum to be a platform for

32:34

financial applications. Much like how the

32:36

App Store and the Google Play

32:38

Store are developer platforms for consumer

32:40

apps, the Ethereum Blockchain is a

32:42

developer platform that enables consumer financial

32:44

applications that offer services that are

32:47

familiar to Wall Street. Exchanges, banking,

32:49

marketplaces, borrowing and lending services, even

32:51

asset creation and industry products. Ethereum

32:54

is an open platform for anyone

32:56

to build whatever financial application that

32:58

they can imagine. Since

33:01

Ethereum is an internet-based protocol,

33:03

it has internet-scaled distribution. The

33:06

applications on Ethereum are accessible to anyone

33:08

with an internet connection, making these applications

33:10

on Ethereum some of the most widely

33:12

used and fastest growing financial service applications

33:14

that have ever existed. Demand

33:17

for these on-chain applications on Ethereum produce

33:19

two to three billion dollars in yearly

33:21

revenue for the protocol, which Ethereum turns

33:24

into a stock buyback for its native

33:26

currency, ETH, which materially impacts the available

33:28

supply of ETH on secondary markets, making

33:30

it very price-sensitive to marginal demand. So,

33:33

if you're bullish on the growth and adoption

33:36

of crypto and blockchain technology at large, the

33:38

Bitcoin ETF simply doesn't offer that exposure. You

33:40

need the ETH ETF. Thank

33:45

you. Thank you. Well done, David. That was great. A+,

33:48

where do I buy my Ethereum ETF, huh? I

33:50

almost want to sell my regular ETH and buy

33:52

the ETF now. Buy just the ETF.

33:55

Yeah, that was great. All right, so tell me, you

33:57

went with platform. You went with

33:59

kind of... of open

34:01

internet protocol,

34:04

but you didn't say the word protocol, but you

34:06

said apps, you named a

34:08

number of the actual apps, like you

34:10

said, exchanges, which are big and people

34:13

are thinking about that. You

34:15

also said a banking,

34:17

which kind of links both TradFi and

34:19

sort of crypto native type things. What

34:23

narratives, it felt like you touched on

34:25

a number of narratives. It definitely didn't

34:27

touch on internet bond or ultrasound money

34:29

or any of the internal crypto ones,

34:31

but you did do some tokenization, ask

34:33

stuff. You did do some app store.

34:36

I said asset creation. I didn't say

34:38

the word tokenization. That's probably a miss

34:40

on my part. I

34:42

could have added tokenization in there somewhere

34:44

specifically. I just said even asset creation

34:46

and indices. Yeah. So

34:49

what were you thinking? Like what was that pitch about? What

34:51

were you trying to do? Okay,

34:53

so I wanted to break it down into

34:55

three parts. And first

34:57

was apps and developer platform, which

35:00

was meant to hopefully lead into

35:02

being an internet economy. And

35:04

so this was the thing that we didn't really talk

35:06

about as a narrative in the first seven. But I

35:08

think it's definitely worth, worth

35:11

like trying to trigger the imaginations of. If we're

35:13

trying to be ambitious with this pitch, the thing

35:15

that we should strive for is thinking

35:17

of Ethereum as hosting an internet based

35:19

economy. We know that there's commerce on

35:22

the internet, but we also know it's

35:24

not internet native, like Visa, MasterCard, like

35:26

Zelle. These aren't internet native.

35:29

Bitcoin is internet native. Can we get

35:31

people to think about internet native GDP,

35:33

an internet native economy? And that's

35:35

what I was trying to get with

35:39

internet scale distribution of its financial apps. So that's

35:41

your way to kind of, the internet economy is

35:43

your way to sort of spoon

35:45

feed them a future idea of an

35:47

internet bond, right? Because once you have

35:50

an internet economy with its own GDP

35:52

and it's self-sustaining taxes

35:54

and economics, then you can start to

35:56

pull them on internet bond. Then they

35:58

get ready for their. ready for that

36:00

later. Totally, yes. Yeah, and

36:02

so first you have to get them comfortable

36:04

with commerce on Ethereum, tokens

36:07

moving around Ethereum, BlackRock tokenizing

36:09

Buildle, and that's moving around

36:11

Ethereum. Then you can wake

36:13

them up to, well, doing all of that

36:15

costs fees. That goes into revenue for the

36:18

protocol, which is issues and ETH buyback. That's

36:20

why we call it GAS. And

36:22

then you can just talk about all the other

36:24

things. But it's really true. You load up the

36:27

idea of this sci-fi, economy

36:30

that's native on the internet. And then you can back

36:32

into some of the other more complicated things.

36:34

That was my thought process. Getting

36:36

the idea of the internet economy in Ethereum

36:38

is that platform. That was what my goal

36:41

was. So open dev

36:43

platform, imply that, and then also

36:45

the internet economy, seeding them with

36:47

that, and talking about some use

36:50

cases that they're familiar with in apps that they're

36:52

familiar with and seeding all that. That was great.

36:55

Nice job, man. We sold some

36:57

Ethereum ETF already. I know it. Can

37:00

we sell some more? Can you sell some more?

37:02

Yeah. Well, let's hear yours, sir. All right. I'll

37:05

give it a try here. Bitcoin

37:07

is one asset. It's just

37:09

Bitcoin. Ethereum is

37:12

all possible assets, which is bigger.

37:14

Gold or all the assets in the

37:16

world? Bitcoin was designed

37:19

to secure one asset, just

37:21

Bitcoin. Ethereum is a

37:23

general purpose platform designed to

37:25

secure everything else, stablecoins, loans,

37:28

equities, bonds, derivatives, everything in

37:30

finance. The word for this is

37:33

tokenization. People like Larry

37:35

Fink are saying every stock, bond, and asset will

37:37

be tokenized on a global ledger, and even he's

37:39

thinking too small. Tokenization isn't just

37:42

the assets of the past. It's the assets

37:44

of the future. AI compute,

37:46

personal data, social status, and

37:48

celebrity. Everything will

37:50

be tokenized. Ethereum

37:52

is a global computing network to tokenize

37:55

and program any asset. Ethereum

37:57

adds property rights to the internet. Now,

37:59

tokenization. can and will happen on other

38:01

platforms. But Ethereum is positioned as the

38:03

strongest contender to ride the tokenization wave.

38:06

There's 100 million people that own ETH,

38:08

100,000 developers that actively contribute to the

38:10

code. Already Ethereum settles more than the

38:13

Visa network and it's just getting started.

38:15

So now let's talk about ETH. The

38:18

cryptocurrency of Ethereum is called ETH. It

38:20

has investable economics, including an algorithmic buyback

38:22

and dividend program that drives billions per

38:25

year in earnings to ETH holders. This

38:27

number grows as the network expands. You

38:29

can build a DCF model on ETH

38:31

as you would with any stock, a

38:34

stock maybe like Nvidia. And

38:36

because ETH is extremely secure and decentralized

38:38

like Bitcoin, more and more people are

38:40

seeing ETH as a compliment to Bitcoin

38:42

as a store of value. While

38:45

Bitcoin has greater certainty of supply,

38:47

Ethereum pays a dividend and is

38:49

deflationary with the upside of an

38:51

entire token economy. Bitcoin

38:54

is exposure to digital gold, Ethereum

38:56

is exposure to everything else. I

38:59

own both, but if I could only pick one,

39:01

I'd pick the super set, I'd pick

39:03

ETH. Chills,

39:07

chills, chills. Can I

39:09

tell you what I liked about that? Yeah. Something

39:12

that we both did is we use

39:14

Bitcoin as an anchor. And

39:16

I think that's, you have to do that. Like

39:18

you have to start at the foundation because Bitcoin

39:21

is so stupid, simple. And then you, I really

39:23

like the idea of like, ETH is the super

39:25

set of that. And I think you leaned into

39:27

that both at the beginning and at the very

39:29

end where Bitcoin is just one asset and

39:32

Ethereum is all possible assets. And I think

39:34

that line that you said where Ethereum is

39:36

both all like historical assets, all assets that

39:38

currently exist, but then also all future assets,

39:40

that kind of does the same thing that

39:42

I was trying to do with saying like,

39:45

open up like, you can definitely think what

39:48

feels good to you. Like we can put

39:50

your bonds on chain boomers. Like that's

39:52

what the build fund is, but also

39:54

think bigger. Like also think more expansively.

39:56

And I think that's where the Ethereum narrative

39:59

both suffer. and also is

40:01

his greatest strength is like you get to

40:03

think bigger with Ethereum. I think you did that

40:05

very, very well. Think bigger. Yeah, it

40:08

felt like that was worth a one-liner. It

40:10

was like Larry Fink thinks this is cool

40:12

and he wants to tokenize everything with it,

40:14

but also think about the expansive use cases

40:16

he's not thinking about and Tratify is not

40:18

thinking about like AI compute

40:20

or social status and celebrity and that

40:22

sort of thing. I do

40:25

have to say this pitch was

40:27

heavily inspired by a five-minute pitch by Nick Shalich

40:30

of Ribbit Capital. You saw that. I think we're

40:32

going to have Nick on the podcast soon. It's

40:34

basically like a lot of his ideas because he

40:36

nailed it. One thing that Nick does is

40:39

he went all in on tokenization. I

40:41

sort of did that too. You spend a

40:43

lot of time on tokenization. That was I

40:45

just picked the one thing and I just

40:47

picked tokenization for my like 60 seconds to

40:50

two minutes thing and I went kind of like all in

40:52

on that. But

40:54

yeah, I do agree. You have to start

40:56

with Bitcoin, not least of which because they

40:58

already have a Bitcoin ETF. They're likely already

41:05

buyers of Bitcoin. There

41:07

you go. That was

41:10

pretty good pitches. Yeah, that was it. That was

41:12

pretty good pitches. I think we

41:14

can definitely iterate and make these better and better

41:16

and better. Like you said, we're going to talk

41:18

with Nick from Ribbit. I

41:20

think maybe phase two of our pitches comes after we

41:22

talk to him. David, are you able to distill your

41:24

pitch down to like one line? Do you think you

41:26

could do that? Like if you were to just summarize,

41:28

just give me off the cuff, just one line to

41:30

summarize your pitch. Internet economy, I think

41:33

is like Ethereum is an

41:35

internet economy. Okay. So

41:38

I think mine is internet GDP. Like I'm

41:40

trying to get to them to think GDP

41:42

on the internet. I think

41:44

mine was probably like Ethereum is

41:47

tokenization or Ethereum is

41:49

everything else. Bitcoin is digital

41:51

gold. Ethereum is everything else. But

41:53

everything else also doesn't like it

41:56

is a hot, it's a hotline. It's a hotline. It's

41:58

a hotline, but it doesn't work. But it's everything.

42:01

It's literally the opposite of what a definition

42:03

is. Yeah, exactly. It's

42:06

all the other things. Anyway,

42:08

we've got some more work to do to distill this down to

42:10

one line. For sure. All

42:12

right, Bankless Nation, Bankless citizens. Since you guys are listening to

42:14

this, go to Joke Race. There is a link in the

42:16

show notes. There will be a link in the Discord and

42:18

vote on who you think, the better

42:20

pitch, me or Ryan. And one of us will walk

42:23

away at the end of voting, which will happen on

42:25

Saturday. Today is Monday, June 10th. So Saturday the 5th,

42:27

I think. Saturday, end of day

42:29

Saturday. So we have until end of day

42:31

Saturday to decide. And one lucky Bankless co-host

42:33

gets to walk away with the

42:35

bragging rights POAP. For now,

42:37

that's a temporary thing. I'm sure we'll come up

42:40

with some new ways to kind of gamble this

42:42

thing and exchange hands later on some more competitions

42:44

for us. I am not stepping

42:46

foot in a boxing ring with you, though, David. I

42:48

just want to say that's out of bounds. I would

42:50

definitely give my ass handed to me. Maybe with these

42:52

narrative pitches, I have at least a shot. We've

42:55

got to end with this. Of course, you know, crypto

42:57

is risky. You could lose what you put in. But

43:00

we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for

43:02

everyone. But we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey.

43:04

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