0:01

It's two thousand

0:03

and ten. I'm sitting

0:05

on a bench in the grounds of the University

0:07

of Nottingham Sutton Bonnington campus

0:10

alone quiet and

0:13

watching.

0:16

This is the first day of term.

0:18

Fresh faced undergraduates mill

0:20

about nervously, gathering in small

0:23

groups, making their hurried journeys

0:25

to and fro, finding their place

0:27

in this strange new world.

0:32

At a glance, their move mint seems

0:34

random, chaotic. Yet

0:36

the decades old pads worn into

0:38

the ground under their feet suggest they

0:40

are part of a big older story.

0:43

A story that I can see unfold by

0:45

sitting here still for

0:48

long enough to watch the patterns developing.

0:51

Like ants making their way to and from

0:53

their nests.

0:57

As random as it may all seem,

0:59

these people are moving with purpose.

1:04

For almost as long as I can remember,

1:06

this is how I settle into any

1:09

new environment. It's a habit

1:11

I developed as a child when we

1:13

used to move countries every three

1:15

years or so with my father's job,

1:18

often at short notice. One

1:21

move might be to Botswana.

1:25

The next Nigeria Our

1:29

entire frame of reference could change

1:31

overnight from language to

1:33

education to friendship

1:34

groups. But

1:36

I learned to embrace the change and

1:39

turn all that potential chaos

1:41

into my own kind of order by

1:43

watching listening and taking

1:45

it all in. Sitting

1:48

on this bench at the University of

1:51

Nottingham in two thousand ten,

1:53

I'm glad these skills, this ability

1:55

to draw order out of chaos.

2:00

The years that lay ahead of me first to

2:02

my undergraduate degree, then masters

2:05

and finally PhD will be tougher

2:07

and more complex than I can imagine

2:09

right now. But in this quiet

2:11

moment, it feels like everything

2:14

is coming together.

2:25

I'm Lieutenant Shackle did. And

2:27

I'm Sebastian Echevari.

2:28

And this is the BBC

2:30

Earth podcast.

2:41

In this episode, we are talking

2:44

about order and chaos. We'll

2:46

hear from the scientists try to categorize

2:49

the DNA of every plant, animal,

2:51

and fungus in the entire UK.

2:54

Things will get routed in an experts

2:57

guide to murmurations and

2:59

we'll find ourselves at the center of a migrating

3:02

herd of wildebeast.

3:06

I

3:08

think it takes a scientific

3:10

mind to observe the world in the

3:12

way that you described. Sitting

3:14

down and making sense of what you're seeing.

3:17

And doing so, you unlock this whole

3:19

new skill set. You're easing

3:22

your adjustment into unfamiliar worlds,

3:24

which from the sounds of it, is something

3:26

you experience a lot.

3:27

Yeah. It's always this weird sort of thing

3:30

that, you know, when you move from one

3:32

country to the next especially when it's so

3:34

abruptly, you can

3:36

feel the chaos it's almost like

3:38

you're in the rapids of a

3:40

river. And it sounds like you've learned

3:42

to really embrace that chaos.

3:44

Yeah. I'd say more accurately find

3:47

the order out of the chaos. Right?

3:49

So you stop swimming against

3:51

the current and, like, flailing around

3:53

in the river rapids and just learn

3:56

to go with the flow, which is what this

3:58

episode is really about, you know, that

3:59

tension between order and disorder.

4:03

And how our response to

4:05

those things can actually change

4:07

them.

4:07

One of the things that I think is super

4:09

interesting about nature is that

4:12

our perspective on something

4:14

can really shift if we just

4:17

change the scale of what we're looking at.

4:19

Mhmm. So On the

4:21

big surface level, a B

4:23

colony can look like a well

4:25

oiled ordered machine. But

4:27

if you follow what a bee or

4:29

say other social insects like termites

4:31

or ants, if you follow

4:33

what they're doing on an individual

4:36

level or even as a small group,

4:38

they're kind of bumbling around looking for

4:40

stuff. They have a general idea, but

4:42

it isn't all smooth lines

4:44

and perfect planning. And you can take

4:46

this even further. If you zoom all the

4:48

way down to the size of molecule

4:51

and individual atoms and even subatomic

4:54

particles, the rules

4:56

and the physics that describe how

4:58

those objects interact with

5:00

each other have this

5:02

inherent chaotic randomness

5:04

to it. Of course, if you zoom

5:06

all the way back out, we don't notice

5:08

that every second to second, but it is

5:10

there. There are scientists and

5:12

researchers all over the world spending

5:14

years and years of their lives trying

5:16

to see how it fits together, trying to

5:18

see what patterns they

5:20

can notice within the chaos. And

5:23

then there's a group of researchers in

5:25

Oxford UK who have taken all of this

5:27

to the next level in

5:29

what's become known as the Darwin

5:31

Tree of Life Project.

5:33

It's a big project. You know, there

5:35

aiming to sequence the genomes of

5:38

all seventy thousand species of

5:40

plants and animals and fungi in

5:42

the entire United Kingdom. I

5:44

feel like

5:44

there might be listeners out there who have

5:47

heard the term gene sequencing, but

5:49

are perhaps not quite sure what it means.

5:51

And trust me, I have been there

5:53

many, many times. How

5:55

would you explain the concept of

5:57

sequencing a genome? In

5:59

very

5:59

general terms, a genome

6:02

is the complete set of DNA

6:05

for an organism. And

6:07

sequencing is a process of

6:10

figuring out what the order

6:12

of an organism's DNA

6:13

is There are of course a lot of extra

6:16

steps and complications along the way,

6:18

but we'll leave that to the experts.

6:20

It's

6:22

mid spring at an absolutely perfect

6:25

time for visiting and also

6:27

sampling in the woods.

6:31

We're surrounded by an absolute see

6:33

of bluebells.

6:35

It's very lovely.

6:42

I'm doctor Liam Crowley, and

6:44

I'm a post doctor a researcher at

6:47

the University of Oxford. Apartment

6:49

of zoology. And we're

6:51

working on the Darwin

6:53

Tree of Life project where we're trying

6:55

to sequence the full genome of every

6:57

species of animal, plants,

6:59

and fungi in the UK. And

7:04

that number is more

7:07

than seventy thousand species.

7:14

Today, we're just gonna go after one

7:16

species in particular. So

7:18

it's called surface arbizii and

7:20

it's a hoverfly. They

7:22

love dappled leaves of Sycamore

7:24

and Beach, that kind of thing. And

7:26

this species does a really interesting

7:29

the peculiar thing where the males

7:31

actually sit on a leaf

7:34

and hump. And no one really knows

7:36

exactly why they do it. It's probably some kind

7:38

of territory thing. But

7:40

it's it means that sometimes you walk

7:42

into a woodland especially in spring and

7:44

you just hear this background humming

7:46

And for years, I didn't know what it was and then I found out

7:48

it's this hoverfly.

7:57

Okay. So I've just heard a

7:59

buzzing

7:59

over here for the side. There's

8:02

some males just hovering above our head

8:04

now. And if they land on

8:06

one of these leaves, we might be able to hear

8:08

them doing that buzzing.

8:20

So our next job is to try and

8:22

catch one and I've got a fancy kite

8:24

net, which has got a long handle, which

8:26

will allow me to reach up. And if I'm

8:28

quick, I can just reach up

8:30

and Yep.

8:33

I've got one here in the bottom of

8:35

the net. And I can take him out,

8:37

pop him in a pot, and then we'll

8:39

take him back to the lab and flash

8:41

freeze to preserve the DNA.

8:45

We

8:47

have

8:51

here a a bath of

8:53

dry ice colder than minus

8:55

eighty. And then within that, we

8:57

have cooling arena and

8:59

the the sample goes to that arena and then

9:01

instantly flash freezes We can

9:03

then quickly photograph it and

9:05

remove a leg for DNA barcoding, and

9:07

then the rest of the sample goes into one

9:09

of these pots.

9:11

And each pot

9:13

has its own unique barcode

9:16

and then the pots will

9:18

go through into the

9:20

freezer. And in

9:26

the next step, these samples will be

9:28

shipped to the SendGrid to Tube where the sequencing

9:31

happens.

9:34

I'm

9:37

Caroline Howard. I'm senior scientific

9:40

manager the Tree of Life program. So

9:42

I lead the call laboratory team.

9:48

Across

9:48

the country, we have hundreds of collectors

9:50

who collect all manner of

9:52

organisms from bees to beetles

9:54

to fish in the oceans. And

9:57

they freeze them and send them all to us

9:59

here.

10:02

Samples arrive in these beautifully

10:04

bar coded tubes. We can remove the

10:06

sample from the tube and we then need to

10:08

disrupt

10:08

it.

10:10

For smaller samples,

10:14

We put the organisms, something like

10:16

a mosquito into a tube with

10:17

some special digestive juices.

10:20

then we use our power massher

10:22

to swizz the mosquito

10:24

around and disrupt it.

10:30

So after the initial digestion

10:33

or lysis of the

10:35

organism, the samples

10:37

go onto our apex which

10:39

is an automatic DNA

10:41

extraction machine.

10:48

After DNA extraction, we have

10:50

a tube filled with some high

10:52

quality, very pure DNA that's

10:54

very, very long fragments. The

10:57

next thing we need to do is chop that

10:59

DNA into smaller pieces so that

11:01

we can load those smaller pieces onto

11:03

the sequences. We

11:05

use the megarupter to shear the

11:07

DNA into smaller sized

11:09

pieces, ideal for sequencing. Welcome

11:12

to the Meg Proctor three. Starting

11:16

the sharing process.

11:20

So we have here a

11:23

tube of DNA that contains

11:25

the whole genome for a particular

11:27

organism chopped into pieces. We then

11:29

send that through to our sequencing

11:31

teams. And after that, our

11:33

bioinformatics teams build

11:35

back that jigsaw and create

11:37

a whole reference level genome.

11:41

And black and I'm lead on

11:44

the Tree of Life program at the Welcome

11:46

Sanger Institute near Cambridge. We're

11:49

sequencing from all the

11:51

organisms that live in this Atlantic

11:53

archipelago and also the species that live

11:55

in the sea, and so we're sequencing everything.

11:59

So when we're up and running properly,

12:02

which is probably in about three to five years

12:04

time at full speed,

12:06

We hope you're doing about five thousand

12:08

genomes a year, which is a hundred

12:10

genomes a week, which is twenty a

12:12

day, which is four before

12:14

coffee in the morning. At

12:16

times it's daunting, but when you step back and look

12:18

at the possibilities and the the

12:20

delight that we'll be in having the complete

12:22

catalog, it's it's really exciting.

12:28

Why not sequence a few genomes

12:31

while you're brewing your morning coffee?

12:33

You'll easily crack the five

12:35

thousand a

12:35

year. Right? Oh, yeah. A piece of

12:38

cake. There's so much that we can learn

12:40

from having all of those genomes.

12:42

We

12:42

can track the genetic diversity

12:45

of the natural world,

12:47

taking a microscope almost and

12:50

looking at how genetically diverse

12:52

all the individuals are in a

12:54

certain species. And

12:56

the more we under stand the

12:59

genetics of the species that we're

13:01

conserving, the more we can have

13:03

targeted medical

13:05

interventions for them if they

13:07

are sick or if they

13:09

need some sort of veterinary support.

13:10

But it also goes the other way. We

13:13

can use what we learn

13:15

about these animals to find

13:17

new treatments for us. Because

13:19

inside of each species, there

13:22

is a ton of different little

13:24

biological machines that can

13:26

do tasks that sometimes

13:28

prove really helpful to

13:30

curing our diseases as well.

13:32

But they're are some

13:34

questions that I do have, particularly

13:36

about the number of species involved.

13:39

Because to bring us back to the

13:42

balance between order and chaos that

13:44

is at the heart of this episode, figuring

13:47

out what makes one species

13:49

different from another can be

13:51

really tricky. How does the

13:53

team know when they've hit

13:55

seventy thousand species when

13:57

sometimes the line between one species

13:59

and another can be a

14:01

little chaotic. Are we

14:03

dividing that based on whether the

14:05

organisms can reproduce with other

14:07

or how their bodies look like or

14:09

work or their role in the ecosystem

14:11

or, you know, just how

14:13

similar their DNA is on the

14:16

percentage level? I'd

14:17

like to think that they have

14:19

a preexisting list of

14:22

seventy thousand species, known

14:24

species. And anything

14:26

outside of that is almost like

14:28

extra credit or a bonus.

14:32

Will they

14:32

know for sure? Because, oh, well, hold

14:34

on. If someone goes back, it's like, oh, we're at,

14:36

you know, sixty nine thousand nine hundred and

14:38

ninety six. But maybe

14:40

if we say, all species

14:42

is something that's ninety nine point

14:44

eight percent DNA similar, we'll

14:47

hit seventy k tomorrow. We can take the

14:49

day. It's really

14:51

tricky. There are some definitions that

14:53

work more than others. We

14:55

gotta be humble and

14:58

realize, yeah, we can have better definitions. We

15:00

can make better labels. We can have a

15:02

better system. But there's always

15:04

gonna be some fuzziness and

15:06

no one owes us a perfect or

15:08

simple answer.

15:16

Sebastian, have you ever stood

15:19

and watched

15:19

birds in murmuration. Yes.

15:22

There was this one time I was visiting

15:25

my wife's sister in New

15:27

York City and she was in an

15:29

apartment by Central Park and

15:31

was pretty high up and there were these

15:33

huge flocks

15:35

of pigeons that would

15:37

gather on the roofs of other

15:39

buildings. Mhmm. And every now and

15:41

then they'd all take off at once and

15:44

swoop through the air, and

15:46

they move as this one big

15:48

mass. I mean, it almost feels like a

15:50

living giant living thing

15:52

in the way that it moves so smoothly.

15:53

It's just the most incredible

15:56

thing, isn't it? To see all those

15:58

birds, you know, flying together

16:00

moving almost just one block. It

16:02

is truly impressive.

16:08

Mario Pesendorfer is an animal

16:10

behavior scientist and he's been

16:12

paying close attention to

16:14

murmurations for several

16:15

years.

16:17

When

16:18

animals get into large

16:21

groups, funny things

16:22

happen. Many of

16:26

the animals that perform murmurations

16:29

make quite a taste see

16:31

snack to birds of prey or

16:33

other animals of prey. And

16:35

when you group up into large groups,

16:37

you get several benefits. One

16:40

of them is the dilution effect,

16:43

meaning the chance that you are the one

16:45

getting picked off becomes smaller.

16:48

Another effect of a large group

16:50

is the confusion

16:51

effect. When

16:55

humans watch membranes, it is

16:57

very hard to track one individual

16:59

in the sky And the same is true for predators,

17:02

so they have a hard time picking which

17:04

one they will actually try to hit, and then

17:06

they miss most often. And

17:08

finally, you can also hide a little bit. So the

17:10

the mere spatial organization of

17:12

the large group can lead

17:15

to the appearance of a much larger individual,

17:17

you know, instead of a mouse, you

17:19

are now trying to chase an elephant, and

17:21

this may also deter competitors.

17:26

And predation is considered one of the

17:28

main drivers of membranes, but

17:30

there are also other functions So many

17:32

animals perform murmurations

17:34

or these types of

17:37

behaviors before they join a

17:39

communal roost where they sleep

17:41

overnight together.

17:45

One of the fascinating aspects

17:47

of collective

17:48

movement is that

17:50

we have a large group of individuals

17:53

moving in a coordinated manner,

17:55

often without clear

17:57

leadership, know, we don't see a lead

17:59

bird flying in one direction and then

18:01

all other birds following. So in

18:03

the case of Starlings, we don't think that

18:05

there is a group of starlings that

18:07

decides about what we should do or what the group

18:09

should do and all the other starlings follow.

18:12

Rather, it is that you know, a certain

18:14

starling is exposed to a stimulus. For

18:16

example, it is approaching a

18:19

food source or it is It

18:21

perceives the dangerous paragon

18:23

Falcon and mighty aerial predator

18:25

and thus responds in a way that it

18:27

would, on its own, and the birds around

18:29

and do the same. And this behavior

18:31

on one side of the flock then results

18:33

in a wave of behavior that propagates

18:36

through the whole group. And

18:38

this does not just involve a single

18:40

individual around you. For example, in

18:42

Starling Momerations, we know that the

18:45

birds orient themselves on

18:47

the behavior of about six to seven

18:49

individuals that are within their

18:51

field

18:52

of vision. Memorations

18:56

are sort of a unique

18:59

form that we perceive in

19:01

starlings, but grouping behavior and

19:03

moving, collective movement is something that is common

19:05

in the animal kingdom. Humans

19:06

actually display behavior

19:09

that is in some ways akin to

19:12

murmurations.

19:13

And these are

19:15

MOSPits at rock concerts where people

19:17

are knocking each other around and

19:19

sort of like trying to run-in circles.

19:24

Because

19:26

marsh pits are a type of

19:29

collective of several hundred

19:31

humans that arise from very

19:33

simple individual behavioral

19:35

rules and leads to movement

19:37

patterns that know, if you

19:39

look at a mass pit from above, you could almost recognize the

19:42

starling murmuration.

19:48

One of the

19:51

coolest collective movement behaviors

19:53

that I have personally observed

19:55

is that of of flocking in

19:58

crows, adjacent ravens, which are the birds and the

20:00

family of Corvidir.

20:01

Clothes

20:05

in Vienna, Austria, the city

20:07

where I live performed these

20:10

big flights that are akin to murmurations where they funnel

20:12

in the sky often

20:14

up to one two kilometer high

20:16

so that you see thousands

20:18

of birds funneling, so

20:20

flying in a circle above

20:22

a certain area

20:23

of town. And of

20:27

course me

20:29

being a student of animal behavior, I would try

20:31

to find the center of this funnel and stand

20:34

underneath in awe with my

20:36

binoculars trying to point at individual

20:38

birds was which was impossible.

20:42

However, one pattern became very

20:44

clear after standing there for a

20:46

while. This

20:46

funnel seems to be functioning as a

20:49

signal because birds join

20:51

the funnel from all directions in the city.

20:54

However, the leaving stream of

20:56

birds all goes directly to our

20:58

local cemetery. And in the cemetery

21:00

is where there's a very large

21:02

roost where these birds spent

21:04

the night together. So to

21:07

me, it looked as if this was a type of

21:09

information center where the birds were signaling to

21:11

all the crows that intended to sleep

21:13

in this roost. Hey, here's

21:15

our rules. Here's how you're gonna get in. Just kind

21:18

of check-in into our funnel and then you can

21:20

fly out with the group right over

21:22

to the hereditary.

21:28

Observing

21:29

these birds was

21:31

almost as if I was let in on a little bit of their

21:34

secret. When you study

21:36

animal behavior, you're often frustrated by

21:38

the fact that you cannot simply

21:40

go up to a crow and ask it,

21:43

hey, what are you doing and why are

21:45

you doing this? So when

21:47

we're

21:47

left to observe

21:50

impressive behaviors such as these

21:52

murmurations or these bird funnels. You

21:54

know, one begins to ponder and question, well,

21:56

what are they doing? And and maybe

21:58

I have no idea. Maybe this is just an

22:00

ancient ritual that they've been performing for

22:03

many, many centuries and

22:05

for some completely different reason than I'm

22:08

hypothesizing.

22:09

While we may

22:12

study and many of these things

22:14

into great detail and with more

22:16

computer programs and simulations,

22:19

sometimes we just may never get

22:21

the answer and there's something beautiful about that, that the

22:23

mystery of their lives does not

22:25

always need to be fully revealed to

22:27

us.

22:31

I

22:32

wish so much that I could

22:35

ask all these animals, hey,

22:37

excuse me, why are you doing that?

22:39

Tell me right now.

22:40

I know exactly what you mean because I

22:43

used to be so jealous of doctor

22:45

Doolittle when I was a kid because I guess you're

22:47

not, I would just stare

22:49

at

22:49

my dogs waiting for the day that

22:51

they will look at me and open

22:53

their mouth and say

22:56

something. Exactly. And

22:58

I also have, like,

23:01

fears I don't know if any other

23:03

conservationists or behaviors feel this

23:05

way, but I had fears during my

23:07

PhD research that one

23:09

day the elephants I was studying would

23:11

start talking and tell me that all the

23:13

behavior I'd interpret putted them doing

23:15

was wrong. Yeah.

23:16

They just messing

23:18

with you. They just thought it was fun.

23:21

Okay. We'll we'll keep we'll keep an eye on that or an ear

23:23

out for any elephant

23:26

revelations. But so cool when someone like Mario

23:28

can get at least a little bit of

23:30

the mystery resolved. I'm

23:33

fascinated by how such a

23:35

complicated, coordinated behavior

23:38

can happen without each

23:40

bird talking directly to each

23:42

other. They're just paying attention to their

23:44

immediate neighbors and

23:46

just one movement on one side of

23:48

the huge flock can sweep across the

23:51

whole group. Birds

23:53

are not the only animals that move in these huge

23:56

formations. The first were

23:59

insects, may flies, and

24:01

locusts have been doing this for hundreds

24:03

of millions of years, gathering in

24:05

huge numbers, and traveling in

24:08

swarms for a variety of

24:10

reasons. One of those is migration

24:13

looking for new places to live and

24:15

a really interesting example that we can

24:17

see day is in Will the Beast, which

24:20

move in these huge herds across

24:22

hundreds of miles, and

24:24

it seems like they do this in

24:27

response to the weather. It looks

24:29

very

24:29

chaotic up close. These

24:32

enormous herds sweeping across the

24:34

landscape, but if you the

24:36

patterns, it appears that they know where

24:38

to find the luscious grass,

24:40

which grows shortly after

24:41

storms and heavy rains.

24:45

Chris Watson is a wildlife sound

24:47

recordist who has worked on many of the

24:49

BBC's blue chip natural

24:51

history series. Alongside presenters

24:53

such as Sir David Attenborough.

24:57

Over the

24:57

years, I've had many trips

24:59

to the short to grass plains of

25:01

the Massaimara in East Africa

25:03

and Kenya. And

25:05

one of the the

25:06

greatest pieces of behavior

25:09

that that that I've ever witnessed

25:11

is the annual wildebeast

25:14

migration. That's great. Circled

25:16

of life as the wildebeast follow

25:19

the

25:19

new grass and follow the

25:21

food supply as the rains

25:23

carry them around crossed from Kenya

25:26

into Tanzania and then returning

25:28

backwards and forwards across the

25:30

river basin. If

25:32

you look closely at the Willoughby's

25:34

herd, it fills your field of

25:36

view that you can't hear much else

25:38

because of this and rumble that the

25:40

animals communicating in the sound of

25:42

the

25:43

hooves. The

25:52

Rivermark

25:56

present a significant obstacle

25:59

to Willeby's and

25:59

it's a place where they gather in

26:02

their tens and hundreds

26:04

of thousands because crossing the river

26:06

wire is probably the

26:08

most dangerous activity in

26:10

their lives because they

26:12

are preyed upon by

26:14

nile crookedials which inhabit

26:16

the river and wait.

26:36

The only

26:36

way to get close of sound is

26:38

to get the microphones in close.

26:40

So I spent lots

26:42

of time over the years, sort

26:44

of perfecting various techniques, some

26:47

more successful than others. By

26:49

fixing microphones, in places by

26:50

the water's edge on the river Mara or

26:53

in some of the croton thickets, the

26:55

the short vegetation, the

26:57

very stout, sturdy vegetation.

26:59

It's a place where wilderbeast

27:02

wouldn't normally charge through

27:04

because the vegetation is

27:06

very tough. Like very sharp thorns and might have to

27:08

do this in several places and then

27:10

run very long cables, one

27:12

hundred, two hundred meters back to

27:14

our vehicle. But then, of course, to

27:16

bury the cables because they

27:18

will be used with their hooves or other

27:20

animals, grass, squirrels can often

27:22

dig them up.

27:26

It

27:26

can be really satisfying listening back

27:28

to a recording because the power of sound

27:30

just takes me straight back to that place.

27:32

But

27:34

the

27:36

most important thing, most powerful thing, I

27:38

think is stimulates our

27:41

memory and imagination.

27:46

the

28:05

The BBC Earth podcast was hosted

28:08

by me, Rutendo Shackleton.

28:10

And

28:10

me, Sabashna Chaveri.

28:12

Many

28:12

thanks to all our interviewees.

28:15

Liam Crawley, Caroline Howard,

28:17

and

28:17

Mark Blackster from the Darwin Tree

28:19

of Life Project. Mario

28:21

Pessendorfer for his interview about murmurations

28:25

and Chris Watson for his interview

28:27

and the recordings of migrating Wildo

28:29

Beast. The producers are

28:31

Jeff Marsh and Rachel Byrne. The

28:33

researcher is sebormasters. The

28:36

podcast theme music was composed by

28:38

Axel

28:38

Kukutie and mixing

28:40

an additional sound design were done by Peregrine

28:42

and true. The

28:43

production manager is Katherine Stringer and

28:46

the production coordinator is Jemma

28:48

Watson. The

28:48

associate producer is Kristen Kane

28:50

and the executive producer is Deborah

28:52

Dudgeon. The BBC Earth podcast was

28:54

a BBC studio's production for

28:57

BBC Earth.