0:07

Hello and welcome to being well. I'm

0:09

Forrest Hansen if you're needed The show.

0:12

Thanks for listening To Die And if

0:14

you've listened before, welcome back. My guess

0:16

today is Doctor Make J, a developmental

0:18

clinical psychologist who specializes in Twenty somethings.

0:21

She's on faculty at the University of

0:23

Virginia and as the author of a

0:25

number of wonderful books including the Defining

0:27

Decade why Your twenties Matter and How

0:30

To Make the Most of Them Now

0:32

and her new book, the Twenty Something

0:34

Treatment a revolutionary remedy for an uncertain

0:36

age so. Make thanks for doing this with me today!

0:38

How are you? Oh it's it's my pleasure I'm

0:41

thrilled to be her on a big fan

0:43

of the podcast actually said ah the. Giro

0:45

I really appreciate that. I've heard I've happy

0:47

to talk to you. We actually just recorded

0:49

an episode that's on The Things That We

0:51

Wish we knew when we were twenty. Well

0:54

I heard that you had recorded at Yeah

0:56

Sorry. I'm ready to talk about. Other and

0:59

outlet yeah I was in the process of that

1:01

that I bumped into your work and a particularly

1:03

your Tuck which are y thirty is not the

1:05

New Twenty as what it was titled that totally

1:08

blew up. It's become a very very listen to

1:10

to talk and it was a so helpful for

1:12

me as a thirty six year old person to

1:14

like put that decade of time at the context

1:17

and. Also. I'd probably want to be

1:19

apparent at some point and so helping somebody else

1:21

through that moment in time. And. I

1:23

was wondering. Just to start with, i

1:25

would you think the biggest misunderstanding is

1:27

about our twenties. Yeah. Well, I

1:30

love that you said putting it in context

1:32

because that's really what my work is all

1:34

about. So that the new book the twenty

1:36

something treatment at you know subtitles start to

1:38

relatively Sherry Rehman, a blah blah blah and

1:40

the revolutionary remedy as is it hurts. Mental

1:43

Health and context in the context

1:45

of of your twenties. It's not

1:47

just a one size fits all,

1:49

but let's really understand what's going

1:51

on with twenty something so probably

1:53

the most common term as perceptions

1:55

One I tackle. And my first book, The

1:57

Defining Decade as is that. Your twenties don't really. After

2:00

and Thirty The New Twenty. And everybody

2:02

does everything later anyway. so whatever.

2:05

The. Twenty something treatment takes on the misconception

2:07

that your twenties are going to be

2:09

the best years of your life. That.

2:11

They're gonna be a lot of fun and

2:14

that twenty something. To are struggling are

2:16

just snowflakes are they have serious

2:18

mental illness arm but really normalizing

2:21

the fact that your twenties or

2:23

actually incredibly difficult. Decade and their

2:25

that mental health low. Point Of

2:28

Life. I'm sorry to say the good news

2:30

is that life gets better. You're probably already

2:32

experiencing. That in your thirties you know we say

2:34

the twenties are going to be the best years

2:37

your life. I tell my clients if your twenties

2:39

turn out to be the best years of realize

2:41

something has gone terribly wrong that you want life.

2:43

To. Get better as you go. Yeah.

2:46

That's that's certainly been my experience. My

2:48

twenty our word good at Subway of

2:50

would really yeah, really raw home otherwise

2:52

total A as with a thing as

2:54

I could buy a lot of people.

2:57

And one of the things that you hear

2:59

people say and maybe we're we're going to

3:01

or previous book a little bit. here is

3:04

some version of you have so much freedom

3:06

He said just enjoy this moment and life.

3:09

And. There's a general tendency I think that

3:11

older people have to tend to minimize the

3:13

problems of a twenty three year old because

3:15

they they feel to that fifty six year

3:17

old like just kind of still a pupil.

3:19

And don't worry, you'll figure it out at

3:21

some point. A little crazier. And

3:23

what's the actual lived experience that clients tend to

3:25

bring into your office? Yeah. So

3:28

I'm a little spoiler alert for listeners

3:30

who have twenty something children are twenty

3:32

somethings in their lives. The worst thing

3:34

is intended to a twenty something is

3:36

oh, you're fine. You've got all the

3:38

time. In the world your figure it out

3:40

it's is unhelpful thought. very specific advice. And

3:42

so I think the thing to understand

3:44

about the twenties as yes, it's a

3:46

time have. Club. Exploration

3:49

and for young. But I mean let's remember

3:51

most twenty somethings are broke. It's hard to

3:53

find jobs. I'm is not just like and

3:55

the world. Is there oyster in or out

3:57

there exploring? So it's It's a really difficult

3:59

time. The all that freedom also means. Uncertainty.

4:03

So jobs are uncertain, relationships

4:05

are uncertain cities, Friends. Mental.

4:08

Health, the future, Finances. Everything

4:10

is uncertain in your twenties.

4:12

And the brain hates uncertainty.

4:14

so the brain is going

4:16

to read that as danger

4:18

as catastrophe as anxiety as

4:20

panic. So. It's not a lot

4:22

of fun to wake up in the morning and not

4:24

no way in a live in five years or what

4:26

you're going to do or if anybody's gonna love you

4:28

whether you're. Gonna be happy and you know

4:30

now that the adult milestones or kind of

4:33

happening later in life most people don't start

4:35

waking up can a know and like I

4:37

generally know how my life is gonna go

4:39

at this point that doesn't usually come now

4:41

until. Our. thirties. Which.

4:43

Makes our twenties actually quite difficult. They

4:45

might sound good to sort of club

4:48

not have to worry about all that

4:50

stuff that twenty somethings are worrying. A

4:52

was. About not having any

4:54

of that stuff. Yeah.

4:57

One of the things that really stood

4:59

out to me him your work in

5:02

general, in your book, in particular, is

5:04

that uncertainty is particularly stressful, and we.

5:07

Lack. Confidence in our own abilities, And.

5:09

We had a recent episode on on

5:11

self abandonment and creating a self concept

5:13

as like something from which you can

5:15

derive safety. Because. Most of the

5:17

time they social animals and we we

5:19

think about the world as like we're

5:22

safe or were capable based on what

5:24

we're doing with or for other people.

5:26

Or. Maybe as a marker of identity like

5:28

I am. A fill in the blank and

5:31

therefore I can be safer, comfortable or whatever

5:33

does. And I just louder yeah, you're located

5:35

in this. Where if you're twenty

5:37

three years old, you don't necessarily have all

5:39

of those markers that somebody else might have

5:42

from which you are. You're. Getting that

5:44

security and so you feel kind of on more than

5:46

that sort of zola. Absolutely that

5:48

it's It's not just it's uncertainty on the

5:50

outside of the know, my job is unstable

5:52

and the climate is unstable on I haven't

5:54

found my purse, I'm in. There's a lot

5:56

of that on the outside that there's also

5:58

so much uncertainty on that. Then side

6:00

because people don't minutes. of

6:02

the years where you're building, but that means you

6:05

don't yet have. Some. Sort of in

6:07

turtle sources of feeling sure of. Yourself,

6:09

I can count on myself that Okay,

6:11

even if I lose this job, I

6:13

can get another one even of this

6:15

relationship ends of thin through this. before

6:17

that the data points aren't they are.

6:19

so there's just not. That internal sense

6:21

of safety. And that's really what a

6:24

lot of the work I do with

6:26

twenty somethings. As about his, let's help

6:28

you sort of get says external and

6:30

internal sources of. Security.

6:33

You know, help you build those

6:35

skills. Saw relationships, friendships, communiques and

6:37

all that. But. What happens then

6:39

as you well know is and people internalize

6:41

as as a sense of like in town

6:43

on myself I can't make the world. See.

6:46

Perfect are certain or go the way.

6:48

whatever. But I can count on myself. And

6:51

understandably, most twenty four year

6:53

olds. Aren't. Ceiling that way

6:55

as so it's very difficult. every

6:57

time something goes wrong, it's. It's

7:00

seals catastrophic. Would really

7:02

stands out to me about your

7:04

work and Generals your emphasis on

7:06

intentionality. And how yes we can

7:08

have a moment in time where we we have

7:10

a lot of freedom or a lot of enjoyment,

7:12

A lot of exploration. whatever it as that's happening in

7:15

your life, Maybe. You don't have as

7:17

much of those things because as you said, you're

7:19

broke about certain and don't know what's going on.

7:21

But hey, there's probably some of that. But you

7:23

can do it intentionally. You can do it with

7:25

a sort of deliberate approach, That. Frame said

7:27

in the broader context of like hopefully a

7:29

pretty long life so stuff isn't just happening

7:31

peo and I think that that reference and

7:34

frame and is the real distinction that that

7:36

you make in a lot of your work.

7:38

Thank you. Yeah, it's it's really a sense

7:41

of that. Mean it, it's it's. A.

7:43

Think says to go from being in school

7:45

or college where there's a syllabus and it

7:47

says do this in this order and if

7:49

you do it to this level you'll get

7:51

a day or a be. That

7:53

then suddenly in your twenties. There's. No

7:55

syllabus. There's no schedule degrading scheme

7:57

as what you decide it is.

8:00

And. So I think. Often. Twenty

8:02

somethings. Are left feeling like why don't really

8:05

know. I'm. I'm kind of waiting

8:07

for a silly says so really know

8:09

how to do this and this that

8:11

sisters Oh actually this is your life.

8:13

You get to decide what's on the

8:16

syllabus, what's a what are you trying

8:18

to achieve and what are you waiting

8:20

for said you know most growth and

8:22

change that happens and. Adult had happens

8:24

from twenty to thirty, but it doesn't

8:26

happen sitting at home. Usually you gotta

8:28

sorta get out in the world. And

8:31

interact with experiences and

8:33

build skills. So. You've got

8:35

this intersection of factors at this particular

8:37

moment in time. There's a lot a

8:39

developmental pressure gone on your brain is still change

8:41

time when you're twenty years old at. The.

8:44

An of this is more complicated than this.

8:46

but like in general, by the time you

8:48

had your late twenties or most people's brains

8:50

have largely stopped it's primary develop man. settle

8:52

down. The I settled down a lot better.

8:54

I era size is complicated. We don't a

8:57

juggler run by, just relax and more or

8:59

less. Yeah yeah, now years you're right on.

9:01

A cat great and so that's happening. Then

9:03

you've got this sort of general uncertainty that

9:05

people are dealing with. They've acquired a set

9:07

of skills, generally three school. If live in

9:09

the Western world, those skills may or may

9:12

not have a lot of flexibility to the.

9:14

Actual work that you're doing in your life these

9:16

days. Not. Which we

9:18

can disguise said. he said really bad

9:20

at them and you've been really good

9:22

at may be are doing pretty well

9:24

in school or a some the past

9:26

or whatever and and you walk out

9:28

of the world and discover that all

9:30

of that accomplishment that very particular set

9:32

of skills may or may not matter

9:34

that much. Actually, it turns out. You.

9:37

May or may not have a secure

9:39

primary partner. Or. Really any kind

9:41

of love life at all. I talked to some of

9:43

my early twenties frames and they're like mandating as a

9:46

jungle out there at best. And

9:49

mix with that, you have this

9:51

underlying sense of self concept issues

9:53

you're still figuring out internally, who

9:55

you are, how you feel, what

9:57

you value. All of that. And

10:00

layered on top of that. For a lot

10:02

of young people these days, there is a

10:04

lot of nihilism about the nature of the

10:07

world. I would say. Quite. Understandably

10:09

whether it is fears about climate

10:11

change. Looking at the broader political

10:13

climate, the economic world that people

10:15

are entering these days, a lot

10:17

of uncertainty there. And so

10:19

there's this kind of stack of a sort of

10:21

throw. My hands are like what are we are

10:23

doing here and layered on top of all of

10:26

that. And. I'm wondering what the impact

10:28

of that part of it is? that kind

10:30

of do maria stick approach that I could

10:32

hear sort of com into the way that

10:34

some of my like maybe twenty three year

10:36

old friends talk about the world, the impact

10:38

that that has on people's mental health and

10:40

development, and just like what they can get

10:43

out of this moment in time. Yeah.

10:45

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've heard

10:47

somebody say, well, what if I do All this. And

10:49

not world ends and five years and it up.

10:51

My response is a way to die than one

10:53

of the i didn't exactly thing. And then

10:55

word, then when you can add so

10:58

we don't really know. But you

11:00

know, I think whether it's the

11:02

pandemic or recessions or climate. Change

11:04

or you know I have

11:06

cancer. Or my parents as l A mean

11:08

we just have to say rather than what

11:11

is this problem doing. To me, what am

11:13

I gonna do about it and that you.

11:15

Know all we can do is what we

11:17

can do and engage with. our lives are

11:19

the communities around us or whatever way we

11:21

can touch the world. That.

11:23

That's the only way things have

11:25

fend for ourselves or for others.

11:27

But I think there is sort

11:29

of a misconception. Which. I really

11:32

understand that. I remember feeling this way

11:34

in my twenties where you sort of

11:36

imagine blue suit everybody else is. Twenties

11:38

were perfectly set up that mine. Have

11:40

gone sideways and you know it's been

11:42

this way for many decades now that

11:44

twenty something sort of graduate into a

11:47

mass ends You know that that his.

11:49

Inner sense or inner and outer senses

11:51

of security. The partner, the house, the

11:53

job, that perspective of having kids, etc.

11:56

You know, they're hanging out at about

11:58

eight thirty the and beyond now. So

12:00

from twenty to thirty year to slip

12:03

in, this. In a very

12:05

open space which the brain interprets

12:07

as. Very scary and dangerous and

12:09

I totally get it. But you know one

12:11

of the skills that people learn by being

12:14

twenty somethings. Today's they figure out how do

12:16

they say okay, what am I gonna do

12:18

What can I do today. Cecile.

12:20

A little more sure of myself or to

12:23

improve my situation some that i them next

12:25

to this that different about is the most

12:27

Ebola fact. Which. Is essentially the opposite

12:29

of the placebo effect. Could you explain that?

12:31

Roka. Yeah. I love than to

12:34

see those act and I and I need to

12:36

get that out there more to do. Try to

12:38

do an aunt that on that specific piece first.

12:40

And second one. So. The placebo effect

12:42

as. You know? I'm sure Listers

12:44

now is. It's basically the power of

12:46

positive expectations. That if you believe that

12:48

you're probably gonna get better and

12:50

that your situation. Or your life or your

12:53

illness or whatever is going to get better. That

12:55

helps. And it's not just. Like.

12:57

False you know such as magical

12:59

thinking. It actually helps you rain

13:02

prepare to get better and helps

13:04

you engage and getting better, etc.

13:06

So that we get that, that's the

13:08

placebo effect. Than the Ceo

13:10

of fact as the power of negative

13:12

expectations. And so this comes up a

13:14

lot. I. Think when young adults

13:16

are quick to. Try.

13:19

To look for order amongst the problems.

13:21

That they're having and they say

13:23

I have access attachment style or

13:25

I have major depressive disorder or

13:27

I have generalized anxiety and you

13:29

know we can talk about whether

13:31

diagnoses are aren't helpful but it's

13:33

deathly not helpful when people interpret

13:35

what's happening. Solely as a problem

13:38

with and them their disorder their

13:40

abnormal. Their brain is dysfunctional and

13:42

it's always going. To be that

13:44

way that's where than the see both

13:46

that comes and so often times in

13:49

all here twenty something say well I

13:51

have this thing you know I have

13:53

anxious attachment or I. Am. Depressed.

13:55

I'll always be depressed when the

13:57

literature actually suggests. Otherwise, That.

14:00

Most people who are depressed say they

14:02

are not always depress. That depression can

14:04

come and go throughout life, usually because.

14:07

Difficult. Things. Come and

14:09

go throughout life. Most of my twenty

14:11

somethings you tell me they have anxious

14:14

attachments. Style do not have an anxious

14:16

attachment sol there in a state of.

14:19

Anxious attachment there. You know they're

14:21

feeling anxious about their relationship, but

14:24

this is not their style so

14:26

I really try to help. Twenty

14:28

somethings kind of slow the role

14:30

on the diagnoses. And and if they

14:32

do have them to symbolically that what this means

14:34

is that means you check the right boxes in

14:37

the Dsm. He. We can give you

14:39

the label that depression gets better, Anxiety

14:41

gets better. Attachment changes more in your

14:43

twenties. And any other time and life. So it's

14:45

like it's hung up on. What this means

14:48

for your the end of the next city years

14:50

ago life. Of love to talk

14:52

with you about this little bit because he's

14:54

such an expert of ad and I find

14:56

this whole thing super interesting and I'm also

14:58

I philo implicated in it. As somebody who

15:00

creates mental health contents, you know, maybe I'll

15:03

be out of the problem of a little

15:05

bit over here. So what I mean by

15:07

the while? you're also part of this illusion?

15:09

Yeah, that's where we try to forget about

15:11

Best Buy it. There's been a huge rise

15:14

in the creation of mental health content. And

15:16

the last, yes, Five. To ten

15:18

years it's an enormous explosion in it

15:20

and I would argue that by enlarge

15:22

this is great thing. For. Starters: Free

15:24

resources are great. It's really good to

15:26

have access to high quality information that

15:29

you part of that is high quality.

15:31

And out there have been a lot

15:33

of knock on effects from the spread

15:36

of mental health information alongside as a

15:38

kind of casual diagnosis that can occur

15:40

particularly through platforms like Tic Toc where

15:43

there is a lot of silo and

15:45

that happens in the content of privacy.

15:47

yeah. So. You

15:49

see a person with a particular kind of

15:51

issue, you feel like you have a sense

15:54

of empathy for that issue in your own

15:56

life. They say that they have so in

15:58

the blank type nurses. Bi Borderline

16:00

Anxiety eighty Hd Autism Spectrum Disorders

16:03

whatever it might be, Therefore,

16:05

I must have that sector. That. becomes

16:07

a marker of identity. The saying chefs from

16:10

something that is happening to you or a

16:12

temporary experience to like we were talking about

16:14

earlier and aspect of identity it stops being

16:17

something that's going on to something that you

16:19

are. And. That shift is a very powerful

16:21

set for people. as you know better than I

16:23

do. So. That's my kind of

16:25

like one second treatment of the whole thing

16:28

our our their love you I read miles

16:30

an hour times. On accepted that's perfect. I

16:32

mean out we want gets you into social

16:34

media but I will say I'm the last

16:36

person. On Earth to finally joined social

16:39

media, and I was like literally two

16:41

weeks ago or something, but I was

16:43

lying low on social media. A

16:46

million years because I felt like in

16:48

general, my clients don't really want to

16:50

bump into be there since said books

16:52

may sound. I think I think that. Was

16:54

very true. In the early

16:56

days. But now see your point. This

16:58

is where. The majority of. Twenty.

17:01

Somethings are getting their education and

17:03

their news and their information. And

17:05

I firmly believe this is why

17:07

write books. That education as an

17:09

intervention that many of my clients.

17:11

They don't need diagnoses, they don't

17:13

need medication, They need better information.

17:15

And I'm not saying everybody but

17:17

many many people say it's certainly

17:19

better information. So I'm trying to

17:21

see part of that better information

17:23

to and I know. You are

17:26

so. Now. I don't remember where

17:28

we are going. With this other than to say

17:30

yea, eyes are being part of that better

17:32

information. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe you'll actually

17:34

asked requested year instead of just like vivor

17:36

got a topic, But so I'm I'm I'm

17:39

sick of my partner here. Elizabeth. So Elizabeth

17:41

as thirty two years old, she's an associate

17:43

therapist also. see. Oh nice. Yeah, see. Exeter

17:45

grad program about a year and a half

17:47

ago says earning hours towards her license. And.

17:50

See was late diagnosis a Phd.

17:54

No brainer. Hole in

17:56

One Eighty Sti diagnosis of she had received it when

17:58

she was eight years old. Little bit. More complicated

18:00

as we now, and they're receiving at

18:02

when they're when you're thirty years old,

18:04

right? See Started doing a very low

18:06

dose of adderall. This was immensely helpful

18:08

for her. Yes, I'm time to time,

18:11

I'm sure. Yeah, toddler. So. There

18:13

can be huge benefits to people having access

18:15

to information. Having access to a diagnosis of

18:17

that good right? For some people. But.

18:20

There's a balance there between that. And.

18:22

When walks into your office I'd imagine

18:24

a lot of the time which is

18:26

somebody saying hey doctor I have anxiety

18:28

disorder and major depressive disorder and I

18:30

should probably go on order line. Personality

18:32

disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder wire a rare

18:34

As I said why are we are

18:36

in other in here I'm just messing

18:38

around like what can I write you

18:40

arm and I'm ran wondering how you

18:42

think about the balance between those two

18:44

things. Yeah and then we can talk.

18:46

May be about helping the person in the second

18:48

category which is most people. I. Am

18:51

the first to say and I say it many

18:53

times. And the twenty something. Treatment I

18:55

have worked as helpless. Twenty.

18:57

Somethings and younger than that. Folks

19:00

who had a D H D

19:02

and a diagnosis and the proper

19:04

medication is crucial. To. Their survival

19:06

three school which is very shaming and

19:09

blaming place to be when you have

19:11

a D h d and if they

19:13

manage to get through school then in

19:15

other twenties is. Enough to be

19:17

a very liberating time when you can sort

19:19

of have your life match you a little

19:21

that have that's your brain more and it's

19:23

opens up a whole new states air. But

19:25

there are certain struggles. In L

19:28

won't try to pin it down exactly.

19:30

and plus another psychiatrists and psychologists that

19:32

a. D H D True as a C D

19:34

of course bi. Medication.

19:37

As a must. But in

19:39

those situations, medication is never

19:41

the only. Intervention.

19:43

It's always medication plus. Skills.

19:46

And. For. You.

19:49

Know many of the other problems that twenty

19:51

somethings have. Even something you can diagnose

19:53

and. The. Dsm, Some major

19:55

depression medication may or may

19:57

not be. Helpful or it

19:59

depends. On whether the upsides outweigh

20:01

the downsides are the side effects,

20:04

and we also have to remember

20:06

that oftentimes. Thus, Saying that

20:08

someone's depressed about a break up as

20:10

the number one precursor to feeling depressed

20:12

and being diagnosed with major depression in

20:15

your twenties. That's going to

20:17

get better. You want to help somebody?

20:19

Learn. How to grieve and cope with laws and

20:22

figure out how to move on? And

20:24

that's really where the healing comes from.

20:26

Not from the medication per se. So

20:28

it is. I mean everybody. Wants to know

20:30

when I was right of into a something treatment mad? A

20:32

rule yeah but when two people they do

20:34

with a don't get diagnosed or go on

20:36

medication and I said well this is not

20:38

a if I can't put that in. A

20:40

book chapter? or you know. But of

20:42

course the answer is. Find.

20:44

The best! Therapist or Psychiatrists you

20:47

can. To get obsessed answer to that

20:49

question. But this is what so unfortunate

20:51

about our mental health system that is

20:53

not accessible for most people. Took.

20:55

A really qualified professional Who

20:57

can say. Yes, You

21:00

have a D H D or know.

21:02

I think you got into some really

21:04

bad habits. And the pandemic. And if

21:06

you haven't, Sort of gotten your life

21:08

in order and let's not jump to

21:10

conclusions, etc. If. You could

21:12

kids every twenty something person. One thing

21:15

about like the nature of mental illness

21:17

to censor like how it works, What

21:19

would it be? I. Think

21:21

the biggest misunderstanding is that.

21:24

Twenty somethings feel a lot more

21:26

disordered than they are, and I

21:28

include people who tap who meet

21:30

criteria for x. Y Z, You know that?

21:33

you know? I think a lot of folks with a

21:35

D H D for example who have the right diagnosis.

21:37

They feel more disordered. Than.

21:40

They suez and that a lot of

21:42

what's going on, even for folks with

21:44

a D H. D or a Cd

21:46

in their twenties is situational. It will

21:48

get better. Your skills will get better.

21:50

You'll be able to surround yourself with

21:52

the right work for you, in the

21:54

right people for you, and the right

21:56

situations for you and your mental health.

21:59

Can. Improve is what I really. Hate

22:02

to see is twenty somethings sort of.

22:05

You know, like you said, so eloquently

22:07

in of getting that, a diagnosis and

22:09

their identity all tangled up together prematurely

22:11

Because and what happens is, you know,

22:14

sort of assortative mating where we kind

22:16

of huddle up and cuddle up with

22:18

people with the same perceived problems. And

22:21

we forget to connect with people who

22:23

share our strengths. Will. Be

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26:19

So you just said assortative mating which is

26:21

a great piece of terminology for starters, and

26:23

I think it also connects to a very

26:25

important point that you make. An

26:27

at least the most recent book a belief. Also

26:29

the but before that it's well which is about

26:32

the strength of week ties. Essentially.

26:34

How we tend to cluster with people:

26:36

A relatively small group of people, but

26:38

most of the positive change that happens

26:40

and people's life. Tends. To come

26:43

from outside of that group of they want

26:45

to make a meaningful change because those outside

26:47

people have less similarities and I'm wondering a

26:49

think about that and how. You. Help

26:51

people access those week Ties. You

26:54

know I love you. Just did something that

26:56

nobody has done before. I'm not sure I

26:58

had consciously decided as it is that you

27:00

just connected the week ties in. the. Defining

27:03

decade with part of what I'm arguing for

27:05

the twenty something treatments. I'll explain. That to

27:07

your listeners who were talking inside baseball here

27:09

but week size are you know the people

27:11

that you don't know? Well, they're the friend

27:14

a friend and the neighbors. Cousin and your

27:16

old remade the to never talk to anymore the

27:18

people. Outside of the inner circle and

27:20

in the defining decade, I talked a

27:22

lot about how new jobs, new apartments,

27:24

new dates, new information, new ideas they

27:27

come from outside the inner circle of

27:29

the inner circle or just chatting with

27:31

them all the time. Same stuff over

27:33

and over, so we're not learning. About

27:36

New Opportunities was really the focus

27:38

and the defining decade that you're

27:40

absolutely right, That and the twenty

27:42

something treatment something similar goes on

27:44

with Mental health said if we

27:46

see ourselves as depressed or as

27:48

anxious or as eating disordered or

27:50

whatever you know, like you said,

27:52

tic toc is gonna silas that

27:54

way that we silo ourselves where

27:56

we think will the only people

27:58

who can understand me or. The other

28:00

people who are depressed or other people

28:02

who were anxious and so we. You.

28:04

Know sort of these other pieces of ourselves.

28:07

our strength, all the things we're doing right,

28:09

The places where we're not struggling, those aren't

28:11

getting. The. Attention in the

28:13

air time and sort of the

28:15

connections outward. The. Piece. of

28:17

ourselves that we feel as disorders. Even

28:20

though do think. Groups can be

28:22

very useful for twenty somethings when they're

28:24

struggling with x, y or z a

28:27

really course, and twenty somethings against making

28:29

their disorder. The. Basis of

28:31

their social. World.

28:33

And kind of the only way they're working

28:36

to understand themselves. Like. With

28:38

anything, there's a balance. Their aspects of

28:40

identity and being around people who share

28:42

aspects of identity can be incredibly powerful

28:44

for people, right? And a silver like

28:46

be supported in that experience to get

28:48

of as censored Empathy like this is

28:51

all grade and I'd I'd. Really?

28:53

Want to emphasize that and at the

28:55

same time I do sympathies of Rural

28:57

Point about get new content in the

28:59

system if you can. Is. Really

29:01

important just because if you keep on messing

29:04

with the same in, you can have the

29:06

same outposts over a one puree. I write

29:08

a little all you need a little new

29:10

material, a bear. the Khyber riders it up

29:12

if nothing else the first hand and that

29:14

god also frankly, like a lot harder during

29:16

the Panda Back for a lot of people.

29:18

Yeah, I'm fully silent during a period of

29:20

time, of course. Well and you know

29:22

what else I think helps? With twenty

29:24

somethings with that is. Connecting.

29:27

More with people of other ages. the

29:29

Ten: When you think about it, when

29:31

you go through school, everybody is like

29:33

the exact same year and age as

29:35

here. If everybody you know it's it's

29:37

a very horizontal. And I

29:40

think there's still little that have that

29:42

mentality with you know, understandably, the twenty

29:44

somethings there. Used to talking to people their

29:46

age plus or minus one year. A

29:49

name is how can about go talked assist

29:51

year olds I get that may not seem

29:53

interesting but just talking to people five years.

29:56

Older. Than you are. You.

29:58

Know can be enormously. Helpful

30:00

because they've been there recently, but they've

30:02

found a way to a better spot

30:04

at work. Or different way of

30:06

viewing. Their mental health in other

30:08

actually having success with partners that

30:11

you can kind of imagine like

30:13

oh my life might actually. Had

30:15

upward from here. Some. The

30:18

we've been talking about. Throughout.

30:20

And Little Less is just like the nature

30:22

of how we view ourselves. self concept. And

30:25

something that's pretty common for people who

30:27

are twenty four. twenty five years old

30:29

is some version of of with a

30:32

my call like having an identity crisis.

30:34

And. There are credit to reasons that people

30:37

can have an identity crisis and. Help

30:39

me out here as well. You'd like to add

30:41

anything out of this less. the first one is

30:43

that they don't have a lot of would you

30:45

call identity capital. Which. Is basically

30:47

the stuff that you accrue to figure

30:50

out who you are. And.

30:52

The second reason that some because have an identity crisis

30:54

and everly bumped into this one in my life. Is

30:57

because they feel a sense of tension. Between.

31:00

Who they are and what they really want to

31:02

do. And. What they feel like

31:04

they should be doing or where they

31:06

feel like they should be unlocks. whom.

31:10

I can be a really hard experience to go

31:12

through and. For people who are M,

31:14

maybe that first bucket we can start with

31:16

the like lack of accruing identity capital. What

31:18

are some of the things that can help

31:20

out with that. Yeah. So that

31:22

identity capital is is a concept.

31:25

not mine James Cody from Canada

31:27

but up. Popularized. And

31:29

I think in the defining decades but

31:31

it's really about he can't figure out

31:33

in I think twenty something sank ominous.

31:35

Figure out who I'm gonna be once

31:38

and forever and then I'll go do

31:40

it that you access is secured. the

31:42

had out without doing. Stuff or that's great

31:44

Point select the directions wrong you know the ideas as

31:46

you'll have the thought and that will lead to an

31:48

action but the reality as you the to do the

31:51

axe him in the than you'll figure out how you

31:53

feel about it. right? And we know

31:55

that on average Now speaking in our the

31:57

uncertainty and or member of i rambled off

31:59

as. Factoid earlier, but twenty somethings will

32:01

have nine jobs by the age of

32:04

thirty five. so it it's There's a

32:06

lot they're out there are close to

32:08

their adding one Cf. oh I think

32:10

I had a non jobs at one

32:12

time at one point when I was

32:15

in my twenties so I encourage twenty

32:17

somethings Muslim. He also add most and

32:19

up. And careers or positions that

32:21

they'd never heard. Of when they

32:23

were in college or that didn't exist so

32:26

has said that the asking a twenty year.

32:28

Old Or even a twenty five year old. What Are you

32:30

gonna be? Always and forever? Say don't even

32:32

know what they don't know in terms of

32:34

what's possible. So it's the answer is always.

32:37

What? Do you think of some useful

32:39

capital letter? the skills or experiences that

32:41

you think you need next? And go

32:43

do that for a year. Then

32:46

after a year figure out do I need

32:48

more of that? Do I need to pivot

32:50

and get some different? I don't need capital

32:52

that if you go through your twenties basically

32:54

building skills, earning identity, cast an old and

32:57

than this will build. To. Something

32:59

to be. You know your

33:01

identity, but you can't really.

33:04

Figure. It out the other way around.

33:06

I mean, we know that the learning

33:08

curve in your twenties, maps on and

33:10

tear. Earning curve in your thirties and

33:12

beyond. And as a psychologist or not

33:14

just about the money else, I mean

33:16

earning in terms of confidence, competence. etc.

33:18

etc. So my advice to twenty

33:20

somethings. Is get out there and.

33:23

Learn and earn in terms of

33:25

identity capital and that that will

33:28

com pounds. I don't

33:30

know quite the right way to ask this question

33:32

so again maybe oh how to how the out

33:34

with of here go for a our readers to

33:36

sort of this this tension that comes up and

33:38

maybe this is in a way we're talking to

33:41

different approaches, different cause of psychology in some sense

33:43

where some people have what I would describe as

33:45

more of an accent orientation. You

33:47

know? hey? Go. Out into the

33:49

world, get some experiences. Those experiences will

33:51

feed your behavior and all of these

33:54

positive feedback loops. In overtime you'll feel

33:56

better about yourself because you're doing stuff

33:58

that's really great. Somebody could

34:00

be listen to this and censor themselves.

34:02

Some version of that sounds really good.

34:05

But. I just really struggled to do that. There's.

34:08

Some kind of and miss soul. Spark

34:11

that people often need. To.

34:13

Move Into that behavior. And

34:16

then once they can access the behavior, everything

34:18

does change for them. might move. You gotta

34:20

have that spark to it's the combination of

34:22

these two. Thanks! So there's this sort of

34:25

mysterious pixie dust like him credit happen to

34:27

people were one day they just sort of

34:29

a weight cop. And all of a

34:31

sudden they can do the same. Like you tell the

34:34

story I'm I'm the butter This, but you tell a

34:36

story in the book where you were working with somebody

34:38

who. Thought. That they were failing

34:40

out of a class and they were were

34:42

paralyzed about going to the class and than

34:44

one day they were able to go to

34:46

that class. They were able to open the

34:48

door and walk in the throne. Am I'm

34:50

wondering what you think helps people. What?

34:52

Would they be to do with a d to accrue

34:54

What helps them get to that point where they can

34:57

like flip the switch on that way. Now

35:00

that's a good question. I see. I'm I'm.

35:02

Remembering the person I was talking about and

35:04

in the book and actually have some i

35:06

am i practice right now his are struggling

35:08

to get. That her first job

35:10

since the Pandemic I'm in. She was

35:12

working remotely and we can talk. About

35:14

how lousy that usually end up feeling

35:16

for twenty somethings. But anyways, trying to

35:19

get back in the game and it's

35:21

very hard to see fills out of

35:23

the game and she's upset and crying

35:25

every day. and in our I think

35:27

the people around her are sort of

35:29

alarm that she's crying every day and

35:32

I feel a lot of empathy. Yeah,

35:34

that's also where change comes from of

35:36

that isn't this is no good as

35:38

it doesn't feel good. this isn't working.

35:41

I. Think. This. Is sort of what's

35:43

making her allies. Yeah, as scary as it

35:45

is to get out there and try to

35:47

get that job, Avoiding it

35:49

is not working at all. And

35:52

so I think that's what happened with. The

35:54

person. You're talking about from the twenty

35:57

something treatment he was have felt like

35:59

had sale. The at school and was

36:01

a disappointment and that it never happened before

36:03

and wanted to avoid and avoid and avoid.

36:06

but that was you know, making him feel

36:08

very depressed and stay in bed. And

36:10

he really did drag himself into my office

36:12

on several occasions and I think it was

36:14

through our conversations and again I didn't

36:16

say anything magical i have no no magic

36:19

passwords that I just kept saying. Is.

36:21

Just gotta so up. You gotta walk through

36:23

the door. You've gotta go talk to your

36:25

professors. Tell him what's going on and

36:27

after a few times he believed me

36:29

I guess and went to try it.

36:31

And then of course the professor said

36:33

oh gosh, I did All I struggled

36:35

like this and worse and college and

36:37

I'm happy to help and to set

36:39

data point That experience. I mean yeah,

36:41

it's like how to people have that first when. That

36:44

first data point where they. Learn Oh.

36:47

It's okay to ask for help. This

36:49

will go well. or oh, my boss

36:51

sent me an angry email but I

36:53

didn't get fired. It's okay, you know

36:56

that we all have those first experiences

36:58

were a brain learns okay that not

37:00

so bad. I can keep do enough.

37:02

But you're right, it's that. First.

37:04

Getting out. It's. A challenge that's

37:06

often where I come in, or hopefully where. My

37:09

books and your podcast that man. Yeah, I think

37:11

that you are speaking to something here that's

37:13

really important, which is that relational aspect of

37:15

us. That. Person the had an interaction

37:17

with you that went well you know

37:19

you gave them some good emotional support

37:21

and maybe they needed multiple cycles of

37:24

that is most people do to get

37:26

to point where they felt like they

37:28

had approved the safety essentially like of

37:30

built up the safety experiences have a

37:32

off of a a sealed around bad

37:34

what they want to brag room to

37:36

protect themselves emotionally and so maybe one

37:38

of the kinda lessons from that is

37:41

looking for different kinds of positive relationship.

37:44

Some people can get them from a therapist because

37:46

they have access. At as you are saying earlier,

37:48

access is really hard so there are other ways

37:50

that you have to look around for that kind

37:52

of support of relationship and most people can find

37:54

you know one or two of a really good

37:57

looking for them. And. Then it's interesting.

37:59

I mean people. Our our I mean

38:01

people are amazing. It a male hundred

38:03

percent agree with you that relationships are

38:05

t but because not everyone. Can have

38:07

one with us therapist in a part

38:10

of what I do is really help.

38:12

Readers. Clients. Students

38:15

anyone have better relationships.

38:18

With others, the people in their

38:20

lives, friends, family, partners. what have

38:22

you? Mean I say of says i'm

38:24

the best relationship and my clients life and

38:26

I'm not doing my job that you know

38:28

ideally they would be if they would have

38:30

people in there. Was it say get ago

38:33

when they're talks your professor you you can

38:35

do this. It's gonna be okay. Say.

38:37

Said need me and so I

38:39

try to help people cultivate those

38:41

relationships outside my office. Do.

38:44

Think that there is a

38:46

com him. Common. Behavior that

38:48

people in their twenties have attempts to get

38:50

in the way of the. Avoidance

38:53

of for them. And it's in

38:55

avoidance and it's not. It's really

38:57

not necessarily a twenty something behavior,

38:59

but it's the most common response

39:02

to uncertainty and anxiety, which we've

39:04

already talked about. Uncertainty. Feel like

39:06

danger? When. We feel danger.

39:08

we tend to avoid any so

39:11

people kind of hide behind. Their.

39:14

Computer or start going

39:16

to class or don't.

39:18

Ask someone else are they hang out on

39:20

porn instead of braving real life relationships? And

39:22

so it's It is a lot of avoidance

39:25

that happens in our twenties, especially so I

39:27

think a lot of what I do is

39:29

helping people figure out what are you trying

39:31

to accomplish. In these ways and

39:33

how can we help you accomplish? That said,

39:35

a little bit more of a list. Interactive

39:38

way. And health

39:40

reform manner social anxiety allow I. Love

39:43

that's a great. Topic. Because

39:45

all yeah, I've got a doesn't do

39:47

the context always so I don't even

39:49

like the term. So. Angry. I'm

39:52

not. uprising. Lakes I'll send when

39:54

at my my clients who often come

39:56

in and they say I have social

39:58

anxiety. ah social anxiety it's the thing

40:01

I have and I'm like okay well

40:03

what does that mean and so they

40:05

say well as still really nervous. System.

40:11

Sorry Gov is a vivid slow their those

40:13

verses are the. Good.

40:16

Go ahead are about to speak to subdue but

40:18

I think it's like such an accurate summary of

40:20

slavery of the issues that we have them that

40:22

allow the world. The robot would write and like

40:24

what were those where I mean see year Reich?

40:27

What is the way of what. Have. You heard

40:29

that means so? Ah million they are

40:31

the last hill. Really nervous before I

40:33

give. A presentation at work or diacetyl

40:36

so stress and someone doesn't takes me

40:38

back or if I go to a

40:40

party and I don't know people I

40:43

really like, I have a drink first

40:45

or. Sometimes I go, I'll say

40:47

something in a meeting or on a date and

40:49

then I can't stop thinking about how stupid it

40:51

was and so everything they're saying. Course, I'm like.

40:54

Done that. Done that. Done that, And that. Done

40:56

that. Like me being human. well, And

40:58

it's of being human. and I

41:01

try of course not surprisingly to

41:03

reclaim it with my twenty somethings

41:05

unless they have a clear a

41:08

life long debilitating. Pattern of

41:10

anxiety. In relationships which most do

41:12

not, I try to say what if

41:14

we think about this a social uncertainty

41:16

that you know you're. Not sure if

41:18

this person likes you and you're not sure

41:21

how to talk to people you don't know

41:23

and you're sure. Why some added an

41:25

email like what if we just call

41:27

it that and not get too hung

41:29

up on this thing a disorder. Couple

41:31

of other interesting factoids about social anxiety

41:34

is the fastest growing diagnosis amongst young

41:36

adults. For the reasons I just said

41:38

because it's not social anxiety is that

41:40

it's social uncertainty and that's normal. especially

41:43

when you're in your twenties and. You.

41:45

Don't know your friends are, you're not great

41:47

at speaking up in meetings, and you don't

41:50

feel safe at work, etc. So about sixty

41:52

percent of young adult. Meet

41:54

the criteria for social anxiety

41:56

which tells you that. It's.

41:59

Not a disorder, We won't get

42:01

in the weeds on that for your

42:03

poor listeners. and then most, well, Did

42:06

not meet the disorder, not meet

42:08

the criteria anymore. You know

42:10

as they get older which tells

42:12

me this is a normal struggle

42:14

of development. So. The first thing

42:16

I do a witch's you know what often

42:19

do as I normalize it like edges dead.

42:21

Oh my goodness this a social uncertainty and

42:23

we feel uncertain. And of course your brain

42:25

doesn't like that at proceeds that assange or

42:27

but that doesn't mean it is dangerous or

42:29

that your. You. Don't have the skills,

42:31

you just don't. You know he to see. More

42:34

practice. And so then it's

42:36

trying to figure out what are they need

42:38

more practice with. Not getting a

42:40

reply on a taxed and not

42:42

catastrophizing. That waiting to find out of

42:45

oh yeah the person said they were

42:47

driving and couldn't get back to me

42:49

vs they hate me, they're not gonna

42:52

ask me to things etc or do

42:54

you need more experience giving presentations. Them

42:56

in upset more than one young adult

42:58

to Toastmasters and said won't go practice

43:01

given presentations and then you'll feel less.

43:03

Less. Stressed and anxious about it although it's

43:06

a normal I mean to this day when

43:08

I gave a talk as a little bit

43:10

nervous beforehand because that's the body saying like

43:12

you care. Get ready. Pay attention. As

43:15

a quick note about one aspect of what

43:17

you're saying there. I did research

43:19

for an episode. Looking. Up

43:21

the statistics on anti anxiety medication some

43:24

time ago and at the time that

43:26

I looked it up, it was one

43:28

of the least effective forms of medication

43:30

that we have a percentage and it's

43:32

on on are you most increasingly prescribe

43:34

ones in the United States and that's

43:36

a that's bad intersection right there. Any

43:39

laws are you another bad intersects? and it's

43:41

one of the most addictive and so we

43:43

can. I talk about this in the twenty

43:45

something treatment. Centers. Said.

43:48

Not the prescribed by general

43:50

practitioners. And at that young adults

43:52

do not understand that their short

43:54

acting. Their. Habit forming and

43:57

so they go from outer one

43:59

a day. The I took three

44:01

a day to I took ten a

44:03

day. It's really becoming a big problem.

44:05

They're actually second only to opioids and

44:07

overdoses, and the people most likely to

44:10

wind up in the E R with

44:12

overdoses are young adults and only about

44:14

half of the meant to do that

44:16

there are other are just taking too

44:19

many they don't understand. I don't know,

44:21

their doctors don't understand. They're not supposed

44:23

to be taking them for long periods

44:25

of time and high doses. so. Anti

44:28

anxiety meds. Like. We

44:30

don't have great anti anxiety.

44:33

Options and some people of.

44:35

Course do need does that many,

44:37

many twenty somethings. Need. To understand

44:39

that it's. Normal to feel quite

44:42

anxious much of the time and

44:44

that it passes and that we.

44:46

Can kind of feel more serve ourselves and

44:49

then we were better able to handle it

44:51

when it does happen. A

44:53

major source of anxiety for people

44:55

of all ages, but maybe particularly

44:57

in our twenties as their relationships.

45:00

You. Have a whole section of the book.

45:02

I would argue you have like two or

45:04

three whole sections of the book that are

45:06

dedicated to relationships. a different cards and I

45:08

think one of them title something like How

45:10

To Social, How To Love Others, How To

45:13

Sachs like Oh you know of his major

45:15

issues that people have and that's a poor

45:17

arena for people. Ma'am. I'm

45:19

wondering of the people who like

45:22

walk into your office. Is there

45:24

a common theme? That. Tends to

45:26

come out of people's mouths around issues related

45:28

to relationship like a common fear maybe. Yeah.

45:31

The seer that they're not like. Dearlove.

45:33

They'll never be liked her, loved, and

45:35

of commerce. In other words, that it

45:37

is nice with I have a good

45:39

the Unified principal. Yeah, yeah, yeah right.

45:42

And again that if we haven't really

45:44

talked about this that other, I'm all

45:46

about putting mental health in the context

45:48

of the twenty something brain and life.

45:51

And twenty somethings are more

45:53

likely to interpret things negatively.

45:56

And to steal negatively than older

45:58

adults. ages have more negative. The. Soup

46:01

You know going on with? If

46:03

they see something that's uncertain, they're

46:05

gonna assume the worst. Want something

46:07

bad? Does. Happen or that they perceive

46:09

as that they're gonna feel worse about

46:12

it than older adults. And so of

46:14

course, whether it's social media. Or a

46:16

party they went to, or a meeting at work,

46:18

Or a date They went on there. They're

46:20

going to interpret these. Things as that person

46:22

doesn't like me, I'm never gonna be like

46:25

that person doesn't love me. I'm never going

46:27

to be loved and so a lot of

46:29

what I do with people is just help

46:31

them sift that to really I mean is

46:34

this is this All the data we have

46:36

here you know, is anybody ever liked you

46:38

before there anything you can do to change

46:40

how much people like you are a to

46:43

dude kind of choose your partner little that

46:45

differently so it's it's kind of trying to

46:47

take that. Twenty. Something assumption that

46:49

the way life is now is the way

46:51

it's always going to be because of empirically

46:54

speaking. That's not correct. As we

46:56

develop. Greater. Confidence in. Certain

46:59

looking for different people. Research. Hunting

47:01

for different experiences, we game more

47:03

confidence in ourselves presumed different kinds

47:05

of partners. And get trapped in

47:07

some this old patterns a little bit less like a

47:09

doesn't speak to some of that. And

47:11

I'm wondering how improving.

47:14

Self. Love, self respect, Affects

47:16

the ways that those relationships tend

47:19

to play out for people. Oh,

47:21

I mean, I think it absolutely

47:23

does and you probably have gotten

47:25

front this for me already. I

47:27

I don't really give people empty

47:29

reassurance of earlier. Amazing people are

47:31

gonna love you because their brains

47:33

don't believe that. the finances. In

47:36

this person is she's. Paid to say that

47:38

of course is gonna say that's so i really

47:40

try to help keep mess when he some. Things

47:42

have more strengths and more successes.

47:45

More. Identity capital, More positive

47:47

relationships. More more all the good

47:49

stuff then they're able to recognize

47:51

and really own and so I

47:54

try to let people down and

47:56

ask them. For. More evidence

47:58

or other pieces of ab. Then said.

48:01

Well. I've got eminences Really true. Tell

48:03

me about some of your other friend said.

48:05

Something about relationships with your. Parents tell me

48:07

about how this land or college, or

48:09

this aspect of work, whatever the case

48:12

may be, so that they can spend

48:14

more time in their brain on some

48:16

data. That is kind of disapproving

48:18

what their brain is trying to do, which

48:21

is. Imagine the worst, some for

48:23

the worse. Conclusion: But to say maybe think

48:25

you're not a screwed up as you think you

48:27

are. Maybe you're actually doing okay. Maybe this is

48:29

the way it feels to be a twenty something

48:31

and that you can. You can just get

48:34

better from here. I was actually a podcast. Other

48:36

day with somebody said. Well

48:38

I have a toilet seat on the saying that

48:40

twenties or the hardest years real life and it'll

48:42

get better to supplement. Twenties are actually pretty good

48:45

and I'm terrified Everything is gonna cause side days.

48:48

And. I said well. Why?

48:50

Would that happen? I mean you, You. You

48:52

managed to make a guy in one of

48:54

the hardest decades There is so I I

48:56

feel that you will. You know? Let's talk

48:58

about what did you build and how did

49:00

you do that since you're gonna lose all

49:02

those skills in the next. Five.

49:04

Or ten years I would just assume. You're gonna

49:06

become better. At these things as

49:08

you go. So, but it is since you

49:10

know it's a twenty something brain thing and

49:13

it's like you're talking about there isn't that

49:15

sense. Of Security or Safety of.

49:18

I you know. Okay, not everybody's gonna like

49:20

me, but I can. I know how to

49:22

find the people who. Are right for me.

49:24

The right jobs, the right friends, the right

49:26

partners. And I can keep doing

49:28

that. And if things go sideways, I can.

49:31

Do it again. Is simply walked

49:33

in here office and said some

49:35

versions you have had enough people

49:37

call you major doctor Jay or

49:39

what the with with them would

49:41

go. It varies that every lives

49:44

out about Doctor Mag. I'm feeling

49:46

really stuck right now. And

49:48

I'm feeling really stuck right now

49:50

because. I'm having a hard time in

49:52

my relationship. And I feel

49:54

like I just keep on.

49:57

Going. Around and around

49:59

the miracle. Around with kind of the same

50:01

sort of person, with the same kind of problems.

50:04

And. I don't

50:06

feel like. I. Can. Do.

50:09

A lot about it and I feel like this

50:11

is just the way that I am. Like.

50:13

I I am this kind of person. And.

50:16

I. Don't know what to do and I just

50:18

feel very like stock are trapped in that pattern of

50:20

behavior. Moon. How would

50:22

you start exploring that with somebody? Well

50:25

I mean this is not a transcript of

50:27

what I would do in session but yeah

50:29

general seems when they i mean that a

50:31

true to form I would because this is

50:33

this actually. Takes us to the placebo

50:35

effect or the power of positive expectations.

50:38

We know that one reason that people

50:40

get better in therapy is not because.

50:42

They believe a sugar pill. You know it's

50:44

the chasm. They believe that they can get.

50:47

Better and that life gets better. And

50:49

so I usually. Do some

50:51

normalizing and some shifting of expectations.

50:53

Round you know who? people or in their

50:55

twenties does not actually tend to be who

50:57

they are forever. So let's all go assuming

51:00

that site a try to listen up. The.

51:02

Expectations around. This is who I'm always

51:04

going to be A and you know

51:06

I let them see that I have

51:08

hope. I expect positive growth and change

51:10

our be sure if this person. Did

51:12

not grow and change for the better over

51:14

the next to no one three five years.

51:17

So the tribe. Get. That out there

51:19

of I'm I'm thinking the best here at

51:21

not because I expect them. To be the

51:23

end of the story, but because I think that's

51:25

a good place to start. And then I

51:27

even though it as you can tell I am a

51:29

very action oriented what to night what can we. Do

51:32

percent actually usually start

51:34

with curiosity. Of I really want

51:36

to understand. Why? The

51:38

person. Is doing what they

51:40

feel like they need to do? I do. You

51:42

feel like you need to be with this kind

51:44

of partner? wadi? What? What kind of partner do

51:47

you keep choosing? When did this start? Where did

51:49

that come from? I think they keep. Going way

51:51

you think would happen if he did it

51:53

differently. So I just try to be really

51:55

serious and really understand the problem. Before.

51:58

I go suggesting a solution, then.

52:00

And and often a solution as. What?

52:03

Can you do differently? even if

52:05

it's one small thing? At

52:07

a time. To say anything. What can

52:09

you do differently? If that's what you want to

52:11

be in a different situation, Well, what can you

52:14

do differently to make your situation different? Last

52:17

section of your book is

52:19

how to purpose. I. Thought

52:21

it was really interesting how

52:23

you emphasized that as. You.

52:26

Know I I I coauthored a book with

52:28

my dad. You only get so many chapters.

52:30

We did our is that a twelve chapter

52:32

structure. you'd just get dry. Your gotta pick

52:34

right the again I can't pick twenty topics.

52:37

you just gotta pick twelve. I now that

52:39

you bring up a great. Point: You gotta

52:41

choose a real estate and and he can't. Put

52:43

everything in there as though everything.

52:45

I've chosen of a i feel. Strongly. About Galley

52:48

Telia And so you're allocating one of

52:50

those one of your your twelve precious

52:52

children of your chapters. And whatever an

52:54

answer to how to choose purpose. Which

52:57

is. On the scale

52:59

of like, if we do some massless hierarchy

53:01

going on, here are some sense it out

53:04

that little actualization on the internet. Ah, Attaboy

53:06

Mafia. On the other hand, I think that

53:08

for a lot of people who are. Twenty.

53:11

Four years old. The. Notion of like

53:13

life's purpose feels like a pretty big

53:15

and airy and disuse thing when I'm

53:17

worried about the problem on the ground

53:19

right now. which is that I'm i'm

53:21

getting seas or it's that I don't

53:23

have a functional relationship. Airports that you

53:26

know, the as a job market is

53:28

a nightmare and I've sent him a

53:30

hundred resumes and of guns era responses

53:32

even though I should be on paper.

53:34

Very accredited person. Right? And so

53:36

I. I just said that. It was so

53:38

interesting, including just to my own life where

53:40

I feel like one of the big. Struggles.

53:43

That I had for really long time was

53:45

related to sell meant more than it was

53:47

related to any kind of specific on the

53:50

ground problem. And that really connects to that

53:52

overall sense of meaning and purpose that a

53:54

person can cultivate to their lives. So I

53:56

just wanted to tug on that thread and

53:58

I'm wondering why you wanted to highlight that

54:00

as an issue and they're just the thought

54:02

you have about it. Yeah, thank

54:05

you for raising that. So it's the last

54:07

chapter in the how Have Liked To As

54:09

year. To how to leave your homework. My

54:11

house is. I love it that you

54:13

did your homework so well. So they're

54:16

twelve and it's the last one. From

54:18

a Muslim hierarchy perspective of. I.

54:21

Was kind trying to say this

54:23

is important. It's probably gonna

54:25

be the last thing that you get to

54:27

end of a lot I'm doing and that

54:29

chapter is normalizing. Not having found

54:32

it yet them a lot of twenty somethings

54:34

like I don't our purposes I don't have

54:36

been eying well the data so that most

54:38

people around the world fun purpose and meaning

54:41

through work in laws. And. As we

54:43

have discussed, work and lover can be

54:45

a bit of a mass in your

54:47

twenties and often don't seal solidified and

54:50

till. He was thirty. Or

54:52

beyond the so if you don't have

54:54

purpose yet. Don't. Panic. This is

54:57

one of the last things to come

54:59

your way and. That's. Okay,

55:02

And at the same time there's

55:04

always if you want more purpose

55:06

and your lives, it's all around

55:08

you. He. Just choose

55:10

to intersect with it so you

55:12

know actually. Had a class

55:14

on nurse and the students had to sort of

55:16

go out and do something that they felt like

55:19

would create more purpose and meaning in their lives.

55:21

And so it. Was one.

55:23

Started. I think like the

55:25

Latino neighborhood organization and another

55:28

was having conversations. About Israel

55:30

and Palestine in this as

55:32

you know before last year

55:34

and another was really focusing

55:36

on having better relationships. Because she

55:38

had grown up in a family where there weren't

55:40

great relationships. And that was very purposeful and meaning

55:42

for her to focus on. that the just to

55:44

try to help. Young adults see.

55:47

In. A purpose, The something that. You work toward.

55:49

Don't panic if you don't have it yet,

55:51

but you can always be. Intersecting was something

55:54

meaningful if you choose to do so. And

55:56

that that's that's a choice that we

55:58

make. Some time through our curry. there's

56:01

some time through our relationship. Sometimes your

56:03

hobbies, sometimes you're volunteering, Sometimes through. Any

56:06

conversations that we have but I

56:08

just wanted to. Say. I

56:10

hear you that you're worried you don't have

56:12

this. That don't panic, it's usually

56:14

the last piece that you can go

56:16

ahead and start. Feeling. More of

56:18

a sense. Of that because it it's hard for

56:21

twenty something that what. Most. Of

56:23

the World's Funds, Purpose through work

56:25

and love. Where are milestones are

56:27

now? They don't They don't have it. And

56:29

so I mean if you, if I'm not saying

56:31

kids are the ultimate purpose and meaning, but if

56:34

you have kids, you deathly have. A lot

56:36

of perspective. A real quick said no

56:38

matter what happens at work, not the

56:40

into the world. My. Kids are still.

56:42

Okay, they're breathing all. figure this out

56:44

and in a twenty five year olds

56:46

don't have that sense of purpose or

56:49

perspective of you know hey I gotta

56:51

get up everyday make this happen or

56:53

people counting on the though it's says

56:55

and feel pretty on moored. There's there's

56:57

also the peace and their about religion

56:59

that you know by and large fewer

57:01

young adults. the never identify with a

57:04

particular religion which used. To be a son

57:06

of a ready made source of purse purpose and meaning.

57:08

And they know how that now. As a

57:10

relatively non religious person, them the hammer,

57:12

and as somebody who doesn't doesn't have

57:15

an inclination toward that and has never

57:17

really had an inclination towards that. Serve.

57:20

And many times where if reflector them and

57:22

kind of had some moments like man who

57:24

would be nice to have as a source

57:26

of the lot give your to like our

57:28

somebody just tell me where I like how

57:30

I had a birthday I'd be as you

57:33

know don't have to have the whole thing

57:35

I there's this and around her accent that

57:37

my my dad's family's from North Dakota original

57:39

a bunch of ranchers. And we

57:41

went out there to visit extended family and

57:43

I was talk with my great aunt about

57:45

something them she was an older lady and

57:47

she basically I sort of asked. Some.

57:49

Version of a reflecting on

57:51

Life question or second about.

57:54

How. You feel an untruth. much older person, ninety

57:56

two years old? Something with that. At the

57:58

time she was like. You know if it's

58:01

gonna be fine because I am the die and

58:03

I'm just gonna go be with gotten it's all

58:05

gonna work out I was like wow man if

58:07

I can have that he led by a nice

58:09

idea of mine right there. So no I just

58:11

do think it is an interesting piece of the

58:13

puzzle here for her. It is

58:15

and actually the that came up a

58:17

lot. In the class I taught a

58:19

class on us and you know, I think

58:21

a lot of young adults a lot are

58:24

saying gosh, The kind of wish I had

58:26

that. As with the so much easier

58:28

and I don't know that literate wouldn't but

58:30

that's the fantasy. That yeah a job as

58:32

there for me somewhere he i think

58:34

the fantasy of that sounds nice and

58:36

near you drilled outer layer to and

58:38

things get all of a more complicated

58:41

pretty well. like ours right? And

58:43

modern make if somebody comes into your office

58:45

and the site. I feel like

58:47

I have a purpose problem with them.

58:49

the ability to access that lightweight or

58:51

users can identify and them wells and

58:53

lot of stuff is happening here. But

58:56

it doesn't feel like there's any unifying movements

58:58

in a direction that says really meaningful for

59:01

this person? Is there any kind of a

59:03

process that you would go through with somebody

59:05

to start to try to figure that out.

59:08

That's a good question. There. Are

59:10

people who say hey, I'm I'm good with

59:12

a bunch of stuff going on and I

59:14

don't need a sense of meaning and purpose.

59:17

But I think if the person brought that

59:19

enters the presenting problem of about all the

59:22

stuff. I checked all the boxes but there's

59:24

no meaning and purpose. I would like I

59:26

said before, I would. Get. Real

59:28

curious. About that. You know what's going

59:30

on that. Okay, let's say

59:32

the person has work and love

59:35

which usually are some starter sources

59:37

of purpose. I would one understand what's

59:39

going on that they're not feeling the purpose

59:41

that year he can. I don't think you

59:43

have. To go sort of start a non

59:45

profit or get off on. A pulpit to

59:47

have meaning and purpose. I would really want

59:49

to understand what's what's happening that you're not

59:52

feeling it And work. Or live. or work.

59:54

Outside. Of work. You know it's there

59:56

something that needs to change about your job

59:58

or how you spend your. I'm outside

1:00:00

of your job or ways to deepen

1:00:02

your relationship. I would probably start their

1:00:05

of was that feeling so meaningless. Are.

1:00:07

A lot of people I wonder if there's a

1:00:09

comparison issue here fundamentally? Like. We're we're

1:00:12

maybe told the story that in order to

1:00:14

have a for selling life you do need

1:00:16

to. Be. A tadpole pad or

1:00:18

be starting that non profit or

1:00:20

whatever it might be that person.

1:00:23

And so you wake up at

1:00:25

twenty eight or thirty six female

1:00:27

for me and start looking around

1:00:29

and on how you now I

1:00:31

haven't done that sang. Does.

1:00:33

That mean that I'm. Not living

1:00:35

the life that I was supposed to

1:00:37

last. And. So I do

1:00:39

think that spacing for be bonsai wonder about

1:00:41

that The stories that we tell about this.

1:00:44

And normalize of those a little

1:00:46

better. Normalize on that experience. I

1:00:49

mean I think a good one is that. A

1:00:51

good thing to normalize is that

1:00:53

not everybody's job is going to

1:00:55

seal. Meaningful or purposeful.

1:00:57

Nor. Nor does it have to am

1:01:00

in a you know that sometimes people

1:01:02

can. Connect You know that the coding

1:01:04

that they're doing with this cool project

1:01:06

that has a big impact. Other times

1:01:08

people feel like whatever I code I

1:01:10

come home, I get paid been and

1:01:12

they look. For meaning elsewhere. And that's

1:01:15

fine. There's no one you know, not.

1:01:17

Everybody is john. Nice to see. It like

1:01:19

you know it's It's changing the world for

1:01:21

us to feel. Satisfied.

1:01:23

Or to feel like there's meaning and purpose. Some

1:01:25

people you know just wanna do their job and

1:01:27

meaning and purpose is what they do for their

1:01:29

family or what they do for their kids are

1:01:31

what they do for their community and mean it's.

1:01:34

I think it's really about. Like you

1:01:36

said, not getting too hung up

1:01:39

on narratives. About what should be happening,

1:01:41

about what we think other people are doing,

1:01:43

But to figure out. Well what does that mean

1:01:45

for you to have meaning and purpose? And. Let's.

1:01:48

Figure out how we can help you get it? I'm.

1:01:50

I'm not saying the perspective

1:01:53

of somebody who. Is

1:01:55

in their early thirties let's say

1:01:57

if not there early forties. And.

1:01:59

There. Going to a conversation like that

1:02:01

which really focuses on some version of

1:02:03

this is a moment in life that

1:02:05

is very important. It really sets you

1:02:07

up for the rest of your life.

1:02:09

You're all these fancy can do during

1:02:11

active to maximize that. The value that

1:02:14

you get out of this. And. They're

1:02:16

looking back on man. I did Not do that. ah

1:02:18

I'm a suburb. it's feel a gum of

1:02:20

of I had a last moment in time,

1:02:22

a lost opportunity. I just didn't really have

1:02:25

squeeze the juice out of ad in the

1:02:27

way that I could have. maybe. I

1:02:29

can you imagine that that something that you bumped into.

1:02:32

On a lot more than sensitive wanted

1:02:34

you're on a bath and and I'm

1:02:36

wondering I retire that. Yeah, I'll

1:02:38

bumped into it all over email many

1:02:40

times. You get mail. And say oh,

1:02:42

now I read your book and I'm

1:02:45

thirty five. I feel like a ladder my

1:02:47

my, you know where? Yeah. So

1:02:49

a few things. When. People email me

1:02:51

and say asshole at had this book when

1:02:53

I was in my twenties. Now I'm thirty

1:02:55

thoughts and in both of them are really

1:02:57

the science and the art of adult development.

1:03:00

And there's nothing in the book. Is

1:03:02

no. Longer applies at thirty or

1:03:04

forty or fifty. I'm just a twenty

1:03:06

something expert so I'm sort of the person

1:03:09

his I'm getting it out there at the

1:03:11

first possible moment of his own development but

1:03:13

you know have had one part. One thing

1:03:15

I loved with someone told me that they

1:03:17

said they went to their and I gotta

1:03:20

do the math on this. it would have

1:03:22

been there twentieth college reunion. And

1:03:24

they ran into their a friend that they

1:03:26

hadn't seen and many many years and the

1:03:29

person said on i guess that is read

1:03:31

this book at rocked my world It changed

1:03:33

my life person's forty one and my friend

1:03:35

said well as it said the defining decade

1:03:38

and I just love said that the person

1:03:40

read a book and didn't say like oh

1:03:42

sued over thirty none of this applies like

1:03:44

he got it that it's still about. Identity

1:03:47

Capital still about week ties. If we go

1:03:50

over the twenty something treatment, it's still about

1:03:52

purpose. And meeting at still about you

1:03:54

know when we're feeling depressed or anxious

1:03:56

or stressed says her feelings are often

1:03:58

say. What? On. What's.

1:04:01

Going on. What needs to change? What

1:04:03

skills do you need to be working

1:04:05

on? Not your a disordered, abnormal person

1:04:07

and you can never be. Well. So.

1:04:10

Anyway, I tell people. To.

1:04:12

Block out the what twenty something world keep

1:04:14

reading at all still applies to you. Yeah,

1:04:17

so that's what I tell people and

1:04:19

I do get those emails from time to

1:04:21

time. But I think if I

1:04:23

wrote a book that was you know, for

1:04:25

everybody between twenty and one hundred. No.

1:04:27

One would ever read it because yeah in

1:04:30

our doesn't have a target or sort of

1:04:32

of you know that's my context as twenties.

1:04:34

Totally totally. And one of the things I

1:04:36

think is maybe just really important to say

1:04:38

here at the end that I certainly parents

1:04:41

your life is not over your life as

1:04:43

I messed up. If you have thirty

1:04:45

and you feel if you don't have the stuff that.

1:04:47

People. Can change at any moment in

1:04:49

time. At the moment that you have

1:04:51

available to you is right now in

1:04:54

the past of the past say whatever

1:04:56

of for you here right? But I

1:04:58

had says it's deeply true and like

1:05:00

yes the earliest moment is always the

1:05:02

most high leverage moment right? When.

1:05:04

When you're twenty, The Highest leverage Mormonism Under

1:05:06

twenty When you're forty five. The High Leverage

1:05:09

Moments When you're forty five. That's the way

1:05:11

it works. Absolutely. Now is. Always the

1:05:13

time in one hundred percent And you

1:05:15

know I will say that there's this

1:05:17

factoid that I often bring up which

1:05:19

is eighty Percent flies Most defining moment

1:05:21

take place by age thirty five. Which

1:05:23

makes sense when you think about all those

1:05:26

adult miles and most of them get banged

1:05:28

out by around thirty five. Although you know

1:05:30

in the twenty first century we're not going

1:05:33

on the door thirty Five as to sit.

1:05:35

So actually, on a recent social media posts,

1:05:37

I posted a picture myself at thirty Five

1:05:39

getting my Phd diploma and Alice see mom

1:05:42

gets lay Nine months pregnant and I was

1:05:44

saying look at me, I'm squeezing and two

1:05:46

big. Ones right under the wire. And

1:05:48

advances that. All done at thirty. Not

1:05:51

even close. But what I kind of

1:05:53

talked about in that social media posts

1:05:55

as those projects where I'm having my

1:05:57

mom and I'm pregnant? I've got my

1:05:59

diploma. Nothing good start. In

1:06:01

my twenties I decided to start

1:06:04

studying for the Gree. I decided

1:06:06

to start looking for grad schools. I

1:06:08

decided to. Go. This direction with

1:06:10

my career I decided to stop living with

1:06:12

this percent and start. Looking. For

1:06:14

a partner that would be better for me that the

1:06:17

all those things started. But if you ask

1:06:19

me, at thirty, none of them were

1:06:21

done so I wouldn't have you know

1:06:23

I wasn't done that I had started.

1:06:25

That because you can't see the the result

1:06:28

you feel like it thirty or empty handed.

1:06:30

You're not empty handed, it's just still

1:06:32

in. Progress. To.

1:06:34

Use my dad as an example here. He wrote

1:06:37

his first, but I'll call successful book in two

1:06:39

thousand and nine. That's when he was in his

1:06:41

mid fifties. Who was, but his brain. I had

1:06:43

known I was out. I was almost graduated from

1:06:45

college and. He. Was fifty six years old

1:06:47

or something like that when that book came out

1:06:50

of the my book took several years to to

1:06:52

really kind of go anywhere in terms of a

1:06:54

talent for saying how I had i love. That

1:06:57

yeah lot. So they are. That's what

1:06:59

happens you now. maybe Tier Plant. He got

1:07:01

his license when he was I think like

1:07:03

thirty five, thirty six, thirty seven somewhere in

1:07:05

there, right in who and as So there

1:07:08

was some build happening, but sometimes these things

1:07:10

take time. Different less flies courses for different

1:07:12

people. That's the way cause. Frankly,

1:07:14

Everything takes time, right? So is that is

1:07:16

the way it is. Ira. I mean, I

1:07:18

read the defining decade at Forty, but I

1:07:21

rode it about what I'd been doing for

1:07:23

the past ten years, so I had to

1:07:25

get out there and this stuff to have

1:07:27

things to write about. The make

1:07:29

thanks so much for doing this with me to

1:07:31

the has a great conversation at all. Enjoy that

1:07:33

me as well. Really?

1:07:40

Enjoyed my conversation today with Doctor Meg

1:07:43

Che, the author of the Twenty Something

1:07:45

Treatment and The Defining Decade and we

1:07:47

begin the conversation with me asking Mag

1:07:50

what she thought the biggest misconception was

1:07:52

the most people tended to have about

1:07:54

or twenties. And stocked about

1:07:56

a couple. Thanks! The first thing which he

1:07:58

mentioned was how many. People approach our

1:08:01

twenties like they're kind of this own

1:08:03

is decades that people get. You can

1:08:05

just kind of figure things out. It's

1:08:07

all because be okay, Kick the can

1:08:10

down the road. The. Second big

1:08:12

misconception that people have is that

1:08:14

your twenties is this time of

1:08:16

ultimate freedom and enjoyment of. this

1:08:18

is the best decade of your

1:08:21

life. When. The truth is that for

1:08:23

most people. Your twenties, as if

1:08:25

anything, public and and being the

1:08:27

worst decade of your life, it's

1:08:30

when you have the most uncertainty,

1:08:32

the fewest resources, and when things

1:08:34

often feel kind of chaotic and

1:08:36

unpredictable. And that chaos and

1:08:38

unpredictability leads to a lot of painful

1:08:40

emotions, painful thoughts and feelings that you

1:08:42

may or may not have the tools

1:08:44

yet to know how to deal with

1:08:46

effectively. Than. There are a few

1:08:48

things that make it even more complicated. First,

1:08:51

older adults tend to minimize the struggles

1:08:53

and challenges of people in their twenties.

1:08:56

And then second that we have a

1:08:58

lot of narratives about the way that

1:09:00

are twenties are supposed to look are

1:09:03

supposed to work. That can lead to

1:09:05

people feeling small and insecure by comparison

1:09:07

to that story. You. See the

1:09:10

image that gets projected onto social media things

1:09:12

being a certain kind of way and you

1:09:14

assume that you're supposed to have it all

1:09:16

figured out. And. Then there's this tension

1:09:18

between well have fun during your twenties and

1:09:21

also if you don't have it figured out

1:09:23

when your thirties, Wow, your life is over

1:09:25

now. Now. We know that that's

1:09:27

just not true. Change happens for people

1:09:29

wherever they are. Right now today is

1:09:31

the are the best moment of intervention

1:09:33

that you have available to you. And.

1:09:36

Most people are not going to have everything figured out

1:09:38

by the time of the hit. Twenty Nine. Within.

1:09:40

Talked for a little while about

1:09:42

uncertainty and self concept. uncertainty is

1:09:44

a stressor for everybody, but it's

1:09:46

really a stressor for people who

1:09:48

do not have a concept of

1:09:51

themselves as somebody from which they

1:09:53

can derive sixty. Somebody.

1:09:55

Who can meet challenges as they come

1:09:57

up, can overcome different kinds of difficulties

1:09:59

and center you know make things work

1:10:01

regardless of what's going on around them.

1:10:04

That self concept is based on experiences of

1:10:06

doing that by and large For people, it's

1:10:08

hard to believe that about yourself if you

1:10:11

don't have a lot of experience of things

1:10:13

going pretty well for you, and people who

1:10:15

are in their twenties generally haven't occurred that

1:10:17

many experiences of that so far. So.

1:10:20

That's one of the reasons that

1:10:22

uncertainty can. Seal. So stressful

1:10:24

for younger people. And

1:10:27

that stress that discomfort which is

1:10:29

often married with a lot of

1:10:31

difficult experiences that we have grown

1:10:33

up. Experiences of things not going

1:10:35

well in our relationship of school

1:10:37

been challenging of the transition into

1:10:39

the I quote unquote real world

1:10:41

been very difficult for people, often.

1:10:44

When. We pair the struggles with

1:10:46

the incredible rise and mental health

1:10:48

information that's out there. Through.

1:10:50

Podcast like this one through social

1:10:53

media particularly tic toc. Second lead

1:10:55

to people. Going. Down

1:10:57

a rabbit hole of self diagnosis that

1:10:59

can be a really mixed bag. There

1:11:02

has been an enormous increase and

1:11:04

that diagnosed disorders, particularly in young

1:11:07

people over the last ten years.

1:11:10

Some of this is probably just

1:11:12

a accurate correction on what was

1:11:14

previously a lot of under diagnosis

1:11:16

of various ailments for example A

1:11:18

D H D and Autism Spectrum

1:11:20

disorders particularly and women. But.

1:11:23

It's also tied to the pathologists a

1:11:25

son of totally normal human experience, as

1:11:27

as we talked about during the conversation,

1:11:29

it is normal to feel anxiety, and

1:11:31

it's particularly normal to feel a lot

1:11:34

of anxiety in your twenties. So just

1:11:36

because you experience a lot of anxiety

1:11:38

does not mean that you have a

1:11:40

diagnosable anxiety disorder or that you should

1:11:43

be put on medication for it. And

1:11:46

as always, there's a real balance. Their i'm partnered

1:11:48

with a person who has received an enormous benefit.

1:11:50

From. Taking certain kinds of medication, Who.

1:11:53

Has had just a transformative

1:11:56

experience based on receiving a

1:11:58

diagnosis that. The dated

1:12:00

her experience of the world and are really

1:12:02

meaningful way and allowed her to connect with

1:12:04

other people who had a similar experience and

1:12:06

to feel scene and that like that's immensely

1:12:09

helpful for people. But. It also makes

1:12:11

a lot of sense for us to be

1:12:13

very careful about mental health terminology. And

1:12:15

when we start to frame and

1:12:18

experience our haven't particularly an emotional

1:12:20

experience as an aspect of identity

1:12:22

or something we are rather than

1:12:24

something that's happening to us that's

1:12:26

gonna naturally change over time. Things

1:12:28

get very entrenched very quickly and

1:12:31

the can be really difficult for

1:12:33

people to gig themselves out of

1:12:35

some patterns that they've created based

1:12:37

on the perception of themselves as

1:12:39

having a unchangeable problem. As. Opposed

1:12:42

to to said naturally changeable experience that's

1:12:44

gonna go up and down over the

1:12:46

course of life. Within. Talked

1:12:48

for a little while about the strength

1:12:50

of week ties and then alongside that

1:12:52

the importance of developing identity capital. Identity

1:12:55

Capital is all of the stuff that

1:12:57

goes into our identity that builds up

1:12:59

our sense of who we are. If

1:13:01

you get a job that's an aspect

1:13:03

of identity capital, if you have a

1:13:05

certain kind of relationship with friends out

1:13:07

in the world that fills you up

1:13:09

kind of identity Capital. This is all

1:13:11

the stuff that goes into our self

1:13:13

concept. If you're looking

1:13:15

for something truly new and life,

1:13:18

If you're looking to create a

1:13:20

different outcome, That's. Tied to

1:13:22

a new process for you. It's.

1:13:24

More likely to come from a week tie

1:13:26

them a strong tie. Six.

1:13:28

Year relationship like a series of concentric

1:13:31

circles go unanswered. Mail. A tad.

1:13:33

the closest little circle on the inside is

1:13:35

your best friends or family members. People like

1:13:37

that One circle out your more distant friends,

1:13:39

A circle out from that, a person that

1:13:41

you bumped into and class once and so

1:13:43

on. and so on. We. Tend

1:13:45

to spend the most time with their core

1:13:47

group of people. By research shows that that

1:13:49

core group of people tends to be pretty

1:13:51

homogenous. They either look like us, sir, talk

1:13:53

like last sore, Think like us. And

1:13:56

if you're looking for something truly

1:13:58

new, Is. Probably going to come. From

1:14:00

outside that inner circle, it's probably gonna come

1:14:02

from the friend of the friend that you

1:14:04

haven't even bumped into contact with. Yeah, And.

1:14:07

It's easy for us to get stuck in

1:14:09

a rut based on repeated association with a

1:14:11

small and pretty insular group of people. Now.

1:14:13

Accessing those week ties can be really difficult

1:14:15

for people because we tend to bump are

1:14:17

had into a lot of avoidance behaviors. It's

1:14:20

scary to interact with people you don't know

1:14:22

as well. And this gets even

1:14:24

more complicated when we start self diagnose

1:14:26

and with things like social anxiety. And

1:14:29

I asked Dr. Mag how she helps

1:14:31

people flip the slats where. They.

1:14:33

Can finally have that moment where they

1:14:35

start moving into the accents. That

1:14:38

leads different results for them. And.

1:14:40

He had a really interesting answer to at which

1:14:42

was in some was kind of almost implicit in

1:14:44

what to a sense wear seatbelts up? The strength

1:14:46

of the relationship with the people that she was

1:14:48

working with. See. Really set them

1:14:50

as he gave them an alternative way of

1:14:53

thinking about it, a different way of looking

1:14:55

at it and really more than anything Clinic

1:14:57

just validated their experience relation like. And

1:14:59

based on and none of that, Enough.

1:15:01

Reassurance Enough positive relating some real Carl

1:15:04

Rogers staff if you're into that humanistic

1:15:06

psychology. They were able to finally had

1:15:08

that moment where they could turn the

1:15:10

doorknob and step into the room and

1:15:12

a different kind of way. And

1:15:15

I've always been really fascinated by that flip

1:15:17

the switch moment. What really does get people

1:15:19

to a place where they can take the

1:15:21

first accent that all of the other actions

1:15:23

than cascade from. And man

1:15:25

was, as I questioned almost everybody's come

1:15:27

on the podcast a man, it's It's

1:15:29

really hard when answer. it seems like

1:15:32

it's the sort of ineffable thing. In.

1:15:35

The last part of the episode we

1:15:37

talked about building strong relationships and meaning

1:15:39

and purpose. These topics are really linked

1:15:41

a lot of the time are feeling

1:15:43

of meaning and purpose comes from feeling

1:15:45

like we have stronger relationships. And

1:15:47

I really appreciated how Doctor Mag spoke at

1:15:49

the end to that feeling that many people

1:15:52

have of not having use their time. Well,

1:15:54

I kind of judgment that can emerge and

1:15:56

sight of us that we didn't. Get.

1:15:59

Everything that we. I'd I'd have a particular

1:16:01

moment of time. Most. People do

1:16:03

not figure out their purpose in life. By.

1:16:06

The Time: The thirty years old. I'm

1:16:08

thirty six and I don't feel like I say get

1:16:10

mine out. A. Lot of people listening

1:16:12

to this are probably forty five or fifty five

1:16:14

or sixty five and they're gone. man. I

1:16:16

don't know if I figured might out. And

1:16:19

that's really okay. We.

1:16:21

Are all works in progress? here? We

1:16:23

are all in a constant state of

1:16:25

figuring it out. That is the human

1:16:27

experience. And when we get said

1:16:29

this model. Of the way that

1:16:31

things are supposed to lot. From. The

1:16:34

tiny, tiny tiny subset of the population

1:16:36

where things actually look that way for

1:16:38

them. It can so distort our

1:16:40

perception of the way life really is for

1:16:42

most people. The. Way Life

1:16:45

really is includes a lot of

1:16:47

uncertainty and anxiety. And. Fear

1:16:49

and avoidance and concerned about the way

1:16:51

that things are going to turn out

1:16:53

tomorrow. And that's really okay. And

1:16:56

it's one of the reasons that I talk about

1:16:58

acceptance and agency so often on the Podcast Rights

1:17:00

Week Sept. All of these things that we truly

1:17:03

do not have a lot of control over. And

1:17:05

this funny thing happens to paraphrase Current

1:17:08

Rogers the curious paradoxes when I accept

1:17:10

myself just as I am that I

1:17:12

can change. And by refocusing

1:17:14

over and over again on the things that

1:17:16

we actually have control over, we end up

1:17:18

getting so much more out of our lives.

1:17:21

So I hope you enjoy today's episode of

1:17:23

Doctor Mag. J Against is the author of

1:17:26

the new book that twenty something treatment. For

1:17:28

me as possibly a future parents, I'm in Er

1:17:30

for back to at. I think that if you

1:17:32

know somebody who's in their twenties, if you're in

1:17:34

your twenties right now, if you want to get

1:17:36

some good perspective on a don't development in general,

1:17:38

it's a really great book and I would really

1:17:41

recommend it. If you've made

1:17:43

it this far and you are not subscribe

1:17:45

to the podcast. Wow! Use really subscribe to it.

1:17:47

I would appreciate it and it would really

1:17:49

help us out. Also. If you're

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listening to add we have a You Tube

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a walk driving around whatever it as you

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find us on Patriotic Pitcher on.com/being Well podcasts

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1:18:25

Until next time thanks for listening and I'll

1:18:27

talk peace and.