0:00

You're listening to an Airwave

0:02

Media Podcast. Ben Franklin's

0:04

world is a production of

0:06

Colonial Williamsburg Innovation Studios. If

0:09

you think about your history class, sometimes

0:11

for a lot of people, it was

0:13

a class that they probably dreaded. But

0:16

think about this as that

0:18

history class. I want to

0:20

give people that opportunity to see history

0:23

in that capsulated way through

0:25

my eyes, to know

0:27

it should be something that should be

0:30

remembered and learned from.

0:40

Hello, and welcome

0:42

to episode 386 of Ben Franklin's world. The

0:47

podcast dedicated to helping you learn

0:49

more about how the people and events of

0:51

our early American past have shaped the present-day

0:53

world we live in. I'm

0:55

your host, Liz Kovart. Today,

0:58

we have a special treat. In honor

1:00

of Juneteenth, my Innovation Studios colleague Ashley

1:02

Bocknight is going to lead us on

1:04

an exploration of the Slave Dwelling Project.

1:07

The Slave Dwelling Project seeks to raise

1:09

awareness about the existence of and the

1:12

need to preserve Slave Dwellings and other

1:14

structures that are significant to both the

1:16

enslaved ancestors and to our complete

1:18

understanding of early American and United States history.

1:21

Now, Ashley is a historian who specializes in

1:23

public history. She works in

1:26

the Colonial Williamsburg Innovation Studios as a

1:28

digital content producer. Throughout her

1:30

career, she has worked as a community leader

1:32

and consultant for various museums, historic sites,

1:35

and neighborhood history projects in the

1:37

United States Southeast. Among

1:39

her research specialties is community

1:41

outreach and the inclusivity of

1:43

museums. Now, I think

1:45

we're really going to enjoy this conversation.

1:47

In previous episodes, we've explored different aspects

1:50

of slavery and enslaved life within the

1:52

United States. But in this episode,

1:54

Ashley will help us explore why the

1:56

preservation and memory of the buildings where

1:58

enslaved people once lived. lived is

2:01

equally as important as preserving other historic

2:03

sites and spaces to add to our

2:05

knowledge of United States history. And

2:07

with that, here's Ashley Bocknight and

2:09

our latest historical exploration. In

2:12

this special Juneteenth episode, as

2:14

we honor the emancipation of

2:16

enslaved African Americans, we

2:18

will delve into the work of those working

2:21

to preserve slave dwellings across the

2:23

United States, safeguarding the

2:25

essential stories, beast structures, and

2:27

body. In our

2:30

conversation, our guests will share why

2:32

former slave dwellings are vital

2:34

to our nation's history and

2:36

what they reveal about the lives of those

2:38

who once lived them. As

2:41

we explore these important pieces of

2:43

the past, consider why

2:46

is it important to preserve these

2:48

humble yet powerful symbols of history?

2:51

What stories do they hold that we

2:53

risk losing if they're forgotten? And

2:55

how can we understand this part of

2:57

our heritage? And how can

3:00

understanding this part of our heritage

3:02

shape a more inclusive and truthful

3:04

reflection of our nation's past? Joseph

3:07

McGill, author, executive director, and

3:09

founder of the Slave Welling

3:12

Project, joins us to discuss

3:14

the importance of historic preservation

3:16

and why preserving former slave dwellings

3:19

are vital to our nation's history.

3:22

Using details from his book, Sleeping

3:24

with the Ancestors, How I Followed

3:26

the Footprints of Slavery, Joe

3:28

reveals how to use documents

3:31

and artifacts to preserve historic structures,

3:34

the importance of living history programs

3:36

at historic sites, and

3:38

how public memory impacts the

3:40

preservation of colonial era structures.

3:43

Okay, are you ready to explore

3:46

the world of historic preservation and

3:48

see how preservation has worked to

3:50

save significant historic structures? Let's

3:53

go meet our guest historian. Joining

4:09

us today is public historian,

4:11

scholar, executive director, and founder

4:13

of the Slave Welling Project.

4:15

He has previously served as a park

4:18

ranger for the National Park Service, as

4:20

well as a field officer for the

4:22

National Trust for Historic Preservation. He

4:24

is the author of Sleeping with

4:27

the Ancestors, How I Followed the

4:29

Footprints of Slavery. Welcome

4:31

to Ben Franklin's World, Joseph McGill. Thank

4:34

you for the invitation. Glad to be here.

4:37

Jo, we know slavery is an

4:39

integral part of the American history

4:41

story, yet living conditions and experiences

4:43

of the enslaved people are often

4:45

overlooked. Against this

4:48

backdrop, the Slave Welling Project seems to

4:50

shed light on the neglected aspect of

4:52

our nation's past. Could you

4:54

share what a Slave Welling actually is

4:57

and what inspired you to

4:59

the project? The dwelling

5:01

is those places where our

5:03

enslaved ancestors inhabited while they

5:05

were having their services done

5:07

at this place of enslavement.

5:09

So those dwellings are those

5:11

places where they actually physically

5:14

stayed, which in a lot

5:16

of cases are there, have

5:18

been there since they were

5:20

built there. In

5:22

some places where these

5:24

places are no more, we still

5:26

want to know these entities to

5:29

know that once upon

5:31

a time in their narrative,

5:33

in their history, they should

5:35

be telling that or disseminating

5:37

that information amongst all

5:39

the other information that they disseminate

5:42

about that place. So

5:44

the opportunity to do that lies

5:46

in these dwellings. So

5:48

the Slave Welling Project is that

5:50

effort to bring attention to these

5:53

spaces that have already been there

5:55

or should be represented at these

5:57

places. We shed light and

5:59

we praise the world. ones that do and we

6:01

name the ones that don't. So we just

6:03

leave it there. Based

6:05

on your research, why is there

6:07

such a wide variety of slave

6:09

wellies? Depends on

6:12

when the land was

6:14

developed, when it was colonized,

6:16

and by which European

6:19

country was in that physical

6:21

space, applying their ways of

6:24

doing things. If you're

6:26

on the coast, which many

6:28

states that prosper during that

6:30

period, they started on the

6:32

coast of that particular state where

6:34

the docks were, where the labor

6:37

was being brought in, and

6:39

they were building these

6:41

buildings in accordance with what was

6:43

there at that place. You

6:46

know, you get these variations of

6:48

these buildings existing in places, and

6:51

a lot of times, sometimes they're

6:53

in northern states, which tends to

6:55

garner pushback when you interpret that

6:58

aspect of slave dwellings

7:00

because there's a misconception that it

7:02

was a southern thing and it

7:04

was, but it was not a

7:07

northern thing, and it was. So

7:10

we convince the public

7:12

that that's an element of the story also.

7:15

To date, you conducted over 250 overnights

7:17

at approximately 150 sites in 25 states

7:24

and Washington, D.C. That

7:26

is outstanding. Now in

7:29

your book, Sleeping with the Ancestors, you

7:31

state that the original name of the

7:33

project was the Slave Cabin Project. Why

7:36

was it important for you to change

7:38

the name of the project to the

7:41

Slave Welling Project after already establishing quite

7:43

a bit of notoriety under the name

7:45

the Slave Cabin Project? It's

7:48

about the space. It's about that

7:50

very space. In

7:52

my mind, when I

7:54

graduated, a slave cabin

7:57

to me was that a cabin.

8:00

also on a southern plantation.

8:03

So my understanding of slavery was

8:05

limited to what I was taught

8:07

that right there. Then

8:10

I started the project just based on

8:13

that thought. But then I went

8:15

to Alabama and the place I

8:17

was going to stay was

8:19

two levels and it

8:21

was brick. That

8:23

was not a cabin by my definition

8:26

of what cabins were. To me,

8:28

that was a dwelling. So that was very

8:30

early on in the process and I'm glad

8:32

it happened very early on in the process.

8:34

So I changed the name from cabin to

8:36

dwelling because it's more encompassing. Because

8:39

in this title as dwellings,

8:42

you can also easily transfer

8:44

that to these places in

8:46

the north where slavery was

8:48

sometimes much more intimate. You

8:50

had more people, enslaving people,

8:53

but they were enslaving less

8:55

people. These people are

8:57

sometimes on the property that they're

8:59

on from birth to death in

9:02

close proximity. So sometimes these enslaved

9:04

people are living in the attics

9:06

or sometimes they're living in the

9:08

basement. Sometimes these places

9:10

are saved by default just based on

9:13

the fact that they want to save

9:15

the parts that apply to their ancestors.

9:17

You know, those are dwellings also where

9:19

our enslaved ancestors once inhabited. It's

9:22

all encompassing. In

9:24

sleeping with the ancestors, you discussed

9:26

the impact of your military service

9:29

or your career trajectory into history.

9:31

Would you share with us how your tenure in

9:34

the Air Force led you to your

9:36

current history preservation work? I'm

9:38

from a small town of King

9:40

Street, South Carolina. And

9:43

the population there is probably about

9:45

5,000 for the whole county. And

9:48

in the third or fourth grade, maybe

9:51

fifth, the schools were integrated.

9:53

And to young kids, that's a good thing.

9:56

You know, you just get to be kids.

9:58

You just because you're kids. You

10:00

do kids things, you think kid things. And

10:03

what you see in front of you is a

10:05

person, a person, until you

10:07

grow up and then you become

10:09

more biased in your thinking, but

10:12

being from a small town, you kind

10:14

of stay with those biases that you

10:16

have and sometimes don't know you have.

10:18

And then you're released into a

10:20

world where you have to survive.

10:23

So my version of that was graduating

10:26

from high school in June,

10:29

no, maybe May of 1979. And

10:32

two weeks later, I'm in the Air Force. So

10:34

I'm in San Antonio, Texas, and

10:37

I'm being amongst all the others.

10:39

I was rare. There were other

10:41

blacks with me, but their

10:43

numbers were far less than there were whites.

10:47

So, you know, that's the world I had to

10:49

live in for six years and

10:51

adjust. But what that

10:53

taught me is not to be afraid of

10:55

the unknown. And even

10:58

more so than that was you

11:00

have to give individuals opportunities and

11:03

you shouldn't judge others of that

11:05

same likeness of this other individual. You

11:08

should not judge them as a group.

11:10

You should judge them all individually. Now

11:13

they may prove to you that they're

11:15

not of your liking, but give them

11:17

that chance to prove that, you know,

11:19

you may find that otherwise. So

11:21

I'm not afraid of the unknown. So

11:24

the Air Force kind of thrusts me

11:26

into survival in their entity to do

11:28

the six years that I did and

11:30

get the opportunities to travel to places

11:32

that I traveled in one place in

11:35

particular that is very vital to this

11:37

story is I got

11:39

to go into the place

11:41

where Anne Frank hid from

11:44

the Germans. And

11:46

in that space, it planted

11:48

a seed that would lie dormant

11:50

about spaces and the need to

11:53

preserve these spaces. Although

11:55

the history of these

11:57

places are not always positive. Having

12:00

the place there gives you the opportunity to

12:02

go into that place and feel whatever you

12:04

want to feel. But if the

12:06

place is not there, the opportunity lies

12:09

to continue to deny the existence

12:11

of that place and therefore the existence of

12:14

the people who inhabited those spaces. So

12:16

it's very important that we save the

12:19

places because we can. Slave

12:21

dwellings come in many forms as

12:23

you shared, from grand

12:25

plantation houses to humble cabins.

12:28

Each dwelling tells a unique story

12:31

about the lives of enslaved people

12:33

and the system of slavery that

12:35

shaped America. How do you

12:37

choose which slave dwellings to visit and spend

12:39

the night in? Well, the

12:41

thing about the Big House is when I started

12:44

14 years ago, I would

12:47

go to these sites and

12:49

first thing the site manager of the

12:51

place would want to show me is

12:53

the Big House and I resisted. And

12:56

I think my resistance showed to

12:58

them. But here's how I have

13:00

changed my way of thinking about

13:03

that. In those big

13:05

houses, we can interpret things that

13:08

I'm sure some of the current

13:11

interpreters fail to do. We

13:13

can interpret that nice grand staircase when you come

13:15

through the front of the house as

13:18

spatial segregation because that's for the white

13:20

folks who enter that space to

13:22

have access through this by way of

13:24

this nice grand stairs. If

13:26

the enslaved people working in that same

13:28

space are existing in that same space

13:30

for whatever reason, wants access to the

13:33

upper level, there's usually a second set

13:35

of stairs. And those are

13:37

the things that these interpreters can

13:39

be talking about. Or

13:42

you can tell them that if they

13:44

peel back the layers of what is

13:46

now this nice architecturally significant house and

13:48

you see those ax marks on

13:50

those logs that used to be

13:52

trees, that's now the

13:55

infrastructure of that house that's holding it

13:57

together. You interpret the fact that those

13:59

were... placed there by enslaved people.

14:02

You can include that in your

14:04

narrative. Now, when I

14:06

go to these spaces and then it's

14:08

only the big house that's standing and

14:10

I sleep in them, because we belong

14:12

there too. You

14:14

shared that a slave dwelling can come

14:17

in a variety of sizes and

14:19

building materials based on the reason

14:21

in which they were constructed. Knowing

14:24

this history, how do you

14:26

prepare for an overnight stay? 14

14:30

years ago when I started, a lot of these

14:32

spaces that I was going to, I was going

14:34

to for the first time on the day that

14:36

I was supposed to spend the night in this

14:38

unfamiliar space, outside alone in

14:40

some cases. So at the

14:42

beginning, I was taking, having a sleeping

14:44

bag and a pillow and a club

14:47

in anticipation of maybe an animal

14:50

or raccoon or possum or something, trying

14:52

to nibble at my feet or something

14:54

of that nature. So I was taking

14:56

that. Now, initially

14:59

when I started this thing 14 years ago,

15:01

I was only going to stay in

15:04

the state of South Carolina and do

15:06

that because that's where my limited resources

15:08

would take me. And sometimes

15:10

the invitations that were getting on

15:12

the calendar, a lot of times

15:14

the slave dwellings weren't there. Sometimes

15:17

there were ruins, you know, there are

15:19

the tabby ruins on the Fuskey Island.

15:22

So that factored in also,

15:25

but most of the places that

15:27

went on to the calendar

15:29

initially were indeed where slave

15:31

cabins still existed or reproduce

15:33

based on archeology that was

15:35

done in that space. The

15:38

cabins at the presidential sites,

15:41

Jefferson and Madison, they

15:43

are recreated based on the archeology

15:45

that was done there. So

15:48

the cabins that are usually built

15:50

for field hands, they're usually

15:53

duplexes. The chimneys are usually in

15:55

the middle and again, it depends

15:57

on if it's the first generation

16:00

cabins are second generation of cabins

16:02

that you're talking about because

16:04

on the more established plantations

16:07

on the east, they

16:09

sometimes if cabins still exist,

16:12

they're the second generation of cabins

16:14

that were built there at that

16:16

site or sometimes maybe even the

16:18

third depending on the particular plantations

16:20

were existing. Most of

16:22

them if they were built there for

16:24

the field hands there would be duplexes

16:27

with the chimney in the middle and

16:29

that's a telltale sign of these

16:32

cabins. Now if the enslaved

16:34

people were working in

16:37

or near the big house you know

16:39

as the blacksmith or the cook or

16:42

the washer woman they would be

16:44

living in cabins closer to the

16:46

big house. These cabins

16:48

closer to the big house would

16:51

be more aesthetically pleasing because

16:53

they're near the big house. So

16:56

a lot of these cabins or

16:58

a lot of these dwellings still

17:00

exist that are near the big house

17:02

because they're usually built of the same

17:04

material as the big house. Brick,

17:07

more sturdy, so

17:09

there are those spaces also but

17:12

the spaces come in various sizes and

17:14

they're various uses. Some of these uses

17:16

will upset you but

17:18

these spaces exist

17:21

and they're being used as

17:23

various things that I've seen

17:25

in my time but I'll put a

17:27

period right there. Joe

17:29

this is fascinating. I can't

17:31

wait to learn more about your overnight

17:34

experiences in these dwellings. We'll

17:36

dive more into your story after we

17:38

take a moment to appreciate our

17:40

episode sponsor. On June

17:43

19th Americans will celebrate Juneteenth,

17:46

a national holiday that commemorates and celebrates the

17:48

end of slavery in the United States. My

17:51

colleagues and I at the Colonial Williamsburg

17:53

Foundation invite you to come spend Juneteenth

17:55

with us. Colonial Williamsburg's

17:57

Juneteenth celebration will be spread over three

18:00

days this year, from Sunday June 16 through

18:03

Wednesday June 19. We have lots of great

18:06

programs and events planned that

18:08

commemorate emancipation through themes of

18:10

family, resilience, achievement, and spirituality.

18:13

Master blacksmith Darrell Rees and his apprentice

18:15

Corinne Araca will be giving talks and

18:18

working in the Colonial Williamsburg blacksmith shop

18:20

demonstrating 18th and 19th century

18:22

traditions of African American ironwork.

18:25

Acclaimed storyteller Sheila Arnold will help

18:27

us embrace the power of hope,

18:29

resilience, and the unyielding desire for

18:31

freedom in a couple of different

18:33

programs, including Permission to be Free,

18:36

a Juneteenth story. And

18:38

the world-renowned poet Nikki Giovanni

18:40

will speak at Colonial Williamsburg's

18:42

annual Juneteenth sunrise service. Plus,

18:45

my colleagues throughout our art museums

18:47

and historic area will offer special

18:49

tours, performances, and programs. So please,

18:51

come to Williamsburg and join us.

18:54

Visit colonialweansburg.org/Juneteenth for a complete

18:56

list of Colonial Williamsburg's Juneteenth

18:58

festivities and how you can

19:00

plan your visit. That's

19:02

colonialweansburg.org slash

19:05

Juneteenth. And if you do come

19:07

to Williamsburg, let me know you're coming because

19:09

the Innovation Studios team and I will

19:11

be walking around the historic area supporting

19:13

and enjoying these great programs. So

19:16

Joe, would you share with us

19:18

what it was like on your first overnight

19:20

stay? Oh, the first

19:23

one. Yeah. In fact, it

19:25

was 14 years ago, Mother's

19:28

Day, Magnolia Plantation. Let

19:31

me tell you about the action before and

19:33

getting there. So the word

19:35

was out. It was pretty

19:37

popular. So therefore, at Magnolia

19:40

Plantation, the very first night,

19:42

there was a local TV news

19:44

camera there to cover it. The

19:47

host had lit the fire in the fireplace,

19:49

although it was made, it wasn't necessary. But

19:51

you know, looking back, it was ambient. It

19:54

was all about the space and the ambient

19:56

and it was a good decision. So

19:59

I'm told the story by the cameraman

20:01

from the TV station. And he

20:03

talks about a time in South

20:06

Africa when he was in a

20:08

tent about to go to

20:10

sleep. And he is awakened by a

20:12

thud on his chest. That

20:15

thud on his chest is a tarantula.

20:18

So he tells me his little story and he leaves.

20:21

The other guy who was there, Chris

20:23

Smith, he is kind of over

20:25

the wildlife. He knows, he reminds

20:27

me that there are alligators on this

20:29

property and he leaves. So

20:32

now here I am in this cabin with

20:34

an oak tree right beside it with

20:36

the limb that every time the wind

20:39

blows, it interacts with the roof. And

20:42

I have to get up about five times to

20:44

verify that that's what I'm hearing. But

20:46

even before all that is the thoughts,

20:48

the thoughts that are in your head

20:50

about actual people who may have

20:53

been sleeping in these spaces and people like

20:55

them and what they thought about. Did

20:57

they think about their stolen labor?

20:59

Do they think about running away?

21:01

Did the mothers think about the fact

21:03

that they are the birth mothers of

21:06

these children's, but the laws of

21:08

that time said they weren't? They

21:10

said that they were chattel. So

21:12

you think about things, then

21:14

you eventually go to sleep. You know, if you

21:16

could turn your mind off after thinking about those

21:19

things. And I did. I

21:21

went to sleep and I woke up

21:23

the next morning, Mother's Day of 2010,

21:26

and I was not familiar with the

21:28

property. This was my second time on

21:30

that property. So not nowhere I was

21:32

going, I took a walk and I

21:34

ended up in the cemetery and I

21:36

saw the headstones that were there because it was

21:39

an active cemetery up until the 1990s. But

21:42

the older headstones indicated

21:44

to me that some of these people

21:46

were born and slave but died free

21:49

because they had a headstone. Now,

21:52

after those headstones ended and before

21:54

the tree line started as a

21:56

grassy spot and in that

21:58

grassy spot, if you know what to look for

22:01

and what you look for the indentations

22:04

because if they were lucky enough to

22:06

have been buried in a box, that

22:08

box would eventually give way and the

22:10

earth above it would conform. So

22:13

that's one of those telltale signs. And that's

22:15

why and when I knew that I was

22:17

about to go on this journey to tell

22:20

their stories because on

22:22

this earth, they were

22:24

muted. And now we

22:26

have an opportunity to tell their stories.

22:28

And that's what these spaces can do.

22:31

That's what these slave dwellings can do.

22:33

We remind people of these things and

22:35

keep them reminded. So that's what we

22:38

do. I'm sure

22:40

your work has prompted diverse

22:42

reactions, reflecting the complex nature

22:44

of discussing slavery and its

22:47

impacts on American society. Overall,

22:49

how has your work with the slave

22:51

dwelling project been received? We

22:54

think it's told best by the

22:56

number of places that invite me

22:58

back. There's a whole list

23:00

of those. So in my head, that

23:02

looks great. But to

23:04

anyone on the outside looking in,

23:07

we invite people to invite us

23:09

in. You know, we can

23:11

come into your world and show

23:13

you where those places are those

23:16

slave dwellings nearest you.

23:19

And we can let you know if we

23:21

have interacted with those places or

23:23

should be interacting with those places.

23:25

Because you know, sometimes we have

23:28

to remind folks that we are

23:30

here for them and they can

23:32

have access to us if they

23:34

just choose to. So

23:36

have there been any challenges or obstacles

23:39

that have discouraged you from staying at

23:41

a particular site? Yeah, we

23:43

got some no's when I first started

23:46

pitching the idea to folks

23:48

very early on in the process.

23:50

And I cannot fault folks for

23:53

not wanting to believe

23:56

a person wanting to come spend the

23:58

night in your I

34:00

don't want to agree with you, but telling the

34:02

stories through the documented

34:04

history, the receipts as

34:07

they are now known, continuing to

34:09

tell the stories of our

34:11

enslaved ancestors and the Slave Dwelling Project is

34:14

proud to be a part of that. I

34:16

think we are governed to do

34:18

just that. So, Joe,

34:20

what do you hope readers will take

34:23

away from your book, Sleeping with the

34:25

Ancestors? The book

34:27

is that way of allowing

34:30

readers to be that

34:32

reader. But

34:34

if you think about your history class, sometimes

34:37

for a lot of people, it was

34:39

a class that they probably dreaded. But

34:42

think about this as

34:44

that history class in the

34:46

amount of time it takes you to read 85,000

34:49

words, or you can listen to it

34:51

also. So there's that option.

34:54

But I want to give people that opportunity

34:56

to see history in

34:58

that capsulated way through my

35:00

eyes, to know it

35:03

should be something that should be

35:05

remembered and learned from, or used

35:09

as an opportunity to not to do some

35:11

of the things we've done in the past

35:13

because we've done some bad things. And

35:16

I think that by reminding

35:18

people of those things

35:20

is good. But also through

35:22

the living historians, reminding people

35:24

that we were still resilient,

35:26

we were still human, we

35:28

still made it through. And

35:31

we, as folks today, are the results of

35:33

that. We are the evidence of their

35:36

existence. We are their hope, and

35:38

we should speak loudly about them. Before

35:42

we move on to the time warp question, Joe,

35:44

what advice would you give others who want

35:47

to get involved in preserving African

35:49

American history and heritage? Well,

35:52

you're going to have to live it, you're going to

35:54

have to breathe it. Kind of like what I did

35:56

with an idea about sleeping in places

35:59

everybody can see.