0:00

You're listening to an Airwave

0:02

Media Podcast. Ben Franklin's

0:04

world is a production of

0:06

Colonial Williamsburg Innovation Studios. Deciding

0:09

to side with the

0:11

radicals is still an

0:14

uncertain bet. But Hancock also

0:16

saw the power of violent

0:18

mobs. He saw the power

0:21

of the people exerting themselves especially in

0:23

Boston, and he wanted to stay in

0:26

their good graces. Hello

0:36

and welcome to episode 388 of Ben Franklin's world. The

0:41

podcast dedicated to helping you learn more about

0:43

how the people and events of our early

0:45

American past have shaped the present day world

0:47

we live in. And I'm

0:49

your host, Liz Kovart. Happy

0:52

4th of July. For

0:54

years now, we've been creating special episodes

0:56

to commemorate, celebrate, and remember the 4th

0:58

of July. Many of our

1:00

episodes have focused on the Declaration of Independence,

1:02

how and why it was created, the

1:04

ideas behind it, and its sacred words.

1:07

We hold these truths to be self-evident that

1:09

all men are created equal, that

1:11

they are endowed by their creator

1:13

with certain unalienable rights, that among

1:15

these are life, liberty, and the pursuit

1:18

of happiness. This year,

1:20

I thought we'd examine a different aspect

1:22

of the Declaration of Independence. The

1:24

man behind the boldest signature on

1:27

the document, John Hancock. Brooke

1:29

Barbier is a public historian and holds

1:31

a PhD in American history from Boston

1:34

College. She's also the

1:36

author of the first biography in

1:38

many years about John Hancock. It's

1:40

called King Hancock, the radical influence

1:42

of a moderate founding father. Now

1:45

as we investigate the life and work of

1:47

John Hancock, Brooke reveals how

1:49

John Hancock became involved with the American

1:51

Revolution and its politics and economics. The

1:54

process behind John Hancock's decision to

1:56

support the American Revolution and serve

1:58

in various leadership roles in Boston,

2:01

Massachusetts, and at the Second Continental

2:03

Congress, and details about

2:05

John Hancock's signature on the Declaration

2:08

of Independence. But first,

2:11

Episode 400 is right around the corner, and

2:13

we need your help to figure out how

2:15

we should celebrate. What kind

2:17

of episode would you like to hear for Episode 400?

2:21

We're asking this question of members of our listener

2:23

community on Facebook, but if you're not on Facebook,

2:25

you can still tell us what you think by

2:27

sending me an email. That's

2:29

Liz at BenFranklin'sWorld.com. That's

2:32

Liz at BenFranklin'sWorld.com to share your ideas

2:35

on how we should mark Episode Or,

2:38

you can tell us what you think in the

2:40

listener community on Facebook. Okay,

2:42

are you ready to go behind the scenes

2:45

of the most famous signature on the Declaration

2:47

of Independence? Let's go

2:49

meet our guest historian. Joining

3:05

us is a public historian who received

3:07

her PhD in American history from Boston

3:09

College. Angie is worked as

3:12

a lecturer at Boston College and Stonehill

3:14

College in Massachusetts. She's

3:16

the founder of U-Old Tavern Tours, which

3:18

offers tours of Boston's historic sites and

3:20

taverns. Her research focuses

3:22

on Boston's social and cultural life

3:24

during the American Revolution, and

3:27

she's the author of King Hancock, the

3:29

radical influence of a moderate founding father.

3:32

Welcome to BenFranklin's World, Brooke Barbier. Thanks

3:35

so much for having me, Liz. As a long-time listener

3:38

of the podcast, it's such a thrill to be on

3:40

it. Well, we're really excited to

3:42

have you on the show, Brooke, to talk about

3:44

John Hancock. Now, as an

3:46

active listener, Brooke, you may know that

3:48

last year we were talking about Hancock's

3:51

on-again, off-again friend, Samuel Adams. So

3:53

I think it really will be great to have

3:55

this conversation about John Hancock. So,

3:57

Brooke, you've written a biography of John

4:00

Hancock. It's called King Hancock. And

4:02

it's really the first biography that I can think of

4:05

that has been written about Hancock in such a

4:07

long time. So would you tell us how

4:10

you came to write a biography of John

4:12

Hancock and why you titled it King Hancock?

4:14

Because if we think about John

4:16

Hancock, many of us will remember his very

4:18

large signature on the Declaration of Independence, basically

4:21

doing away with Kings and what is now

4:23

the United States. I

4:25

loved the title of King Hancock because

4:28

it was a nickname that Hancock had.

4:30

It's an intentionally provocative title

4:33

because this is a revolutionary

4:35

who ultimately separated from the

4:37

British Empire and the Crown,

4:40

but it was a nickname that he

4:42

had both used as an insult and

4:44

in a positive way. When

4:47

we first hear it is in 1774, British

4:50

officers have arrived in Boston and

4:52

they held captive a man demanding

4:54

to know from him who ordered

4:56

the destruction of the tea. When

4:59

this man said, nobody, the officer

5:02

shouted at him, you're a damned

5:04

liar. It was King Hancock

5:06

and the damned sons of liberty. Now

5:09

this nickname was really clever because

5:11

it captures Hancock's enormous popularity in

5:13

town, but it also serves as

5:15

an insult that the best the

5:17

colonists can do for their monarch

5:19

is this guy, John Hancock, while

5:21

they have the real monarch King

5:23

George III. But

5:25

then something extraordinary happens and

5:28

that happens on April 19th, 1775. Many

5:32

of our listeners will know that that

5:34

day is the day the Revolutionary War

5:36

began in Lexington and conquered. And

5:38

as the British were retreating out of

5:41

conquered that afternoon, they were

5:43

being fired on by colonists. That's

5:45

bad enough. Worse, they couldn't

5:47

see where the colonists were firing

5:49

from. They were firing

5:51

from inside homes and behind walls

5:54

and trees. And then even worse

5:56

than that, a British officer

5:58

recalled that as the colonists retreating out

6:00

of Concord back to Boston, they heard

6:02

the colonists firing on them cry out,

6:05

King Hancock forever. So

6:08

this nickname had been appropriated. It

6:10

had been an insult when used

6:12

by British officers and a literal

6:14

rallying cry on the day the

6:16

Revolutionary War began. Such was Hancock's

6:19

appeal. That's a really interesting

6:21

story. And I will say that

6:23

one of the things that fascinates me about April

6:25

19 is that we learned, thanks to

6:27

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, that Paul Revere goes out

6:29

into the countryside to shout, the British are coming,

6:31

which is something Paul Revere never would have said

6:34

because they're all British. At this point, he's

6:36

British. He would have shouted, the regulars are coming

6:38

or the red coats are coming. Or if he

6:40

wanted to be profane, he would have said

6:42

the lobster backs are coming. But

6:45

Revere wasn't just out to warn

6:47

the countryside that the regulars were

6:49

coming and marching from Boston. He

6:51

was also writing to warn John

6:53

Hancock and Samuel Adams who were

6:55

staying out in Lexington that they

6:57

had to go because the British

6:59

have left Boston and part of

7:01

their mission is to capture these

7:03

two revolutionaries. Yeah, that's right. And

7:05

that's one of my favorite scenes

7:07

in the book. I'm one

7:10

of my favorite memories of

7:12

Hancock because Hancock is so

7:14

unfazed when Revere arrives to

7:16

the house, the Hancock Clerkhouse,

7:18

which still stands today. Revere

7:20

arrives and says the regulars are coming and

7:23

he's being shushed by the guards

7:25

in front of the Hancock Clerkhouse.

7:28

And Hancock hears this disturbance

7:31

and leans out the window and says, come in

7:33

Revere, we're not afraid of you. And Revere

7:35

comes in to say, get out, get out

7:38

of the house, get out of Lexington. And

7:40

Hancock takes out his sword, thinking he's

7:43

going to take on the British soldiers

7:45

himself. And then he and

7:47

Adams ultimately flee. And later that morning,

7:49

Hancock is concerned with his salmon that

7:51

he left at the house in Lexington.

7:53

So it's this major moment that

7:55

is an understatement. It is a

7:58

pivotal moment in the. colonial

8:00

history and then future United States

8:02

history and Hancock is so unfazed

8:05

and continues to just be having

8:07

a morning just a more difficult

8:09

morning than he expected. Well

8:12

let's dig in into how John Hancock became

8:14

involved with the American Revolution so we can

8:16

even better understand these stories that we're talking

8:18

about. So Brooke you

8:20

wrote a biography of Hancock and we know

8:22

that biographies are designed to start at the

8:25

beginning of someone's life so

8:27

let's start there. Would you tell us

8:29

what we need to know about John

8:31

Hancock's childhood and early life? Yes

8:34

and it's not much. Hancock

8:36

was the third John Hancock.

8:39

His father and grandfather also

8:41

John Hancock's were ministers and

8:45

so it would seem that the firstborn

8:47

son John Hancock would also become a

8:49

minister but his life changes.

8:51

He had been living in Gray Tree

8:53

Massachusetts as a kid where his father

8:56

had a parish but his life changes

8:58

when he's seven and his dad dies

9:00

suddenly and he

9:02

is adopted by his wealthy paternal

9:04

uncle, Uncle Thomas, a man

9:07

who lives in Boston and who had

9:09

a thriving merchant business. So

9:11

we see a boy lose his father,

9:13

be separated from his

9:16

mother and siblings and

9:18

go to live as the only

9:20

child with this shrewd

9:22

businessman in the third largest

9:24

city in the colonies. It

9:27

would be such a culture shock

9:30

for young Johnny as he was called.

9:33

He went to the finest schools including

9:36

Boston Latin School and Harvard

9:38

and then took on sort

9:40

of an apprenticeship with his

9:42

uncle with the business being

9:44

called the House of Hancock and

9:47

then at some point Uncle Thomas formally

9:49

announces that John Hancock is his partner.

9:51

John Hancock gets some on-the-job training. He

9:53

goes over to London for the first

9:55

and only time when he's a young

9:57

man and he isn't

10:00

artful or elegant with his

10:02

business transactions. He's really learning

10:04

a lot through failing, I'd

10:06

say, in those early years.

10:09

And then everything changes again.

10:12

In 1764, Uncle Thomas dies. And

10:16

while the house and its

10:19

property goes to Aunt Lydia,

10:21

Thomas's wife, all of

10:23

the business and real estate holdings go to

10:25

John Hancock. So he is 27

10:27

years old and he becomes one

10:30

of the richest men in Boston. But

10:32

Liz, the other thing to know is the

10:35

year that Uncle Thomas dies, 1764, is

10:38

the year we see the first

10:40

tax being passed by parliament,

10:42

popularly known as the Sugar Act.

10:45

And Hancock all of the sudden

10:48

is thrust into political

10:50

contention and economic strife,

10:53

all without any sort of mentor. Hancock's

10:57

training as a merchant sounds very

10:59

similar to the training that other

11:01

early American merchants received. Often if

11:03

you did come from a wealthy

11:06

mercantile house, like John Hancock

11:08

was coming from Uncle Thomas's mercantile house,

11:11

your relatives would send you to the Caribbean or

11:13

to London or to some other big European

11:15

city so that you could help

11:17

the company with trade, but also make trade

11:20

contacts and network with other traders in

11:22

these cities for when you came back

11:24

to the colonies and had to

11:26

conduct business. And in the

11:28

case of those merchants who lived in Albany where

11:30

they traded a lot with the Haudenosaunee people,

11:33

people like the Skyler family or the Kyler

11:35

family would send their relatives out to

11:37

live with the Haudenosaunee for a

11:40

summer or a year so that they could

11:42

really get to know Haudenosaunee customs to

11:44

make better trade with those peoples.

11:47

So it sounds like John Hancock's education,

11:50

he had developed this academic standing, right?

11:52

He went to Boston Latin School, he went

11:54

to Harvard at a time when basically no

11:57

one went to college. And

11:59

then he also had this. very hands-on practical

12:01

training to add to his academic

12:03

training of apprenticing with his uncle

12:05

and being sent to London so

12:07

that he can learn this trade.

12:09

Yeah, and I'd say the book

12:12

smarts don't translate to the business

12:14

smarts because in Harvard

12:16

they're teaching you how to

12:18

write lectures oftentimes or to

12:20

make legal arguments. And

12:23

Hancock, that's not what he's going to set

12:25

out to do. So I

12:27

think this is why he fumbles around

12:30

pretty early on. He

12:32

is named partner in a business simply

12:34

because he's the nephew of the owner.

12:37

He doesn't have the training. He

12:39

doesn't have that natural insight or

12:41

that shrewd business ability that his

12:43

uncle had. It takes a

12:45

lot, and you know this well for

12:47

Benjamin Franklin too, it takes a lot

12:49

to rise above your station so much

12:52

and to amass such a large fortune.

12:54

And Thomas did that in his single

12:56

lifetime. And Hancock just

12:59

didn't have that same

13:01

ability. Now what

13:03

did Hancock do in 1764

13:05

when he's just inherited his uncle

13:07

Thomas's lucrative trade business and

13:10

Parliament passes the Sugar Act and then in

13:12

1765 passes the Stamp Act? And

13:16

we should note that Parliament was taxing first

13:18

sugar, a good that the House

13:20

of Hancock was either trading or might trade

13:23

in, and then they went to tax all

13:25

sorts of paper goods with the Stamp Act,

13:27

including documents that traders like Hancock needed to

13:29

get their ships in and out of port.

13:31

So you couldn't trade unless you paid stamps

13:34

on these trading documents. This

13:37

is when we start the Stamp Act in

13:39

1765. We

13:42

start to see him finding his

13:44

way in how he's going to

13:46

argue against this. So initially

13:48

he says we must submit to this

13:50

tax. And then when

13:52

he realizes that this is very unpopular,

13:55

so much so that men

13:57

in Boston are violently rebelling.

14:00

against both the Stamp Act

14:02

collector, Andrew Oliver, and the

14:04

Lieutenant Governor, Thomas Hutchinson, you

14:06

see Hancock change his tune and he

14:08

starts to say, you're going to hurt

14:11

our trade. So he

14:13

goes from a, we must submit

14:15

to an economic argument. He writes

14:17

to his fellow business partners in

14:19

London saying, you have to

14:21

lobby for us to parliament because we

14:23

won't survive the Stamp Act. And

14:26

then even later, he adapts

14:28

his mentality again and

14:30

he starts making constitutional arguments saying

14:33

this isn't constitutional to tax us.

14:37

So we see an evolution with the Stamp

14:39

Act. He goes through fits

14:41

and starts of finding his

14:44

voice and finding his arguments. But

14:46

I'd say the most powerful one

14:48

for him is the economic effect

14:50

that the Stamp Act would have.

14:53

And unlike those who comprise

14:55

the violent mobs who targeted

14:57

Oliver and Hutchinson, Hancock

14:59

has an advantage because he has these

15:02

contacts in London. He does

15:04

have a voice that people listen to. He

15:06

has a prominent trading house. So

15:09

ultimately, it is the

15:11

effort of Hancock and many

15:13

other merchants who successfully lobby

15:15

the merchants in London to

15:18

lobby the parliamentary members and the

15:20

Stamp Act is repealed. We

15:23

see Hancock start to step into

15:25

the power that he has. Everyone

15:29

came to the American Revolution, those who

15:31

supported it for their own reasons.

15:34

And it's really interesting how John Hancock came

15:36

to the American Revolution, because it

15:38

seems like his support for the revolution was

15:41

almost situational. So I wonder if you

15:43

could tell us even more about how

15:45

John Hancock became involved in the revolution,

15:47

because we've all heard and read historians

15:49

who say, oh, the revolution

15:51

was an economic movement. Others who said

15:54

no, it's a political and intellectual movement

15:56

where the revolution was all about book

15:58

smarts that Hancock and his peers acquired

16:00

while reading law, history, and philosophy at

16:03

places like Harvard. And still

16:05

there are other scholars that say, no, no, no. The

16:08

American Revolution was really a social

16:10

movement. It was about social mobility

16:12

and increasing access to economic and

16:14

political power and fixing

16:16

the problems in American society that Great

16:18

Britain just couldn't fix because Americans felt

16:20

that the British imperial government was just

16:23

too far removed from North America to

16:26

completely understand the problems that

16:28

early Americans faced. So

16:30

there's a lot of different reasons why the

16:32

revolution happened, and it's always fascinating to find

16:34

out how certain people became

16:37

revolutionaries. So would you tell us

16:39

more about Hancock's revolutionary journey? Hancock

16:42

gets involved, as I said with the Stamp

16:45

Act, but you see it continuing in

16:47

fits and starts. He goes in on the

16:49

rebellion, and then he comes out on the

16:51

rebellion. After the Stamp

16:54

Act is repealed, Hancock resumes business. And

16:56

I think this is one thing that

16:59

I had to relearn a lot,

17:02

which is that just because there was

17:04

a tax passed, let's say the Stamp

17:07

Act in 1765, that didn't

17:09

mean that colonists suddenly said, we want

17:12

to separate from the British empire. That's

17:14

it, one errant tax, and we're out

17:17

of here. Hancock

17:19

was proud to be a member of

17:21

the British empire, and it's understandable why

17:23

his uncle had

17:25

made a fortune under the British

17:27

empire. Hancock had a

17:29

nice life under the British empire. So

17:32

while someone like Samuel Adams

17:35

continues to see political threats that

17:38

may or may not exist, Hancock

17:40

is happy to go about his

17:42

business. And it's

17:44

not until another tax or

17:46

other violent mobs catch his

17:49

attention that he re-engages. I

17:52

wonder if we could also talk about John

17:54

Hancock's role in the revolution as far as

17:56

smuggling is concerned, because John Hancock's name comes

17:58

up early in the day. Often when you

18:00

look at the history of smuggling and Great

18:02

Britain was bringing up his name as

18:05

a really big smuggler. So we

18:08

know that during the Townsend duties in

18:10

the 1770s that Great Britain really tried

18:12

to crack down on smugglers like John

18:15

Hancock so that it could raise the

18:17

revenue it needed to keep the 10,000

18:19

soldiers it had stationed at the frontier

18:21

outposts after the Seven Years War at

18:24

those outposts wanted to protect the colonists

18:26

and its imperial holdings in North America.

18:29

So Brooke, could you tell us more

18:31

about John Hancock's smuggling and tax evasion

18:33

during the early 1770s and

18:36

how that impacted his ideas about

18:38

the American Revolution? Smuggling

18:41

was so prevalent in colonial

18:43

America, but especially in Boston,

18:46

that when the Sugar Act

18:48

is passed in 1764, there's

18:51

also other regulations put in

18:53

place to try and curb

18:55

smuggling. So we see

18:57

as early as 1764 that Parliament

18:59

wants to crack down on smuggling. But

19:02

in 1767, when they passed the Townsend

19:05

duties, they also established a

19:07

new customs board in Boston because they

19:09

say we need to put some heft

19:11

behind these taxes and

19:13

actually collect them. And

19:17

you can see that in some

19:19

ways from the letters that customs

19:21

officials wrote that it's almost personal

19:24

that they want to stop the

19:26

smuggling in Boston because they complain

19:29

that Boston has this very permissive

19:31

attitude toward it. And

19:33

there would be no bigger target

19:35

to get than John Hancock, one

19:38

of the most popular merchants. We

19:40

can talk about it, but it's one

19:43

of the moments that Hancock emerges

19:45

unequivocally as a town leader and

19:48

in some ways as a town

19:50

hero. And that's when

19:52

he smuggles in wine into Boston. Yeah,

19:55

let's talk about smuggling, especially as we think

19:57

of Boston as a city that smuggled plenty

19:59

of tea. but not necessarily

20:01

wine. Hancock was a lover

20:03

of Madera wine, which

20:06

is a fortified wine from an island of the same

20:08

name. And it was subjected to

20:10

higher taxes, but he could

20:12

afford it. And so it was something he loved.

20:15

And in June 1768, one of

20:17

his ships docks in Boston, and

20:19

the captain declares that there's 25

20:22

tasks of Madera on board, and

20:24

he pays the customs duties and they go their separate

20:26

ways, the customs official and the captain, that

20:28

is. But then the Tidesman,

20:30

that is the customs official, was

20:33

named Thomas Kirk. He gets questions saying,

20:35

there's no way that Hancock's ship, called

20:37

Liberty, there's no way that Liberty

20:39

only had 25 tasks of Madera on board.

20:42

It has such a larger capacity. You

20:45

got lied to. And Kirk defended

20:47

it, then said, no, everything was on

20:49

the level. And then a

20:51

month later, Kirk comes forward and changes his

20:53

story saying, not only was I

20:55

not telling the truth, I wasn't telling

20:57

the truth because I was afraid. And

21:00

I was afraid because John

21:02

Hancock's captain, called John Marshall,

21:05

was scary. But John Marshall

21:07

had recently died. And so Kirk said,

21:09

okay, now I'm going to come forward and tell the true

21:11

story. And he spins this whole

21:13

account of how John Marshall asked Kirk to

21:16

look the other way while they smuggled. And

21:19

Kirk said that when he refused, he was

21:21

locked into a cabin with the top nailed

21:23

shut. And for three

21:25

hours, Kirk could hear the noise of the

21:28

tackles and the hoisting of goods. And

21:30

then the noise stops. And Marshall

21:32

opens the cabin's doorway and tells Kirk that

21:35

if he breathed a word about what he

21:37

saw or heard that night, he and his

21:39

property would be harmed. Now,

21:41

this story is the work of an

21:43

imaginative mind, Liz, but it does what

21:46

it needed. It gives

21:48

customs officials that excuse to

21:50

go target Hancock. And they go

21:52

down to Hancock's wharf and seize that

21:55

ship called Liberty. The irony

21:57

is not lost here, that they seize

21:59

Hancock's Liberty. They brand the

22:01

mask with the King's Mark and then

22:03

haul it out to Boston Harbor and

22:05

the townspeople erupt. They had

22:07

warned those customs officials, don't seize Hancock

22:09

ship unless you want to be chucked

22:11

into the harbor. The

22:14

customs commissioners either weren't afraid of

22:16

that or were so

22:18

determined that after seizing Hancock

22:20

ship, the townspeople beat

22:22

down those customs officials. Eventually,

22:25

and this is really wild, they

22:27

dragged one of the customs commissioners'

22:29

boats out of Boston Harbor. They

22:31

hauled it through the streets of

22:33

Boston up to Boston Common where

22:36

they set the boat on fire.

22:39

So this was a stunning display

22:41

by the town to defend Hancock's

22:43

right to smuggle wine. And

22:46

it shows how popular he was

22:48

in Boston. And we should

22:50

say that boats aren't as easy to get in

22:52

and out of the water in the 18th century

22:55

when you don't have a pickup truck and a

22:57

trailer where you can just back the trailer into

22:59

the water and then pull the boat out. They're

23:01

actually pretty difficult to get out of the water.

23:05

The royal governor, Governor Bernard, said there was about 500

23:07

to 1000 men and that they were fueled by rum.

23:12

So they had some liquid

23:14

strength coursing through their veins.

23:17

So it sounds like at this point

23:19

Hancock went from being involved in the

23:21

revolutionary cause and being upset with all

23:23

of this parliamentary taxation. To

23:25

really taking on a role as a community

23:27

leader in Boston's revolutionary movement

23:30

and activities. And Brooke,

23:32

you mentioned that the Liberty incident played

23:34

a role in Hancock's leadership. So I

23:36

wonder if you would tell us more

23:38

about how John Hancock became a leader

23:40

of Boston's revolutionary movement. We

23:43

see him really grow his

23:45

profile with the Liberty Riot.

23:47

And the Liberty Riot grew his profile

23:50

in good ways and bad. It

23:52

grew it nationally among the colonies, but

23:54

it also grew it in London. The

23:57

officials in London started to realize. this

24:00

was a man who garnered a lot

24:02

of popularity. Hancock goes

24:04

along with the non-importation agreement

24:07

in Boston that begins in

24:09

1769, and he's one of the leaders. And

24:11

then when most of the Townshend duties are

24:13

lifted in 1770, Hancock goes

24:16

back to being a merchant. We

24:18

know that after the Boston Massacre,

24:20

there was a lot of calm

24:23

that descends not just in Boston,

24:25

but throughout the colonies. And for

24:27

three years, Hancock goes back to

24:29

resuming his business. He goes back

24:32

to enjoying himself, taking vacations, having

24:34

parties, and it's not

24:36

until the Tea Act that he

24:38

re-engages. So this is where

24:41

I say he's in on the resistance and

24:43

then he's out. For

24:45

a few years, he was happy to

24:47

trade with the British Empire. He was

24:49

happy to not worry

24:52

about any threats, like

24:54

now that the Crown was gonna pay the

24:56

judges' salaries. That was something that happened in

24:58

1772 when Samuel

25:00

Adams was furious about this. Whereas

25:03

John Hancock just didn't care much. But

25:06

it takes the Tea Act to reignite him.

25:09

The Tea Act was passed in 1773, and

25:12

Hancock was such a large importer of

25:14

tea in the years leading

25:16

up to the Tea Act that this would significantly

25:18

affect his business because now

25:20

he wouldn't be able to sell

25:22

the tea. It was just the

25:24

designated tea consignees who could and

25:27

not surprisingly, Hancock hadn't been named one

25:29

of them. So the

25:32

Tea Act reactivates him, and

25:35

he becomes a supporter of

25:37

the Boston Tea Party, even

25:39

speaking to the crowd moments before they

25:41

went down to Griffin's Wharf to dump

25:43

the tea overboard. But

25:46

then Hancock shows himself again

25:48

to pull back. So

25:50

during that winter after the Tea Party,

25:52

he really retires to his home. He

25:55

emerges again in 1774. He

25:58

was asked to lead the Boston

26:00

massacre. oration. This was a high

26:02

honor, very high visibility, and he

26:05

gives a stirring speech. But

26:07

just a couple of weeks later, he gets

26:09

in a fight with Samuel Adams

26:11

because Adams doesn't want Hancock to

26:14

attend the funeral of a royal

26:16

official who had just died. And

26:18

Hancock does attend saying that

26:20

I'm honoring the position, not

26:23

the man himself. And

26:25

so this is where even

26:27

as late as 1774, we see

26:29

him figuring out what

26:32

might work best for him. And

26:34

then when the provincial Congress begins

26:36

meeting, he doesn't join,

26:39

he doesn't attend the first Continental

26:41

Congress. And it's only later that

26:43

he decides to join the provincial

26:45

Congress and he has named its

26:48

president. And that is a significant

26:50

move, Liz, because the provincial Congress

26:52

is essentially an illegal rogue government

26:54

that is now declaring that they

26:56

have the authority in

26:59

Massachusetts to raise militia, collect arms,

27:01

and Hancock's the president. So

27:04

Hancock goes from even just a

27:06

few months earlier being less

27:09

than radical, he's

27:11

certainly disappointing Samuel Adams by not

27:13

going all in on the cause,

27:16

to being the president of

27:18

an illegal government. So

27:21

the big takeaway from all of what I

27:23

just said is that he

27:25

goes in and then he comes out.

27:28

And you can, even if we don't have

27:30

the letters from him or a diary to

27:33

talk about why he's making these choices, you

27:35

can see that he's trying to weigh

27:38

his options, that in some

27:40

ways the radicals, he finds them very

27:42

tiresome. And then he

27:44

decides ultimately, okay, I'm going to go

27:46

in. It's safer for me to go

27:48

join the provincial Congress than for me

27:51

to stay sympathetic to any crown officials.

27:54

Through the different choices that John Hancock

27:56

made, we can really see

27:58

someone who seems to have struggled with trying

28:00

to figure out whether they wanted to go

28:02

down the road of being a revolutionary and

28:04

really standing up to the British crown to

28:07

fight for their rights, versus

28:09

remaining on that path of loyal subjecthood

28:12

where we'd already said John

28:14

Hancock made a lot of money as

28:16

a merchant by trading within the British

28:18

empire. And this is a process that

28:20

we know happened, but it

28:22

was so personal we can't always see or

28:24

read about it in our history books about

28:26

the revolution. Nor is this a

28:28

process that we normally think about in relation

28:31

to John Hancock. We think of

28:33

him as this steadfast radical Boston

28:35

revolutionary from the get-go, but

28:37

John Hancock seems to have really come to a

28:40

decision after only wrestling with

28:42

what he believed would be the best course

28:44

of action. That's right.

28:46

And that's one of the things

28:49

that interests me most about him,

28:52

is that you see how

28:54

very human he is. That

28:56

his decisions, we sort

28:59

of act if we see Samuel

29:01

Adams radicalism, it's only because independence

29:03

was declared in the United States,

29:05

ultimately won and became a sovereign

29:07

nation that has grown in success

29:09

and population and size since then,

29:11

that you can say, oh, Samuel

29:13

Adams was right all along. But

29:16

that's only looking back with the

29:18

benefit of hindsight. Those who

29:20

were living through it didn't know what

29:23

was going to happen next. And

29:25

even the radicals didn't necessarily have

29:28

some grand plan. I

29:30

write in the book that

29:32

psychologists identify a tendency called

29:34

hindsight bias, wherein

29:36

past events seem predictable

29:38

or logical, and

29:40

that when looking back, it's easy to think

29:43

that there was never any other alternative or

29:45

that it happened exactly the way that it

29:47

should have. And I think

29:49

hindsight bias is really easy to succumb

29:52

to when we look at the American

29:54

Revolution because it was ultimately considered a

29:56

success. But for those living through it,

29:59

they didn't. know which side

30:01

might win. So Hancock

30:03

shows that side of it. He

30:06

is really trying to find his way.

30:08

He illustrates that, but he also

30:10

illustrates, we don't always talk about this, although

30:12

I think it's beginning to be studied by

30:14

historians more, and I hope it will be,

30:17

that group of about 40% of

30:19

people who could be called disaffected,

30:22

neutral, ambivalent, any number of things,

30:24

and they were disaffected, neutral, ambivalent

30:27

for their own reasons. But

30:29

we tend to think of the American Revolution

30:31

as this inevitable march towards

30:33

the Declaration of Independence and

30:36

then national unity, but

30:38

in fact it's so messy. And

30:40

Hancock shows us that. He shows us that

30:42

he goes in on the Sugar Act. He

30:44

opposes the Sugar Act, but then

30:46

he backs out and isn't that much bothered.

30:49

And then he goes in on the Townshend duties,

30:51

but then he comes out and begins trading and

30:53

enriching himself with the British Empire. So

30:56

he shows somebody finding their way,

30:58

and that really interests me. It

31:01

also seems like John Hancock shows us

31:04

the economic side of the Revolution's causes,

31:06

where if you look at other revolutionary

31:08

figures like John or Samuel Adams or

31:10

James Otis, they really saw

31:12

the causes of the Revolution as being much more

31:15

about the law and the amount of power Parliament

31:17

could wield over the colonies, and really

31:19

these ideological debates that

31:21

some Americans had about constitutionalism

31:24

and Enlightenment philosophies about

31:26

the role of government in people's lives. But

31:29

I didn't get that sense from your book, King

31:31

Hancock, that John Hancock was

31:33

driven by these ideological and constitutional

31:35

arguments and ideas as much

31:38

as he was driven by how parliamentary

31:40

taxation impacted his pocketbook.

31:43

Certainly not driven by ideology. He

31:46

was driven by pocketbook definitely. You can

31:48

see that so clearly. He was

31:51

also driven by a

31:53

desire to stay popular

31:56

and stay safe. His

31:58

pocketbook had been a... benefited from

32:00

the British Empire. So again,

32:03

deciding to side with the

32:05

radicals is still an

32:07

uncertain bet because some of the

32:10

wealthy, at least in Massachusetts, remained

32:12

loyalists. They knew that they had

32:14

benefited economically from the British Empire.

32:17

So Hancock was taking a chance

32:20

there, but Hancock also saw the

32:22

power of violent mobs. He

32:25

saw the power of the

32:27

people exerting themselves, especially in Boston, and

32:29

he wanted to stay in their good

32:31

graces. He really liked

32:33

to be liked. So

32:36

when he sees that this is the

32:38

way that this movement is going and

32:40

that these people love him, they

32:43

want him to be their leader, I think

32:45

that would be very appealing as well

32:47

to someone. It certainly was to Hancock.

32:50

I know we're curious to hear more about John

32:52

Hancock's popularity and how he grew it to rise

32:55

through the leadership ranks of the revolution.

32:58

But first, we need to take a moment. As

33:01

we get ready to commemorate, celebrate, and reflect

33:03

on the 250th anniversary of the Declaration

33:06

of Independence and the American Revolution,

33:09

we should remember that we're part of

33:11

a longer tradition of marking these historic

33:13

occasions. For example, 200

33:15

years ago, Americans prepared to commemorate

33:18

50 years of American independence and

33:20

democracy. As part of

33:22

their commemoration, they invited the Marquis de Lafayette,

33:24

the hero of two worlds, to return

33:26

to the United States to help them mark

33:29

the occasion. On August

33:31

16, 1824, Lafayette

33:33

arrived in New York Harbor and disembarked to a

33:35

crowd of more than 80,000 Americans

33:38

lining the streets of Manhattan. Lafayette's

33:40

landing in New York marked the start of

33:42

a 13-month tour of the United States, which

33:44

at the time consisted of 24 states. Now

33:48

none of us were alive 200 years ago

33:50

to witness this grand event and celebration, but

33:52

we can witness a recreation of parts of Lafayette's

33:55

grand tour in 2024 and 2025. 2016-2024

34:01

in honor of the 200th anniversary of

34:03

Lafayette's Grand Tour of the United States.

34:06

The American Friends of Lafayette organization will

34:08

kick off a recreation of Lafayette's return

34:10

to the United States. To

34:13

learn more about Lafayette 200 and how and where

34:15

you can attend one of its events, visit

34:19

benfranklinsworld.com/Lafayette200. That's

34:23

benfranklinsworld.com/Lafayette200. Brooke,

34:27

how did John Hancock become popular and

34:29

grow his popularity? Because he does seem

34:31

to be a man of the people,

34:33

or at least a man for the

34:35

people. And as you said, he really

34:37

liked to be liked. So would

34:40

you tell us more about John Hancock's

34:42

ability to connect with his fellow Bostonians

34:44

and with the population of greater Massachusetts?

34:47

Hancock is such a contradiction. He is

34:50

a man of contradictions because he is

34:52

this elite status. He looks elite. He

34:54

looks wealthy. He looks different than everybody

34:57

else with his powdered wig and gilded

34:59

clothing and silk stockings. And

35:01

yet he was so gifted

35:03

at connecting with people, account

35:06

after account says this of him,

35:08

that he was able to, one

35:10

observer said, that the way he

35:12

talked to somebody made you think

35:14

that he was talking to, quote,

35:16

a brother or relative. So

35:19

he had a gift for

35:21

connecting with people. He was a people

35:23

person if we use that modern term.

35:26

And someone like John Adams, for example,

35:28

simply wasn't a people person. He didn't

35:30

have those social skills. And so Hancock

35:33

made good use of that. One

35:35

of the ways he did this was by throwing parties.

35:38

He was generous with food

35:40

and drink. When he was

35:42

the Colonel of the Corps of Cadets, which

35:45

is Boston's militia group, he would host big

35:47

parties. After the Stamp

35:49

Act repeal, there was a big

35:51

party that happened on Boston Common.

35:53

And James Otis entertained people and

35:55

Hancock was entertaining people in his

35:57

home, but he also gifted wine.

36:00

to the masses. He set up a big

36:02

barrel of Madeira out in front of his

36:04

house for people to enjoy. And

36:07

he paid for a fireworks display that

36:09

evening, and he mingled with the people

36:11

outside. So we see

36:13

him do things like that, meeting

36:15

with people directly, inviting them into

36:18

his home, that people got the

36:20

feeling that he was on their

36:22

side. It doesn't hurt

36:24

when he stares down customs officials

36:26

with that liberty riot in 1768.

36:30

And when he gives, for example, the

36:32

Boston Massacre in 1774, the

36:35

massacre oration, that helps him

36:37

in Boston. But also, for

36:39

example, that speech was printed

36:41

as a pamphlet and distributed

36:44

throughout the colonies. And

36:46

so when people hear about him staring

36:48

down customs officials in 1768, or

36:51

this massacre oration in 74, that

36:53

also starts to build his popularity

36:55

because they see him in

36:58

this leadership role. So

37:00

John Hancock grows his popularity with these lavish

37:02

parties, and everyone loves a good party, so

37:04

I can really see how parties would help

37:06

make John Hancock very popular. But it

37:08

doesn't seem like he really grew this popularity

37:11

on his own, because behind the scenes of

37:13

those giant parties would have been

37:15

his enslaved people who worked to make those parties

37:17

go off without a hitch and then cleaned up

37:19

after those parties. So Brooke, can

37:22

you tell us about Hancock's experiences

37:25

as an enslaver and whether

37:27

his experiences impacted his thoughts about

37:29

the revolution and its ideas of

37:31

equality and freedom, and whether

37:34

his experiences as an enslaver impacted

37:36

his leadership of the revolution at all? Hancock's

37:39

family benefited from slavery for decades,

37:41

economically and politically. I write this

37:44

in the book that when you

37:46

see a picture of Hancock, it's

37:48

typically by himself. It's this lone

37:50

man. But if you or I were to

37:52

be able to go back to 1774 in Boston and see Hancock,

37:57

we would be surprised that he would likely have

37:59

a black man. man right next to him. You

38:02

would rarely see Hancock without a

38:04

servant, whether paid later in his

38:06

life or enslaved earlier in his

38:08

life right next to him. So

38:11

his life depended on the

38:13

enslaved people that were bequeathed to him.

38:17

Uncle Thomas enslaved several men and

38:19

women, and when he died, that

38:21

property was bequeathed to Aunt Lydia.

38:24

And when she died in 1776, she emancipated some

38:26

of the enslaved people, but

38:30

not all. And then those

38:32

were bequeathed and passed down to John

38:34

Hancock. And by the end

38:36

of the 1770s, and unfortunately, we

38:38

don't know why. In other

38:40

words, we don't hear directly from Hancock,

38:42

but at that point, he enslaves no

38:44

men or women by the late 1770s.

38:46

So his family

38:49

had benefited for decades from

38:51

the institution of slavery. And

38:55

in his lifetime, Hancock

38:57

emancipates them. This is

38:59

likely for several reasons. Bottom

39:02

up emancipation, that is people

39:04

deciding that they were going

39:06

to free the people that

39:09

they enslaved, was starting to

39:11

trend in Massachusetts. So

39:14

we see Aunt Lydia doing this, for

39:16

example, where some of them were manumitted

39:18

in her will. And then

39:20

some, there was conditional terms of

39:22

their freedom. So you have to

39:24

serve for another year and you

39:26

have to be in good standing

39:28

in that year, and then you'll

39:30

be emancipated. So we start to

39:32

see the weakening of the institution

39:34

of slavery within the Hancock family

39:36

in the 1770s, and then

39:38

ending by the end of that decade. And

39:41

then when the Massachusetts Constitution is ratified in

39:43

1780, it says that all men are

39:47

created equal. And in

39:49

Massachusetts, where Hancock is the

39:51

first elected governor of Massachusetts, we

39:54

see further weakening of the institution

39:56

of slavery in the courts. Mumbet

39:59

and Quinton. Walker, both earn

40:01

their freedom. And so

40:04

Hancock is living in a place

40:07

that is seeing the weakening of

40:11

slavery. And like with

40:13

most things, I think he made

40:15

his decision based on what

40:17

other people were doing. Now, by

40:20

1774, John Hancock's leadership

40:22

role in the Boston Revolutionary Movement had

40:24

turned into a colony-wide leadership role in

40:27

the Massachusetts Provincial Congress. And

40:29

in May 1775,

40:32

John Hancock joined the Second Continental Congress

40:34

in Philadelphia, and that body

40:36

elected him as its president as well. So

40:39

Brooke, it seems clear that Hancock

40:41

was very popular in Massachusetts. But

40:44

all of the actions that Massachusetts took

40:46

to foment revolution, and by Massachusetts, I

40:48

mean really Boston, all of

40:50

the actions they took to foment revolution and

40:53

stand up to parliamentary taxation wasn't

40:55

always popular with the other 12

40:57

British North American colonies. So

41:00

how did John Hancock, who hailed from

41:03

what other colonies thought was a radical

41:05

colony, get elected as president

41:08

of the Second Continental Congress that

41:10

represented all of the colonies? Hancock

41:13

is chosen president of the Second

41:15

Continental Congress precisely because

41:17

he comes from

41:19

the radical colony of Massachusetts

41:22

and precisely because he's been

41:25

a moderate in that colony

41:27

of Massachusetts. So

41:29

those that were nervous about

41:32

the radicalism of Samuel Adams and

41:34

John Adams with good reason knew

41:37

that Hancock was different than

41:40

that. Part of that is

41:42

simply because they knew how wealthy he was. And

41:45

so he was unlikely to

41:47

act in a rash manner because

41:49

he had a lot of financial

41:52

interests to protect. Hancock

41:55

getting the job of president and

41:57

he took it essentially from Peyton

41:59

Randolph, a Virginia. Peyton

42:01

Randolph was president of the first Continental

42:03

Congress and then the second. And he

42:06

was called back to his home colony

42:08

to legislate there. And that's not unusual

42:10

that home colonies interests were seen as

42:13

more important than this Congress that some

42:15

of the men in the colonies were

42:17

taking part in. So

42:19

we go from having a president

42:21

from Virginia to the delegates looking

42:23

north for a new leader. And

42:26

Hancock being chosen president is

42:28

the single most important moment

42:31

of his life. And

42:33

it's what seals his legacy to Americans

42:35

today. He might pick a very

42:37

different moment as being the most important in his life.

42:40

But as a historian, that was

42:42

the moment, the seemingly small,

42:44

insignificant moment of Peyton Randolph

42:46

leaving and Hancock taking over

42:48

as president. That is what

42:50

seals his fame. Because

42:53

a year after it is only

42:55

the president that needs to authorize

42:57

the Declaration of Independence. And

42:59

that is Hancock. And Americans

43:02

today connect John Hancock and his

43:04

signature on the Declaration of Independence.

43:06

So much so that a synonym

43:08

for signature is John Hancock. And

43:10

that was only possible because he

43:12

became president. And what

43:14

was John Hancock like as a president

43:16

of the Second Continental Congress? Was

43:19

he as moderate as everyone had hoped that

43:21

he would be? Because he seems to have

43:23

had great success in Massachusetts. But we know

43:25

that not every politician could

43:27

translate their local and colony wide or

43:29

statewide success into national politics.

43:32

In fact, the same is true today. So

43:34

how would you rate John Hancock as

43:36

a national leader? And do you think

43:39

his success in Massachusetts followed him as

43:41

he led the Second Continental Congress? I

43:45

would say Hancock as a

43:47

leader was tireless. He worked

43:49

himself so much

43:51

with two sessions held twice a

43:53

day. He sat on committees as

43:56

president. He was also responsible for

43:58

a lot of correspondence. So he

44:00

would write to. General Washington, he

44:02

worked tirelessly. After serving

44:04

for nearly two and a half years, he said,

44:06

I'm exhausted and I have to leave. He

44:09

was proud of the efforts

44:12

that the Continental Army was making, the strides

44:14

they were making when he left. He

44:17

was proud that the Articles

44:19

of Confederation seemed near being

44:21

ratified. He considered that

44:23

one of his personal successes

44:25

for moderating those discussions. It

44:29

took its toll on him physically to

44:31

have to work so exhaustively. While

44:35

he ultimately leaves office,

44:38

he is without knowing this, he

44:40

is the longest serving president of

44:43

the Second Continental Congress. He

44:46

doesn't know it also, but when he

44:48

leaves as president, when he steps down,

44:50

that will be the highest national office

44:53

that he ever holds. Yeah,

44:55

as you mentioned, John Hancock served as president

44:57

of the Second Continental Congress from May 24,

44:59

1775 until October 31, 1777. He

45:06

also mentioned that Hancock's time in

45:08

Congress took a real physical and

45:10

probably even mental toll. Is

45:13

that why John Hancock resigned from Congress

45:15

to return to Massachusetts or

45:17

were there other factors involved in causing him

45:19

to resign? Part of it

45:21

is because he was sick. He said he

45:24

was so exhausted. But

45:26

another reason is his wife had

45:29

left Philadelphia to return home to

45:31

Boston. They had recently

45:33

lost their firstborn child, Lydia. Dolly,

45:37

his wife, didn't write back to

45:39

him. When Hancock begged for

45:41

letters and begged to hear how she

45:43

was doing, he didn't hear

45:45

back. I think he got very,

45:48

very homesick and was

45:50

despondent about losing his daughter, not

45:52

having his wife find any comfort

45:55

in him. While

45:57

he was in Philadelphia as president,

45:59

he went through three moves, the

46:01

location of the Congress moved three

46:03

different times. And I think he

46:05

was worn out and felt he

46:07

deserved a break. He

46:10

goes back to Congress shortly after

46:12

the break, but realizes I don't

46:14

want to do this if I'm

46:16

not president and returns

46:18

home again. So he

46:21

didn't know he'd be leaving Congress

46:23

forever. He didn't know that

46:25

he'd be stepping down from that national role,

46:28

but he knew that he needed

46:30

to tend to matters at home

46:32

and take a break. After

46:35

Congress, John Hancock became the first governor

46:37

of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and later

46:40

its third governor. But on October

46:42

8, 1793, John Hancock died at the age of 56. Brooke,

46:48

what do we know about the end of Hancock's

46:50

life? Do we know why he

46:52

died and why Boston threw him such a big

46:55

funeral? Hancock's death. There's

46:57

not much that we have in the

46:59

historical record about what we

47:01

know is that shortly before he

47:03

died, he wrote to Samuel Adams

47:05

that he wished for a healthy

47:07

mind in a healthy body. He

47:10

knew his body was failing him.

47:13

Why was it failing him? Well,

47:15

he'd been suffering from gout for

47:17

years. All of that

47:20

Madeira and the rich foods that he could

47:22

afford were taking a toll on his body,

47:25

so much so that very late

47:27

in his life, he often couldn't

47:29

walk on his own. He had

47:31

servants carrying him or he used

47:33

a wheelchair. He couldn't hold a

47:35

quill at certain points in his

47:37

life. So he was

47:39

ravaged by illness and

47:42

succumbs in October when he's 56

47:44

years old. That

47:46

is young to die. We

47:49

tend to think sometimes of the

47:51

life expectancy being very short for

47:53

colonists, but Samuel Adams lived

47:55

into his 80s and John Adams made

47:57

it to 90s. So it's

47:59

not as if. his contemporaries were dying

48:01

in their mid-50s. Boston

48:04

remembered Hancock with a massive funeral

48:06

that I think would have surely

48:08

delighted a man who loved detention.

48:11

And there was a procession through

48:14

Boston with Samuel Adams were there,

48:16

John Adams were there, professors from

48:18

Harvard, other lawmakers were there, and

48:22

they went by meaningful spots from

48:24

his life. And I

48:26

think he would have really appreciated the

48:28

thousands of people that lined the streets,

48:30

they shut down all the shops in

48:33

the afternoon so that people could attend

48:35

the funeral. And he

48:37

was buried in a mostly

48:39

unremarkable grave in the

48:41

Greenery Bearing Ground in downtown Boston. Today,

48:44

however, if you were to go to

48:47

the Greenery Bearing Ground, you see an

48:49

obelisk with Hancock's face engraved on the

48:51

top. And I think that

48:53

would delight him too, but that didn't

48:55

come around until another century after his

48:58

life when Massachusetts decided to honor their

49:00

first governor in that way. While

49:03

you were researching your book, King Hancock,

49:06

did you get a sense of how Hancock

49:08

was remembered at the time of his death

49:10

or how news of his death spread outside

49:12

of Massachusetts? Part of Hancock's

49:14

death was that it wouldn't have come as

49:16

a surprise to most people. In

49:18

1787, 1788, as the constitutional ratifying conventions were

49:24

taking place, there was some

49:27

talk that Hancock might be named vice president

49:29

or president of the new United States.

49:31

Should the constitution ratify, it would be

49:34

Hancock who would serve in one

49:36

of those two executive roles. And

49:38

he was even promised that by

49:40

Federalists in Massachusetts. And they went

49:43

back on that. And ultimately, no

49:45

one from Massachusetts voted for Hancock to be

49:48

vice president. And of course, it was John

49:50

Adams. But Liz, one of

49:52

the reasons people gave for not electing

49:54

John Hancock or not voting for him

49:56

rather is of how sick he was.

49:59

They said... We don't even know if

50:01

he could finish out a term. He

50:03

seems ready to go at any point.

50:06

And so I think that illness hurt

50:08

him politically. I know that it hurt

50:10

him in the later stages of his

50:12

life and would not have come as

50:14

a surprise to people. Brooke,

50:17

before we move into the time warp,

50:19

I'd really like for us to discuss

50:21

Hancock's legacy. So as we

50:23

just mentioned, he died at the age of 56. And

50:26

today we tend to remember John Hancock as

50:28

the man with the obelisk grave marker and

50:30

the granary-bearing ground in Boston. And

50:33

there are two buildings in Boston that

50:35

have borne the name Hancock Tower, two

50:37

skyscrapers, in fact, and there's even a

50:39

Hancock skyscraper in Chicago. So

50:42

John Hancock, for whatever reason, seems

50:44

to be a man that we

50:46

remember with skyscrapers. So would

50:48

you tell us why we have

50:50

Hancock skyscrapers and what

50:52

you think his biggest and most lasting

50:55

accomplishments actually were? How do

50:57

you think we should remember John Hancock? The

51:00

skyscrapers are named for the John

51:02

Hancock Financial Company. It was an

51:04

insurance company founded in the 19th

51:06

century. And their logo

51:08

was a stylized version of

51:10

the John Hancock signature. And

51:13

for a while, Liz, you know this,

51:15

that it was over the center field

51:17

scoreboard at Fenway Park as well. So

51:20

John Hancock's name became synonymous with

51:23

those buildings, even if the buildings,

51:25

I think both in Chicago and

51:27

Boston, they've been bought out, but

51:29

they're still known by locals as

51:31

the John Hancock Towers. So

51:34

they're named not for the man

51:36

that we've just been talking about,

51:38

but for a financial company that

51:40

was named for the man we've

51:42

been talking about. And

51:44

I write in the book that I think

51:46

Hancock, he would see this as a fair

51:48

trade, that if he was

51:51

remembered for nothing else, but tall

51:53

buildings and an elegant, bold signature,

51:56

he would take that trade off because there

51:58

are many men who... spoiled

52:00

through these years and don't

52:02

have the same popular memory

52:05

among Americans. What

52:07

I hope readers of the book and

52:09

listeners of this episode take is that

52:12

Hancock's signature on the Declaration of

52:14

Independence, it was bold and audacious,

52:17

but his politics were much less

52:19

so. And he really

52:21

serves as an example, as we

52:23

talked about, about the uncertainty of

52:26

the American Revolution. So

52:28

while I would love to be able to

52:30

make it black or white, that he

52:32

should be known for this, what I'd like

52:34

him to be known for, in some ways,

52:37

is someone who was so very human

52:39

during a very tumultuous time, who

52:41

sought out what was best for him and

52:44

what was best for the people that

52:46

he led. We should move

52:48

into the time warp. This is a

52:50

fun segment of the show where we ask

52:52

you a hypothetical history question about what might

52:55

have happened if something had occurred differently or

52:57

if someone had acted differently. So

53:20

Brooke, we really have to know.

53:22

In your opinion, would we still remember

53:24

John Hancock today if his signature on

53:26

the Declaration of Independence had either not

53:28

been on the document or not as

53:30

large as it really is? Definitely

53:34

not. Him signing

53:36

the Declaration of Independence, him authorizing it,

53:39

sealed his fame even at that

53:41

time. Elbridge Gary, who

53:43

was no friend of Hancock's, a fellow

53:45

Massachusetts politician, he was critical of Hancock

53:47

all of the time. But he said

53:50

that if Hancock supported the U.S. Constitution

53:52

at the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, that that

53:54

would seal his fame because he also

53:57

had his name tied to the Declaration

53:59

of Independence. Declaration of Independence. So

54:02

even in his lifetime, contemporaries

54:04

knew the significance of his

54:06

name authorizing the Declaration of

54:09

Independence. What we often don't

54:11

think about, it's not

54:13

until 1818 that Americans first

54:15

see the signature of John

54:17

Hancock on the Declaration of

54:19

Independence. There was only one

54:22

original copy with everyone's signatures on it,

54:24

and there wasn't a copy of that

54:26

made for the public until 1818. What

54:28

they'd seen before was

54:31

just the typeset name, the

54:34

typeset Declaration of Independence with all of

54:36

the words printed, and then at the

54:38

bottom it says John Hancock President. And

54:41

then once people began seeing his

54:43

actual signature and those of others,

54:46

his fame really grows because people

54:48

were so attracted to the signature.

54:51

And that's when we begin to

54:53

get that myth about him signing

54:55

so big so that George III

54:57

can see it. That's when his

55:00

popularity continues to rise. So it's

55:03

for that signature that he

55:05

is remembered broadly by Americans

55:07

today. Otherwise, he would

55:09

be confined to being remembered by

55:12

specialists. Now, a lot

55:14

of historians are led to their next research

55:16

projects because of the research they just conducted

55:18

and just wrote up. So I

55:20

wonder, is your next project involving John Hancock

55:22

at all, or has John Hancock pointed you

55:25

to a new project? Somewhat.

55:27

Boston history is my biggest interest,

55:29

Boston's revolutionary history. And so for

55:31

my next project, I'm zooming way

55:33

out, which is different for me,

55:35

and looking more at the American

55:37

Revolution as a whole. John

55:40

Hancock, of course, will be a

55:42

part of that, but looking at

55:44

others not like him. So native

55:47

peoples and black women and men,

55:49

as well as the people like

55:51

Hancock. So I'm excited to step

55:53

away from Boston history and look

55:55

nationally, but Boston's history

55:58

is just my ultimate favorite. When

56:00

not writing, Brooke also runs a company

56:03

called Yield Tavern Tours. When

56:05

people visit Boston, they have a lot

56:07

of different tour options. Boston by Foot, for

56:09

example, offers architectural tours. There are also chocolate

56:11

and food tours. Brooke, you

56:14

focus on tavern tours. So would you tell us

56:16

about the tours you offer and how we might

56:18

be able to take one of your tours? We

56:21

would love to see Ben Franklin's world

56:23

listeners on our tour. They're a lot

56:25

of fun because we walk along the

56:27

Freedom Trail in Boston, which is a

56:30

red brick trail that links up several historic sites

56:32

from the 17th, 18th, and 19th century. We

56:36

see historic sites, including the site

56:38

of the Boston Massacre and

56:40

the grave of John Hancock. But we

56:43

also stop in three historic taverns along

56:45

the way to have a beer or

56:47

cider. We didn't really get

56:50

into this today, but taverns were essential

56:52

to the social and cultural fabric of

56:54

18th century life, especially

56:56

in Boston. Hancock spent so

56:59

much time in taverns. This

57:01

is also where he built influence. So

57:03

you're being historic and revolutionary by coming

57:05

into a tavern with us. And

57:07

we talk about the role that alcohol played

57:09

in Boston's history and the American Revolution. It's

57:12

a lot of fun. Do you

57:14

stop where the molasses flood happened in the 19th

57:16

century in the North End? We

57:18

don't go that far. We

57:21

see some quirky aspects of Boston's

57:23

history that you might miss otherwise.

57:26

Okay, I just needed to know how far your

57:28

alcohol tours of Boston go. Brooke,

57:31

if we have more questions about John Hancock in

57:33

Boston during the American Revolution, where's

57:35

the best place for us to reach you? I

57:38

have a website, brook-barbier,

57:41

and someone could submit a question there.

57:44

And we'd love to see you on a tour

57:46

also. And that's

57:49

at yeoldtavrentours.com. And

57:51

I really just want to thank the

57:53

listeners for their interest in John Hancock. And

57:55

Liz, it's such a thrill that I

57:57

got to speak with you today. Well,

57:59

Brooke, Mark Barbier, thank you so much for

58:02

joining us and for taking us through John

58:04

Hancock's life, his many accomplishments, and

58:06

for showing us what John Hancock was

58:08

like as a real human being. Thank

58:10

you. I've loved it. It's

58:12

easy for us to think that all

58:15

of the United States' founding fathers were

58:17

steadfast and enthusiastic revolutionaries right from the

58:19

start of the American Revolution. But

58:22

our conversation with Brooke revealed that many founding

58:24

fathers and mothers had to work

58:26

their way to a revolutionary position. The

58:29

reality of British North America in the

58:31

early to mid-1760s was that early Americans

58:33

were prospering as Britons and as members

58:35

of the British Empire. Great

58:37

Britain was fresh off a major victory in the Seven

58:39

Years' War, which put a lot of money into the

58:42

pockets of early Americans. Now sure,

58:44

merchants like Thomas Hancock made a fortune

58:46

by supplying military units in North America,

58:49

but everyday farmers and tradesmen also

58:51

did well generally speaking. It

58:53

really wasn't until the mid to late

58:55

1760s that early Americans started to see

58:58

the economic depression or recession that came

59:00

from switching a wartime economy to a

59:02

peacetime economy. And even then, this economic

59:05

downturn tended to hit cities harder than

59:07

those in the countryside. It

59:09

was within this deteriorating urban economic

59:11

situation that Great Britain started to

59:13

pass taxation measures to pay for

59:15

its soldiers that it was stationing

59:17

in outposts at Pittsburgh, Detroit, Montreal,

59:19

Quebec, and St. Augustine all to protect

59:22

the new territories that the Empire

59:24

had won during the Seven Years'

59:26

War. While men of wealth

59:28

like John Hancock should have been able to weather

59:30

these taxes, but everyday men who

59:32

relied on stamp goods could not afford

59:34

these new taxes. Plus, there

59:36

were these learned men in history

59:38

and law that argued that Americans

59:40

shouldn't accept these new taxes because

59:42

they weren't truly represented in Parliament.

59:45

But John Hancock wasn't really one of those

59:47

men. Sure, he was an

59:49

educated man thanks to his Uncle Thomas, but

59:52

he was primarily a traitor and his

59:54

business really flourished within the British Empire.

59:57

So as Brooke showed us, John Hancock

59:59

was l... less than enthusiastic about the

1:00:01

American Revolution in its very early days.

1:00:04

Brooke also helped us see that John

1:00:06

Hancock always had an on-again, off-again relationship

1:00:08

with the American Revolution and that most

1:00:11

of his decisions about the movement were

1:00:13

influenced by his checkbook. It

1:00:15

was only in the aftermath of a Boston Tea

1:00:17

Party during the coercive acts in 1774 that John

1:00:21

Hancock finally decided to become a

1:00:23

revolutionary and a revolutionary leader. Now

1:00:26

as a leader, John Hancock seems to have

1:00:28

worked tirelessly. Having on any

1:00:30

of the Congresses held in the Revolutionary America

1:00:32

was no joke. Congressman

1:00:34

worked really long hours, they served on many committees,

1:00:36

and it often fell to a handful of the

1:00:39

people on those committees to get the real work

1:00:41

done. Now as president

1:00:43

of the Second Continental Congress, John

1:00:45

Hancock had to read and correspond

1:00:47

to all the committee reports, plus

1:00:49

the reports, needs, and letters of

1:00:51

the individual colonies turned states, the

1:00:54

Continental Army, traitors and representatives abroad,

1:00:56

and everyday Americans who petitioned for

1:00:58

help. The amount of work

1:01:00

that John Hancock handled for two and a half

1:01:02

years broke his health, and it led

1:01:04

to his early death at 56. Now

1:01:07

a bright spot in Hancock's work is

1:01:09

that he had the sole responsibility of

1:01:11

authorizing the Declaration of Independence. He

1:01:14

had to authorize the Declaration so that

1:01:16

men like John Dunlap and women like

1:01:18

Mary Catherine Goddard of Baltimore or Clementine

1:01:21

Orion of Williamsburg could print and share

1:01:23

the Declaration of Independence with the American

1:01:25

people and with foreign nations. So

1:01:28

John Hancock boldly signed the Declaration

1:01:30

of Independence, and with his signature,

1:01:32

Hancock wrote himself into United States

1:01:34

history and into our historical memories

1:01:36

of the American Revolution and our

1:01:39

nation's independence. Look

1:01:41

for more information about Brooke, her book,

1:01:43

King Hancock, plus notes, links, and a

1:01:45

transcript for everything we talked about today,

1:01:47

all on the show notes page. benfranklinsworld.com/three

1:01:51

eight eight.

1:01:54

Let's tell friends about their favorite podcasts. So

1:01:57

please tell your friends and family about Ben

1:01:59

Franklin's world. Seriously, telling others is the best

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1:02:05

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my colleagues at Colonial Williamsburg Innovation

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This podcast is part of the Airwave

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and listen to their other podcasts, visit

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airwavemedia.com. Finally,

1:02:26

what other stories of independence, the Fourth of

1:02:28

July, or the Declaration of Independence would you

1:02:30

like to explore? Let me know, liz

1:02:33

at benfranklinsworld.com. Ben

1:02:36

Franklin's World is a production of

1:02:38

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