0:05

Welcome to Big Questions.

0:07

This is Cal Pussman.

0:10

Imagine what it was like for me

0:13

to open a book and find out

0:15

there is a 7.8 trillion dollar

0:21

problem that I could

0:23

help solve. It was like stepping

0:25

into a Thrivex cold plunge. Whoa!

0:29

Let me take this further. Imagine

0:31

I reach out to the author

0:33

of the book that defined the

0:35

problem to get him on the

0:37

podcast and I find out that

0:39

this problem, a problem I can

0:42

help solve, isn't really

0:44

a 7.8 trillion

0:46

dollar problem. Oh

0:49

no, that was last year's number.

0:52

This year, it's grown into

0:54

an 8.8 trillion

0:56

dollar problem. It

0:58

feels a little crazy to get excited

1:00

about a problem. I mean, not like

1:02

I'm rooting for it, but how

1:05

else would you feel if you

1:07

found out that you can be so

1:09

useful? Funny to hear

1:11

myself say those two words, be

1:14

useful. It's the title

1:17

of Arnold Schwarzenegger's new book. Arnold's

1:20

a little older than I am, but the

1:22

theme of his book is not

1:24

about looking at his life through

1:26

the successes in bodybuilding or a

1:29

famous catchphrase like, I'll be back.

1:31

In one of his movies, he's

1:34

passing on the tools that he learned

1:36

throughout his life so that

1:38

people can use them and make the world a

1:40

better place. And now

1:42

that I've found out about this 8.8 trillion

1:45

dollar problem, that's

1:49

what I'm going to be doing. I

1:54

Never dreamed I'd be doing it over decades

1:56

that I'd interviewed the icons who shaped the

1:58

last 75. That year,

2:01

the world history. but

2:03

the elite interviewing skills

2:05

I learned in conversation

2:07

with presidents to Ahmed

2:09

Ali and Jeff Bezos

2:11

and Richard Branson Serene

2:13

or Williams are perfectly

2:15

suited to help solve

2:17

a major problem in

2:19

everybody's workplace. His. Seat Gallup

2:21

is estimated that sixty percent

2:24

of workers are emotionally detached

2:26

on the job. And

2:29

when all that is add up it

2:31

turns into an eight point eight. trillion.

2:35

Dollar loss and productivity. There are

2:37

many reasons for this if he

2:39

asked anyone who is worse boss

2:41

you ever and or what's the

2:44

worst, higher you ever main. And

2:46

pretty sure you dear lotta

2:49

crazy stories, but a lot

2:51

of the disengagement problem exists

2:53

simply because people are working

2:56

in places or positions where.

2:58

They. Are not the

3:00

right sit? As

3:02

why my eyebrows hit that top

3:05

of my forehead when I began

3:07

to read Dr. Andre Martin's But.

3:10

Wrong. Fit right Said. Why?

3:12

How we work. Matters. More

3:15

than ever. It explains what

3:17

happens. And. People except jobs

3:19

and companies said don't work the

3:21

way they do. On

3:23

when companies hired people who. Don't

3:26

blend into their style. The. Fritz

3:28

in this causes makes everyone uncomfortable

3:31

and in this day and age

3:33

as soon as people in wrong

3:35

but jobs figure it out. As.

3:37

Sending out new applications could

3:40

be willing Forty five days.

3:42

And the company has to go

3:45

through the recruiting process again and

3:47

the on boarding process again and

3:49

saw just a waste of everybody's

3:52

time and money. And. A

3:54

lot of companies. Managers. doing

3:56

hiring interviews don't even like

3:58

to interview biceps could make

4:00

them see the process in

4:02

a different way. When I

4:05

interviewed and wrote about the people we

4:07

all dreamed we could meet for Esquire

4:09

magazine, one of

4:11

the frequent responses from readers

4:14

was, oh, that's who

4:16

they really are. What

4:18

if companies could know exactly who

4:20

the candidates are and how

4:22

they'd fit in before they hired

4:24

them? And what if

4:27

people could ask questions that

4:29

allow them to find out what it'd be

4:31

like to work at a company before

4:33

they accepted a job that

4:36

brought them a lot of

4:38

anxiety. My heart, head,

4:40

and soul style of interviewing could

4:43

lead to a lot more right

4:45

fits. And that would make a

4:47

lot of people happy and more

4:50

productive. So I'm going

4:52

to pass on my interviewing skills so

4:54

that people and companies can

4:56

find the right fits. Let

4:59

me say thanks to Dr. Andre

5:01

Morton for researching and writing his

5:03

book, Wrong Fit, Right Fit. His

5:06

understanding of this problem as

5:09

an organizational psychologist and talent

5:11

management executive, working

5:14

with Disney, Nike, Target,

5:16

and Google has

5:18

in a very short time impacted

5:21

my life. Check out the book,

5:24

Wrong Fit, Right Fit for

5:26

Yourself. And

5:28

let me thank Dr. Martin for

5:30

the enlightening conversation you're about to

5:32

hear because you're going to understand

5:35

how the problem started and grew

5:37

and get some remedies for it. You

5:40

can reach out to me

5:42

at calpussman.com if you feel

5:44

elite interviewing skills could

5:46

be helpful in your journey or

5:49

for your company. I'm

5:51

here to help. So

5:54

let's get straight to Dr.

5:56

Andre Martin So

5:58

we can have a- Lot more.

6:01

Right sets. Where.

6:12

Did you come up with the

6:14

idea of asking people to pick

6:16

up a pen and write a

6:18

sentence with both their dominant hand?

6:21

And. They're not dominant hand.

6:24

To. Show them the difference that

6:26

they might feel and accompanied when

6:28

they were a good fit and

6:30

when they were not a good

6:33

fit. The actual So

6:35

I mode or is a So psychologist

6:37

by training and I did a lot

6:39

of work of my career in self

6:41

awareness and using psychological assessment to help

6:43

people get their preferences right. And we

6:45

know that preferences are simply. The.

6:47

Style that if everything was being equal. if

6:50

we lived on a deserted island by ourselves

6:52

that's how we would live in the world

6:54

and so one of the things we to

6:56

do and in those classes with executives has

6:58

have them crossed their arms one way and

7:00

then. Crossed. Their arms the other way. Ss.

7:07

And so and so. Were

7:09

the metaphor came from was me

7:11

try to take that visceral experience.

7:15

And use something that you could do in

7:17

a book. And so I've

7:19

always loved the sentence. you know, because

7:21

it has every letter in the in

7:23

the English alphabet in it in that

7:25

sentence. And so I thought, using that

7:27

nasty people are right with their non

7:29

dominant hand felt like a really good

7:31

metaphor. The was reinforced with. A.

7:33

Lot of the comments of people made about what it

7:35

feels like to be Enron fit. For. That

7:38

sentences the quick brown fox

7:40

jumps over the lazy dog

7:42

and I was wondering why

7:44

is that sentence button Now

7:46

I understand. Now you know

7:48

now. Help me here. What

7:50

is the difference between somebody who

7:53

wants to cross their arms. With.

7:55

Their right arm. On. top

7:57

as opposed to the left It's

8:00

just that we have a different set of

8:02

preferences and how we like to live call

8:05

and that can be both around

8:07

how we cross our arms how we cross our

8:09

legs to how we show up. In

8:12

learning environment how we like to learn to really

8:14

what books about which is how we like to

8:16

work and so basically

8:18

the ideas through both how

8:21

we were born. And also through

8:23

the environment we grew up in we

8:25

form these preferences about what feels natural to us in

8:27

the way that we live our lives. End

8:29

the point is to try

8:31

to find a place that

8:34

is going to feel the most natural

8:36

to us because we're

8:38

gonna be able to get the best out of ourselves. Yeah

8:41

think about it this way so when you talk

8:43

about right fit or wrong fit at work. I'm

8:46

not talking about the values the company holds or

8:48

the products that they create it's really about hey

8:50

how is this going to feel like to work.

8:53

On a random Monday morning when you

8:55

walk in through that door or video

8:58

in January right so how is the

9:00

company solve problems set

9:03

strategy collaborate manage conflict how

9:05

they kick off team meetings.

9:07

How do they think about time how do

9:10

they give feedback develop their people how do

9:12

they socialize these are all the things that

9:14

she make up work. End the

9:17

more places where those things are inside

9:19

our preferences inside how we like to

9:21

work just the easier work

9:23

is and then therefore the more

9:26

productive more innovative more creative we

9:28

can be. Do these

9:30

things generally not come

9:32

up in detail during job

9:34

interviews where focus is

9:37

on the skills that would

9:39

be necessary or

9:41

the intelligence intellect that would

9:43

be necessary to take on

9:46

a job that you might need

9:48

to be trained for. Or

9:50

the company culture do we

9:52

lose this bedrock

9:56

need that that we have

9:58

to simply. be

10:00

around people that make

10:02

us feel comfortable to get the best

10:04

out of ourselves. Yeah, Cal,

10:07

I think it comes down to a couple things. The first

10:09

one is, back in the 90s with the

10:11

rise of all the tech companies, something

10:13

really interesting happened in recruiting and

10:15

hiring, in that we started

10:18

to create these really big culture decks

10:20

and career websites. And we started to

10:22

say, we're the best company to work

10:24

out on earth. And

10:26

so recruiting became marketing as much

10:29

as it did become about finding

10:31

fit. So that's one thing that

10:33

happened is that we started to treat our companies as

10:35

brands in order to get the best talent to come.

10:38

We started to talk pretty aspirationally about

10:40

how we work. I think

10:42

the second thing that's happened is, if you

10:44

think about a job interview, at least the

10:46

ones I've had, they're much more like first

10:49

dates than anything else. So

10:51

what do I mean by that? Companies show

10:53

up with their most polished resumes

10:56

with pre-rehearsed answers to every

10:59

question. They're dressed in their... They're dressed

11:01

in the teas in their best outfits. And

11:04

then companies show up with

11:06

their most aspirational versions of themselves.

11:08

Here's our best leaders. Here's your manager

11:10

on their best day. Here's us

11:13

at our best with all our

11:15

bells and whistles. And

11:17

we know, Cal, I mean, all the first

11:19

dates we've both been on, we know that

11:21

very few of those first dates

11:24

result in long-term committed

11:26

relationships. And so I guess for

11:28

me, what I'm seeing in the World Right House that, hey,

11:30

we actually have more information

11:33

on which toaster revenue we want to

11:35

buy than we do about the companies

11:37

that we join. And that's troubling to

11:39

me because we will spend 13.5 years of our lives,

11:41

our adult lives, at

11:46

work, every second, every minute, every

11:48

moment. And it's second only to sleep. So

11:51

that choice really matters to the quality

11:53

of our life. And

11:56

it matters to the company too, because

11:58

if they're bringing in somebody who... who

12:00

looks super talented, looks

12:03

like a rock star, but

12:05

doesn't really feel comfortable when

12:08

they get into the place where they

12:10

gotta work. Well, what's the point?

12:13

That's right, you just lose all their productivity. And here, if

12:15

you think about the psychology, but I think you'll love this

12:17

Cal, one of the things I always tell

12:19

people is that your creative

12:21

energy, it's always flowing. Whether

12:24

you're in a right fit or

12:26

wrong fit experience, your creative energy,

12:28

that juice is always flowing. In

12:30

wrong fit experiences, it's

12:32

flowing to the wrong things.

12:35

It's flowing to managing negative emotions.

12:38

It's flowing to creating coping mechanisms

12:41

and narratives. It's flowing to

12:43

stress and disappointment,

12:46

instead of it flowing to your craft. And

12:48

so the thing is, is like, we're just

12:50

misusing all our creative energy because we're in

12:53

a place that we're constantly having to try

12:55

to find the secret decoder ring of success.

12:57

And that's just exhausting. And it just

12:59

wastes all that energy, which we

13:02

know results in what Gallup tells us about

13:04

productivity in the workplace. 8.8

13:06

trillion dollars of lost productivity as

13:08

of this year's report. Wow,

13:10

so in the book I thought I read it was 7.8, it went

13:12

up. It

13:14

went up, it went up, unfortunately. Yeah,

13:17

it was 8.8 in the recent report. And

13:19

that's estimated lost productivity

13:21

due to disengagement. How

13:23

should both sides of

13:26

the interview be going

13:28

into the interview in order

13:30

to get the most out of it? And

13:34

in order to see, you know what?

13:36

This is not gonna be the right fit for me. It

13:39

sounds like a great job. It sounds

13:41

like the money's there. But the

13:43

reality is, is that six months from

13:45

now, I'm not gonna feel

13:47

good. I'm gonna feel like my arms are

13:49

crossed in all the wrong ways. And

13:52

we're gonna need some rewiring to

13:54

get back to a good place. What

13:57

can both the company and...

14:00

the individual will do in that interview

14:02

to ensure or

14:05

give themselves the best chance of

14:08

it being the right fit? So

14:10

Cal, I love the question. And in the book, we

14:13

actually asked that same question to about 110 sort

14:15

of interviewees from

14:18

a variety of walks of life, from CEOs all

14:20

the way down to first jobs. And

14:23

I'll start with the individual who's interviewing, right?

14:26

And then time and time again, when I

14:28

talked to people about their wrong fit experience,

14:31

they said two things that stood out to me. The

14:33

first one was when I asked them, when did you know,

14:35

like, if you're being honest, when did you actually know this

14:38

was going to be a wrong fit or wasn't going

14:40

to be a place where you felt like you're riding with

14:42

your dominant hand? And in every case,

14:44

Cal, I tell you what, they would pause, they

14:46

kind of chuckled to themselves. And

14:48

then they'd say, you know what, if I'm being honest, I

14:50

knew it during the interview. I

14:53

knew it. And I

14:55

wanted the job so bad that

14:57

I just ignored those things, put

15:00

them to the side and focused on the information that

15:02

helped me confirm the decision I wanted to make. Because

15:05

three things, I said it was either a better

15:07

title, it was better pay, both of

15:09

those things we know don't correlate to job

15:12

satisfaction long term. Or the

15:14

last one was really interesting. They said, I

15:16

just, it felt really good to be

15:18

wanted. Right? And

15:20

so and so that was one piece that stood out for me. I

15:22

think the second thing that they said that was really important is when

15:25

I asked them, what would you do differently tomorrow?

15:27

They said, I would have done a ton

15:29

more reflection before I ever opened

15:32

up a job advertisement. And that's why in

15:34

the book, we put in an entire chapter

15:36

on these things called excursions, right?

15:39

Asking talent to say before you open a

15:41

job ad, realize that the moment you do

15:43

that, you're in a big marketing machine. Everyone's

15:46

on their first date, you're going to get less

15:48

valid information, you're going to make a decision with

15:50

a lot of, you know, sort of bells and

15:52

whistles and shiny things surrounding you, do the hard

15:54

work to get really clear about what you're solving for. And

15:57

so that's like the talent, I would say that's the You

16:00

think you can do realize. Pay.

16:02

Attention to what you're hearing in the interview.

16:04

Triangulated. Make sure your pain it's install, information

16:06

settling. Do a ton of self reflection before

16:08

you get in that process. When.

16:11

You say self reflection? It's

16:13

almost to me and it's

16:15

like saying. Reboot: You

16:18

curiosity? Be curious about yourself right

16:20

now. Ask yourself questions that are

16:22

gonna make you see yourself in

16:24

a new way. You're Not the

16:26

person you were A year ago. Two years

16:28

ago. Five years ago. You're in

16:31

a unique situation right now. Who.

16:33

Are you. Absolutely cows. Who

16:35

are you in? what are you solving for

16:37

Rights to some of that excursions The bottom

16:39

and we talk about this idea of hey

16:41

what values you actually holding Big decisions not

16:43

the values you tell people you have that

16:45

the ones that sleep drive you towards decisions

16:48

you make what's the life you want the

16:50

next five ten years. right? Who's

16:52

your ideal leader? How do you like

16:54

to work? And one of the

16:56

big ones is what matters most right now. Sometimes.

16:59

A job is about you fourteen your career

17:01

and sometimes it's just be be a job.

17:03

I got two kids in college right now.

17:05

I just new job. Placements in the

17:07

and like I I have other things that

17:09

are sorted driving me and so I think

17:11

that's a really important pieces is get to

17:13

know yourself. Know what you're solving for and

17:16

then when you get in front of companies. You'll.

17:18

Be able to be much clearer about whether or not

17:20

this is gonna help you. Get. The

17:22

answers you're looking for and have experienced

17:24

the you want I think from the

17:27

from the company side. The. Thing I'd

17:29

sell companies some like a two things you can

17:31

do. right? Now that will

17:33

make a big difference. One is get

17:35

really clear. About how the

17:37

company works, At. It's best. right?

17:40

So companies grow. The thing we know, cows. We

17:42

hire a lot of people. right? And

17:44

if you and I were running something, the had ten people

17:46

in it right now. And we hired

17:48

ten more people this year. They're.

17:50

Not only bring in their technical skill. They're.

17:53

Bringing all their favorite ways of working,

17:55

and if we're not really careful about

17:58

solidifying how this company works it's best,

18:01

we lose ourselves over time. This is the reason this

18:03

company's growth. People say, oh my God, the bigger the

18:05

company, the slower the work happens. A

18:07

large reason why that is is because companies

18:09

aren't really good at solidifying

18:13

and rerecruiting people back to the way that

18:15

they work, how they solve problems, give feedback,

18:17

develop people, kick off teams, hold meetings, all

18:19

those things. The second thing I

18:22

want companies to do is I want them

18:24

to create realistic job previews. So

18:26

a realistic job preview is simply saying, hey,

18:28

instead of talking about all the responsibilities, education,

18:31

blah, blah, blah stuff that's in job descriptions,

18:33

what if you did this? What if you

18:35

said, hey, the first thing we're gonna tell

18:38

you is how we work. Here's

18:40

how we collaborate, here's how we solve problems, here's

18:42

how we think about time, here's how we think

18:44

about rest and recovery, here's how we give feedback,

18:46

develop you, here's the way we work.

18:49

Is this your kind of crazy? If

18:51

so, here's the capabilities we're

18:53

looking for. We need a

18:55

great head of HR, a great communicator,

18:57

great whatever, do you have those capabilities?

19:01

And if so, here's the three things

19:04

that we need you to solve or the three

19:06

problems we need you to take on. Are those

19:08

interesting and in your wheelhouse? And

19:10

if people created job descriptions like that,

19:13

imagine how different that conversation is. And

19:17

getting back to what you were saying before, the

19:20

first thing you're gonna focus on is the title,

19:22

or maybe the first thing you're gonna focus on is

19:25

the money. And this

19:27

is a very different consideration.

19:30

Yeah, and the reason is Cal is because hey, the

19:32

truth is, is every job I've ever taken, everything

19:35

that they showed me in the job description, the 35 bullets

19:37

of all the things I'm gonna do, those

19:40

were probably pulled off a website somewhere. And

19:44

they tell me, here's all the things I could

19:46

do if I kept this job for 25 years. But

19:49

the truth of that job is, for the next

19:51

18 months, I'm only doing these two things, Right?

19:54

Because That's all they have budget money for, that's all

19:56

that's really interesting, that's all that they need. And Then

19:58

here's the other seven things that we did. Tell

20:00

you. That. You're going to have to

20:02

do on top of these responsibilities. And like, If.

20:04

We were just little bit more honest about

20:06

that. I could make a better decision because

20:09

when people join a company, And. They

20:11

leave within ninety days. About a third of us

20:13

do that. They. Cite three things

20:15

as being the reasons they leave. They

20:17

say. No. Clear path for

20:20

professional development. No. Clear career

20:22

progression opportunities that is. The job just feels

20:24

like I'm to be stuff I'm a job

20:26

forever and the last one which was the

20:29

biggest with a mismatch and expectations. What?

20:31

You told me I was gonna be doing

20:33

during the interview process. Didn't. Come to

20:35

life when I got the job day to day. And

20:37

that's is Sat right. I mean that's is that

20:39

solvable. As a sort of May,

20:42

so I heard you correctly. So one

20:44

out of three people. Who. Gets

20:46

hired, Is leaving.

20:49

Have. Left a job within ninety days. So one

20:51

out of three of us. Have at

20:53

some point are career joined the

20:55

company of and less within ninety

20:58

days. And I guess

21:00

that is the other for

21:02

ten to. Ayers slow and

21:04

fire quick. That's right, People

21:07

are recognizing know this is not when

21:09

I like. I don't like working with

21:11

this person. I don't want to be

21:13

around that person so I'm better. get

21:15

get outta here and get to something

21:18

that I want to do. A avid

21:20

I'm in here and stories of people

21:22

who get hired and within the first

21:24

month or two. Are sending

21:26

out like applications for new

21:29

jobs. Maybe. I'm a

21:31

little old school in favor of

21:33

sounded a little crazy to me.

21:36

There's gotta be a certain amount

21:38

of time to just adjust and.

21:41

See. What you're. Capable

21:43

of can you really understand? And

21:45

and sixty days that's not enough

21:48

for me. I'm out here. Or

21:50

Calif think two things are happening the right?

21:53

The first one is we live in a

21:55

much different world where with the onslaught a

21:57

social media. i'm getting hit in the

21:59

head with greener grass every single day. I could

22:02

go out, I'm happy in my job, I love

22:04

my job. I'm really lucky. But

22:06

I could go out there today and

22:09

in about 15 minutes, find

22:11

seven examples of people on TikTok or Instagram or

22:13

LinkedIn that look like they have a much better

22:15

life than I do in my

22:17

same field. And so I think we're a little

22:20

bit more impatient because we feel like we have

22:22

all these examples of people that have a better

22:24

life than we do. And that causes us to

22:27

live in this constant state of FOMO. I

22:29

think the second thing that's happening here is that,

22:32

you know, it's 52% of the

22:34

people who are at a job for six

22:36

months are still looking for a new job.

22:39

I think it's because of that mismatch in

22:41

expectations. So MIT did this really

22:43

interesting piece of research where they looked at

22:46

the espoused values of a company. When

22:48

leaders stand up and talk about their

22:50

company, what values do they talk about?

22:53

And in what order of priority or

22:55

importance? And then they compared those

22:57

lists to the way that

22:59

employees talk about the company's felt experience

23:01

on career review sites, right? So

23:03

you would hope that those two things are the same. The

23:05

way that leaders talk about the company is

23:07

sort of very much the experience that people

23:09

have. What MIT found is that

23:12

there's zero correlation, zero correlation

23:14

between the most espoused values of the

23:16

companies they looked at and the felt

23:18

experience of the employees. And so I

23:20

think what's contributing to people continually looking

23:23

for jobs is that they

23:25

get recruited, get this promise of what

23:27

their life's gonna be like. They get

23:29

into the job and very quickly they

23:31

realize what was promised isn't true. And

23:34

so they start sort of activating

23:36

their plan B, which is

23:38

if this doesn't get better, I don't wanna be

23:41

stuck without a job because

23:43

the third thing that's happening is

23:45

people are no longer willing to

23:47

live to work. They wanna

23:49

work to live. And so they're

23:52

putting that plan B in action all

23:54

the time. So they always have an

23:56

option. They always have an out

23:58

clause. And I think. companies could

24:00

do a better job, I still believe the 20-year career

24:02

is a possibility. We're just going to have to be

24:04

more honest about the experience we can create for people

24:07

and be willing to flex and move to meet them

24:09

where they are. Our companies

24:11

are scared to

24:14

reveal exactly what

24:16

this job is going to be because they

24:19

feel, well, how are we going

24:21

to compete with other companies that

24:24

are putting out job descriptions that

24:27

are not exactly

24:29

what they're saying they are. This

24:32

is the thing is we got

24:35

into this marketing mentality around jobs.

24:38

And so we're sort of in this race

24:40

to make ourselves look as best

24:42

we can. But here's the mystery to me, Cal, here's

24:44

why I just do not understand is

24:47

if that individual takes that job, they're

24:49

going to find out anyway. And

24:52

so I look at that and I'm like,

24:54

if I sort of take the position of the person who's

24:56

taking the job and I say, hey, the day before they

24:58

come to your company, imagine if

25:00

they're sitting at a table with their best friends,

25:02

their partner, their mom and their dad, they

25:05

are over the moon excited about coming to work

25:07

for you. And then on day

25:09

one, they walk and they find out 50% of

25:12

what you told them was a lie. You

25:15

literally just took this person who could be

25:18

the most highly engaged employee you have doing

25:20

the best work of their life. And

25:23

you just drop their engagement to the bottom where

25:25

they start losing trust, they start losing belief, they

25:27

start to wonder if everything is going to be

25:29

like this. And so then all you're doing is

25:32

trying to regain engagement that

25:34

you could have happened beginning if you

25:36

would have been honest in the recruiting

25:38

process. It really sounds crazy. Because

25:40

what's the point of doing

25:42

that if you're going to

25:44

bring in somebody who four

25:47

or five months later is just going to leave

25:49

and then you're going through the whole thing all

25:51

over again? Why not really

25:53

find exactly what you're looking for

25:55

and make it work and you're

25:57

not piling up all the time?

26:00

costs that come with

26:02

more recruiting, more onboarding.

26:04

It just seems

26:07

like now I know why 8.8 trillion is

26:09

8.8 trillion. Yeah,

26:12

I do too, Cal. And it's one of

26:14

those things where I think it's just another

26:16

story of where we're willing to trade off

26:18

long-term costs for short-term

26:20

KPIs. When you think about

26:22

recruiters, I feel for them, but they

26:25

are sort of assessed against how many

26:27

people can they move? Can they bring in

26:29

the company and how fast? That

26:32

doesn't actually set you up then to sort

26:35

of take the time you need to take to

26:37

find the right person who might stay for 20

26:39

years. That seat can't

26:41

be empty for that long because you've got

26:43

leaders who are like, I can't get my

26:45

job done. We can't meet the demand as

26:48

the consumer. We can't meet our forecast for

26:50

the quarter. And so the whole system sort

26:52

of has gotten to a place where we're

26:54

probably focused on the wrong set of factors.

26:57

And it's a pretty big machine to turn back

26:59

the clock on and do a different way. These

27:03

recruiting companies, how could they

27:05

be helped in this process to,

27:08

number one, understand the

27:10

company's legitimate needs? Not

27:14

what the whole marketing machine has

27:17

put out, but legitimately what

27:19

is needed in that

27:21

person. Are there ways that the

27:24

recruiters can be helped through this?

27:27

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. Like

27:29

I said before, in the book, we have this

27:31

kind of 60-some item

27:34

assessment on how does your company work. I

27:37

think if companies could use that information

27:39

to sort of create a much more

27:41

honest view of how we work day-to-day,

27:44

that would help recruiters tell the full story of what

27:46

it's going to be like once you get there. I

27:48

think the second thing is that we

27:51

could help them in having just this

27:53

conversation. Instead of talking

27:55

about job descriptions and technical capabilities, let's

27:58

talk about how you like to The

28:00

work. Let's talk about how you like

28:02

to collaborate hey like to give feedback, how you

28:04

like to be developed, the to talk about whether

28:06

or not you believe in rest and recovery or

28:08

you went back to back meetings or or nine

28:10

and if you can find out more about how

28:12

people work. Then. You can start

28:14

to sorted do a lot better matchmaking.

28:17

That. Might sort I have the chance of

28:19

being a long term committed relationship because here's

28:22

the deal. Cows in the conversations, the interviews

28:24

where he talked to talent that had right

28:26

fit. It's amazing what they

28:29

say. right? They say things like

28:31

i didn't worry about what I wear, How

28:34

I thought. How I show up

28:36

it just felt like I could be more

28:38

me. They talked about this

28:40

idea. I started sided every Sunday instead of

28:42

the seventy five percent of people to have

28:44

the Sunday scares. These individuals were

28:47

excited to come into work on Monday morning

28:49

and one of my favorite quotes from an

28:51

interview. He was. In

28:53

the end in a right fit experience. I

28:56

could just practice my craft more

28:58

purely. Every single day because

29:00

my. Creative. Energy wasn't going to the

29:02

coordination of work or mans you nave emotions. I

29:04

was just a pure play. I was doing the

29:06

best work my life. And yet the

29:09

unfortunate thing is an almost every one of

29:11

those cases people leave their right fit. Because.

29:14

They get enticed and

29:16

intrigued and often mistake.

29:18

Comfort. For. Boredom and tell

29:21

you know I'm like I've been married for

29:23

fourteen years and and I'll tell you one

29:25

of the things it's really interesting about a

29:27

committed relationship. Is. It activates different

29:29

part of our brain. right? So

29:31

when you're in the job search or

29:33

you're in the first date, that's all

29:35

dopa mean. That's all excitement

29:38

and you can feel it. your heart,

29:40

and your heart beating your. You're totally

29:42

jazz. In. A committed relationship.

29:45

The. Neuro transmitters oxytocin,

29:48

And. That's feels more like a. Really

29:51

long. Soft.

29:53

Hug. right? And

29:55

we often mistake that feeling of

29:57

comfort for boredom or lack of.

30:00

momentum. And that's again, my

30:02

interviewees told me at the time and time again, they're

30:04

like, I just didn't look at the place that I

30:06

was, and how much

30:08

it fit how I like to work. And

30:11

because of that, it made it a little bit easier to leave. Do

30:14

the companies understand that

30:17

it may be wiser

30:19

to just slow down

30:21

the process a little, to

30:24

really understand who they're

30:27

bringing in and how they're going to

30:29

fit? Or is

30:32

it simply a matter of look, we

30:34

need somebody in that seat, and

30:36

it's got to be done in this amount of

30:38

time. Let's take the best we

30:40

can get at this moment. Well,

30:43

I would say it this way. The

30:45

future of work is going to force all of us into

30:48

a place where it's more the former not the latter.

30:50

Right. I mean, when you look at the trends,

30:52

and COVID wasn't the cause, but it was a

30:54

great accelerator, people are

30:57

unwilling to trade off their lives for work. Now,

31:00

many people are out there in the world that just

31:02

a job has to be a job and I need

31:04

one, I don't care. And I and you know, that's

31:06

not what we're talking about. We're talking about people who

31:08

at some point have a choice.

31:10

And they're choosing to say, Hey, I want

31:13

three things my job, I want more flexibility.

31:16

I want to feel valued, right,

31:18

seen and valued. And you

31:20

know, last but not least, I want to be

31:22

in a place where I can

31:25

belong, right, where I can sort of do the

31:27

best work of my life. And so I just

31:30

I look at that. And I'm like, it's

31:32

gonna force companies to hire a little bit

31:34

more slowly. Because the

31:36

bounce, you know, bounce out effect of

31:39

talent that comes in and leaves, it's

31:41

hugely detrimental. You have the lost time

31:44

of hiring, you have the lost time

31:46

of onboarding, and then you have all

31:48

of the lost productivity that happens when

31:50

a person isn't at their best,

31:52

it causes issues in

31:54

their performance and everyone else around them. So

31:57

I just think given where

31:59

we're headed, The company is going

32:01

to have to look much harder at how do we

32:03

make the right choice, even if

32:05

it takes more time. So we have a

32:07

better chance of that person staying 10 years

32:09

versus 10 seconds. Do

32:11

the people, like the managers, have

32:15

a good idea

32:17

of how to interview? Do

32:19

they know how

32:22

to draw the most out

32:24

of a candidate? For

32:26

the most part, are they going in

32:28

with a list of questions that was

32:31

pulled off the internet and

32:33

it becomes sort of a tennis match of

32:36

hitting the ball right straight to

32:38

somebody in the middle of the court. They

32:40

know where the ball is coming. They hit

32:42

the ball back over to you right in the middle of

32:45

the court. You hit the

32:47

ball back to them. They hit the

32:49

ball back to you. Then

32:51

at the end of 30 minutes, they say, well, there

32:53

were no bad shots, so this

32:56

is good. When, in fact,

32:58

there was no real game

33:01

being played. I

33:03

can remember Tom Hanks talking

33:05

about what it was like

33:07

to walk into the scene

33:09

with Denzel Washington in the

33:12

movie Philadelphia. He says, you're

33:14

in a tennis match. The

33:16

idea is not to win. The

33:18

idea is to hit the best shots in

33:21

order to make Denzel come and

33:23

hit the best shot back to me.

33:26

I love that. We're just seeing how much we

33:28

can get the most out of each other. How

33:31

much of that is going on

33:33

in corporations when they're doing

33:35

their hiring? Here's

33:38

what I would say. I mean this with the

33:40

utmost respect because there's a lot of people doing a

33:42

lot of work to try to land good talent, but

33:44

I almost feel like we're using those interviews to try

33:47

to look good versus trying

33:49

to help each other hit the

33:51

best shot. Or another way to put that is to get

33:53

to know each other at a really deep level. What

33:56

If job interviews were less like first dates and

33:58

more like family reunions? Where. You

34:00

just get to see me. Like

34:03

who I am on a

34:05

random Tuesday morning in January,

34:07

right? So. I think there's

34:09

a piece here that that we often walk in his interviews

34:11

trying to look at. We would make the company look good.

34:14

I want to look good as a manager. And

34:16

then interviewees are like hey I'm a tell you

34:18

my best stories the moment from I did my

34:20

tests as and I'm not Highlight that on my

34:22

resume. You're going to think I'm superman. And

34:25

so I think that's happening. The other thing that's

34:27

happening tell which is really sort of disappointing. I

34:29

think it was resume builder the to share this

34:31

data. Thirty. Eight percent of

34:33

managers. Recently. Surveyed admitted

34:36

to lying during an interview process.

34:39

Where they. They lied of in

34:41

the interview light and the job description or

34:43

live in the offer letter now. Also

34:46

then was like okay. If.

34:48

That's true, I gotta guess the interviewees or

34:50

line as well. And seventy two percent, a

34:52

candid submitted a line on the resume. Right?

34:55

And I think with that sells this isn't the people

34:57

are bad. It. Tells us that

34:59

whatever happened to recruiting is gotten us

35:02

to a place. Where. We feel

35:04

like we can't tell the truth if we cancel

35:06

the truth we can't help people find right fit.

35:08

And. Therefore, it's much harder for them to be the best work

35:11

of their life. Okay, so then.

35:13

It's really and comment on the

35:16

interviewer or n n the candidate.

35:19

To. Make the person. Feel.

35:22

Comfortable enough. To.

35:24

Reveal who they truly are.

35:26

That's right, And. It

35:28

may be incumbent upon the person

35:30

going in for the job to

35:33

somehow make. The manager or

35:35

whoever is interviewing them feel

35:37

comfortable enough. To say.

35:40

Well. This is what is really like. The.

35:43

How many people have those skills? I.

35:45

Don't think a lot right now, but they're buildable.

35:47

Kelso One of things I tell candidates I'm like,

35:49

hey, You're. Only going to get so

35:51

much information and interview. right? You're only

35:53

going to have so much time because typically we

35:55

get like the last five minutes of a thirty

35:57

minute interview to ask our one question and we

35:59

typically yeah, delay up with you love about working

36:02

there was great about a company has because we

36:04

want them to feel good. I think

36:06

one thing I so people who don't like. My

36:08

strategists always been. When I'm interviewing is

36:10

I go out to linked in. I

36:12

find I find someone with this profile.

36:14

They've worked at the company. That

36:17

I'm interviewing at. They. Were there at

36:19

least three years? And they've

36:21

recently left. And I want

36:23

to talk to them. Because.

36:25

Now that they're gone. They'll. Be

36:27

much more likely to tell me the truth of

36:29

what it's like to work there. And I'm

36:32

not going asked it to in all the dirty laundry.

36:34

That you can ask those questions of tell me what

36:37

a day in a life is like. They're. Tell.

36:39

Me: how people collaborate. Tell me what your

36:42

manager is like. Tell me how they gave

36:44

be back. Tell me what a high performance

36:46

looked like in that company. Tell me the

36:48

person at the profile success. The person who

36:50

just excelled in that company, right? So if

36:53

you use these sort of balancers to the

36:55

interview. You can sort judge

36:57

the the validity. Of the

36:59

information you're hearing and and just make little bit

37:02

smarter choice. in his

37:04

senses thing because an old days

37:06

references used to be a big

37:08

thing. he did. But. It

37:10

it sounds like now you

37:13

want to talk to the

37:15

unexpected reference to the person

37:18

who's gonna tell you what's

37:20

really going on rather than.

37:23

Calling up somebody. Who.

37:25

Has been. Put. On

37:28

a resume to say what?

37:30

Someone. Like to say synonym

37:33

respect them. Company is it's just

37:35

a dramatic shift in the way

37:37

things were and the way things

37:40

are in. It sounds like in

37:42

the way things are going to

37:44

be and because. I

37:47

had on the podcast. Bruce Filer

37:49

wrote a book called The Search

37:51

and. Of the hundreds or

37:53

thousands of people he talked to. The

37:56

majority were saying look if I

37:58

had the job. It gave me

38:00

a sense of purpose. Where. I'm

38:02

going into work. I didn't

38:04

even. See. The time

38:06

pass. Gigantic. Throw A

38:08

I went to that job. And. All

38:11

the sudden that looked up and the workday was

38:13

over. That. Was of much more

38:15

value to these people. Than

38:17

the money they were being paid. A

38:19

obviously a more can do for free.

38:22

But. They said they would take less

38:24

money. In. Order to have that

38:26

experience. And I just.

38:29

Wonder why wouldn't everybody?

38:32

Want. That to be the experience. Yet.

38:34

Shall I? I don't know, but it's

38:36

a really powerful idea that you're you're

38:39

sort of lean into which is you

38:41

know people who are in those rights

38:43

experiences. Like. They're not

38:45

watching the clock. You. Know they're

38:47

not burn out, they may be exhausted

38:49

times, but they're They're relatively not pronounces

38:51

the they're getting their energy restore, their

38:54

getting fed. And the most important part

38:56

of this is a when you're in

38:58

a rights fit. Your. Life

39:01

Benefits. Right? Because when I

39:03

do, you know, punched the clock so to

39:05

speak and I either walk out of my

39:07

home office or come back home from work.

39:10

I. Have something else to gets. And.

39:12

In those wrong with experiences we talked to

39:14

people about the places where it was not

39:16

right. Not. Only was work

39:18

hard. But. It damaged their

39:21

outside of work and some really

39:23

profound. And. Super sad weights and

39:25

so I just think realizing both My

39:27

copy same for new talent standpoint but

39:29

at the choice you're making. It.

39:31

Isn't just about nine to five? It's

39:34

gonna have ripple effects out into

39:36

the entirety of life, and if

39:38

nothing else, that idea will just

39:40

get people to stop. And

39:42

have a little bit more intense. And.

39:44

Pay a little bit more attention before they say

39:47

yes. So what

39:49

I'm getting added the conversation

39:51

is that a lot of

39:53

this can be. Solved.

39:55

Or at least. You. Can

39:57

have a start to the solution. just

40:00

by taking the time to

40:03

be curious, look at

40:05

yourself, look at where you are, whether

40:07

you're the candidate or whether you're the

40:09

company and say, who

40:11

am I or who are

40:13

we really? And

40:15

who is gonna be able to come

40:17

in and join us and

40:20

make us better and not even

40:23

know that the clock has passed

40:25

at the end of the day? I

40:28

think Cal, to your point, if you're

40:30

a talent interviewing, just get

40:32

really clear about what you're solving for and how you

40:34

like to work. And if you're a company, just

40:37

be authentic, right? Tell the

40:39

interviewee, this is what it's like here

40:42

because if they take the job they're finding out anyway,

40:45

and the truth is there's plenty of talent out

40:47

there for you. There's someone who's gonna fall in

40:49

love with your company no matter how crazy it

40:51

might be to work there, right? That's

40:54

someone's sort of energy. And I see that again and

40:56

again, like I'll tell you, I've been at some of

40:58

the biggest companies in the world. And I can tell

41:01

you Nike works very differently from Target, works

41:03

very differently from Google, works very differently

41:05

from Mars. None of them

41:08

are any better than the other. They're just different.

41:11

And so therefore a different talent

41:13

is gonna do their best work in them. And

41:15

that's the end of the story. It's not about

41:17

good or bad. It's not about toxic or engaging.

41:19

There's not five best practices or ways to build

41:21

a company, but there is some very

41:23

distinct ways that companies do work. And if we

41:25

were just more honest about it, you're gonna find

41:27

the right talent. They're gonna stay longer. They're gonna do

41:30

better work. And in the end, your company is gonna

41:32

succeed. So the companies

41:34

need to be more honest, but

41:37

to me, I'm even wondering, are

41:39

they not seeing what

41:41

is in front of them because

41:43

they haven't stopped to reboot their curiosity.

41:45

Everybody's just running as fast as they

41:48

can to move forward. Nobody's

41:50

just stopping to say, you know

41:52

what? Let's interview this job first.

41:55

What is this job? What does this

41:57

job really need? I love that. right

42:00

now and get everybody around

42:02

to think about it and

42:05

find exactly what

42:08

the right fit would look like in their minds

42:11

and then go about and look for

42:13

it. Hey, Cal, I love the idea

42:15

and I'm probably going to steal it with pride

42:17

to say, what if

42:19

the first interview was the job, the empty seat?

42:24

That alone would do wonders to be able

42:26

to help us find right fit. I

42:28

feel for people, man, I was just reading this

42:31

book on burnout recently that set up

42:33

this really interesting way to think about burnout, that

42:35

burnout isn't about too much on our plate in

42:37

the moment. Burnout is

42:39

the fact that we have not fully

42:41

gone through all the compounding

42:44

stress cycles that have been a part of our

42:46

life. What I

42:48

love about that is when you think about

42:50

COVID and a downturn in the economy and

42:52

all the macroeconomic strife that's happening around us,

42:55

that's getting us to a place where we just, our

42:58

view gets narrowed, our choices

43:00

are more short term and we run

43:03

faster, which we know isn't helping us to

43:05

do this kind of work to your point to

43:07

back up, take a deep breath, open

43:09

our eyes really wide and ask ourselves what

43:11

we're solving for. And so maybe the answer

43:13

of even burnout lies in let's

43:15

just be a little bit more and have

43:18

a little bit more intent, take just

43:20

a little bit more time on the front end, present

43:23

a little bit more realistic view of ourselves.

43:25

And I think we're going to start to solve into some of the

43:27

issues that are making work really hard right now. Yeah,

43:31

it just seems to me, if you

43:34

could figure out a way to

43:36

reboot your curiosity and

43:38

look at where you are, and it's

43:40

not much different, maybe not different at

43:42

all from what you were recommending in

43:45

the beginning of the conversation for the

43:47

candidate for the position. I

43:49

use the word reflect to just

43:51

let me reflect upon my current situation,

43:53

see where I'm at, see where it's

43:56

going to work. I Use

43:58

the word curiosity, but it sounds like. We're.

44:01

We're both in the same place

44:03

and. There could be

44:05

some tremendous solutions here in

44:07

it. It really. Does

44:09

sound like it's the palm

44:11

keeps escalating. And people

44:13

aren't just. Trying. Fram

44:15

any job. Only. To

44:18

find out that in two months

44:20

they're not in the right job

44:22

or if the company's trying to

44:24

bring what looks like the best.

44:27

Possible. Candidate although.

44:29

Maybe. They get arms crossed the

44:32

wrong way to deal comes

44:34

around every one. It seems

44:36

like a deeper form. Of

44:38

interviewing. Is. Gonna be necessary

44:41

and as and interviewing as gotta make

44:43

people feel relaxed. sort of like what

44:45

you're talking about. Of seeing

44:47

it as a family reunion instead

44:49

of a first dates the from

44:51

as is pretty hard to go

44:54

on a family reunion when you

44:56

never been in space. didn't the

44:58

first place. Here. And tell so.

45:00

I love the point mean everything just that

45:02

I'm a big yes yes yes. And and

45:04

I there's some companies doing some interesting things

45:06

right? There's companies that are. Allowing.

45:09

Prospective interview used to just join a

45:11

team meeting and work through a real

45:13

issue they're trying to solve. right?

45:15

So it both provides you the ability to see the

45:17

team and action and also gives you a chance to

45:19

kind of see how you fit in there. I think

45:21

that's pretty intriguing. There's. Another company

45:23

that, instead of posting singular

45:25

job descriptions. They've. Posted three

45:27

different jobs inside the same job family

45:30

so they basically post them to say

45:32

hey, no matter what level you are.

45:35

Here's. Where you can go next. And.

45:37

Here's the next job for you and see You

45:39

get to see this whole career progress which I

45:41

think it's pretty cool enough. Yeah I'd say is

45:43

is this that. I. Also wonder that

45:45

with the eight point eight, trillion Dollars

45:48

have lost productivity and all of the

45:50

lay offs that we see happening particularly

45:52

intact. And we could rewind the

45:54

clock. And. Be a little bit more choice

45:56

full. We. Probably would have seen

45:58

less of a neat. more people

46:01

because you're getting more created juice out

46:04

of the people that are already there because they're a

46:06

right fit. And so part of like this whole thing,

46:08

and I feel for people getting laid off because I'm

46:10

like, man, I know these companies.

46:13

And they were hiring like mad,

46:15

you know, three, four or five years ago.

46:17

And of course, it was going to end up

46:19

here because we were hiring people that were just

46:21

were filling seats and we're not thinking through, are

46:24

they good fit? Are they right fit? And, you know,

46:26

sometimes I think, hey, if we did, I wonder

46:29

if we would have needed to hire so many people.

46:31

And be I wonder if the people that were

46:33

there would have been able to easily find other

46:36

places to go inside the company, because they just

46:38

were a part of our fabric. Yeah,

46:41

you know, I'm just this crazy image

46:43

in my head, it doesn't completely apply.

46:45

But I was just thinking of

46:47

a basketball team on a court. And

46:49

the best it might have 12 chairs

46:52

for the players. And imagine

46:54

if all of a sudden, you

46:56

said, Okay, we're gonna have 24 players,

46:58

we're gonna have 24 chairs, like

47:01

what that would do to

47:04

the whole chemistry of the

47:06

12 that were already there,

47:08

it would seem to me to

47:10

be a recipe for

47:12

chaos. But I get it,

47:14

if the company wants to grow, then it's gonna

47:17

need those 12 people. So

47:19

it's not the best analogy. But

47:21

it does seem like if people

47:23

and maybe it is a good

47:25

analogy, because I was reading about

47:27

a woman who was

47:29

hired to hire people by one

47:31

of these big tech companies, and

47:34

in a surge of hiring, and

47:36

then she got there. And there was

47:38

like no work for her. And so she worked

47:40

for like a year and a half, or didn't

47:42

work for a year and a half. Then she

47:45

was let go. And then

47:47

she's in a worse place. Because now she

47:49

goes into her job interview. And they say, What

47:51

did you do in the last year and a

47:53

half? That's right. That's right. And I

47:55

love the analogy though, just to extend a little

47:57

bit further, imagine if that basketball team with 12

47:59

players players was undefeated

48:02

and were at mid-season and all of a sudden

48:04

12 new players from all

48:06

these other teams walk in. They're

48:08

going to bring with them all their plays, all

48:11

their positions, all their history. And

48:13

in the end, that great team

48:15

that had great chemistry is just going

48:17

to get diluted. And I think

48:19

that's what happens when we hire and hire and

48:21

hire and hire at a fast rate of speed

48:23

is you're just diluting your culture. Every

48:26

company has a way they work that's

48:29

super unique. It's their secret Dakota ring of success.

48:31

And the more we grow, the more we hire,

48:33

and the less we rerecruit people

48:35

back to that, the less we

48:37

are ourselves anymore. And then you

48:39

just get in this really bad cycle of

48:41

just hiring for technical skill and the culture

48:43

becomes this amalgamation of everybody's favorite way to

48:46

do work, which doesn't work. Wow.

48:48

Well, I got to say, I am

48:51

incredibly grateful for this

48:53

conversation because I just

48:55

started to help companies train

48:58

their interviewers and to get

49:01

them to do all the things that

49:03

we're talking about. Interviewing

49:06

the job first, be curious

49:08

about who you are, what you

49:11

have around you. You make the

49:13

candidate feel comfortable. I never thought

49:15

of it as a family reunion, but

49:18

if you can make them feel that comfortable,

49:20

then you're going to get

49:22

authentic responses. And then you

49:26

can respond authentically. And

49:28

so what you're telling me, what

49:30

your book told me is I'm

49:34

in exactly the

49:36

right place because there's this

49:39

huge need for it. So

49:41

thank you, because I feel like you opened

49:44

the door. Only

49:46

wasn't a door. It was more like

49:49

an avenue because it's so large and

49:51

there's so much need out there. So

49:54

I will be eternally grateful

49:57

for all the work you've put into this. great

50:00

book, great title, great

50:03

first paragraph. And it

50:06

goes on and on because

50:08

you've obviously spent years looking

50:12

into this problem. And

50:15

as I'm reading, it really

50:17

all seems like common sense. And

50:21

in the end, you know, that's the funniest

50:23

thing about it is I go back and read the

50:25

book now and I'm like, it really is common sense.

50:27

So what's stopping us? And

50:29

what's stopping us is just these habits

50:32

we built. They're really hard to unwind, but

50:35

now's the time. And so I'm just, you know, I'm grateful

50:37

for you for creating the space for me, Cal. I'm grateful

50:39

someone else is doing this kind of work to help companies

50:41

be a little bit better at this. And, you

50:43

know, I hope for a day when work's a

50:46

little bit easier and these

50:48

brilliant people I bump into every day have the chance

50:50

to do the best work of their lives. Well,

50:53

I don't know how long it

50:55

took you to get to the

50:57

place to do this book and

50:59

be on this podcast. How many

51:01

years of knowledge, of learning,

51:04

did it take for you to grasp

51:06

all this? I mean,

51:08

I'm 25 years in my career. So it's

51:10

been a while. And this

51:12

book was a deep dive of about 12 months to

51:15

kind of find my way through it. And

51:17

it was a great gift. You know, I wake

51:20

up every day now so much more aware and

51:23

so much more clarity than I did before. So just

51:25

the writing of it was great. And, you know, the

51:28

fact that it's able to help

51:30

your listeners or even yourself just, you

51:32

know, makes my day. So it makes

51:34

it all worth it. Well, that's

51:36

two people whose day has been

51:38

made. That

51:45

about wraps it up. I wanna

51:47

thank Tim Ferriss for nudging me to

51:49

start this podcast. It always leads

51:51

me to the right places. I

51:54

hope the conversation you just heard

51:56

leads to a great deal of

51:58

awareness and alertness. to

52:00

the $8.8 trillion

52:02

problem. Please

52:04

reach out to me at CalP you