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with Jennie Kane. Welcome

3:50

to BIRTHFULMIGHTYPAIRENT OR PARENT-TO-BE. I'm

3:52

Adriana Lassada and today's episode

3:54

is the last one in

3:56

our Get a Head Start

3:58

on your postpartum logg- series

4:01

and we kind of saved the

4:04

most daunting of all the topics for

4:06

last because today we're going to explore

4:08

how to go about setting up your

4:10

child care options. As

4:12

you can imagine this is an incredibly

4:14

complex topic because of all the variables

4:17

that need to come together and

4:19

that's even without considering the emotional

4:21

aspect of going through this process.

4:24

Nevertheless we are certain that you

4:26

are going to need some form

4:28

of child care at some point

4:31

whether it's an everyday situation or

4:34

you're a stay-at-home parent that needs a

4:36

family member to watch your child one

4:39

afternoon a week so you can more

4:41

easily knock off items off your to-do

4:43

list or simply get some much needed

4:46

time to yourself. So I

4:49

want you to approach this episode as

4:51

a primer of sorts so that you

4:53

can start familiarizing yourself with what the

4:55

process can look like and

4:58

also know that for this particular

5:00

episode we're focusing more on the

5:02

community-based child care piece of the

5:04

puzzle and we decided to

5:06

do that for three reasons. The

5:08

first is that even if you're

5:10

thinking of going with a more

5:12

transactional child care option like a

5:14

child care center or even a

5:16

nanny that is not something that

5:18

will be available to you 24-7

5:20

you will need a combination of

5:22

options so it's super helpful

5:24

to be more intentional about setting up

5:26

your community-based options rather than scrambling at

5:29

the last minute to see who can

5:31

help you out. The

5:33

second reason is that the process

5:35

of figuring out your more transactional

5:37

options will be quite unique to

5:40

you depending on regulations of

5:42

where you live, your

5:44

schedule, your child's needs, what you can

5:46

afford, and the quality of

5:48

care that is accessible to you. And

5:51

so it would be ridiculous of us

5:53

to try to tackle all of that

5:55

especially since an amazing resource to help

5:57

you figure out all of those details

6:00

already exists. I'm

6:03

referring to childcareaware.org

6:06

and part of their power is that they

6:08

work with a national network of more than

6:10

500 child

6:13

care resource and referral

6:15

agencies. These agencies

6:17

serve as hubs to help you

6:19

find quality child care and

6:21

the services they provide will vary

6:24

depending on where you live, but

6:26

usually include referrals to local child

6:28

care providers information on

6:31

state licensing requirements, where

6:33

to get help for paying for

6:35

child care, and even

6:37

information on services for children

6:39

with special needs. Heads

6:42

up though that the childcareaware

6:44

website has so much information

6:46

that it can feel a

6:48

little daunting. So give

6:50

yourself time to get acquainted with the

6:52

site and understand the different types of

6:55

services available to you along with the

6:57

related jargon before rushing to set up

6:59

interviews with child care centers. If

7:02

you take the time to explore

7:04

the website, you will find lots

7:07

of helpful lists, downloads, and

7:09

step-by-step suggestions on how to start

7:12

your child care search and

7:14

select a child care program. And

7:17

yes, they even have helpful lists

7:20

of questions that you can ask

7:22

during your tours. And

7:24

then the third reason we

7:26

are focusing more on community

7:28

care options for this episode

7:30

is that there are long-term,

7:32

even lifelong benefits to setting

7:34

up care shares and creating

7:36

nourishing community connections. If

7:39

you heard our recent episode with Michelle

7:41

Peterson, you heard there how we talked

7:43

about the importance of creating a village

7:45

of support to help you during your

7:47

immediate postpartum, but it's not like

7:49

you stop needing help once you go back

7:51

to work. And again, you're not

7:54

meant to take care of your child alone.

7:56

I also get that

7:58

building community can seem daunting. So

8:00

that is why I wanted to speak

8:02

specifically to my guest Leslie Burrell today,

8:05

because she has not only had to

8:07

figure out how to set up community

8:09

care for her child as a single

8:11

mom in New York City, she

8:13

also created a very powerful

8:15

app to help simplify the

8:18

process for all of us.

8:21

And I am all for helpful

8:23

tools. You're listening

8:25

to Birthful here to inform

8:27

your intuition. Welcome

8:34

Leslie. It is so lovely to have you here

8:36

on the show. I'm looking forward

8:39

to our conversation. Me too. Thanks

8:42

so much for having me. Oh

8:44

my gosh. And you are

8:46

doing some amazing work to

8:48

try to improve childcare options

8:50

and just the care in

8:53

general. Why don't you tell

8:55

us a little bit about yourself, how you identify and

8:57

the work you're doing. Sure. So

8:59

my name is Leslie Burrell. I'm the

9:01

founder of a company called Carefully. Carefully

9:06

is a platform for parents to

9:08

connect with people they know and

9:10

trust to create networks

9:13

for exchanging childcare, organizing

9:15

playdates and planning events.

9:18

My background, I think that was the other question you asked.

9:21

Sorry. My background, I

9:23

am, my father is Cuban. My

9:25

mother is Jewish. That's how I

9:27

identify. She her as well. Those

9:30

are different types of identities, but those

9:32

are all mine. And

9:36

what led you to

9:38

create Carefully and your initiative

9:40

on, called fixed childcare, right?

9:42

To try to, I mean, give us

9:45

a bird's

9:47

eye view of the state of childcare

9:49

in the US, which is, to

9:52

put it mildly, mildly, dismal. Sure.

9:57

For sure. It says, what, what?

10:00

What we talk about in the

10:02

B2B space is 90% of US

10:04

workers don't have access to employer-provided

10:06

childcare. So whether you're a freelancer,

10:09

a gig worker, working non-stander hours,

10:11

these are people that

10:13

either their employer doesn't offer childcare benefits

10:15

or they don't qualify for childcare benefits.

10:18

And offering solutions that are

10:20

inclusive, we know is really

10:22

important, but that also allow

10:25

employees to connect with each other at

10:27

a time when we're feeling isolated and

10:29

lonely and depressed and we're sitting in

10:32

our homes. And fixed

10:34

childcare is our latest initiative to really

10:36

surface the stories of the people that

10:39

are on the ground doing the work

10:42

and helping to really drive those

10:44

stories home and make the issue

10:46

more well understood so we can

10:48

help find the solutions to make

10:50

care affordable, accessible and inclusive. And

10:52

that's really what Carefully is all

10:54

about. We know that childcare is

10:56

expensive, inaccessible and stressful.

10:59

And with our platform, we try to

11:02

help people find other options so that

11:05

they can connect with their community, that

11:07

they're not always having to spend money

11:09

on childcare. And I

11:11

really came to this solution

11:14

trying to solve my own problems as a single mom.

11:17

I have been through a journey

11:19

as a single mom living and working

11:21

in New York. And

11:24

when he was three going on

11:26

four, I didn't have a lot

11:28

of friends that had kids in New York City and

11:30

I was in between jobs so

11:32

I didn't have a sitter at the time because

11:35

I couldn't afford it. And he

11:37

was at school and I was trying to figure

11:39

out what I was doing so I needed another

11:41

job. And he's very

11:43

extroverted so he always wants to have people

11:46

around and somebody entertaining him. And

11:49

as a single mom, I always need a break.

11:51

And so to me, play dates were the answer,

11:53

but I didn't have a network

11:55

of parents. And so

11:57

I started reaching out to people at the park.

12:00

asking them to come over and have their kids

12:02

have a play date. My idea

12:04

was the kids would play and I would get a

12:06

break. I really realized at that

12:09

point that actually the parents come over

12:11

and you end up spending the time

12:13

entertaining the parents. For me as an

12:15

introvert, it's not a break. At that

12:17

point, I took a step back and I

12:19

said, there has to be a way for us

12:21

to remove that obligation and guilt that parents

12:23

feel to always be around

12:25

and watch the kids and do that,

12:28

whereas the kids are fine. That's

12:30

how carefully I was really born. I

12:32

put my background in product and technology

12:35

to work and I said, let me

12:37

solve this problem for myself. That's

12:40

how carefully it came to life.

12:42

As we looked around and saw

12:45

a lot of the solutions in

12:47

the child care space were still

12:49

targeted towards people of means, people

12:52

in the upper socioeconomic classes. I

12:54

really wanted a solution that was

12:56

beautiful and well-designed and thoughtful but

12:59

prioritized the needs of vulnerable communities,

13:01

marginalized communities, but was still inclusive

13:03

and anybody could use. That's really

13:06

what I've been focused on with

13:08

Carefully. Yeah. The most

13:10

recent initiative of course is fixed child

13:12

care, which is an outgrowth of that.

13:16

Say I am currently pregnant, have

13:18

a job thinking after my baby

13:20

is born, I probably need to

13:22

go back to work. I

13:25

know nothing about child care. It's all

13:27

new to me. What

13:29

are the options out there for me

13:31

to consider? I think that there's

13:33

a few things to think about. I

13:36

would first start off and say

13:38

there's no silver bullet. It's always

13:40

going to be a combination of

13:42

options and it depends on your

13:44

situation. You have your informal

13:46

care, which is things like your friends

13:48

and family that you rely on, your

13:51

unlicensed care, which could be home-based

13:54

care providers. You have your license

13:56

care, which is daycare. You have

13:58

nannies. A lot of

14:00

times there's different price points for me. When

14:03

my son was younger, we

14:05

did a nanny share with another friend

14:07

and that worked out really well for

14:09

us because it allowed him to be

14:11

with another child and it allowed us

14:13

to have one sitter between

14:16

the two of us. I was also

14:18

working long hours working in tech, but

14:20

really, especially if you're lucky enough to

14:22

have paid leave, using that time to build

14:25

your community, that's the time when you can

14:27

start to find other moms who

14:29

are on leave too and start building

14:31

your community on Carefully or in real

14:34

life too. And then as the kids

14:36

grow, you have a community where you

14:38

can start sharing care. So that's that

14:40

informal care network, which is one part

14:42

of care, which is really critical. And

14:44

if you start building those bonds from

14:46

when the kids are babies, you

14:49

and the parents can grow together. I know

14:51

that that was something that I started. So

14:53

I think that you have to really get

14:55

out there. And I think also when you're

14:57

looking at, when you're looking for affordable care,

15:00

which is what we think about too, there

15:02

are a lot of subsidized care

15:04

options too, but they're harder to

15:06

find. And that's one of the

15:08

things that we see a lot

15:10

when we're doing our advocacy work,

15:12

that not all of the subsidized

15:14

care options, our

15:17

spaces are filled up because people

15:19

just don't know about them. And

15:22

so you actually have to do a lot of research

15:24

and digging to find them. And this is part of

15:26

the problem. You have to do a lot of work

15:28

to find them. Then you have to do a lot

15:31

of work to fill out all the paperwork and jump

15:33

through the hoops. And that's, it's not

15:35

a good situation, but the reality is

15:37

if you don't have the money to

15:40

pay for formal childcare, that's expensive, it

15:42

can cost over a thousand dollars a

15:44

month. And when that's the average, of

15:46

course, in places like New York or

15:48

big cities, it's gonna be much higher.

15:51

Then you have to really do the research

15:53

to find the affordable options. And then once

15:56

you've done the research, you then have to

15:58

do more work to do the pay. for

16:00

work to get into

16:02

those programs, right? So it's not easy,

16:04

but you can find them because the

16:07

spaces are there. And

16:09

so in terms of these options

16:11

for subsidized care, what are

16:13

there? Do you know, what did you find? It's

16:16

going to vary, you know, state to

16:18

state, city to city, and

16:21

cities are trying, I think they're trying

16:23

to do the work, but they're dealing

16:25

with bureaucratic processes. And

16:28

so fixed child care.com is our

16:30

website. And we do have a

16:32

section with resources for parents called

16:34

read, watch, listen, if you go

16:36

there, we have articles for new

16:39

parents where you can find all

16:41

of these tips and tricks for

16:43

finding vouchers, finding subsidized care that

16:45

we recommend. So I

16:47

would say go there. I think also

16:50

wherever your local your local city site

16:52

is, go there and really look for

16:54

subsidized care. There's usually resources at the

16:57

city level, but you do have to

16:59

do digging. And also talk to people,

17:01

you know, talk to your local community

17:03

organizations, go in and ask questions, talk

17:05

to other parents. And

17:07

a lot of this is is word of

17:09

mouth that you can get in there and

17:11

do it. And that's where where we see

17:13

a lot of the knowledge being held, unfortunately.

17:15

This is an

17:18

overwhelming topic, because there's so many

17:20

moving parts. So I think we've

17:22

got the one part that we

17:24

talked about in terms of options

17:26

that you have, which you explained,

17:28

whether it's paid, whether it's formal,

17:31

informal, whether it's friends and family,

17:33

nannies, you know, in your home,

17:35

outside your home, and sort

17:37

of trying to navigate what fits better for

17:40

you. And then that can be a combination

17:42

of things. And I hear a lot with

17:44

my doula clients, like the baby's gonna spend

17:46

three days a week with their grandmother, and

17:49

then they're at childcare for two days a

17:51

week. And so and so it is a

17:53

mix of that. Then

17:55

trying to figure out how to pay for it.

17:57

And you were saying that on average, that $1,000

18:01

per month for childcare

18:03

outside the home as the

18:06

average and depending on what city you are, I've

18:08

heard like a lot more and also a lot

18:10

less. Yeah. Yeah.

18:12

And then try to figure out if

18:14

there are vouchers or subsidies or programs

18:16

out there that can make this easier

18:19

for you. And then

18:21

there's the emotional piece of it

18:24

of people worry like I found

18:26

this childcare, this is what I can afford,

18:29

or this is the combination of friends and family

18:31

that I connected with. And

18:34

how can I navigate

18:37

the part of thinking,

18:39

is my child going to

18:41

be safe? Are they going to

18:43

be well taken care of? Are their unique

18:45

needs going to be met? And so I

18:48

think let's go down that rabbit hole. Yeah.

18:51

I mean, I think that, you

18:53

know, family or home base here,

18:55

this is where people have set

18:58

up childcare in their home and

19:00

it's set up as a childcare

19:02

center. And a lot of families

19:05

find that to be much more

19:07

aligned with their needs. And they

19:10

prefer that, especially people that are

19:13

from underrepresented groups, because

19:16

I'm a big proponent of family-based

19:18

care. It's usually small, they're small

19:20

centers. They can be

19:22

both licensed and unlicensed. It really

19:24

varies state by state. And that doesn't

19:27

necessarily impact the quality of care. I

19:29

think that that's oftentimes a misrepresentation, though

19:31

they can be license exempt. Sometimes

19:33

it's informal, meaning they don't need to

19:36

be licensed based on the regulations in

19:38

that state. But a lot of times

19:40

the childcare

19:42

providers are very dedicated to the

19:45

community. They're from the community. They

19:48

understand the community. They understand their needs.

19:50

They care so much about the community

19:52

and they're oftentimes much less expensive. They

19:55

really just want to help the community.

19:57

And that's why I have a special...

19:59

place my heart for these people. I've

20:01

met a lot of these family-based care

20:03

providers that are really

20:05

dedicating their lives to surviving,

20:08

barely surviving, and making ends meet

20:11

just to help the families in

20:13

their community get to work. So

20:16

I give them a big shout

20:18

out. The formal child care centers

20:21

are oftentimes much

20:23

fancier, I would say, but that

20:25

doesn't necessarily indicate that they're a

20:28

higher quality, so to speak. And it

20:30

really just depends on your preference, what

20:32

you think is going to be a

20:34

better fit for you and your values.

20:37

And then a nanny can oftentimes be

20:39

more flexible because they're going to work

20:42

with your particular schedule. And I would

20:44

say also family-based centers often have more

20:46

flexibility as well. That's one of the

20:48

biggest challenges in child care is a

20:50

lot of these child care centers, both

20:52

family-based and formal daycare centers, have a

20:55

working schedule of nine to five. And

20:57

we know that a lot of people

20:59

don't work in a normal nine to

21:01

five schedule. Now, family-based child care centers

21:03

that are in-home usually are more flexible

21:05

and will have different hours. So that's

21:08

another consideration to make. But it's really

21:10

about understanding what are the things that

21:12

are important to you and prioritizing those

21:14

things. And sometimes,

21:17

I have heard from people that you

21:19

really end up crossing

21:21

off a lot of things because

21:23

it's going to come down to

21:26

who has availability. And that's the

21:28

breaks in the market that we're

21:30

in, unfortunately. So you really

21:32

have to prioritize what's really, really important

21:35

to you and be willing to make

21:38

those tradeoffs and

21:40

going into that situation knowing what you're willing

21:42

to trade off, I would say. What are

21:45

some of the big things that people

21:47

should be looking out for when trying

21:51

to find care in terms of that?

21:53

What questions should they ask? Or what

21:57

minimum standards should their daycare have?

21:59

have, if you will, in

22:01

order for them to remember,

22:04

like, I'm somebody who knows nothing

22:06

about this, right? And I'm stepping

22:08

into this brave new world. I

22:11

would say everybody has to decide

22:13

for themselves what's important to them.

22:15

I'll just give you an example. I

22:18

was actually on a

22:20

Slack group and there was a new mother

22:22

that was saying just that she's pregnant, not

22:24

even have her baby, and was getting overwhelmed

22:26

by everything that people were telling her to

22:29

read. And as a new mom, I really

22:31

didn't read anything. That's my parenting fast. So

22:33

trying to tell people, like, these are the

22:35

hundred questions you need to go and ask

22:37

everybody to make sure you

22:40

make the exact right choice. I find that

22:42

to be really stressful. Like, you're going to

22:44

be fine. Your instincts are great. Trust your

22:46

values and figure that out and ask people

22:48

based on those things. Because if you get

22:51

caught up in trying to make

22:53

the perfect choice, and

22:55

again, this is my opinion, you're going

22:57

to stress yourself out. And if you

23:00

feel like something's not right, then go

23:02

with your instincts and make another choice.

23:04

Definitely, if you sense that it's not

23:06

right, then make the right decision for

23:08

your family. I try not to

23:11

overthink things. So I can't tell you that

23:13

there's a ton of things to think about

23:15

other than, like, you want somebody that's going

23:17

to really care about your child and feel

23:19

warm and loving. That to me is the

23:21

most important thing for me personally, you know,

23:24

especially as a baby. I don't

23:27

know about you, but when life is

23:29

busy, and honestly, it feels like it's

23:31

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23:33

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23:35

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23:37

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23:40

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SEC registered investment advisor. View

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View important disclosures at acorns.com/birthful.

26:40

And talking about things that can stress

26:42

you out, it can be super stressful

26:44

when you've figured out your daycare situation,

26:46

you thought it was one way and

26:48

then they're not doing the

26:50

things that they said they were going to do or

26:53

people are taking care of your child

26:56

in ways that you really do not

26:58

want them to be taken

27:00

care of in that way. And that can

27:02

be extremely stressful. What

27:04

are some ways to navigate

27:06

that communication with the center

27:08

you're at or with

27:11

your family members to write like this

27:13

is a very common and stressful conversation

27:15

if say your mother-in-law is taking care

27:17

of your baby or your father-in-law is

27:19

taking care of your baby. Yeah. How

27:21

do you navigate those? Well,

27:23

I think I mean, that is where I

27:26

understand like having expectations and understanding what's important

27:28

to you. So if there are things that

27:30

are important, I mean, with a baby, it's

27:32

a little bit it's a little bit harder.

27:34

But I'll use an example with when we

27:37

talk about setting up play dates or child

27:39

care exchanges. So like screen time is a

27:41

big thing. And we tell people, you know,

27:43

it's really important to be clear about, like,

27:46

what are your expectations around screen time on

27:48

a play date? You know, be clear with

27:50

people about what your expectations are. So if

27:52

there's things that are important to you when

27:54

you're going in, like, want to make sure

27:57

that they're eating healthy, that they're having naps,

27:59

that they're getting. play a time, you know,

28:01

they're like all of the things that you

28:03

feel like are like, you know, table stakes,

28:05

I would say, make sure that you say

28:08

them that you verbalize them. And then when

28:10

they're not happening that you verbalize, hey, why

28:12

didn't these things happen? And

28:14

then if they that happens again, I mean, I

28:16

think maybe, you know, I would say there's a

28:18

with a baby, there's maybe a one strike rule,

28:21

not a three strike rule, because the baby can't

28:23

take it, they can't take care of themselves. But

28:25

you know, you need to set the expectations from

28:27

the beginning about the things that you think are

28:29

really important, and make sure that y'all are on

28:31

the same page about those things. And

28:34

then if it doesn't happen, you know, make

28:36

sure that you communicate. So there's some conversation

28:38

about what happened, you know, maybe there was

28:40

a miscommunication, or you didn't understand the situation

28:42

so that there's no like

28:45

overreaction or miscommunications about things, which we

28:47

can all do as, as new parents

28:49

and, and parents that care about our

28:51

kids. But if it happens again,

28:53

I would, I would probably be the kind of

28:56

person to be a one, a one strike person

28:58

with a new baby, because the baby can't speak

29:00

out for themselves. More

29:02

specifically to community based

29:04

childcare, what are

29:07

some of the best practices in trying to

29:09

set that up? Sure.

29:11

So with community based childcare, which

29:13

is what carefully is about and

29:15

it's about connecting with people that

29:17

you know and trust in building

29:19

this network, so you can exchange

29:22

care, we really talk about finding

29:25

people that that that you do

29:27

know, it's so that you

29:29

can build this network. And a lot of

29:31

times people do have a network of two

29:33

or three people, but with something like carefully,

29:35

we really think about building a bigger network.

29:37

So you're not always relying on one

29:39

or two people, you're not just reaching out

29:42

when you're desperate, but that you're really building

29:44

out a habit of always asking each other

29:46

to help so that as you grow up,

29:48

the kids are just used to going between

29:51

each other's house and it becomes more of

29:53

a natural habit as it was. Many

29:55

years ago, kids just were always at

29:57

somebody's house and there was a natural

29:59

kind of transition between things. To

30:02

me, the best practice is not necessarily that it

30:04

has to be your best friend, but it has

30:06

to be somebody that shares your values. It has

30:08

to be somebody that maybe has a schedule that

30:11

matches with yours so that it's a good exchange.

30:13

It could be you work during the days and

30:15

they work during the nights. That could be a

30:17

great match. It doesn't have to be somebody that

30:19

you want to be going out with because if

30:22

you all are going out, then there's nobody to

30:24

watch the kids. It could just

30:26

be a neighbor that has a good schedule that

30:28

matches with you and you all respect

30:30

each other. It doesn't have to be best

30:32

friends. Again, the same thing. Within

30:35

the app, we allow people to really talk

30:37

about what are the things in your household

30:39

that are important. We're vaccinated.

30:44

We have no pets in the house. This

30:47

might be important for people that have allergies.

30:50

We have no guns in the house. Be clear about

30:52

that. In some states, a lot of people do have

30:54

guns in the house, which is important. If you do

30:56

have a gun, how is it stored? What

30:58

are the different things like that that are important

31:01

to you? Screen time is another thing to talk

31:03

about. Also, thinking about, try to

31:05

talk about things in a way that

31:07

is not judgmental. This

31:10

is not a time for judgment. If somebody

31:12

has a gun in their house, whatever you

31:14

think about it, don't be judgmental. You can

31:16

opt out of that exchange if that's not

31:18

something you want to do, but don't try

31:20

to engage in any judgment at this point.

31:22

This is all about trying to find the

31:24

people that you're going to match with. You

31:27

want people to be honest and

31:29

open. That's what I

31:31

try to encourage is people engaging in as

31:33

much transparency as you can so you can

31:36

find people that are the right match for

31:38

you. If you are transparent,

31:40

that's going to encourage other people too. The

31:43

other thing that's really great is it's really important

31:45

for you to reach out and ask for help

31:47

because when you ask for help, that teaches other

31:49

people to ask for help. There

31:52

needs to be somebody that initiates it

31:54

because that will show that other people

31:56

can because sometimes people are the first

31:58

person to ask. it's a little bit

32:00

hard. And so having a leader that's there to

32:02

kind of push people in the group

32:05

to kind of, oh, yeah, let's do this,

32:07

or an organizer is really helpful when you

32:09

have a group, either initiating

32:11

some, some group activities to get the group

32:13

started is a really great first practice, like,

32:15

where everybody's together, you're not going to just

32:18

like, get a group together and then start

32:20

dropping the kids off, you're going to start

32:22

by getting everybody together, let the kids play

32:24

together, let the parents mingle, you might

32:27

meet in the park first, then

32:29

after you meet in the park, you might

32:31

meet together at somebody's house, then once you

32:33

meet at their house, then you might say,

32:35

okay, let's have a short play date, that

32:37

you know, it's about building trust. And through those

32:39

activities, you build trust. And

32:42

what I think is really interesting

32:44

about this approach as opposed to

32:47

paid service or a service where

32:49

you just go and drop your kid off at

32:52

a home care or a daycare, that

32:55

this is a two way street. This is

32:57

not just I drop my kid off and

32:59

I pay you and I don't

33:02

provide service for your kid. Here,

33:04

you can't just ask for

33:06

help, you also have to give some help.

33:09

Yeah, and I love the phrase

33:11

of it's like solidarity, not charity.

33:13

So we say, you know,

33:15

you ask for help when you need it

33:17

and you give help when you can. And

33:19

I think that that's really important. I think

33:21

it's not an obligation. It's like, oh, you

33:24

watched my kid this time, I'll watch your

33:26

kid next time, for sure. And that's

33:28

why we we actually use a

33:30

system within carefully, it's called the

33:32

KarmaCare hours. And so you earn,

33:35

or you gain KarmaCare hours when you

33:37

watch somebody else's kids. And

33:39

then you can use that KarmaCare anywhere

33:41

in the system with anybody else.

33:44

So it doesn't have to be like a

33:46

one on one. And you know that people

33:48

are kind of staying in balance that way.

33:51

Because I do think sometimes there's this sense

33:53

of, oh, if somebody came over to my

33:55

house, then I have this obligation

33:57

to invite them back over and it

33:59

doesn't life doesn't always work out that way.

34:02

And so trying to really remove, again,

34:04

remove that sense of obligation and guilt

34:06

and realize that everybody's in here trying

34:08

to make things work and helping each

34:11

other out. And so you can just

34:13

breathe and be relaxed and know that

34:15

when you can, you're gonna help and

34:17

everybody's there for you. And so that's

34:20

like, there's no pressure in the

34:22

same way that you will help when you can. And

34:24

we believe you, we know it, it's okay. And

34:27

I love that so much because it also lets

34:29

you participate at your

34:32

comfort level, like, and

34:34

your skill level. Maybe I'm not great

34:36

at setting up activities, but I'm really

34:38

great at driving kids from one place

34:40

to another. So then those are the

34:42

things that I take on. So like,

34:45

what are some of the options that

34:47

are there in the app? Because I

34:49

love the ability to

34:51

have something that organizes this.

34:53

Yeah, there's definitely, definitely different

34:55

ways that you can organize

34:58

the care. And also the

35:00

other thing is some people aren't comfortable having

35:03

people into their home for different reasons, right?

35:05

So it doesn't have to be at your

35:07

house. You can invite people to the park.

35:09

You can organize a group event. So

35:12

say you have a group of five

35:14

or six people and you just wanna

35:16

invite everybody to the park for a

35:18

picnic one day, then you actually earn

35:21

KarmaCare hours for every kid that you're

35:23

hosting because we know it's more work

35:25

for every kid that you're taking care

35:27

of. So you actually earn more

35:29

Karma for each kid that you're taking care

35:31

of. It's not just for the total hours.

35:35

So you can do that. You can organize group events.

35:37

You can request care, obviously. You can also,

35:39

as you mentioned, you can post a request.

35:42

So say you're running late to pick up

35:44

the kids from school. You post a

35:47

request in the group and you say, hey,

35:49

can anybody help me? I'm gonna be an

35:51

hour late, pick up the kids and I'll

35:53

come grab them when I get home from

35:56

work. So that's great. And the play groups,

35:58

I always talk about the... organizing

36:00

a play group as a great

36:02

way to manage our after-school care

36:04

gap, which is like the 230

36:08

to 530 gap when we're still working and

36:10

the kids are out of school, which is

36:12

when you get together with five

36:15

families and you can kind

36:17

of rotate through the week. So each day

36:20

one family picks up the kids from school,

36:22

takes them to the park or takes them

36:24

to the house and watches the kids for

36:26

a few hours. And so that way all

36:29

the families aren't trying to do that after-school

36:31

juggle of watching the kids being on your

36:33

phone, being at the park. Everybody knows this.

36:35

I've done it too. But when you have

36:37

just one day a week where you're watching

36:39

the kids, and I did this with my

36:41

son so I know how powerful it is,

36:43

you take the kids, you take them to

36:45

the park, you're actually playing with them, you're

36:48

engaging with them, you're enjoying your time with

36:50

them. And

36:52

they have a group of kids to play with.

36:54

And then the rest of the week, you have

36:56

those three hours to get stuff done, which is

36:58

amazing. And then they come home and they're so

37:01

excited because they had play dates the whole week,

37:03

which is what most kids want. Right? Anyway,

37:06

right? To somebody

37:08

else because I'm born. Yeah,

37:10

that's all they want is to play. How

37:14

easy is the app to

37:16

navigate for, say, your mom

37:19

or grandmas to figure this out?

37:21

So we have worked very hard

37:23

to make it easy

37:26

to use when you create a group in

37:28

the way that you invite people to the

37:30

group. They just have to click a link,

37:32

they can download the app, and they get

37:34

automatically added to that group. And they're kind

37:37

of guided through a three-step onboarding flow. And

37:39

I think it's super easy. Also,

37:42

one other thing to mention, it is

37:45

a platform that we've already translated it

37:47

to Spanish. So if you're Spanish-speaking, you

37:49

can use it in

37:51

your native language as well. And

37:53

carefully, the app helps people better

37:56

organize this. But truthfully, people can

37:58

do this. without the app, right?

38:00

Like they can figure out how

38:02

to set up their networks and

38:04

groups using other technologies that they're

38:06

already familiar with. Yeah, I mean,

38:09

so I always, well, I'll even take

38:11

a step further. I'll say like, what

38:13

I always say is community-based care is

38:16

nothing new. It's tried and true. It's

38:18

a thing that people have been doing

38:20

for generations, right? People rely on their

38:22

community to help them with child care,

38:25

whether it's their grandmother, their, their neighbor,

38:27

whatever. So like the idea of setting

38:29

up a care circle, a babysitting co-op,

38:31

a child care co-op, all of those

38:34

concepts are things that

38:36

you don't need technology for. I think

38:39

the challenge today is that

38:41

we've lost our community. We've

38:43

also become so focused on

38:45

individualism and independence that we've

38:47

forgotten how to ask for

38:49

help. And so, and

38:52

also, I think oftentimes people

38:54

are really busy and having two

38:57

or three people in our network

38:59

that we rely on is not

39:01

enough. And so our hope and

39:03

our goal with Carefully is to

39:05

help people reconnect or connect

39:08

with their community and then expand

39:10

their connection to create this reliable

39:12

and robust network. Yes, they can

39:14

do it with other tools, but

39:17

with Carefully, it's really focused on

39:19

all of these goals of building

39:21

this reliable, robust, resilient safety net

39:23

that helps you connect. And so

39:25

there's a lot more thought about

39:27

like the purpose, but sure, just

39:29

do it. I mean, anything that's

39:31

going to help you survive, I'm

39:34

all for doing it. And

39:37

it's so funny that we're trying to

39:39

figure out how to get back to

39:41

those structures that we already did innately.

39:43

And I think having things like the

39:45

karmic care hours is really helpful in

39:48

those, you know, holding our hands towards

39:50

this, getting us to the

39:52

place that we're no longer familiar with, right? Like

39:54

this, these asking for help, because the

39:57

guilt comes in. I'm so

40:00

busy, but then I can't pick up

40:02

the kids. And so I think that's

40:04

brilliant. What are other examples

40:07

of ways to connect and engage

40:10

with a community that you see

40:12

working in the app? So

40:14

I mean, honestly, what

40:17

works the best is when there's somebody

40:19

that's coming in from the community and

40:21

starting their group. So they're kind of

40:24

building that up. So

40:26

when I first started

40:28

the app, it was really giving a platform

40:30

for people to connect with people they know

40:32

and trust in the community. So as a

40:34

working mom, I didn't know a lot of

40:37

people at school, but my son, social

40:39

butterfly, knew everybody in the school and

40:41

wanted to have play dates with all

40:43

of them. So I envisioned a way

40:46

for us to connect with other parents

40:48

in the school that he knew and

40:50

could have a lot of play dates.

40:52

What we see, which has

40:54

gotten worse since COVID, is that people

40:56

just don't have that community, right? And

40:59

so people are really, we know, isolated,

41:01

lonely, lacking a community.

41:04

And so we did see a lot of people coming

41:06

on to Carefully looking

41:08

for that community. And so we built

41:10

ways within Carefully, we call them hubs.

41:13

And those are public spaces that you can go into

41:16

where you can connect with other people. I

41:19

do think that that's a more challenging way to

41:23

meet families, right? Because you have to

41:25

really work at building trust and

41:28

building them in the app for the first

41:30

time. You're gonna have to really put work

41:32

in to connect with them, to build the

41:34

bond, to meet them first, to check them

41:36

out, to understand who they are before you're

41:38

gonna really know it. But just like with

41:40

any kind of online experience, you're gonna find

41:43

people that you connect with still will get

41:45

there with it, but it's still a harder

41:48

way to do it. But we see,

41:50

it's been great over the summer. We've

41:52

seen people starting co-ops for the summer

41:54

where they're helping each other out. It's

41:57

been great to see everybody starting. What

42:00

are some of the things that people

42:02

should pay attention more or what are

42:04

the not so successful interactions that you

42:06

had to deal with? So,

42:08

I will say right now we

42:10

don't yet have any kind of

42:12

background checked or IV verification. So

42:16

like I said, you really have to kind

42:18

of use your own vetting process. But I

42:20

think for us, it's very organic and not

42:22

totally focused on just like you meet your

42:24

parents from school, you use your own vetting.

42:26

We are working on adding that

42:28

in. I have mixed feelings about

42:30

it, but we've also gotten a lot of feedback

42:32

from different communities that that's something

42:35

that's important to them. And

42:37

I think that'll also like help improve sort

42:40

of the trust and safety within the

42:42

platform. But also we have

42:44

kept the app very organic. So the

42:46

people that are coming here are generally

42:48

people that are coming here that are

42:50

parents. And I kind

42:52

of see how people are engaging. And it's

42:54

pretty hard to come onto

42:56

the app because the communities you're inviting people

42:58

into your groups and things like that, other

43:01

than the public hubs that I was talking

43:03

about, it's kind of hard to be a

43:05

bad actor in the app and do a

43:07

lot, which I like other

43:10

than like the public hubs, which

43:13

I monitor and try to keep a handle

43:15

on. Yeah. And

43:18

from what I'm hearing is

43:20

that the app really shines

43:23

in trying to simplify this

43:25

process for communities that are

43:27

already kind of connecting and

43:29

have the similar needs. And

43:32

this is just a place to sort of

43:35

organize the structure for how

43:37

this happens and have that

43:40

easy connection just for this

43:42

purpose. How does the app

43:44

organize those groups? So

43:46

as a member of Carefully,

43:48

you can organize groups basically how you

43:50

want to. So you can come onto

43:52

the app, you can create as many

43:54

groups as you want, really. And

43:57

then you so you might have a group for school, a

43:59

group for your students. soccer, your kid's soccer team,

44:01

a group for your other kids, volleyball

44:04

teams, and then each of those groups,

44:06

everybody in those groups kind of combines

44:09

to create your trusted network. And

44:11

so you can create events

44:14

in the groups, or you can search

44:16

across the groups to organize the care.

44:19

And so those are like the two

44:21

kind of dynamics that work, but

44:23

the groups are sort of the

44:25

core experience where you can organize

44:27

events, and there's also chat kind

44:29

of base thing where you can post

44:31

pictures and just have general discussions in the

44:33

group. It's really like a social kind

44:36

of network, generally speaking, but

44:39

it's very focused on the family.

44:41

And also it's not about constant

44:43

engagement. Like we're not sending you

44:45

lots of notifications. It's about really

44:47

letting you have a space for

44:49

you and your group and for

44:51

you to organize the care. So

44:53

we integrate with your calendar. We

44:56

let you set your availability so we know

44:58

when you want to be available, so when

45:00

you show up on the search or when

45:02

you don't. Things

45:04

like that that are really focused up on

45:07

you being in control of your network.

45:09

They're focused on parents who are busy,

45:11

things like that to help the family

45:13

and not things that are focused on

45:15

distracting you or keeping you constantly engaged,

45:17

I would say. Is there

45:19

anything else that would be really helpful

45:21

for listeners to know as they're, again,

45:24

pregnant and trying to think ahead for

45:26

how to coordinate their

45:28

childcare? I think that Carefully

45:30

is a great place for them to start

45:32

organizing it because once they start on there

45:35

with their, bring their group onto

45:37

Carefully, it can grow with them. I think

45:39

what we're doing is changing how

45:41

people think about childcare. People are

45:44

so used to thinking about childcare

45:46

as transactional and we're like,

45:48

no, childcare is about community.

45:51

And it's hard for people to kind

45:54

of get over that sometimes.

45:56

A lot of people are like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.

45:59

But some people. like, wait, where are the

46:01

sitters? And I'm like, no, we're working

46:03

together to support each other. But it

46:05

makes sense when we think about where

46:08

the world is, when we hear the

46:10

Surgeon General talking about the epidemic of

46:12

loneliness and isolation, and we hear all

46:14

of the issues going on, it's because

46:16

we're everything is transactional in the world.

46:18

Social media is is not even about

46:20

connection. It's, you know, we have to

46:22

get back to our roots in order

46:25

to move forward, right? As you're talking

46:27

about childcare, my mind is doing so

46:29

much mirroring into the postpartum

46:31

space, and, you know,

46:34

family leave and unpaid

46:36

family leave. And the fact that

46:38

in terms of obstetric care, there

46:41

are immense amounts of perinatal

46:43

care deserts throughout the US

46:46

that could be fixed through

46:48

something more community and out

46:50

of hospital base, like midwifery

46:52

or freestanding birth centers. So,

46:55

and then you have the food

46:57

deserts, food accessibility deserts, and it's

46:59

just, we have so much lacking

47:02

within this country that has so

47:04

much, because it all comes

47:06

down to this disconnection of communities and

47:08

and change into a transactional way of

47:10

life. Yeah, exactly. And there, I think

47:13

there's that podcast, like, no one's coming

47:15

to save us, right? I mean, this

47:17

is my thing, like, yes, we should

47:19

have subsidies from the government. But even

47:21

if the government were more functional than

47:24

it is today, they still

47:27

they can't provide enough to

47:29

fix this problem. Like, yes,

47:31

it's a economic issue. There's

47:33

a problem with like how

47:35

much childcare providers need to make

47:37

and should make, and how much we

47:39

as families can afford to pay them.

47:41

So there's like a need for the

47:43

government to come in and kind of

47:46

make up that difference. I totally am

47:48

on board with that. But I also

47:50

don't think that they will ever be

47:52

able to do enough to make it

47:54

work, right? That's when the communities need

47:56

to come together and help each other

47:59

out. I always like to refer

48:01

to this book when we talk about some of

48:03

this stuff, the Care Manifesto. I don't know if

48:05

you've read this by the Care Collective. It

48:08

talks about how so many of our

48:10

issues in society are built. When we

48:12

talk about getting to the root cause,

48:14

it really is about the lack of

48:17

care in our society,

48:19

the lack of care for each other,

48:21

the lack of care for our environment,

48:24

the lack of care for our relatives,

48:26

for everything. It's

48:32

not about fixing the symptoms, which is

48:34

what subsidies and different things like that

48:36

do, but community is what does that.

48:39

Connecting with your community, caring about your

48:42

community, caring about people, caring about your

48:44

environment, that's like the root cause. You

48:46

know what I mean? If

48:49

we don't start doing that, we're never

48:51

going to actually fix the problems. Yes,

48:53

it is harder than just paying somebody

48:56

money to do something and being transactional,

48:58

but it also feels so much better once

49:00

you do it. It

49:03

brings back the humanity of it.

49:05

I can see you in your

49:08

full reality of good days, bad

49:10

days with super skills

49:13

and also tired and

49:16

with bouts of anxiety and

49:18

that full humanity that you

49:20

can only get when you're

49:22

actually establishing connections rather than

49:24

just dropping somebody off and

49:26

saying, hey, goodbye. Yeah,

49:29

it's holistic. It's holistic, right?

49:31

Because you start to trust that person and

49:34

then maybe you open up to them about

49:36

something that's upsetting you or stressing you out

49:38

and then it starts to get into your

49:40

mental health, which is part of the issue.

49:43

So who knows where that can lead, which

49:45

isn't the same when you're just like, oh,

49:47

dropping somebody off at daycare, picking them up.

49:49

Not that that's not important, but it's different,

49:52

right? It's a different side of things. Totally

49:55

agreed. I

49:57

can also see how this is good.

50:00

not just for companies and people building

50:02

more connections with the people in

50:05

their company, but also for freelancers. And

50:07

like, as you were talking, I was

50:09

saying, oh, doulas, doulas are always trying

50:11

to figure out how to find childcare

50:13

at the weirdest hours and last minute.

50:16

And so this is

50:18

a perfect way to help doulas also

50:21

connect in terms of that. And I'm

50:23

sure like doulas is just because that's

50:25

close to home, but. Oh, yeah. I

50:27

never even, I really never even thought

50:29

about that. You should only create a

50:31

doula, doula care circle within

50:33

your community. I'm going to get on that.

50:35

Yeah. Leslie, thank you

50:37

so very much for being on

50:39

the show today and all the

50:41

work you're doing and sharing your

50:43

information on how to build community

50:45

childcare, which yeah, let's get back

50:47

to the roots. Thank you

50:49

so much. This has been wonderful. I

50:52

really enjoyed it. That was Leslie

50:54

Burrell, who is a mother and

50:56

the creator of the Carefully app

50:58

and the website fixedchildcare.com. Leslie

51:01

is also one of 50 founders

51:03

selected into the Google for

51:06

Startup Latino Founders Fund, which

51:08

gives her support and funding

51:11

to focus on extending Carefully's

51:13

platform beyond consumers to support

51:16

large communities, institutions, and employers

51:18

with an inclusive and low

51:20

cost option for supporting all

51:23

parents and caregivers. You

51:25

can find Leslie on Instagram at

51:27

Carefully app and you can

51:29

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51:32

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51:55

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51:57

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51:59

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52:01

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52:04

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