0:00

my name is diane researching i'm

0:02

in my mid-30s i

0:04

am a filmmaker

0:06

and a photographer when

0:08

diane was twelve she learned, she had scoliosis

0:10

and she started seeing a chiropractor,

0:13

a couple of years later, they

0:15

would take x-rays and

0:17

light,

0:24

we can fix this we

0:26

can fix this doesn't

0:29

remember having back pain as a teenager

0:32

but the promise that a chiropractor

0:34

to six the curve and her spineless

0:36

alluring i mean the something's

0:39

off why not six said than

0:41

have seen chiropractors and eventually

0:44

in college she did start

0:46

having back pain so

0:48

excruciating accident excruciating accident bad

0:51

it seems the best way to treat it was to keep

0:53

up the visits with the chiropractor the

0:56

law say found they

0:58

pat on the upper back first

1:01

and so he now we here at product sometimes

1:07

they i just may have

1:09

how do you feel after you go to

1:11

the chiropractor a little sense

1:13

of euphoria

1:14

re you follow any near your

1:16

boss really hurts and

1:19

it is lighter color omega

1:22

home a do so to

1:24

has passed penis and the

1:27

time diane is thirty he's a pain

1:29

had become worse than

1:31

a potato farmers market as he

1:33

gets defenders notice i would be

1:36

home at about five minutes for so the house

1:39

the chiropractors diane saw kept

1:41

telling her the same thing is this slight

1:44

curve in your spine sweet

1:46

and six year or so

1:48

slay and work

1:52

but i've been seeing as how hard to like if

1:54

it's sideways and it's says already

1:57

thirty wondering if the pain was from that

1:59

kerr they kept showing her

2:02

or

2:02

if the real problem was the

2:05

treatment sheath and getting

2:06

well he said i've been seeing it has

2:08

after

2:09

when you're it and , office

2:11

the gotten worse when they were telling

2:14

me it would get better so that was

2:16

a nice as i say this is ah

2:19

no ah thorn on here but this isn't working

2:21

for me anymore

2:23

why didn't the chiropractor health diane

2:27

how can someone be treated for jackasses

2:29

without ever since ever since release

2:32

unfortunately dane's trouble with

2:34

back pain isn't you need one

2:37

of the biggest reason people go to the dot

2:39

there

2:40

one reason many of us suffer with that

2:42

been for so long as because people

2:44

pray on our desperation and

2:47

, the complexity of that been to

2:49

sell as bad treatment and

2:52

oxygen

2:53

hunter and funny had audio collective

2:55

this is bodies in this

2:58

episode if

3:01

you're into it right after that

3:12

if you love body says and want to support

3:14

our show consider becoming it's had member

3:17

as a member you'll get to experience the

3:19

ideas you love from chad in

3:21

a new way like getting access

3:23

to live conversations with pet speakers

3:26

to become a ted member search ted

3:28

dot com backslash membership

3:30

that's ted dot com backslash

3:33

membership that's your alexis

3:35

king and is a sports medicine doctor

3:37

and says i a trust at the university

3:40

of pennsylvania you might not

3:42

have heard of us has i trust before

3:44

they're also called sissoko medicine and

3:46

rehabilitation physicians

3:48

somebody same principles that

3:50

i relate to my athletes as regards to

3:52

rest recovery it's rehabilitation

3:55

i use those same goes feeling

3:57

with any patient be days a teenager

3:59

the war of my oldest patient whose ninety seven years

4:02

old i love hearing that there's a ninety seven year

4:04

old seeing a sports medicine physicists as

4:06

she can beat out a lot of my younger patients

4:10

that you're doing it is also an expert on the back

4:13

which is an amazing structure

4:16

it's why we can stand up straight cooler

4:18

heads up then over to put on our shoes

4:21

which up to grab an apples from apples tree

4:24

go swing dancing or take

4:26

the dog for a walk kind

4:29

of like that home they saw

4:31

a whole muscular skeletal system

4:34

all birds and limbs originate from

4:36

the spine so the cervical

4:38

thoracic spine we have our arms i come

4:41

from that area under lovastatin

4:43

are like some from the lumbar and

4:45

cycle area until the spine

4:47

is where it all kind of comes together even

4:49

if you think a plumber neurologic standpoint

4:52

we have the brain the brain stem the spinal

4:54

cord and from the spinal cord all or

4:56

a nurse go out to the to the rest of

4:58

the bodies with and means is that whenever

5:00

there is a problem the baggage

5:02

and is that the legs you can get to a satire

5:05

up in the cervical spine and the arms

5:07

it affects everything we do from assumptions

5:10

and

5:11

the back is made us as many connected

5:13

pieces first there are

5:16

there vertebrates the phones

5:18

that runs from your neck here's hilburn

5:21

vertebrae are stacked on top of each

5:23

other and connected by showing some

5:25

ligaments tendons

5:27

connects much to the vertebrae and

5:31

, gather the vertebrae makes

5:33

up the spinal column which protects

5:35

her spinal cord cord carry

5:37

signals some your brain to nerves

5:39

throughout your body there

5:41

are also discs between your vertebrae

5:43

that provide christians and help absorb

5:46

and distribute pressure across your spine

5:49

so all these pieces bones

5:52

joins ligaments tendons muscles

5:54

and nerves work together work

5:56

together your backs do every

5:58

then it does for years

6:00

that your back isn't holding you up

6:02

all on it's own a lot

6:04

of that work is done

6:06

the your poor

6:08

the core is composed of our

6:10

abdominal muscles is composed of

6:12

are low back muscles as

6:14

composed of our hips and are glutes as well

6:17

it is the the support

6:19

system for the lower part

6:21

of our body and the reason why it's important

6:24

is because the muscles in in the core

6:26

take pressure off their the rest of the spine

6:29

every day we put all kinds of pressure

6:31

on our backs when we walk

6:33

stand carrier groceries

6:35

this furniture and

6:38

especially when we sit

6:41

when you sit in you are lean

6:43

forward and bad posture you're putting

6:45

about one point eight times

6:48

the pressure relative to standing

6:51

on your back so that sitting is a hazard

6:53

and for it the great majority

6:55

of our history as a species

6:58

we've been standing walking

7:00

running we've been up on our feet and so you can

7:02

make an argument that we've evolved into

7:05

in the are designed to be

7:07

on our feet and be active

7:09

bottom line the back is a complex

7:11

structure and we put pressure on

7:14

it constantly so

7:16

a lot can go wrong

7:18

we have the muscle skeletal system

7:21

we also have the nervous system that's involves

7:23

this as opposed to something like

7:25

the the ankle where if you

7:28

a pain and one particular part of the ankle

7:30

there's only so many things that can be going on there

7:33

maybe you pulled a muscle playing basketball

7:35

or listing a heavy box dot

7:37

eating and says the strains are a com

7:40

and the dot pain or ,

7:42

there's an issue with your joints like arthritis

7:45

or your long commute is putting pressure

7:47

on a nerve causing inflammation or

7:49

it as or it with one of your discs

7:52

back pain he can come from so many different

7:54

places and can be exacerbated

7:56

by many different factors even

7:58

strength the finding the

8:01

roots back pain is complex

8:05

that complexity and how

8:08

frustrating back pain can be means

8:10

that it's easy to be enticed

8:13

by all the treatment south

8:15

the aspiration is a bad thing

8:18

jacobson rain and is a journalist

8:21

and the author as crooked outwitting

8:23

the back pain industry and getting on the road

8:25

to recovery herbert been

8:28

when he was sixteen and she fell

8:30

off a horse

8:31

and after that things were a

8:33

loafer gauge going forward

8:36

said his name that she severe and so

8:38

around the time i was pregnant

8:40

and my first child amends and

8:42

started to know who has that same really

8:44

was

8:45

kapur started looking for help she

8:48

ended up going through a pretty common checklist

8:50

of treatments like

8:52

diane one of first dogs

8:55

was a chiropractor around

8:57

thirty five million americans says that a

8:59

chiropractor every year in

9:01

one survey found that the majority of americans

9:04

think chiropractors are chiropractors sensitive a

9:06

treating back and neck but

9:08

chiropractic care is c santa completely

9:11

bogus premise said back pain

9:14

and all diseases are due

9:16

to so called for cheap roles subluxations

9:19

basically miss aligned the debris chiropractors

9:22

authentic x rays to find these subtle

9:24

patients and then do it

9:27

justice for manipulations

9:31

i have the it please sit

9:33

, various levels very simple

9:35

climbing on top of me to me

9:38

about does not have any in long

9:41

term as long term be dangerous

9:44

there are people have suffered vasco

9:46

strokes after fantastic

9:49

treatment

9:50

there is no evidence that the subluxations

9:53

chiropractors target cause disease

9:56

in fact it's there's not even any

9:58

evidence says so called subluxations

10:00

are real here's the deal

10:03

it's hard to research nonsense

10:06

and we also know that think touched and

10:08

cared for us can make you feel better

10:10

temporarily

10:11

the researchers has studied chiropractic

10:14

manipulation wonder if you look at forty

10:16

five studies and found no evidence

10:18

to support chiropractic manipulation

10:20

for treatment as any medical condition even

10:23

the general chiropractic council of

10:25

the united kingdom says that subluxations

10:29

are not supported by any clinical

10:31

research evidence that would allow claims

10:34

to be made that it is the cause

10:36

of disease

10:38

maybe that's pretty

10:40

damn it

10:41

the problem has been sad

10:44

chiropractors wanna see

10:46

you have multiple times a week with

10:48

just shoes and

10:49

that immensely will cause lag

10:52

to the in the ligaments and more

10:54

instability and you have simply

10:56

where she will not enter so

10:58

yeah essential pretty boy

11:01

when you have you just need to get

11:03

all to like accurate he stared

11:05

at any moment for other again

11:07

eventually catherine went to a medical

11:10

doctor for her back pain she says

11:12

the doctor offered are some opioids

11:14

and ordered an m r i

11:16

my door and apparently his

11:18

thought was mares probably

11:20

something structurally wrong in

11:22

there and we should find out what that

11:25

is so effectively

11:27

next to her and

11:29

i was getting richer saw it was playing

11:32

sack over j f k

11:34

there were so many people in

11:36

that house

11:38

after the or my results ring after

11:40

didn't feel like she i did guidance on what they

11:42

meant and what she should sue for

11:44

her back pain so when a bit

11:46

later she saw an ad for ad minimally

11:49

invasive laser spine surgery

11:51

at surgery at in florida

11:53

her attention

11:55

this particular to so many african

11:58

americans in it with

11:59

a patient's name and aren't

12:02

how so what's a very difficult

12:04

to track people that wow they

12:07

had all just come

12:08

right come out there and their allies

12:11

well you know i feel like i'm

12:13

, very well and have played played

12:16

this is awesome okay so

12:18

down there are people from

12:20

all over the country from all over the girls

12:22

were all going to her spine surgery there

12:25

there are clinics make us all over the country

12:27

the advertising magazine said on television

12:30

and they promised the kind of quick easy

12:33

six catherine was yearning for

12:36

after all the sailed treatments

12:38

she had tried catherine was

12:40

desperate so she

12:42

went for it the surgery

12:44

removed part of her lumbar vertebrae and

12:47

though there are times when surgery might

12:50

be a good treatment option this procedure

12:52

it did not help

12:53

the friend

12:55

i am now missing a huge

12:57

chunk of phone and i

12:59

am pretty unstable some

13:01

more than learn to the a bad thing the

13:04

more she realized every

13:06

step of her treatment process

13:08

had been a mistake and

13:11

she interviewed all lot of people

13:13

who went through similar experiences

13:16

hire actors

13:18

opioids am our eyes

13:20

and surgery

13:22

it became more and more hobbies to me

13:25

that people were being sold

13:27

a bill of goods they didn't understand

13:30

what what they were being offered or the context

13:32

in which is being offered

13:34

money is part of the problem we

13:36

sent around a hundred and thirty five billion

13:39

treating go back and neck pain and twenty

13:41

six seen alone services

13:43

big industry some doctors

13:45

and hospitals have a financial incentives

13:48

to after i'm our eyes or to do

13:50

expenses final injections or even

13:52

to perform surgery when

13:55

there is so much opportunity for process

13:57

it can be hard to figure out what is

13:59

the weekly care

14:03

we have this kind of backwards

14:05

approach to to medicine in

14:07

this , and our current system is incentivized

14:10

to do more more more whether or not

14:12

that particular treatment can can be beneficial

14:15

but even know that even know the waiters

14:18

and recent all work that change it doesn't

14:20

mean that i have to succumb to the pressure that

14:22

is

14:23

after the break when it is an

14:25

m r i or surgery actually called

14:27

for and what does a good

14:29

as evidence based treatment for

14:31

back pain look like

14:35

imagine

14:37

you saw the doctor's office with stabbing

14:39

been and your lower back and

14:42

your doctor says let's do an m r i

14:44

a or an x ray you might think wow

14:47

that sounds like sounds great way to figure out exactly

14:50

where the problem is that's

14:53

common misconception in

14:55

reality imaging usually

14:57

that lead to a back pain diagnosis

15:01

it is a snapshot in time

15:04

of what may be going on structurally

15:06

it doesn't tell us how everything fits together mechanically

15:08

it's it doesn't tell us about your state of mine as

15:10

regards your body

15:11

did you start eating in this is

15:14

i trust again

15:14

when i'm giving lectures two different

15:17

groups often start with an

15:19

image of a herniate disk and the

15:21

spine and as the audience what do you

15:23

do for the what would you do for the space and zero

15:25

some people say therapies of as a service

15:27

and say injections and what

15:29

i presented them as at this particular patient

15:32

when i saw them had no pain whatsoever and

15:34

so on the bottom line

15:36

is that there's not a direct

15:38

relationship between the findings

15:41

on findings imaging and the symptoms

15:44

that that person may experience

15:46

as may guard said to back pain

15:48

so you can be an old lot

15:51

of back pain and get an m r i

15:53

showing a pristine spine nothing

15:55

out of the ordinary and

15:57

civil versus true if true if

16:00

the hundred people on the street between the ages

16:02

of forty and fifty who have no

16:04

back pain and convince them to get a

16:06

free m r i we find

16:08

that a half of them have a bulging

16:10

disks and sixty eight percent

16:13

has disks degeneration another

16:16

the normality

16:17

and i spend a lot of time with my patients

16:20

trying to to break that down let's

16:22

say someone is seventy years old station

16:24

will come see me with on doc my back

16:26

is is really messed up and i say well

16:28

he really what you have a seventy year old back and

16:31

he you contrast this with for example

16:33

an x ray of the of money

16:35

while there's only one knee joint so there's only so

16:37

much you can set up with the back there's

16:39

like five different segments and so

16:42

there's five different areas they can have an abnormality

16:45

so the so the report also looks worse

16:47

than what's actually going on

16:49

any really harmful because we can make

16:51

people feel like their spine is damaged

16:54

beyond repair don't

16:56

you in seven a m r i make sense

16:58

if you have back pain and what he calls

17:00

a red

17:02

what is this symptoms are due to a

17:04

trauma could be a fall

17:06

could be a car accident on the

17:08

other one a sudden loss about bladder

17:11

which could be indicative of a nerve

17:13

or a spinal cord type problem

17:15

so i would also be

17:17

concerned with someone has sudden

17:19

onset weakness that's the

17:21

concern at there's a more serious nerve

17:24

or spinal cord problem going on the

17:27

other symptoms that have a look out for our

17:29

fever and feeling ill

17:32

associated with the back pain because that

17:34

to be a sign of intersection

17:36

going on in the back and

17:38

, the last symptom that i

17:40

will look out for would be night

17:43

pain night is just

17:45

dull and does get better sometimes

17:48

i could be due to a tumor

17:50

you have any of those red flags

17:52

and am i could help rule out of serious

17:54

problem is not

17:57

good an opinion on whether an m i

17:59

could help you you often

18:01

don't need one and imaging

18:03

has been associated with worse

18:06

patient outcomes and unnecessary

18:09

surgeries

18:10

like imaging back surgery

18:12

might seem really powerful or

18:15

real solution for real

18:17

pain

18:18

that is catherine learned it's not

18:21

a guaranteed six dr

18:23

king and says surgery can help

18:26

in theory specific cases like

18:28

a fracture a spinal cord injury

18:31

or when there's a clear structural

18:33

problem causing back pain for

18:36

example example disc

18:38

were part of a disc squeezes out

18:40

and puts pressure on the spine

18:42

and nerves

18:44

if it a disc problem the surgeon will go in and take

18:46

our part of the disks that may be irritating

18:49

that nerve and now you're relieved that

18:51

structural problem now you've relieved to compress

18:53

on the nerves and ostensibly can

18:55

help with a pain now , as opposed

18:58

to someone who has multilevel

19:00

daejeon of changes rights and

19:03

so unfortunately we

19:05

don't have we a have

19:07

replacement and so he just

19:09

no way to get rid of all that degeneration

19:12

researchers analyzed studies on

19:14

ten of the most common elective

19:17

orthopedic surgery including

19:19

lumbar spine fusion for degenerative

19:21

disc disease they found

19:23

this surgery was not more effective

19:26

send non surgery treatment and

19:29

spine surgery has far more

19:31

complications than non

19:33

surgical therapies

19:34

there are very sound

19:37

reasons for spinal fusion to be performance

19:40

that being said students are are done

19:42

for less than ever

19:45

say medically appropriate reasons and you can

19:47

look at this by looking at the map of

19:49

the rate of lumbar fusion

19:52

across the united states

19:54

and by region you see the rates are

19:56

while wildly different from one region

19:58

to the others and it's not

20:00

that the path of physiology and one

20:02

geographical area united states is that much different

20:05

than the other is that there may

20:07

be different incentives are different culture

20:09

practices is better in different regions

20:11

that that lead to this

20:13

generally surgery should be thought of

20:15

as a last

20:16

the or it

20:17

the jury is not reversible and

20:19

there's never a one hundred percent guarantee

20:22

it will get rid of backpack

20:24

i don't counting my patients as regards

20:26

to surgery and nurse some that i do we

20:28

refer to surgery i am explaining

20:31

the cinema said look you have a very

20:33

clear structural problem this

20:35

is something that i expect surgery to help

20:37

with but there is a chance

20:40

that you get surgery and you're not

20:42

better and so the question asked them

20:44

if he that surgeon for their see what better how

20:46

would you feel as a patient's how he

20:48

said you know what i would say i've done everything

20:51

to try to get better and indices

20:53

of kind of where i'm at that if the patient

20:56

has some hesitation about that then we may

20:58

talk about other non surgical treatment that we

21:00

may want to consider prior to

21:02

going the route of surgery

21:04

so many things really

21:06

it her house sit there is no quick six

21:08

for back pains especially that's chronic

21:11

one of the big harm said these

21:13

quick fixes is they compete

21:15

with said the piece that can work

21:18

so what's the first step towards treating

21:21

that when a patient shows

21:23

up in doctor think and sauces he rules

21:25

out those red flags we talked about then

21:28

he started figuring out what could

21:31

be causing detained

21:33

the most important step

21:36

in evaluating back pain is

21:38

attentive listening attentive listening how

21:40

longest symptoms have been going on what

21:43

factors exacerbate or alleviate

21:45

the symptoms just the kind of give a brief it

21:47

a example disc related pain is worse

21:49

had bending forward and and better

21:51

with extending backward what treatments

21:54

haven't worked or not work up to that point

21:56

and also how's affecting a particular

21:59

patient's overall like a lifestyle

22:01

now as you progress from that subjective

22:03

history then you're able to hone

22:05

in a little bit more specifically

22:07

on what may be going on through the physical exam

22:10

and , time someone to seeing

22:12

a physician for back pain pain

22:15

should have a very thorough physical exam perform

22:18

and so and with queen taking

22:20

and with history and doing a thorough

22:22

of his oh exam for the most part you're

22:24

actually able to have a good sense of what's

22:26

to what may be going on

22:28

the good news is a lot of acute

22:30

that pain pain that has lasted less

22:33

than a month's may actually go away

22:35

on itself chronic

22:37

pain that's been around for three months

22:39

or more often requires

22:41

some treatment dr king

22:43

and use as an exercise program

22:45

or physical therapy to treat both types

22:48

of pain

22:49

because we are trying to address

22:51

the mechanical causes of the other back pain

22:54

so as is chronic i'm doing all those

22:56

myself abnormal dynamics

22:58

and and mechanics if it's a

23:00

cute what i'm doing is actually

23:03

not just treating the pain the pain current state

23:05

but also working on prevention because

23:07

anywhere from thirty to sixty percent

23:10

of those with a cube that pain will experience

23:12

a recurrence within one year and so i'm

23:14

not disputing in the present time i'm

23:16

also treating as a preventative

23:18

measure for these patients

23:20

if you're in a good physical therapy program

23:23

you go into the office and

23:25

get a home exercise program so that you're doing

23:27

the recommended exercises regularly

23:30

this is like learning to play the piano

23:32

is the only practice once a week you probably

23:34

are going to make progress in in fact

23:37

as good physical therapy program will ask

23:39

you to come back in for some follow

23:42

when i'm a prescribing therapy

23:44

for one my patience i'm very

23:46

often sending them to specific office

23:48

and even that often

23:51

sitting them to see if specific physical therapists

23:53

and often cysts even talking

23:55

directly with the physical therapist

23:57

while you may have heard to rest if you're in

23:59

in that's generally bad

24:02

advice for most kinds of therapy

24:04

when you don't do activity

24:07

the muscle shorten the joints can get

24:09

stiff and and that and of itself can

24:11

can cause pain and so i'm in

24:14

encouraging armor piece of a bad thing

24:16

to do something and sometimes

24:18

as a job there is some patients them as they

24:20

won't okay d c can do anything

24:22

to do watch tv yes he was he the okay i

24:25

once you doing it's every commercial break now

24:27

take a few steps and sit back down

24:29

there are some situations where a doctor my

24:31

recommend a steroid injections and your

24:33

back that can reduce inflammation

24:36

around dinners and hopefully ease

24:38

the pain enough fetus start physical therapy

24:41

these types of injections not usually not usually

24:43

their best as part of a multi disciplinary

24:46

therapy

24:47

the treating the chemical aspect of

24:50

so if you're treating a structural

24:53

and or mechanical problem with just a chemical

24:55

treatment the you not addressing the issue

24:57

so many of us will experience

24:59

back pain sara or

25:04

dr julian says first maintain

25:07

a healthy weight

25:08

the that doesn't get any stronger

25:11

when you gamely and so

25:13

are many patients and for whom the only treatment

25:15

as been weight loss and they've had significant reduction

25:18

or paid

25:19

second to strengthen your core

25:21

step away from your desk can do some crunches

25:24

glute bridges or a plank

25:27

if unable to maintain that they're strong

25:29

core as i'm going about my daily

25:31

day like to get bags picking up my kids

25:34

doing yard work i'm , having to

25:36

to ask my back to do more than

25:38

what is meant to do side

25:42

you're my romanian dangerous as business professor

25:45

a are made by you mentioned kids i have

25:47

to

25:48

is there eighteen now but there's like

25:50

no greater core work then carrying

25:52

two three year old like three year old tahoe

25:54

money each of us know what yeah

25:57

without a question i have a two and a half

25:59

you old and and a newborn relatively they

26:02

require widely to two and half year old

26:04

a lot of carrying a lot of cool work and i

26:06

can tell the difference when i'm working on the core

26:09

between my billie the gotta carry my son

26:11

with one hand and whenever

26:13

it's a lover of a struggle

26:16

and finally it's important to remember

26:18

that your emotional health that your experience

26:21

pain

26:21

depression anxiety and

26:24

stress or all linked to changes

26:26

in the brain in neurotransmitters

26:28

and in hormones that can and

26:30

five a in , by

26:32

practicing good healthy mental

26:34

health habits that i'll look also helps

26:37

with my billie to be able

26:39

to prevent that same but

26:41

even when the back pain hammers to not to

26:43

testifies it and put in that's appropriate

26:45

context and be able to ride

26:47

it out and then treated to live

26:50

another day

26:51

so show your back some love if

26:54

you're at a desk all day pay attention to

26:56

your posture try to get up and stand

26:58

or stretch every hour take a walk

27:01

if you're looking for a way to start moving for

27:03

your back consider some tai chi

27:06

which is the practice of slow gentle

27:09

meditative

27:10

mint

27:11

invite away diane who

27:14

we met at the beginning of the episode is

27:16

in physical therapy now

27:18

he said so far it's

27:20

made her pain much better

27:37

how did you buy that had audio

27:40

left us is hosted individuals' names

27:43

so was produced

27:45

by head into that are needed a

27:48

, includes soon upon

27:50

sea rescue got account to self

27:53

and then sank sammy case

27:55

roxanne high last will hennessy

27:58

alex season

27:59

daniela followers

28:01

murray kids

28:03

nicole eating a julia,

28:05

ross, annie odell valentina

28:08

beanie and a ceiling

28:10

maiasaura

28:13

ahmad, sebewaing

28:14

is our sound designer and

28:16

mix engineer this

28:18

episode was written and produced by camille

28:20

peterson and

28:20

edited sarah nick's fact-checking

28:23

by the ted fact-checking team that's

28:26

it for this season of body stuff thanks

28:28

for listening and take care