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1:03

was about making bad choices and irresponsibility.

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But after hearing the story of a woman in

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1:14

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irresponsibility, as she discovered

1:18

how difficult it is for people to maintain

1:21

their sobriety in the long run. After

1:23

watching too many women get sober only

1:26

to relapse and die within days or

1:28

weeks of completing a recovery program,

1:31

Kelly knew she could use her business skills

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1:38

with the mission of ending the addiction relapse

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cycle. Unshattered

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employees women in recovery, training

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them to make premium handbags

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1:55

and growth. It demonstrates

1:58

a smarter way of treating addiction that

2:00

moves away from criminalization and

2:02

keeps people out of the system.

2:06

Kelly Lingard is one of the many entrepreneurs

2:08

partnering with Stand Together to drive

2:10

solutions and education, healthcare,

2:13

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2:16

learn more about addiction and the War on Drugs,

2:19

listen to the War on Drugs podcast on

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2:30

down check.

2:36

I know it's crazy this morning, it's

2:39

very ominous.

2:42

Everybody see you. We're

2:44

back tat that

2:48

sounds good. Um,

2:54

I think we're good. What time do you have to be there? According

2:57

to a website, they say that start

2:59

checking you in it. Eight fifteen,

3:03

a few weeks ago, Kelsey and I flew

3:05

down to Florida. We met Judge

3:07

Scott Cupp in a parking lot of a

3:09

public supermarket. Turns

3:12

out Judge Cupp had something he

3:14

really wanted to talk to Leo about in

3:16

person. When we first

3:18

found out that he had arranged a visit with Leo

3:21

and why, it just felt like we

3:23

should be there too, So we

3:25

decided to make the drive with him through

3:28

the dense morning fog of Bone Valley

3:30

to Hardy Correctional Institution. I

3:34

don't know, I don't know how I feel. Yeah, I was gonna say,

3:36

what are your expectations, Chris? That's

3:39

why I want to spend a lot of time. I

3:41

haven't seen him in eight years,

3:44

more than a decade ago. Scott Cupp

3:47

was Leo's defense lawyer at

3:49

that time. The Cup would occasionally make

3:51

the drive to Hardy to speak with Leo. It

3:54

began as routine attorney visits, but

3:56

eventually it got to the point that Cupp would

3:58

make the drive to Hardy even when he didn't

4:00

have any updates on Leo's case. He'd

4:03

just go to talk to Leo. Officially,

4:06

he was going in as a lawyer, but

4:08

really he was visiting as a friend.

4:11

But in twenty fourteen, Cup

4:14

was appointed to the bench by Florida Governor

4:16

Rick Scott. An appointment

4:18

like that is a tremendous honor, the

4:21

opportunity of a lifetime, really, but

4:24

Cupp also knew that taking the bench

4:26

would mean that he'd no longer be able

4:28

to represent Leo, and as

4:30

a judge if he continued to visit

4:32

an inmate, that would raise eyebrows

4:35

within the legal community. Last

4:37

time, I was going to ask

4:39

him that because I know I went to see him

4:43

right after I found out I was gonna take

4:45

the bench. I saw

4:47

him before that to kind of get his blessing,

4:49

and typical Leo, he just chewed

4:52

my ass

4:56

like his call is from

4:58

a correction facility and his subject

5:00

to monitoring and recording. I

5:03

asked Leo about that last conversation they

5:05

had eight years ago. The last

5:07

time Leo had seen his former defense attorney,

5:10

his close friend. He

5:12

was. He was telling me that, you know, the governor

5:14

was appointing him to the bench and

5:17

that would mean, you know, certain

5:19

things for us. The biggest thing was that

5:21

he would no longer be able to represent me, and he

5:24

didn't want to make that decision by

5:26

himself. And I was blown away

5:28

that he was, you know, giving

5:31

me the opportunity to sound

5:33

up on it. And I told him then, I said to Scott,

5:36

said, I cannot allow any

5:39

more sacrifice than to this case, you

5:41

know, and I'm definitely not going to

5:44

ask you to sacrifice your

5:46

career for it. And we

5:49

were in tears, and he had said then he said, I knew

5:51

you were going to say something like I thought us and I am super

5:53

proud of you that there's absolutely nothing

5:55

to discuss in this that you will take

5:58

that appointment and you will go out and be the best damn

6:00

judge that they have. But

6:02

you know, that was my comforten on

6:05

that I know somebody, I personally know

6:07

somebody that works in the judicial system that

6:09

its upright, has integrity, is

6:12

honest, and is doing the

6:14

right thing. That's who you want in those positions,

6:16

That's who we need protecting

6:19

society. Typical Leo,

6:21

he just doesn't think of himself

6:24

first. That's what's got him through this. He thinks

6:26

of everybody else and

6:29

those aren't just words. That's where he lives. So

6:32

with Leo's blessing, Scott Cupp

6:34

became Judge Scott Cup in twenty

6:36

fourteen taking the bench.

6:38

That was difficult because I knew

6:40

at that point I'm done. I

6:43

can't I can't do anything to help him.

6:45

But again I was wrong about that because then I met you.

6:48

Since that day in twenty fourteen, Judge

6:51

Cupp hasn't seen Leo and it hasn't

6:53

been easy. He says, it felt

6:55

like he was abandoning him. We

6:58

stay in touch sporadically, you

7:01

know, it's kind of like a distant relative,

7:04

you know, cards at the holidays. But

7:10

you know, now, with what I've decided

7:12

to do, it's it's time for

7:14

me to go see him. So the three

7:17

of us pile in the car and start

7:19

heading to Hardy. The

7:21

expected drive time is one hour and

7:23

twenty six minutes. Do you really

7:25

need that really? I

7:27

don't think so. Yeah,

7:30

yeah, it's thirty one sixty four seventeen.

7:33

All right, I get turned bangs. Sitting

7:36

judges aren't prohibited from visiting prison

7:38

in mats In, Florida, but it's unusual.

7:41

Judge Cupp has sentenced defendants who

7:43

are now serving time at Hardy, and

7:46

as an assistant state attorney, he prosecuted

7:49

men who have ended up in this prison. So

7:51

he's a little wary of being recognized during

7:53

his visit with Leo. And this time

7:55

he won't be off in a private attorney room. He'll

7:58

be sitting in the visitation room with

8:00

all the other friends and family visiting their

8:02

incarcerated loved ones. So,

8:05

Scott, you said you've only ever

8:09

been in a prison for an

8:11

attorney visit. Yeah,

8:14

yeah, never been in

8:17

as a private citizen. How

8:20

are you feeling about that? Wow?

8:24

I don't know. I

8:27

really don't know. I've been thinking about it obviously a lot,

8:33

just a lot of mixed feelings. I'm looking forward

8:36

to seeing him. It makes me sad

8:40

to see him

8:42

still like this. It

8:46

should be just two guys getting together chatting,

8:50

right, But it's one guy

8:54

and then the other guy's a prisoner. Yeah.

8:57

Yeah, I

9:01

almost was thinking about But

9:03

then that would be like really admitting

9:05

that I'm old and see you now. I

9:08

was gonna put it on a piece of a

9:10

little piece of paper, just a little

9:12

bullet points. I remember to ask him

9:14

about that. I remember to talk about that. I remember to talk

9:16

about this. But then I went, now, you can't do that.

9:19

That's what I do when I go there. I

9:22

mean, I don't have to make notes about

9:24

the the

9:27

main reason I'm seeing him. It's just all these

9:29

other things, you know, these random

9:31

things. And I remember to tell him about this, remember

9:33

to tell him about that. I asked him

9:35

about this. You

9:38

want to you want to run through your list with us,

9:41

to commit it to memory, tell us what

9:43

well did. It's just a bunch of random

9:45

stuff. One of the things I definitely want

9:48

to talk to him about is the

9:51

drawing he made for me. Yeah,

9:53

can you can you talk about that drawing? Chrissie.

9:57

I think she sent me a

10:00

text picture of

10:03

this drawing that

10:05

she said Leo had done in prison. And

10:07

it's of a lion and it's

10:09

black. I don't know if it's charcoal or pencil

10:12

or whatever it is, but anyhow, it's just it

10:16

was just really fantastic. And

10:19

she said that Leo had done it, and I just

10:21

said, if he ever

10:23

does anymore, tell

10:26

him, you know, I would really be interested

10:28

in purchasing one. And several

10:31

weeks later I had been out

10:33

of the office in the morning, I think I came

10:36

back and here's this

10:38

framed picture,

10:42

the drawing of the lion, and

10:45

it was laying on Microdenzi

10:47

write it in my chambers and Chrissy

10:50

had apparently dropped it off with

10:52

a letter accompanying it from Leo,

10:56

and I was just I

10:58

had to close my tourtary, you know, pull

11:01

myself back together. It was it's

11:03

unbelievable. And then the letter that went

11:07

with it, it was unsigned, and that,

11:09

you know, it said at the end one day that you

11:11

know, when we could get together,

11:14

then he'll sign it. Leo

11:20

did a drawing for me too. It's

11:22

a lighthouse looking out over a rocky

11:24

shore and rough water. I

11:27

keep it framed in my office when

11:29

I'm sitting at my desk, it's always in view.

11:35

Must have been him nervous, right, I

11:39

don't know why.

11:42

It's just kind of I don't know, it's

11:44

just like a kick off again, a

11:46

lot of changes coming. Yeah,

11:50

but he's worth it's

11:53

a question about it. So

12:02

we're basically here, gator,

12:05

yeah, baby, So that means

12:07

as a mama. Someone seems

12:12

like less cars than usual. Look good, only

12:15

a few minutes after nine and hopefully

12:17

there's not really a line my

12:23

usual spot. Wow, what

12:30

do we do now? Just take a

12:32

walk up to the Hardy Sei main unit. So

12:35

you just want to bring your driver's license? Yeah? I

12:37

got my driver's license and funny buck, didn't

12:40

you do it? Everybody?

12:48

Yeah? Seeing a bed

12:53

Kelsey and I watch as Judge Cupp walks

12:55

toward the entrance. He's dressed

12:57

casually, jeans and a sweatshirt.

13:01

I wish, I wish

13:03

we could see Leo. It

13:09

sucks being here lash so close.

13:12

It's really actually hard thinking

13:14

about this. It's

13:18

been over a year since I last saw Leo.

13:21

That was when I went to see his band, The Watchers

13:23

playing that concert. That

13:25

was a really special visit because instead of

13:27

just sitting in a small room together, Leo

13:30

was able to give me a tour of the war room

13:32

where he prayed for Jeremy Scott. Apparently,

13:36

as a member of the media, I shouldn't

13:38

have been permitted to do that visit, and

13:40

even though I'd been approved, I'm now under

13:43

review with the Florida Department of Corrections.

13:45

So for now, Kelsey and I

13:48

aren't allowed to visit with Leo. Visiting

13:51

hours at Hardy run from nine am to

13:53

three pm, and Judge Cupp was planning

13:55

on spending that whole time with Leo. So

13:58

Kelsey and I walked back to the car are um

14:03

anything you want to say about

14:06

this experience? Droppings got off

14:09

about today? WHOA

14:11

what the fuck? Those

14:24

things are about fifty yards away and they're that loud,

14:27

big big cranes, the ones with the

14:29

red heads. I don't know what. I don't know what those ones

14:31

are called. M h

14:37

all right, Oh my gosh, I bet I

14:40

wonder if they're like having their

14:42

moment in there right now. I don't

14:44

know. Okay, let's go. This

14:50

is okay.

14:54

We had a few hours to kill, so we

14:56

drove around Bone Valley, grab lunch,

14:58

and headed back to Hardy to pick up Judge Cup.

15:01

We were standing in front of the main gate, looking

15:03

toward the visitor pavilion. We

15:05

watched as other inmates visited with

15:07

their loved ones. One

15:09

family was playing a game of cornhole. A

15:12

couple affectionately wrapped their arms around

15:14

each other. Two young kids

15:17

ran through the pavilion, darting around tables,

15:19

and chasing each other laughing. These

15:22

moments felt so intimate, like something

15:25

we shouldn't be watching. But

15:27

there we were on the outside, seeing

15:29

it all through multiple layers of chain link

15:32

fence and barbed wire. So

15:35

we were hoping maybe Leo can find someplace

15:37

to wave to us, but I

15:42

don't know either. While we were

15:44

standing there, a prison official approached

15:47

us. Yeah, hello,

15:51

we're just here bring good friends. I

15:53

have a question for you, Pavilion.

15:56

It is we have an inmate

15:58

that one of our friends is going into saying.

16:00

We were just wondering if we could wave to him, but we don't

16:02

think that's possible. Um it,

16:05

I know who you guys are. You do you

16:08

know

16:12

I watched the UM the twenty past?

16:15

Oh yeah, okay, yeah, do you think I

16:20

can? Yeah? She

16:22

asked us to turn off the tape recorder. That's

16:25

when she told us that she's known Leo for years

16:28

and she thinks he's innocent and doesn't

16:30

belong in prison. Oh,

16:35

here comes Scott. He's just coming out from

16:37

his visit with Leo. We were able

16:39

to wave at Leo, and

16:42

we saw Scott and Leo put

16:44

their arms around each other and

16:47

hug and it was just really beautiful to be

16:49

able to witness that. Um,

16:52

okay, let's hi,

17:00

I'm here with my microphone to put in your face.

17:03

Starting to get used to us. Yeah,

17:07

he um, I'm

17:09

glad. I'm glad I made the decision

17:12

that I'm making. Um, I

17:15

don't know, it's kind of let's

17:19

walk back. Okay,

17:24

we're leaving. Sorry, yeah, we're just picking it up

17:26

movie phone. I'm so sorry. Thank

17:29

you. Once

17:37

we got in the car, our ride back was

17:39

mostly quiet. It was clear

17:42

to us that Judge Cupp needed some time to

17:44

process. It

17:48

was pretty intense, it was pretty overwhelming.

17:51

It was really nice to reconnect

17:53

and just and

17:55

I told him, I said, I just I think he wanted

17:57

to too, just wanted to talk about

18:00

whatever, whatever came up, and not anything

18:03

too heavy. And then it just kind of um.

18:08

Then I got a little more intense when I told

18:11

him what I was going to do, and that

18:13

I'm planning to step off the bench effective

18:16

March first and go back to being his lawyer.

18:19

So this

18:21

is happening. Listen,

18:29

that's a pretty big statement. And

18:33

as a friend, a

18:35

close family friend, that's

18:38

a waiting proposition

18:41

for me. I talked to Leo

18:43

after the visit to ask him how he felt

18:45

about Judge Cupp's intention to leave the bench

18:48

and represent him again alongside

18:50

his other lawyers. I mean,

18:53

I know a lot

18:55

about Scott's background and

19:00

long he's been an attorney, how long you worked

19:02

as a prosecutor, how long he worked as a defense

19:04

attorney for me, and you

19:07

know, and then worked his way to

19:09

the bench, you know, I mean, and I gotta

19:11

I gotta think that's kind of been an aspiration

19:14

of his, you know, for a

19:16

long time. When

19:18

he had asked to become my lawyer again, I'm

19:20

like, you know, the biggest

19:22

concern that I had was that, you

19:25

know, this was not something he was doing

19:27

because he felt obligated and he felt responsible,

19:30

or because Scott is not the reason why

19:32

I'm in prison. So I didn't want

19:34

Scott thinking that, you know, he had

19:36

to do this for me, because he doesn't owe

19:38

me anything. Friends don't owe friends. And

19:41

we talk a little bit more, and

19:43

then he said, um, I noticed

19:45

you didn't answer me, So is that a yes

19:47

sport or what I'm

19:50

looking at him? He said, And I'm like, you know what he

19:52

said, You're gonna let me in, I said, Scott,

19:54

I never let you out, you know, so, I mean

19:57

not hard for me to let you in and

20:00

and uh, I said, I just wanted to make sure that

20:02

this is something that you actually wanted

20:05

to do. And he said, I don't want to

20:07

do this. I need to do this, and

20:09

he emphasized the need He's

20:11

told him. I kid, you know, can't ever, can't ever

20:14

let it go. I

20:17

guess I put him in a position that if he

20:19

protested too much, it's like, okay, well,

20:22

because you'll have to find another way. Yeah,

20:27

I'm gonna be devoting all my energy being

20:30

singlely focused on making

20:32

sure he's out. By the end

20:34

of the visit, he was saying, I need you to, you

20:36

know, keep your head above water and everything. I said, I'm

20:39

good. My superheroes back. You

20:41

know, I had to analogy when my boat

20:43

is going down, I'm thinking that the state has

20:45

has torpedoed it and I'm going down, and Scott

20:48

was always the one bailing

20:50

of water with me. I mean, you know, Scott's in that boat

20:52

with me, and he's feeling the emotion

20:54

of it. And that was

20:57

always important to me. It was it was it

21:00

was the one thing that allowed

21:02

me to get emotional thinking

21:04

about it. It allowed me to

21:07

look for another day to fight. I wouldn't even know

21:09

what it would be when when the boat's going down,

21:11

no one knows what the next step is going to

21:13

be, just going down. But I know

21:16

that as long as I had Scott

21:18

with mean will find another another

21:20

door. We'll find another way to get the

21:22

boat above water. And you know

21:25

that's just the kind of guy that Scott really is.

21:28

Leo brings up this boat analogy all the time.

21:31

He says, Judge Cupp is in the boat with him,

21:33

helping him bail water from the sinking ship.

21:37

Leo tells me that I can't be in the boat.

21:40

It's a legal fight, and what I'm doing

21:43

telling his story is a different

21:45

kind of thing. He says he

21:47

can't have me in the boat going down with

21:49

him. He says he needs me

21:51

to be the lighthouse guiding

21:53

the boat to safety. Judge

22:08

Cupp could stay on the bench for many more

22:10

years, and that's usually what judges

22:12

do. They often devote

22:14

their whole careers to trying to get and keep

22:17

their seat on the bench. But

22:19

he's letting it all go to get back

22:22

in the boat with Leo. Judge

22:36

Cupp's letter is short and to the point

22:39

it reads, Dear Governor

22:41

DeSantis, please accept

22:44

this as my letter of resignation. My

22:46

last day will be March first, twenty

22:49

twenty three. I have enjoyed

22:52

and I'm grateful for my time spent on

22:54

the bench in the twentieth Circuit. I

22:56

look forward to the opportunities and challenges

22:59

of return to private practice. Sincerely,

23:03

Scott H. Cupp Circuit

23:05

Judge. You

23:12

have one minute remaining.

23:15

Well listen. I just want to tell you, just

23:18

standing outside the prison and seeing you

23:20

through that fence was a really bittersweet

23:23

mode for both Kelsey and I. It

23:25

was just really hard to just wave

23:27

to you and not be able to come over to you. M

23:30

yeah, absolutely, but I think you know. Thank

23:33

Okay, I think we knew where our hearts were at that moment,

23:36

yelling across the like that our

23:38

hearts for one and say will continue

23:41

to be. I love you, buddy, Thank

23:43

you too much. Okay, buddy, thank you for calling.

23:45

We'll talk sooner. Thank you. I'm all, yes,

23:48

sir, anytime, Buddy. Good night, you too. Man.

23:50

Thanks by many

24:00

of you have been reaching out to me asking

24:02

what you can do to help Leo. Right

24:05

now, the best thing to do is to sign the

24:07

petition that's been set up by the Innocence

24:09

Project of Florida to have Leo's case

24:11

transferred to a different circuit for an

24:14

independent review. You can

24:16

find the change dot org petition in

24:18

our show notes. Follow

24:21

the Bone Valley podcast for updates.