0:15

Pushkin. This

0:23

is broken record liner notes for the Digital

0:26

Age. I'm justin Richmondson. Hey

0:33

y'all. We'll be back on our normal schedule next

0:35

week, dropping new episodes on Tuesday,

0:37

but we wanted to share with you an episode we didn't get a

0:40

chance to run last year but still really

0:42

enjoyed. It's Bruce Headlam speaking to

0:44

singer, songwriter, pianist nineties

0:46

alt rocker Ben Folds. Folds

0:49

is best known for the music he put out with The ben Folds

0:51

Five in the mid nineties, particularly

0:53

for the song Brick, which was a bit of a surprise

0:56

hit in nineteen ninety eight. Who

0:58

was also known for his onstage antics, like

1:00

smashing a priceless Steinway piano on national

1:03

TV in Australia that got him dropped

1:05

from a Steinway endorsement. Folds

1:07

talks with Bruce about the genesis of these angsty

1:09

stage antics, and also about the making of

1:11

the song Brick, and other anecdotes gleaned

1:13

from the book he wrote about his life and craft, called

1:16

A Dream About Lightning Books. Enjoy

1:19

this episode. It was taped pre pandemic,

1:21

so Bruce and Folds are on the same studio and

1:23

we'll see you next week. You mentioned

1:25

in the book that you are both a

1:27

hard worker and completely undisciplined.

1:30

Right now, you've written an enormous number

1:33

of songs. Your last record

1:35

also had a piano concerto. You've written different

1:37

kinds of music. What was it like

1:39

writing a book as opposed to writing songs?

1:43

Interestingly, I found discipline

1:45

writing the book that I hadn't found

1:47

in writing songs. And I

1:49

think it actually came down to something I had read Stephen

1:52

King said about if you want to write a book,

1:55

sit down in the morning, shut

1:58

the door and write two or three

2:00

thousand words that should get chupped about two o'clock,

2:02

go get lunch and forget about it. And I

2:04

thought, oh, well, he knows

2:06

how to write a book. I'll just do that. And

2:09

I went to my office, shut

2:11

the door, and I wrote for three or four hours, like Stephen

2:13

King said. Now, I've never written music that way. So that

2:16

is discipline that I found. But

2:18

I think it is a distinction. I

2:20

work hard, not because I was taught

2:22

discipline or I have a good knack for discipline.

2:25

I'm just simply driven. And I think that's

2:27

a harder way to do it. I think it's better if

2:29

you have a Sergeant Rock inside guilting

2:32

the hell out of you if you're not getting up early in the

2:34

morning and doing your sit ups in your

2:36

meditation and then going straight into the room right

2:38

in your morning page. It's not all that stuff. I think that's a that's

2:40

an enviable thing. But when

2:43

it comes to music, I'm awful. I have

2:45

to have the deadline after have people breathing

2:47

down my knack. That has to be a drama about I'm not going to turn

2:49

it in on time. And it's the worst thing I've ever written,

2:51

and you can't make me turn it in on

2:53

time. And I'm going to take this from my

2:56

goal. Cold dead fingers and all this. I

2:58

just you know, but the book everything

3:00

I got in before time. I

3:03

drove the project and I was disciplined.

3:06

Have you tried to apply that to music since or

3:08

just it does just a different thing doesn't work.

3:10

I don't know. It's it's hard to it's

3:12

hard to turn that around. It's hard to turn you

3:15

know, like not

3:17

spring Chicken. I've got my drama

3:19

habits. I have to be late with my projects

3:21

and all this stuff. It's just the way I seem to roll.

3:23

I did try. I mean I put in my

3:26

calendar, I'll put a little music signs.

3:28

I drew them all over my calendar for this year. These

3:30

are the days I'm going to write music because I thought I would

3:32

learn from my book writing that

3:34

I've done it. Now that done nothing.

3:36

No, I'm terrible. Okay, yeah, well

3:39

it's different. It's not terrible. Trying to say

3:41

terrible. I find it. I judge

3:43

it terrible, but thank

3:45

you. I'll take that in Speaking of judging.

3:48

Uh, you know, I remember when you first came out with a lot

3:50

of people thought, well, you know, he's like a

3:52

college guy. Yeah, which

3:54

was It is never a compliment when it comes

3:56

to rock music because people somehow think college

3:59

it's rock music out of you. But you

4:01

would have really chaotic yeah

4:03

upbringing, you know, and your

4:06

family head chaos. Going back,

4:08

your your and your grandmother were

4:10

both left at orphanages for a time. Your

4:12

grandfather threatened to kill your father at

4:14

some point. What

4:17

was it like growing up in that kind of atmosphere.

4:19

Well, you know, the reason that I put a

4:22

lot of that stuff in was if

4:24

I was going to say, I would like to

4:27

teach people about creativity,

4:29

but I'm not an expert on creativity outside

4:31

of my own. So it's like, Okay, well, the best way

4:34

to do this is to tell how

4:36

I did it. But then it's like you

4:38

almost kind of want to do a little almost ethnographic

4:41

study of how did I get

4:43

there? And so I looked back at

4:45

the momentum that

4:47

had propelled me into

4:50

being a person that that how I was born,

4:52

what I was born into, and what I

4:54

see is an incredible firewall

4:57

that my parents threw up

5:01

between their abusive

5:04

upbringings and mine.

5:06

Incredible. I mean, they say the cycles is

5:09

impossible to breakers, very difficult break. My

5:11

parents show that to be wrong, I mean,

5:13

and they had me very young, and

5:16

it's the clean slate which

5:19

is part of the part of the chaos

5:22

of my upbringing. So the fact that all that stuff

5:24

happened and was of interest in all

5:26

this energy of craziness

5:28

in my parents upbringing and then boom

5:30

it comes to my brother and I are are

5:33

born, and they just played it all by ear

5:35

and cut all that off. And I think that

5:37

that I felt that like I've felt

5:40

the upbringings of my father being held up

5:42

at knife point and gunpoint, and my grandfather

5:44

killed himself. But I never really met my grandfather,

5:46

and I wasn't around for those things, but it

5:48

does by osmosis sink in, and

5:51

you know that that we moved every years. You know, my

5:54

father just probably

5:57

clean slate in it every year, trying to survive,

5:59

you know. I mean a lot of people don't survive

6:02

mentally what he went through and he

6:04

did so, like amazingly. Was

6:07

it responsible for a bit of your a year drive

6:09

and be on the other hand, your lack of discipline,

6:12

Well, I think my lack of discipline was

6:15

the trade off for my parents being

6:17

so open minded. So, like,

6:19

what's today going to be? I don't know, it's no schedule.

6:22

Did you get to school? You got to school. That's

6:25

good. Oh, you liked that song on the radio.

6:27

Well, you don't have to go to school until noon.

6:30

You can listen to that song. You liked that song. Yeah,

6:32

you told the story. Your mother let

6:34

you stay late because you liked the song in the ray Paul

6:36

Simon song called love Me Like a Rock. I love

6:39

that song. I was waiting for that to come on since

6:41

six in the morning. I woke up early, had

6:43

my transistor radio on the ear. I had requested

6:45

at the radio station. They said they were going to play it. Seven

6:48

o'clock rolled around, they still hadn't played it.

6:50

Eight o'clock and then I'm like, they haven't played the

6:52

song, but they're gonna play it after commercial ms. I find

6:55

I don't have to go to school. It's wonderful, it's

6:58

great, but it's not exactly a discipline lifestyle.

7:00

No, But you were very driven

7:02

from an early age on the piano.

7:05

Yeah. Yeah, And as

7:07

you describe it in the book, you would

7:09

listen to your radio at night, yeah,

7:12

and then you would get up and you didn't

7:15

I don't quite understand. You said you didn't play

7:17

by ear, but you somehow fumbled through

7:19

to figure out the song. So what was that? Well,

7:21

I didn't really get there. That's the problem

7:24

is that that's not where I arrived. Like I listened

7:26

to the radio and I would hear these songs like

7:28

a real simple one, that lou Rawl song that

7:30

goes you'll never find

7:34

simple all that is is. But

7:39

I couldn't find it, you know, because you don't know what you're

7:41

looking for. As a kid, I never had

7:43

a vocabulary early on

7:45

to learn other people's songs. So even though I wanted

7:47

to, and I mentioned that in the book, that. Yeah, I'm going to play all

7:49

these songs when I wake up. There is actually

7:52

a method. I believe you

7:54

should learn to play by ear. It's not something

7:56

that just happens

7:58

out of thin air. And I found it very frustrating.

8:01

That's why I broke a lot of stuff growing up. I threw

8:03

a lot of fits when I was a kid. I threw

8:06

my punched holes in walls, I broke furniture

8:09

in trouble constantly for it. Because I couldn't

8:11

play something on the piano. I would listen to it and go,

8:13

oh, I should be able to play that. Well,

8:15

where do you start? I never knew, And

8:18

so what were you playing in those days you weren't

8:20

playing? I would find that

8:22

was the song lou roll song.

8:24

That's right, you're gonna miss my singing.

8:27

I love that song? Yeah,

8:29

um yeah,

8:31

I mean I ended up finding my

8:34

own songs, you know. I would search

8:36

for things and try to play. Started off

8:38

doing a lot of noise, you know, which

8:40

I would recommend for kids. I actually think it's

8:42

really good. It's like throwing your food or putting your hands

8:44

in food when you were like, you know, eighteen months

8:47

old or something. That's something you should probably do um.

8:51

And then I would, you know, I would start to find

8:53

things that I could that I could play

8:55

it, and I made them up, like I remember one that

8:57

went that's

9:05

really it was based around a little theme

9:07

like that I'm

9:16

trying to play like a child. And

9:23

I mean I made that up when I was about eight or

9:25

nine, and it's got interesting chords in

9:27

it and it's cool. But I wasn't finding I

9:29

wasn't able to find, you know,

9:32

the Elton John song I might want to find.

9:34

To this day, I can play one of

9:36

his songs on the pianos because I learned it to play

9:39

with him, and I had to really work at it. I

9:41

don't learn other people's stuff very well. I

9:43

found my own stuff, and I found

9:46

years later Elton John talked to you how to play one

9:48

of his songs. Now I learned it myself.

9:50

I was just like, we're He's like, let's play a

9:52

tiny dancer together, and so

9:56

I learned it. I learned a couple other of his songs actually,

9:58

come to think of it, because I did a couple of gigs with him,

10:00

but they were always really had to put the time into

10:02

it, because you know, like

10:04

someone like Rufus wain Rice

10:07

is really really confident about

10:09

his singing. You know, he's such a great singer.

10:11

And I remember we both did a thing with Elton

10:14

in a Broadway theater where we were playing

10:18

Goodbye Yell Brick Road in his entirety

10:20

and Jake from Scissor Sisters, and

10:22

there's a couple of things, a really neat little show,

10:25

and I was to sign two of his songs,

10:27

and I worked on it for two days, all

10:30

day long in the hotel, and then when I got

10:32

there, I realized that all all

10:34

Rufus was doing it was just reading off the teleprompter.

10:37

He didn't really know the song. Rufus

10:39

didn't know the song Goodbye

10:41

Yell Brick Road. He just kind of didn't

10:43

know it. He was just reading the words and his melody

10:46

was coming out as he just kind of thought he should do

10:48

it. And I remember thinking, God, I worked

10:50

so hard. They're trying to find that and

10:52

he's killing it. But he's just doing his own thing.

10:54

You know, even

10:57

though I seem cavalier as a musician,

10:59

when there's something I need to do, i'd really

11:01

try hard to find it, and I work hard to find it,

11:04

you know, right, this is the hard worker. The

11:06

hard work necessarily discipline. If I had

11:08

been disciplined, I would have learned how to actually

11:11

learn. But I didn't learn how to learn. I have to

11:13

like sit down and figure that out. You

11:15

were also a drummer when you were young. Yea, and

11:17

you say at some point in the book that you

11:19

you sort of played the piano like

11:22

a drummer. Yes. Can you show me

11:24

what you mean by that? Yeah? Well, there's two

11:26

things that are really lucky about the way my

11:29

piano playing developed. Because I was I

11:33

did have a lot of lessons, and

11:36

I did study percussion, So my

11:38

percussion chops pretty

11:40

real. My piano stuff is really

11:42

spotty. Think why when I start to talk about

11:45

my development on the piano, I

11:47

really kind of go into outer space. I can't

11:49

really explain it, you know, like we've been talking about

11:51

it. I'd say I've the least articulate about that.

11:53

If I'm if I'm explaining percussion

11:55

drums, Oh yeah, I can do that. What I

11:58

play and what's common from my eras

12:01

as a battery percussionist is called left

12:03

hand lead, and it's left hand lead

12:05

because people marched, so

12:07

all of the what they call the rudiments

12:10

of percussion called

12:13

funny things like radom accuse and paradiddles.

12:16

I don't know if you've heard flamma diddles. All

12:18

this stuff is all military, but

12:21

it's actually really good for putting you through the paces.

12:23

But it's a left hand lead when

12:25

most people aren't left handed. That's because you march

12:28

left right, left right, and that's why

12:30

we do that. So I was learning

12:32

percussion totally left hand lead like I

12:34

was supposed to, which has

12:37

really great benefit for

12:39

the piano. For for instance,

12:41

you know, just going left or right, it's like just

12:46

to play rock and roll music, I'm not grounded

12:48

at the top of the piano. It's always going to happen

12:50

at the bottom first. And that might seem small,

12:53

but you know, to me, to hear my groove

12:55

on the piano, well

12:57

it's much better than most piano players, just because

13:00

even if they were drummers, they might be more

13:02

right handed, but because I was trained that way.

13:05

So on the piano, for instance, if you're

13:07

if you're a common right

13:09

handed drummer, you're

13:11

working against the left

13:13

handed lead method, which means a lot of drum set

13:15

players actually aren't. They're

13:18

right handed, they're not exactly uh

13:21

trained or skilled at

13:24

at sort of stick control. Like most professional

13:27

drummers I see, even really great ones. If you have them

13:29

do a buzz role, it's really sketchy. It's

13:31

not that good. Mine was kind of perfect after

13:34

the first year of of of playing acause

13:36

that was really serious about anyway. So

13:38

so when when they when they go to play a

13:41

ride pattern, okay, uh, this

13:43

is all gonna get out of out

13:45

when this is the stuff we love really

13:47

Okay, if you're playing a ride pattern,

13:50

you're a right handed drummer, you know that

13:52

your right hand is going on the symbol or the high

13:55

is going and

13:58

then your left hand is

14:00

on the snare drunk going to dot

14:04

and you're let's see, it's your right foot

14:07

is playing the bass drums. You're leading with your right foot

14:10

right, left, right, left right,

14:12

staring kick, staring right

14:14

left. You're not going left, right, left right. I

14:17

enjoyed already going

14:19

left right, left, right because I had that old school

14:21

stuff in my training, which was kind of unusual

14:24

for said drummer. Then when you translate that to

14:26

piano, then my left hand is

14:28

the ride symbol right. So when I play a left

14:30

handed kit, which is what I do, I'm

14:32

a left handed drummer, my

14:34

left hand is riding, which is very unusual,

14:36

But for a piano player, it's a dream because I'm going

14:42

with my left hand and I'm completely grounded

14:44

that way, and if I wanted to go, I

14:51

can. I can play syncope because I always have

14:53

a root in my right

14:55

hand hitting the downbeat. And most

14:58

piano players are viewing

15:00

this as a lot of different events like

15:03

they're they're they're viewing it. That's

15:05

one event. To me, just land on

15:07

my left foot and I'm fine.

15:16

That's That's easy for me because I've

15:19

played left hand lead, left

15:21

hand drums set and when I applied that to piano.

15:23

With my piano concerto, the hardest things

15:25

to do in it are just simply drummer

15:28

things, left right rhythm things. You know, a piano

15:30

player might find the piece difficult

15:32

sometimes only because of

15:34

the left right, left right stuff.

15:39

For a piano player, they would expect

15:41

more beautiful runs. Well,

15:43

I don't really have an articulate beautiful

15:45

run. I'm a percussive piano player. So my piano

15:48

concerto starts with this and

15:53

that, and all that is is just playing drums.

15:56

I'm just going and

16:05

it doesn't take much for me, but if I had to go, it's

16:12

not a good scale. I'm not very good at that. Wow.

16:17

Now, when you listen to other players, can you hear are

16:19

there other left handed piano players you can

16:21

hear and see? There are some piano

16:23

players that are just more

16:26

rooted in a drum set and

16:29

they sound like that to me too. That come

16:32

hit me from the top of head. Are

16:34

Stevie Wonder when he

16:37

plays drums and he plays piano

16:39

that sounds very similar to me. And

16:41

he said, and I don't think he probably

16:43

plays left handed, but

16:45

I suppose and from what I've heard, I've never seen him

16:47

play drums that he's

16:49

all over the shop because he can't see what he's doing.

16:53

So he don't think he plays like a left or right handed

16:55

drummer. So the left handed thing wouldn't

16:57

come in, but the drum set thing definitely like

16:59

you hear him play piano that sounds like a drum set.

17:02

And I don't know if Billy Preston played drums

17:04

or not, but he had

17:07

a relentless groove

17:10

at the keyboard, the kind that you don't

17:12

hear many players these days have. And and

17:14

I hate to you know I'm

17:16

a different style and everything, and this

17:19

is gonna sound very cocky, but I would place myself

17:21

in that kind of in

17:25

that small group of keyboard players that can actually

17:27

play in time. If I would talk to people

17:30

who played with you, what would they say about

17:32

your sense of timing. Well,

17:36

everyone's so damn opinionated. They think their

17:38

time is perfect, So no one's going

17:40

to completely agree with me. But I think

17:42

most musicians would say I have good time

17:46

as a As a piano player, I

17:48

probably lean forward a little bit,

17:50

so you're you're on top of the beating. I think I'm a little

17:52

bit on top of the beat. But it depends on the song.

17:55

I mean, I play solo piano

17:57

so much, I'm allowed to play

17:59

with the time, and I know that sometimes I choose to

18:01

really pull it back. There's a song called still

18:03

Finding It. When I get to the chorus and it's like, it's

18:07

been about this tempo everybody.

18:12

Oh, it's gone through this. Sorry,

18:14

it's gone through that. Everybody

18:24

established to get to the course. I'm

18:31

just pulling back, especially on the twos and fours.

18:33

That's just down right weird. Uh,

18:36

That that one. I played all the instruments on the record,

18:38

and I had a very concerned producers

18:40

like, you're dragging so bad. So

18:43

we re reprogrammed, you

18:45

know, the grid

18:49

to slow it down like five clicks.

18:52

So it had to be programmed into the computer

18:54

that I insisted at the computer following me

18:56

and slow down. I like a time map like

18:58

that. I think it is smart. We'll be right

19:00

back with more from Ben Folds. We're

19:07

back with Bruce Hedland's converse with

19:09

Ben Folds, So

19:11

I want to switch a little bit and talk

19:14

about your lyrics.

19:17

We haven't exhausted rhythm rhythm,

19:21

uh, and we'll come back to it.

19:23

But it's interesting you're We've talked

19:25

a lot to a lot of singer

19:28

songwriters on this show who hate

19:30

the kind of label the confessional

19:34

singer songwriter. No

19:36

one's hung that on you, but you've

19:38

written some incredibly

19:41

deeply personal

19:44

lyrics. Yeah. I think

19:47

maybe part of the reason that hasn't been hung on me is

19:49

I don't even think until recently, the

19:52

words songwriter has been hung on me a

19:54

lot. I think that I started off by

19:57

treating the songs with almost disrespect,

19:59

that my band distorted over them. We

20:02

played too fast, we covered

20:04

things up, we over arranged kind

20:06

of because that was exciting to us. Saw

20:09

that would have been if

20:11

they were a Barry Manilow song or an Elton Johnson

20:14

we were very seventies kind of those

20:16

songs would have been treated with such respect,

20:19

space for the vocal, you know,

20:21

proper, proper production treatment. But we

20:24

just stopped through them because that was the

20:26

punk rock era and in a way we

20:28

were maybe ashamed of the of

20:30

the overthinking of the songs

20:32

as a result. Kind of, I feel

20:34

like in my career people didn't. Really my fans

20:37

did, but in general I never really

20:39

saw myself mentioned

20:41

that often kind of as a songwriter. First

20:44

usually it was about the showmanship or my

20:47

piano playing, or the band, the

20:49

fact that we didn't have a guitar. And then

20:51

there was you know, a brick as brick

20:54

as a hit, maybe about the fact that it was about

20:56

an abortion, but not about the

20:58

writing of it. Then you'd see someone I don't know,

21:00

like like ohmy have mine,

21:02

like Ryan Adams always talking

21:04

about a songwriting, or Jeff Tweedy and always talking about

21:07

their songwriting. So I don't really I think

21:09

maybe some of it is because I was so cavalier

21:11

about it that no matter what kind

21:13

of song I wrote, that wasn't front

21:16

and center of what people have talked about, So that

21:18

that does make a difference, I think in perception. Also,

21:22

my instinct was that if you're writing a song, and

21:24

this is where I do a lot of thinking, if you're

21:26

writing a song that is against

21:29

someone like you did this and you did

21:31

that, it's a real finger pointy song. We

21:34

all way too often

21:37

we demonize the person we're pointing

21:39

the finger at. There are no redeeming qualities

21:42

that person. And I love Fiona Apple, but

21:44

like listening to a lot of songs, I mean the person she's singing

21:46

about half the time that this maybe may

21:48

as well be satan. I have a feeling if I met

21:50

the guy, I could have a beer with him and actually find

21:52

redeeming qualities. So although

21:55

I think she's amazing at writing that I

21:57

never personally wanted to do that, I

21:59

think that that that you will get looked at more

22:02

as a confessional singer songwriter. If you make

22:04

a cartoon out of yourself, I

22:07

should say in the book you explained people though

22:09

the song Brick that it really was it was based

22:11

on her. Yes, a real time in your life,

22:14

your girlfriend and senior year high school

22:16

was pregnant. Ye, you decided

22:18

having abortions very

22:21

troubling time for you, awful.

22:23

I didn't realize the degree to which a

22:26

lot of the writing was taken from

22:28

real life. But I don't know

22:30

how you came up with it. Musically, that's

22:33

an interesting one. It goes against and that's why I

22:35

said, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. When I try to

22:38

describe myself. It's the

22:40

opposite of what I've been saying. I mean,

22:42

brick is is exactly

22:44

what happened in high school with a rhyme to it.

22:47

So I just did the opposite with them. But as I say,

22:49

the couple times i've I've been very

22:51

sort of literal and more confessional. They

22:53

have been successful. You know. A

22:56

song like Brick was about sitting

22:58

down my my my friend, the drummer

23:00

Darren Jesse had the chorus, which is a

23:03

brick and I'm drawn it. He

23:06

had that and he was like, I think that's a good churuse,

23:08

what do you think. I'm like, well, I think it's great. What does

23:10

it mean? Because I have no idea? Huh

23:12

okay? And I literally heat the lyrics as well. Head

23:15

lyrics as well. It was just She's

23:17

a brick and I'm drowned slowly off the coast,

23:20

headed nowhere. That was four

23:23

short lines. That's the whole song that he

23:25

had written, or that's the whole contribution.

23:27

Happens to be the chorus, happens to

23:29

have made it a hit, huge contribution.

23:32

But then I thought, what does this make me feel?

23:34

Like? I

23:40

felt like that, you know, slowed down a little bit,

23:42

and then you know his and

23:52

so this occurred to me, and

23:55

then I just felt like telling the story of what happened

23:58

in high school. It just all came to me really really

24:00

fast, like the story of what happened. I

24:02

almost considered an experiment, I think, to

24:06

to write bone

24:08

headed about what happened. But I didn't see

24:10

any other way to do that song. And I had

24:12

cover now because I had this ambiguous

24:15

chorus. It's funny that a lot of times

24:18

I'll have like suddenly i'll see my Twitter

24:20

blow up and it'll be all these people who

24:23

have like maybe the topic

24:25

of the day's abortion, and

24:28

they're pretty critical of me. They're

24:30

pretty mean, actually, people

24:33

I don't know saying ky this guy made

24:35

a million bucks singing about his girlfriend's

24:37

abortion. He made her do and he hates her guts,

24:40

and he's sending her out to the ocean and all this

24:42

stuff. And they've read all this stuff into the lyrics,

24:44

and I think about the actual circumstances

24:47

and how much care there was between

24:49

the two of us, and what a decision that was, and how

24:52

not black and white the world is, and

24:54

I see this come through. But often

24:59

what seems to bother than the most is

25:02

the chorus. Well, Darren wrote the chorus in a vacuum,

25:05

and I just took the feeling of it and went

25:07

with it. It's actually probably a

25:09

pretty seemful bad

25:15

method of throwing a song together.

25:17

It's very haphazard. I just took that chorus,

25:19

which I don't still even understand, but

25:22

it made me feel something, so I went with that.

25:24

As a songwriter, sometimes where you

25:26

know, they say, you know, you don't learn how to write a book,

25:28

You learn how to write the book you're on. So

25:30

on that song, I'm like, how do you write a song? Well,

25:32

I don't know. This makes me feel this, and I'll just go with it.

25:35

It was on the record before I could

25:37

even really protest the idea that I had written

25:39

something so personal. I just needed another

25:41

song for the record, and I felt that out of that

25:43

and there you go. Luckily, I feel like

25:46

the song lyrics that are

25:48

in the verse are so true to what

25:50

happened that I feel

25:53

like I don't feel like I'm going to be sent to some some

25:56

some kind of you know, social

25:58

movement, hell or anything for that song at

26:01

this point, just simply because I was just

26:03

telling the truth. And I feel like at the end

26:05

of the day that that does weigh

26:08

something. You have a great quote

26:10

which I want to read. There's many,

26:12

many great parts of this book. I encourage

26:14

everybody to read it. I'm going to read just

26:19

a couple of lines which I think

26:22

to me really jumped out. From time to time,

26:24

we all catch a split second

26:26

glance of a stranger in a storefront

26:29

window before realizing it's our own reflection.

26:32

A songwriter's job is to see that

26:34

guy, not the one posing straight

26:36

on in the bathroom mirror. I

26:38

feel like a song has to have moments

26:42

that snuck up on you the way that I described

26:44

it, That's the way I see it. Because you'll see someone

26:46

in a storefront, you will

26:48

think, you'll think something about them.

26:50

You might think Kyle, what's that guy wearing?

26:53

Or there's a handsome motherfucker there.

26:55

You'll think something, but you're not placing

26:57

your own self awareness on to it. And

27:01

it's so rare. We hear our voices inside

27:03

our own heads. We never get to get out

27:05

of that. But a songwriter really needs

27:07

to have a moment to find that hook

27:10

or crook. However you can find it, and

27:12

it's probably brief and you probably

27:14

have to remember that. Like to me, it

27:17

feels like sometimes

27:19

it's in a chill hair

27:22

standing up that I get while

27:25

building a song and

27:28

it never comes back. It's not like that line

27:30

does it to me anymore? But I have to remember

27:34

that happened, you know, because as

27:36

you start to craft a song, especially when

27:38

you're crafting the extent that I do,

27:41

you have to hang on to that little innocent

27:44

moment that you weren't self aware, that you didn't

27:46

know that was you, because now you're

27:48

putting the microscope on it. So watch

27:50

those edits, you know, watch the ones where you're trying

27:52

to make yourself look better, or the ones where

27:54

you're you know, aiming your head into

27:56

the mirror just perfect so you get that perfect

27:59

angle on your chin like you don't don't do

28:01

that, Like you can't do that in a song and

28:04

have it survive with honesty. Can

28:06

you think of example songs that

28:09

where you think you've had that moment you were able

28:11

to hang onto it. I think every song that I've

28:13

written has has them. That's why

28:16

I that's why they have survived. Um.

28:19

And it's not like you can say it's one line.

28:22

It's something that it's

28:24

a it's like an environment that is

28:26

created by the song, where that that it

28:28

seeps into the rest of the song. It's in

28:31

its attitude, it's in the way the chords move.

28:33

You may decide on

28:36

a on a lilt or something that

28:39

you don't know why you're doing that, like it's

28:41

it's a cadence. I wish I could say. I

28:43

mean sometimes they can be lines. There's a line

28:45

that lines can surprise

28:48

you with what was

28:50

there that you didn't know and

28:53

you can discover them later. Um. Very

28:56

simple one was the song Phone in a Pool, which

28:58

I use a lot in the book. It's not really

29:01

that well known song of mine. It's

29:03

in the later part of my catalog, which, um,

29:06

you know, record sell fewer and fewer each

29:08

time. I'm so probably fewer people know the song,

29:11

but it's a moment where

29:14

I said, what's what's

29:16

been good for the music hasn't always been so good

29:18

for the life. Kind

29:20

of rhyme to kind of fit seemed right, gave

29:23

me the little chill. Didn't think about it. When I

29:25

was writing the book. It kept coming up. I could have used

29:27

that like every other every other chapter

29:30

pretty easily. Can you can

29:32

you just play those lines from

29:35

Phone in the Pool? Yeah, because it's, by the way, it was

29:37

based on you actually throwing your phone in a pool. That's

29:39

right, Yeah, I mean nothing nothing to

29:41

the experience of the song. Really, that what

29:44

what what inspired

29:46

the song is really in there and would have been probably

29:49

a good journal entry. You know, I

29:52

was. I had so many competing

29:54

phone calls. I was in the middle of one of those terrible

29:56

texting shit shows with three

29:59

parties, and I just walked off stage.

30:01

I mean, I felt like, you know, I'm the least

30:03

important person at this moment in this texting

30:05

when I'm getting my ass kicked by three direct

30:07

But I mean I have some respect. It's got awful work. Like

30:10

I just kind of felt like, ah, sick of this. I

30:12

hate phones and I was walking by the

30:15

pool at the sunset Marquee in

30:20

Los Angeles, and I just reflexively,

30:22

no one else was there. I thought I threw it in

30:24

the pool and it went then

30:26

under the bottom. And then this voice comes out of the shadows.

30:29

Ben is that you like? Looked

30:31

over and it was Kesha and she was pulling

30:34

off a hoodie. She's just been chased by paparazzi

30:36

and came through the bush. So

30:39

she goes, what did you just do? And I was like, I

30:41

threw my phone in the pool. Why did you do

30:43

that? I don't know. I'm sick

30:45

of it. And she's like, don't do that, and

30:48

she jumped in with all her clothes on and she

30:50

went under the bottom of the pool and got my phone. She's

30:52

like, you know, you should put this in rice. That's

30:55

you know, mine fell on the toilet and I looked on the internet. You

30:57

put it in rice and then don't turn it on until

30:59

it's dry and it'll fix the phone. That's

31:01

where the song came from. Nothing about that in

31:05

the actual song, because

31:07

of course it's just like throw

31:10

my phone in again.

31:20

So that's the course of it. Uh, let's see

31:22

what's what's

31:24

been good for always

31:28

been so good for the life. I

31:30

guess I was kind of like, you know, throwing a phone

31:33

in the pool. That

31:35

has consequences, you know, like an I I

31:37

have to go down to Verizon or whatever and staying

31:39

in line with people and get a phone. It

31:42

costs money. Someone built the phone. People

31:44

can't get in touch with me anymore, you know, like

31:46

like like in real life. I was thinking, you know, being

31:49

a kamakage in your music, what's good for the music?

31:52

Yeah? Sure, but you don't just walk by the pool

31:54

and throw your phone in. That's not what grown

31:56

ups do. So that's what I meant by the line. Well

31:59

before you threw the phone in the pool, long

32:01

before you used to throw

32:03

your piano stool. Yeah, at your

32:05

piano. You know you're sitting at a beautiful Yamaha.

32:08

I think it's a having foot Yeah, um

32:11

you we. I should mention you used to

32:13

have a deal with Steinway. I did until

32:15

you broke one of their pianos throwing

32:18

her. Yeah I

32:20

didn't. I I threw

32:23

a stool as

32:25

show biz on a television show. Um

32:27

it was our debut on television in Australia,

32:30

and um it very

32:33

much, very much upset the

32:35

host of the show, um whose

32:37

piano it was go

32:40

to figure. We thought it was

32:42

a rental. We were always prepared to pay if I mess

32:44

something up. But I really didn't break many pianos.

32:47

I I told about the two times I did break

32:49

pianos, I felt horrible. One was his grandmother's

32:52

family heirloom stein away from the

32:55

eight nineteenth century. And I

32:57

was a jerk and I should have though I didn't

33:00

think you got a lot of You

33:03

acted out a lot on stage. I was

33:05

a piano player totally, a lot

33:07

of flipping off the audience, a lot

33:09

of plants down, flip off the audience.

33:12

I played. I remember playing a show we

33:14

just started promoting Brick, and

33:17

we were playing a pretty big sold out show

33:19

in Princeton, and this was getting exciting.

33:22

And I started playing Brick and some people were talking.

33:24

So I could play that with one hand, play with

33:26

one hand, and I sang the song and just

33:29

with my middle finger in the air while

33:31

while I did it. It's crazy, it's silly stuff like

33:33

that. I remember playing the introduction to

33:36

Brick one time for maybe

33:38

twenty minutes till they cut the power off. I

33:40

didn't even start the song. I just did the introduction.

33:42

I don't know why. I just come

33:45

from I just you

33:48

know, some of probably my

33:52

let's say that I would say that that was the

33:54

rest of the steam control of my parents.

33:56

If I had to say my parents upbringing,

33:59

you know, like that was my angry Yeah,

34:02

I mean I was not that unusual for young

34:05

men to be angry. I don't guess a angry young

34:07

man like it's a cliche. That was

34:09

me, you know when that was I was so fortunate

34:12

to be able to do. I took it out in two ways,

34:14

comically by acting like a complete

34:17

clown and doing things that were totally

34:19

self destructive. Remember doing a big interview

34:21

on MTV where you can't see this over the radio

34:24

or over a podcast, but I stuck the bottom of my jaw

34:26

out. You know, I

34:30

don't know why I did that. I couldn't

34:32

tell you. I just I guess I didn't want to be on MTV that

34:34

day, or I thought it was funny, or there was something

34:36

self destructive about it. That kind of It's

34:38

like pushing on a sore tooth, like he

34:41

has sore tooth, and you just feel like, howd of curiosity

34:43

you'll press on it? I think

34:45

that makes for an attractive rock star, especially

34:47

if you're playing piano. I mean, I can see the marketability

34:50

in it too. Everyone likes the you

34:53

know, we like that. And then I think

34:55

at the point that those things snowball, you know,

34:57

like if you start into a temper and then it just takes

34:59

over. Needs to stop. You needed

35:01

to stop it. Was there a point you thought, yeah, this needs

35:03

to stop. Yes, I realized

35:05

that many

35:08

things about my life from my career weren't

35:11

going my way, and I found myself

35:13

in circumstances which were much more grown up,

35:16

you know, like I'm really became concerned

35:18

about music education

35:20

for kids, Like, Wow, what I gained

35:23

so much for having music in my class? Can I

35:25

give back a little bit? Well, the more you

35:28

do that, it's just kind of like not nice

35:30

for me to walk on stage at the Kennedy Center

35:32

and talk about music therapy, curate

35:34

a night of symphonic music, and then

35:37

go to the rock club next door and smash a

35:39

bunch of shit, flip off the audience, and cuss

35:41

all night. I just doesn't seem like the

35:43

same person. I felt like I needed to grow up. I'm

35:46

not precious about it. I'm quite happy to do

35:48

any of that stuff. I thought it was funny, but it can

35:50

become it's like a gag

35:52

reflex. It's like once you start gagging,

35:55

you know, like you need to kind of stop yourself. We'll

35:57

be back with ben Folds after the break.

36:04

We're back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with

36:06

ben Folds. There's another theme in

36:08

your book, which is about

36:12

being cool. You never felt cool, and

36:14

I think you always wrestled with what

36:18

was cool, what wasn't cool? Should we be cool?

36:20

I think you mentioned you mentioned some

36:22

of your early albums you really almost played over the

36:25

songs because you wanted to kind of and

36:28

you wanted a punk rock attitude even though you were

36:30

doing these kind of songs. And then, incredibly,

36:33

the lesson is kind of crystallized by

36:35

William Shatner. Yeah, can

36:38

you just tell a little bit of that story because it's a great

36:40

story. So in the studio it

36:43

was Shatner and me and Joe

36:46

Jackson for a lot of it. We're talking

36:48

about Joe Jackson, the British singer. Jackson, the British

36:50

sing not Michael's father. Right,

36:52

that's great. Yeah, I didn't get anything from that

36:55

guy. Um, I

36:58

won't even make a joke there. Um, listen

37:01

to ord Joe said. You know, I wasn't

37:03

allowing myself to have a mentor. But here's

37:05

another guy, you know, William Shatnell. He's

37:07

not a musician, so it's not a threat. He in

37:09

a He's in an industry where it's

37:11

okay to be older as an actor, so

37:14

maybe I was more open for whatever reason. He

37:16

told me something I needed to hear, which he

37:18

said, Benny, what is cool?

37:21

And I was like, what do you mean? He goes, you have

37:23

said the word cool? Oh the day long?

37:25

Like he just like was pounding me about

37:27

this cool thing. And I was like, well, why should explain?

37:30

You were producing his record? Yeah, yeah, it's back up.

37:32

I was producing William Shatner's record and writing

37:35

a lot of the music for it and bringing the songs

37:37

of his life to music.

37:41

I think it's a great record. I say in the book, it's one

37:43

of my proudest moments. You don't get the chance

37:45

to make a record that's never been made. That record was never

37:47

made before or after a beautiful record. And

37:50

that's because of that's because

37:52

of Shatner's willingness

37:54

to be vulnerable and willingness

37:56

to be for real and not worry about what was cool and

37:58

what was not. You know if someone said was

38:01

that take good? And said, yeah, cool, you want to go to

38:03

dinner? Cool? I think that vocal

38:05

was cooler than the other. Would it be

38:07

cool if we did this? And it's like he's

38:10

like, there's a lot of words in the English language, Benny, because

38:13

you don't have to use that one for you. What's your what's your

38:15

hang up with it? What is cool? I was like, you know,

38:18

cools this or cools that? Because no, no, no, no, I need

38:20

you to define the word that is so so

38:24

such a wide net that it can mean everything

38:27

that you made it mean today. Can you do

38:29

that? No? I can't, because we'll

38:31

think about using other words then and think about what

38:33

your hang up with that word is? Why

38:35

are you so hung up with that word? And I thought

38:37

about It's like, well, I didn't realize that I was, but

38:40

I guess I am. But I started noticing my my

38:42

my peers were all the same. They're staying cool all

38:44

day long too. I started

38:46

to think that cool itself probably

38:49

damn near ruined music. In my era, people

38:51

were so much more concerned with being cool than

38:54

they were like good music

38:56

sometimes that you know, they often

38:58

made music, good music despite it, No one talks

39:00

about how incredibly I

39:04

would say, I'm trying

39:07

to choose a better word than cool, because honestly

39:09

I just about say cool, How incredibly cool.

39:12

Kirk Cobain's chords were, They're

39:15

so interesting. His voice

39:18

leading is very interesting.

39:20

Well, no one ever talked about that. You know,

39:23

he did the ultimate cool thing you could do in The Knights,

39:25

which is he killed himself. What cooler?

39:27

He put his money where his mouth was. We were

39:29

also fucking miserable in the Nyes and he

39:32

like did it. I think it's terrible.

39:34

It's a terrible thing to celebrate the man for, to

39:36

celebrate him for that. You know, I remember talking Dalliot

39:38

Smith and he was horrified that people were celebrating

39:41

the depressive part of

39:43

his songs. He

39:46

didn't seem as depressive. He was offended

39:48

by that. It's like, these are songs that are getting

39:50

me through. There's positivity in them. I'm

39:52

going somewhere. I've written this song. It's a beautiful

39:55

song. Why is that depressing? Hating

39:57

when people call my songs depressing? Is That

39:59

was his take on it. One day, and so I

40:01

think we were so caught up with this being cool that

40:05

it did get in the way sometimes of just

40:07

judging something his music. But you

40:09

know, my use of the word cool in songs

40:11

probably a little more interesting because

40:14

I think what I realized was what I didn't feel

40:16

cool. But then I realized,

40:18

no one does. No one feels like the cool

40:20

one. Maybe one motherfucker does, but mostly

40:22

mostly people don't feel like they're the cool one. Right,

40:25

So if you write a song where you admit, like

40:28

the song Underground, which starts one of the

40:30

first songs in my career, which goes, I

40:33

was never cool in school, I'm

40:35

sure you don't remember me. It's

40:38

a little bit of a also a nod to Jesus

40:40

Christ Superstar, which is quoting

40:43

a musical in the nineties. Really,

40:46

that's uncool. What was

40:48

the part of Jesus Christ Superstar

40:50

you acquitting? Oh, okay,

40:53

fast, we have a problem here.

40:56

Yeah, okay, don't don't get me started, because I think

40:58

I can sing the whole Pharisee

41:01

scene in the original voices, So don't get

41:03

me going awesome. See, but this is that's where

41:05

it's from, and it breaks into the what is

41:08

it what miracle

41:11

one ro fools. Yeah,

41:14

that's right. It's no armies fighting, no

41:16

slogans, totally. One thing I'll say for

41:19

him, Jesus is cool at

41:22

that we because I

41:25

love that album. But that's

41:29

OKAYO fans, we have a problem

41:32

here. Yeah. I

41:34

was never cool in school. I'm sure you don't

41:36

remember me. That was where I was coming from. The

41:38

reason that song did

41:40

so well, especially in places like you know in

41:43

the UK where it charted in the top

41:45

forty, the top ten or something like that has a radio hit.

41:47

Um it is because no one felt cool.

41:50

That was my discovery. You know, like

41:53

all the rock stars before my

41:56

era came along, most of them were really

41:58

really cool, Like they

42:00

just seemed like the person you wanted to be, but

42:03

you weren't that person. So there needed to be some

42:05

balance. Who is the who is

42:07

the me up there on the stage that can

42:10

say that they're not cool and struggle

42:12

with it publicly, with what they're

42:14

gonna wear, not feel like they know what to say

42:17

at the party, feel like they're not invited at the party.

42:19

They're not cool. Those were big themes in the

42:21

in the ben Folds five records, and then we

42:23

played piano living room furniture.

42:26

Piano's living room furniture was not a rock instrument.

42:28

It's been a rock instrument one or two times. The guys

42:30

had to light it on fire to prove that they were cool. I'd

42:33

throw piano stools at to prove that I was

42:36

cool. I mean, you've actually now had

42:38

a long career. Did you always know it was

42:40

going to work? You went through a lot of jobs. Yeah,

42:42

you work in a grocery store, so did I? So I

42:45

watch that part. I didn't work at

42:47

a Hearty's. But

42:49

you did a lot of stuff. You played. You

42:52

were a solo polka band

42:54

in a German restaurant. You did a lot of

42:56

stuff. Did you know through all that that

42:59

your songs were going to one day succeed?

43:02

I think I did on some level. I

43:05

was terminally frustrated

43:08

and insulted by the universe that

43:11

most of my twenties went by the

43:13

radio played NonStop

43:16

through the decade, and not a note of my music came

43:18

out of it. I thought people were idiots for not

43:21

putting my music there. That

43:24

was my young man, you know, cockiness

43:26

about it, And so I became pretty

43:30

pretty bitter. I mean, I was that guy.

43:33

I was like, you know, working these jobs

43:35

like you know, waiting tables or something, or

43:37

playing like a polka band like you said, and

43:41

feeling like, you know, I

43:43

deserved way more and my

43:46

songs are the best songs ever written. And I

43:48

thought all that stuff what happened. When

43:50

it happened, then you

43:54

know, I felt like, yeah, I

43:56

probably, you know, I

43:58

probably need to be here that so I feel more like myself

44:00

now. I felt like I needed to have a voice

44:02

at the table as it were, or whatever it is that they

44:05

say, and you need to be on

44:07

the same page or I

44:09

need to come on board whatever pirate ship business

44:12

language. I need to be at the party. But

44:15

once I was, I found and I

44:17

think I mentioned this briefly in the book

44:20

because I've found that it's it's

44:22

not satisfying ever because you become

44:24

popular like you think that you should be, which

44:27

as I remember sitting with a hero of

44:29

mine from the Archers of Loaf Did you know that

44:31

band? They were a punk band from Chapel Hill,

44:33

North Carolina. The probably sold about forty thousand records. I

44:35

think Kurt Cobain was a big fan of them

44:38

back in the day, and they lived in my neighborhood, you know,

44:40

And I was sitting in the van with Eric,

44:42

who was the main guy. I was like, how many records

44:44

do you sell? Because I never even made a record before

44:46

he goes we sold forty thousand records, like

44:49

Jesus, forty thousand records. That's huge.

44:51

I can't imagine doing that. Of course, when

44:53

we were selling seventy thousand records a week

44:55

in a couple of years and that wasn't enough, I

44:57

thought, oh man, that's that's not enough. Because

45:00

you can see these guys they got

45:02

a commercial with that the Verve

45:05

song. They got a Nike commercial. Damn

45:07

we needed a Nike commercial. They just creamed

45:09

us. Now they're selling two hundred thousand records

45:12

a week and we're selling seventy. And my song

45:14

is just as good as Sarah say. You go through that crap,

45:16

and you know you have to best

45:19

to admit it, best to admit that your ego was

45:21

duped and you should get out of the business of that. So

45:24

I try try not to really worry

45:26

about it as much anymore. You're going to sometimes

45:28

it's a business that is. Your

45:32

life is affected by approval. You

45:34

know, if people approve and they give

45:37

me money, or they applaud my life is better,

45:39

and I'm supposed to not read

45:42

what's written about me, or I'm supposed to not notice

45:44

what the sales are on something. It's

45:46

hard to do. I think you candy couple

45:49

of them. But I think it's best to admit instead

45:51

of being so cool and saying, oh, I don't pay attention

45:53

to my reviews. I don't care what anybody

45:56

thinks. It's like, boy, you need to go some therapy.

45:58

You do care what people think seriously,

46:00

but you have to admit that first. I do

46:03

want to ask you about one more thing speaking of being cocky,

46:06

which is E've done this for years in concerts, even

46:09

on it with orchestras, and I'm incurred

46:11

everybody to go to YouTube and watch this. Uh

46:14

you call it RTB yes,

46:17

which is rock this bitch? You

46:21

composed something on the spot? Is

46:24

it? Is it from audience members? How do you? It

46:27

can come in different forms? Basically

46:31

the history of it is it was we

46:34

were making a live piano solo piano

46:36

record, one of my favorites. I

46:38

think it's I don't know, I haven't done more

46:40

of that, but um an

46:43

audience guy, an audience yelled rock this

46:46

Bitch. I think he meant he wanted

46:48

me to play louder and faster. Maybe I was playing

46:50

too slow, played too many ballads. The

46:53

kid wanted to rock. And it's like, well, I don't,

46:55

um, I don't know that one. UM. Let

46:57

me see if I can make one up. And

47:00

so I made up a song and it ended up on

47:02

the live record called rock this Bitch. I

47:05

was that was freestyle completely and it was kind

47:07

of the revelation was it

47:09

held up with other stuff on the record disturbingly

47:12

well and people

47:16

ask for it every night then, because then it became a thing.

47:18

They say rock this Bitch, and I would have to make up a new

47:20

one, and a new one, and a new one, a new

47:22

one. All of them I think are probably

47:25

different. They may overlap in some way, not

47:27

on purpose. The idea is

47:30

that when someone says rock this Bitch, then

47:32

I have to do it. Let's

47:35

start making up a song. I've learned so much about

47:37

songwriting that way, and I tried to impart some of that

47:39

the best I could. It's very difficult to articulate

47:42

what I learned about songwriting, but one of the things

47:44

I've learned is that a

47:47

song is so wonderful

47:50

If it sounds as though the singer and

47:52

the audience are all discovering it together. It

47:55

doesn't sound like it was there before. It sounds

47:57

like it's coming out of the earth, which

48:00

is a very Beethoven idea. You know

48:02

that that it is there already,

48:04

and it's just it's you're a font and it's coming

48:06

out. When we d

48:09

and paste form the

48:12

first versus, let's say,

48:14

is eight bars and has particular cadence.

48:17

If we cut and paste that idea across the

48:19

next two verses, that's normal.

48:21

That's a normal form when you are

48:24

rt being if you're a freestyle in a

48:26

song, you can't really remember

48:28

exactly what you did in the first verse, and

48:31

you try to approximate it. But you're a new person

48:33

and you're discovering a new thing, so you're

48:35

it's a new take on that verse,

48:38

and so it is unfolding in a way

48:40

that songs normally don't unfold.

48:43

And I find it very effective and I learned

48:45

a lot from that all because

48:47

you know, a song really

48:51

could be seen if it's a three and a half minute song could

48:53

be seen to have only taken three and a half

48:55

minutes to actually invent the

48:58

rest of it was all an editing process, stuff

49:00

that you didn't use and thinking about it and stuff.

49:02

But the actual song is three and a half minutes. It

49:05

should sound like a discovery. And when you teach,

49:07

you say it's a very effective thing to teach to

49:09

make people do it. Very effective because

49:11

one it keeps you from being precious

49:14

also you want. The other thing you learn about it is

49:16

that you know, like life, it's

49:19

hills and valleys. It's not all

49:21

like up up up up up, like

49:23

like an American musical. It's like it doesn't all have

49:25

to be better, better, better, better better. It

49:28

can be like oops, snore,

49:32

amazing snore. That's

49:34

life. It works that way. Or mistakes. You

49:36

make a mistake while you're writing a song, it's like, I really

49:39

wish I hadn't gone here? How are you going to get out

49:41

of this? In real time? Is actually

49:43

of interest to the audience. It's also

49:45

energy that that is compelling

49:47

a song. I learn a lot. I think the songwriters

49:50

ought to have to freestyle a song every night,

49:52

I really do. I think they don't

49:54

think they can do it. But something

49:56

comes out. Something will always come out.

49:59

And when you find yourself in the lull. Like I say

50:01

in the book, the beauty of this

50:03

exercise is you have to write yourself

50:05

out of it. We edit those things

50:07

out when you write a song,

50:09

and we're crafting a song, and there's nothing really wrong

50:11

with that. It's just that when you're more in control about

50:13

it, that you want it all to be all killer

50:16

or no filler. But that's not really what a good

50:18

song is. You know, you ask someone like, what's

50:22

what's two or three songs that you love. We're gonna listen to

50:24

them tonight. You have a beer, listen to some great songs,

50:26

and then you listen to him the guys going, I love this song.

50:28

I love a song too. Why do you like it? I

50:31

like it because of well, wait a minute,

50:34

oh there was what we'll

50:36

run it back. It was just a little moment sometimes

50:39

and it was the getting there. They think it's

50:41

the whole song that they liked, but it's like, what do

50:44

you like about those words? Actually? I don't like the verse

50:46

verse. I just like that part where he says

50:48

this, I like this thing. It's like, well,

50:50

those first words that he didn't

50:52

care for got you there. And I

50:55

think it's important not to write everyone

50:58

like they have to be a punchline, not to write everyone,

51:00

And so they have to mean anything. They have to be

51:02

real, and they have to be getting you to the next moment

51:04

and those moments in life where it's like, if you had a

51:07

moment in your day, you had a good day. That's

51:09

the way it should be in a song. But you can't have the moment

51:11

in a vacuum. You have to get to the moment. And

51:14

so when you learn freestyling, a song

51:17

is all these things that you just don't put your mind

51:19

to when you're really thinking about proper songwriting.

51:21

And it has I don't know if it's

51:23

improved my songwriting, but I've learned a lot

51:26

by it. Okay, so before

51:28

you go, yes, can I ask one more favorite? Sure? Can

51:31

you rock this bitch? Oh?

51:35

I guess so. I mean the first thing, it's

51:41

just something comes out and you don't know where it's

51:43

going. I

51:48

didn't think then

51:50

I would have to

51:53

write a song in

51:55

a podcast. That's okay,

52:05

Well, I see there's a mistake, so I'll go with it. Five.

52:14

I didn't know i'd have

52:17

to see And now my

52:20

voice is crusting. I

52:24

just woke up. It's

52:26

a day off. There are

52:29

no days off

52:31

when you're rocking this bitch

52:34

in a podcast, rocking

52:38

this Bitch with Bruce, I

52:42

am rocking this bitch. They're

52:44

gonna edit out the stupid

52:46

ship and make me sound

52:49

like I'm smart rockness.

52:52

But it's a minor

52:55

chord. We don't know what's going to go from there. Fabulous,

52:57

Thank you, you rocked it. Thank you so much. It's

53:00

been wonderful all right. Thanks

53:06

to Ben Folds for sharing some incredible insights

53:08

into his life in the world. You can hear

53:10

all of our favorite Benfold songs on my playlist

53:12

at Broken record podcast dot com, and

53:15

be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

53:17

dot com slash broken record Podcast.

53:20

There you can find extended cuts of our new and old

53:22

episodes. Broken Record

53:25

is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason

53:27

Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric

53:29

Sandler in our new intern Jennifer

53:31

Sanchez, and as executive producer

53:34

find Me a Little Bit. Broken Record

53:36

is a production of Pushkin Industries, and

53:38

if you like Broken Record, please remember to

53:40

share, rate, and review our show on your podcast.

53:43

Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond

53:46

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