0:15

Pushkin. Ann

0:20

Wilson is the powerhouse lead singer of the

0:22

band Heart, who celebrated classic

0:24

debut album Dreamboat. Annie came out

0:26

nearly fifty years ago.

0:29

Last week, we featured an interview with her sister

0:31

and longtime bandmatee Nancy Wilson, so

0:33

make sure to check that out if you haven't already. Today,

0:36

we'll hear from Anne, who's responsible for belting

0:39

out and co writing some of Heart's most iconic

0:41

early hits like Magic Man, Barracuda,

0:44

and Crazy On You. Four

0:46

years older than Nancy, Anne was the first

0:48

Wilson's sister to join Heart, a band that

0:50

started out as a cabaret cover band. Despite

0:53

undergoing multiple lineup changes since the seventies,

0:56

Heart has released top ten albums in

0:58

nearly every decade in the last fifty

1:00

years and sold over twenty million

1:02

albums worldwide. Outside

1:05

of Heart, Ann has also released solo material,

1:07

including an album in twenty two three with her

1:09

band Tripsitter. On today's

1:12

episode, Lea Rose talks to Ann Wilson about Heart's

1:14

current world tour and the Elton John albums

1:16

she sings before every show to warm up

1:18

her voice. Anne also explains

1:20

how she would strategically play guitars around

1:23

her house when having parties at her Seattle

1:25

home in the nineties to encourage jam sessions

1:27

with guests like Lane Staley and Chris Cornell,

1:30

and she remembers singing on stage with Grace

1:32

Slick and Stevie Nicks, who

1:34

Anne says really is a witch, but a

1:36

good one.

1:40

This is broken record liner notes

1:42

for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman.

1:45

Here's Lea Rose's conversation with Ann

1:47

Wilson of Heart.

1:49

Have you reimagined the band at

1:51

all this time going out? I know it's been five years

1:54

since Hart has toured. How

1:56

has the band changed?

1:58

Will the band has changed completely?

2:01

Because nothing about it

2:03

is the same except me and Nancy.

2:06

Well, Ryan Waters was out

2:08

in twenty nineteen, and

2:10

this time we have the

2:12

Tripsitter Band, which is my solo band

2:15

as part with Ryan

2:18

Waters and Nancy and I and

2:20

it is a fantastic group. It's

2:22

just wow. Blows

2:25

me away every time we go

2:27

and play some of these old Heart

2:29

songs. You know, with this group

2:31

of people, they just they

2:34

understand the music and they just totally

2:38

explode into it. It's amazing.

2:40

And the trips that our guys are. From

2:43

my understanding, they originally were session

2:45

players in Nashville.

2:47

They were, and they have

2:50

reached a point in their careers, all

2:52

of them where they don't want to do

2:54

that anymore. Is a way of life.

2:57

They want their own band. They

2:59

don't want to just be working, you

3:01

know, working for other people, doing what other people tell

3:03

them to do. They want to be in

3:05

a band where they have a say and

3:07

they have ideas that get used and you

3:11

know, it's a real band. And that's

3:13

what we have with Heart at this point.

3:16

You know, Heart's had many many iterations

3:19

over the decades, different

3:22

lineups and different kinds

3:24

of things. Sometimes it's more acoustics.

3:27

Sometimes it's way rock and

3:30

grungy, almost like in the early two

3:32

thousands, and sometimes

3:36

it's pretty traditional a classic

3:38

art. This is something completely

3:40

new. I mean, it's huge in some

3:43

points, really passionate.

3:45

The dynamics are incredible.

3:48

I mean, I can't say enough good stuff. I guess

3:50

I'm just waxing.

3:52

How do you practice when you're in a rehearsal

3:54

space before you go out on tour? How

3:57

can you practice to play arenas since

3:59

the physical space is so different.

4:02

Well, what we hear is what we

4:05

have in our heads. So that's

4:07

what we practice, not trying to go

4:09

out and address every foot

4:12

of airspace in those places

4:14

because that's impossible. And

4:17

all the different minds, I mean, if

4:19

it's a full house in a big

4:21

place, it's it can

4:23

be up to twenty thousand different

4:26

minds you know that are out there. Yeah,

4:28

and how do you talk to that? So

4:30

you can't. You just have to get out there and be

4:33

completely inside the music and

4:35

inside the lyrics and be

4:38

there, really mean what you say,

4:41

be present, be authentic,

4:43

be all the way there. You know, that's

4:45

the only thing you can do.

4:47

When you're performing. Do you tend to lock

4:49

eyes with certain people in

4:51

the crowd or do you

4:54

find yourself just looking past the

4:57

audience?

4:58

Well, I don't make an effort to lock eyes

5:01

with any one person because they

5:03

think that you mean something by it. You

5:06

know, maybe you do, maybe you do mean

5:08

so thing by it. But I tend

5:10

to be in my head sort

5:12

of and fluid inside

5:15

of this big sound

5:17

pool that we're creating.

5:19

It sounds awesome.

5:21

Yeah, so I'll look out

5:23

and I'll look at the

5:25

whole panorama. Yeah, if

5:27

they've got things lit or if it's all twinkle

5:30

here or something that's pretty amazing

5:32

to see from the stage.

5:34

Heart's getting ready to celebrate your fiftieth anniversary.

5:37

You've seen the crowds

5:39

change so much over the years, and now everybody

5:41

has the cell phone. Yeah,

5:43

does that change the performance

5:46

for you? The energy of the crowd?

5:48

It does change things, I gotta say,

5:51

especially when they come up to

5:53

the front of the stage and they

5:55

turn around so that you're in the backdrop

5:58

and they want to take a selfie with

6:00

you as a background, you know. I mean,

6:02

that's that's really distracting, you

6:05

know, because you just want to sort of jump

6:07

out of the way, you know, because it's it's yeah,

6:09

I'm not a backdrop, you know. But

6:12

I mean, to be fair, it's

6:15

a big night for them and they want to

6:18

preserve some little memory of it, so right,

6:21

why not let them have it.

6:22

I think I've read that you have an extensive vocal

6:24

warm up before you go on stage. Can you share

6:27

some of that with us? What you do to get

6:29

ready?

6:30

Yeah, I warm up for about

6:33

forty five minutes to an hour, and

6:36

I used to try and do classical

6:39

like ruin scales and stuff like the vocal

6:41

coaches teach you to do. But

6:44

I couldn't sustain that. It's just too boring.

6:46

So I finally found

6:49

out that my throat and soul

6:51

are just as warmed up if I

6:54

find a couple of records

6:57

that I love and just sing

6:59

along with the whole thing. Like for

7:01

a while last year I was doing Elton John

7:04

Captain Fantastic in the Brown Dirt Cowboy,

7:06

just sing along with the whole record every

7:08

song, and then if

7:11

there's still some more time, find another one. Sing

7:13

along with that. Wow and lo

7:16

and behold, your throat is warmed

7:18

up. It's not just your throat, it's

7:20

your whole ability to just

7:22

be open, you know, your soul.

7:26

When did you realize that you had such

7:28

a powerful voice.

7:30

I've never thought it was that powerful myself,

7:34

except for a few moments in

7:36

a few of the songs like Crazy and You that

7:38

are high and sustained notes. And

7:41

it's different when you hit a note

7:43

and just hold it, then if you hit

7:46

a high note and just go all squirrely all

7:48

over the place. And I've never

7:50

been much one for vocal

7:53

gymnastics.

7:55

They're like Mariah Carey runs right.

7:58

Yeah. I like to sing them just simple.

8:01

So when I realized I could do that I thought,

8:04

most people don't do this this way,

8:07

so I must have something. But

8:09

I don't sit around on my some kind

8:11

of laurels going wow, you

8:14

sure have a strong voice. I think

8:16

my kids would tell you that I have a strong voice.

8:22

Or people at a birthday party when I

8:25

sing Happy Birthday along

8:27

with the crowd.

8:28

Oh, I would love to hear that. Wow,

8:31

So that's fascinating. You don't think you have a strong

8:33

voice.

8:34

Well, I mean there's some mighty fine singers

8:36

out there. Yeah.

8:38

Who are some of your favorite singers right now?

8:41

Well, I always loved Uton. I

8:43

think he in the early

8:45

days. He was one of the people who

8:48

influenced me the most. Right

8:50

now, I would think that Billie

8:53

Eilish. I love the way she

8:55

sings. I mean it's

8:57

so refined and so restrained

9:00

and just calm,

9:02

you know, beautiful. Yeah,

9:05

so that I admire that, I really do.

9:08

Have you tried to do something like that just

9:10

to play around and see how it would sound.

9:13

It's all in the song. Yeah,

9:15

if you hit the right song that has that in

9:17

it, then you can do it. I think. Yeah.

9:20

And she and her brother, I mean the stuff

9:23

they write kill her stuff. I

9:25

love to see them at these

9:27

big awards shows, just cleaning up, you know, because

9:29

it's so you know, anti

9:32

establishment, you think so. Yeah,

9:35

I mean, here she comes wearing

9:38

this total alternative

9:41

outfit whatever it is, whichever

9:43

thing she's at, and she

9:46

looks beautiful. Her brother is

9:48

just there to support her. They're just you

9:50

can tell that they're friends, yeah,

9:52

and that they're they're really tight,

9:55

you know. I love that.

9:58

I listen to you and Nancy's

10:01

audiobook Kicking and Dreaming and

10:04

was just sort of amazed at

10:06

how strong the

10:09

family mythology is in

10:11

your family, and it really

10:14

seems like you kept going back

10:16

to the early days

10:18

of your family and the stories that were shared

10:20

in your families when it came to songwriting

10:23

and decisions you made in your life.

10:26

And at one point you were talking about this letter

10:28

that your dad wrote to your mom where he

10:31

was basically proposing to her, and

10:33

how that was like the single most foundational

10:36

work that sort of kept inspiring your

10:38

songwriting.

10:40

Yeah.

10:40

Do you still feel that influence

10:43

now?

10:44

Yeah, I'll always feel influenced by both

10:46

my parents because they were liberal,

10:49

they were bohemian, they were romantic,

10:52

and they were smart. You know, they

10:55

were both intellectuals and

10:57

they managed to find each other, you know, and

11:00

their love of poetry and literature

11:03

really inspires all

11:05

my songwriting, and I think Nancy's

11:07

too. Were both we're

11:10

both pretty romantic.

11:11

Yeah, when you left home, when

11:14

you left the Seattle area, you

11:16

moved to Canada, right when

11:18

Heart was hocus focused, before the band was

11:20

even called Heart, and

11:23

you were living with your first boyfriend,

11:25

your first love. Did

11:27

that live up to this mythology

11:30

in your mind of your

11:32

parents' bond and their romantic

11:35

love.

11:36

Boy, Yeah, it sure did at the beginning.

11:38

Yeah, it's just like all love

11:41

affairs, you know, at the very start,

11:43

it's so as

11:45

Joni Mitchell says, it's so righteous at the

11:47

start, you know, yeah, and just

11:50

powerful and beautiful. But

11:53

you're young, and your expectation

11:56

makes it be just that makes it be mythology.

12:00

It can't survive in the real world,

12:02

you know, it has to. It has to break

12:04

down because it's too perfect and

12:07

that's not what this world is like and what people

12:09

are like. Especially when

12:11

you fall in love with somebody, you idealize

12:13

them to the point where they're

12:16

just gonna do everything for you, They're going to

12:18

be your everything. And the

12:20

minute you do that that's when it starts to break

12:23

down. I think, Yeah,

12:25

you got to let people have space,

12:28

give them the right to be human

12:30

and the right to be imperfect and

12:33

not do everything for you.

12:35

When you wrote Magic Man about

12:38

that relationship, were you

12:40

ever embarrassed or

12:42

did you find yourself holding back because

12:44

you didn't want your mom to see things that

12:46

might have been a little bit scandalous at the time.

12:50

Well, holding back.

12:52

I think that leaving

12:55

home and running off to another country

12:57

with a man was about

13:02

was not holding back. But

13:05

yeah, you know, like I didn't rub it in her face

13:08

that suddenly I was just off

13:11

sleeping with somebody, right, And

13:14

she was, for all her romanticism

13:17

and love she had for our father, she was pretty

13:20

victorian when it came to sex and stuff. So

13:23

that was not something that went down easy between us.

13:27

She just didn't want to think that I

13:29

was up there blowing it. And

13:31

that was in the pre Roe v. Wade

13:34

days before it was legalized.

13:37

We're back there now. But so mothers

13:40

were extremely fearful

13:43

of their daughter's running off and getting

13:45

into wild sexual relationships

13:48

and ending up pregnant, not knowing

13:50

what to do about it, and you know, basically

13:52

their lives being ruled

13:54

by that fact from then on.

13:57

Do you remember having conversations with your mom

14:00

about that where she was warning you, like, look,

14:03

this is what could happen to your life.

14:06

Yeah, she put it differently, though she couched

14:09

it more in h well,

14:12

this is not dignified. You

14:16

know. She didn't want to have the talk

14:19

and get all clinical and everything. She

14:21

didn't really want to do that, but

14:24

she found a way to do it. And it was well,

14:27

if you just go up there and

14:29

become barefoot and pregnant, you know, that's

14:32

like pretty trailer park trash. Oh

14:35

and I guess that wasn't enough

14:37

to scare me off.

14:40

Yeah.

14:40

I thought it was interesting because some of

14:42

the lyrics and magic Man you it's almost

14:44

like you're trying to convince your mom about

14:47

how wonderful this guy is. You know, he's a

14:49

magic man Mama.

14:50

Yeah, Well we

14:52

had many phone calls where she I

14:55

was up in Canada in the

14:57

cottage with him, and she wanted

14:59

me to come home. She's, yeah,

15:01

you got to come home. You're too young for this. You

15:03

know. I was at nineteen, so

15:06

I was old enough.

15:07

Yeah. I was so surprised to too. And

15:09

maybe it's not surprising for the time. But while

15:12

you were in Hocus Pocus, you were

15:14

the front person in the band. After

15:16

gigs, you would come home the band was all living

15:19

together. You would come home and

15:21

cook everybody dinner and do all

15:23

the laundry and do

15:25

all the like homemaking duties.

15:29

Yeah, that didn't last that long.

15:32

I mean, at first I thought

15:34

how how sweet

15:36

it was to wash the sheets and

15:38

hang them outside in the fresh

15:40

air so that and then put them back on

15:42

the bed, you know, and try and make

15:44

a dinner out of some brown rice

15:46

and a couple of onions, you know. But

15:52

and for a while

15:54

we lived up there in a cabin,

15:57

a cottage thing with Roger

15:59

Fisher and his wife who

16:01

had just gotten married and received for a

16:04

wedding gift of fifty pounds sack of brown

16:07

rice, which we

16:09

all ended up living on because

16:12

we didn't have any money when we were putting the band

16:14

together. So we just date brown rice

16:16

and drank water and called it the Georgia

16:18

Shawa brown rice diet,

16:21

you know.

16:22

And you can do that back then when you're twenty,

16:25

yeah, and everybody's fine with it, that's

16:28

right. And that was before

16:30

Nancy joined the band, Yes.

16:32

She joined later in nineteen about

16:35

seventy three.

16:37

We have to take a quick break, and then we're back with more

16:39

from Anne Wilson and Lea Rose.

16:46

We're back with Lea Rose and Anne Wilson.

16:49

How did the band change for you when Nancy joined?

16:53

Well, I was really glad because

16:56

I felt that art had gone about

16:58

as far as it could go. We didn't

17:00

have a very good vocal section.

17:03

I mean, we didn't have a very

17:05

good ability at harmony singing,

17:08

and we did have an acoustic guitar player,

17:11

so we were stuck doing

17:13

rock and roll songs, you know, like Johnny

17:16

be Good and Walking the Dog and

17:18

all that kind of stuff that the guys did,

17:22

and there was kind of almost

17:24

a whole part of the

17:28

soul of the band. It was missing for me because

17:31

I had come from doing

17:33

folk groups with Nancy, where we did heavy

17:35

harmonies and we both played acoustic

17:37

guitars, and that's so when she joined, she

17:40

brought that element. She's a

17:42

fantastic harmony singer and

17:44

a great acoustic player. So all

17:47

of a sudden, heart had a heart, you know, and

17:50

we just got kind of what

17:52

Led Zeppelin had, which was it

17:54

can go as rock as you want, but it can

17:57

also go as tender as you want

17:59

down at the very center. Yes, and

18:02

that was really satisfying to me.

18:06

Early on you talked about doing

18:08

you have sort of like a mini led Zeppelin

18:10

cover section in your shows,

18:14

and one night led Zeppelin actually came

18:16

and saw you play.

18:18

Well, they didn't stop and watch us, They just walked

18:20

through the room.

18:22

Did you see them walking through?

18:24

Yeah? It was a club in

18:27

Vancouver called oil Can Harry's and

18:30

they had a big showroom and then they

18:33

had a big party room upstairs,

18:35

and so we saw them kind

18:37

of trooping through after their concert at

18:40

the arena. You know, when

18:42

they're done with the Glory gig, they come and

18:45

have a party upstairs and oil Cans

18:47

and yeah, we saw them and we all just about lost

18:49

it.

18:50

I mean, I imagine they just looked like the sexiest

18:52

rock stars on the planet. Oh

18:54

yeah, yeah. And then the full circle

18:57

moment of having performed

18:59

at the Kennedy Center for when

19:01

led Zeppelin was getting honored. How

19:04

did you prepare for that show

19:07

mentally? Was that completely

19:10

intimidating to you or are

19:12

you able to just sort of switch into show

19:14

mode and go out there and do your thing with

19:16

full confidence.

19:18

I think that that night I

19:20

needed an extra measure of meditative

19:24

calmness because I didn't want

19:26

to go out there and start

19:28

to think about it. You know, that's

19:30

what you really don't want to do. Not

19:33

only was led Zeppelin in the audience, but the

19:35

you know, the President and first Lady, and

19:37

the audience was just packed with

19:40

all these different luminaries and famous

19:43

people of all ILKs.

19:46

So I just remember saying to Nancy,

19:48

let's just pretend like we have

19:51

bowls of water in our heads and

19:54

we have to walk out there without spilling

19:56

a drop and just concentrate

19:58

on the water on the song, right,

20:01

and nothing else, just be in

20:03

the song. And so we did, and

20:06

it turned out to be a fun experience

20:09

and one that went

20:11

really smooth, and nothing went

20:14

wrong, and it was great because

20:16

you know, after all, what could possibly

20:18

go wrong in a situation like that.

20:22

It's such an emotional

20:24

performance, and the footage after

20:27

where you see you know, Robert

20:30

Plant and the band, they're sitting there with tears

20:32

streaming down their face, and then you

20:34

see Barack and Michelle Obama sitting there

20:37

and John Bonham's son is

20:39

playing with you all on drums. It's just

20:42

so incredibly moving. Yeah,

20:44

what a feat. It's beautiful, beautiful performance.

20:47

You sounded incredible.

20:49

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was. It was quite

20:51

an experience, never to be forgotten.

20:54

I read at one point that you opened for

20:57

the bee Gees.

20:58

Yeah, that was real early.

21:00

Did you have any sort of interaction with

21:03

them another family band?

21:05

I don't think at that point we got

21:07

to interact with them. At that point

21:10

we were pretty much a little

21:12

cabaret band in Canada,

21:16

and the Begs

21:18

were doing across Canada tour and

21:21

they needed an opener

21:24

and we'd only done one

21:26

opening show before that for Rod

21:28

Stewart, so we were by no means

21:31

ready for that kind of exposure,

21:33

but we got up and did it. You know.

21:36

I was always a huge Beg's fan. All

21:39

their different eras and

21:41

their psychedelic era

21:44

and even the disco time

21:47

and all that. I just thought it was all great.

21:50

So yeah, it was really fun standing

21:52

on this side of the stage and listening

21:54

to them live after

21:56

we were done, you know.

21:58

And so that was already after the first album

22:00

was.

22:00

Out, Yes, pretty

22:02

soon after the first album was out.

22:05

What do you remember about recording that first album?

22:08

Do any of the session and stand out in your memory.

22:11

Yeah, I just remember going from zero, from

22:14

knowing nothing, absolutely nothing about

22:16

being in the studio, to

22:19

Mike Flicker, who was our first producer,

22:22

mentoring me to be able

22:24

to sing a lead vocal on

22:27

the songs, Like the first

22:29

one I ever sang was Crazy on You, and

22:32

we were actually doing Crazy on You in

22:35

clubs at that point, and Magic

22:37

Man. We hadn't written Barracoutie

22:40

yet, but those two

22:42

other songs we would, you know, we'd

22:44

play our normal club set and

22:46

then we'd sneak Crazy

22:48

on You in and we'd sneak Magic

22:50

Men in and see what the audience

22:52

did. And at first they were kind

22:54

of like what, And then they

22:58

never heard that song before, so

23:00

they were used to let Zeppelin and

23:03

Elton John and the other stuff.

23:04

We were playing the stuff they know.

23:07

Yeah, and then by bit they

23:09

started to respond to those two

23:11

songs live till

23:14

it happened that they were actually coming

23:17

unglued. They were applauding and

23:19

standing up and liking those. So

23:21

we pulled him out to when we

23:24

went and opened for the Bechis and Rod Stewart,

23:26

we actually dared to play our original.

23:29

Stuff, and didn't you get a huge reaction

23:31

when you opened for Rod Stuart because it had been on the radio

23:33

at that point.

23:34

Yeah, we didn't really know

23:37

it. The communications

23:39

in those days were not like they are now, where

23:42

you know everything that goes on with your

23:44

record every minute, you know, and

23:48

we didn't really understand that dreamboat

23:50

And he was being played in Montreal

23:53

by this disc jockey named Doug

23:56

Pringle. He believed in

23:58

us and he played the record. So

24:00

when we got to Montreal opening

24:02

for Rod Stewart, we walked out on

24:04

stage to a house full of lip

24:06

matches because they knew our recorda

24:09

we were just this little opener. But wow,

24:12

you know. So that was just

24:14

a way that we started out in Canada.

24:17

Did that motivate you to want to go in and

24:19

immediately start writing more songs

24:22

and continue with that specific

24:25

sound of the songs that were doing well

24:27

at the time.

24:29

Yeah, we wanted to just go ahead

24:31

and keep on writing, you know. And just the

24:34

experience of writing the first two songs

24:37

was so great and

24:39

just so much fun that we

24:41

just wanted to keep going. And some

24:44

of the songs we wrote were more rock,

24:47

but then there were a whole bunch of songs on Dreabo

24:49

Eddie like Dreamboat Eddie and love

24:52

Me Like Music, I'll be your song, how deep

24:54

it goes, Soul of the Sea, ones

24:57

that are really soft at the middle.

24:59

So it's a mixed bag on that record. Nobody

25:02

could really put their finger on what we were

25:04

going to be, whether it was going to be a

25:06

rock band or what.

25:08

Did you like that sort of keeping people

25:11

guessing or was that more like

25:13

you didn't know what you guys were.

25:16

We didn't know. We were just formulating,

25:19

you know.

25:20

Yeah, which album would you

25:22

say, out of your entire discography

25:24

is the most true to what

25:26

you think the band does best.

25:29

Maybe a Little Queen because it

25:31

has Right of Me, go On Cry

25:34

and Barracuda, and it's

25:37

got good ballads and it's got good

25:39

gas rockers, you know.

25:41

Yeah. Do you remember

25:43

where the photograph for the cover of Little Queen

25:45

was taken?

25:46

Yeah, it was taken in Elesion

25:49

Park in LA and

25:52

they took us to Western Costumers and

25:55

got the gypsy clothes. In

25:58

fact, I was wearing my own clothes that day, but

26:01

everybody else was dressed up like a gypsy and

26:04

rented a gypsy painted wagon

26:07

and a goat and a horse and all

26:09

all this stuff and set up a scene.

26:11

What were you listening to at that time? So that came

26:13

out in seventy seven? What was

26:15

on the radio? What were you into?

26:18

Wow? Seventy seven, still

26:21

listening to Elton John, listening to

26:23

Steely Dan, listening to Moody

26:26

Blues and Rolling Stones.

26:29

It's all kinds of cool things.

26:31

You know.

26:32

You grew up having hoot Nanny's in your house,

26:34

playing instruments with family, singing

26:36

songs, and then later

26:39

when you lived in Seattle, you would

26:41

have these big parties and have a

26:44

lot of the people who became like the

26:46

all stars of the grunge movement over

26:49

and just jam and have fun and play. Around

26:52

that time in the seventies, were you doing anything like

26:54

that playing with other musicians.

26:56

We were mostly playing with the

26:59

members of the band up in Canada.

27:01

We didn't know a whole lot of other musicians.

27:04

It was different back then. We

27:06

were kind of we were the party

27:10

and we would have

27:12

more fun just jamming together on

27:14

stage. Off stage, it really didn't matter.

27:17

We've jam in the living room and then

27:20

back up and go out to the club and jam

27:22

there.

27:23

You know. Yeah, And at

27:25

that point, so the late seventies

27:28

did you foresee a long career for the

27:30

band or was it sort of you know,

27:32

day by day? How are you thinking

27:34

about the band's future.

27:36

Oh, we definitely had a five year plan. I

27:39

mean, our manager would not let

27:41

us get out of bed without

27:43

a five year plan. But

27:46

it was good because it made

27:49

sense. It wasn't just ambition.

27:52

It was more about, Okay,

27:54

we've gone this far. Now we've got

27:57

these songs, what else can we make?

28:00

You know, We've got Crazy on you, We've

28:03

got Barracuda, We've got all these

28:05

songs that are great. Now what

28:07

you know?

28:08

What did you do to stir up ideas

28:11

for inspiration for writing songs

28:13

once those big hits were out and established?

28:18

Yeah?

28:18

I think that many of our songs start

28:20

from the music, and then

28:23

once I, Nancy and I are

28:25

just me hear the music,

28:28

it suggests something and

28:30

then we start writing words and

28:32

then suddenly, lo and behold, you have

28:34

a song.

28:35

You know, do you prefer

28:37

to be by yourself at that point or do you

28:39

like to be with sitting with the other musicians

28:43

writing words.

28:44

I like to be by myself, no doubt

28:46

about it. But jamming

28:48

you have to be with other people. You

28:50

have your ideas and they have their ideas and

28:53

how they mix and you spark

28:55

ideas off each other and

28:57

you can tell when you hit on something and it's

29:00

great.

29:01

Would people in the band give you feedback

29:03

on your lyrics, say like, ah, maybe

29:05

this line should be tweaked.

29:07

A little bit occasionally.

29:09

How would you take that as a writer?

29:11

Well, if they did that, I would say, and

29:14

what would you put in its place? And

29:17

if they had a good suggestion, I

29:19

go, okay, we'll use that. Maybe.

29:22

If they didn't have a good suggestion, I'd say

29:24

shut up, not

29:28

literally shut up, but just

29:31

we'll keep it my way until you

29:33

think it's something better. You know.

29:35

Yeah, after the first

29:37

initial band disbanded,

29:40

people left and there was a new iteration

29:42

of the group. Was that really heartbreaking for you

29:45

or did you have hope that we

29:47

can create something new and

29:49

move on.

29:51

It's hard to describe what it was like when

29:54

that lineup disbanded,

29:57

other than to say that we

29:59

couldn't get along anymore

30:02

and things got really difficult

30:05

between us. You know. It

30:07

seemed like the that made

30:09

heart unusual, which was men

30:12

and women working together as equals,

30:15

was breaking down, and that very

30:17

thing was the thing that was driving

30:20

us apart from each other. We would

30:22

just squabble and write

30:24

down gender lines. It

30:26

would just be really difficult,

30:29

the men gossiping about the girls and the girls

30:31

gossiping about the men. And

30:33

it didn't help that, you know,

30:35

Nancy and I never looked that fondly on

30:37

the whole world of groupies and

30:40

having to explain to the band wives,

30:42

no, nothing goes on out there, you know, lie

30:45

to them all the time, and it

30:48

just got to be weird.

30:49

You know, when you reformulated

30:52

the band and then bring in more men,

30:55

did it feel like things are going to end

30:57

up differently this time or did it seem

30:59

like maybe it'll kind of play out

31:01

in the same way.

31:02

Yeah. Well, I always go into every

31:05

new iteration of the band totally

31:08

optimist, because

31:10

the world is full of good people and

31:14

just because you play out your relationship

31:16

with some people doesn't mean

31:19

you don't have one with others. And

31:22

we've been really fortunate to play

31:24

with some great musicians over the years,

31:27

men and women. And it's not

31:29

really important to us, to me

31:32

or to Nancy and I which gender it

31:35

is. It really isn't. It's just who

31:37

can do the job, who's a great

31:39

player, who's a great singer, who's

31:42

a great writer. And we worked with Holly

31:44

Knight and Debbie

31:47

Cheer and Denny Carmassi

31:49

on drums, and it's just some amazing players.

31:53

But we never again encountered

31:55

the same kind of emotional

31:57

hardship we did with that first lineup. I

31:59

think it was because we all started out

32:01

we were poor and destitute, and then

32:04

we had all the success and there was all this money

32:06

that came in, and money change

32:09

everything, you know, and everybody gets

32:11

kind of different.

32:13

Do you think they start to resent you because

32:15

you were the front person and getting a lot of attention

32:18

and Nancy and you are getting a lot of attention.

32:22

Yeah, there were some of that because

32:24

they were at the men and the band

32:26

were out there working just as hard

32:28

as us and putting

32:30

their bodies on the line too. But

32:33

yet whenever we did an interview, Nancy

32:36

and I were the only ones that got talked

32:38

to and got all the attention,

32:40

you know. And there's nothing much

32:42

that we could do about it. It's just how

32:45

it was. And it really

32:48

hurt the men's feelings and made them

32:50

angry. So I don't blame them

32:52

at all.

32:52

Really, Yeah, it's understandable.

32:55

Yeah.

32:56

Are you still in touch with the old members

32:58

from the original line up?

32:59

Yeah, we saw him just a

33:02

couple months ago when we played in Seattle. They

33:04

all showed up super cool. Yeah.

33:08

And then moving in to the eighties, that was when

33:10

you started the record label, when

33:13

you signed to Capitol started bringing

33:15

in professional songwriters.

33:17

Yes, how was that for you

33:19

as a songwriter and as somebody who had

33:22

been the face of this band for so long?

33:24

Yeah? I went back and forth on it.

33:26

It depended on the song. For

33:29

instance, I thought These Dreams was a

33:31

really great song, just

33:33

a beautiful song that fit Nancy's

33:35

voice just perfect. It was the ideal

33:38

marriage, you know. But some of the

33:40

other songs that came our

33:42

way that we did during the eighties, I

33:45

thought didn't have much substance and

33:47

were pretty calculated.

33:50

They were just different versions of what

33:52

was being played on the radio right

33:55

already. And uh,

33:58

I wasn't that fond of that, because you

34:00

know, I was there at the beginning

34:02

when we had all this

34:04

this beautiful idealism about

34:07

being poets and all that.

34:09

Are you glad now looking back that you

34:12

did it even though you were fundamentally

34:15

opposed to it at certain times? About what

34:17

you were singing. Are you glad you tried

34:20

it and stuck with it?

34:22

Sure? Yeah. It was a good experience

34:24

and it did teach me a lot

34:26

about songwriting, just

34:28

the basic lesson of you

34:31

don't tax people's attention

34:33

span. You just don't get all

34:36

selfish and just go, well, this is

34:38

my vision, Like you want

34:40

to talk directly to them, you know, and

34:42

connect with them. That's what a lot of those songs

34:44

in the eighties had. It was a good listen.

34:47

I love those songs.

34:49

Yeah, some of them are cool.

34:50

Super cool, and I bet the crowd loves

34:53

them when you play them live.

34:54

Yeah, like we used to do at

34:56

Lisa del Bello song called

34:59

Wait for an Answer that moves

35:01

through five keys and everything, and

35:03

it's just amazingly powerful

35:06

song. And

35:09

that taught me so much about

35:12

how you can have a very simple

35:15

idea and just repeat it

35:17

only take it up a key and then up

35:19

another key, up another key, and then

35:22

it just changes. Meaning every time

35:24

you go up with these dreams.

35:27

Is that the song that you said you can't sing

35:29

for whatever reason, there's something about that song

35:32

that you've tried it in karaoke and you can't

35:34

sing it.

35:36

I don't sound that good on

35:38

these dreams. The times I've tried it

35:40

at karaoke. Yeah, it's just there's

35:42

something about it. It's I feel

35:45

awkward singing it and I sound awkward.

35:48

That's Nancy's song.

35:50

Do you still not sing all I want to do?

35:53

We haven't done that for a long time.

35:55

Is it going to come back out?

35:57

I don't think so. There's a lot

35:59

cooler stuff that we can bring out than that.

36:04

That song had a big influence on my

36:06

It was very eye opening as a younger.

36:10

Yeah, and just

36:12

not in a very cool way. But

36:16

now I'm being my mother. You know, that's

36:19

my mother talking.

36:22

We have to take another quick break and then we'll be

36:24

back with more from Leo Rose and Anne

36:27

Wilson. We're

36:32

back with the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with

36:34

Anne Wilson.

36:36

In your book, you talked about some of the compromises

36:38

you made in the eighties were a devil's bargain,

36:41

which you were wearing, the types of songs

36:43

you were performing. How did

36:45

you manage to push past that era?

36:49

Oh? You just live one

36:51

breath after another, you know, you just keep

36:53

on going. And I

36:56

always believed in heart,

36:58

I always believe that we would emerge

37:01

from that, and that we would

37:04

come up again and be writing our own

37:06

type of music about

37:08

the things we wanted to write about, and that

37:11

people would like them, maybe not on

37:13

the same massive level, but on

37:15

a level.

37:17

Does that matter to you if as someone

37:19

who as a musician has experienced

37:21

both the massive arena level

37:24

and then also you do a lot of small shows

37:26

that are very intimate as

37:28

a songwriter, as a musician, as

37:30

a singer, does it matter to you? Or

37:33

is all that matters is just performing?

37:36

When I'm doing it, It's all that matters

37:38

is just the performing. I

37:41

think other people care more about the level

37:43

of success than I do. You know, I've

37:46

been accused of not

37:49

caring enough about writing commercial

37:51

songs, and I admit

37:54

I'm guilty. I just want

37:56

to write lovely songs.

37:58

I want to write cool stuffs.

38:00

Are you writing right now?

38:02

Yeah? I am, And I'm

38:04

just about to go down to Nashville and

38:07

hang out with the Trip Sitters and

38:10

write some more songs.

38:11

What about the love Mongers? Are they ever going to get

38:13

back together?

38:15

Oh? Love Mongers? Yeah? Now that

38:17

was a vocal group. Yeah, that

38:19

was some gorgeous vocals.

38:22

I don't know, I hope. So that

38:25

was a fun band. It was really fun.

38:27

So that was Nancy, yourself and your

38:30

old friend Sue.

38:31

Uh huh, and our other friend Frank

38:34

Cox. Frank has a beautiful

38:36

tenor voice, and I

38:38

was playing bass and singing. So

38:41

we had really a good three part

38:43

harmonies and we

38:45

could do whatever we wanted. We didn't

38:47

do much heart stuff. We used

38:49

the Love Mongers as an escape

38:52

from heart for a while. Just after

38:56

the eighties. We just we went into lovemngerland

38:59

for a while and just did whatever we wanted.

39:02

Is that around the time that you were back in Seattle

39:04

and starting to hang out

39:07

with some of the musicians that were coming up, And.

39:09

Yeah, and oddly

39:12

enough, a lot of those musicians

39:14

that were part of the Seattle

39:17

community then loved the Lovemongers

39:20

and we loved them,

39:22

and we'd all show up at each other's shows and

39:24

it didn't matter that it was at this little club

39:27

that it really didn't matter. Yeah,

39:29

it was just about the music and about

39:31

playing camaraderie.

39:33

You've said that musicians from Seattle

39:35

aren't just going to be nice about a

39:37

song because you're sitting there playing

39:40

it. They're really honest about

39:42

their feedback yes, they are. Yeah.

39:45

Can you remember a time where you were had

39:47

an interaction with a Seattle musician

39:50

and you're just like, oh yeah.

39:54

Jerry Cantrell, he told me on a number

39:56

of occasions it was one of the

39:59

ballads, the more commercial ballads

40:01

from the eighties. Maybe it was all I want

40:03

to do. But he just

40:06

said to me, that is such bullshit.

40:08

That is such bullshit now, Barracuda,

40:11

That's great, that's the shit, you

40:13

know.

40:15

And you're like, I agree with you, I

40:17

agree with you. When

40:20

everybody would come over to your house and play at those

40:22

parties, what would you how does that happen? Like

40:25

people start out drinking and then eventually people

40:27

pick up instruments and are just playing songs

40:29

or what was this scene?

40:31

Like?

40:32

Well, I was no fool. I would always

40:34

have in my living room. I'd have guitars

40:37

laying around casually, you know, laying

40:40

and a piano and a

40:42

couple of little amps. Usually

40:45

it would happen after somebody's concert

40:48

and everyone would show up

40:50

for the concert, and then whoever

40:53

was free afterward would show up at my house and

40:57

they'd all come in and start

41:00

drinking beers and smoking Ciggi's

41:03

and sitting up on my counters and just

41:07

then, pretty soon somebody had start to blay,

41:11

what do you remember being played then? And who

41:13

do you remember being there? I remember

41:15

one time John Waits

41:17

was there, Lane

41:19

Stay the Pearl,

41:22

Jam guys, the Artist's

41:24

spoon man, Chris Cornell and

41:27

Kim Thale and oh them.

41:30

What was it like singing with Chris Cornell?

41:32

Beautiful? He's like one

41:34

of those naturals, like he comes

41:36

from a musical family too. And not

41:39

only did I know Chris, I knew his sister

41:42

Maggie, who's a great singer

41:44

too, So it was

41:46

easy as pie to sing with chris beautiful

41:50

voice.

41:50

Yeah, was there ever any

41:53

stories about Jimmy Hendrix, another

41:55

Seattle musician, Like was he part of the Laura

41:58

at all?

41:59

I never met Jimmy myself, but I did

42:01

go and poke my head into Jimmy's

42:03

apartment one time.

42:05

Oh how did that happen?

42:07

When he lived in Seattle,

42:10

when he was just a young guy before

42:12

he blew the coop? You know. Yeah,

42:15

just I was going to art college and somebody

42:18

wanted to go pick up some weed

42:21

or something, and we stopped at

42:23

this little apartment

42:25

and they went look around

42:28

this is a famous apartment, you

42:30

know. I mean the people who were living there then

42:33

were not Jimmy. But look

42:35

around. This place has much

42:37

vibe, you know, yeah, trying to feel the.

42:39

Vibe, Jimmy, that's so cool. What

42:42

stands out in your mind when you think about

42:45

the seventies or eighties? What was the biggest

42:47

rock star moment that you had.

42:49

Once the band started to pick up notoriety,

42:52

we looked at maybe looked at Nancy, like,

42:55

whoa, this is big time.

42:58

As time goes along, you meet just about everybody.

43:01

They usually end up just being people, but

43:05

that doesn't mean they're disappointing. Meant

43:07

a lot of cool people and

43:10

some who yes, we're

43:12

just folks, you know.

43:14

Yeah.

43:14

You think they're gonna be like so grand

43:17

and everything, and then they're just

43:19

like, hey, Hi, how are you.

43:22

Well. I know that there was stories about you hanging

43:24

out with Stevie Nicks. That's always seemed

43:27

like.

43:27

Oh yeah, she jumped

43:29

on her plane for a few days. We

43:31

had a number one record, that's what it was.

43:33

That was The Magnetism, and

43:36

we were playing in San Francisco. She came out

43:39

to the show and got up on stage

43:42

with us and with Grace

43:44

Slick to sing on what About Love?

43:47

And after the show she said, gee,

43:50

I kind of hate to say goodbye to you guys. Where

43:52

are you going next? And they said, well,

43:54

we're going to Phoenix, And it just so happened that Stevie

43:56

has another house in Phoenix. So

44:00

she got on our plane the next day and

44:03

we all went out to Phoenix and went to her house

44:06

and hung out after our show. And

44:10

that's an eye opener. It's

44:13

cool because she's she's everything

44:15

she says. I mean she's a

44:17

white witch. I mean she's definitely

44:20

got her her self image down

44:22

and together. She's very smart,

44:25

super creative.

44:27

Did you get to sing with her at all?

44:29

Just when she got up on stage with us?

44:31

Okay, so when you're hanging out, you didn't sit

44:33

around singing, And.

44:35

No, we mostly listen to each

44:37

other talk. I

44:39

don't know. You don't have that much to say really

44:43

that you don't all feel

44:46

as a group because you are all going through

44:48

the same experiences.

44:50

How is that for you coming home in between

44:52

stops on tour, when you would go home and

44:55

see your parents and see your older

44:57

sister Lynn, was it hard to

44:59

relate to them and sort of come down from

45:01

being on the road.

45:03

Yeah, everyone tells you that you've

45:05

changed and that you're faking it,

45:08

you're not the same person, and you know,

45:10

like everyone's always really disappointed

45:12

in you because you're living

45:14

on this big, inflated level. But

45:17

that's how it gets. When you're out on those big doors

45:19

like that, you live in a bubble of

45:22

safety and security and

45:24

you're protected from people just

45:26

because, for one, you don't want to get

45:28

sick, and for two,

45:31

some people can be dangerous, so

45:33

you have to have protection from all

45:35

of that, you know, And you get used

45:37

to it and you go home and you're kind

45:39

of like, don't come near me, you know.

45:43

Yeah, I imagine you need a couple of weeks to kind

45:45

of reformulate.

45:47

Yes, indeed, does

45:49

that take.

45:50

A lot of mental preparation for

45:52

you to be removed from your space,

45:54

from your home and know you'll be sort

45:56

of a nomad.

45:57

Takes a lot of relaxation out

46:00

there. That's the main thing for me

46:02

is just to relax

46:04

enough to have fun with it

46:06

and not get all freaked out, you know

46:09

about not being home and

46:11

being tired or whatever. Like the

46:13

things that are hard about touring, which

46:16

is the travel.

46:17

Are you traveling on buses mostly

46:19

when you're in the.

46:20

US, Yes, on buses.

46:22

However, over in Europe they don't do that

46:24

anymore because of the European Union has

46:26

broken up, so you can't just

46:29

go from country to country on a bus. You

46:31

have to go through customs and

46:33

all that. The bus can't leave the country,

46:35

you know, So it's

46:38

much more complex now over there.

46:40

After taking the five year break

46:42

from touring with Heart, how

46:44

did you and Nancy come back together? Why

46:47

did you decide to tour now?

46:49

It was time, There was no

46:52

longer any reason to hold

46:54

off on it. I spent pretty much

46:56

all of last year touring with Trips

46:58

that Are, and we did a hundred shows

47:00

and seven months. I

47:03

thought, well, the time is right. Let's

47:05

see if we can bring back the big guns. And

47:10

she was into it. We had some negotiations

47:12

to do, who's going to be in the band,

47:14

what type of a show we're going to do, but

47:17

we we came to understandings

47:20

and all that.

47:21

I was looking through your Instagram and I saw that

47:23

you have some scattered posts

47:25

about meditation and

47:28

quotes from Ramdas and other things.

47:31

When you're talking about relaxation

47:33

before the shows, what are some techniques

47:35

that you use to get into a good headspace.

47:38

I like to listen to music that

47:41

is meditational, the space around

47:43

a drone, you know, just calming

47:45

down that way, breathing. I

47:47

don't want to build up. I want

47:49

to chill down before a show, so

47:52

I walk out there completely calm

47:55

and collected. And so those are the

47:57

main things. Is just relax

48:00

into it.

48:01

And then when you make that transition from

48:03

backstage to stepping out on stage

48:05

in an arena filled with people,

48:08

filled with energy, is it hard

48:10

to make that switch for you?

48:12

Well, it depends on how

48:15

tired I am. I guess if

48:17

it's a good night and everything's clicking and I

48:19

feel good, then it's not hard. But

48:22

if something's gone on, or you

48:24

know, something's wrong within

48:27

the band, like someone's sick or something like that, it's

48:29

a little harder to go out

48:31

there with all the engines, the

48:33

resting.

48:34

At what point in the tour would you say

48:37

is the best to see heart Would

48:40

it be in the beginning parts of the tour,

48:42

the middle, the ladder.

48:44

And Oh, that's impossible

48:46

to say. I think it's different

48:49

every tour. I don't know how

48:51

this band is going to develop because

48:53

It really is like a development over

48:55

a tour. You go out

48:57

and you're just you've fresh

48:59

aut rearsal and everything's just

49:02

all perfect, and then you start

49:05

to open up like a big flower.

49:08

Yeah, you figure out

49:10

where it is that the audience and yourself really

49:12

connect and grow with those

49:15

places. So if you

49:17

see us halfway through the tour, it's going to be different

49:19

than the first couple of nights.

49:21

Yeah. Do you have the same set

49:23

list every show or does a set list change?

49:26

It will change. We

49:28

have a bunch of stuff worked out that we

49:31

can interchange whenever we like,

49:33

and sometimes we're writing so

49:36

things can just be popped in. So

49:39

yeah, it'll change definitely.

49:41

Is there any sort of preview you can give us about

49:44

what type of show it will be.

49:46

It's gonna look beautiful. It

49:48

is gonna be a combination of

49:51

heart songs, no covers, all

49:54

heart songs, and

49:56

a couple of new songs, a new

49:58

Nancy song and a new and song.

50:00

Tell me about the last thing you've written that you're

50:03

really excited about.

50:05

Oh, I just got through making an

50:07

album with Trips that is

50:09

called Another Door and came

50:12

out so good. That is what I'm

50:14

really proud of. Right now, because

50:16

I was the sole lyric

50:19

writer on all the songs

50:21

and it really taught

50:23

me a lot. I learned a lot about how

50:25

to do it and just when

50:28

to edit myself and when not

50:30

too. You know that's so important.

50:32

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk

50:35

today.

50:35

Nice to talk to you. Thank you.

50:40

Thanks Dan Wilson for talking about heart storied

50:42

history. You can see Anna her sister Nancy

50:44

on tour with Heart through December, and

50:46

you can hear our favorite songs from Heart, along

50:48

with their various side projects on a playlist

50:51

at broken record podcast dot com.

50:53

Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

50:55

dot com slash broken Record Podcast,

50:57

where you can find all of our new episodes.

51:00

You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

51:03

Broken Record is produced and edited by

51:05

Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric

51:07

Sandler and Jordan mcmill. Our engineer

51:10

is Ben Tollinday. Broken Record

51:12

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51:35

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51:37

I'm justin Richmond.