0:08

Pushkin. I'm

0:12

at Jack White's house in Detroit. There's

0:14

over a dozen of us there. Jack's

0:16

eighty eight year old mom is in the front room, greeting

0:18

everyone as they come in. His older brothers

0:20

there too, sawars, some folks from the Third Man record

0:22

label, Jack Runs, Malcolm Gladwell

0:25

and I are sitting in amazement. The

0:27

Rack and Tours, Patrick Keeler, Jack,

0:29

Lawrence, Brendan Benson, Jack White

0:31

are hanging on Jack's sun porch, warming

0:34

up, playing the blues of

0:36

the thirty or so number one Billboard albums.

0:38

This year, only four have been rock albums,

0:41

and one was The Rack and Tours Help

0:43

a Stranger. Jack

0:45

and Malcolm first met in Nashville to talk about

0:47

Elvis for Malcolm's other podcast, Revisionist

0:50

History. Malcolm got the grand

0:52

tour of Jackson State in Tennessee, where he

0:54

and most of the band live now full time. After

0:57

that, Malcolm would jump at any chance to hang

0:59

with Jack. So when the invite came to tape

1:01

a broken record episode with the band in their native

1:04

Detroit, we leaped at it. Even

1:06

Rick Rubin phoned in for it. You'll hear him turn

1:08

up a few minutes into the conversation. This

1:12

is a fun one.

1:16

This is Broken Record Season three. Liner

1:19

notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin

1:21

Richmond. Just

1:25

a quick note here. You can listen to

1:27

all of the music mentioned in this episode on

1:29

our playlist, which you can find a link to

1:32

in the show notes for licensing

1:34

reasons, each time a song is referenced

1:36

in this episode, you'll hear this

1:39

sound effect. All

1:41

right, enjoy the episode. Before

1:44

Malcolm and Rick's conversation with the Rack and tours,

1:46

the band kick things off with a great cover of

1:48

Donovan's Hey Jip Dig the Slowness.

1:53

Wait, that's the one where you

1:55

thought of swapping out Cadillac for Tesla.

1:57

Yeah, we were talking about it. I want

2:00

don't we modernize if we're doing the cover of this.

2:02

You know, all the old songs, the

2:04

rock and roll and blue songs are always Cadillac,

2:06

this and that. So this this song had Cadillac

2:08

and Chevrolet and the original head I think the

2:11

Mustang was a Memphis Mini song. I

2:13

think he was taking his thing from and we're

2:15

talking about Donovan, and so we thought,

2:17

why don't we modernize, Let's let's put it in something like

2:20

But we're like, oh, this just sounds silly. And then

2:22

we just brought up this whole conversation of why

2:25

why is it such a hard thing to interject

2:29

modern technology into the lyrics

2:31

of rock and roll or blue songs? Because

2:35

hip hop and country can do it

2:37

and I and they're expected to almost

2:39

expected to you, like in modern countries. I mean, I don't

2:41

know, you could look some up or something, because I don't really

2:43

I'm not that familiar with modern country lyrics. But

2:46

when I'm listening to the radio Nashville, it's always like something

2:48

like you know all that shit,

2:50

and like, yeah,

2:53

I hope so, because that's a that's a hit, that's

2:55

a hit. We laugh,

2:57

But that actually, you know what

2:59

I mean, like why are they? And then hip hop it's

3:01

you can drop any modern reference and you're expected

3:04

to its supposed to like whatever's hip this week,

3:06

you know, let alone, uh

3:09

not twenty nineteen. So but

3:11

when rock and roll, if you do it, it's kind of it's

3:14

kind of goofy. I mean, it brings

3:17

up the idea, like I was talking sending you

3:19

the idea of this phonograph lyrics,

3:21

you know, hello, hello, oh Rick,

3:24

oh hey Rick, Hello, Hello, how are you? We're

3:27

all good? We're sitting here with the

3:29

Rack on tours. Hey, Rick, Hey, Rick,

3:31

Hey, what's happening? They just

3:33

played a it's an old Donovan song which

3:36

references I'll buy you a Cadillac,

3:39

and we were asking the question why can't it be

3:41

updated to I'll buy you a Tesla AX? And

3:45

why why is it you can't? Why is it

3:47

you can do modern references in country songs

3:49

but not in rock and roll songs.

3:51

That was the question on the table. I think you can

3:54

know. I would

3:56

love to. I would love to hear Jack singing

3:58

about the Tesla AX. Yeah. I'm

4:01

gonna give you example. I'm gonna do uh, just a second

4:03

of a Phonograph blues, Robert Johnson

4:05

Phonograph Blues. So we got like

4:08

a But if

4:10

that was a hip hop track, I'm sure

4:12

you know this Rick better than the most you

4:15

could say that if you put the right new

4:17

beat on it, not

4:19

only is it gonna work, it's actually

4:21

expected. But there's something about rock

4:23

and roll and blues to me. I always feel like,

4:25

if you can't there has to be a mechanical

4:28

thing to have it have romance to it, Like

4:30

if it doesn't have if it's if you yeah, everybody's

4:33

still singing about trains, and even guys never even

4:35

seen a train in their life can write a song

4:37

and put a train in there. But if you say

4:39

mono rail people mover or

4:41

whatever, and if that doesn't make

4:43

any sense, it's not romantic. If you

4:45

we're talking about electric car set of an old Cadillac,

4:48

all of a sudden, it's not romantic. But then

4:50

ultimately you limit the rock and roll vocabulary

4:53

to that. I don't think. I don't think

4:55

agree with you. I think that's a that's a self

4:57

imposed limitation that maybe

5:00

that's what it's gonna take. Maybe that's

5:02

what the reinvention of rock and roll sounds like.

5:04

It's modern references. I don't know, Almo,

5:06

I think rock and roll has this like lyric

5:09

Lyrically, it's always been mysterious.

5:11

I think, you know, like almost like a I mean, even

5:13

the Blues they were like speaking

5:15

like you know, such slang. I mean, it was like, you

5:17

know, you couldn't easily understand what they're talking

5:19

about. And it's continued on, like what's

5:22

Mick Jagger mean by that? But if Robert Johnson is

5:24

when he's saying, Beatrice, I love your

5:26

phonograph or whatever he's talking that was a modern

5:28

thing right then and there. That was a hot thing to have. A lot

5:30

only rich people had record players in a lot

5:32

of prices. Maybe more than that,

5:35

maybe it was, like you know, in that

5:37

day, a way of saying, you know,

5:39

I don't know, like secretly I'm in love

5:41

with you, or I don't know. Maybe it meant even

5:44

more like it was. I'm

5:46

just I'm talking about just the literal reference

5:48

of he's referencing a modern technological

5:51

device a phonograph right at that time.

5:54

If you wrote a blue song quote unquote right

5:56

now and you mentioned iPod or listening

5:58

to streaming service on your I phone, that's

6:01

not romantic. It's just it's kind

6:03

of sounds silly, and if you and maybe

6:05

it's something to contextualize with rock

6:07

and rolls place in culture

6:09

now in twenty nineteen, compared to hip hop

6:11

or or country music or modern

6:13

country music, which I don't really think is even

6:16

even is country music really anymore, But

6:18

the fact that they're expected to make really

6:20

current modern references in country music

6:22

for it to be a hit song, it's expectation.

6:25

But those guys, I think Williams wouldn't been

6:27

caught dead not singing out of Cadillac or something,

6:29

you know like that. It is this a problem

6:31

for that kind you're talking

6:33

about? Sort of the rock and roll vernacular

6:36

has a set of very specific reference.

6:40

Is that a problem that you can't kind of updated

6:42

easily? You did put clicking

6:44

and swiping into a rock Yeah, we can't

6:48

be done. We

6:50

had a song on there was said Brendan

6:53

actually came up with lyricists, don't bother me.

6:55

It's so but that's

6:58

that's what was in there. And he came up he said that though

7:00

clicking and swiping, And I thought that was funny

7:02

because it had like multiple meanings. It's not pointing

7:05

to a specific cultural

7:07

artifact. If you're playing with words,

7:10

you're winking. Yeah,

7:12

I did. I did a bid women sound song few

7:14

years ago called three Women, and his was like and

7:18

when I did it was I got three women

7:20

red, Blondie and Brunette and I when I went to the five,

7:23

I said, and I got

7:25

away with it there that was a blue song

7:27

done in sort of like a funky way. And I

7:30

said digital photograph And I was purposely

7:32

trying to break this idea

7:35

in might have but let's go back to

7:37

he made that comment just now, Jack that yeah, and

7:39

a lot of what passes for country today,

7:42

he said, isn't really country. Yeah,

7:44

talk a little bit about the distinction, you

7:46

see. You seem to say that there are some rules that apply

7:49

to country. That yeah, you

7:51

can talk specifically. I think someone who's in a

7:53

country artist might be able to tell you better

7:55

than I would have. But I think they'd also be afraid to say

7:57

it because they're very I

7:59

think they live in fear in that world because they

8:01

only have one radio format, it's country,

8:04

and if they don't stick to the formula,

8:07

they will not get radio airplay if

8:09

they try to do like if a modern country artist

8:12

without naming any names whatever, were to do like

8:14

a record an album as the same way Hank

8:16

Williams or Loretta Lynn had done in the sixties or

8:18

fifties, then they would call it roots

8:21

rock or Americana and it would never get played and it

8:23

would never get played on the radio, and it would become Okay,

8:25

he's trying to go roots you now, and it would be a

8:27

failure, I think, And I think

8:29

that's the scares them. They have to use really

8:32

computerized they're adapting, they're adapting

8:34

really quickly. They're evolving, you know, Like I

8:36

mean, the country music itself is changing.

8:39

I mean has been changing for so for

8:41

so long now, and finally it's become

8:44

anything goes. It's pop, it's rap, it's

8:46

whatever, heavy metal, so I mean

8:48

it's I mean, maybe it's kind of evolving for that read

8:50

out of necessity because there's only there. They

8:53

only have this corner of the market

8:56

or whatever, you know, so

8:58

in order to survive country music.

9:00

Well that's how big. That's how why Taylor's swift

9:03

got so more it's more gigantic as distanced

9:06

away from country and became more pop and

9:09

succeeded in doing so. Which is I mean, you're

9:11

talking about the most loyal fan base, and think in all

9:14

the genres is country music fans. I mean, if they

9:16

like you for one day, they like you to the day they die.

9:18

And the worst star where we came from the garage

9:21

rock hipsters who like you this week and

9:23

don't like you next week. Yeah, and that

9:25

idea of that you toggle back and forth

9:27

between Nashville

9:29

and Detroit is really interesting. I'm

9:31

just curious about how that affects

9:34

the way you make music. I

9:38

think one thing that happens is

9:40

you know, there's a lot. Yeah, I've met a

9:42

lot more fiddle players, you

9:44

know, like since I've been living there, or steel

9:46

players, and invariably

9:49

you invite one of them some you

9:51

know, just as a I mean, you just get to

9:54

know these people. They're cool, so you invite them down to play,

9:56

and soon they're appearing on your record.

9:58

And then people are saying, you

10:00

know, you've I see how you've you

10:02

know, you've taken on this kind of Nashville sound or

10:04

whatever, and it's like, well, actually

10:07

this person I mean, yes, I guess maybe

10:11

you could say that, but uh but in

10:13

reality, it was just this guy's so cool and I'm in

10:15

all of his skills. I love his He's

10:17

like he's crazy good, and it's I want

10:19

to be around that, you know. To add to add

10:22

to that, though, if you went nobody wants

10:24

to be boxed in in any case. So if you

10:26

were say we did all move to Nashville

10:28

and we actually became country singers

10:31

because of the environment, we would

10:33

probably be prone to not admit it.

10:35

We'd probably be prone when asked to say, oh no,

10:37

that's has nothing to do with this. We'd like country music

10:39

back when we live in Detroit, We're

10:42

not being pushed around or influenced

10:44

by our environment or whatever. But I

10:47

think wherever you go, it's not like when we

10:49

were in Detroit. It's not like we like the Stooges

10:51

because we're walking down the street we like the Stooges.

10:53

It's because the people were hanging out with like

10:55

the Stooges, and we like them too, and not just

10:58

means a cultural thing. In this area the country,

11:00

we're more prone to like the gorries of Stooges,

11:02

Detroit, Cobras, whatever. And if you're

11:04

down in Nashville, you're more prone to like Laretta

11:07

Lynn and Tammy Laynette. Would you say that

11:09

since moving to Nashville forgetting

11:11

the making of music, has your

11:13

taste changed at all? That's

11:15

a great question. Rick. I'm

11:18

gonna say I've been I've been

11:20

exposed more to country,

11:23

kind of pop country by my wife, and

11:26

she's like that stuff, and so I think

11:28

my I think I've come around slightly

11:31

to some of it, you know, just seeing

11:33

I can see some good and I'm not sure it's

11:35

changed my taste, but maybe it's broadened

11:38

my horizons a little bit. You

11:40

know. Have you written I have

11:42

an appreciation. So I have a very large

11:45

appreciation and respect for some

11:47

of those writers. I think they're super clever

11:50

and you know what I mean, And that's

11:53

sort of been country music for a long

11:55

time, kind of witty and clever. And

11:57

that could be like Florida Georgia line that has a

11:59

line maybe that's just like, oh, that's good,

12:01

that's good. You know, I appreciate that kind of

12:03

stuff. My appreciation goes to, like

12:06

I like the cleverness of the monster mash

12:08

and the cleverness of uh,

12:11

you know, uh, the novelty songs.

12:13

And if you there's is when you're

12:15

a songwriter and you're and you're thinking of something clever,

12:17

like I think this last record, Druis album, we stayed

12:20

away from clever in a lot of ways. It's

12:22

it's tempting to want to come up with a clever lyric,

12:24

but then you also can go pass

12:27

that line into novelty, well then

12:29

into not no emotion, no

12:31

emotion, no feeling, because it's that

12:33

clever is kind of like it's this Nie slapper

12:36

or it's like a jeez, I

12:38

mean not it's actually I take that back.

12:40

I mean sometimes it's just just so

12:42

good it's and I'm trying. I can't think of,

12:44

you know, any great examples right now. Is

12:47

there a song on this on this most recent record,

12:49

she thinks I still love her, you know, or something

12:51

like that. You know that song, Yeah,

12:54

she thinks I still care? I

12:57

mean, it's the whole song is

13:00

or the whole song is kind of just

13:02

this witty

13:05

it's so heavy. It's almost like in Loretta

13:08

Lindos at all the time, like there's a throwaway

13:10

that's the novelty hook to get you

13:12

involved. But the metaphors

13:14

once you get in there are so heavy and deep

13:17

that makes you giggle for a second kind of smile, but

13:19

then you're like, oh, whoa wait a minute,

13:21

Yeah, I think I think she thinks I still care is

13:23

one of the most amazing metaphors

13:25

ever written. As from a songwriting

13:27

standpoint, everyone can relate to that, like, yeah,

13:29

you know, but you could laugh forget her, forget

13:32

him, you know, like I need him, you

13:34

know. It's just classic man and then summed

13:36

up so perfectly in that song. But it's

13:38

because he's he does still care, right,

13:41

that's the whole point of that song. I remember

13:43

there's a Conway twitty song that

13:46

begins with all the things he has to do now

13:48

that his woman has left him. Yeah,

13:50

I remember I've canceled my subscription to the whole

13:53

Ladies Turn. And it's

13:55

like totally gimmicky, and then you start

13:57

to realize, oh my god, yeah, this guy's truly truly

14:00

Yeah, you know. It's what's interesting about it

14:03

is it's really sarcasm.

14:05

Yeah, and it's not unusual to

14:07

hear sarcasm. Let's saying a Bob Dylan song,

14:10

but lines might

14:13

be sarcastic, it would, the

14:16

premise of the song is almost

14:18

never. I can't think of an example where

14:20

the premise of the song is based

14:22

on sarcasm. Right, you're right, right, it's

14:25

hook lines to hook you in with sarcasm. But

14:27

the deeper meaning of it is actually

14:30

But I go so far as to say that

14:32

that's the all great songs are like that,

14:34

that that the story is what you're trying to convey.

14:36

You're communicating a story. The music,

14:39

the melody, all of it's a trick. It's

14:41

all of a way to trick you into the story. Well,

14:43

hopefully there are many levels too, Right, there's

14:46

to trick you in, to get you. The

14:48

beat is a trick. The title the song's

14:51

a trick, that the melody is a trick. And

14:53

I don't mean that in an insulting sense a way. It's

14:55

there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, and I think that's when.

14:58

But it's just to manipulate your feeling and

15:00

your emotions and to make you sad, make you cry

15:02

like this, this feels you know, this is

15:04

great? Or this you know, you make some sort

15:06

of sound that sounds you know, whatever

15:09

the decord, you know, the ultimate? Do you

15:11

do it? Do you would you say you do

15:13

that consciously? I do sometimes

15:16

I think so yeah, and and probably fail

15:19

most of those times. I'm

15:21

conscious of it. And then

15:23

other times, you know, I mean, songs kind

15:25

of creep up on me later, much later, and I think, wow,

15:29

man, I you know that's cool. That's

15:31

really deep, you know, it's it moves me in a different way.

15:33

Maybe it hits me differently, and I think, oh, okay,

15:35

I think that was a successful song.

15:37

You know, is there a song on the latest album

15:40

that strikes you in retrospect as a Nashville song,

15:42

a song you would would only have written

15:45

because you moved to Nashville. Maybe

15:47

thoughts and prayers and thoughts and prayers as Yeah,

15:50

that's the last song on the record, kind of

15:52

has that vibe to it. Can you pay a little

15:54

bit and then explain what sort of Nashville

15:56

about it? Let's discover maybe we can discover

15:58

the way I

16:01

love that song. Wait, can that song get played

16:04

on country radio? No? Absolutely,

16:07

you know, it's really it's really more it's

16:10

more Southern rock than it is kind I think

16:12

you're right, Rick, Yeah, yeah, it has that

16:14

feeling to it. It's sort of like those incorporations

16:16

of those sort of luck that

16:19

kind of cowboy Yeah,

16:23

it makes me think more of like Leonard Skinner

16:25

and Molly Hatchett than it does country

16:28

music. You know. Yeah, So like

16:30

on paper, if you were going to write a story about

16:32

a garage rock band from Detroit then moved

16:35

to Nashville who has songwriting sensibilities,

16:38

you might say that they're gonna turn into fuckinglerd

16:40

Skinner. I don't know. You

16:44

are Southern rock not necessarily not necessarily

16:47

a bad thing. Yeah, not a bad Wait. Can

16:49

you can you talk a little bit about how that

16:51

song came about? It was like

16:53

a little demo I did it. I thought maybe it wasn't

16:55

really that interesting, but Brendan kind of heard

16:57

something in it, and we were testing it out.

17:00

It was more minor key, I think, wasn't it all

17:03

minor? And

17:06

then we changed you changed it to major D

17:08

and brought some sort of my brightness too? So

17:14

is that all you began with or did you beat? Yeah?

17:16

And I had that was like I was

17:19

trying to write lyrics like I wouldn't normally write,

17:21

trying to like pretend I was a different songwriter writing

17:23

those lyrics. I would never write, why why does the grim

17:25

Reaper creep? How

17:27

does the Grim Reaper creep? If he doesn't really have the

17:29

time? I mean, that's me. When I wrote that down was to

17:32

trying to be ridiculous to myself, like

17:34

what another songwriter would write, like why no? Cross

17:37

that out? I was trying to go into that territory

17:39

or Joe, trying to shake myself up a little

17:41

bit. And I had heard I had heard a pick.

17:44

What's that? Did you pick? Did you pick

17:47

a character for that songwriter? Or

17:49

was it just not you? Was it rooted

17:51

in either anyone you love

17:53

or a combination or a fictional character?

17:56

What's the character? Actually? It's a It's like

17:59

I won't say the name. But I heard I heard

18:01

a reference on the radio, driving in the car, heard

18:03

a reference in the radio that pissed me off so much.

18:05

It was a reference in a song that was someone trying

18:07

to be clever and modern.

18:09

And I won't say what it was, but to

18:11

me, that made me write this line of I

18:14

wrote a letter down to you like I'm Sullivan

18:16

Blue. I was trying to say, like if I had

18:18

took this goofy song writer and said, hey, listen,

18:20

why don't you instead of that reference, why don't you reference

18:23

something that actually has some staying power, some

18:25

longevity to it, instead of saying that person's

18:28

name, Why don't you say Sullivan Blue and let

18:30

people go and learn about Sullivan Blue in the letter

18:32

he wrote in the Civil War and maybe

18:34

that. So it's almost like I was pretending

18:36

to workshop with this songwriter

18:38

kid who doesn't know what he's doing. You know.

18:41

It's kind of a strange, crazy,

18:43

off the left field thing to do. But so

18:46

you're literally driving down the road. Had you heard

18:48

that song before, No, so you're hearing it for

18:50

the first time, and then you the song makes

18:52

a reference and you're like, oh,

18:54

yeah, you can do better than that. Yeah,

18:57

it's I think you should care enough.

18:59

I think a lot of people don't say that I'm dumb enough

19:01

to say that in interviews and stuff, you know, Like they say

19:03

like that that that that's you know enough.

19:05

I can hear that and it pisces me off. But I

19:07

think that you should care enough about your craft. If you're

19:10

an architect and you drive it down the street and you see some ridiculously

19:13

built, constructed house in a neighborhood where it doesn't

19:15

belong you, you have two rules of all.

19:17

You can be like, oh, hey, I'm easy going man, everything's

19:19

cool, sure man, whatever you want, you

19:22

know, or you'll be like no, rid absolutely,

19:24

you're like you know. Frank Windwright used to call all the glass

19:26

building architects the glass box

19:28

Boys, which always thought would be a great name

19:30

for a band. But

19:33

it's great, but his his

19:35

his love of the craft. You

19:38

when you're turned angry at times by your love

19:40

of the craft, When you see someone getting away with

19:42

something ridiculous, I think it should anger you

19:44

a little bit because it makes you love what you're doing all

19:46

that much more. I love the idea that you could

19:48

be inspired by something

19:51

that you don't like to

19:54

make something better and new that you

19:56

wouldn't do otherwise. That's really interesting.

19:58

Yeah, I think I always just

20:01

feel like I learned more from what not to do

20:04

than what to do. And there's these moments where

20:06

I think I just popped in my head talking about modern

20:08

country, like when we when the Grammys were on last year,

20:10

like Brandy Carlisle, when she's saying I was like, oh my god,

20:12

that's how it's done. That should be country

20:15

music right now. That should be what all

20:17

country music writing should strive for. Is

20:19

what she just did on Alive on the air.

20:21

What was it specifically about what

20:23

she was doing that you that you would drive I

20:26

believed her. Yeah, it was beautiful. It

20:28

was like undeniably beautiful. You don't

20:30

have to be country, you know, a country fan or

20:32

a fan of hers even to know that that was gorgeous.

20:35

But voices other world Ye, yes,

20:38

yes, but you gotta want to know. You

20:40

gotta want to You know, there's there's artists

20:42

out there. You hear them sing, and they could do a beautiful job

20:44

and sing gorgeously, but I don't believe them. If

20:47

I don't believe them and I don't trust them, then I don't

20:49

care about their songs. How do you, I

20:52

mean, is that something that you worry about with

20:54

your own music? Yeah, be believable.

20:56

Well, the dream would be it would just be great to

20:58

just be put out because all the people that we look well,

21:00

I can I can speak for everyone in the band, but I can assume

21:03

but that the people that we love and admire

21:05

and idolize, the songwriters and the musicians

21:07

throughout history are the ones

21:09

we don't know much about. I don't really know that much

21:11

about Hank Grahams, I don't know that much about Robert Johnson.

21:14

We grasp at little crumbs to learn about

21:16

them. But I'm glad we kind of don't have that many photographs

21:18

of Charlie Patton and Robert Johnson because I

21:20

think we'd probably destroy the mythology

21:23

and you wouldn't just

21:25

be in love with that stuff as much. And nowadays you

21:27

see everything of everybody's life all

21:30

day long and there's no mystery at all.

21:32

So in order to be a believable character like

21:35

oh, like say Brandy Carlisle, I do trust her and

21:37

I believe in her. I still don't

21:39

know that much about her, but from first impression I

21:42

trust her, you know, isn't it interesting

21:44

that the better the

21:47

singer, the harder it is

21:49

to trust them. Do you get that? Do you

21:51

feel that experience at all? Yeah? They can kind of

21:54

They can fool you, can't they They can trick you.

21:56

Yeah. Well, you could have, like say, at national

21:58

level studio session with a bunch of musicians,

22:00

and there'll be a couple of like virtuosos

22:02

there who are maybe like school taught

22:05

or union or whatever kind of things like

22:07

that, and after a minute you kind of

22:09

get that vibe like mm, too

22:11

too good, too clean, too

22:14

too nice enough, not enough

22:17

kind of soul. We'll

22:20

be back with more from Jack White and Brendan Benson

22:22

after the break, We're

22:27

back with more of Malcolm and Rick's conversation

22:29

with the Rack and Tours The Good.

22:32

I'm interested this notion of imperfection being

22:34

somehow appealing and perfection being seeming

22:37

phony. Is there a

22:39

really good imperfect song, A

22:41

Rack and Tours song, that good imperfect song that you

22:43

like, that you love because of it's

22:46

of it's how rough it is, or how imperfect

22:48

it is, or how kind

22:51

of They're all a little bit like that in various

22:53

forms. You know. I think I not

22:55

to say where you were you like, but I think I

22:58

bring maybe bring that to that. That's what I bring

23:00

to the table for you. That's what makes what what

23:02

the songwriting you do in your own world

23:05

where you are are. He's a song

23:07

craftsman, and I'm not really that.

23:10

I'm not good at that. He's very good at crafting

23:13

the song perfectly, and I'm

23:15

more. My talents lie more and very

23:17

being very rough from perfectly and and I

23:19

think that's where the matchup is cool.

23:21

If we are both rough guys or both craftsman,

23:24

I don't think it would work. So I think it's two different

23:26

looks at you. Does that cause problems sometimes?

23:30

No? Because I want it. I mean I think that I

23:32

can benefit from more of that in

23:34

my writing, like you know, I've always thought that, And

23:36

I benefit from your craftsmanship

23:38

and wanting to do I think it's because we both want to do what each

23:40

other's doing a song and driving to write

23:43

the perfect song. You know, can you illustrate what you're

23:45

talking about with a with a snippet

23:47

of a song? Caroline and drama is good

23:49

because that's a that's

23:53

more like I would never have done that kind of songwriting

23:55

a song and the Life Stripes for example, like that kind of

23:57

storytelling songwriting song. With that

23:59

kind of arrangement that we did, it

24:01

would have been turned into more like a slide blue song.

24:03

I think if I had done it in no Oystripes, I think,

24:06

dude, little, give me a little taste of that, and then like, could

24:08

you have about a few minutes of coming, I think

24:10

we should tune up. Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant

24:12

to say earlier. Let

24:15

me give you this, I mean, tune in real quick and sat

24:17

tune. I wondered if I wanted to talk to you guys

24:19

about maybe doing that. I just thought that was kind

24:22

of imperfection. It made for great music. Well, yeah,

24:24

you know, this is being Yeah, this

24:26

is me and him. I wouldn't have said that, but he would. And

24:28

neither one or bad. Yeah, neither one or

24:30

bad. And

24:32

now the drummer quit, right, But

24:38

that's kind of true. Well, okay, another not

24:40

not an example of between Jack and

24:42

myself, but myself and someone

24:45

else who shall remain nameless, a

24:47

producer and I was playing

24:49

guitar in the control room with with the producer

24:52

there, and it was kind of a

24:54

really exciting part of the song, almost like a who

24:56

part, and I was, I was way up here and I was, you

24:59

know, playing like on an electric guitar, and

25:02

that's pretty damn well in tune.

25:05

But the guitar was usually, you know, on the twelfth fret

25:08

or whatever they're it's really hard to keep

25:10

it in tune. In fact, that's probably why

25:12

Pete Town didn't liked to play those chords because

25:14

they're exciting, because they're dissonant and you

25:16

know, but he had me tune the

25:18

chord up on the twelfth fret rick

25:21

are you listening? He had he

25:24

had me tune that fretted chord. So

25:26

then later, I don't know, I'm screaming.

25:28

Later, when the record was being mixed

25:30

by by Dave Sarty, whose name can

25:33

be mentioned here, he

25:37

said, I said, what's going on with this song? Man? It's

25:39

doesn't have this doesn't have any power to it.

25:42

And he said, your guitars or everything's tuo

25:44

in tune, and if you want, I can put a

25:46

guitar on it that's slightly out of tune. And

25:48

he did, and the song just came

25:51

to life. Came to life. That's almost

25:54

that's just sad. It is, I mean,

25:56

it is, it was it made me very sad

25:58

and I didn't have a very fun time making that record.

26:00

Needless to say, well this you can transfer

26:03

this over to our talk about modern country. When we did

26:05

the second Racing Ters album at Blackbird Studio, which is the big

26:07

studio in Nashville, most of the big

26:09

country records were being recorded there, especially at the

26:11

time, and they were explaining to us how they

26:13

were doing the songs in the next studio over,

26:15

like we were recording a drum track and

26:18

a bass guitar and the band would play live

26:20

together and then we would start building on it, like, oh, hey, that's

26:22

two vocals. The live track was the song.

26:24

That was it. It was done, and they were saying,

26:26

oh, you know, at this point, we would just be getting

26:29

the kick drum already in the in the

26:31

over in this country album we're working on, they

26:33

would do a drum beat. You'll play

26:35

a drum beat, put it up on pro tools,

26:37

put it on a grid so that every kick

26:39

and snare is perfectly in time, and then

26:41

they switch out the kick samples

26:44

of the snare drum that they think is a good sounding

26:46

snare drum sample, So every snare drum

26:48

sounds basically exactly the same hit it exactly

26:50

perfect time. There's no soul left

26:53

in the recording at all. Even that's how you get

26:55

played on country music radio. You have to do

26:57

that stuff to this song, take

26:59

all the thought of it. And it's

27:01

sort of like, man, can you imagine

27:03

if even the Beatles had been recorded that way?

27:06

And there even hip hop those guys, those

27:08

beats, guys are going, you

27:10

know, going so far to make the

27:12

beats imperfect, to make them nowadays

27:15

we make them like swing and do weird

27:18

not even in time. Sometimes it's

27:20

awesome, you know. Yeah, But that's Jay Dillock

27:22

who's the maybe maybe the one of the first to do

27:24

that where they're really just kind of playing it off

27:26

time and yeah and uh and uh

27:29

and makeing it have some swing to it,

27:31

you know what I mean. I mean they're trying, they're trying to

27:33

go the other way with it, like they want this drum machine to

27:35

sound like imperfect. You know, yeah,

27:38

that's better. What's striving

27:40

that? Is it? Is it being driven

27:42

from the audience level or is

27:44

it just driven or is it just a kind of thoughtless

27:47

extension of expertise that I can because

27:49

I can make a perfect day, will in my opinion, be

27:52

a bad domino effect of what's

27:54

selling, what's working, and all

27:56

that one worked because we use this algorithm

27:59

type thing and we put everything up on a grid and made

28:01

everything that OCD. Two man people OCD

28:03

in the business honestly thinking like you know, the engineer

28:06

like I can't stand the bleed or I

28:08

can't stand this this this snare is just kind

28:10

of out of phase a little bit. You know, I want

28:13

to replace it, and no one says anything. No

28:15

one says no stop, no one ever.

28:17

Everybody want to also describe it as a misuse

28:20

of technology. Yeah,

28:22

I agree, Rick, And it's like you can use

28:24

like you know, nothing can be firm. If

28:26

I say I've I've gotten punished a lot for being

28:28

like this anti technology guy, I'm really

28:31

not. And the point being is I think people

28:33

misunderstand like I'm not saying, like if you record

28:35

on computer or you're a lifeless piece of shit. It's

28:38

like, no, you can record on potos and do some

28:40

really beautiful things and you can use it properly

28:42

if you all. But if you plug in and everything

28:44

no one's playing in a room live together. Everything is a

28:47

track individually. Everything has been has sixteen

28:49

plugins and emulations on it of reverb

28:52

with digital emulators, and on

28:54

and on and on. You've you've clicked your mouse three million

28:56

times before this song is quote unquote finished.

28:59

Are you me? There's no way

29:01

that's going to have any solar life to it. And if you

29:03

took your favorite recordings of Otis

29:06

Redding or the Beatles or whatever and tried to have

29:08

do it in that same fashion, I don't think people would like

29:10

the results. But that doesn't mean that

29:12

you could. You can't use that technology and come

29:15

up with beautiful things. You definitely can't, but you gotta

29:17

be very diligent, I think, and what like

29:19

what Rick said, that you can misuse

29:22

any of that technology. It's a lot easier to misuse

29:24

this technology now than it was when it was just tape

29:26

machines. It was a lot harder to mess absolutely,

29:28

you know absolutely, because you have more you

29:31

have more control, which

29:33

can be a dangerous thing. And

29:35

there's no undo. There's no apple Z. You

29:37

know, there wasn't no, I mean, there was no

29:39

it was apple Z. So you had to commit.

29:42

You had to commit, well, you guys are to play

29:44

something well example, yeah,

29:47

oh okay, So this was a song called

29:49

Caroline and Drama that we mean, but it worked

29:51

on my on my porch in Nashville when we're

29:53

in our second album, and it

29:57

became a sort

29:59

of like a story telling song. We won't play

30:01

the whole thing, it's a little bit long, but we'll play a little bit

30:03

of it. And it

30:05

was really us working together. I mean when this song

30:07

probably would have been more of like a slide open slide,

30:10

very trashy kind of song if I had done

30:12

it in my other band, The White Stripes at the time, But

30:14

when we did it together, it sort of turned into a

30:16

storytelling kind of song. You're

30:19

grateful for that, and it ways you don't,

30:22

yes, because I didn't want the Rock and Tours to sound

30:24

anything like The White Stripes. I want if we were going

30:26

to start a new band, I don't want to sound anything like it. And then when

30:28

I do solo record, I don't want it to sound anything like the

30:30

Rock and Tours. And so anytime

30:32

you do a project, you don't want it to have any real similarities.

30:35

And I think maybe that's a little

30:37

bit what's what's tough for anybody who's been in

30:39

a band that connected with people in the

30:41

mainstream especially, you

30:44

know, I always think about that. Like, we toured

30:46

with Robert Plant in South America, and

30:48

I just love what he was doing solo,

30:50

and you just get that vibe in the room that people just want to

30:52

hear that led Zepplin song next. And

30:56

it's a little bit that's a kind of curse of bands

30:59

too, you know, beloved bands as a

31:01

unit they liked. It's like, I don't know, it's like maybe even part

31:03

of a fantasy thing, like oh, I wish I was on the road with

31:05

my four friends or something in a

31:07

van or something. I don't know. Maybe there's

31:09

some appeal of that, but there's this idea

31:11

that this gang of guys or girls

31:14

is up there against

31:16

all odds, traveling in the country and and and

31:18

and coming up these songs together. And

31:21

when you're solo, it's

31:23

almost like you're, oh, this is like an em Why

31:25

why don't you just do the white stripes? Why don't

31:27

want you just do that? That's what we want you to do. You know, why

31:30

doesn't Robert Plant just reform led Zeppelin? Because

31:32

that's what you want you to do. But I think people don't

31:34

realize that it's not what the artists want.

31:37

There are doesn't want to keep repeating them, says, can you imagine

31:39

if Robert Denier had to keep playing Travis

31:41

Bickle from textra Driver in every film

31:43

for the rest of his life? I mean liked

31:46

should that should be like that? It

31:49

can't be in a band for more than five years. Five years

31:51

actually be pretty good. Yeah, it's not bad.

31:54

You want to try it. Yeah, it's Carolina and drama.

31:59

It's not it's total Southern Gothic.

32:01

It doesn't. But

32:04

this, you know, this reminds me of the last time we

32:06

chatted for that

32:08

podcast episode on Elvis. You were

32:10

talking about how the first time you went to Memphis

32:13

he reminded you of Detroit, and then you had

32:15

that whole thing about how Detroit is southern town. Yeah,

32:18

maybe it's not a stretch that you end up writing

32:21

Southern gothic. Why Detroit a bunch of guys

32:23

who right end up writting Southern gothic rock.

32:25

Yeah, there's something about it, there's something

32:28

there where there is a kind of literal connection.

32:30

It does when you're in Memphis. I feel very much

32:32

like it's like Detroit, New Orleans, Memphis, Detroit

32:35

sort of have something straight down the country, some

32:37

kind of blood vein going on. Yes,

32:40

so you're painting the picture. We just played that song. It sounds

32:42

very southern and we wrote it on a southern

32:44

front porch in my house in Nashville. Well,

32:46

why aren't we writing Stooges

32:49

sounding heavy rock

32:51

number? Maybe because we have acoustic guitars

32:53

and we're sitting on a veranda or something. I don't know, but

32:56

it might

32:59

be that sometimes these environments

33:01

saying you know that your environment influences

33:03

you don't really know specifically what it is, but

33:05

you know it's it's being influenced. I guess that

33:08

song was written from beginning to end

33:10

on your front porch and basically, yeah, for the most part,

33:13

How does it when you guys write together? Is

33:16

it? How does it work? Well?

33:18

It's been different, like so this record, I

33:22

think we did a lot of impromptu on

33:25

the microphone, like just

33:27

going out there and just kind of riffing,

33:29

you know, just vocalizing I don't know,

33:31

on a song and then picking out parts

33:33

like oh that sounds nice or whatever. I'm

33:36

specific I'm specifically remembering now Caroline

33:39

Ramon will recept there, and it was it was sort of like say,

33:41

we started off with Billy woke

33:43

up in the back of his truck and I was like, Billy,

33:45

that's a stupid name to put in there. I'm

33:48

like, well, we'll find something else later. And

33:50

and you know, I remember, actually Bob

33:53

Dylan had come by the house a few months later. I have to read

33:55

recorded and I played him that song and I

33:57

was actually saying, hey, man, do you think it's actually

34:00

went with an infigram may I You've used Billy in the song

34:02

Tom Petty has in fifteen other songs.

34:04

Off the top of my head, Billy Joe McAllister jumped

34:06

off the tallatte Bridge. I was like, I'm trying to think of

34:08

something different, but I can't think of a two syllable name. And he's

34:10

like, He's like, I don't see a problem with that, and

34:13

this has been validated, so okay.

34:15

And then I was like, okay, then we're fine. Let's

34:17

move on. And

34:20

you've become friends with Dylan. We

34:22

are we are he's well, he's he's my dad, he's

34:25

he's my mentor. So I I

34:28

don't insulted by saying we're friends,

34:30

you know, in the state as if I'm anywhere near

34:33

uh, but but he he uh, yeah,

34:36

we do have a pretty nice relationship. He's

34:38

nice to be able to play something like that and get it get

34:40

feedback. But but yeah, but to talk about

34:42

the Brendan and I like song right anyway? In that song,

34:44

for example, I say, I go that one one

34:47

thing was the name, and I okay,

34:49

we'll think of something later. But then he's like, he

34:51

will say, well, what's he gonna do now? You know? Okay,

34:54

Well he just woke up in his truck and he went and saw, Oh

34:56

there's a priest in his house. Now

34:58

we're now we're feeding off each what's the priest doing?

35:01

Oh, well, maybe he's fighting with someone

35:03

else. There's a boyfriend there who

35:05

was described by his boyfriend. How do you describe these people?

35:08

Sum up their whole lives in one sentence? And

35:10

I thought something like, oh he's got some blue tattoos

35:12

that were given to him and hears young, Like maybe he's been in prison since

35:14

he was a kid. Was a one way of saying

35:17

he sent a rough life. It's

35:19

hard to do that though. It's hard to sum up someone's life

35:21

in a sound bite, but you kind of have to do that as

35:23

a song. You have to come with these you have to make these

35:25

concessions, you know, especially if you're talking

35:27

about characters like that. But I think those things come

35:29

out of me and him bouncing it off of each other. If

35:32

I had been sitting there by myself, the

35:34

song would have came out totally different and the characters would

35:36

have done different things. How often

35:38

are the songs that you write about

35:40

a fictional character. Brendan

35:43

is different, and he can tell you a different story about his own, But

35:45

I almost never try to write about myself

35:47

because it's just so it's

35:49

too boring for me. I feel it's like it's boring, and also

35:52

if it's I'm gonna end up probably writing about

35:54

something negative or sad, and I don't want to keep reliving

35:56

that for rest of my life. Every time I played this song

35:58

live, it just seems like And

36:00

then also I think it's too overdone. Nowadays.

36:03

I think everyone sort of expects that the new Taylor

36:05

Swift song is going to be about her dating

36:07

John Mayer or something like that, and I think

36:09

maybe it'd be better if people wrote

36:11

about something different. I

36:13

read in the book something

36:15

very interesting. It was like if you had asked kids

36:18

in high school one hundred years ago to

36:21

write a song who knew nothing about writing music, that

36:24

ninety percent of them or ninety five percent

36:26

of them would have written about the Titanic

36:28

or a mining disaster or something big

36:30

that was to the community. But if

36:32

you wrote asked a hundred high school kids right now to

36:34

write a song who nothing about music or songwriting,

36:37

they would all one writes songs about

36:39

themselves. And that's

36:41

something that I don't really have an opinion on about

36:43

what that means about how culture has changed,

36:45

but I'm sure everybody listening to that statement

36:48

could probably infer lots of narcissism

36:51

and things that to do

36:53

with how we attack technology

36:56

with social media and now these days, et cetera, et cetera.

36:58

Whereas before a hundred years ago, and most

37:00

people hadn't even been more than five miles from their own

37:03

home, they would assume that there was this

37:05

grandiose life outside of their small town

37:07

that they know very little about. It seems very

37:09

exotic, but that's all at our

37:11

fingertips. Now. I want to dwell

37:13

on this remote because it's super interesting, this

37:16

idea of the of

37:18

this switch. From one

37:20

hundred years ago, the kids would have written narratives

37:24

about some world event, and

37:26

today would be about themselves, because I

37:28

was just thinking as you were saying that, was

37:30

there a one hundred years ago, you

37:33

know, after Katrina there

37:35

would have been a top ten

37:37

song equivalent or about Katrina

37:40

or about you know, we

37:43

would all know someone would have memorialized

37:47

nine eleven or I was thinking,

37:50

you know, all these that

37:53

wave of police shootings over there, you

37:55

know there is one,

37:57

there's one, there's that genomen a song. But

38:00

but the idea that you know, hip

38:02

hop could be a

38:04

another version of hip hop is would

38:07

be this would be a genre full

38:09

of social protests. Yeah. I

38:11

tried to work with Jay Z on a

38:14

hip hop version of stagger Lee,

38:16

which I thought I was telling Jay like

38:19

and I wish you could have helped me with this riction make

38:21

this actually come alive. But it never worked. It

38:23

never happened. But I was trying to say,

38:25

you know, Jay, this this is a song

38:27

about a guy who was killed over a five dollar

38:30

hat. And these are mythical

38:32

folk heroes that should be

38:34

mythical hip hop. Uh

38:37

heroes, Where are where are the mythical

38:39

hip hop characters? There's a

38:41

lot of people in hip hop who talk about themselves.

38:44

Most of it is the MC talking

38:46

from his own point of view. Nothing wrong with that, But

38:48

wouldn't it be awesome if there was also mythical

38:51

hip hop characters? And I thought, God,

38:53

stagger Lee is just it's just waiting to be done

38:55

in a hip hop style. You know that, it's

38:57

it's got everything, It's got everything that's talked about

39:00

in modern hip hop, and say, all you gotta do is modernize

39:02

it. Take us full circle to

39:04

modernizing all things. But and

39:07

he was interested in for a second, we just didn't

39:09

never got I got to come together and finish it. I

39:12

ended up doing on my band The Dead Weathers Out, and I I ended

39:14

up doing a version called three Dollar Hat off

39:16

of it because I didn't want to see the music go to waste. I'm

39:19

curious about you guys, to

39:21

talk a little bit more about the you

39:24

know, you're talking about the music that you grew

39:26

up with. I'm curious about

39:28

the music that net that at the

39:30

specific point you are in your career, that

39:33

really affects you and moves you.

39:36

I mean, I like to pick up on a little moments

39:38

you're like, oh that was like, say I heard Billy Billie

39:41

Eilish song on our day. The I don't

39:43

know the name of the type, but I think it's a we're when we

39:45

go to sleep, when we all falls it, where do we

39:47

go? I think? And what I liked was the way

39:50

she recorded the vocals, and to me,

39:52

like that was some great use of technology.

39:54

However she recorded her vocals, I'm assuming it's

39:56

approach tools thing that it was like, oh

39:59

man, beautiful way that it sounds like a synthesizer.

40:01

But it's also sort of like four of her singing

40:03

layered together, very very cool,

40:06

very well done, impressive, And you remember

40:08

those kind of things, like the tone of something,

40:11

and that's what bums you out. It's like when everything is electronic

40:14

or electric that you don't know. People

40:16

used to say, Wow, how did they make the sound? How did the Beatles

40:18

make that sound at that one part in the song? Are

40:20

they playing? I think that's backwards guitar

40:23

or whatever it was at that time, some technique

40:25

that or say, like in a movie, like how did

40:27

they force that horse carriage off a

40:29

cliff? Did they really kill those horses in that movie?

40:31

You know? But now it's just

40:34

a one sentence thing. It was done on the computer. Hey

40:36

Jack, how do you feel about the Donna

40:38

summer song, I feel love, I

40:40

love it. I love it, and as I read more about

40:43

it and I think what is it? Brian Eno brought

40:45

it into the studio and said de Bowie that this

40:47

is the future of music, and it was. There was

40:49

no what was the first song? It was all completely

40:52

electronic, right, Rick, Yes,

40:53

yes, And again to

40:56

speak to what you said before, Rick, a good use of

40:58

technology versus bad use of technology?

41:00

That yes, Usually when the song something's

41:02

the first, that's time has ever done. First time they

41:05

built a Fender telecaster or a

41:07

or a Fender or a reverb amp,

41:09

like the first out of the gate is usually the

41:12

best, and that

41:14

that was one of those first out of the gate moments, like oh

41:16

wow, look what you could do with electronic music or craft

41:19

work and all the things that came throughout

41:21

that scenario of there's

41:23

some amazing things going to be done. And then but that's

41:26

the same thing with you know, say, like a grunge movement comes

41:28

out, all the dirty kind

41:30

of raw signing rock and roll comes out, and then you've got

41:32

to listen to seven years of the imitators kind

41:34

of watering it down. No big deal. That's

41:37

how music has always gone it's always gone up in hills and

41:39

valleys like that. There should be a there should you

41:41

know the Germans words for everything. There should

41:43

be a German word for the person

41:45

who comes after the originator

41:47

and does a bad version of the things. Yeah,

41:53

we'll be back with more from the Rack and Tours after

41:55

the break. We're

42:00

back with more from the Rack and tours. But

42:02

can you talk a little bit about and I'd love if you paid

42:05

a little bit of it. This song

42:07

I don't feel like trying sometimes or some

42:10

days. Some days I don't feel like trying on some days

42:13

it seems like the most personal song on Neil. Yeah

42:16

it is. I didn't. I didn't think much

42:18

of it when I was writing. I mean, I didn't think that it

42:20

was necessarily so

42:22

personal. I mean I think there's

42:25

kind of let me just be clear, I think

42:27

I don't. I don't write strictly autobiographically.

42:30

I mean I think I I tell stories as

42:32

well. They're not they're not stories

42:34

with you know, necessarily

42:36

there are lots of different characters, and the characters maybe

42:38

morph into other characters, and I take

42:41

liberties and artistic license and you

42:43

know, So

42:46

that being said, I mean, yeah, I think I think

42:48

I kind of felt, you know, I was just

42:50

kind of feeling at a having

42:53

a bad day, you know, maybe more than

42:55

just a bad day. But and I started to

42:57

write this song, and then and

43:00

then of course it's it's good to

43:02

embellish and make things just get just twist

43:04

the knife even more. And you know, so I

43:06

I kind of I feel like I just

43:08

take liberties and songs like maybe

43:11

try to make it more shocking or more sad, or more

43:13

this or that, and then it people

43:16

are asking me about it, you know, like you

43:18

know, it's it's wow, it's really sounds

43:20

almost suicidal if you really wanted to

43:22

throw it. When you're in a band like this, where there's two

43:24

singers and two songwriters, you can really

43:27

throw a spanner in the works. And

43:30

you'd have me sing it if it's that personal,

43:32

right, and then see what happens there. That

43:35

could be an interesting twist. Maybe we should have done that. Yeah,

43:38

And we've talked, we've always talked about doing that. We just never

43:40

got around to doing that. Just singing each other's songs,

43:42

like you know, I

43:45

mean singing singing each other's lyrics. Will

43:49

you play a little bit of that song some days? Yeah,

43:54

whoa

43:57

have. Have either of you written a song before

44:00

where it's two distinct parts like that, where

44:02

it's almost like the second half of the song answers

44:05

the first half and the whole

44:07

feeling of the song changes. Are there any others

44:09

like that in either of your catalogs?

44:14

I think I do that a lot. It's kind of a

44:16

little go to of mine, like a

44:18

big outro, big like you

44:21

know, but he means that that that was an answer,

44:23

well answer, yeah. I don't remember doing

44:25

that before. Maybe maybe

44:27

yeah, maybe not direct

44:30

directly like an answer thing, But

44:34

I do like it interesting that it's like

44:37

the first half of the song is that,

44:40

you know, I don't care and I'm wallowing, and then the

44:42

second half of the song is but and

44:45

it's it's the second half is we shall

44:47

overcome. It's interesting to have

44:49

both of those in the same song. It is I

44:51

don't know. It just might be the first only time

44:53

that you are I've ever done that. Did you start

44:56

by thinking you're gonna have the answer or did you write

44:58

the first half? I think it needs an answer that was

45:00

written. The second half was written on the spot

45:03

spontaneously, which I

45:05

thought it was getting too I thought it was getting too

45:07

bummed out, like we were all recording

45:10

it. It was it wasn't. It also wasn't coming

45:12

very easily for us all, you know, So I was and

45:14

I was getting nervous that maybe people

45:17

were losing interest in this song that

45:19

I had such high hopes for and blah

45:21

blah blah. So I think that just

45:26

after a take that didn't go so well, I think

45:28

I said here right now, not

45:31

did yet. That just came out of nowhere

45:33

yeah yet, And then they

45:36

started playing along not dead yet,

45:38

dear right now, I'm not by

45:41

the end, we're singing dear right now

45:43

and I'm not dead yet. So

45:45

we were like, whoa, let's you know, we got

45:48

to use that. That's great. Yeah, And I was

45:50

glad because it's a happy ending, you know. But

45:52

these are things that would not happen. I don't

45:54

know. If I wouldn't, I wouldn't invite yourself

45:57

recording your own solo stuff, you wouldn't

45:59

do. Those things wouldn't have happened. No, or if I had written

46:01

it, it it would become a part that would be you

46:03

know, just yeah, it's

46:05

funny how the last I mean, this is gonna like a

46:07

totally tried observation. But I've always been fascinated

46:09

by it. You could have a song like

46:12

that, the bulk of which is

46:14

this dense downer, and

46:16

then you stick the little thing on the end and

46:19

all of that is forgotten exactly the end

46:21

you know. I was class was

46:23

Yeah, you

46:26

know, it's almost like it just gets you, it

46:29

gets erased. The emotional

46:31

arc of music is so fascinating that

46:33

you can you can kind of rescue,

46:35

you can take somewhere to the band's melody.

46:39

Yeah, it's with that melody, you can do that. I mean, I can do

46:41

that right now. Just just

46:44

bummed it out right. But let's

46:46

give me all right, So

46:49

there's like that's the most basic trick ever. But

46:51

you know it's all in there. It's

46:53

great. I mean, Mozart knew

46:55

it, you know, they all knew it how to just pull

46:57

the heart strings. And it was just

47:00

kind of just popped in my head. Was that, you

47:02

know, speaking of like novelty songs and uh

47:05

with deeper metaphors so hidden back

47:07

there and changing things again. But just

47:09

thinking of Loretta Linton's songs called Fist

47:11

City. If you know this song and to the

47:14

choruses, I don't know the chors exactly,

47:16

but his chorus is, uh, and

47:19

if you don't want to go to Fist City,

47:21

you better detour around my town because

47:23

I'll grab you by the hair of the head and

47:25

I'll lift you off of the ground, just

47:28

like a novelty thing, like oh, okay, you're gonna I'm

47:30

gonna kick your ass if you mess around

47:32

with man. But then she says like this double chorus, which

47:34

is she's so brillian. Now she goes, I ain't

47:37

saying my baby's a saint because of hate,

47:39

and Nettie won't get around with a giddy.

47:41

But I'm here to tell you, Galt, you better

47:44

watch your your faces. You stay away

47:46

from my man if you don't want to go to fist City. So uh,

47:48

it's like she admits, Yeah, I know he's screwing

47:51

around and I'm should be mad at him, but yeah,

47:53

I'm gonna talk about that right now, we're talking about you. That's

47:56

brilliant songwriting. Yeah, so

47:58

good. I'm

48:01

curious about all of you.

48:04

Are have lived through a period

48:06

where the way in which people

48:08

experienced music has your audience

48:11

experiences music has changed fundamentally,

48:15

spanning quite a Yeah, like in

48:17

twenty years we've gone from

48:21

buying the album and listening to it from the game

48:23

to end, yeah to

48:25

to I'm assuming most it's almost all

48:27

spot you know, streaming and individual

48:30

streaming and vinyls. How does how

48:32

has that affected? Has it affected

48:35

you? Has it affected the way audiences

48:37

react to your music when you play live? We

48:40

thought, we thought, say, like when we're like, say, when the

48:42

Patrick and Jack ran the Green Horns, I was in a way straps

48:45

on the Detroit garage rock scene was cooking that

48:47

that. We thought we had this problem

48:49

of what they call Golden age,

48:51

thinking that everything was always better in the

48:53

past. Oh god, the bands

48:55

in the sixties they had it so good, and it's

48:58

like, wow, wouldn't it be great to be from that period?

49:00

Then this lay mass eighties

49:02

and nineties blah blah blah digital crap

49:05

that we had to grow up in. And

49:07

then you been like, we thought that was bad.

49:11

Jesus man, there's nobody's nobody's sitting

49:13

down running a song anymore, you know, with

49:15

a with a piano. And then we're gonna say, like,

49:17

you see something like a Brandy Carlisle on the on the

49:19

ground, He's like, oh thank god, you know, and

49:21

you know, what it is you see finally is

49:23

talent. I mean, I think you finally

49:25

see somebody who's truly gifted, and you're like

49:28

alone to pieces because what

49:30

we're used to is mediocrity.

49:32

I mean just you know, whatever's

49:35

sort of viral and popular on

49:37

the internet, which is always just so lame,

49:40

you know, nothing to do with skill or creation

49:44

or art or you want to say,

49:46

like, I want someone to sit down and love

49:48

their craft and love their work and their art form,

49:51

and they're expressing it in a way where they can figure

49:53

out how to blow your mind. With

49:55

the tools that they're using. It doesn't matter if they're analog

49:57

or digital or not. Can they blow their mind? Billy

49:59

I. The way she recorded her vocals on that song

50:01

on her the year she blew My mind, The way she record

50:03

your vocals. She used it technology to her advantage

50:06

and did something beautiful, and she's

50:08

trying to blow your mind. Yeah, but there's

50:10

not enough of that. Feels like maybe

50:12

maybe when you look back and say, oh god, it seems like every

50:15

time someone turned their head in the sixties, someone was might

50:17

know some amazing song that we had greatness to it

50:19

and would last forever. Maybe

50:22

though that we're only remembering the good stuff.

50:24

I don't know that's we're

50:26

definitely remembering the good stuff. And

50:28

the bar to

50:31

get in the game in the sixties was much

50:33

higher, Yeah, because the cost

50:35

it took to make a record to get

50:37

signed. Yeah, you had to

50:40

really be good just to get signed. Yeah.

50:42

And if you got to really have your you had to have

50:44

your act together by the time you got to see like a guys,

50:46

we got one chance. We better rehearse the ship and have

50:48

it done right. And if you're gonna sing, you're gonna sing from

50:50

the heart, and you're gonna or really impress

50:52

them because there's only this one moment. You don't

50:55

have all we can go back and overdub and fix it and

50:57

click and click whatever. The beas

50:59

recorded the first album in nine hours. You know

51:01

that was it. Yeah, let's

51:03

up in first album thirty six hours, blacks

51:05

I was first album twenty four hours, students

51:08

first, on and on and on and on all that. The

51:11

other side of it is that because

51:13

the entry bar is low, now, yes,

51:16

there may be more noise and more not

51:18

good stuff, but you might

51:20

hear something that you might not have heard

51:23

that wouldn't have made the bar on

51:25

a technical level, but it's a different

51:27

kind of talent. Like when I when I hear someone like young

51:29

Thug, it's really exciting to me.

51:32

In the old days,

51:34

someone who you couldn't understand

51:36

what they were saying, or maybe they

51:38

don't even know what they're saying, might not

51:41

get it, you know, might not get to record. That

51:43

sounds like you, young Thug, and you

51:45

evokes an idea that you trust him

51:47

and you believe him. Right, Yes, well,

51:49

that's that's what I'm sings is

51:52

when you when you believe somebody, however,

51:54

whatever tricks they're using to make you

51:56

think that they're believable and should be trusted, or if they

51:58

actually are trustable, whatever it

52:00

is, you trust Young Doug, and now you're

52:02

ready to open the door and listen. Listen to anything else he

52:04

has to say. If someone comes out of gate and

52:06

I like, I don't trust them, I kind of almost ex

52:09

them out and I'm never going to really dig

52:11

what they're doing, no matter what they do, no matter how beautiful

52:13

it is, it's coming from somebody I don't trust. So

52:16

okay, on the on the trust front, we

52:19

mentioned earlier that people who are

52:21

technically great are harder to trust because

52:23

there's so much craft in it, it's harder to believe

52:25

them. Who are the people who

52:28

you think of as technically

52:30

great, yet you still trust

52:33

them? That's a great question.

52:35

Let me think for two beyond Brandy

52:37

Carlisle, because she's right. Yeah, I think Paul

52:39

McCartney maybe, I think, you

52:42

know, he's famously the technic, the more technical

52:44

one guy my favorite beatle, But what's

52:47

my favorite beatle? No doubt Paul, But I believe

52:49

him with all my heart. I mean and and a lot of times

52:51

I think I'm just

52:53

interested in the way that an artist evolves, even when

52:56

they're older, and how they get sort of sort

52:58

of lame. It's

53:00

still kind of like Paul McCarney, Like I still want to hear what

53:02

he's up to, what he's doing. You know, I

53:04

might include Simon and Garfuncle, even

53:06

though Garfuncle is the voice

53:08

you think of more in Simon and Garfuncle,

53:11

the more recognizable voice, Yeah

53:13

is Garfuncles. Paul's

53:16

harmony is incredible, and Paul's songs

53:18

are incredible. But when I listened to those

53:20

records, I believe those words, like I I

53:24

go with them. Yeah,

53:27

there was almost these phenominalies

53:29

like that that kind of started off like acts that didn't really

53:32

know what they wanted to do. They knew they love music, but they

53:34

didn't know what exactly their voice was, and

53:36

they found their voice like I think

53:38

Dylan. If folk music hadn't been happening,

53:40

and the same thing with the Paul Simon and Garfuncle,

53:43

both those acts. If folk music hadn't been the hot thing at

53:45

that moment, they could have easily if they'd been ten years before, they

53:47

would have been rock and rollers like Little Richard and Jean

53:50

Vincent. I mean a matter of fact,

53:52

what they were called Sumon Garf were called Tom and

53:54

Jerry when they first came out, and they became

53:56

because the folk moment. They became believable

53:59

and down to earth and soulful

54:02

folks, singers that you believed what

54:04

they were saying, that they had knowledge, they

54:06

were experts about something that you didn't know

54:08

about. You had that that trust

54:11

in this person who's communicating

54:13

to you through music. You trust them and you believe

54:16

that they know something that you don't know. And by

54:18

that and the sign of that trust is for

54:20

Simon and Garfunkel is by kind

54:22

of the middle of their career. Of

54:24

his career, Simon Foots

54:27

gotten album called Grace Landing, which he takes you

54:29

to South Africa and writ it's about essentially

54:31

people from New York City. I mean, it's the most hilarious,

54:34

brilliant you know, left

54:36

hand turn, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

54:39

it totally works. It's probably one of the greatest albums

54:41

ever made, really Graceland and and I

54:43

have. I listened to it a few months ago and

54:45

realize, oh my god, there's not There's also a

54:48

Zaidiko song on here, there's

54:50

a Los Lobos is playing on

54:52

here. It's not just African,

54:54

It's like all kinds of music

54:57

going on that record. I'm like, well, I didn't even remember

54:59

that being part of that record. I thought it was all just so

55:01

Lady Smith, Black Mumbazo and

55:04

that. But there's really a lot going on, and there's a lot of

55:06

New York going on in there. And on top of it, you

55:08

name the album Grace Awesome.

55:13

There's a girl from New York City who calls himself

55:15

the Human Trampoline. That's that's the one

55:17

from Christ's like I had a I had

55:19

I had like an ignorant, naive revelation

55:22

in that uh, the Mississippi

55:24

Delta was shining like a national guitar. I've been singing

55:26

that line walking around the house for thirty

55:29

years or whatever, and it was like about two three

55:31

years ago, like, oh shit, a national

55:33

guitar. That's a name brand of a silver dough

55:35

bro which is shiny. I thought

55:37

he meant, like the big picture of the royal a

55:40

national guitar. We were all playing

55:42

this giantantic guitar together as the nation.

55:44

That reference was made for you exactly

55:47

exactly, and I blew it. I'm middle it.

55:52

Should we do one? Should

55:54

we do one more song? How about an

55:56

only child? Kind of feeling child? Pretty

55:58

cool? Yeah, this feels like a

56:00

mixture of what Brendan was talking

56:02

about, the personal thing, but mixed with us

56:05

writing together and and it becoming a bigger

56:07

song than it started as. Maybe let

56:10

me start together? Right? Yeah? I

56:13

wanted to and this is my favorite lyrics. Sorry

56:17

no, but I can't. We're gonna do that. I can't do the

56:19

solo? And would

56:23

you would you say that you care

56:26

that you give extra emphasis

56:29

or extra

56:32

care to the vocal line

56:34

that brings in the solo? Is that

56:36

a thing like the last vocal line?

56:38

Right? Before the solo happens. Yeah,

56:41

Yeah, because you're sort of like, uh,

56:45

you've got to set it up. Yeah, because it's uh, I

56:48

think that's cool. I like to do that live, Like it's kind

56:50

of it's kind of like that old school thing, like you

56:53

know, it's come back home again

56:55

to get his laundry done. Look out, look

56:57

out, now go go you know you know how

56:59

that used to do that? Or

57:02

you know I can play? Is that

57:04

Stevie Wonder my favorite? Go

57:07

Blue Caps? Go go say

57:11

the name of the band. Can you imagine like

57:13

Bober Plancard go, let's up and goes.

57:23

Thanks to Jack White, Brendan Benson, and the rest

57:25

of the Rack and Tours for hanging out and playing with us,

57:28

and a special thanks to engineers this episode two,

57:30

Bill Skibby and Detroit and Leonardo Beccafici

57:33

aka Fresco in Italy. On

57:35

the next episode, Rick talks with Tyler the creator

57:38

about his new album Igor. Broken

57:40

Record is produced with help from Jason Gambrell and Milo

57:42

Bell for pushkin in the streets is

57:44

it Broken Record podcast dot com for playlists

57:47

from every episode and follow

57:49

us on Instagram at the Broken Record.

57:51

Our theme music is by Kenny Beats.

57:53

I'm justin Richmond,