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0:32

It's Bullseye.

0:36

I'm Jessie Thorne. In 2018,

0:39

Boots Riley wrote and directed his first

0:41

feature film, Sorry to Bother You. If

0:44

you saw it, you know that it is hilarious

0:46

and scary and insightful,

0:49

and generally just completely

0:52

bonkers. Like I can't get too

0:54

deep into it without spoiling

0:56

the story, but

0:58

yeah, I mean, it is some wild stuff

1:01

happens in that movie. And

1:03

then Boots had another wild

1:05

idea. A story about

1:08

a 13-foot-tall giant,

1:11

a black man, a teenager, really.

1:14

And not about that 13-foot-tall

1:17

man's superpowers or

1:19

whatever, but instead about

1:21

how he sees himself, little personal

1:24

stuff, like his star sign.

1:27

Four years later, I'm a Virgo

1:30

premiered on TV. Jharrel

1:32

Jerome stars as Cootie, the aforementioned

1:35

13-foot-tall giant. Cootie

1:38

was born and raised in Oakland. At

1:41

first, crammed into a normal house

1:43

with his aunt and uncle, then in

1:46

a giant-sized shack out back.

1:49

He never shows himself to the outside

1:51

world. His aunt says the world

1:54

isn't ready. When the

1:56

show starts, Cootie turns 19. His

1:58

family wants... him to stay hidden.

2:01

He decides to go out into the world.

2:04

What could go wrong? I'm a Virgo

2:07

is a fantastic show and

2:09

you should definitely watch it. But

2:11

this isn't an interview about I'm

2:13

a Virgo. I mean, we do talk about I'm

2:16

a Virgo some, but Boots Riley

2:18

is a writer and his union, the Writers

2:20

Guild of America has been on strike at

2:22

this point for the better part of the summer.

2:25

Boots Riley is also more than

2:27

just a writer. He was the front man and

2:29

founder of the coup, a fiercely

2:31

political hip hop group from the Bay Area. He

2:34

was also born into activism. His parents

2:36

were both organizers. Boots

2:39

was active in progressive politics, including

2:41

labor organizing before he was old enough

2:43

to drive. So

2:45

we'll talk about all that too. And we'll talk

2:48

about what's at stake in the dispute between

2:50

the WGA and the studio

2:52

heads represented by the Alliance

2:54

of Motion Picture and Television Producers

2:56

or the AMPTP.

2:58

Also, this interview was taped in

3:00

June before the Screen Actors Guild went

3:03

out on strike. You will hear references to

3:05

them early on.

3:07

I'm so thrilled to welcome Boots Riley

3:09

back on the show, one of my favorite

3:12

writer directors and favorite musicians.

3:14

So let's get into it. My conversation

3:16

with Boots Riley.

3:22

Boots Riley, welcome back to Bulls Eye. I'm happy to see

3:24

you. Yeah. And congratulations

3:26

on this new show and

3:29

all this work you've got going. It just

3:32

makes me very happy to know about it. I'm

3:34

just thrilled about it. Well, thank you.

3:36

Thank you. It started writing

3:39

it like four years ago. So.

3:42

Putting in the work. Yeah. Before we get to

3:44

the show and some of the stuff you're up to

3:46

right now, let's talk about the

3:48

strike. As we record

3:51

this, knock

3:52

on wood, maybe it's resolved

3:54

by the time this goes on the air. Well,

3:57

how long is it going to take for this to go on the

3:59

air?

3:59

Because I,

4:02

you know, like from

4:04

the writers that I saw, they're not ready

4:07

to give up anytime soon and

4:10

based on how the AMPTP

4:12

is acting right now and

4:14

that anonymous Apple exec,

4:19

everybody knows this fight is about much

4:22

more than these particular

4:25

issues. It's about power.

4:29

It's about who gets to say how

4:32

our work is made. You

4:34

know, we always, and at

4:36

times I've been one of them, we always think about capital

4:40

and the ruling classes not having,

4:43

you know, not forecasting too

4:45

far in the future about what they're

4:47

doing and, you know, like, hey,

4:50

they're just looking for profit and

4:52

that's how you can fight them is, you

4:54

know, you fight them at that point. But

4:58

it's pretty clear that they

5:00

are looking at this new

5:04

strike wave that's been happening across the country.

5:06

If you look at paydayreport.com, they've

5:09

tracked and they document 2,900 strikes in the

5:12

last three years.

5:15

And we see stuff happening all over the world. We

5:17

saw like things taking it to another level,

5:19

even for France, where

5:22

just a couple months ago

5:24

or a few weeks ago or something, they were

5:27

striking and they decided to cut the power

5:29

to different politicians' houses,

5:32

right, the workers at the

5:35

power plants. So things

5:37

are stepping up all over the world.

5:40

And I think

5:41

that some of these tech

5:44

companies that are part of the

5:46

ANPTP are thinking about things

5:49

holistically. So

5:51

this is going to be a, my

5:53

prediction is this is going to be a long

5:56

fight unless, you know,

5:58

unless they're like, hey, you know.

5:59

Let's get back to making some movies, give

6:03

these folks what they want. Besides

6:05

being a WGA member,

6:08

I presume you're a WGA member. I'm WGA, I'm

6:10

DGA, I'm SAG, and

6:13

I used to work for UPS, so I

6:16

used to be a teamster as well. So

6:18

in addition to all of those things, you've

6:20

also been a labor organizer and an

6:23

organizer in broader issues. When

6:25

you're

6:26

down there on the picket line with

6:29

other writers, and

6:32

allies of those writers, what are the

6:34

things that you hear those writers are

6:36

concerned about?

6:37

Well, first of all, you made me think of something

6:39

that is connected with that

6:42

vision of being there on the

6:44

picket line.

6:46

Writing screenplays as

6:48

opposed to doing music, for me

6:50

has been much more of an isolating situation.

6:56

With music, I have to

6:58

collaborate

7:00

and do shows with my band and

7:02

this and that. But

7:05

with writing, you're

7:07

sitting there for hours, you've got to block out the

7:09

world and no, you can't go to this party,

7:11

you can't do it. So what is happening,

7:14

what I see with this strike,

7:16

which is also why it may go on longer,

7:18

is because it's fun.

7:20

It's fun to be around a bunch

7:22

of other writers all of a sudden,

7:25

you don't usually get that.

7:27

There's a lot

7:30

more opportunity

7:31

for connection with

7:34

people that are doing what you do. I

7:37

think people are feeling that.

7:38

I've heard

7:40

exactly, both of my comedy partners

7:43

are WGA members, John Hodgman

7:45

and Jordan Morris. What I

7:47

hear from them besides

7:48

terror

7:51

that even the possibility of having health insurance

7:53

is going to get taken away or that robots

7:56

are going to write their shows,

7:59

it's great

8:01

to be out there and

8:04

feel like they have this connection

8:06

with their colleagues and they get to see

8:09

Josh Gondelman or Carol Kolb or whoever

8:11

it is that they see down on the

8:14

lines and feel

8:16

like they're in fellowship,

8:19

feel like

8:21

they're in a community. Yeah, yeah. I mean,

8:23

and that's kind of what many

8:25

artists are trying to do is like

8:28

reach out and touch other people

8:30

like in, you know, feel like

8:32

people are hearing what's inside your head and

8:34

all that and especially

8:37

in this

8:37

day in the internet time,

8:40

like it all becomes theoretical

8:42

like, you know, and you can get addicted to

8:44

the internet because you want to see how

8:47

somebody reacted to a thing and all

8:49

that. But this is just people, you

8:51

know, and I think what that original

8:54

creative impulse came from. So

8:57

the strike is going to go, you know, people,

8:59

WGA isn't going to quit striking because

9:02

people want to do it too much. You know,

9:04

people want

9:05

this connection. So

9:08

what I hear people there

9:10

talking about though, and let me be

9:12

clear, I live in Oakland, California,

9:14

which for those in other places

9:17

is not

9:18

near LA. It's six hours

9:20

north by car.

9:21

And so

9:24

I've only come down

9:26

besides today for

9:29

one other day of picketing.

9:31

So I'm not there very often, but

9:34

I am also on various

9:38

chat groups with other writers

9:40

and directors hyphenates.

9:44

And

9:45

AI was definitely a big

9:47

thing and still is. And a

9:52

lot of folks are happy that the DGA

9:54

put something in

9:56

there because maybe it

9:58

gives a leg up. the WGA's

10:02

demands. Some of the other things

10:04

that people are talking about, as you know, like

10:06

sometimes the pay for writing looks

10:09

good to the rest of the country because you see how much

10:11

per week someone gets. But

10:14

built into that is time that you

10:16

can't work, that you can't take

10:18

other jobs because you

10:21

need to be nimble and ready for your main

10:23

one to call

10:26

back. So it's really not as much

10:28

as it seems. So things like the

10:30

way people are getting paid, how much

10:32

people get to do, how much they can

10:35

expand, can they

10:37

visit the set

10:39

and learn more about

10:42

it. So those are the things I'm

10:44

hearing about. We've got more

10:46

to get into with Boots Riley after a quick break.

10:48

Stay with us. It's Bullseye for Maximumfund.org

10:52

and NPR. This message

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apply.

11:28

Welcome back to Bullseye. I'm Jesse Thorne.

11:31

If you're just joining us, my guest is Boots Riley.

11:34

He's the front man and founder of the Bay

11:36

Area rap group, The Coup. He also

11:38

wrote and directed the movie, Sorry to Bother

11:40

You and the new TV show, I'm

11:42

a Virgo.

11:43

Let's get back into our conversation.

11:46

One time I went down to the San

11:48

Francisco Chronicle to visit my

11:51

friend Peter Hartlaub, who's a culture

11:53

critic there with

11:55

my dad, my late dad. And it's

11:58

been

11:59

in my mind. because it was Father's Day and

12:02

Peter is in charge of the morgue

12:04

at the Chronicle, which is where all the old

12:06

material sits. It's like the archive.

12:10

And

12:11

he was pulling articles about my dad

12:13

out of

12:15

the Chronicle from 1972 or

12:17

whatever. And we sat down

12:19

to do his podcast

12:22

and he goes, oh,

12:23

you know who I was just looking up? And

12:25

he showed me a picture of your dad. He

12:29

said, you know Boots Riley, right? I was like, here goes

12:31

Boots' dad at San Francisco State. Oh,

12:33

yeah. Your father was

12:35

an organizer and activist. Yes.

12:38

What work did he do? My father

12:41

joined the NAACP at the age of

12:43

like 12 or 14. And

12:46

through some of that work, did

12:48

stuff like when he was 18,

12:51

moderated a

12:53

debate between Floyd McKissick and Malcolm

12:55

X, and then

12:58

ended up joining CORE

13:01

and with CORE moved

13:04

to the Bay Area,

13:06

Congress of Racial Equality, and

13:09

started going to San Francisco State

13:12

and through there got involved in more radical organizations.

13:15

And he was part of

13:18

the Third World Liberation Front

13:20

that

13:21

organized the San Francisco

13:24

State strike, which created the first

13:26

school of ethnic studies.

13:29

And he

13:30

there from there was involved in a

13:33

radical organization called the Progressive Labor

13:35

Party, who then moved him to Chicago

13:38

and then to Detroit. And

13:41

he was involved in everything from auto

13:43

work to community

13:46

organizing. He split from that organization

13:49

and decided to go back

13:51

to law school. And so

13:54

when I was like, but before

13:56

that,

13:58

during that time, he was a...

13:59

all the way up to this, he was a bus

14:02

driver and a full-time

14:04

organizer for Progressive Labor Party

14:06

at one point. And for CORE,

14:08

I think maybe he was at... It

14:11

gets all blurry because you hear all sorts

14:13

of stuff. But so, yeah,

14:15

he met my mother at San Francisco

14:18

State. And

14:20

then when he decided to

14:23

go to law school, he

14:26

moved back to the Bay Area with us.

14:29

And so he became a lawyer

14:32

when I was about nine.

14:34

Yeah, I had the experience

14:36

of having both my

14:38

parents go to graduate school when I was a kid,

14:41

my mom when I was about that age, and my dad

14:43

a few years later. A lot of boring sitting around

14:45

books and libraries

14:48

being told to draw on long sheets

14:50

of yellow-lined paper.

14:52

Well, I mean, you got

14:54

that nice, long, legal paper. Yeah.

14:58

I had to write a drawing standard-sized

15:01

humanities paper.

15:04

Yeah, no,

15:06

that's people walking by

15:08

looking sorry, feeling sorry for

15:10

you because you're just sitting there drawing. I

15:13

sat through a lot of Latin American Studies classes

15:15

at San Francisco State as an eight-year-old.

15:18

But I

15:20

feel like in my experience

15:22

having been through that with both

15:24

my parents who both have very

15:27

colorful, long and colorful lives,

15:31

my mom's still having a long and colorful life. Yeah.

15:35

I feel like I learned a lot about

15:38

the choices that were available to

15:40

be made in life. That both

15:42

my parents went to graduate school not

15:45

because it was the next thing after going to

15:47

college, not just

15:49

because the ball was rolling down the hill, but

15:52

because they really

15:55

wanted to do something in particular. Oh,

15:57

yeah. And that definitely was... put

16:00

forward to me. I

16:03

didn't have the sense that my...

16:06

And I didn't even know about this other

16:08

idea of becoming a lawyer because

16:10

it somehow moves

16:12

you up the totem pole or whatever. He

16:14

was... And

16:15

all the people... He went to a law

16:18

school called Golden Gate, which at the

16:20

time was thought of as the radical law

16:22

school. And so

16:25

all the people we were around and him,

16:27

it was clear that

16:29

they thought that this was an extension

16:32

of the political work that they had been doing

16:35

before. And it wasn't

16:37

impressed upon me that there was some

16:40

sort of thing of having a successful career

16:43

or something like that. I didn't get that from

16:45

watching him. I got the

16:47

idea that you have to figure

16:50

out how to use yourself

16:53

to help

16:54

people, how to use yourself to

16:56

help build a movement. Because I would ask

16:58

him, especially like being eight,

17:01

nine years old, you're watching a lot

17:03

of cop shows, right? And

17:05

you're like, wait, so you're going to defend

17:08

the bad guys on TV? Because he was

17:10

being a criminal defense lawyer. And

17:12

so that was some of the first

17:15

talks I would get about what laws

17:17

were set up to do and who

17:19

the bad guys really were.

17:21

And it wasn't who

17:24

Starsky and Hutch would tell me it was.

17:30

But it was clear to me that

17:33

I was like, oh, okay, you're trying to help

17:36

people. There wasn't a

17:38

question for me about like, do

17:40

something that brings in

17:42

a good salary,

17:43

do something

17:45

that seems, you know, something

17:48

being honorable, you

17:51

know, a career that was honorable didn't have

17:53

to do with something that was

17:54

paying a lot. It just had to do with something

17:56

that was helping the world.

18:02

Your work, both your

18:04

music and your films, are

18:06

really fun. Like,

18:09

I hear

18:11

you saying that being on the picket line

18:13

is fun, and I know that's like something

18:16

you really believe in. Oh, yeah. And

18:18

I wonder, like,

18:20

when you inherit the mantle of

18:23

radical parents

18:25

who really believe in dedicating their

18:27

life to

18:29

making the world a better place. If

18:32

they gave you that, or if

18:35

that's that uncomfortably with them?

18:40

Well, as you kind of pointed

18:42

to, you learn from what your parents are doing, not

18:44

necessarily what they tell you. So I

18:47

don't know if I remember everything that

18:49

my father said to me, but I

18:51

know what I saw from him.

18:53

And

18:55

so when we were in Detroit,

18:57

like, I remember

18:59

there would just be a lot of parties, right?

19:02

That there would always be

19:04

people coming in and out of the house. I didn't know

19:07

if our door locked or not. Like, there'd

19:09

be all these folks. Matter

19:12

of fact, there's this, like, Barbara

19:14

Ransby, who's now

19:17

a very well-known academic. She

19:19

was one of the youth that would

19:21

be coming in and out of the house. Another guy named Wendell,

19:23

who they made a documentary about, who's

19:27

a male deliverer

19:30

in Detroit. You know, they would be

19:32

in there and just be full of people.

19:35

There'd be card parties and all this kind of stuff.

19:38

And only later did I realize that

19:40

those were meetings, right? So

19:42

because there'd be music playing. At some point,

19:44

people would start dancing. There'd be

19:47

bid-wist games happening. But

19:50

there would always be the part where people are sitting

19:52

around on couches and with their legs

19:54

crossed, and I would just kind of go sit on people's

19:57

legs or whatever,

19:57

you know, like, because I was there.

20:00

that young,

20:03

when I learned that that was organizing, I

20:06

realized that that was people

20:08

being in community. And so

20:11

that's kind of what I learned from

20:14

folks. And later on,

20:16

when I, you know,

20:18

so my father didn't just quit

20:22

Progressive Labor Party, he was part of a split.

20:25

And as people might know,

20:27

that's a lot more contentious

20:30

than someone just quitting an organization.

20:33

And so it

20:34

was definitely sitting uncomfortable

20:36

when I joined that same organization

20:39

that he had been part of a split

20:41

from. But what I will say is some

20:44

of the folks that I met there

20:46

that

20:48

I got to know through that all of a sudden,

20:51

because when I,

20:53

at the age of 14 and 15, started getting

20:55

involved with this organization because

20:58

of the youth side

21:00

of it that had gotten bigger at that point,

21:03

I met like the guy that was

21:05

running, that was the chairperson

21:07

of the organization at the time was a guy named Milt,

21:09

I don't know his last name, but he

21:12

had to be in the 80s, he

21:14

was in his 70s, right?

21:16

Very like rambunctious,

21:19

joking, you know, Jewish dude

21:21

that was like just always

21:24

cracking a joke. And this is the leader

21:26

of the organization.

21:28

And then there'd be these

21:30

folks that had gotten radicalized

21:33

during the mining strike in Britain

21:35

that had come over. And they would always be

21:37

like, how are you gonna convince someone to

21:39

go on strike if

21:42

you can't have a pint with them, right?

21:44

And so, and

21:48

these were effective organizers. This

21:50

is what I understood as effective organizers.

21:53

People who had organized

21:56

during those strike waves of the 30s

21:58

who had organized

21:59

in the

22:02

UK in these certain conditions.

22:05

And that

22:06

all of that put together,

22:08

let me know that it's about that

22:11

human connection and it's about an

22:13

optimism. That's where

22:15

the jokes come in, and in the sense

22:18

of like, it's not

22:20

just because you're trying to make light of things, you're trying

22:22

to understand things, you're putting those

22:24

contradictions together. But

22:28

by doing that, you

22:30

are showing that there is a way

22:33

out, that it's not just that

22:36

things are bad.

22:38

It's things

22:40

are bad because, and

22:42

so therefore,

22:44

this is what we're gonna do. And

22:46

to me, that's connected to the

22:49

quote unquote fun, that's connected to

22:51

this being alive, being connected

22:54

to people. I have a song

22:57

called, Laugh, Love, S***. And

22:59

it's really about like,

23:01

trying to put different parts of my

23:03

life together and understanding

23:06

that this need to feel alive

23:09

and connected and being part

23:11

of changing the world. And

23:13

I think that is,

23:16

I want my work to make

23:18

people feel alive.

23:20

And I also need it for myself, I need to

23:22

make that kind of stuff so that I feel alive.

23:26

What did your parents think about rap music?

23:28

Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I was

23:31

supported and I was

23:34

supported in doing what I was

23:36

doing. I mean, it's funny

23:38

because I was

23:40

working at UPS and

23:42

I met this dude named Pizzo the Beat Fixer,

23:45

who was Two Shorts DJ. And

23:48

I used my money from UPS. Matter

23:51

of fact, E-Rock was my ride to work

23:53

at UPS. And I was like, you should come to

23:55

the studio and be in the group, right?

23:59

This is one of the other members of your group,

24:02

the Koo. Yeah, yeah, one of the original

24:04

members.

24:05

And so we made these songs,

24:08

and we got them to Pizzo, the beat fixer, who

24:10

I had met at a rally where

24:13

I was speaking at UC Berkeley. And he was like, you

24:15

know that political, that

24:17

could sell, or whatever. And

24:20

so we got them these songs, and he put

24:22

them on this

24:24

compilation tape

24:25

that was with us, Spice1,

24:28

who also was working at UPS with

24:30

us, and a dude

24:33

named Mo Sadiez, who's Tupac's

24:35

brother, who went on to be called Mo Prem.

24:38

And this compilation was called

24:40

Dope Like a Pound or a Key.

24:41

Anyway, so I hadn't told my

24:44

father anything about this, and we're

24:46

driving down the street,

24:48

and

24:49

somebody pulls up next to us with

24:52

my song playing. And he's like,

24:56

that

24:56

guy sounds a lot like you.

24:59

You should maybe think about doing

25:01

stuff like that. And

25:03

I was like, yeah, that is me.

25:08

And he was like, oh, you know. And I

25:10

think he kind of felt

25:11

left out, and he didn't like

25:13

the contract that I had signed, because of course,

25:16

my whole family are lawyers, and I didn't

25:19

tell them about this and just

25:21

signed something. And I wasn't getting paid

25:24

from it, all that kind of stuff. And so I

25:27

told him I had all these other songs, and

25:29

he actually invested. We made a record

25:32

label called Polymic Records. And

25:35

so, yeah, he was very supportive.

25:38

I think our relationship,

25:41

he was around when we didn't know how

25:43

to perform back in the time as

25:46

we were learning, because back then, you

25:48

perform, and you don't do good, you

25:50

get booed.

25:51

Which I

25:53

think was really good for us. It made us

25:55

get better. And he

25:58

started having a...

26:00

kind of a stage dad sort of thing.

26:03

And so,

26:04

you know, when we got

26:07

our record deal, I was like,

26:09

we bought him out

26:11

and just kind of was

26:13

like, it's better for us to not

26:15

have this sort of a relationship.

26:19

That's both really intense and really cute

26:22

at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

26:24

I mean, yeah, don't know. So

26:27

definitely

26:28

very supportive. Separately, we kept

26:30

Polymic Records and we put out a

26:33

group called Point Blank Range

26:36

right after Point Blank is on

26:38

our, maybe on my first and

26:40

second album as well. Just

26:42

some friends and, but

26:45

you know,

26:46

as you know, it takes a lot to

26:49

do a record label. And

26:52

so we didn't really keep doing that.

26:54

Did you feel like you knew where the

26:57

coup fit into

26:59

a hip hop world that

27:01

when your record started coming

27:05

out was changing really fast and

27:07

a

27:08

local hip hop world that was changing

27:11

really fast and full of,

27:13

you know, I mean, this is like,

27:16

Hammer had changed the

27:18

face of selling rap

27:21

records forever. Yeah. Hughes

27:23

from Oakland. Yeah. And as a matter

27:25

of fact, the only, the reason we got signed

27:27

was so using what

27:29

I knew from organizing, I knew

27:31

with the EP

27:34

that we put out on Polymic Records that

27:36

we just had to plaster the city. So

27:39

everywhere you went in Oakland and San Francisco,

27:42

there were coup posters

27:44

and it happened to be after Hammer,

27:47

after Too Short,

27:49

after Digital Underground, Tony,

27:51

Tony, Tony, and you

27:54

know. And Vogue, we're just gonna keep. Yeah,

27:56

I don't know. I don't remember if they had come

27:59

out by then, but.

27:59

But yeah, oh yeah, they had.

28:02

Anyway,

28:04

so every record label was like, we have to

28:06

have a group from Oakland.

28:08

And we just made ourselves really visible.

28:10

And at some point to

28:13

where people were like, let me buy this thing

28:15

to see what the hell it is. Why

28:17

is that picture all over the place? And

28:20

so we were like number three

28:23

at the record store. And number one was E-40.

28:26

Number two was Dangerous Dame. And

28:29

they all were holding out for more money.

28:31

And I was like,

28:33

record deal, videos, let's do it.

28:36

So all of those things, that change

28:38

is why. And I don't know if we saw it as, cause

28:41

when you're young, a

28:42

year is a long time. Two

28:44

years is like an eternity.

28:47

So you don't really see

28:49

the curve of that change. You

28:51

just know it is,

28:53

if you're in the middle of all

28:55

of that. But yeah, we benefited from

28:58

that

28:58

wave that

29:01

was happening. We'll finish

29:03

up with Boots Riley in just a minute. If

29:05

you've seen his show, I'm a Virgo,

29:08

or his film, Sorry to Bother You, you

29:10

know how truly bonkers his

29:12

work can be.

29:13

I mean, I will just say that the horse people

29:16

in his feature film

29:18

are probably not the

29:20

craziest part of that movie. But

29:22

somehow his work is also

29:26

very personal and humane. We'll

29:29

talk about how and why he creates

29:32

that very specific tone on

29:34

screen. It's Bullseye from

29:36

MaximumFun.org and NPR.

29:38

This message comes from NPR sponsor,

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30:21

I'm

30:30

Jesse Thorne. I'm talking with Boots Riley. I want

30:32

to talk about, I'm a Virgo, your TV show for a minute. And

30:40

we're being mindful of the fact that we're going

30:43

to be talking

30:46

about the best of our lives.

30:49

And we're gonna talk about how to get to the best of

30:52

our lives. And we're gonna talk about

30:54

how to get to the best of our lives. And

30:56

we're gonna talk about how to get to the best of

30:59

our lives. And we're being mindful of the strike

31:01

action and of the

31:04

writers guild. And potentially, by

31:06

the time this comes out, it could even also

31:09

include SAG-AFTRA.

31:12

But I really love

31:14

the show and want to talk about it for a minute.

31:16

Yeah, well, WGA has said

31:19

that as long as we

31:21

are

31:22

setting this up ourselves or with our own publicist,

31:25

that

31:26

it's fine. That

31:29

took me a second to figure out whether,

31:32

was that in the spirit of the strike?

31:34

But talking to some of the folks that

31:36

are in the leadership of the WGA, they were like,

31:39

we decided that we'd

31:42

rather people be out there talking about

31:44

the strike than not.

31:48

Well, great. Let's get into it

31:50

for a minute. How long did

31:52

you have the central idea

31:54

of this show, which is a young

31:57

man in Oakland? who

32:00

is huge. Yeah, and

32:03

mythologically huge. Yeah, so,

32:06

and

32:07

this is important to the beginning

32:09

of it. First, I started

32:12

writing it four years ago. Started writing

32:14

it the beginning of 2019.

32:18

So if I backtrack from

32:20

that, it's probably a couple months before

32:22

that, end of 2018. And

32:25

for me, the one part

32:28

that was left out of that was one

32:30

of the things that initiated it. It's

32:33

about a 13 foot tall black

32:35

man,

32:37

young black man, who

32:38

lives in Oakland, and

32:39

it's called Ama Virgo. So what I do is,

32:42

I think with my art, as I was

32:44

talking about maybe earlier, but I'm getting

32:46

a little confused, I

32:48

am often looking for the contradictions in

32:50

things and the

32:53

ironies. And to

32:55

me,

32:57

when you're analyzing something,

33:00

what you're doing is pointing

33:03

out the contradictions. This part works

33:05

against that part. This

33:07

part affects that other part. So

33:10

you're looking at contradictions, and

33:12

those contradictions exist

33:16

in irony. And irony is

33:18

the main driver

33:20

behind comedy and tragedy. And so I don't

33:22

know where it came from, but

33:26

what I started thinking of is if you see this, if

33:29

you saw a 13 foot tall

33:31

black man coming down the street, the

33:36

last thing you're thinking about

33:38

is what he thinks about himself. All

33:40

of these different things,

33:42

and so I tried to come up with what's one of

33:46

the most trivial things he could care about himself.

33:50

That he would think is important to him, and that

33:52

was, I'm a Virgo. And so

33:55

that's what I'm thinking of. And

33:57

I'm not a Virgo. I'm a Virgo. where

34:00

that started with. I didn't know

34:04

what the storyline was. And I started, you

34:06

know, and I was like pitching people.

34:09

13-foot-tall black man in Oakland. Whoa, and

34:11

people were like, we want to do it. You know, that

34:14

sort of thing. So... I mean,

34:16

the thing that I think is really

34:18

beautiful about this character is his

34:21

19-year-oldness. Mm-hmm.

34:26

Because his hugeness

34:29

obviously has ramifications

34:33

for, you know, practical things about his life. They're

34:35

very sweet and funny. Yeah. And

34:37

it has ramifications around his race,

34:40

like metaphorical resonances.

34:43

Yeah. But one of the things

34:46

that this

34:47

story reveals is

34:51

the feelings of being a

34:53

new adult. That he is entering

34:56

the world for the first time because he's been hidden by his

34:58

parents. Yeah. And now

35:00

he feels like because

35:02

he is the most conspicuous thing

35:05

in the world.

35:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and

35:09

the easy thing to call it is a coming

35:12

of age story. But that kind

35:14

of obfuscates what

35:16

I'm going for there is that if

35:19

you are doing it right, where

35:23

every age should be a coming of

35:25

age story, you should be hopefully

35:27

discovering something new about the world

35:29

in relationship to yourself and

35:33

going through these experiences in which

35:37

you resituate

35:40

the world in your brain and

35:45

are blown away by it. Like,

35:48

I think maybe, you know, I don't know, but

35:51

maybe part of the key to just

35:53

not being bored with life

35:56

and feeling

35:57

invigorated and.

35:59

and feeling like you're

36:02

powerful. And so, yeah, I

36:04

wanted

36:04

someone who was not going

36:07

to be inconsequential in whatever

36:09

space

36:11

he was going to be in. Why

36:13

is the show set in Oakland? As Sorry

36:16

to Bother, your future was. I'm

36:19

just a better artist in a place

36:21

that I know, right?

36:22

I'm

36:27

able to look

36:29

at

36:30

everything from people to

36:32

architecture to

36:37

other situations and not

36:40

feel like an outsider.

36:42

One

36:44

time, I

36:46

can tell people so far in

36:48

the past now that there's an album that

36:50

I never talk about that me

36:52

and M1 from Dead Prez, we got paid

36:55

to come to France and do an album

36:57

with Jeff Beck and

37:00

Tony Hymas and a bunch of these musicians.

37:03

And it was kind of like

37:07

in the producer was like, I don't want you to write

37:09

it before you come. I want you to write

37:11

it here in Paris. And you know, it's a different thing.

37:13

I'm not, you know,

37:15

I'm not definitely not something

37:17

I'm proud of my work on. I think the album sounds

37:20

amazing without

37:22

at least one of the rappers that are on

37:24

there. Right.

37:25

And

37:26

I think, you know, I think

37:29

I'm just a better filmmaker where

37:32

I am. There's nuances

37:34

and details that

37:37

I can play with and that I think

37:39

so much of film

37:41

right now kind of becomes it

37:43

can be anywhere. It can be anywhere,

37:46

maybe anytime sometimes, but anywhere,

37:49

anybody, all this sorts of

37:51

stuff. And it just becomes

37:53

bland and flat. And that's part

37:55

of that. That has something to do with the economics

37:58

of things and where things are shot.

37:59

and also the fact that usually

38:02

something is a producer has an idea

38:04

and then they, you know, they're

38:07

not impassioned enough about it to write

38:09

it themselves. So they hire

38:11

somebody who really wants to do something

38:13

else, but it's like, fine, I'm getting money

38:16

for this.

38:17

I'll write this for you. And then they

38:20

hire a director that is doing

38:22

that too. So it's kind of like we lose

38:24

all these details. That might just seem

38:27

like weird, strange things, but

38:29

that make it

38:32

that make it important, that

38:34

make it feel real. And it's

38:36

weird that I might talk about feeling real

38:39

when obviously I'm doing all

38:41

sorts of crazy stuff, but I

38:43

need those. I need certain

38:45

details to to to feel real

38:48

so that I can

38:49

use them as grounding

38:51

to go somewhere else. And that that could be anywhere

38:53

from an angle on

38:56

on a building to, you

38:59

know, the way someone is standing,

39:02

all those sorts of things. So so, yeah,

39:04

I

39:05

like it because of that. Also, I want

39:08

to create.

39:10

I want to create a scene

39:13

in Oakland where artists are

39:15

working together and

39:18

you can have a lot more

39:21

of the same people you work with

39:23

over and over. And we don't really

39:25

we don't have much of a film scene right

39:27

now in the Bay Area. And this show

39:30

itself, we had to film a

39:32

large part of it in Louisiana. Some

39:35

of that came down to calculations

39:37

that we made about where we

39:41

from the get go decided we were going

39:43

to have to build a lot of sets

39:45

in order to do the forced perspective that

39:48

we did because we filmed most of this. Most

39:50

of the effects were in camera. And

39:54

so we thought we were going to need more space than we

39:56

actually did. So that kind of made it lean.

39:59

toward, well, you're doing that anyway,

40:02

so go here. But then we

40:04

filmed a lot of the exteriors in

40:06

Oakland, but the ones, the

40:09

exteriors that we did film in New Orleans,

40:12

they were lost opportunities where

40:15

you're filming

40:16

so that it doesn't look like New Orleans as

40:18

opposed to filming

40:20

either the beauty of New Orleans

40:22

or the beauty of Oakland. It's

40:25

like picking shots

40:27

like that is like marrying someone because they're

40:30

not abusive. That's just not

40:32

the right reason. It's

40:34

a special opportunity that

40:37

I can see that you take seriously to be able

40:39

to show the

40:42

community to itself, whether it's even

40:44

when it's in this,

40:46

as you said, lots of fantastical

40:49

and ridiculous and silly stuff happens

40:52

in the show as it did in Sorry

40:54

to Bother You, but

40:57

that you have the opportunity to give people

40:59

a look at something that they recognize as

41:01

being theirs.

41:03

Yeah, definitely. And I

41:06

think, you know, while I would like to say

41:08

that it's just altruistic

41:11

and I want to do that for

41:13

the people of Oakland,

41:15

it's also the people of the

41:17

Bay Area as well. The area

41:20

is what inspires my art in

41:22

the first place. So that's just

41:25

what gets made. That's what gets

41:27

made. And that is,

41:31

you know, one of the outcomes is that I'm

41:34

painting a crazy picture

41:37

of the area. I

41:39

think it gets to other things. It

41:41

gets to other aspects

41:44

of humanity.

41:48

When art is from a place,

41:51

you know, I can't believe that

41:53

you have this many ideas and things

41:56

and that not only that

41:58

you think it will work. work, but

42:01

then at least from my perspective, it

42:03

does work. Like, do you

42:05

have like a list of 700 crazy

42:08

things that could happen in something and make

42:12

sure 10 crazy ideas happen in every 30

42:16

minutes of Booth's Riley on film? No,

42:19

I mean, you know, I think, you know,

42:21

I actually do that with,

42:24

you know, lyrics, sometimes you're sitting around and

42:27

oh, this is an idea, let me write it down for

42:29

later. And then sometimes you're

42:31

writing a song and you go back and you look

42:33

through that notebook and like, I know there's

42:36

something in there, oh yeah. But

42:39

that doesn't always feel as organic,

42:41

but for me, it's just more, I

42:44

create a problem and then

42:46

the crazy thing

42:48

that

42:51

you see

42:52

is me having worked out that

42:54

problem,

42:56

how to get out of that scenario.

42:59

And in some way the problem earns the

43:02

solution, even if the solution is a crazy

43:04

one. Yeah, yeah. And often the

43:06

problem is talking about like,

43:09

you know, how do I make someone feel

43:11

something that

43:13

would normally be on screen

43:15

and idea, right? I want you

43:18

to experience that. And

43:21

that's usually where the problem is. And

43:24

so, for instance, Flora, who

43:25

is played by Olivia

43:29

Washington, she experiences

43:32

life in a much slower way

43:37

than we do, but how we experience

43:39

her is she's moving extra

43:41

fast and we've seen

43:44

people move fast on screen before

43:46

and whatever, but what

43:48

I wanted to do was like simulate

43:51

what that feeling

43:53

would be, that feeling would feel

43:55

uncanny and like it's

43:58

not supposed to be happening.

43:59

And so what we did was every

44:02

time we filmed her moving fast,

44:05

Olivia Washington, we had three

44:07

women

44:08

about her height

44:10

in

44:11

colored spandex that we would then film

44:14

doing the same actions with

44:16

a strobe light. And so we have this

44:19

weird strobe, different

44:21

color people thing that doesn't

44:23

say she's

44:24

going fast technically. It doesn't really

44:27

say that, but it

44:29

says something strange

44:31

is happening.

44:32

And so I wanted that

44:35

feeling like, oh, something, I

44:37

wanted that feeling as

44:39

opposed to the action only,

44:43

as opposed to

44:44

just the idea. And then on larger

44:46

ideas. So there are other

44:49

ideas like,

44:51

I wanted

44:53

Jones's character to be

44:55

really good at arguing. And

44:58

so there was a way to do that, which

45:01

just make her dialogue a lot

45:03

more convincing, because that's what

45:05

it might be. But

45:08

I wanted to talk about what the

45:11

feeling of being exposed

45:13

to that new idea might

45:15

be like. And I have

45:17

this material that

45:20

juts out from

45:21

behind her and puts them in kind of a black box

45:25

theater sort of a thing, and

45:27

where everything is made by stagecraft

45:30

and looks like that. I

45:33

mean, everything is made to look like stagecraft.

45:37

And so I wanted,

45:39

yeah, I'm looking for ways to make

45:42

you feel a thing. And

45:45

for me, that

45:47

means I have to do something that hasn't

45:49

been done. And it has to come

45:51

from wanting to solve that problem

45:54

for that feeling.

45:56

Boots, I so appreciate your time. And I'm

45:59

just, I'm so. happy and excited

46:02

about your work. It's such

46:04

a joy to me. So thank you so much for coming. Thanks

46:06

for having me. I enjoy listening to the

46:08

show.

46:09

Boots Riley, a true legend.

46:13

If you haven't seen Sorry to Bother You, his film,

46:15

it is absolutely a wild

46:18

ride. It's so funny and moving

46:21

and invigorating, and scary

46:23

and crazy too. I absolutely

46:27

love I'm a Virgo. I hope

46:29

that you will watch it. It is warm

46:31

and fun and funny, and again, like

46:34

surreal and scary, all kinds of things.

46:37

And if you like rap music at all,

46:39

go listen to the coup. I really

46:41

think Boots is one of the greatest rappers of all time.

46:44

["Bools

46:47

Eye"] That's

46:48

the end of another episode of

46:51

Bulls Eye. Bulls Eye is created from

46:53

the homes of me and the staff

46:55

of Maximum Fun in and around

46:57

Greater Los Angeles, California. But

47:00

we're going into the office too. When I was last

47:03

in the office on Sunday night to record my

47:05

comedy show, Jordan Jesse Go, the Levitt

47:07

Pavilion in MacArthur Park was

47:10

jamming, and the whole, all

47:13

the windows, everything, everything

47:15

in our office was shaking with

47:17

tuba sounds from a band band. If

47:20

you're in LA, go watch those fun

47:22

MacArthur Park Levitt Pavilion concerts.

47:25

Our show is produced by speaking into microphones.

47:28

Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our

47:30

producers are Jesus Ambrosio and Richard

47:32

Roby. Our production fellow at Maximum

47:34

Fun is Brianna Paz. We get booking

47:37

help from Mera Davis. Our interstitial

47:39

music is composed and provided to us

47:41

by DJW, also known

47:43

as Dan Wale. Our theme song is

47:45

by The Go Team. It's called Huddle Formation.

47:48

Thanks to The Go Team,

47:48

thanks to Memphis Industries, their label

47:51

for sharing it with us. Bulls Eye

47:53

is also on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.

47:55

Find us in those places, follow us, we share

47:57

our interviews there. I hope that you will share our.

47:59

interviews with somebody

48:02

you know who's a metal head

48:04

or loves crazy TV shows

48:06

or rap music or just

48:09

is interested in the world. Please share our interviews.

48:11

Okay, I think that's about it. Just remember, all

48:14

great radio hosts have a signature sign-off.

48:16

Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is

48:19

a production of MaximumFun.org

48:21

and is distributed by NPR.

48:28

Hey, it's A. Martinez here to tell you about NPR+. NPR

48:30

Plus gives you access to sponsor-free

48:32

versions of your favorite NPR podcasts such as

48:35

Up First and even special bonus episodes

48:37

from shows such as Fresh Air and Planet Money.

48:40

And the best part? It all supports

48:42

public media. Learn more at plus.npr.org.

48:46

That's P-L-U-S dot N-P-R

48:48

dot org.