0:00

This message comes from NPR sponsor

0:02

Hulu. Based on shocking true events,

0:04

the new Hulu original series, Under

0:06

the Bridge, tells the story of

0:09

a savage murder in a small

0:11

town. Starring Riley Keough and Lily

0:13

Gladstone, Under the Bridge is now

0:16

streaming with new episodes Wednesdays only

0:18

on Hulu. Bullseye

0:21

with Jesse Thorne

0:24

is a production

0:27

of maximumfun.org and

0:30

is distributed by

0:33

NPR. It's Bullseye,

0:35

I'm Jesse Thorne. Throughout his

0:38

almost 50-year music career, Raffi

0:40

has fought for kids.

0:54

He's done it with beautiful fun and

0:56

funny music, and he's done it as

0:58

an activist. He's on the really short

1:00

list of children's performers who connect directly

1:03

with the youngest people, with an

1:05

open heart untainted by the

1:07

slightest condescension. After

1:09

years of working on his foundation, the

1:11

Raffi Foundation for Child Honoring, he returned

1:13

to the road and record stores with

1:15

his 2014 album, Love

1:17

Bug. That's when I talked to him. Everybody's

1:21

got a love bug deep

1:26

inside Everybody's

1:29

got a love bug for

1:32

their own Everybody's

1:38

got a love bug, a

1:42

love bug deep inside Love

1:46

bug, where

1:49

the hugs come from And

1:54

Raffi is still recording and

1:56

still touring and still advocating

1:58

for young, vulnerable voices. He

2:00

just released a brand new album his 24th

2:03

called Penny Penguin. Here's the title

2:05

track. Penny

2:09

Penguin in your

2:11

penguin suit. Fucking

2:13

waddle. Oh so cute. Penny

2:17

Penguin. Oh

2:21

Penny Penguin. Penny

2:26

Penguin with your penguin pals.

2:30

Hot metal on the snow and

2:32

ice to the water. What I

2:34

knew about where you came from

2:36

was essentially that you came from

2:38

the depths of my childhood. I

2:46

came from my mother. Yeah.

2:49

I was

2:51

really interested to read about your

2:55

cultural background. Your parents are Armenian and

2:57

you were born and lived until you

2:59

were about 10 in Egypt

3:03

before you moved to Canada. Yeah in Cairo. What

3:06

do you remember most about growing up in

3:08

Cairo? Well I remember the sand.

3:11

I remember the pyramids. My

3:14

father was a portrait photographer

3:16

of renown even in Cairo. He

3:19

had a portrait studio

3:21

a half a block long and the

3:24

family used to go to church on

3:26

Sunday mornings. I remember the Armenian choir

3:28

singing those soulful songs

3:31

and you know most

3:33

Sundays he'd take us. My

3:35

father would take us in the 1948 Studebaker two-tone green.

3:39

We'd pile into it and

3:42

drive out of Cairo to Giza and

3:44

the pyramids and that was amazing

3:46

just to be able to do that. Also

3:51

I think you know

3:53

I was a little kid in Cairo when I was mesmerized

3:55

by the environment I was in. I was learning. to

4:00

speak Armenian and Turkish from

4:02

my grandparents and also learning

4:04

Arabic. So it

4:07

was very, just a

4:09

lot going on and very

4:11

vibrant experience for a little

4:13

kid. Why did your family move to Canada?

4:16

I think my father realized that

4:20

his sons and daughter, you know, the

4:22

kids would have a much

4:24

brighter future in a country like Canada. And

4:28

so I really take my

4:30

hat off to his very brave decision to

4:32

leave a very prosperous

4:34

business and relocate in

4:37

a new land. What did your parents

4:39

think about North American teenage culture when

4:41

they brought their teenagers to North America?

4:43

Well, you know, my parents, I mean,

4:46

I was having the immigrant experience every

4:48

little kid has in a new land.

4:50

My parents were trying to keep me

4:52

Armenian. I was listening to

4:54

pop music and pop music was

4:56

winning. You

4:59

know, and yet I understand why they tried to

5:01

keep me Armenian. It's just sometimes they

5:03

were a bit heavy handed about it. I

5:06

sang in the Armenian church choir and that was cool.

5:10

But I you know, what was exciting

5:12

for me was getting my first guitar

5:14

from Richmond's trading post upon shop in

5:16

Toronto. Paid twenty four dollars

5:19

for it. Started to teach myself how

5:21

to play and got,

5:23

you know, guitar, chord books and

5:25

and really got swept away by

5:27

the music of the 60s. Did

5:31

you think that you could become a musician? I

5:33

tried to become someone like a

5:35

James Taylor. That's what I

5:37

was after. And my folk music

5:40

career, I don't know,

5:42

interesting and sweet as it was, was

5:44

always a struggle. And I wasn't comfortable

5:46

on stage for various reasons. I

5:49

didn't have my best gigs when I should have had them. And

5:52

so it just wasn't happening

5:54

for me as a folk singer. And I was

5:56

ready to give it up and become a carpenter.

5:59

And. And then one day, as

6:03

luck would have it, my

6:05

then kindergarten teacher wife and

6:08

I decided to make an album for children.

6:11

And that album was Singable Songs for the Very Young back in

6:13

1976, and it became an instant,

6:18

instantly popular album, and

6:20

it changed my life. You

6:23

mentioned that you had a hard time performing

6:25

on stage sometimes as

6:28

an adult folk musician. How

6:31

was it different to perform for

6:33

school-age kids? Well

6:38

that's the funny thing. I found it easy.

6:42

I was interested in these young kids,

6:44

and I was curious about how

6:47

they were different than adults, and then I learned

6:49

about that. And the more I learned about kids,

6:51

the more I respected the kinds of people they

6:53

were. You can't, of course, generalize.

6:56

I'm not trying to say kids are all the

6:58

same, you know, they're individuals, but you

7:00

can notice in early childhood traits

7:03

of what it is to be a

7:05

young child. You're spontaneous, curious,

7:09

sometimes loud, honest,

7:12

to a fault, and

7:14

you have a lot of pure love inside you. And I

7:16

think all of the above just kind of enchanted

7:20

me. By

7:22

1978 I was devoting myself to making

7:26

music for children and being known

7:29

as a children's entertainer because I

7:31

came to understand how important

7:33

music can be in the

7:35

life of a young child. I

7:38

want to play a little bit of probably

7:41

your best-known song. And

7:44

I have to say, a song that means a

7:46

lot to me personally, Baby Beluga.

7:48

Let's take a listen. Baby

7:51

Beluga in the deep blue

7:53

sea, swim so wild

7:55

and you swim so free, heaven

7:58

above in the sea. below

8:00

and a little white whale on the

8:02

gold. Baby

8:06

Beluga, Baby

8:09

Beluga, is the

8:11

water warm, is

8:14

your mama home with

8:16

you so happy? Way

8:19

down yonder where the dolphins

8:21

came. You're listening

8:23

to Bullseye, I'm Jesse Thorn. You probably

8:25

know my guest. He's the children's performer,

8:27

Raffi. When

8:30

you started touring for kids

8:33

and recording for kids, how

8:35

did you feel out what

8:37

kind of performer you wanted to

8:39

be? Like what the values of

8:42

your performances were? Because I know that

8:45

you're a very values driven guy. Well

8:50

I think it was all about

8:52

respect for the child as a whole person. That's

8:56

what drove the

8:59

songs I decided to record. And

9:02

respect is also the value that shaped

9:05

the tone of my recordings, the

9:07

tone of my singing, the invitational

9:10

tone in the concerts.

9:12

And right

9:14

from the beginning, we didn't make

9:16

the concerts 90 minutes with a long intermission

9:19

in the middle. When I say

9:21

we, I'm including my

9:23

then kindergarten teacher wife and I

9:25

and our primary school friends who were

9:28

kind of a force and we discussed

9:30

these things. We knew that

9:32

little kids didn't need more than 45 minutes. That

9:37

to hold their attention for that long was quite

9:40

something. So we tailored those

9:42

early shows to be 45, 50 minutes. And

9:45

even now they're no longer than an hour. And

9:49

that seems like we've had, by

9:51

then we've had enough time together type of thing. So

9:56

in various ways, the concerts

9:58

were tailored. to

10:02

be considerate of the young child. And

10:06

I think Pete Seeger was quite an influence

10:09

on me. He was such a sing-along master

10:12

that I also

10:14

wanted my concerts to be sing-along

10:16

concerts, and that's

10:18

the way they turned out. More

10:21

with the great children's singer Raffi after the break.

10:23

Stay with us. It's a bullseye

10:26

from maximumfun.org and NPR. This

10:28

message comes from NPR sponsor Hulu.

10:31

Dive into the chilling new Hulu

10:33

original series Under the Bridge, the

10:35

riveting adaptation of the acclaimed true

10:37

crime book. Based on shocking true

10:40

events, Under the Bridge tells the

10:42

haunting story of a murder that

10:44

lays bare a small community's darkest

10:46

secrets. Go deep into the hidden

10:49

world of the town's tormented teenagers

10:51

as detectives race to solve the

10:53

sinister crime. Starring Riley

10:55

Keough and Lily Gladstone, Under the

10:57

Bridge is now streaming with

10:59

new episodes Wednesdays only on

11:01

Hulu. This. Message comes

11:04

from Capital One offering commercial

11:06

solutions you can bank on

11:08

now more than ever. Your

11:10

business faces unique challenges and

11:12

opportunities. That's why Capital One

11:14

offers a comprehensive sweet A

11:16

financial services all tailored to

11:18

your short and long term

11:20

goals backed by the strength

11:22

and stability of a top

11:24

ten commercial bank. Very dedicated

11:27

experts at work with you

11:29

to build lasting success. Explore

11:31

the possibilities at Capital one.com/commercial.

11:33

A Member F B I see. This.

11:35

Message comes from and he sponsor

11:37

Mintmobile from the gas pump to

11:40

the grocery store. Inflation is everywhere.

11:42

So Mintmobile is offering premium wireless

11:44

starting a just fifteen dollars a

11:47

month. To get your newfound plan

11:49

for just fifteen dollars, go to

11:51

mintmobile.com/switch. This

11:58

is Balls I I'm Jesse Thorn. My

12:00

guest is singer and activist. Raffi.

12:03

Early on, at the end

12:05

of the 70s, beginning of the 80s, were

12:08

there inflection points where

12:10

you had to make

12:12

choices based

12:17

on the kind of person and the kind of

12:20

performer that you wanted to be that might have

12:22

been difficult choices or choices

12:24

that made you feel like

12:26

you were going to

12:28

be less famous or less financially

12:30

successful or whatever? Well,

12:34

the major decision was to become

12:36

a children's entertainer and to be proud of

12:38

that and to be devoted to that calling.

12:41

I think another aspect was knowing

12:44

clearly that I was not going to do any

12:46

commercial endorsements of any kind, and I haven't done

12:48

one in all these years. Along

12:51

the way, I understood also that you

12:53

don't, if

12:57

you respect your young audience, you don't

12:59

directly advertise or market to

13:01

them either. So I've never done

13:04

that, and I consider it unethical

13:09

for anyone to market directly

13:11

to young children. It's exploitative

13:14

of their innocence. So

13:16

those are the major decisions. I'd

13:19

like to hear more about the whys

13:23

of those two rules.

13:26

Tell me why you chose never

13:29

to make commercial endorsements. Well, I

13:32

didn't want to be selling fast foods to kids. I

13:35

wanted to be making music for them. I

13:38

didn't see why my popularity

13:41

should be an influence in

13:43

their choice of

13:45

what products to buy. I

13:47

didn't want that at all. And again, when

13:50

you consider who my inspirations were

13:53

musically, you had

13:55

people like, well, I mentioned Pete Seeger.

13:57

He was a huge influence on me.

14:00

integrity. It was

14:02

all about the music as it should be. So

14:05

I turned down every kind of commercial

14:08

endorsement offer you can imagine from

14:12

you know soup companies

14:14

to diapers to fast

14:16

foods and it wasn't even a

14:18

hard choice. I mean

14:21

I didn't have to think about it. It was no. When

14:25

you say yes to the young child, when you

14:27

say yes to respecting the young child, it's easy

14:29

to say no to the marketers.

14:33

What do you think is the difference between

14:35

writing a song for a young

14:38

kid and writing a

14:40

song for an adult

14:42

besides just you

14:44

know not swearing? I think

14:47

you're keeping in mind the child's

14:50

realm of experience. You

14:52

know it's at the beginning of life. You

14:54

don't want to overpower the

14:57

young brain. You want

15:01

to serve you know

15:03

tonal colors that delight hopefully.

15:08

You can have a wide variety of musical

15:10

styles but there's a you

15:13

know it's incumbent on you to just serve

15:15

them with some grace and

15:18

not hyper frenzy hopefully because

15:21

that's not what they need.

15:24

Do you have children yourself? No

15:27

I don't. You

15:29

don't have to answer this question if you don't want to but was

15:32

that a choice on your part? Yes

15:35

it was. I just realized

15:38

one day that it wasn't necessary

15:40

for me to have children of my own and

15:43

the woman I was married to at the

15:45

time felt the same way. We didn't feel the calling

15:47

to have our own kids so we

15:49

just went with that. Do

15:52

you think that affects the way that

15:54

you connect with the many

15:56

many hundreds and thousands of kids?

16:00

that you interact with all the time? I'm

16:02

not sure that's a factor because I imagine

16:05

that if I had my own kids, I

16:07

would still love children just

16:09

as much, if not more. I

16:13

think what I observe, what I

16:15

feel is, I don't

16:18

know how to even say it, but a growing love

16:21

and respect for the child as a

16:23

whole person. And

16:26

I say that without trying to say

16:29

that children are all things nice, sugar and spice

16:31

and all that kind of stuff. But

16:34

there's just something about the young

16:36

child whose

16:38

intelligence is innate and

16:40

boundless and creative that

16:45

when I meet kids, that

16:47

pure love that resides in them is

16:50

palpable and it's moving. Do

16:53

you remember your emotional life

16:55

as a little kid? I

16:57

have these little flashes, but I'm not somebody

16:59

that remembers those kinds of things well and

17:02

I always regret it. Yeah,

17:05

I remember very well the feeling of bewilderment

17:08

in my childhood. I felt that the

17:11

adults who were

17:13

around me loved me dearly and yet

17:16

they hit me at times and they

17:18

mocked me. And I didn't understand, I

17:23

felt really conflicted about what was happening.

17:26

So that

17:29

might have something to

17:31

do with the fact that when I was in

17:33

my teens, I felt like quite a rebel. I

17:35

was the class clown in various ways. I

17:38

think I was looking to humor and to music

17:41

to help

17:45

me find some solace in life

17:47

and to forget some of

17:50

that pain within me about,

17:52

as I say, being loved but not

17:55

having felt respected for the person that I was.

17:58

How do you feel? you are

18:01

affected as an adult

18:04

when you go out on

18:06

a stage and interact with 100 or

18:08

500 or 1000

18:15

kids and

18:18

kind of have a chance to see the

18:20

world their way. Well

18:24

the concerts are for me just

18:26

a such a

18:28

hugely loving experience. They're

18:30

also work I mean I really have to work

18:32

to remember the words to stay in the moment

18:35

to play the guitar just right you

18:37

know and keep the

18:39

groove of the song moving but you

18:42

know I'm mostly sensing

18:44

a tremendous love in the room and

18:48

going with that energy and

18:53

like I say hoping that I remember

18:55

all the words to all the songs because you

18:57

can easily lose yourself to the fun of the

18:59

moment too you know. Well Raffi I'm surprised to

19:02

hear you say that the work of a concert

19:04

is not

19:06

messing up the performance element

19:09

of it because you're surprised by that

19:11

well I'm surprised by that because you

19:13

know I'm not surprised that it's that

19:16

sometimes you might have a hard time remembering

19:18

the words to a song you

19:21

know I've performed and forgotten what I was

19:23

supposed to say it's hard but

19:25

I I would think that the first

19:27

thing that you would say would be

19:29

the big challenge of performing is Raffi

19:31

is that you're performing for a bunch

19:34

of you know three and four

19:36

and five and six and seven

19:39

year olds who are you

19:41

know who are all going their own

19:43

directions like that the big

19:45

challenge would be in the same way that in the same

19:47

way that if I talked to a stand-up comic you

19:50

know a big part of

19:52

what their work is is getting up on

19:54

stage and just getting everyone point in the

19:56

same direction. Here's

19:58

the thing in concert for me, what

20:01

I know is that families come to enjoy

20:03

the concert together, the children are not there

20:06

by themselves. So that's

20:09

a grounding element to

20:11

the show. And children and their

20:14

parents come wanting to hear their favorite

20:16

raffi songs, and I know that. And

20:19

while I can't sing every single one of

20:22

their favorites, I certainly sing enough that

20:24

they feel right away, right from

20:26

the start, connected to the music

20:28

that they love. And

20:30

I think it's that beautiful connection at the

20:32

beginning of the show that allows for the

20:35

rest of the show to go well, and for

20:38

me to take some chances here and there with

20:41

a song that they might not know. And

20:45

the songs that they do

20:47

know become the toys that

20:49

we are there to play with. And

20:51

it's a lovely experience. Right

20:54

now I'm imagining you opening with Baby Beluga and like

20:56

two-thirds of the way through you hit him with smoke

20:58

on the water. Jesse.

21:04

So tell me, Raffi,

21:06

what's the song that you can open a show with

21:08

and you got all those kids

21:14

and parents on your side? Well,

21:16

that's pretty easy. The more

21:18

we get together. The first song

21:20

that I ever recorded on

21:22

the very first children's album. So

21:25

it's a lovely little waltz to sing

21:27

and everybody knows the words and you

21:29

know, and then we sing it a

21:31

little bit louder and a little bit

21:33

more confidently and everybody gets

21:36

in the groove. It's great. There are

21:38

other songs that I can start a

21:40

concert with. There's a song called You

21:43

Gotta Sing When the Spirit Says Sing.

21:45

There's one called Time to

21:47

Sing. There's all kinds of songs I could

21:49

start with. But currently I've been starting

21:51

with the waltz. Well, let's hear

21:54

a little bit of Raffi. This is from what,

21:56

like 1977 or something like that?

22:01

76, 76, performing the more we get together. The

22:04

more we get together, together,

22:07

together, the more we get

22:09

together, the happier we'll be,

22:12

because you're my friends, and

22:14

my friends are your friends,

22:17

the more we get together,

22:19

the happier we'll be. The

22:23

more we get together, together,

22:26

together, the more we get

22:28

together, the happier we'll be.

22:32

Even more Bullseye still to come. After

22:34

a break, we will wrap up with

22:36

Raffi. It's Bullseye from maximumfun.org and NPR.

22:40

This message comes from NPR sponsor,

22:42

Teladoc Health. There are lots

22:45

of reasons for wanting

22:47

to be healthy. Family, work,

22:49

living a fuller life.

22:51

Teladoc Health understands. Whether you

22:54

have diabetes, high blood

22:56

pressure, or just need to

22:58

manage your weight, Teladoc

23:00

Health can help. Visit teladochealth.com/whatsyourwhy

23:03

for more information. That's

23:05

T-E-L-A-D-O-C health slash whatsyourwhy. Hey,

23:08

when you listen to podcasts, it really

23:10

just comes down to whether or not

23:12

you like the sound of everyone's voices.

23:14

My voice is one of the sounds

23:16

you'll hear on the podcast, Dr. Game

23:18

Show, and this is the voice of

23:20

co-host and fearless leader, Joe Firestone. This

23:23

is a podcast where we play games

23:25

submitted by listeners and we play them

23:27

with callers over Zoom we've never spoken

23:29

to in our lives. So that is

23:32

basically the concept of the show. Pretty

23:34

chill. So take it or leave it,

23:36

Bucko. And here's what some of

23:38

the listeners have to say. It's

23:40

funny, wholesome, and it never fails to make

23:42

me smile. I just started listening and

23:44

I'm already binging it. I haven't laughed

23:46

this hard in ages. I wish I

23:48

had discovered it sooner. You can find

23:50

Dr. Game Show on maximumfun.org. my

24:00

2014 interview with Raffi. The singer

24:02

behind Banana Phone and Baby Beluga

24:04

has a new album out. It's

24:06

called Penny Penguin. Before we get

24:08

back into it, here's another track off that album.

24:11

This is The Birdies Sing. The

24:31

Birdies sing the sweetest songs.

24:43

I want to talk a little bit

24:45

about your activism, which is what you

24:47

spent most

24:49

of the last 10 or 12

24:51

years doing. You have

24:54

a foundation called The Center for

24:56

Child Honoring, and you've

24:58

just published a book called Light

25:00

Web Dark Web, Three Reasons to

25:02

Reform Social Media Before It Reforms

25:04

Us. I think

25:07

for a lot of people with small kids, especially

25:11

small kids, they're trying to figure

25:13

out what the

25:16

internet and particularly social

25:20

media mean for them

25:22

and for their kids and for

25:25

the way they raise their kids.

25:27

Your book is a really lovely

25:30

introduction to some of the ideas

25:33

that are floating out

25:35

there and some of the issues

25:37

that are brought up. Before

25:42

we get into the dark web,

25:44

let's start with the light web.

25:47

What's the good news about the

25:51

internet for us and our kids?

25:54

By the light web, I mean all the things about the

25:56

internet that we enjoy, the ability to connect with each other,

25:58

and the ability to connect with each other. very

26:02

quickly and easily through

26:05

a laptop or other

26:07

computing device, whether

26:10

it's email, text, audio,

26:13

video clips. I mean, there's just so

26:15

many ways to connect with each other,

26:18

share what matters, learn

26:20

about the world, the global storehouse of

26:22

information, and so on. All of that is

26:26

what I refer to as the light web, the

26:29

things that we enjoy about the internet. Personally,

26:31

Raffi, what do you like to do most

26:33

on the internet? What

26:35

do I like to do most? Yeah. Well,

26:39

I'm like anybody else. I'm surfing

26:41

the web sometimes for information. Sometimes

26:44

I'm emailing, sometimes

26:46

texting, and I also enjoy

26:49

Twitter. I also

26:51

like recording, digital recording.

26:54

That's how I made my most recent

26:57

CD, Love Bug. 80% of

26:59

it was recorded in my living room. Yeah, so

27:01

there are many attributes to the light web I enjoy. What's

27:05

the dark web? The dark web is

27:07

a term I use for what we find

27:12

not so good about the internet, all the

27:14

perils of being online, whether

27:16

it's identity theft or privacy

27:19

loss, whether it's how

27:22

unsafe it still is

27:27

for young people to use the internet. The

27:31

location of users is

27:33

so easily deciphered by

27:37

bad people unless users disable

27:40

their location features. There are a number of

27:42

things I outline in my book. What

27:45

I say in my book is that we

27:47

want the internet to be a force

27:50

for good, all of us.

27:52

I mean, there's nobody in their right mind

27:54

that wants it to be a force

27:57

for darkness. Place

28:00

where you can shine your light brightly. This

28:04

little light of mine i'm gonna let it

28:06

shine the song goes well we should do

28:08

that online as well but how do we

28:10

create a culture of respect online. What

28:14

i say is. Any

28:18

technological revolution that sweeps the world should

28:20

be at least safe. For

28:24

users should. Build

28:27

societal intelligence and

28:29

it should be sustainable and

28:31

if you really examine info tech

28:33

by those three criteria it

28:36

has yet to meet the test of

28:39

safety intelligence and sustainability

28:42

we're hearing from many many quarters that

28:44

young kids. Are

28:47

becoming dependent on their devices

28:49

and even addicted to the.

28:53

To info tech and this is not the

28:55

way you grow societal intelligence all

28:58

the psychotherapists of any value.

29:01

All the child development professionals the pediatricians

29:04

in canada and the united states have

29:06

all said that in the first two

29:08

years of life you

29:10

want no screens ideally.

29:13

And then after that very sparingly do

29:16

you want screen time for kids why

29:19

because they need to learn about the real

29:21

world the three dimensional world

29:23

of marvels. Of

29:25

the elements of water and sand

29:28

and mud rain puddles

29:30

and honey bees

29:32

and all the good things of

29:35

which there are so many the marvel that whether

29:37

it's the texture of. You

29:41

know when you when you're putting a baby

29:45

sheep lamb or

29:47

all the marvel marvels of

29:50

growing a plant you know

29:52

putting a seed in soil and watching it

29:55

grow these are all the things that you

29:57

do in the real world and.

30:00

At the same time, the young child

30:02

learns best through active play

30:05

in movement and

30:07

interaction with real people, the

30:10

caregivers and friends and family

30:12

who love them. That's how

30:15

a young being in the formative years

30:18

learns what it's like to

30:20

be a human being because what's

30:22

forming in those early years is nothing less

30:25

than how it feels to be human. You

30:27

know, I'm in my 30s

30:30

now and I'm

30:32

a heavy social media

30:34

user and even

30:37

as a 30-something year

30:40

old guy who's been using

30:42

the internet for 20-something of

30:44

those years, I

30:47

still sometimes feel like social media use

30:51

is driving the me train rather than me

30:53

driving the social media train. That

30:55

was a terrible metaphor but I think you get what

30:57

I'm driving at here. I

31:01

think what you're saying is, you know, the

31:03

ideal is that we use the technology and it

31:05

doesn't use us. And you write

31:07

in your book about how,

31:09

you know, these are technologies that are very

31:12

new and are generally

31:14

not designed for children.

31:16

They're designed for adults who, you

31:19

know, who can respond to them with an

31:22

adult set of tools. And I

31:24

find that even as an adult with an adult set

31:26

of tools, sometimes I am challenged to respond to them

31:28

in a way that's useful for

31:30

me. I mean, I think overall I do

31:32

but sometimes it's hard for me. And

31:37

it seems like one of the things that you're

31:39

arguing for is trying to figure out ways that

31:45

there is an expectation that

31:48

the basic values

31:50

of, you know, in

31:52

some ways the internet was founded

31:57

on of community and

31:59

respect. be baked in

32:02

rather than added later as

32:04

an afterthought once the profit model is

32:06

figured out. Yeah,

32:10

I think the internet does require

32:13

regulation to make it the

32:15

technology that it can be. I

32:18

know many people disagree with that, but my

32:22

view is that the

32:26

virtual world needs

32:29

respectful behavior. And I

32:31

don't know how we're going to get that unless we regulate

32:34

some aspects of it. Because

32:38

in the real world, for example, you

32:40

can't hide behind anonymity and hurl insults

32:42

of people. You can't do that. You

32:45

know, and yet you can do that online. And

32:49

in the real world, you can't threaten people.

32:52

You can't jeopardize

32:55

young people's lives at

32:58

will. Again, hiding behind

33:00

anonymity. You can do that online. That doesn't

33:02

seem smart to me. So

33:07

there are all kinds of things like this I look at in the

33:09

book. Again,

33:12

from the perspectives of safety

33:14

and intelligence, and

33:16

also the often

33:19

left out topic,

33:23

the ecology of infotech and

33:26

its sustainability. That's an important one as well. So

33:30

that's why parents and teachers tell me that

33:32

Light Web, Dark Web, that book I wrote

33:35

last year is an eye-opener for them. Tell

33:39

me about how you've

33:42

decided to run your

33:44

business. What's

33:46

the difference between

33:49

your record company that

33:51

releases your records and always has and,

33:54

you know, whatever? Interscope

34:01

records. Well, I can't

34:03

speak about other businesses, but I can say that

34:05

my company Troubadour

34:07

Music is

34:10

run along triple bottom line values. So it's

34:13

not just about the money, it's

34:18

about the social and environmental impacts

34:21

of doing business. So we

34:23

have a triple bottom line, you might say. I was

34:26

never in this for the money anyway. I mean, I

34:28

started as a folk singer to make good

34:30

music and decided to record on my own label just so that I

34:32

could have

34:35

artistic freedom and help shape my art the way I wanted it.

34:38

I've stayed true to those principles

34:45

over the years. And rather than recording, I've been able to record my art

34:55

to some exterior timetable.

34:57

I just go

34:59

with what I feel is worth doing at a given

35:01

time. I

35:04

go with what I feel on the inside. That's

35:07

how it's always been. I

35:10

want to play a little bit of you

35:12

performing a song called Turn This World Around.

35:14

This is

35:16

you performing it in Toronto at

35:19

Ryerson University. Nelson

35:21

Mandela is there. I wonder if

35:24

you can tell me first what led you to write

35:26

this song. In

35:28

the year 2000, Nelson Mandela made

35:30

a speech in which he said it's not enough

35:33

for world leaders to spout empty

35:35

rhetoric. He said what we

35:37

need to do is to turn this world around

35:39

for the children. And I was

35:41

so taken with those words that I

35:44

wrote and recorded the song Turn This World

35:46

Around. Let's hear a bit of

35:49

it. For

35:54

the children, turn

35:56

this world around. And

36:02

now we hear it call for the

36:05

children to turn this world

36:07

around. Turn,

36:11

turn, turn, turn

36:14

this world around for the children.

36:18

Turn this world around. Turn,

36:23

turn, turn, turn this

36:25

world around for the

36:28

children. Turn this world

36:30

around. My

37:29

life and my family's life and you

37:31

know I know I'm not the only one. Raffi

37:38

from 2014 speaking to us via

37:40

banana phone. If you're on the

37:43

East Coast or up in Canada, Raffi is probably

37:45

touring near you. We'll have a link to dates

37:47

on the bullseye page at maximumfund.org. I'll

37:50

tell you what, after we did this interview, I

37:52

took my kids to see Raffi. They

37:55

were very young at the time. We

37:58

just had a great time. What a special experience

38:00

it is. That's

38:15

the end of another episode of All Time Pulse. I

38:17

created from the holds of me and the staff of

38:19

Vaxmo Fund in and around greater Los Angeles,

38:21

California. Here at my

38:24

house, just had a visit from the shutter guy.

38:26

It turns out it's kind of hard to get

38:28

shutters that operate. Everybody's

38:30

shutters are just these shutters that you like staple

38:32

to the side of your house. It's very weird.

38:35

The show is produced by Speaking Into Microphones.

38:37

Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producers

38:39

are Jesus Amrosio and Richard Roby. Our production

38:42

fellow at Vaxmo Fund is Daniel Buesias. We

38:45

get booking help from Mera Davis. Our

38:47

interstitial music is by DJW, Dan Wale.

38:50

Our theme song is called Huddle Formation, written

38:52

and recorded by the Go team thanks

38:54

to them and Memphis Industries. They're labeled

38:56

for providing it. Bullseye is

38:58

on Instagram at bullseye with Jesse

39:00

Thorne. I am on Instagram at

39:03

Jesse Thorne, very famous. We

39:05

also share our shows on Twitter, YouTube,

39:07

and Facebook. So go smash

39:09

that subscribe button on YouTube. Share

39:12

an interview there with

39:14

someone that you think might enjoy it. That's about

39:16

it. Just remember, all great radio hosts

39:19

have a signature sign. Bullseye

39:21

with Jesse Thorne is a

39:24

production of maximumfund.org and is

39:26

distributed by NPR. This

39:47

message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta

39:50

Stone, an expert in language learning for 30

39:52

years. Right now,

39:54

NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's

39:56

lifetime membership to 25 different languages

39:58

for 50% off. Learn

40:01

more at rosettastone.com. Across

40:05

America, history is often recorded on

40:07

small markers. You've probably seen them

40:09

on the sides of roads, in

40:11

front of buildings, in the middle

40:14

of nowhere. NPR's Laura

40:16

Sullivan spent a year investigating thousands

40:18

of markers and found a distorted

40:20

version of America's history but also

40:22

curiosities, humor and joy. Listen to

40:25

the new episode of the Sunday

40:27

Story on the Up First podcast

40:29

from NPR.