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0:17

I'm Jesse Thorne. It's bullseye. Paul

0:20

Rubens died last week. He

0:23

had an incredible life and an amazing

0:25

career. He was on the Gong

0:27

Show literally dozens of times.

0:29

He was a legend in the comedy troupe The Groundlings.

0:32

He

0:32

was a gifted actor. But if

0:35

you know Paul Rubens, it's probably

0:38

because you know his greatest creation,

0:41

Pee-wee Herman. Paging Mr.

0:43

Herman. Mr. Herman,

0:46

you have a telephone call at the front

0:48

desk. From

0:54

MaximumFun.org and NPR,

0:57

it's Bullseye.

1:00

This week, from the archives,

1:02

my conversation with

1:04

Paul Rubens.

1:05

Plus, Pee-wee Herman's conversation

1:08

with his close personal friend, Charo.

1:11

That's all coming up on Bullseye. It's

1:17

Bullseye. I'm

1:18

Jesse Thorne. So

1:22

right up top, I just want to say this. Pee-wee

1:27

Herman was everything to me. I

1:31

grew up with divorced parents. They

1:34

split custody almost exactly

1:36

50-50, except

1:38

that every Friday night, I was with my mom. And

1:41

so that meant every Saturday morning, I

1:43

was with her too.

1:45

And every Saturday

1:47

morning, I got up, turned on the TV, and

1:51

I watched a movie. And

1:54

I turned on the TV, and

1:56

like almost every other kid, I

1:59

watched the cartoons.

1:59

And for the most part, Saturday

2:03

morning cartoons in the late

2:05

1980s, we're not talking about art. We're

2:07

talking about US acres,

2:10

which I think was a farm where

2:12

a talking egg lived. Honestly,

2:15

that's about all I remember about US

2:17

acres. While I was

2:19

watching TV, my mom would be in another

2:21

room, reading or

2:23

weaving. The Saturday morning

2:26

study, it meant nothing to her. It's not that she was

2:28

above it, it just didn't

2:30

mean anything to her. And

2:32

so she'd do her own thing until

2:35

P.O.E.'s playhouse came on. And

2:38

then she'd come in and she'd sit with me. And

2:41

when somebody on the show said the secret word,

2:44

she'd scream real loud. We

2:46

both would, that was for us, that was our thing.

2:51

Those other shows that I watched on Saturday morning,

2:53

some of them were awful, some of them were fine.

2:57

Probably there were a few that were even kind

2:59

of good. I mean, maybe Muppet Babies?

3:02

I can't remember. But

3:06

the playhouse was

3:08

special. Look,

3:11

it's easy to say that Paul Rubens

3:13

built a world around P.E. Herman

3:15

because I mean, he literally did. It's

3:18

pretty close to a one set show.

3:22

Paul Rubens and his friends built it

3:24

in a warehouse in New York City. But

3:27

you know, other shows have

3:29

their own world. Captain Kangaroo

3:31

had its own world. Sesame Street has

3:33

its own world. Denver the Last Dinosaur

3:36

had its own world. But I mean, really

3:39

seriously, have you seen P.O.E.'s playhouse?

3:42

I mean, right now I'm on Wikipedia.

3:45

I'm looking at the Saturday morning TV lineup

3:47

from 1990. And

3:49

it's the Smurfs and

3:52

Karate Kid, the cartoon show, and

3:55

something called Captain N, the

3:58

Game Master.

4:00

No disrespect to Alf Tales

4:03

or Alf the Animated Series, which

4:05

apparently were two different shows. But

4:08

Pee-Wee Herman

4:09

was the one who fell from space. When

4:13

Pee-Wee landed on HBO, he was trying

4:15

to look up Miss Yvonne's skirt with a mirror

4:17

on his shoe. It was weird.

4:19

And by the time he made it to CBS on

4:21

Saturday mornings, he

4:24

was almost exactly

4:26

the same, completely out of control.

4:30

Let me put it this way. My friend's mom told him

4:33

that he was not allowed to watch Pee-Wee, and

4:35

this is a quote from her, because

4:37

it was too weird.

4:40

And you know what? I

4:42

get it. More than anything

4:45

else I have ever seen, Pee-Wee

4:48

Herman expressed the extraordinary

4:52

possibilities of childhood, the absolute

4:54

madness of childhood joy,

4:57

the monstrous feelings, the

4:59

capricious cruelty, the yelling.

5:04

What I remember from my childhood

5:06

is identifying with Pee-Wee, laughing

5:09

with Pee-Wee, sharing secrets

5:11

with him, making parfaits.

5:16

But being terrified of Pee-Wee, too. Pee-Wee

5:19

is weird. He's a jerk.

5:22

He's your friend. He's mad. He's

5:24

malicious. He's sweet. He's lonely

5:27

and sad and angry and

5:29

thrilling and delightful. He's

5:32

everything all at once. Or

5:35

at least

5:37

in distressingly quick succession.

5:41

Wherever Pee-Wee was, there

5:43

was a wild rumpus. And

5:46

there I was with him,

5:48

me and my mom.

5:50

Of course, now I'm grown up. I'm

5:53

a parent. Now I can

5:55

read the tapestry of camp and

5:58

irony and satire and sensation.

5:59

that I could only sort

6:02

of feel as a kid. But

6:07

those texts that

6:09

Pee Wee made, they're no less vivid to

6:11

me now. I

6:13

watched Big Top Pee Wee the other day. Hadn't

6:16

seen it since I was a kid. And

6:18

honestly, I was worried it would be no

6:21

good with me as a

6:23

grownup. That it might lose

6:25

some of the sheen that it had gained in

6:28

my memory.

6:30

But nope, it rules.

6:32

I mean, put on Pee Wee's Big Adventure right now.

6:34

I have seen it a hundred times,

6:36

and on viewing 101, I will laugh

6:39

out loud a bunch of times. Besides

6:45

just being great, how did Pee Wee

6:47

shape me? I

6:50

think it's something about his shamelessness.

6:55

Not just giving permission

6:57

to be weird, or even encouragement.

7:00

Not just the feeling that you could make

7:02

your own way or be different,

7:06

but the feeling that you should just make

7:08

your own world, your own

7:11

crazy world, no permission, no hesitation,

7:13

just run through the glass. That

7:16

the greatest feeling in the world was

7:18

raw, scary joy.

7:24

I was in this recording studio when

7:27

my friend Julia texted me.

7:29

She used to be the producer of this show.

7:33

She said, Paul Rubens, the creator of

7:35

Pee Wee Herman, had died of

7:37

cancer. So

7:42

this show is a tribute to him.

7:45

Actually, everything

7:47

I've done in my career is a tribute to him, but

7:51

this hour of bullseye is, in particular.

7:54

Later on, we'll hear a bit

7:57

of a Pee Wee Herman radio show that Julia

7:59

and I... produced with Paul a few years ago.

8:02

It turned out to be the last time he ever performed the

8:04

character. But first, an

8:07

interview with Paul Rubens from our archives.

8:19

Paul, welcome to Bullseye. It's so great to have

8:21

you on the show. Oh, thank you so much.

8:24

You spent your teenage years in

8:27

Sarasota, Florida, which, besides

8:30

being like a, you know, a nice,

8:34

you know, retirement community type place is

8:36

also the off-season

8:39

home of Wrinkling Brothers.

8:43

It was at the time I lived there.

8:45

Yes. So was

8:47

that like part of your life

8:50

as a kid and as a teenager that there

8:52

was just circus stuff around?

8:56

Yeah, there was, there was circus stuff

8:59

everywhere. There was circus stuff. Um,

9:02

my high school had a circus. I

9:04

think it's the only high school in the world with

9:07

a full circus program. And,

9:10

uh,

9:10

kids that you would have classes

9:13

with, you know, for all year long,

9:15

that you wouldn't have any

9:17

idea that they would be

9:19

these circus stars. And then you'd go to

9:21

the sailor circus. That's the name of the

9:24

Sarasota high school circus, the sailor

9:26

circus. And, uh, you'd go

9:28

to the circus and see like a girl that sat

9:30

in front of you or a guy who

9:33

sat off to the side and they'd, they'd be

9:35

wearing tights and they'd, they'd climb

9:37

a web and, uh, and do a

9:39

full on flying act or walk a tight

9:41

rope. It was absolutely incredible.

9:44

And, uh, when we first moved

9:46

to Florida, there were circus people everywhere.

9:49

We were walking

9:49

around our block and

9:52

the house we rented when we first moved there.

9:54

And we for weeks had been hearing these explosions

9:57

all day long and never what

10:00

they were and we walked by. My

10:02

whole family was walking around the block

10:04

one day and we heard the explosion and we saw

10:07

a man shooting

10:09

through the sky in between two

10:11

houses. And we were

10:14

later to find out it was the

10:16

Zakhini family and they were shooting

10:19

each other out of cannons in the backyard.

10:21

We had heard that for a couple

10:23

of months and didn't know what it was. My

10:26

sister and I, our first Halloween, rang

10:28

a doorbell and it was the doll

10:29

family from the circus,

10:32

a whole family of little people. And

10:36

they said, come in, come in. And we went in

10:38

their house and everything in their house was

10:40

miniature and tiny. And it was

10:43

a weird thing to see as a kid. I'd never

10:46

seen a little person before. I didn't even know.

10:48

I knew it was somebody

10:49

who was the same size as

10:52

me, but they were old. It

10:54

was a, you could walk down the street

10:56

or go into a market in Sarasota

10:58

and go regular person,

11:00

regular person, circus, regular

11:02

person, circus. You could just tell,

11:05

you know? And so it was an incredibly

11:07

exciting place at

11:10

the time and a cool place to grow up.

11:12

You

11:12

know, for a lot of folks that I talked to

11:15

for this show, one

11:17

of the big challenges of their childhood

11:20

was finding, you

11:23

know, there was some turning point where they

11:26

realized that becoming

11:28

an artist or an entertainer

11:31

was a real thing that real

11:34

human beings did. And

11:37

I imagine that growing up in

11:40

a place where, you know, there

11:42

was a, there was a shot

11:45

out of Cannon's family down the block sort

11:48

of blows that up. I mean, it's, it's

11:51

just sort of expected that entertaining

11:53

is a thing that regular human beings get

11:56

involved in, even if it's something as weird

11:58

as that.

11:59

Kind of. I never thought of

12:02

it like that. I always thought of it more

12:04

like there were, I mean,

12:06

there did seem to be a distinction between

12:09

people who didn't perform. You

12:11

know, the circus people, you could tell who they

12:13

were, but all the rest of

12:15

the people weren't performers, so it didn't really,

12:18

it didn't seem like that to me. It didn't

12:20

occur to me the

12:22

way you just put it. I knew I wanted

12:24

to be an actor from before we moved to Florida.

12:28

And it was mostly from watching a couple

12:31

of kid actors that I was obsessed,

12:34

obsessively jealous of, and

12:38

watching children's

12:40

TV, and I Love Lucy. For some reason,

12:43

Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball were like,

12:45

yeah, that's what I want to do. What kid actors

12:48

were you obsessively jealous of? Moochie,

12:55

who was also known as Kevin Corcoran,

12:58

who was one of the big Disney stars. He

13:00

was Toby Tyler, and he co-starred

13:04

with Haley Mills in

13:07

Pollyanna, and he was in Swiss Family. Robert,

13:09

I mean, you know, he was the big boy

13:13

star of my youth

13:16

of Disney. And then Ron Howard

13:19

was the other big one. The two of them just, I

13:22

would watch those shows or those movies,

13:24

and I would just be thinking, yeah, I could do, you know,

13:27

I'm just as good as that. I could be as good as that.

13:30

I even wrote Walt Disney a letter when

13:32

I was a kid and said,

13:34

you know, I'm just as good, if not better,

13:36

than your current

13:38

kid star, Kevin Corcoran. And

13:41

waited by the mailbox for a response,

13:43

which never came. It's funny because one of the storylines

13:46

in Pee Wee's Big Adventure is Pee Wee

13:49

essentially stealing

13:53

the spotlight from a kid actor

13:55

on the movie lot.

13:59

Yeah. I'm

14:03

not sure what you mean. Oh,

14:06

I just wondered if that ended

14:08

up in the film partly because of that childhood

14:10

dream of

14:14

taking someone's place

14:16

in the Swiss family Robinson.

14:19

You know what? If we got

14:21

into that, I might have to lay down to tell

14:23

you the rest of this stuff. You

14:27

trained in the groundlings in the

14:29

70s. And while

14:31

you were training, one

14:34

of the first big things that you did in show business

14:36

was go on the Gong Show.

14:38

And not just go on the Gong Show once, but go on the

14:40

Gong Show a whole bunch of times.

14:43

What was the first act that you brought to

14:45

the Gong Show? Do you remember? Oh, absolutely.

14:48

I was on the Gong Show, I think, 15 times.

14:50

And you

14:53

could

14:54

go on the Gong Show more

14:57

than once if you were in a disguise.

14:59

It was a game show, and

15:02

it wasn't rigged or anything, but they did

15:04

allow some people. There was sort

15:06

of a small stable of comedian

15:09

people

15:09

who... I mean, I

15:12

partially was supported by Chuck Barris in the Gong

15:14

Show for a couple of years. And

15:17

the first...

15:18

I'd gone to Boston University for a year

15:20

before I went to California

15:23

Institute of the Arts. A few

15:25

of the people from Boston University

15:27

I kept in touch with when I moved

15:29

to California. And then there was

15:31

kind of a trickle of those people. They

15:33

all moved to California. Most of

15:35

them, a lot of them... If

15:37

you're an actor and you get out of college, out of

15:39

acting school, you're pretty much moving

15:42

to New York or Los Angeles. So half the

15:45

people moved to Los Angeles and the other half

15:47

went to New York. And I got

15:50

a call from a girl that I knew

15:52

very well, one of my friends in

15:55

Boston. And she said

15:57

one of my best friends who came in the

15:59

year after...

15:59

after you just moved to California

16:02

and she wanted to get your number. So I

16:05

gave her my number and this girl called me

16:07

and she said, I just was on

16:09

the Gong show and

16:11

I joined the union and I

16:14

almost won. And

16:16

if I'd won, I would have made $500 and

16:19

it was, I think $238 to appear on the show, union

16:24

scale wage. And

16:26

she said, I wanna do another act. I

16:29

was thinking maybe we could do some kind of a duo

16:31

act. So her name was Charlotte

16:34

McGinnis and she and I

16:36

became a duo act called

16:38

Betty and Eddie.

16:40

And we wrote an act specifically

16:42

for the Gong show and we went on and we

16:44

did it and

16:46

we won. And I joined

16:50

AFTRA, the American Federation

16:53

of Television and Radio Artists.

16:55

And that allowed me a year later

16:58

to join the Screen Actors Guild. It

17:00

was a way in on something

17:03

that was very difficult to do. A lot of

17:05

people didn't have those opportunities and

17:09

I made money, we won

17:11

money and then I got all kinds of

17:14

booby prizes. There were all kinds of

17:17

things that they would send you. And when the shows

17:19

would rerun, they would send

17:21

you a residual check and

17:24

another prize.

17:25

So I would once

17:27

in a while, I'd get like, one time I got a

17:30

shrimp, I got a, what

17:32

was it?

17:33

It was some kind of cooker that came

17:35

with a certificate for shrimp burgers.

17:38

And I got a bowling ball,

17:41

the groundlings green room, which

17:45

didn't exist at a certain point. But

17:49

one day we decided we were gonna have a green room and we

17:51

cleared a bunch of space backstage

17:53

to make it. And then I had

17:56

two giant containers of green

17:58

textured paint that I made.

17:59

won on the Gong Show. And

18:02

for many years, the green room in the

18:05

Groundlings was courtesy of the Gong Show. I

18:08

want to play a clip of you on

18:10

the Gong Show. And this

18:12

is you in a doubles act with John

18:15

Paragon, who ended up becoming one of your

18:17

collaborators on the Pee Wee Herman Show and on

18:20

Pee Wee's Playhouse. He played Jomby

18:23

and also Terry. And I think co-wrote

18:25

the Pee Wee Herman Show with you if I'm remembering

18:27

correctly. And this doubles act is called

18:30

Suave and Debonair. Let's take a listen.

18:34

All right. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here we go.

18:36

Let us welcome, please, Suave

18:39

and Debonair. Do it. We'll

18:44

put our coats across a bottle so you

18:46

can cross it. We'll cut our hair for you

18:48

to look

19:00

like they're about it. We

19:03

can make you laugh just like a hyena.

19:06

We'll cook our own

19:08

caviar right down at the marina.

19:12

Well, the kind of guys you'd like

19:14

to take home to your mother.

19:17

When you try one of us, you'll

19:19

have to try the other. Watch the

19:21

chose. We'll give you the top

19:24

billing. I'll tell you what's

19:26

really interesting to

19:28

me about the relationship

19:49

between Pee Wee

19:52

Herman and Pee Wee's Playhouse and the

19:55

Gong Show and some of the stuff that you did on the Gong

19:57

Show. It's that it's

19:59

this. kind of 50s and

20:02

60s culture that,

20:06

you know, in the 70s and 80s was often being sent

20:10

up and what

20:12

you're doing there and what you did with Pee-Wee's

20:14

Playhouse. Is it really a send

20:16

up? It's, it's

20:19

more like a, what, what if we did that

20:21

thing that was so, so straight

20:24

in its time and just

20:27

bent it around the corner a little bit, like

20:30

made it a tribute,

20:32

but a really weird tribute.

20:35

I mean, I wonder if that was your intent or something that you were

20:37

aware of. No, you know

20:39

what? I, I was with you

20:41

right up until the very, very last thing you

20:44

said. Like I, I never like,

20:47

I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't try to

20:49

like get into a debate with you about whether it's weird

20:51

or not. Like I've certainly heard the word

20:53

weird applied to both the show and

20:56

me and lots of other

20:58

uses of that, but I, I never

21:01

look at it like that. I never, we

21:03

never tried to be, you know, a kid show, but,

21:05

but weird, you know, it just,

21:10

it's funny, I was just talking to some people who

21:13

have a lounge, a fake lounge act

21:15

and they were saying, you know, we're, we're starting

21:17

to become what we parried, parodied,

21:20

and I, I had

21:23

just seen their act and I didn't feel like that at all.

21:25

I, I feel like it's really about

21:27

the commitment, you know, like I always feel like I,

21:30

my commitment to Pee-Wee Herman,

21:33

I don't mean that the way it came out. I mean,

21:35

the way that

21:37

the concentration and the commitment required

21:40

to be that character and to sort of stay in that

21:42

character

21:44

just makes it real to me.

21:47

I guess I do agree it was an homage

21:49

in many ways. I mean, I, I loved all these,

21:52

all these kid shows that influenced me and

21:55

I tried to sort of mix

21:57

ingredients from all of them into.

22:00

what I wound up doing so it's kind of a

22:02

throwback and it has lots of homage

22:05

sort of elements to it, but I always

22:08

considered it a full-on real

22:10

kids show Even though it had all

22:12

this innuendo and adult humor in

22:14

it. We did the same show in

22:16

matinees for kids so

22:18

I always felt like I took

22:22

a lot of pride in being able to kind of figure out

22:24

ways to do stuff that could be seen

22:26

by kids and grown-ups and

22:30

Two different audiences might might

22:32

pull two different things out of it, but

22:34

but it could be seen by the same group

22:37

I think it makes perfect sense. I mean it seems like

22:40

in order to be arch or to parody

22:43

you have to have a certain amount of Remove

22:47

from what you're doing and it sounds

22:49

like you wanted pee wee to something

22:51

that to be something that you could invest your whole

22:54

You know your whole heart into

22:56

Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that cuz

22:59

I I was The hair on

23:01

the back of my neck just stood up when you said that

23:03

a little bit although it's very short

23:06

Was just because I I don't yeah, I

23:08

never viewed it like that I always viewed

23:10

it as I you know

23:13

I'm I'm just in it in the

23:15

moment and I love what I'm doing. So

23:17

I don't know I don't know. It's hard

23:19

to describe it. I'm realizing

23:22

We've got to go to a quick break when we come back

23:24

we'll continue our tribute to the late Paul

23:27

Rubens It's bullseye

23:29

from maximum fun org and NPR

23:31

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23:50

You there have you considered listening to the beef and

23:52

dairy network an award-winning comedy show in the

23:54

form of a newsletter Podcast for the beef and dairy industries.

23:57

Well, maybe you should and why don't you try our most

23:59

recent?

23:59

episode, episode 99, which features American

24:02

man Paul F. Tompkins playing Queen Elizabeth

24:04

II's former personal beef sommelier. Her

24:07

Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and I laying

24:09

on the floor of her bedroom,

24:13

just helplessly laughing till

24:15

tears run down our faces as corgis are jumping

24:18

on us, over us, licking us. That

24:21

is a day that I will treasure forever

24:23

until I am executed. Find the show at

24:25

MaximumFun.org. I hope there's

24:27

beef in heaven.

24:33

Welcome back to Bullseye. I'm Jesse

24:35

Thorne. We're paying tribute to Paul

24:37

Rubens. He was the creator and star

24:39

of Pee-wee's Playhouse, Pee-wee's Big

24:41

Adventure,

24:42

and a monumental influence

24:45

to countless artists, creators, and

24:47

comedians. Paul Rubens died

24:49

July 31st of this year. He was 70 years

24:52

old. In 2014, I

24:55

was lucky enough to get to talk to Rubens about his

24:57

life and about the development of Pee-wee

24:59

Herman. Let's get back into the rest of our conversation.

25:03

I want to play a clip from the Pee-wee

25:05

Herman show. This is from the film version that ended

25:07

up on

25:08

Homebox Office. Yeah,

25:10

it was a film version of the show that you

25:12

had done in various theaters in LA. In

25:15

this scene, a character named

25:18

Mailman Mike has given

25:20

you as Pee-wee a package to bring to Jambi.

25:23

And Jambi, for those folks

25:26

who don't remember, by way of explanation

25:29

is a floating head

25:31

inside of a box, which

25:34

is important to the scene. And

25:36

also to know he's a genie. Yeah. Jambi's

25:40

hands finally got here. Hands?

25:44

Did somebody say hands? Sure did, Jambi.

25:47

Well, hand them over. Oh

25:50

gee Pee-wee, I'm a little late for my break. Would you mind delivering

25:52

these for me? Would I? Would I?

25:54

Hair lift, hair

25:56

lift. Hey,

26:00

Johnny, enjoy those hands, buddy. Hey, thanks, Blondie.

26:02

Bye, Millman Mike. Hey, look, Johnny, here's

26:04

your hands. I better open them for you, because

26:07

you don't have them yet. Right. Hey,

26:12

cool. Caucasian.

26:16

I'm sure if they worked through, the picture in the catalog was

26:18

so small.

26:19

Well, check them out, Johnny. Yeah, I will.

26:22

I've had something I've wanted to do for a long time.

26:27

Um, when did you, when

26:30

did you decide that Pee

26:32

Wee, the character, would live

26:35

outside of the world of the performances,

26:38

and that Paul Rubens, the

26:40

actor,

26:42

would become, you know, pretty

26:44

much invisible?

26:48

Kind of right

26:50

around the time I really started to focus

26:53

on Pee Wee,

26:56

I think was when that happened.

26:58

I

27:02

don't have a really strong recollection to the answer,

27:05

but I'm going to guess that that happened

27:08

around the time I did not

27:10

get on Saturday Night Live.

27:13

And I panicked, because

27:15

I, at that point, was sort of getting

27:18

written about and treated as an

27:21

up and comer. You know, I was in like

27:23

little blurbs of, you

27:26

know, a little box in the lower

27:28

right-hand corner of a magazine page

27:30

or something, you know, an up and comer person or

27:32

a spotlight on or somebody to keep your

27:35

eye

27:35

on. And

27:38

then I was kind of a shoe-in,

27:40

according to some people, to be on

27:42

the first season of SNL that

27:45

was an all-new cast. And

27:47

the only season Lauren Michaels was not

27:49

involved in. It was the

27:52

season of Joe Piscopo and Eddie Murphy.

27:54

And I was flown

27:56

to New York and there were 22 finalists.

27:59

I walked into the room. Prior to walking

28:02

in the room, people were pulling me aside and saying, you

28:04

should get an apartment. They never tell you until the

28:06

last minute. I

28:08

walked in the room and someone pulled me aside

28:10

of the room and said, that guy over there is

28:12

the producer's best friend. I

28:15

looked at the guy and it was Gilbert Godfrey.

28:17

I thought, there's no way

28:20

it's going to be me and Gilbert Godfrey. We're

28:22

the two nerd guys in this

28:24

room. It's me or him. I

28:27

just had this strong feeling I wasn't

28:29

going to get it. I got

28:31

on a plane and flew back to Los Angeles.

28:34

On the way to Los Angeles, I had

28:37

an epiphany and I just thought, I

28:40

better make something happen for myself

28:42

or I'm going to go directly from this up and comer

28:45

category to, hey,

28:48

remember me, the up and comer guy? That

28:52

never happened. I felt

28:54

like

28:56

I needed to take some kind of control

28:58

and I decided I was going to produce a stage

29:01

show and what I called

29:03

at the time a live pilot because

29:06

I didn't have any way at

29:08

all in the universe to get a pilot deal

29:10

to make a television pilot. I

29:13

had

29:15

a desire

29:17

to

29:18

work on television. I

29:22

landed in LAX and

29:24

got on a pay phone at the

29:26

curb and called my parents and borrowed $5,000 and

29:30

probably six or eight days later,

29:32

I had 15 or 20 people working

29:35

on

29:36

the beginning of the Pee Wee Herman show. Phil

29:38

Hartman and

29:39

I, Phil was one of my closest friends

29:41

in the groundlings and Phil

29:43

and I met and talked about

29:46

a kid show format

29:48

and him coming up with

29:51

a salty sea captain character.

29:53

I had had a

29:56

salty sea captain

29:59

local show.

29:59

Florida growing up

30:02

and I think that may have been the beginning of

30:04

where that character came from Captain Karl

30:06

and we probably

30:09

the second night of meeting

30:11

wrote a complete wrote the scene between

30:14

Pee Wee and Captain Karl

30:16

that

30:17

remained in through

30:20

the The

30:22

development of the Pee Wee Herman show and

30:24

then we wrote

30:26

the show I Imagine

30:29

that part of Appearing

30:32

in public and doing interviews and stuff

30:35

as Pee Wee was because it made

30:37

Pee Wee

30:39

You know

30:40

real and gave a kind of frisson

30:42

to Pee

30:43

Wee as a character You

30:46

asked me that a minute ago, and I didn't really answer

30:48

that you're asking me the same thing in a different

30:50

way I think which is

30:52

I I

30:54

Was very influenced by conceptual

30:57

and performance art And I always felt

30:59

like Pee Wee Herman had some

31:01

strong elements of that and what made it even

31:03

more interesting to me Is that no one knew that

31:05

except me I I always felt

31:08

like it was conceptual art, but No

31:11

one knew it because I went out of my way

31:13

to make people feel like Pee Wee was a real

31:15

person So when

31:17

you when you're talking about doing interviews

31:19

It was I don't know where I came up

31:22

with this or why I did it It was just something that

31:24

that just was a gut feeling I think That

31:27

Pee Wee Herman just worked way better as

31:30

a real person that if you were going

31:32

oh, that's an actor It was

31:34

very different than going wow that you know who

31:37

in the heck is that? I

31:40

One of my earliest things I did with Pee

31:42

Wee Herman is I went on a cattle call

31:45

audition for the dating game

31:51

How are you gonna make things tough for me well

31:53

for one thing I'm gonna wear a bodysuit

31:56

underneath my clothes I

31:58

Think that's probably

31:59

probably had something to do with

32:02

the idea of staying in character all the

32:04

time. Because to go out and go to an audition

32:07

and walk in with that suit and

32:10

bow tie and my hair slicked

32:12

back and white shoes and

32:15

talking that voice and they

32:17

said, sit down over here and please fill out this form.

32:19

And the form was a, what

32:21

are your hobbies, that kind of thing. And I

32:23

would write down, I

32:26

enjoy cleaning my room and going to the library

32:28

and all this nerdy dorky stuff

32:31

and I could just tell that

32:33

the people thought I was real and were

32:36

acting

32:38

one way to me but thinking something

32:40

else inside and I knew I was

32:42

going to get on the show before I got home.

32:44

Bachelor number two,

32:47

what's your best used line

32:50

for your come on to any girl in a bar? Hi

32:56

baby, you know I might

32:58

not be old enough to drink but you look

33:00

like you're old enough to drink. Boy, I'm running

33:02

away right now.

33:03

That

33:05

was a very powerful day on a lot of levels

33:08

because I realized

33:11

kind of

33:13

how powerful P.B. Herman could be

33:16

and conceptually I just

33:18

felt like that sort of cinched

33:21

me staying in character I think because

33:23

I spent a whole day doing it. Many

33:26

many years ago I got the dreaded

33:28

phone call that most

33:30

actors would not want to get which is, would

33:33

you like to be on the surreal life?

33:37

And I'm going to in full disclosure

33:40

tell you I got that phone call three years in

33:42

a row. And

33:44

I always said no immediately because to me it was

33:46

always kind of an acknowledgement of

33:49

somewhere you

33:50

were in your career that I didn't want to acknowledge.

33:54

But the third year that I got that call

33:56

I knew somehow part

33:59

of the cast and

33:59

had already been announced. And

34:02

I actually said to the producers of

34:04

the show, if you guys would let me do it as

34:07

Pee Wee Herman and stay

34:09

in character the entire time and

34:11

guarantee that my roommate would

34:13

be Jose Canseco, who

34:17

was already announced on the show, I'll

34:20

do it because I felt like I knew I

34:22

could really score big like that. I knew

34:24

I could be really funny. I knew I could

34:27

stay in character for six or eight

34:29

weeks, while the cameras were rolling.

34:32

And I knew if I was rooming with Jose Canseco,

34:34

there'd be some comedy. And

34:37

that was actually, they said no.

34:39

And so I never did it, but that was the very

34:42

beginning of me thinking about a reality

34:44

show with Pee Wee Herman, which I almost did a couple

34:47

of years ago. And I

34:49

still love that idea because we have

34:51

so much reality television now that

34:54

to do a reality television show starring

34:57

a character that's not real seems

34:59

very interesting because

35:02

over the years, Pee Wee Herman's become

35:04

real in a kind

35:07

of unreal way. And

35:11

there were two incidents

35:13

that shaped what I'm talking about. One is what I just

35:15

told you about the surreal life. And the other is

35:17

four years ago when I went to

35:19

New York to do my show

35:22

on Broadway, I did a

35:24

full day of

35:26

running around New York in my

35:28

Pee Wee outfit on

35:31

Foursquare,

35:32

which anyone who isn't

35:34

familiar with Foursquare is a

35:38

social media platform where you,

35:41

it's similar to Facebook and Twitter,

35:43

you check in and you can

35:45

see if you go into a restaurant, you can see who else

35:48

is there and know things about people.

35:50

And I went all

35:52

over, I went to 40 locations all over

35:54

Manhattan from Spanish

35:57

Harlem, I rode on the subway.

36:00

I was downtown, I played basketball

36:02

on the Lower West Side. I was everywhere

36:05

and I checked in and told people where

36:07

I was gonna be and people

36:09

met me there and followed me around

36:12

and everywhere I went in New York

36:14

City,

36:15

people were so not only

36:18

warm and supportive and interested

36:20

and nice, but everyone treated

36:23

me like I was really Pee Wee Herman. And

36:25

I was walking down the street up

36:27

in Harlem by the Apollo Theater,

36:30

not to name drop, and

36:33

a woman walked up to me on the sidewalk and went, Pee

36:35

Wee, baby, how are you doing? What

36:37

are you doing here, honey? And

36:40

I turned around, I heard people screaming

36:42

my name. I looked, I turned around from this woman and

36:44

there was, behind me was a construction

36:46

site and there were about 40 construction workers

36:49

on the third floor all screaming down at me.

36:53

I made friends on the subway. I

36:56

mean, everywhere I went, people were so

36:58

nice and told me such interesting things

37:01

and would say things to me like, B.B.,

37:03

this is my wife, she's an incredible Italian

37:05

cook. Would you ever consider coming over for

37:08

dinner to our house? And

37:10

I kept thinking, and

37:12

I had a camera crew with me all day and I kept

37:14

thinking, boy, this is great footage we're

37:16

getting of people. And I started to think,

37:19

you know, if I took a camera

37:20

crew and accepted some of these invitations

37:23

I get, like go to dinner, go

37:26

to this wedding, go to my reunion, come

37:29

visit us out on this dude ranch, that

37:32

I had a reality series. And I

37:34

was very excited about it and then I couldn't

37:37

get anyone else to be as excited as I was, so

37:39

it didn't really happen.

37:41

I gotta tell you that, you know, I went

37:43

to see the Pee Wee Herman

37:45

show in Los Angeles

37:47

in 2010 or something. And

37:52

because I was among the group of people who had

37:54

bought tickets for it before

37:57

it was moved into a larger theater, you

37:59

were nice and cool. enough to come out. I know what you're

38:01

going to say. You were nice enough to come out

38:03

and do a Q&A after

38:05

the show.

38:07

And

38:12

watching that show, I

38:18

love the show and laughed and just had a great time.

38:21

And I also was moved

38:25

to tears by my

38:28

connection with this character. And

38:32

I get the impression that

38:37

when you sort of started to

38:39

take steps to bring Pee Wee

38:42

back into public and to come back into

38:44

the public eye yourself, you

38:46

know, about, I guess about 10

38:49

years ago now, maybe a little bit more

38:51

than that,

38:53

that maybe

38:55

you didn't already know about

39:00

how much that character changed people's

39:03

lives and how much it meant to people emotionally,

39:06

above and beyond just being something fun,

39:08

like, you know, whatever, Mr. T

39:11

or something like that.

39:14

Well, now

39:16

you're going to make me emotional. Yeah,

39:21

you're right. I didn't know that. So

39:23

that was a really interesting thing to

39:25

learn.

39:27

And you could have way worse problems

39:29

than that. That was

39:32

a really cool thing to find out.

39:34

It was something that people told me once in a while

39:37

back in the day, as we like to say now.

39:41

It was something I heard, you know, occasionally,

39:44

but I was so busy doing it all

39:46

in writing and that kind of stuff that

39:48

I did. I wasn't really out and about much. So

39:51

I never met kids. I never met

39:53

grownups, parents. I never got all

39:56

that feedback until way

39:59

later.

39:59

And you're right when I started

40:02

to just when I decided to Put

40:07

that suit back on

40:09

I did really start to

40:11

hear a lot of People

40:15

talking about this what you just said

40:17

and how it affected them and people

40:21

have talked to me about their relationship with their

40:23

parents and And

40:26

that's always that's been a really incredible

40:29

interesting very moving

40:32

Satisfying thing for me. I had

40:35

one kid one one guy came up

40:37

to me a couple years ago and said to me my

40:40

parents were divorced

40:43

and I Was with my father

40:46

on the weekends and the only thing we really

40:48

had in common the only time we ever Connected

40:51

at all and we connected

40:53

in a really big way once a week

40:55

was watching your show and talking about it afterwards

40:58

and That like

41:00

made me feel great I I

41:02

have to say what you're talking this subject is

41:04

uh, I don't know if you can hear my voice quivering

41:07

It does make me kind of emotional but in

41:09

a really great way, you know, I mean, it's it's

41:12

uh,

41:13

it's I Mean God how

41:15

lucky can somebody be to have have

41:17

that kind of? Effect

41:21

on on anybody, you know much less more

41:23

than one person and I'm

41:26

somebody when I do go places I quite

41:28

often have people come up to me and say

41:31

I'm an artist because of you or you

41:34

know something like

41:36

Staggering something that you know,

41:38

I I feel proud about

41:40

and and do and do feel emotional about

41:43

in a great way

41:44

I think one of the special things about Pee-wee

41:47

as a character, especially for

41:49

kids or for people who feel connected

41:51

to their childhoods is that

41:54

Pee-wee, you know pee-wee

41:57

is kind of a self-interested jerk a lot

41:59

of the time times. Click.

42:02

And he's also sort of an

42:04

open-hearted,

42:06

wonder-eyed dreamer

42:09

of the absolute best kind.

42:12

And that is kind of an essential quality

42:15

of childhood that rarely gets recognized

42:18

in children's entertainment. You know, if

42:20

you're lucky, you might get the wonder. I'm sorry to...

42:23

I have to interrupt you and just say one thing, because

42:25

I think you just clarified something

42:27

for me that's never been really clear

42:30

before, which people always go, what do

42:32

you think is the attraction of Pee-Wee Herman? Why

42:34

do people like Pee-Wee Herman? And

42:37

I always say I have no idea, which is true. And

42:40

I always go, I don't want to think

42:42

about that because it's not fun for me. That takes all

42:44

the fun out of what I do if I got to

42:46

sort of dissect it very much. And

42:49

in a kind way, I usually try to say

42:51

to a journalist, like, that's

42:54

your job, like, not my job. That

42:56

becomes my job, then I don't want

42:58

to do it anymore. I don't like picking it apart or

43:00

trying to figure it out. But I think you

43:02

just came up with something very interesting

43:04

that I never really thought about is

43:06

that I think most people have

43:09

the same qualities you just discussed.

43:11

Most people are dichotomies. Most people

43:14

are like really nice, good-hearted,

43:16

and

43:16

snarky at the same time, I think.

43:20

I think if we're really honest with ourselves

43:23

that we all have those capacities. You're

43:26

absolutely right, I can't argue at all that

43:28

Pee-Wee Herman has this wonderful heart

43:32

and is also like totally snarky

43:34

and selfish. And I

43:37

wouldn't disagree with you that

43:39

those are kid things

43:42

that we can attribute to kids.

43:45

But I would also certainly argue,

43:46

and I don't think you'd argue or anyone listening

43:49

would, probably

43:51

agree that

43:54

we don't really grow out of that

43:57

when we get older, when we become adults.

44:00

and even older adults, we still have

44:02

all that. I mean,

44:04

maybe I'm not a good example because I'm Pee

44:06

Wee Herman also, but I find

44:08

myself all the time as myself, as

44:12

my adult older self feeling

44:15

really righteous and great and

44:17

sweet. And then,

44:18

you know, on a dime, I'm

44:21

a nightmare and feel

44:24

snarky and angry and fed

44:26

up

44:27

with stuff. So I

44:29

think that that may

44:31

be what people like about

44:34

Pee Wee Herman is that that's sort of,

44:36

you know, worn on the sleeve.

44:38

Well, Paul, I don't wanna take up any

44:40

more of your time, but I'm so grateful that you

44:43

took the time to come on Bullseye. It was really great to get to talk

44:45

to you.

44:46

Oh, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate

44:48

it. And I appreciate everybody

44:50

listening to me drone on about myself

44:53

all this time. Well, I

44:55

appreciate the work that you've done.

44:57

I certainly wouldn't be the,

45:00

I certainly wouldn't be the person that I am today

45:03

if it weren't for your work. So I

45:06

thank you for that. Well,

45:08

I don't know you well enough to know if that's a compliment

45:10

or not, but I'm

45:12

gonna take it that way. Yeah, I mean like

45:14

a mixed bag at best, let's be honest.

45:21

My conversation with Paul Rubens from 2014,

45:25

I honestly could not believe it

45:28

when Julia Smith emailed me and

45:30

told me that after years and years and years

45:33

and years, I mean, at that point, 15, 12, 15 years of trying

45:37

that we had finally booked

45:40

Paul

45:40

Rubens, Pee Wee Herman. And

45:44

as I remember it, he was in

45:46

a hotel room somewhere. And

45:50

we had sent a recordist to

45:53

record his side of the conversation.

45:56

And the interview kept getting pushed

45:58

back in five minutes. it chunks

46:01

as the recordist tried to get Paul

46:03

to agree to let him hold

46:06

the microphone up in his face. He

46:08

would keep hitting record and putting the mic up and

46:10

then Paul would be like, ah, get it out of my

46:12

face. Get it away from me. Until

46:15

finally he had to record

46:18

it from behind

46:20

a mountain of pillows, like, I don't

46:23

know, 10 feet away or something.

46:27

And I

46:29

don't know, did it matter? We had to do a lot

46:31

of post-processing on it to make

46:34

it sound right.

46:36

But that's just

46:38

what Paul's deal was. He

46:41

was persnickety about that

46:43

kind of thing because he had earned it and it was

46:45

the persnickettiness that had

46:48

made him able to be

46:51

Pee-Wee Herman, create Pee-Wee Herman

46:54

and not just that but own Pee-Wee

46:56

Herman through his entire career.

47:00

And of course, as grumpy

47:03

and persnickety as he was about having

47:05

that microphone in his face, he was also

47:08

extraordinarily patient and graceful

47:10

and gracious

47:12

with me in conversation.

47:14

It was one of those times on this show when

47:17

I got to do just the very thing that I

47:19

dreamed

47:20

of. Thanks,

47:25

Bullseye. I'm Jesse Thorn. This week

47:28

we're looking back on the life and work of

47:30

Paul Rubens, the creator of Pee-Wee

47:32

Herman.

47:34

Maybe you've seen a few episodes of Pee-Wee's

47:36

Playhouse. Maybe you watched Pee-Wee's Big

47:38

Adventure or Big Top Pee-Wee when you were a kid.

47:41

They're all great and weird and unforgettable.

47:45

A few years back for a holiday episode

47:47

of this show,

47:48

I recorded a tribute to another

47:51

indispensable part of the Pee-Wee Herman

47:53

oeuvre. The Pee-Wee's Playhouse

47:56

Christmas Special.

48:02

So, I don't have a lot of holiday traditions,

48:04

personally. I mean, I love Christmas. I used

48:06

to do it twice a year, once with dad and once with mom.

48:09

It was great. Two trees, two sets

48:11

of presents, two bottles of eggnog from Mitchell's

48:13

Ice Cream.

48:14

I just don't have a lot of special things that I do now

48:17

as a grown-up. There is one,

48:19

though. Every year, I make

48:21

some time for the Pee-Wee's Playhouse

48:24

Christmas Special. Oh, it's

48:26

Christmas in the

48:28

Playhouse, and

48:30

our hearts are all alone,

48:34

as we welcome you to the Playhouse,

48:38

and to Pee-Wee's Christmas

48:40

Special. The

48:43

Playhouse was a crazy, postmodern version

48:46

of mid-century America. Cowboys

48:48

and puppets and hipster jazz bows. The

48:51

perfect place to have a crazy Christmas. Something that

48:53

celebrates warmth and giving

48:55

and kindness, but is also completely

48:58

insane. Like ice skating with Little Richard. Hi,

49:01

Little Richard! How's

49:02

it going? Hi, Pee-Wee!

49:05

Whoo! Great

49:10

gosh, I'm mining! Little Richard,

49:12

are you all right? You know me,

49:15

Pee-Wee. I always fall down,

49:17

but I get right back up and try again. If

49:20

at first you don't succeed, you know what they say.

49:23

You're trying, you're trying, you're trying!

49:27

Except ice skating, I give up, I

49:29

quit.

49:30

And Pee-Wee forcing

49:33

Frankie and Annette Funicello into holiday

49:35

decoration making in Dentrude Servitude.

49:39

All right! I'm going to have to separate you

49:41

two. Now get back to work.

49:42

I need 500 of each of those by

49:45

sundown.

49:49

I'm going to call for him Oprah. Hello?

49:53

Hello? Pee-Wee, is this you? Who

49:55

wants to know? This is Oprah Winfrey.

49:57

Hi! Hi! Hi!

50:00

I just wanted to say Merry

50:03

Christmas to you. Merry Christmas, Oprah!

50:05

I'm gonna have to call you back. I have Dinah Shore

50:08

on the other line. Mm-hmm. Ha

50:10

ha! Ha ha! There's

50:12

even a part where a giant crate gets delivered

50:14

from the North Pole, and inside

50:17

is Grace Jones. Okay, peewee. It's

50:24

Grace Jones! Wait

50:26

a minute. You're not the

50:28

president. You're Peewee

50:31

Herman! Duh! I

50:33

mean, come on. It's easy to complain about how ridiculous

50:36

Christmas is. Too commercial, too phony, too

50:38

religious, not religious enough.

50:41

But why not just celebrate? The holidays are great!

50:43

Right in the depths of winter, there's some time

50:45

where we've all agreed to think about what we're grateful

50:48

for and do a little something nice for each other.

50:50

We might as well have a few laughs along the way. So

50:53

I say, thanks, Peewee, for 25

50:55

years of fun

50:56

and friendship. Feliz

50:58

Navidad. Merry Christmas,

51:01

everybody! Merry Christmas,

51:05

everyone! Merry Christmas, everyone! Merry

51:13

Christmas, everyone! Merry

51:15

Christmas, everyone!

51:20

Ha ha! We'll hear

51:22

the rest of Bullseye's tribute to Paul Reubens

51:25

and Peewee Herman after a quick break.

51:27

Be right back. It's Bullseye from MaximumFun.org

51:31

and NPR. Hey

51:33

there, beautiful people. I'm Jarrett Hill. And

51:36

I'm Trayville Anderson. And we want to know, have

51:38

you ever had mixed feelings about the things

51:40

that you love? Ooh, maybe about the things

51:42

that you hate? Then Fanta is the

51:44

show for you. Fanta is the podcast for all

51:46

those complex and complicado conversations

51:49

about the gray areas in our lives.

51:51

You might have conflicting feelings about Kamala

51:53

Harris or propaganda or

51:55

interracial friending. Mm-hmm.

51:57

That's all right, because we do too.

52:00

we get into it every single Thursday, catch

52:02

this slay-worthy audio at MaximumFun.org.

52:05

That's MaximumFun.org

52:06

slash Fanti. That's F-A-N-T-I.

52:10

Come get all this good good. Or this great

52:12

great.

52:18

Welcome back to Bullseye.

52:20

I'm Jesse Thorne.

52:22

If you're just joining us, we're looking back

52:24

on the life and work of Paul Rubens. Paul

52:27

was the creator and star of Pee-Wee's

52:29

Playhouse. He played the character

52:32

of Pee-Wee Herman for over four decades,

52:35

capturing the hearts and imaginations

52:37

of millions of children.

52:39

He died on July 31st after a six-year

52:42

bout with cancer. He was 70. The

52:45

last thing Paul ever did as Pee-Wee

52:48

was the Pee-Wee Herman Radio Hour. So

52:52

four or five years ago, I

52:55

got a text message from my

52:57

friend Nick White, who used to be the editor of

52:59

this show. He was working at KCRW in Santa

53:01

Monica, one of the big public radio stations

53:04

here in LA.

53:06

And he said, Gary, the program

53:08

director, is gonna

53:10

have a meeting with Pee-Wee Herman. And

53:14

I'm telling him that if they get anything going,

53:16

you have to be the producer.

53:19

And at the time, I

53:21

just chose not to believe that it was real.

53:25

I was like, nothing's gonna, this meeting's not gonna

53:27

happen. If it happens, they're not gonna get something going.

53:29

If they get something going, I'm not gonna get to be the producer.

53:32

And I didn't believe that it was real until,

53:36

I was gonna say until I sat

53:38

down in a cafe with Gary and had a meeting

53:40

with him and told him my ideas for what

53:42

the show could be. And he said, yes, that sounds

53:45

good. But even then,

53:47

I didn't think it was real.

53:49

And it turned

53:51

out that it did happen. It

53:54

took years and years.

53:56

I hooked in my friend, Julia Smith, who loves

53:59

Pee-Wee.

53:59

as much as I do and who used to be the producer

54:02

of this show back in the day. And she

54:04

and

54:05

I worked on this show with

54:07

Paul for, I mean,

54:09

I looked at something like two or three years.

54:13

And

54:14

we came up with an idea for what

54:16

it could be.

54:18

Paul really wanted to be a radio DJ.

54:20

I think that

54:22

he would have been perfectly willing to just go

54:24

into KCRW and play his favorite songs.

54:28

But he also wanted to find a

54:30

way to be Pee Wee Herman

54:34

as a guy in his

54:36

sixties who just didn't have it in him anymore

54:39

to put on the makeup and the costume

54:41

and try and

54:44

figure out how to act like a nine

54:46

year old boy when he was 65.

54:48

And so we came up

54:50

with

54:53

this show where Pee

54:55

Wee Herman takes over an hour

54:58

at KCRW,

55:00

says he's going to play his favorite songs, but

55:02

all kinds of crazy

55:04

Pee Wee's Playhouse things happen

55:06

too. Like I said, this

55:10

is certainly the longest I've ever worked on

55:12

anything, especially one

55:14

hour because Paul was so monumentally

55:18

careful about

55:20

everything about Pee Wee Herman, this character

55:23

that he had created and owned and protected

55:25

from meddlers for decades.

55:29

It was like pulling a plow through granite.

55:33

But the whole time, not only was

55:35

I just thinking, gosh,

55:38

there's Paul Rubens. He created Pee

55:40

Wee Herman, the most important thing to me ever,

55:43

but Paul was extraordinarily

55:49

gracious and charming and

55:51

delightful.

55:53

Even on round 7,342 of the edits,

55:55

he was gracious and charming. charming

56:00

and delightful. He

56:02

put my friend who edited the show through

56:05

so much that he finally had to quit. And

56:09

they still like texted each other afterwards.

56:13

I mean, I don't know what to tell you about

56:16

the Pee Wee Herman radio hour. You can listen to

56:18

the whole thing at KCRW.com.

56:21

As far as I'm concerned, I've been working on Bullseye

56:23

for 20 years. I've been doing my

56:26

comedy shows for 15-ish years.

56:30

If

56:31

I died tomorrow because I got hit by a train

56:34

and the death notice

56:36

said, Jesse Thorne, colon,

56:40

worked on a Pee Wee Herman thing one time,

56:43

I'd be perfectly fine with that.

56:45

So I'm going to play a little bit

56:48

of it. Just for

56:51

context, Pee

56:54

Wee Herman is hosting his own radio show. He's

56:58

just a sort of radio DJ. But

57:00

the Playhouse Gang are all there, Cherry

57:02

and Miss Yvonne. And Jack

57:05

White called in, the real

57:07

Jack White. At one point,

57:08

Paul Rubens was just like, I

57:11

could ask Jack White to call in. We're

57:13

like, I could do a thing about Jack

57:15

White and Jack Black. And we're like, OK, yes,

57:17

of course you should call them. Yes, please

57:20

do. Of course.

57:21

Anyway,

57:25

basically the premise is that Pee

57:27

Wee's attention span is so short that he just

57:29

pulls the needle off every record he starts playing

57:31

and just

57:33

moves on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

57:36

But we have a

57:38

real

57:39

music guest in the studio on the

57:41

show. And she was

57:44

really in the studio on the show. It

57:46

is

57:47

one of the iconic Pee

57:49

Wee Herman friends. We couldn't believe that we got

57:51

her to come in. The legendary

57:54

Spanish guitarist and singer, Charo.

57:59

guest today is a Spanish-American

58:02

actress, comedian, and virtuoso

58:05

flamenco guitarist. She's

58:08

known for her uninhibited and exuberant

58:10

personality

58:12

and her ostensible lack

58:14

of fluency in English. Oh,

58:17

and the catchphrase, coochie coochie,

58:20

please welcome my friend and fellow

58:22

artist, my

58:23

special guest, Charo!

58:25

You owe

58:27

me a

58:30

coke. You

58:36

know, a lot of people would like to know, is Charo

58:38

your stage name or is that your given

58:40

name? My full name is Longer

58:43

than a Serper tin. My

58:45

full name is Maria Rosario

58:47

Villar, Mercedes Baez,

58:50

Martíne Bolina, Gutierrez de los Perales

58:53

Santana, Roman Guerra de la Nocos

58:55

Arraste, a de yo serves. Your

58:57

passport probably

58:58

has to fold out, right? So

59:01

you have brothers and sisters, right? I have my

59:03

sister Carmen that she loves you. More

59:06

questions? Yes. What would

59:08

you have wanted to be if you didn't become

59:10

a famous guitarist? Is there something

59:12

else you might have been? Oh, yeah. I

59:14

was in a Catholic convent. I was

59:16

none in the morning, none in the afternoon, none

59:18

in the evening. I

59:21

can't picture you as a nun, really. It's hard.

59:24

Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Can I talk? I

59:26

don't know. Can you? Are

59:29

you impressed with my English? It's very

59:31

good. Oh, absolutely. I

59:34

didn't realize you were even speaking English. You

59:36

know, when I first met you, I had a lot of trouble

59:38

understanding you. Now I

59:40

only have a medium amount of trouble

59:42

understanding. Aloha. Yeah.

59:45

Many people don't really know. In fact, you don't even really

59:47

know that we met originally in

59:50

Hawaii at your

59:50

restaurant many, many years ago. I

59:52

walked into your restaurant because I was such a huge

59:55

Charo fan. Wow. And your

59:57

restaurant was in such a beautiful place in Hawaii.

1:00:00

and believe it on Kauai at the very, very end.

1:00:02

Just before you get to the part you can only

1:00:05

get to by helicopter, the Nepali

1:00:07

coast. There's your restaurant, big

1:00:09

sign Charos. I'm like, oh my God, I

1:00:11

gotta go in, meet you. And I met

1:00:13

your sister, Carmen, and she said, yes,

1:00:16

Charos right here. And you came out and you were so

1:00:18

nice to me and you said hello and everything.

1:00:21

I love that story. Let

1:00:23

me tell you what I'm

1:00:25

doing lately. Oh yeah. My

1:00:27

latest adventure and an honor

1:00:29

to introduce it to you is Fantastical.

1:00:33

The day at Capitol Studio,

1:00:35

when I finish, I cry because

1:00:38

I will never, ever

1:00:39

do something better than that.

1:00:42

I learn guitar with a gypsy.

1:00:45

My grandmother loved gypsy.

1:00:48

So we became family. Let's listen

1:00:50

to it right now. Everybody, here

1:00:53

is Charo playing Fantastical.

1:00:57

braker. Just

1:01:06

kidding, Char. Ha

1:01:10

ha. Ha ha. Oh,

1:01:54

I forgot. Yay!

1:02:07

That was

1:02:13

fantastic! That

1:02:15

was fantastico! She's

1:02:19

a wonderful child. Thank

1:02:23

you, Charri! That was amazing!

1:02:25

Charri, Charri, Charri, Charri, Charri,

1:02:27

Charri, Charri... Oh,

1:02:30

the paella is ready! Guess

1:02:34

what our snack was, guess! Paella!

1:02:39

Charri, try a little bite, taste a little bit.

1:02:44

The paella has only been cooking for 12 minutes

1:02:46

in the microwave instead of 3 hours.

1:02:49

No, Pee-wee! You give the paella

1:02:52

a pee-wee! It smells

1:02:54

okay, but it tastes terrible. I don't

1:02:56

feel so good. Hey,

1:03:11

Pee-wee! It's time for the camping

1:03:13

trip contest! Oh, that's right,

1:03:15

Cocky! Hey,

1:03:16

everyone! We have an incredible

1:03:18

contest! One lucky caller

1:03:20

is going to win a camping trip

1:03:23

with me, Pee-wee Harbin! For

1:03:26

one fabulous weekend, we're

1:03:28

going to go exploring, make some oars,

1:03:31

and sleep under the stars! Intense

1:03:33

provided by whoever wins. We're

1:03:35

going to open the phone lines right now and

1:03:38

take the 15th caller, the 15th caller! Whoa!

1:03:41

Look

1:03:42

at this! The switchboard is lighting

1:03:44

up! Hello?

1:03:48

Call? Did it win? No.

1:03:51

Your caller number one. Hello?

1:03:56

Did that win? Nope.

1:03:59

Call too soon. Hello! I

1:04:01

can't

1:04:01

believe it! Neither

1:04:04

can I, you're caller number three! La

1:04:07

la la la! Hello? I've

1:04:10

never won anything!

1:04:12

Well your streak is still alive!

1:04:15

Hello? I am

1:04:17

so excited! Because

1:04:21

you lost? Ha ha! Hello? Hello?

1:04:26

We don't want to check a man up! I'm

1:04:31

caller number seven,

1:04:32

aren't I? Well, how did you know that? Hello?

1:04:38

Peeling? That's my name, don't wear it out!

1:04:43

Hello? Is this really happening? Me,

1:04:45

hanging up on you? Yes! Ha

1:04:47

ha ha! Hello?

1:04:48

I'm off! Uh,

1:04:51

how do I break this to you? Hello?

1:04:55

Hamid? We pay my harmon?

1:04:58

Is something you won't be doing. Ha

1:05:01

ha! Hello?

1:05:03

Am I caller fifteen? No, caller twelve,

1:05:06

buh-bye.

1:05:06

Hello?

1:05:10

I'm usually so unlucky! Well

1:05:12

your story checks out, caller thirteen.

1:05:15

Hello? Did I win? You

1:05:18

lost! Hello?

1:05:21

Hello?

1:05:22

Congratulations! You

1:05:24

are caller fifteen! Who is calling? This

1:05:27

is Derek Goff. Well,

1:05:30

congratulations Derek Goff. You

1:05:33

are caller number fifteen, which means you have

1:05:35

just won a no-expenses-paid

1:05:38

camping trip with me! Peewee Herman!

1:05:40

You're kidding me! See, Peewee

1:05:43

Herman? Ha ha! Why

1:05:46

would I make that up? And if I did, wouldn't

1:05:48

I pick a way bigger celebrity? I

1:05:50

freaking love you Peewee! Dang! This

1:05:54

is so exciting! I haven't been camping

1:05:56

in years! Well, we are going

1:05:58

to have such a- Lovely time! It's

1:06:01

gonna be really fun, Derek! I'm making out of

1:06:03

penitentiary. All calls are recorded. Ugh.

1:06:07

What was that? Sorry, that thing plays

1:06:09

on all our calls. I'm in lockup right

1:06:11

now. Oh, well,

1:06:13

uh... I'm only free

1:06:15

to do the camping trip next weekend. And if you're in prison,

1:06:18

well, ha ha ha ha! I guess

1:06:20

it just won't work out.

1:06:21

No, no, no, it will! I'm out

1:06:24

in two days. How about that? After

1:06:26

nine years, and I'm going camping with

1:06:29

you! If you don't mind my asking, what

1:06:31

are you in prison for? Long

1:06:33

robbery, breaking and entering, kidnapping.

1:06:37

This call is from a federal penitentiary.

1:06:39

All calls are recorded. But

1:06:42

listen, when I tell you my real name, Peewee,

1:06:44

you can look me up and read all about me. I'm

1:06:47

super excited I'll be spending my very first

1:06:49

night out of this joint with someone I think is so cute!

1:06:55

Well,

1:06:56

let's get to our next song, shall we? Sly

1:07:00

and the Family Stone, my very

1:07:02

first stage production, many of you may

1:07:04

remember, many, many, many, many,

1:07:06

many years ago, included a musical

1:07:08

salute to Mr. Sly's stone. That's

1:07:11

how much I like him. Also, he

1:07:14

created the R sound.

1:07:17

And now, Sly and the Family Stone

1:07:19

with Dance to

1:07:21

the Music! That's

1:07:50

a little bit from the Peewee Herman Radio

1:07:53

Hour from 2021. My

1:07:55

friend Julia Smith and I produced that for KCRW

1:07:57

in Santa Monica. Our thanks to KCRW for being

1:07:59

here.

1:07:59

for letting us play that on this show.

1:08:02

You can listen to the whole thing at kcrw.com.

1:08:07

Can I say, I can't tell you how

1:08:10

surreal it is to be sitting in a radio studio,

1:08:12

listening to Charo and listening

1:08:15

to, you know, Josh Myers do the

1:08:17

other play houses. I mean, the actual

1:08:19

Miss Yvonne came in and gave

1:08:21

Paul a big hug and sat down in front of me, gave

1:08:24

me a big hug. Unbelievable,

1:08:28

this experience. But probably

1:08:31

the most unbelievable is when

1:08:34

Charo came in and apologies

1:08:37

to Charo

1:08:37

for her doing a horrible

1:08:40

impression of

1:08:42

her voice, but she came in and

1:08:45

she saw Paul and she said,

1:08:48

she said, hello,

1:08:50

Pee-wee. And

1:08:52

she went and she gave him a big hug. And

1:08:54

then she turned to give me a hug, a person that she

1:08:56

had never met in her life. And she goes,

1:08:59

Pee-wee is not his name,

1:09:01

but it's okay. I call him Matt.

1:09:04

And you just saw Paul, Paul

1:09:07

looking at her like, yes, it's okay

1:09:09

for Charo to call me that.

1:09:14

I

1:09:17

can't believe, I still can't believe I got to

1:09:19

work on that. Look,

1:09:21

this is the end of the show.

1:09:25

I can't believe that Paul is gone. I can't

1:09:27

believe that we don't get to enjoy that anymore. At

1:09:30

least we still have the amazing, amazing things

1:09:33

that he made. And all

1:09:35

I can say to him is not,

1:09:38

not just for making the Pee-wee

1:09:40

Herman Radio Hour or whatever, but

1:09:42

for everything in my life,

1:09:45

my whole career and a

1:09:47

big chunk of who I am.

1:09:53

Thank you, Paul. Even you, Paul.

1:09:57

I'm very proud of you. That's

1:10:01

the end of

1:10:04

another episode of

1:10:07

Bullseye. Bullseye

1:10:19

is created from the homes of me and the staff

1:10:21

of Maximum Fun in and around greater Los

1:10:23

Angeles, California.

1:10:25

I'm actually headed to my cabin in the Southern

1:10:27

Sierras and I have Big

1:10:30

Top Pee-Wee's big adventure in

1:10:32

every episode of the playhouse on VHS

1:10:35

up there. So I think you

1:10:37

know what I'll be doing with my kids for

1:10:38

the next few days.

1:10:56

Our show is produced by Speaking Into Microphones.

1:10:59

Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our

1:11:01

producers are Jesus Amprocio and Richard

1:11:03

Roby. Our production fellow at Maximum Fun

1:11:05

is Brianna Paz. We get booking

1:11:07

help from Mara Davis. Our interstitial music

1:11:10

is composed and provided to us by DJW,

1:11:12

also known as Dan Wale. Our theme

1:11:15

song is by the Go Team. It's

1:11:17

called Huddle Formation, thanks to them and

1:11:19

to their label, Memphis Industries. Also

1:11:21

thanks this week to Alex Capelman for recording

1:11:24

Paul's interview in his hotel room

1:11:26

and for putting up with Paul hating microphones.

1:11:30

Thanks to Nick White for editing that interview and

1:11:32

for editing my tribute to the Pee-Wee's

1:11:34

Playhouse Christmas special. Also thank you

1:11:37

for getting me that gig, making

1:11:40

a radio show with Pee-Wee Herman. Thanks

1:11:43

to Julia Smith for producing those shows

1:11:46

and also for producing

1:11:48

the Pee-Wee Herman radio hour with me along with

1:11:51

Casey O'Brien and Dave

1:11:53

Schumpka and countless

1:11:56

others

1:11:56

at Maximum Fun. It

1:12:00

was a lot of work. And

1:12:03

we can all say for the rest of our lives we got to do that.

1:12:06

Bullseye is on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.

1:12:08

Find us there, follow us, we will share with you all of

1:12:10

our interviews. You can hear the whole Pee Wee

1:12:12

Herman Radio Hour at kcrw.com.

1:12:15

And I think that's about it. Just remember, all

1:12:17

great radio hosts have a signature sign-off.

1:12:21

Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is a

1:12:23

production of MaximumFun.org

1:12:25

and is distributed by NPR.