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with Jesse Thorn is a production

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distributed by NPR. It's

0:38

Bullseye. I'm Jesse Thorn. How

0:40

many TV episodes has Shonda Rhimes written?

0:43

It's got to be hundreds, right? Maybe a thousand?

0:46

She's created seven shows. Scandal,

0:49

Private Practice and Grey's Anatomy among them. Grey's

0:52

Anatomy, of course, is one of the

0:54

longest running primetime television shows ever. Pretty

0:57

much everything that Shonda Rhimes has made

0:59

has been watched and adored by millions.

1:02

She's gotten awards, praise, Emmys,

1:04

the NAACP, the Writers Guild, the

1:06

GLAAD, even Michelle Obama is a

1:09

fan. Look, I

1:11

could go on, but instead, let's just

1:13

agree. Shonda Rhimes is beloved and

1:15

accomplished. Imagine the amount of

1:17

work all that took. The number of days

1:19

and nights staring at a blank screen, then

1:21

an outline, then a draft, rewrites, shoots, writers

1:24

rooms over and over and over again. Hundreds

1:26

and hundreds of times. What

1:28

if I told you that despite all

1:30

her accomplishments and her accolades, Shonda Rhimes

1:32

is only just now starting to feel

1:34

like a success. That,

1:38

along with a bunch of other stuff, is what

1:40

she told our correspondent, Jared Hill, in this interview we're

1:42

about to play for you. It's from last year. It's

1:45

kind of astonishing to think that there is

1:47

basically no level of success at which you

1:50

are immune from insecurity. A

1:52

year ago, her newest project was Queen

1:54

Charlotte, a spin-off of Bridgerton. It

1:57

was produced by Rhimes and her company Shondaland.

2:00

It was nominated for to Emmys and

2:02

to com one. The third season of

2:04

Bridger tend to premiere last month. So.

2:06

Queen Charlotte. Like Bridge or Ten, it's a

2:09

period drama series said in the region Sierra,

2:11

but instead of the Bridge or Tim Family,

2:13

the show focuses on the Queen herself and

2:16

on her rise to prominence in power. Here's.

2:18

A clip from the shows pilot and this

2:21

seen A young Queen Charlotte is set to

2:23

marry a man she has not yet. Matt

2:25

it's an arranged marriage. She's traveling with her

2:27

brother Adolphus to meet her new husband. And.

2:30

She doesn't seem too thrilled about it. You

2:32

can leave him to the statue. Of

2:34

lots. Of beautiful.

2:37

Art can be beautiful to gaze upon

2:39

him or ridiculous to the ice. Is

2:42

there a point you have not moved

2:44

an inch in six hours? I wearing

2:46

Lyonnais. Self encrusted with Indian sapphire

2:49

working with overlay of two hundred

2:51

year old lady. Partly

2:54

too much movement. Cool cause the sapphire

2:56

to shreds the life. If that's not

2:58

enough, the gown sits atop a bespoke

3:00

underpinning made of wildlife. Well, but. Yes!

3:03

Whalebone Brother. The bones

3:05

of Wales, Wales. Died so

3:08

I could look like they're. All.

3:10

The finest course it's a whale by He would know that

3:12

if he knew anything. If

3:14

you as a paid attention you would also know

3:16

that's the problem. The play oh by the fact

3:19

is rather delicate and also very very sharp. And

3:21

of course I'm in the height of fashion scientists

3:23

cause it is quite snug. So. I

3:25

give the appearance of a success. ridiculous city

3:27

I but that's because I cannot. Miss. Some

3:30

derives welcome to both I'll are you

3:32

get excited to be here. Thank.

3:35

You for being here. I I gotta check

3:37

out the first couple of episodes of Queen

3:39

Charlotte. And the first thing I kind of

3:42

wanted to ask you about Queen Charlotte. Before

3:44

we really talk about you and your career

3:46

in writing, I'm curious about how the vision

3:49

for Queen Charlotte began for ya know that

3:51

Britain? obviously I the orders or if Queen

3:53

Charlotte, but Queen Charlotte has really kind of

3:55

developed into her own kind of her own

3:58

theories and or own stories. Us. It

4:00

really good starter for you. How did you start seeing it? You.

4:02

Know. Queen. Charlotte as played

4:04

by goal that in Bridge or Ten,

4:06

the actors in Britain was so dynamic

4:08

and so interesting to me and I

4:11

felt like. I. Was always drawn

4:13

to watching her and I wanted to see more

4:15

when even when with these scenes. And.

4:18

Really made me sad to think about how

4:20

seeing grew into that power. How she became

4:22

such an amazing. Am three dimensional

4:24

person. And. Also.

4:26

The real story of Queen Charlotte King

4:28

George was. No. Were sort of

4:30

doing. Fiction: Inspired by fact. but that

4:33

real story was so. Exciting. To m

4:35

workless, And

4:37

one of your interviews recently I was watching

4:39

a lot of different a review talked about

4:42

owning power you actually to sue the language.

4:44

Now talking about Queen Charlotte and I remember

4:46

watching Queen Charlotte and bridges him in thinking

4:48

she was so interesting and unexpectedly funny and

4:50

there was like they're always seem like there

4:53

was a little bit more their beneath the

4:55

surface am always kind of wanted to be

4:57

like oh I definitely want to know what

4:59

she's thinking mayor or how she came up

5:01

with that or what. That was key. Talk

5:04

about how you see Queen Charlotte as a

5:06

figure as. A person. Oh my

5:08

gosh, I. Special. Them and

5:10

me when we meet her when she's young she's

5:12

very naive but she still has a sense of as

5:14

you could hear in the clip is see still

5:16

as a sense of. Very. Strong

5:19

and. Duty.

5:21

And less than Duke done to her, she understands

5:23

that her power doesn't exist yet. And

5:25

watching for sort of com indo. It was

5:27

really fun that she does. He has this

5:30

amazing sense of humor, sees him very witty

5:32

and click with a word and knows what

5:34

she wants. She just doesn't know how to

5:36

get what she. Wants when we first meet her. Talk

5:40

to me a little bit about how would

5:42

you wrote this. I will tell you that

5:44

I have iced up. I've been a journalist

5:47

for twenty years and I started screenwriting a

5:49

number of years ago, and the way that

5:51

I started doing that was by taking your

5:53

masterclass actually pull my.com That was a really

5:55

transformative moment for me. So getting to kind

5:58

of understand a bit of you're right, The

6:00

process was illuminating and I'm curious

6:02

about how you attack this story.

6:05

For. Me Now I think I'm in a process

6:07

where instead as. Out mail, writing

6:09

lengthy outlines and doing a my. Just

6:12

as I really just. Start writing

6:14

and see where it takes me. and

6:16

I do all my research. I know

6:18

what world I'm. In so I feel

6:20

educated about that and then I just start

6:23

writing and truly see where. The story goes,

6:25

I try to follow the characters. To where

6:27

they should go. Which. Is so much

6:29

fun! For me and I've been doing it that way

6:31

from i don't know if teen years or so. And

6:34

is the only way I can write it is t. I

6:38

remember in your masterclass he said something

6:40

that was really really freeing for me.

6:42

I'm I've always gotten down on myself

6:44

a bow, getting started and having a

6:47

difficult time of like okay, it's time

6:49

to right? Let's do it. And in

6:51

the masterclass you said something to the

6:54

effect of my writing process is giving

6:56

us a water, getting some headphones, turning

6:58

on some music, Getting

7:00

on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and then

7:03

maybe opening the document and then looking at

7:05

this and I was like oh my god

7:07

I'm not crazy like I'm not doing this

7:09

wrong. Talk to me a little bit about

7:11

what you've learned about writing even in the

7:14

last decade of as you can have gone

7:16

from up from one network to another. You.

7:19

For me, the process is still almost the

7:21

same you know you think set. And.

7:23

I was has this like magical idea that. Is. Just

7:26

sit down and at some point the writings as

7:28

comes out. That. Does not happen so.

7:30

I do have all these little rituals I

7:33

have to do now. It's like I made

7:35

any dwight twenty minutes as his comedy or

7:37

something. Before I write, I had things on.

7:40

But. As long as I end up

7:42

writing that day, I seal. Okay and I

7:44

feel successful. It's. Really

7:46

hard to get started. For people, it's really hard

7:48

to get started for me. Even now I procrastinated.

7:50

Writing the beginning of in Charlotte for I

7:52

don't know how long. Seriously. But.

7:55

I was like once I'm writing once and in it.

7:57

And slimming and I'm dead. You

8:01

refer to writing as being your food

8:03

and as your air and like as

8:05

essentially lifeblood for you to. Does it

8:07

still feel that way all these years

8:10

in as a writer or has that

8:12

started to shift in change or how

8:14

do you think about that. Know.

8:16

It's definitely still feels that way any

8:19

as kids and life but. The.

8:21

Reality of it is is when I'm sitting down

8:23

and I'm writing. It. Truly is like no

8:25

other feeling for me. I. See all.

8:28

Hole in a way that I just don't feel

8:30

another place is so yeah. still my food, my

8:33

air and I have. I hope it continues to

8:35

be that because it. As when

8:37

writing something for selling said i'm gonna have

8:39

subduing it. I

8:42

watch Queen Charlotte and immediately thought to

8:44

myself even with British him and thought

8:46

how is it different for you Now

8:48

I'm writing at Netflix and doing Bill

8:51

Clinton for Netflix and obviously you can

8:53

trust and have no different than sex

8:55

scenes maybe. But I'm curious about how

8:57

you approach it differently if you approach

8:59

it differently. thinking about Netflix and a

9:02

streaming audience as opposed to a network

9:04

audience. And I always

9:06

used to say that one I was at

9:08

the network I was writing a specific kind

9:10

of shell. I signed the land. For.

9:12

That Network. And now that I'm

9:15

at Netflix, I'm There's no. Sort

9:17

of Brandon I'm creating for their specific

9:19

audience because their specific audience is the

9:21

world. Which. Is fascinating so I no

9:23

longer have to worry. am I. Going.

9:26

To speak to my audience correctly or him in a way

9:28

to seven Want to hear it? Is. A

9:30

lot of freedom. Their. You

9:33

we referred. So writing Grey's Anatomy and

9:35

as silly as lane track for a

9:38

train has already coming down of that's

9:40

that's hundreds way does it feel that

9:42

way for you up with Queen Charlotte

9:44

or is it a little bit different

9:46

now that you don't have like a

9:48

network air date coming and of like

9:50

that. You. Know I'm

9:52

used to be responsible for seventy

9:54

hours of television as season. Which

9:56

meant that I mean literally every day says

9:59

in his script. Three different shows every

10:01

eight days or has to be a new script

10:03

that comes out so that they can start to

10:05

prep it for productions. That's what I meant. By

10:07

laying track for a train because that train really

10:09

is coming no matter what and you have to

10:12

have the track their the scripts must be there.

10:14

This is very different. You know you're making. A

10:17

Queen Charlotte is I think six episodes are

10:19

you making six episodes and you can sort

10:21

of right them completely see with the whole

10:23

picture is and then. Handed over to

10:25

production. There. Is no. You

10:27

know and much for action. starts to. Have a frantic oh my

10:29

god, what's next time I going to do this next?

10:32

You get to enjoy the process. Of making something.

10:35

How has your life changed since we've

10:37

seen you kind of transition to Netflix

10:39

Am and really releasing different kinds of

10:42

shows? How is it than different for

10:44

you as a person. I

10:47

think before, I didn't necessarily have

10:49

time to enjoy. When. I was

10:51

doing in a while it was happening or enjoying

10:53

the accomplishments when they came because I was so

10:56

busy. Now. I feel like I get

10:58

to sit back a little bit and enjoy, and

11:00

I still have a lot more creative time to

11:02

write, which. That was what I was

11:04

first. Be doing in the first place. but I

11:06

found myself doing all kinds of other things that

11:08

weren't writing and now. Writing

11:10

is the focus is wonderful. What

11:13

is enjoying it look like. I'm.

11:16

To me I in I have time to

11:18

take blocks and think about things. I have

11:20

time to read novels and think about things.

11:22

Things that. When. I think

11:24

when I left on the network I

11:26

had a hundred and twenty seven. I

11:28

counted books piled up around my bedroom

11:31

that had been planning. To repeat or. And

11:33

never had the time to read. So

11:35

now I I spend time reading. I

11:38

go to the library. I. I

11:40

get a really have lice and honestly you

11:42

can't be creative. When. A life of

11:44

your own isn't sort of happenings. him whether you're

11:46

right about. When. You're not in the world

11:48

so now have time to really be in the world.

11:52

When. I

11:54

started Queen Charlotte. There's pretty quickly

11:57

a conversation about race that starts

11:59

and that. An. Mit. Researching.

12:01

You and like knowing your work. Over the

12:04

years I've heard you talk about always reading

12:06

the news. I'm in being very tapped into

12:08

what's happening in the world around you and

12:10

as a journalist I have had a difficult

12:12

time stay plugged into the news over the

12:15

last few years. It's like burnt me out.

12:17

How are you thinking about like staying engaged

12:19

with the news him and staying Try to

12:21

stay current as you're also writing these stories

12:23

to. There's definitely some moments in and Queen

12:26

Charlotte where I was like. I

12:29

feel like I could maybe see some inspiration cover

12:31

for. Their. How you think about about

12:33

news consumption and insane current. For.

12:36

Now and I think this started sometime

12:38

during the pandemic. I. Stopped.

12:41

For a while I. Pulled. Back because the

12:43

news really was just increasingly more

12:46

disturbing and depressing. And you know,

12:49

I. Didn't want to serve. Sink in. that. I.

12:51

Wanted to be entertained. I wanted to watch

12:53

something that made me feel dead and some

12:55

that's when that. Kind of writing for print it and

12:57

came from. But. More

13:00

importantly, now. I. Really

13:02

sort of limited, but I have one

13:04

thing I read. I have a five

13:06

minute little Npr morning thing that I

13:08

listened to and that's it, because otherwise

13:10

I'd. Make myself crazy with all of it.

13:13

And. It would sell my mind's I'm trying really hard to

13:15

step back from it. I

13:17

I can relate to the feeling

13:19

crazy of by saying to tap

13:22

dance. Can. We hang out

13:24

there a little bit I'm curious about

13:26

like making the choice to stop watching

13:28

these for me. it was feeling burnt

13:31

out and exhausted and I'm being a

13:33

person with depression and anxiety like. Suicidal.

13:36

Ideation even at it's worst points rights. But

13:38

once I turned it off, I remember it

13:40

had only been like a couple of days

13:42

I wasn't watching and then it was a

13:44

week and then it was a few weeks

13:46

and then it was months where I hadn't

13:48

turned it on and I started to feel

13:50

myself feeling differently. I'm curious about going off

13:52

of news. what was that like for you?

13:54

How did it added in that have an

13:56

impact. Alison had

13:59

a huge impact. For me it

14:01

wasn't just that I would listen to it

14:03

and feel upset. Nexus was I know is

14:05

huge and and. Really happened to a lot

14:07

of people around me. I would

14:09

also like I have this enraged factor that

14:11

happened so I was listening news and I

14:13

would really get angry about what was happening

14:15

and I try to figure out like what

14:17

can we do to stop this and how

14:19

can we and I realized that. I

14:21

was literally sort of like eating myself

14:24

alive. By. Listening to what was happening

14:26

is it was so bad. And

14:28

that's just wasn't healthy in any. Way, Shape or form.

14:31

And I really wanted to let it go to

14:33

give myself a chance to. Experience.

14:35

The world without. The. Doom and Gloom.

14:37

The other thing that you know, this is how

14:39

much they focus on just the doom and gloom.

14:42

And not on other aspects

14:44

of life which. He.

14:47

I wish it wasn't that way. so I I'd

14:49

sort of took a break and the break was

14:51

good. For. Domestic. A

14:53

quick break when we returned. will have

14:55

more of Jared Health conversation with Shonda

14:57

Rhimes. It's bull's Eye for Maximum fun.org

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one.com/commercial A member as be.

16:29

Icing. Welcome

16:35

Back Doubles I I'm Jesse Thorn. Our guest

16:37

is Shonda Rhimes. She is of course, the

16:39

creator of Grey's Anatomy Private Practice. Used to

16:41

producer of more than a dozen other Tv

16:44

shows. He can watch the third season of

16:46

her latest show, Bridge or Ten on Netflix.

16:49

Interview in China is our correspondent Jarrett

16:51

Hill tear it is also a journalist

16:53

and author. When rhymes and he'll talk.

16:56

Last year she just launched the Bridget

16:58

In spin off Queen Charlotte. Let's.

17:00

Get back into their conversation. I.

17:05

Wrote down I was like i'm are

17:07

probably say that at some point sound

17:09

you could cure cancer and world poverty

17:11

and hunger and I would also remind

17:14

people see also created scandal by I

17:16

just want to make sure that people

17:18

remember that what do people approach you

17:20

the most about I'm from the work

17:22

that amount of people are very different

17:24

points of entry for you. Think.

17:26

Jail and let's Sas and eighty's me

17:29

as after. Twenty nineteen

17:31

Seasons had a into the twentieth. It's.

17:33

Still, Grey's Anatomy. And I

17:35

think it's because now that it's you know it's on

17:38

Netflix. Kids. Are discovering that sell

17:40

at twelve years old like fans have given birth

17:42

to fans. Kids discover that show at twelve years

17:44

old and they watch the whole thing. I thought

17:46

that will end at some point but it's not

17:49

ending. They're still doing it. I know they're still

17:51

doing it because everyone's to wound in a grocery

17:53

store in a matter. Twelve year olds was are

17:55

following me around and I'll. Realize others nephew

17:58

I now have anybody else. There's

18:00

but they did. Though. That's

18:02

the one I think his and as an

18:04

by the way so many young women went

18:06

into As and sciences and became doctors because

18:09

that show. Which. Is a really amazing

18:11

thing to be proud of. and I hear

18:13

about that laws. Are

18:16

you thinking about. Impact as

18:18

you're writing, various different kinds of shows are

18:20

figuring out clinton. Are you are you thinking

18:23

about that? or you really wanted to be

18:25

creative? How are you know? Process a map?

18:28

You. I never really think about how it's going

18:30

to be received. I try really hard to think

18:32

about. How. I wanna put it out in

18:34

the world like how I want it to look. I wanted

18:36

to be a when you start thinking about

18:39

how other people are gonna take it in

18:41

for me. that's enough that stops me dead

18:43

Creatively, I can't work. In that way, I sort

18:45

of have to keep my responsibility to the story,

18:47

not. To the outcome of stories. You

18:51

talked about. Writing

18:53

within guard rails kind of by

18:55

helping to be able to. Kind

18:59

of explore the creative like knowing and

19:01

he said the singer masterclass knowing the

19:03

ways that I meet her that the

19:06

to parameter as essentially of what the

19:08

story is and where we're going. and

19:10

I have an assignment. How did you

19:12

have figured the assignment for Queen Charlotte.

19:16

And. I'm not

19:18

sure I think in this Simon's anymore. But.

19:20

I did it. I did said some

19:22

parameters for that show because I knew

19:24

that I wanted to talk about. The.

19:27

Older women and not. They're. Not old,

19:29

but the older women of Bridger Ten in a

19:31

different way. I wanted to bring them into a

19:33

Queen Charlotte world and be able to us, you

19:35

know, the show is set in two different time

19:37

periods. Britain, time period and in Georgia and

19:39

era and you're seeing them when they're young

19:42

and that the current age and I really

19:44

wanted to get to explore that and see

19:46

how. Those. Women sort. Of came into

19:48

the around and who they are and. Listen to

19:50

them talk about their lives, Their sexuality.

19:53

All of that. You

19:56

said, you don't write with assignments any more.

19:59

I'm. I wanna hang out anymore.

20:01

I'm I'm guessing that was a Netflix

20:03

transition, but when you say anymore had

20:05

it. how in winter that change. Their.

20:09

Real guard rails enough network television.

20:11

And they're not arbitrary. and they're

20:13

not. For. Bad reasons. They're.

20:16

Trying to get to an audience at a

20:18

certain way and they have broadcast standards and

20:20

practices that they have. My.

20:22

Job was to try to, it's not my job

20:24

at one of my job says try to sell

20:26

story tell story while remaining within their guard rails

20:29

the tell the stories I wanted to tell. Which.

20:31

Bit telling a lot of stories that made them nervous.

20:34

But. In ways. That. They couldn't

20:36

actually say. Shouldn't. Be there! A

20:40

I want to go back as I also read your book the your

20:42

of yes. And that.

20:45

I was really intrigued by. You

20:47

deciding to say yes to

20:50

everything that year I'm and.

20:53

I we back and watch your Dartmouth

20:55

commencement speech and I was curious about

20:57

how after that your of yes I'm

20:59

and during the book and then have

21:02

to talk about it for a walk

21:04

that I'm I'm sure how as guess

21:06

showing up for you now yes or

21:08

no a showing of for you now

21:10

as you move into us. The

21:13

after effects as saying yes are still

21:15

with me completely in all of the

21:17

things I learned. And

21:20

the way I approach things that scare me

21:22

those of all really changed because of that

21:24

experience and as real true way. I

21:27

become comfortable thing uncomfortable. Nope.

21:30

I am not a giant extrovert. I don't want to

21:32

sit in front of giant audiences. And talk but

21:34

now I'm comfortable with as I said

21:36

i'm uncomfortable with it if that makes

21:38

any sense of as interested in it.

21:40

And then now a lot of my.

21:43

Years Yes learning so I learned or

21:45

about saying now. Just. Saying

21:48

now and having no be a complete

21:50

sentence and. Just. Ceiling comfortable

21:52

with that silly no guilt. I

21:55

thought about the your vs moment and thought about how

21:57

people see how to take advantage of that be like.

22:00

I heard you're saying yes, everything. What

22:02

was like the drawback of health saying

22:04

yes to everything? Or had you gone

22:06

to that? You're not telling people like

22:08

hundred ago. I didn't tell people

22:10

but in the book came out. And.

22:13

Literally everybody who ask me anything. The

22:15

first way they started the question was

22:17

i know you're saying yes to everything.

22:20

As if that meant I was guaranteed to say

22:22

yes to things. And. Then I really didn't

22:24

have to learn all the different ways to say no. I

22:27

still say yes to some things, but truly

22:29

like there is no yes to everything anymore.

22:32

That. Became a little overwhelming, although I recommend

22:34

anybody try it at least for a year.

22:37

A. Year of I would think it's worth of

22:39

like I say yes to too much stuff

22:41

sometimes and then I'll I'll get into things

22:43

I'll be like why did I say yes

22:45

to this so like a probably meet a

22:47

year of know a layer of the and

22:49

like sellout. I think the of

22:51

know would do a lotta people some dead right now.

22:53

I agree with that. I

22:56

would love to know a little bit more. Have you

22:58

talked about being an infrared and not like is doing

23:00

press and I? when this came up I was like.

23:03

Oh. We have an hour was

23:05

on the That's really really cool. I

23:07

know that a lot of people feel

23:09

uncomfortable in front of people and getting

23:11

up and speaking in. Most people aren't

23:13

doing press pound but talk to me

23:16

about what that is like. Would bet

23:18

that anxiety are uncomfortable with years with

23:20

with interviews and press. You. For

23:22

me talking to people for before I

23:24

will say this before talking to people

23:26

I didn't know. About. Mean.

23:29

Only. Sells a really stressful experience.

23:31

I would you know my hands

23:33

would be sake a hybrid. somehow

23:36

feel like. Eleven. You

23:38

couldn't and like signals any slain crazily. It

23:40

just wasn't comfortable space for me. I wasn't

23:42

used to it. I've lived my life in

23:45

writing, I live my life and. Bucks

23:47

and. Doing. That with stressful.

23:49

Now Dell and and I don't know what

23:51

this is I will say. I.

23:53

Discovered in this last week when his

23:55

which is the. First time I've been doing

23:57

anything a long time. I'm from

23:59

Philly. Refine. Which.

24:02

I found shocking am I kept waiting for that

24:04

moment when I was gonna go can't do it.

24:06

Shutting down. this is too hard. I'm fine this

24:08

time so see how long that lasts? A

24:10

busy been enjoying talking to, talking to people

24:13

and doing these areas. Lot

24:15

of the first thing I wanted to ask you

24:17

but we started with the clip. I wanted to

24:19

ask you like what's in the room right? like

24:21

what's happening with you right now he said of

24:23

his last week that has been kind of eye

24:25

opening free to to be doing press enough feeling

24:27

uncomfortable, I'm unpack them or debate with what is

24:29

how is it now to be like oh I

24:31

maybe I'm not afraid of this anymore, Maybe I

24:34

don't feel so uncomfortable. When.

24:36

I found his. I'm. Trying. To find aspects of

24:38

it that I enjoy. And. Really?

24:41

So cussing and the aspects that make you

24:43

happier make you feel joy. It's sort of

24:45

counteracts minute some yes, it'll nine years else.

24:47

it counteracts all of that panic and fear

24:49

for me and lot of ways to really

24:51

just focus on. you know, The

24:53

conversation? Not. Am I doing

24:55

this family which is a lot of at it was a

24:57

lot of self criticism. Diana my head. I.

25:00

Remember learning that like public speaking was a

25:02

number one fear that people have and ceiling

25:04

really unclear about why. That was because I

25:06

was a kid who always wanted to get

25:08

up and speak in class an answer the

25:10

question him all of that kind of stuff

25:12

and so now when I work with people

25:14

who are learning to do public speaking word

25:16

media training as of like that is interesting

25:18

to me to see like the different places

25:20

that that comes from right some of it

25:22

is I was scared a class of of

25:24

it as I've i've my parents didn't you

25:26

know let me speak up a lot or

25:28

something like that you have an idea of.

25:30

Where that started for? you have like no one in it

25:32

to get up in front of books. You. Know

25:34

I have a very. Large.

25:36

And very verbose in Harlem loud they

25:39

wouldn't like that's a very large and

25:41

very verbal family. And the youngest

25:43

is six. By terrorists l are very

25:45

engaged in our our growing. Up

25:47

we had very noisy household where everybody's

25:49

belkin that everybody felt comfortable and I

25:52

did too and the I really did

25:54

I just couldn't translate that outside the

25:56

home. Ill I was always

25:59

like what or. The people mean and

26:01

maybe that's because I honestly had such

26:03

as a comfortable happy like little environment

26:05

to live in that when I stepped

26:07

out of it I just felt uncomfortable.

26:09

But. I think it got worse.

26:12

After. I got as college. In. I

26:14

got out of college and then you're very

26:16

new and unsure in a world in which

26:18

is was to make your way and I

26:20

was terrible at selling myself. I was terrible

26:22

at the making my way parts and I

26:24

think a lot of it came then when

26:26

I. When. I really had to be out

26:28

in the world. Describing.

26:30

Myself to people being myself or people

26:32

showing people who I was to get

26:34

a job. It was just painful. How

26:37

did you get through that? Like how to do?

26:39

But where are you telling yourself from. Because.

26:41

You have message for that I hope mean it was

26:44

painful for me I know is painful for them Mean

26:46

people have worked with later were like. But.

26:50

For. Me. I think I just what was

26:52

lucky for me is that. In.

26:54

Order to do a job as a writer,

26:56

I had to provide them with something I'd

26:58

written. So. In a way that sort. Of

27:01

saved me from. You know I have

27:03

these meetings and they'd be terrible but

27:05

they read the script with see what

27:07

they're Really helps me because I couldn't.

27:09

Pitch a story to anybody to save my life.

27:12

And I I've the stress was just too much.

27:16

I'm. Guessing that pitching stories now was

27:18

a lot easier. I

27:20

don't have to pitch anymore. It's

27:22

fact that that's the beautiful thing that's come. Out

27:24

of this is now in a place where I don't

27:26

have to do that anymore because. In.

27:29

Truly In the beginning, ipads Grey's Anatomy by

27:31

with a paper in front of my face.

27:33

Reading. Aloud in a month and a

27:35

monotone and if anybody interrupted and with a

27:38

question I had to start. Back over again

27:40

at the beginning. I get

27:42

was that bad and my hands would be

27:44

shaking and I be sweating and it was

27:46

too bad. So not putting any anymore as

27:48

one of the things that I feel is

27:50

on the best gifts I've been given. I've

27:53

heard he talked about having an idea and

27:55

like even if you're not preaching it's what

27:57

network the like, taking it to people and

27:59

like being. The about what the questions were

28:01

that they'd have about it or in are

28:03

trying to figure out what was working or

28:05

what was a lie. You're not pitching to

28:07

network now and like to have a lot

28:09

more control as your even like pitching ideas

28:11

to friends or people who might be interested

28:14

in watching these kinds of things. Does that

28:16

feel different for you know Islam? Set.

28:18

Definitely feels different but also their

28:21

friends so I have the advantage

28:23

as. They're not doing horrible things

28:25

about me while I'm talking or whatever it is and

28:27

believing in my head. What's. Nice

28:29

is is that I don't necessarily pitiful

28:31

idea. I'll say I'm thinking about writing.

28:33

Bottled wine. I'll try to tell some facts about

28:36

it. The more facts I can tell the more

28:38

I know I'm interested in it in a way

28:40

that I didn't know before. It's and the way

28:42

they react even. If it's that nice smile

28:44

that says that seems great, I know whether

28:46

it's good or bad. It really

28:48

helps me to say something to other people and

28:51

then watch them take it in. Him.

28:55

I feel like watching people take it

28:57

in. Your content is. It's

28:59

a mere have been nerve wracking like. I

29:03

don't want as I don't want to work and a

29:05

one eight like? it's very anxiety inducing actually. But do

29:07

you feel that same kind of thing now and people

29:09

are watching what you've created? Since you've been doing it

29:11

for so long, you. Know.

29:15

And I don't necessarily. Watts.

29:17

Lot of people. That's what I created

29:19

I that sounds nothing like, it's not

29:22

like I stand on the audience's take

29:24

it and or even at discriminates. But

29:26

my oldest sister to is a person.

29:28

Men are said yes the best buy.

29:30

My oldest sister is the person for

29:32

him. Every show I've ever made I've

29:35

shown her first. Because.

29:37

She. And them have. Laughed about

29:40

how same as I am or what I've been

29:42

doing. she doesn't find me important and all. But

29:44

she also has this weird ability to watch

29:47

his show. And from watching her, I know

29:49

exactly where the problem plants are. I know

29:51

exactly if it's. Going to Successful or not

29:53

and she's not afraid to criticize in any

29:55

way, shape or form. So my older sister,

29:57

Laura is my best critic at this point.

30:00

Whoa! One of the things I was thinking about

30:03

with you as as I had line of said

30:05

you're the first woman to create three shows with

30:07

one hundred episodes which was there a pretty. Phenomenal.

30:09

Moment in History am and I'm.

30:12

As you're saying like, there are moments when

30:14

you can tell if it's gonna work or

30:16

not depending on how your sisters responding. I'm

30:18

like whoa, What didn't work Like what? it?

30:20

What? What is in Hennig. I talked to

30:22

me about a moment when it it didn't

30:24

really work. Any. I'm

30:26

lucky in that all the says that I've read so far

30:28

have work that. I per se. predators,

30:30

She's really harsh. But

30:33

as have been like working

30:35

on. It at it like like a final

30:37

edit something before it done and ready to

30:39

give to the studio, the network, the public.

30:42

I was so heard those things and silt so

30:44

me very clear says I didn't understand any of

30:46

what happened here that didn't make any sense to

30:48

me and I will go back and make changes

30:50

based on that. I said

30:52

be saying that. Navajo now I'm a

30:54

i'm gonna I'm going to make sure

30:56

that we send the sea or sisters

30:59

was the for like I when you're

31:01

getting that feedback is like this did

31:03

it make sense and am I didn't

31:05

understand that. I feel like sometimes for

31:07

for riders and creators they can take

31:09

that really personally. by i know that

31:11

this been your sister I would imagine

31:13

that you don't take it as personally

31:15

talk to me about taking notes of

31:17

feedback so he mean from other people

31:19

other than my sister's both actually am.

31:21

From her it's fine. cheeses, brutal

31:23

this everybody. You know in in terms

31:26

of like so she's watching so see, seen like

31:28

see will tell it like it is l She's

31:30

like that. This is is more for me and

31:32

I want to watch it and she's very much

31:34

in line with what other people want to watch.

31:36

I signed. For other places,

31:39

I really believe that there's value

31:41

in a note. The know itself

31:43

might be wrong, but it does

31:45

signal that. There's. Some misunderstanding somewhere that

31:47

something could be clearer that maybe some

31:49

look at a different direction. I

31:51

don't take notes that tell. Me: how to

31:53

fix things by do really taken when

31:55

someone says this is confusing for us

31:58

or is this is the care. As

32:00

to be because we see this. Hang

32:04

out there a little bit more about

32:06

taking notes am that. Not I've

32:08

not heard anyone phrase it that way

32:10

of like I don't take notes on

32:12

what to do but more so kind

32:14

of hearing like what issues are rising?

32:16

that's that's intriguing. And

32:19

it for me, it's Don't walked into

32:21

my office and hand Means or Solutions.

32:23

I just need to know what what the problems

32:25

aren't because. Recreating. It and

32:28

fixing the solutions is a creative job and

32:30

that's my job, not. You. Know some

32:32

executives shop. And to people at

32:34

Netflix had been really respectful of that. And

32:36

there was a time when I was in doing

32:38

network television where I just. Didn't take any notes at

32:40

all. I just was like I. Am not

32:43

reading them. They're not coming into my

32:45

email box and that. Not

32:47

totally the most mature way to go, but.

32:50

It helps me then and now I'm definitely

32:52

at a place where I feel more open.

32:54

To hearing criticism to understanding why some

32:57

in how working to hear that people

32:59

with site wish I'd done something else.

33:01

I'm fine with that now. Some.

33:04

Began to feel like we spend enough time. Giving.

33:06

Appreciation for for folks like yourself, we

33:08

often to give you as a as

33:11

a writer, an creator and this big

33:13

boss. ah I'm often time but we

33:15

don't often necessarily talk about leadership specifically

33:17

and I'm really curious how you think

33:20

about leadership. We talked about to do

33:22

come in my office with that right

33:24

amount that made me think about you

33:26

as a leader but like how do

33:29

you think about yourself, arm and leadership

33:31

more specifically. Down. Something I

33:33

had to learn. And learn on the

33:35

job really quickly and when I went from

33:37

being. A woman who sat at

33:39

home in her pajamas and wrote movies. To

33:42

been seventy lad. The walked into an office

33:44

and I had three hundred and fifty employees

33:46

suddenly. and I have seven hundred employees And

33:48

that I had a thousand ways. And it's

33:51

ground. So. For. Me, There's a real

33:53

responsibility there and I had to really learn what

33:55

it meant. To. Be a leader. It's

33:57

not just. You know you're in charge. so I

33:59

wanted list. You but really how

34:01

to make. Sure that things like my

34:03

sets were feel comfortable happy places for

34:06

people to be to take an the

34:08

other ideas of writers in the writers'

34:10

room to be of the communicate when

34:12

I was thinking. To a Director

34:14

Tab empower the people around me

34:17

to do their jobs. Instead of

34:19

trying to do them myself. That

34:22

really gives people ownership of what they're doing.

34:24

But I. Worked on that, I learned

34:26

about it. I read a lot of books. I thought

34:28

about it very hard because. Bad.

34:30

Leaders are. Everywhere. And

34:32

I don't mean that the man, but there are

34:34

bad leaders everywhere and are not very many you

34:36

know, especially good leaders. and I wanted to be

34:38

one of the dead ones. How

34:41

did you. Approach that like how

34:43

did you come in? Think it because I

34:45

remember years ago that you have like a

34:48

know or policy right and like you don't

34:50

want people on your sights are on your

34:52

So's That. To have

34:54

reputations for having the good character.

34:56

Good Been to people. How did

34:58

you start approaching Liked your own

35:00

Leadership principles are over the years.

35:03

They grew as I grew and in there were

35:05

I'm sad, made a ton of mistakes as I

35:07

went on, but I was really trying and when

35:09

we reached a point where I. Fully.

35:11

Understood. That. If.

35:14

I'm not unset. And. The

35:16

set still being run badly. That's.

35:18

On me. It's. Not on the

35:20

person who's doing it because those people

35:22

reflect you and you've put them out

35:24

there to be your representative. And if

35:26

they're making. Him. But his lives miserable. You're

35:29

responsible for that. So for me,

35:31

a lot of it was really understanding

35:33

that you both empower people, but also

35:35

film. Watch over people to

35:37

make sure that their. Bill. Conveying

35:40

what you believe not. Giving.

35:42

Lip service to it. He

35:44

got so much more to come with

35:46

Shonda Rhimes Stay with us is bull's

35:48

Eye for Maximum fun.org and Npr. This.

35:51

Message: Cancer meant yes Dancer Acorn Tv

35:54

Acorn T V is brilliant. Stories some

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36:19

Sickly A home or cultures and

36:21

host of the was people assume

36:23

we're podcast. Contrary to the title,

36:25

it is not a podcast. About the

36:27

beard trimmer. Each episode I

36:30

along with a special guest cohost

36:32

i such as one absurd topics

36:34

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36:36

people as a realist soon in

36:38

every Thursday to the podcast as

36:41

dedicated civil being black people feel

36:43

more see here on maximum then.

36:50

It's most I I'm Jessie for our

36:52

guest is Shonda Rhimes. She's being interviewed

36:54

by Jared Hill. Have

36:56

heard you talk about how. How

36:59

cool it was! Arm bar so

37:01

exciting and. May be weird

37:03

to have an idea and then see

37:05

it like happy him at such a

37:07

large scale. Keep talk a little bit

37:09

about. What that feels like to

37:11

be able to have something in your your

37:13

mind and begin to imagine it. And then

37:16

for it though like completely manifests itself in

37:18

front of you. That's.

37:20

Always still magical to me. I mean, it really

37:22

is. The. Set of

37:24

Queen Charlotte was so beautiful and so

37:26

opulent and so much of it was

37:28

built and was there for us. I.

37:31

Never get over the ceiling

37:33

of writing like interior Queens

37:35

Bedroom Day and having them

37:37

build. An. Actual replica of

37:40

Queen Charlotte bedroom. Know those things

37:42

are spectacular to me and very

37:44

exciting. and it's part. Of the sun

37:46

and the magic. I.

37:48

Feel like whenever I've had an

37:50

idea and we brought it to

37:53

fruition, it's always been exciting and

37:55

a little bit miraculous. And it.

37:58

A lot of different kinds of feel. But you

38:00

been doing that now for so

38:02

many years. I'm intrigued that it's

38:05

still feel special on and and

38:07

how do you maintain that. Always

38:10

any. I don't know. I maintain a but I was

38:13

excited when they built me. An alarm for Grey's Anatomy. I

38:15

was excited when they built the an oval. Office I

38:17

played in a lot. I'm when

38:19

they when we did scandal those

38:22

spaces in outstanding inner inner space

38:24

that is. Built. For

38:27

a young, Clean, for instance,

38:29

is really empowering somehow because

38:31

you. Realize that you've made this happen

38:33

and I sort of can never get

38:35

over the idea that I've made this

38:37

happen that I said something and and

38:39

all these people. Brought their artistry

38:42

to bring into ice. I'm. Always

38:44

grateful for that. Yeah, I have

38:46

a friend is an actor who. Was.

38:49

On a network show and talked about

38:51

coming to set and seeing how many

38:53

people there were hanging lights and it

38:55

didn't dividing set and doing props and

38:58

all this and recognizing like it's. How

39:01

much bigger than him it was And

39:03

that's always stayed with me as I'm

39:05

moving to the world and working on

39:07

things. How do you think about You

39:09

know, a being bigger, the new and

39:11

a going out into the world and

39:13

having having value for folks. Well.

39:17

For. Some of em person. Keep saying

39:19

to people in a writer doesn't

39:21

create something that I read. What

39:23

a lovely blueprint and then all

39:25

of these other incredible artisans like

39:27

make it a three. The experience

39:29

for everybody. Like a real experience.

39:31

Be there into it. And

39:34

when I think about that is somehow

39:36

that's more. Magical to me than the fact

39:38

that a bunch of people are going to see

39:40

it. The. Finished products because I'm

39:42

always a not necessarily terrified.

39:44

About that. but I'm trying really

39:47

hard to rein in my. My.

39:49

Feelings about it has as I'm not. Responsible for

39:51

how they feel like I'm not making them feel

39:53

a certain way and I want them to be

39:55

able to see a Harvard. They want to see

39:58

us. As a hard line to walk. You

40:01

were saying how you don't. Feel.

40:03

Responsible for like how people feel and I

40:05

think that such an important. Powerful,

40:07

Piece of it right of being able to understand

40:09

like I'm adam, control how people respond to the

40:11

word that I'm doing and putting it out. I

40:13

feel like a lot of creators are often worried

40:15

about what people are going to think, how people

40:17

are going to say, where people are going to

40:19

save, what the responses gonna be. A Have

40:22

you always been that way or that? have a place that

40:24

you grown to. I'm

40:26

deathly not always been that way. As a

40:28

certain point it became really clear to me

40:30

that when you believe that the things people

40:32

have to say about you. And. Your also

40:34

obligated to bring the bad things they say you're

40:36

putting too much weight on that and I wasn't

40:39

willing to put that much weight on the bad

40:41

things people had to say. and for a long

40:43

time I felt like I hadn't. Made

40:46

it like I was still climbing and trying

40:48

and but made me really worried about other

40:50

people's opinions and and a certain point as

40:52

sort of decided i'm okay idea I no

40:55

longer need to worry about those things. I'm

40:58

curious how you think about. The

41:01

history that is. You write the

41:03

fact that you exist and have

41:05

made history in the ways that

41:07

you have an had such a

41:09

thumb print on so much of

41:11

the world. How do you. Even.

41:14

Begin to start to think about them. As

41:18

make a as a sly you're asking the question

41:20

because. It's so. Classes and

41:22

right? How. Will you be perceived? You

41:24

know we're so now. What kind of footprint? Have

41:26

you last? I cannot begin to

41:28

answer that question. I'm not. In.

41:31

A place where I want to spend time

41:33

examining. Whatever. The legacy

41:36

is I'm at times still.

41:38

Ride and still creating and still crazy to

41:40

me that I'm now the oh gee, you

41:42

know so runner here. but. It's

41:46

amazes me but I do feel

41:48

comfortable enough in my space to

41:50

keep going and I says have

41:52

reached a really wonderful place where

41:54

there's no fear and creating at

41:56

all like my creativity just feels

41:58

like it can go. Have

42:00

to spend time being afraid as how to be

42:02

perceived or whether or not the want to make

42:04

it so. To me, I'm just. I'm still make

42:06

instance. There's. No

42:09

fear in the creativity at all.

42:12

I see like I've reached a point where I

42:14

don't have to be afraid. Of.

42:16

Making a mistake. As soon

42:19

as. I have had a place where making

42:21

a mistake would be completely fine for me because

42:23

it that south going to define me. Know.

42:25

There was a period of time when your ear

42:28

the first black woman this the first black on

42:30

that said it's. It's stressful. Like Europe,

42:32

you feel like you have to. Be.

42:35

Perfect to a certain extent. And.

42:37

Now I feel like okay. I was

42:39

inducted into the Television Academy. Hall of

42:41

Fame that's not a brag, but by

42:43

Oprah, Winfrey and. That was the moment about

42:46

the say the team years into my career

42:48

where I started to see like okay you

42:50

can relax now is not that long ago.

42:53

But. When over twelve year good ice you think

42:55

you're good. Thank

42:59

you so much Sounder We really appreciate your time today.

43:01

Queen Charlotte is an exciting new a show that's going

43:03

to be out for us to be able to kind

43:05

of indulge in and sink rt them to. So thank

43:08

you for a your times that I think you have

43:10

been to Talk to him. Shonda

43:12

Rhimes. As we said, you

43:14

can catch the latest season of

43:16

Bridget and now on Netflix. Or

43:18

thanks to our correspondent Jarrett Hill

43:21

for talking with Shonda last year,

43:23

along with his friend Trade L.

43:25

Anderson, Gerrit Cole wrote Historically Black

43:27

Freezes Stripper. As

43:32

the end of another episode, a Bull's eye.

43:34

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43:45

from my friend Mario Reyes worked on the

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