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1:00

you get going. Hello

1:17

and welcome to Business Matters here on the

1:19

BBC World Service. I'm Rahul Tandon, plenty coming

1:21

up on the program. We

1:24

will ask in fact, is there or

1:26

should there be a global wealth tax,

1:28

particularly on billionaires? And we have

1:30

a fascinating interview with an economic advisor

1:32

to Donald Trump lifting the lid on

1:34

some of the economic plans that we

1:36

might see if Trump returns to the

1:39

American presidency. We're going to

1:41

see a massive increase in American energy output

1:43

under Trump. We're going to use our oil

1:45

or gas or coal or nuclear power. And

1:47

we think we can bring the

1:49

price of gasoline at the pump down to

1:52

less than $2 a gallon. Interesting

1:54

to hear from him ahead of the

1:56

first presidential debate, which of course takes

1:59

place this week. week and you dread

2:01

company team building days while we look

2:03

at an idea which uses the ever

2:05

popular genre of country music to

2:07

inspire staff, someone we never need to inspire.

2:10

To stay awake on this programme is

2:12

Rebecca Chung-Wilkins who's joining us from Hong

2:14

Kong. She is Bloomberg's senior

2:16

Asia correspondent and busy

2:19

as always. Rebecca, I was just before

2:21

the programme reading your piece on Gwan

2:23

Dong which many people will know about,

2:26

will know as the factory of the world and

2:29

it was a bit of a depressing read I want

2:31

to say. Yes,

2:34

really interesting. My colleagues and I

2:36

writing about Gwan Dong and

2:38

some of the problems that people are

2:40

feeling there, really sort of feeling the

2:43

brunt of the economic slowdown. Now Gwan

2:45

Dong has once called the world's factory,

2:47

experiencing all sorts of slowdowns, for example

2:49

in its tech sector in

2:51

the city of Shenzhen where so many

2:53

people, millions of young people have moved

2:55

to find jobs but now sort of

2:57

worried endlessly about job

3:00

cuts or job losses coming down the

3:02

line and really

3:05

sort of reconsidering what their

3:07

future looks like as we enter a

3:09

slower period of growth. We don't normally

3:11

tell people to move away from the BBC's excellent

3:13

website but if you do want to read something that

3:15

gives you a bit of an insight into what's happening

3:18

in China do go and

3:20

read Rebecca's piece. We also have Takara

3:22

Small, Toronto based technology

3:24

journalist but Takara, I was

3:26

reading these notes about you and

3:29

not only now a technology journalist but

3:31

also a farmer. Yes,

3:36

I've decided to broaden

3:38

my hobbies and start farming.

3:40

It's an interesting journey.

3:44

What are you farming? So

3:46

fruits and vegetables right now and then moving

3:49

on from there. I decided I cannot spend

3:51

my entire life in front of a laptop.

3:53

I need to do something else. We

3:56

will on this programme bring you now

3:58

regular updates on the farming. through here,

4:00

up to Cara's Mall, and we

4:02

are wondering whether to call it Toronto-based

4:04

farmer and technology, or the other way

4:06

around. We're going to try and work it out and

4:09

come to you, plenty to come from those two during the

4:11

start of the programme, but we, during

4:14

the course of the programme, but we're going to start

4:16

with the World Service has been talking a lot

4:18

about this story over the past 24 hours and

4:20

will continue to do so. Those are the events

4:22

in Kenya where there have been more protests against

4:25

the unpopular finance bill, which

4:28

includes several tax rises. It's

4:31

a country that is facing a huge

4:33

economic crisis. It's heavily in debt and

4:35

inflation has been high. That's led to

4:37

growing anger and thousands of

4:39

people took to the streets across the

4:41

country on Tuesday, including

4:43

in the capital, Nairobi. At

4:52

least five people are reported to have been

4:54

shot dead and many more injured in a

4:56

televised address to the nation. The Kenyan president,

4:59

Mr Ruto, said the demonstrations have

5:01

been hijacked by dangerous criminals. Today's

5:04

events mark a

5:06

critical turning point on how we

5:08

respond to grave threats to our

5:12

national security. I assure

5:14

the nation that the government

5:16

has mobilised all resources at

5:19

the nation's disposal to ensure

5:21

that a situation of this

5:23

nature will not remain

5:26

in the country again. The

5:29

army has been deployed now in

5:31

some parts of the country following that

5:33

speech by the president. Amongst

5:36

the protesters today in Nairobi was

5:38

the British Kenyan activist, Honor Obama.

5:40

She's the half sister of former

5:42

US President Barack Obama. The

5:44

young people say they still want to make

5:46

their voices heard. They're coming out to have

5:49

you listen to them. They're walking on foot

5:51

carrying our flag and

5:54

banners, paper, and we're

5:56

sending the army, we're sending the

5:58

police, and why is it so important to we're sending the

6:00

army because we sent the police, the police

6:03

threw tear gas at them, the police shot

6:05

at them and still they walked. And

6:08

still they walked. And now we're sending the

6:10

army. So now where we just got our

6:12

eyes burned and our chest congested, what is

6:14

going to happen to us if we walk

6:17

again? Are you going to gun

6:19

us down? Are you going to gun those children down?

6:22

And the problem is that

6:24

there are so many of them.

6:26

And at the moment I saw

6:28

posters that said we are no

6:30

longer afraid. We

6:33

are no longer afraid. And another

6:35

one said I have nothing to lose. We

6:39

wanted to hear from people within the business

6:41

community who have also been out on the

6:43

street. Wanchiyanu Mutai is the

6:46

global communications manager at Ashoka, a

6:48

social enterprise based in Nairobi. It

6:51

has gotten to a point where

6:53

everybody is feeling aggrieved. Now what

6:55

we are calling for is accountability

6:57

on the government's part. We need

6:59

all these corruption to stop. We

7:02

are really tired of the spending

7:04

problems that the government has. Like

7:06

recently the president has

7:08

been taking numerous trips abroad, but

7:10

the health services here are suffering.

7:13

Our teachers are calling for pay.

7:15

The schools are not funded, but

7:17

politicians have the money to fly

7:19

out, not just themselves, but also

7:21

their families. We have a problem. Also

7:24

out on the streets was Felix

7:27

Ochoaiga, the CEO of Hekope. An

7:29

angry nation, tired citizens, citizens

7:32

who are willing to risk it all to get

7:34

their country back. We actually don't have a

7:36

problem with paying taxes. What we are interested

7:38

in is that is this money

7:41

being used for the right reasons. But

7:43

what makes this worse is rampant taxes.

7:45

It says too much. Enough is enough.

7:49

Let's look at the wider economic

7:51

problems facing Kenya. Let's

7:53

start by asking how big is its debt?

7:55

That's a question I put to Professor John

7:57

Ambuku. Professor of Economics at Weber State University.

8:00

University in Utah and the United States is

8:02

an expert on the Kenyan economy. The

8:05

country has a very significant amount of

8:07

debt, depending on who you ask, about

8:09

$82 billion,

8:11

$45.5 billion of which is an

8:13

external debt. Out of that external

8:16

debt, about $4.4 billion

8:18

is with the IMF, and the IMF

8:20

is putting conditionalities on Kenya that are

8:23

making it very difficult for the government.

8:25

When you have that kind of debt

8:27

as a country, you have to face

8:29

debt service. You have to generate enough

8:32

revenues locally to be able to

8:34

service the debt and then

8:36

still perform as a government.

8:38

And for a developing country

8:40

like Kenya, where you face

8:42

a significant level of poverty,

8:44

you have to provide services

8:46

like education, food assistance

8:48

to the poor. Does the government

8:52

have any other option? Air under pressure

8:54

from global financial bodies like the International

8:56

Monetary Fund, who give them money to

8:59

keep going, but only if they do

9:01

certain things? The traditional solution for a

9:03

situation like this would be to improve

9:06

the functioning of the local economy

9:08

so that you can generate more

9:10

resources locally, especially with respect to

9:13

exports. And Kenya has been a

9:15

very good exporter. Can I ask

9:17

you about organizations like the International

9:19

Monetary Fund? Many of the protesters

9:21

are angry at organizations like that.

9:24

Are they part of the problem

9:26

in the conditions that they put on

9:29

economies like Kenya to

9:31

get money? It is not

9:33

appropriate for us to blame

9:35

the International Monetary Fund completely,

9:38

but we have to keep in

9:40

mind the government of Kenya also

9:43

has a part to play in what

9:45

is happening domestically.

9:47

The International Monetary Fund did

9:49

not force Kenya to accept

9:51

the terms of the border

9:54

week. And so the people at the

9:56

IMF do not have the power to

9:58

solve the problem. simply wipe out

10:00

the debt that Kenya owes to them.

10:03

If Kenya is willing to go back

10:05

to the International Monetary Fund and try

10:07

to renegotiate the terms of the debt,

10:10

they may be able to gain

10:13

some relief. Violence is not going to solve

10:15

the problem. It's only going to make things

10:17

worse. WESLEY THOMAS-JONES Rebecca, interesting to

10:19

hear from the professor there. And I think we

10:22

have to keep reminding people of

10:24

this point because a lot

10:26

of countries have debt. It's harder for

10:28

emerging economies. It's even harder at the

10:30

moment because we've seen over the last

10:32

couple of years those interest rates continuing

10:34

to rise. So servicing that debt is

10:36

becoming very expensive for them. WESLEY

10:39

THOMAS-JONES Yes, I think that is

10:41

absolutely key. And what is interesting

10:43

is that for the large part,

10:45

for the last 50 years, a

10:47

lot of the debt that the

10:49

IMF has lent out to developing,

10:51

so-called developing and low income nations,

10:53

has actually been under a system

10:55

of quite loose monetary conditions. And

10:57

so borrowing costs have tended to

10:59

be quite low. And as

11:02

those borrowing costs have come up, and

11:04

in order to take advantage of new

11:06

relationships, so China, for example, often here

11:09

is a popular lender as well,

11:12

countries have sought to diversify that

11:15

lending pool. But what that

11:17

has meant now is that as these

11:19

interest rates come up, and as countries

11:22

are dealing with quite complex socioeconomic conditions

11:24

on the ground, they're having to repay

11:26

these heavy debt burdens. It's also more

11:28

complicated to restructure them because to really

11:31

give these sort of restructurings and these

11:33

payment plans a fighting chance, you need

11:35

quite a comprehensive look that takes all

11:39

of the debt into account. So for

11:41

example, all these individual bilateral loans with

11:43

Chinese and other lenders, but as well

11:45

as sort of IMF loans, which, as

11:47

you mentioned, come with these very specific

11:49

conditions that need to be continued to

11:51

met. They're not just about sort of

11:53

servicing your interest on time. Yeah,

11:55

that is true. And that is why sometimes we see

11:57

the ends of subsidies then we saw that with fueling.

12:00

in Pakistan as they're making deals with

12:02

the IMF. When it comes to China,

12:05

are the conditions the same as

12:07

what countries would have to deal

12:09

with the IMF, or are they

12:11

slightly different? Well, there's

12:13

been a lot of research and concern about

12:15

this. The US and some other countries have

12:20

really criticized Chinese lending practices

12:23

saying they're opaque, saying that

12:25

they are perhaps sometimes unreasonably

12:27

high in their demands, and

12:29

also that the governance of

12:32

projects, for example, often based around

12:35

infrastructure projects, is quite low. But

12:37

actually, sort of Deborah Bauterman, among

12:39

other academics, have suggested that, you

12:42

know, that may be an exaggeration, and

12:44

that actually they do provide a pretty

12:46

crucial element of funding to countries that

12:49

otherwise would not actually be able to

12:51

access funding, to, for example, build

12:54

a dam or other forms of green

12:56

technologies, which, you know, in

12:58

the ideal scenario, are sustainable and

13:00

help a sustained economy for the

13:03

future. But it is a really

13:05

controversial topic still today. It

13:07

certainly is. There is a lot of debate about

13:09

it. And China clearly, one of the countries that

13:11

Kenya owns quite a lot of money to, the

13:14

moment interest rates are such an interesting issue,

13:17

aren't they, Takara? I remember on this program a few

13:19

weeks ago, talking about

13:21

interest rates coming down in Canada. That

13:23

looked like the end of inflation. Everything

13:25

looked rosy. Is that still the picture?

13:29

Unfortunately, it isn't. Interest

13:31

rates did come down very slightly. But then

13:34

we saw inflation come roaring back as well.

13:36

So, you know, I think the, you know,

13:38

years of very low inflation that we saw

13:41

in Canada, and to be honest, in the

13:43

US, may be a bygone area, at least

13:45

for the next decade or so.

13:47

And I want to add

13:49

that what was said before about in

13:51

Kenya being a very complex issue, as

13:54

a tech reporter, one of the interesting

13:56

things that I think a lot of

13:58

people fail to grasp is that music

24:00

crashing and something else. Listen, we're going

24:02

to be back with the news very,

24:04

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24:23

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24:25

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24:27

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24:29

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24:32

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greenlight.com/ACAST. Welcome

25:17

back to Business Madness here

25:20

on the BBC World Service

25:22

Plenty to come up in

25:24

the second half of

25:27

the programme. We have Rebecca Chung-Wilkins

25:29

who is in Hong Kong, Bloomberg

25:31

Senior Asia correspondent, and Takara, a

25:33

small A Toronto based technology journalist,

25:35

and as we have learned today,

25:37

also a now, she is a

25:39

farmer as well. Now later this

25:41

week we'll have the first presidential debate in

25:44

the United States. President Biden

25:46

and former President Trump will outline their plans

25:48

to grow the world's largest economy. It's going

25:50

to be a key issue in

25:53

that election. We wanted to give

25:55

you a sense of what Donald

25:57

Trump's economic vision is. So, I've

25:59

been speaking to Stephen Moore. A

26:01

senior visiting fellow in economics at

26:03

the Heritage Foundation and an informal

26:05

advisor to Donald Trump. He's also

26:07

the author of Trumponomics inside America's

26:09

first plan to revive our economy.

26:12

What Donald Trump wants to do is

26:15

reignite the American economy in a way

26:17

that we haven't seen in the last

26:19

few years. Now, we've had very high

26:22

inflation. We've had very high

26:24

interest rates. We've had middle-income families

26:26

struggling. And so I think what

26:28

Trump wants to do more than

26:30

anything else is really lift the

26:33

boats of the people in the middle. They're the

26:35

people who have suffered the most under Biden's

26:37

policies. They're the ones who

26:39

have really gotten crushed under the inflation.

26:42

And so the first order of business

26:44

will be to try to

26:46

help middle-class Americans by bringing

26:49

down inflation, by reducing their

26:52

taxes, by providing

26:54

more high-paying jobs, and

26:57

bringing businesses back to the United States. Inflation

27:00

is coming down now, isn't it? The rate

27:02

of inflation is coming down. President

27:04

Biden had a series of factors to

27:07

deal with, which meant it wasn't just

27:09

the U.S., just about every major economy

27:11

suffered from inflation. True, but let's

27:13

be very clear about it. What caused the

27:15

massive inflation, I mean, there's no doubt in

27:17

my mind about this, I think most Americans

27:19

agree, is that Joe Biden came into the

27:22

office and spent $4 trillion

27:24

that we didn't have on a massive

27:26

spending spree that did great

27:29

damage to the American economy and

27:31

has done so much damage to

27:33

the nation's finances that it will

27:35

be decades and decades before we

27:37

can undo the damage that Biden

27:39

has done to our country's finances.

27:41

So the inflation didn't happen by

27:43

accident. It happened as a direct

27:45

result of the massive spending spree

27:47

that America couldn't afford. Well,

27:49

if you look at that spending

27:52

spree, many countries had to do

27:54

that because these were extraordinary circumstances,

27:56

Covid, people not going to work

27:58

for long periods of time. people took measures

28:00

that we haven't seen before. Donald Trump would

28:02

have had to do the same, wouldn't

28:04

he? Well, actually, the problem with that

28:07

narrative is that when Trump left office

28:09

a year into COVID, the

28:11

inflation rate was 1.5%. So

28:13

in 18 months, somehow Joe Biden took our

28:16

inflation rate from 1.5% to 9.1%, the highest

28:18

it had been in 30 years. We

28:23

want to restore fiscal integrity and

28:25

we want to restore a situation

28:28

where prices are stable. And

28:31

Donald Trump has a plan to do that. He

28:33

wants to do it through the supply side of

28:36

the economy, increase the production of

28:38

goods and services. One

28:40

really is easy area where

28:42

we can reduce prices that

28:44

I think will happen almost immediately is

28:46

we're going to see a massive increase

28:49

in American energy output under Trump. We're

28:51

gonna use our oil or gas or

28:53

coal or nuclear power. And we think

28:55

we can bring the price of

28:57

gasoline at the pump down to less than

28:59

$2 a gallon. Can

29:01

I ask you on those price increases?

29:04

China, the US buys so much

29:06

from China. Wouldn't it

29:08

be better for everybody if you didn't

29:10

have such high tariffs on Chinese products

29:13

coming in that would make a lot

29:15

of goods cheaper for Americans? Well, I

29:17

think you make a good point. Tariffs

29:19

are consumption taxes and this would make

29:21

prices higher on imported goods

29:23

from China, no question about it. On

29:25

the other hand, China is an

29:27

enemy and an adversary of the United States.

29:30

They are dangerous country. Can I just stop

29:32

you there? Is that how you see them

29:34

directly as an enemy? Are

29:36

you talking politically, economically? I

29:38

think both with respect to

29:40

economically, they don't play by the

29:43

rules. They are involved in predatory

29:45

trade practices. And even

29:47

more so, we regard them as a

29:49

great national security threat to the United

29:51

States and the world. And so I

29:54

think there's a special, look, I'm a free

29:56

trade person, but when it comes to China,

29:58

I think you've got a special case. there. And

30:00

by the way, the view that I'm

30:02

expressing is really the view of the

30:05

vast majority of Americans. There's one issue

30:07

in a very divided country, the United

30:09

States, that almost all Americans agree on,

30:11

and that is that China is a

30:13

big problem for the United States of

30:15

America and for the world. And so

30:17

I think in that regard, there's a

30:20

lot of support from both parties

30:22

for getting very tough on China with

30:24

terrorists. But let's be very specific on

30:26

China here, President Biden, and you're right,

30:29

President Biden has a similar strategy when

30:31

it comes to China. He recently put

30:33

tariffs on Chinese EVs.

30:35

If the Trump administration comes

30:37

back to power, what

30:39

level of tariffs will we see on Chinese

30:41

products? We've had these figures bandied around of

30:43

around an increase of 100% on

30:46

all Chinese products coming in. Is that the

30:48

conversation you're having at the moment? No,

30:50

I think that what Trump has been saying

30:52

is 50% or 60% terrorists. But

30:56

here's the thing about Trump. I want

30:58

to make sure your audience understands this. Trump

31:01

has used tariffs very

31:03

effectively in the four years that he

31:05

was president as a weapon, as a

31:07

weapon to get other countries to do

31:11

what is in America's interests. And we've seen that

31:13

many times. We've seen that with the Europeans and

31:15

getting them to pay their NATO dues and so

31:17

on. And so what Trump would say is,

31:19

I am going to use

31:21

tariffs as a means to force

31:23

other countries, specifically China in a

31:26

sense, to stop their predatory trade

31:28

practices, to play by the rules,

31:31

and to stop their aggressive military tactics.

31:33

Is there a danger under a Trump

31:35

administration that we move to a global

31:37

trade war? Because the level of tariffs

31:40

you're putting in place is higher than

31:42

what President Biden may put in place?

31:45

Is there a danger of that? Yes. But

31:47

I think what Trump would say, and

31:49

I agree with him on this, is

31:52

that if we can't trade with China,

31:55

we sneeze. If they can't trade with

31:57

us, they catch pneumonia. In other words,

31:59

the Chinese Chinese economy cannot prosper

32:01

without access to American markets. And

32:03

so they have much, much more

32:06

to lose than we do. And

32:08

that's exactly the leverage point that

32:10

Trump is making. Stephen

32:12

Moore then, after we did that interview, 16 Nobel

32:15

Prize winning economists wrote an open

32:17

letter warning that the second Trump

32:19

administration would reignite

32:21

inflation. Rebecca, we've

32:24

had some pretty strong comments

32:26

from the Chinese premier, have waves warned

32:28

of negative consequences for the world of

32:30

nations part ways economically. Do

32:32

you think the Chinese would be

32:35

even more worried with a Trump

32:37

administration than a Biden administration? Well,

32:40

we did have a recent report from

32:42

one of my colleagues saying that the

32:45

US intelligence point of view, views

32:48

that the Chinese are basically kind of

32:50

worried about both, neither are particularly good

32:52

options. I spoke to

32:54

one advisor to Beijing who said that,

32:56

yes, both of them aren't necessarily good

32:59

for China, but I think the element

33:01

with Biden is that he's somewhat more

33:03

predictable. And it's that

33:05

unpredictability for Trump that is a

33:07

bit of a concern. It

33:10

is worth saying that to

33:12

your interviewees point, actually, Trump

33:15

introduced a whole series of

33:17

tariffs and various curbs on

33:20

Chinese trade. And

33:22

in his administration, Biden has maintained all

33:24

of those and expanded the scope of

33:26

all of those. So in

33:28

some ways, it has been sort

33:31

of continuity with the previous administration

33:33

and building on it. Of

33:36

course, he has stopped far short of

33:38

what Trump is now potentially predicting, as you

33:40

mentioned, this sort of potential 60% tariff

33:44

on all US imports. But

33:46

as you say, to the broader plan,

33:49

we had that letter from those 16

33:51

Nobel prize winning economists saying

33:54

that various parts of the plan, so different elements that they've

33:56

focused on, should suggest that the US is not going to

33:59

be a good option. that they could also sort

34:01

of increase inflation too.

34:04

Yep, let us see what happens. The

34:07

whole EV thing is interesting, isn't

34:09

it, Takara? And the Canadian finance

34:11

minister, Christia Freeland, has now announced

34:13

the start of a 30-day public

34:16

consultation period, which could

34:18

lead to tariffs on Chinese EVs in

34:20

Canada. Yes, and I

34:22

mean, anyone who's been covering the story

34:24

in the US, this comes as no

34:26

shock. Canada has invested a

34:28

lot of money to set up factories,

34:31

to support EV electric vehicles

34:33

across the country with

34:36

rebates, et cetera. So the

34:39

tariffs is in no way a shock,

34:41

especially considering strong partnership with the US.

34:45

I do want to add, though, that it is so interesting,

34:47

because I was talking about the story on the radio this

34:49

morning. And one of the things that jumped out when we

34:51

talk about inflation, not just in the

34:53

US, it's around the world. So I

34:55

think this is a lot about the global

34:57

economy. But is that in the US, a

35:00

JP Morgan analyst called it a selective recession

35:02

we're going through right now because of cost-solving

35:04

and inflation, which means those who are lower

35:06

income are experiencing a very different economy than

35:09

those that are higher

35:11

income and have stock and have

35:13

the liquidity to withstand these

35:16

high prices. And I

35:18

say that because I feel like sometimes we talk

35:20

about inflation, it's just numbers. But for

35:22

many people, it can be the difference between

35:24

eating three meals a day

35:26

and maybe eating one. And a lot

35:28

of the time, when politicians talk about

35:30

inflation with numbers and forget that there

35:33

are very two different economies that play

35:35

in a country. Yeah, that is a big. It

35:38

is one of the big economic trends that we're seeing,

35:40

aren't we, across the world. Carol, your thoughts on this

35:42

one. Volkswagen investing $5 billion to form a joint venture

35:44

with the electric vehicle maker, Rivam, which

35:47

has really struggled that electric vehicle

35:49

maker. But I suppose VW does

35:51

get access to some of its tech. It

35:54

does. It gets access to that valuable

35:56

tech that they didn't have to necessarily

35:58

spend millions of dollars testing. staying,

36:00

going through a lot of the

36:02

rigorous assessments that in the US

36:05

and Canada, regulators require. I also

36:07

think they also see that it's

36:09

a sign that Canadian, not just

36:11

Canadian, federal governments around the world

36:13

are investing in electronic vehicles. That's

36:15

the future, especially with Trump, I

36:18

know he's supportive of drill, baby

36:20

drill, oil, gas, but

36:22

you're seeing more consumers

36:24

choose electronic vehicles. Yeah,

36:26

I want to ask Rebecca about

36:28

this story here because over the past few weeks

36:30

we've heard lots of news headlines like this. Tension

36:36

between China and the Philippines reaching a

36:38

boiling point in the disputed South China.

36:41

The front page of the Financial Times on

36:43

Wednesday has a story about rising tensions between

36:45

China and the Philippines as we heard there.

36:48

The Philippine ambassador to the United States has

36:50

warned of a region-wide conflict over the South

36:52

China reef dispute and this is a dispute

36:54

that is gathering pace, isn't it, Rebecca?

36:58

Yes, absolutely. We have seen more

37:00

of these types of confrontations, essentially,

37:03

Chinese preventing various supply

37:05

missions from the Philippines,

37:07

a part of the

37:11

area called the Sierra Madre. The

37:14

broader picture here, when we think about also

37:16

the why now, why is it now that

37:18

we are seeing this? It's

37:20

really because the Philippines has taken

37:22

a different tack. The Ferdinand Marcos

37:24

has taken a different tack to

37:26

his predecessor, Duterte, moving much closer

37:28

to the US and in some

37:31

ways put China on the back foot. In

37:33

some ways it was a surprise. Duterte had

37:35

grown very close to China. There was some

37:37

expectation that we might have seen a bit

37:39

of continuity with the next

37:42

regime and instead China

37:44

has had to adapt to a

37:46

much more assertive Philippines in the

37:48

South China seas and more broadly

37:51

from a foreign policy point of

37:53

view as well. China

37:55

in its turn has also the ante in its

37:57

turn. tactics

38:00

both on the waters there, but

38:02

also from a rhetorical point of

38:04

view. They said, for example, that

38:07

they have a secret recording of

38:09

an agreement that was decided between

38:11

a Philippines general and

38:13

the Chinese. So both sides

38:15

reaching to other parts of

38:17

their toolkit to have this

38:19

more confrontational relationship over

38:22

what could be another

38:24

flashpoint for Indo-Pacific

38:26

relations, because of course so many of

38:28

these countries are also allies to

38:31

the US. Yeah, a lot of countries

38:33

seeming to have to choose between the

38:35

two great powers of the world, China

38:37

and the US. Let us talk about

38:39

heat waves once again and India, because

38:42

the blistering heat there has affected the

38:44

livelihoods of India's informal workforce, who make

38:46

up a huge percentage of the country's

38:48

economy. Now an organization in India's western

38:51

state of Gujarat is offering women laborers

38:53

a heatwave insurance that pays for days

38:55

when temperatures hit higher thresholds. The BBC's

38:58

Auchana Shukla has this report. With

39:04

her bare hands, Hansa Nadia is

39:06

sifting through piles of trash strewn

39:09

along the roadside. Sweat

39:15

dripping down. It's sweltering

39:18

in Ahmedabad, but Hansa, a

39:20

waste picker, is out working. At

39:23

home, she empties her gun gun. Plastics,

39:26

paper, metal cans. That's

39:28

her collection after six hours run under

39:30

the blazing sun. Last

39:35

month, a heat stroke stole six days of

39:37

work, leaving her weak, she tells me. Her

39:39

monthly income halved to just

39:41

$30. But there's respite. Hansa

39:43

has an insurance for hot

39:45

days. I

39:50

got $14 as insurance money. It helped

39:52

me buy food for my family and

39:54

medicines for myself. I could

39:56

avoid working on days when it was too hot. In

40:00

the local market, roadside vendors are

40:02

hoping to make a sell. It's

40:07

heating 44 degrees Celsius on the scale.

40:10

Blistering heat is putting millions of poor

40:13

Indians at risk. Most

40:15

are part of the country's

40:17

unorganized workforce, doing ad-hoc jobs.

40:19

Their choice, work in unsafe

40:21

conditions or go hungry. Women

40:27

are among the worst affected, especially those on

40:29

meager incomes like 60 to 70 dollars

40:33

a month. And for them, this

40:35

heat insurance has actually come as a

40:37

breather. When

40:40

mercury breaches a threshold, in Ahmedabad it

40:42

is 44 degrees Celsius.

40:44

Those insured get an automatic payment of 4

40:47

dollars a day. The

40:51

payouts are small, but critical even for

40:53

those who work indoors. Sheets

40:56

Sabeera is pasting colourful papers to

40:58

meet kites. She's sweating

41:00

profusely, but cannot use the fan,

41:02

with loads of kite paper sheets

41:04

lying around. I

41:09

get 3 cents per kite, but because of the

41:12

heat I can't sit for long. Have

41:14

made just half the number of kites. The

41:16

insurance money has helped. Sabeera

41:20

continues work, attaching the string to

41:23

the kites. 46,000

41:26

women like her have got paid for the hot

41:28

days insurance. But with

41:30

heat waves becoming more frequent and

41:32

intense, meager payouts may not be

41:34

enough. Anisha

41:39

Muhammad Yunus works with the

41:41

Self-Employed Women's Association, the Ahmedabad

41:44

based trade union that runs

41:46

this novel heat insurance program.

41:49

She says to scale it up, a

41:51

policy push is needed. Can

41:55

heat wave insurance be included in

41:57

the Social Security Act? welfare

42:00

funds for construction workers and salt pan

42:02

workers be redirected to climate support, we

42:04

need to ask these questions and both

42:07

government and private sectors need to partner.

42:09

We could be the first country to

42:11

offer climate cover for informal workers. Outside

42:18

the metal fabrication shop, women are

42:20

beating aluminium sheets to shape them

42:22

into vessels. One

42:25

of them tells

42:27

him, heat or rain, they have to

42:29

work to buy food. For

42:33

these women and many others, it's a

42:35

matter of survival. As

42:37

extreme weather disrupts livelihoods, India's

42:39

informal workforce, crucial for India's

42:41

economy, needs a safety net

42:43

more than ever before. We

42:48

talked so much about the weather,

42:50

so let's get an update from

42:52

Rebecca and Takara and what

42:54

the weather heatwaves have been like in their

42:56

areas. Weather

43:00

has become more extreme here. We don't

43:02

have springs or autumns anymore. We have

43:04

these abrupt transitions into summer. We're about

43:06

30 degrees so far. Rain

43:09

has become less frequent but really heavy. Last

43:11

year we had quite

43:13

frightening floods where the water came up

43:16

about somewhere to my waist in certain

43:18

parts of the city. So quite a

43:20

lot of weariness around that too this

43:22

year. Takara? Yeah,

43:25

I mean it's the same in Canada. We're kind

43:27

of on the tail end of a heat wave

43:29

where we saw temperatures rise to 35, 40

43:32

with the humidity. It's been a

43:34

little bit unbearable to be honest and

43:36

very abrupt. I'll say though that has

43:38

reignited this debate in Canada about whether

43:40

air conditioning is a luxury or a

43:42

necessity because in Canada it's not required.

43:45

There are so many people, so many

43:47

non-profits who have stepped up to try

43:49

and help those that are homeless. Yeah,

43:51

that is a debate that we're seeing in some parts of

43:53

the world, isn't it? Now, as employees, we all love those

43:55

days, don't we, when the bosses take us away and we

43:58

do a bit of a team. building

44:00

exercise, do we really? We call them

44:02

away days here in the UK, two

44:04

words often filled with dread for those

44:06

on the receiving end. But a boss

44:08

in Oregon in the United States was

44:10

determined to break the mold. An avid

44:12

fan of country music, Kyle Morris organised

44:14

an away day in Nashville for the

44:16

18 employees working at his business system

44:18

company, Kick Show. What did he do?

44:20

Well, Kyle's been telling us and also

44:22

telling us that he was worried beforehand

44:24

that people might not like the idea

44:26

that he describes. I would call

44:28

those mandatory fun, right? Mandatory fun is never

44:30

really very fun. But, you know, knowing

44:33

that we're getting our team together, it's an opportunity. That's

44:35

the way I think of it. It's an opportunity. How

44:37

do we make the most of it? Well, we're in

44:39

Nashville, the country music epicenter.

44:41

So let's lean into music a little bit.

44:43

And I've had recommendations to this company, Kid

44:46

Billy, who helped facilitate the process for us

44:48

and heard only great things. They're

44:50

professional songwriters who help famous musicians make songs. They

44:52

can't be bad at it. And so it

44:55

was kind of a no brainer. Many of our employees had

44:57

lots of reservations, but I was really pleasantly surprised at the

44:59

end of it. Dozens of them

45:01

came up to me and said that it exceeded their

45:04

expectations. So I was really looking for something unique, something

45:06

that they would never do normally and get

45:08

them out of their comfort zone a bit. Okay, so let's

45:11

take a little step back and, and

45:13

explain to people what actually happened here. So you

45:15

had some songwriters, you had country music, I suppose

45:17

you don't need to put two and two together.

45:20

Did you get people to try and write

45:22

a song? Because that sounds to me like

45:24

a pretty scary experience. It can be scary.

45:26

Absolutely. And so we at our company, we

45:28

have four core values. And we

45:31

broke into four separate groups, we mixed people

45:33

up. And we had them with the facilitation

45:35

of the songwriter, write a song about each

45:37

of our core values. So one core values,

45:39

own it, one is work together, one is

45:41

keep it simple, one is BU. And so

45:43

our teams each wrote a song about one of

45:45

those core values. And because our

45:47

team has really adopted those core values and lives by

45:49

them every day, it was very natural

45:51

for them to really share words that would turn

45:54

into verses and chords and lyrics that would make

45:56

a song. So it first is a little awkward.

45:58

You got to get people to kind of open

46:00

up a bit, but once it got going, those

46:03

facilitators were actually very fantastic at this. They're professionals

46:05

and they help pull it out of us. They

46:07

don't write the songs for us, they helped us

46:09

write the songs for ourselves. Let's

46:11

hear one of the songs. Let's hear this one

46:14

in which is called Own It. I

46:16

was feeling kind of awkward, cause I thought

46:18

I wanted it. But I took it to

46:20

the sandbox, wrote a license with it. So

46:23

I bought it. Now everyone in my heart likes to

46:25

drive it like they stole it. But it ain't really

46:27

cheap. It didn't sound too bad

46:30

to me in that particular one. Can

46:32

I ask you, you know, when I imagine,

46:35

and I'm just taking my office as an

46:37

example here, if our boss asked us to

46:39

write a song about our office,

46:41

some of it could be quite positive,

46:43

but some of it could be quite

46:45

negative stuff in some of the songs.

46:48

I imagine, I'm not saying we've done it as

46:50

yet. Did that happen with you? Well,

46:53

you know, an open-ended song prompt could be pretty

46:55

tricky. You could end up with some songs that

46:57

you may not like. Our core values

46:59

are very important to our business. And for many businesses,

47:02

core values are just the thing they throw up on

47:04

the wall and no one even cares about it. They

47:06

don't think about it. They don't act like it. For

47:08

us, core values are everything. We

47:10

reference them all the time. Our team uses them

47:12

to help make decisions. You know, how can

47:14

I own this decision? How can I be

47:16

myself? You know, we use them constantly. So

47:18

when we create that framework of your core

47:20

value is keep it simple, write a song

47:22

about it. One of the

47:24

things that keep it simple means to you is different

47:26

than another employee and together those things mesh. And

47:29

it works out. It is a little scary. I was

47:31

on the keep it simple group, but I just knew

47:33

that I trusted in the team and the team trusts

47:36

in each other. And I think a lot of it

47:38

comes down to you have to have that fundamental trust

47:40

for to have success in this. Otherwise, it's

47:42

going to fall flat. You know, for me, part

47:44

of the inspiration for this was I started playing

47:46

music for the first time five years ago. I

47:48

never picked up an instrument. I

47:51

play guitar, I play some piano, I sing and

47:53

I wanted to kind of expose some folks at

47:55

the company to how fun it can be to

47:57

create music. And I've never really written any songs

47:59

myself. So it was fun for me to see

48:01

professionals helping us do this. I learned a

48:04

ton. And so I think it's something

48:06

we're going to be able to lean on in the

48:08

future. You know, every company retreat, we're going to play

48:10

these songs. It's going to be something that we rally

48:12

around. And so hopefully it gives people, you know, the

48:14

itch to dig into music some more. You sort of

48:17

made a company anthem, haven't you? Absolutely. Have you seen

48:19

an improvement? I know it's early, it's only a few

48:21

weeks ago, but do you think it has made a

48:24

difference? The thing that made the biggest difference

48:26

is getting people together, working on something. You

48:28

know, a song was the byproduct, the thing

48:31

that you have kind of forever, but it

48:33

was the experience people have. Does this, does

48:35

this have an help an employee who's great

48:37

stick around for another month or year or

48:39

decade? Like that's the hope is that we're

48:42

building cohesion among our team so that as

48:44

leaders and executives, we can step back and

48:46

let people operate without managers and leaders up

48:48

in their business all the time. It just

48:50

creates cohesion that wouldn't happen naturally. Oregon

49:00

based Kirk Sore. Takara,

49:02

mandatory fun always when you appear

49:04

here on Business Manager. If you enjoy

49:07

it or not. Team

49:09

building. I mean, if you've been to any team

49:11

building experiences that have stuck into your mind as

49:13

thinking this is a dreadful idea. I'm not saying

49:15

that that one is actually sending out to work.

49:19

Nothing as fun as songwriting, maybe

49:22

a stale donut in the break

49:24

room and a pep talk. Nothing

49:26

as extravagant as that. Rebecca.

49:31

I feel somewhat blessed to have escaped a lot of this,

49:33

but Hong Kong is a big

49:35

corporate town, as you imagine, and

49:37

things like karaoke and escape room

49:39

are actually pretty popular with sort

49:41

of corporates here. Do you think

49:43

they work, Rebecca? Do you think it

49:46

does work or just forcing people to

49:48

go off together when

49:50

sometimes it isn't possible to

49:52

build a team because some people just don't

49:54

get on? I

49:56

think part of it is the industry that you're in and I

49:58

sort of suspect that if you're in. something like

50:00

finance where it's relatively competitive and you

50:03

go into an environment where you're doing

50:05

something relatively competitive that actually people do

50:07

get pretty into it. I

50:09

think the other part about Hong Kong

50:11

though is sort of team building, here's

50:14

also about hosting cultures. So a lot

50:16

of it is less about these sort

50:18

of mandatory fund sessions and activities per

50:20

se, but more about socialization, really sort

50:22

of eating and drinking together. And that

50:24

becomes a really key way that people

50:27

sort of build those relationships and

50:29

strengthen those connections outside the office. Takara,

50:32

I've just been thinking now with your

50:34

second career as a farmer, could

50:36

you do some team building by getting people

50:38

to help you on the farm doing something

50:40

or the other bit of digging, getting teams

50:42

up there? I think it could be another

50:45

business idea for you. I think

50:47

you've just created a new business idea for me.

50:49

I don't need to farm for food. I can

50:51

create this as a team building exercise and reap

50:53

the veggie fruit rewards. Are you

50:55

heading to the farm after this program now? Will

50:57

you be up there? Oh,

50:59

tomorrow I will be. Bright and early. How

51:02

early? Oh, we have to be

51:04

there by 5am. I do want

51:06

to emphasize, I'm still a tech journalist through

51:08

and through because we're thinking, how is this

51:10

girl doing? I'm still doing it. This is

51:12

a side hustle that I don't know why

51:14

I'm doing for fun. No space for farms

51:16

in Hong Kong, Rebecca, I presume. But 5 o'clock, start

51:18

for you for a bit of agriculture,

51:20

could you see happening? Never

51:24

on a weekday, possibly on a

51:26

Sunday, if I ever absorb Takara's

51:29

enthusiasm. I'm zest for early mornings,

51:31

maybe. Always brilliant on business matters.

51:33

Rebecca is maybe not going to be so great

51:35

on Takara's farm. That is it for this edition.

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