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The business of biotech is produced by

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LifeScienceConnect and its community

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of learning , solving and sourcing

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resources for biopharma decision

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makers . If you're working on biologics

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process development and manufacturing challenges

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, you need to swing by bioprocessonlinecom

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. If you're trying to stay ahead

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of the Cell or Gene Therapy curve , visit

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cellenginecom . When it's time

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to map out your clinical course , let

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if optimizing outsourcing decisions

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is what you're after , check out outsourcepharmacom

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. We're LifeScienceConnect and we're

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here to help . On

0:40

my swing through San Francisco , I had the pleasure

0:42

of sitting down to record episodes with a handful

0:45

of flagship pioneering CEO partners

0:47

, including today's guest Sail

0:49

Biomedicines CEO , dr Guillaume

0:52

Pfefer . You're likely aware

0:54

that Sail was just formed up in Q4 of

0:56

last year , the product of flagships

0:58

decision to merge Senda Bios ciences

1:01

and La Ronde , two of its programmable

1:03

medicine platform companies . What

1:06

you likely haven't heard is the inside story

1:08

and how the merger was executed , how

1:11

the two companies are integrating their talent

1:13

, ip and resources , and

1:15

what Dr Pfefer and team are currently doing

1:17

to take the fruits of the company's platform

1:19

into the clinic . I'm Matt Pillar

1:22

. This is the business of biotech and on

1:24

today's episode we're getting under the hood of

1:26

Cell Biomedicine's with Dr Guillaume

1:28

Pfefer . Let's give it a listen . When

1:30

did you come here from France ?

1:32

23 years ago 23

1:35

years .

1:36

Yeah Well , you're holding on to that accent

1:38

nicely , I know .

1:40

Unfortunately we die with the accent

1:42

, but I decided to become American

1:45

. The kids speak beautiful

1:48

remote accent English , but I would travel

1:50

with my wife with some very big French

1:52

accent .

1:52

Yeah , I know a lot of folks who have come over

1:55

from various places , who

1:57

have lost it over time .

1:59

For some reason it's not in me .

2:01

That's good , hang on to that . I'm

2:06

going to ask you questions about

2:08

you and how you got

2:10

into science and that kind of thing in a bit

2:12

, but I want to start with the

2:14

more recent news . Well

2:17

, we'll start with the Q4 news . So

2:19

in Q4 flagship which , by

2:22

the way , I'm a huge fan of flagship-

2:24

Great . As

2:27

someone who covers the space , it's just such a target

2:29

rich environment and the people are terrific

2:32

, friendly , easy to work with , transparent

2:34

, so good company .

2:36

There's a ton of energy at time in the

2:38

ecosystem and we are a few less

2:40

what it comes to trying to make an impact in this

2:42

world , not only on the F side , but

2:44

probably aware of the sustainability effort we

2:46

are looking to get into

2:49

sustainability of pesticide and pesticide

2:51

and contribute to health

2:54

, and not only human health . Yeah

2:57

, so I'm very excited by how bold

2:59

and why we are in all views of bringing

3:01

science to the benefit of

3:03

humanity and health . So

3:06

it's exciting to be part of the ecosystem

3:08

.

3:08

Certainly , is yeah . So in

3:12

Q4 last year it was Cenda

3:14

and Laurent right , that's right , Mine to form

3:17

cell biomedicine . So let's start there

3:19

. What was the back ?

3:21

story . We were just talking about being bold

3:23

and being science

3:25

and having a fearless

3:27

and big ambition of making

3:30

an impact in humankind

3:32

. We

3:34

have come to the realization of

3:36

being in the field as flagship for quite some

3:39

time . But we are as

3:41

an industry we want to bring

3:43

, of transforming deeply what we can do

3:45

for patients with fully program

3:47

of medicine . If you look at the arc

3:49

of industry , we've been as an industry trying

3:52

to do more . We forgot to raising the productivity

3:54

of our discovery , to development

3:57

, to license product through

4:00

different ways . But last one , we've

4:02

accessed in the genetic codes and building

4:05

companies such as Moderna . That's

4:07

program today , part of medicine

4:10

In the case of Moderna

4:12

and RNA . But you can see over in the

4:14

island . You can mention obviously

4:16

biotech and now Pfizer

4:18

on the mRNA side just announced

4:21

we as a first CRISPR medicine

4:24

on the market , also coming from this era

4:26

of programming molecule . But

4:28

we just cannot program medicine just

4:30

yet . But it's just a matter of time now

4:32

. It's not a matter of if anymore . With

4:35

that context in mind I'm knowing that we've been

4:37

in this biotech industry for

4:39

quite some time and contributing and

4:42

leading some of his transformation we

4:44

come to the realization that

4:46

we had in the portfolio already

4:49

the maturing technology that , if

4:51

combined , could create

4:53

this acceleration into the future

4:55

, into this era of

4:57

program of medicine . And we made a

4:59

bold move to combine two of

5:02

the largest and most promising

5:04

companies around and sender

5:06

biosciences . We decided

5:08

to put it together because they have

5:10

reached the maturity and we thought the

5:13

time had come to play

5:15

a very big move into accelerating our industry

5:18

into the era of program of medicine

5:20

. And I will give you much more of the

5:22

technology of stacking , if you want

5:24

. Or science advance , yeah , we'll get into that

5:26

, into that for sure . But

5:28

maybe one word and

5:30

one sentence more exactly

5:32

summarize the bold ambition

5:35

. Here is vision statement of

5:37

the company that now you

5:39

can appreciate with what I'm

5:41

telling you with regard to this arc

5:43

of the industry that led us to this

5:45

industry

5:48

being at the verge of fully program of medicine . The

5:50

statement for vision is generating

5:53

tomorrow , medicine today , through

5:55

the language of life , and we're seeing medicine

5:58

, not just part of medicine , and

6:00

we're not even exploration , looking

6:02

at discovering , but generating

6:05

. Give you a sense of productivity

6:08

, predictability , acceleration

6:11

of number of programs that can move

6:13

and actually and we're very excited

6:15

diversity of disease that

6:17

can get into down the road

6:19

. So yeah , very big move , amazing

6:21

opportunity , and we hope to be contributing

6:24

to making this industry a more productive

6:26

one with really portable medicine .

6:28

Amazing opportunity , but a lot of work

6:30

to . I mean , anytime you bring two companies

6:32

together , there are going to be things that are there

6:34

and abundance or maybe too much right , and there

6:36

are going to be things that are missing . So let's talk

6:39

from your leadership perspective . Let's talk a little

6:41

bit about that .

6:42

What was ?

6:43

we'll start with , maybe , the upshot

6:46

what was synergistic

6:48

and what did you have in abundance by

6:50

bringing the company ?

6:51

Yes , that's a very good question

6:55

. Well , what I can tell you is it makes sense

6:57

for everybody involved Board

6:59

member , all of the investor , of

7:02

course , or ecosystem and decision

7:04

maker and flagship . But so team and

7:07

I'm mentioning the team last but importantly as

7:09

you merge , company doesn't make sense

7:11

, you're fighting against

7:13

. It doesn't make sense to put

7:15

this thing together . In this case , alpha

7:18

, the battle is already won because

7:20

for everybody involved it makes sense

7:22

. Why it makes sense ? Because

7:25

we are synergistic more than

7:27

overlapping . One company

7:29

was advanced with one of

7:31

the best next generation RNA

7:33

proposition on market , with circular

7:36

RNA that we coordinate and that's

7:38

RNA . We're going to give you much more details

7:41

about it , but it explains the programation of

7:43

RNA vastly beyond

7:45

what is followed today with linear RNA

7:47

. This company was looking at

7:49

delivery of RNA , which is the basic

7:51

LNP . That again , we can maybe

7:53

cut back to the future . So commoditize

7:56

delivery , very advanced RNA

7:59

with and less RNA . On

8:01

one side , which is the long side , the

8:03

center side , we had exactly the opposite the

8:06

very novel way to actually program

8:08

deployment of RNA or

8:10

delivery of RNA . We have a very commoditized

8:13

mRNA technology attached

8:15

to it . All together now we

8:18

have the most comprehensive and most advanced

8:21

entirely programmable RNA

8:23

medicine in the industry , with

8:25

linear RNA , serocular

8:28

RNA , lnp and natural

8:30

nanoparticle all together . So

8:33

that makes sense . Where

8:35

we have actually synergy is some of this

8:37

position . Obviously that's where we have

8:39

in redundancy and we've been able to

8:41

organize ourselves to move through that

8:44

transition quite swiftly and

8:46

we are now very much in position of executing

8:49

the integration . Three month in is

8:51

almost behind us at this stage . Yeah

8:54

, we're quite excited to be going after this . It

8:56

makes sense vision that we all have

8:58

and put the energy into building more

9:01

than integrating . So

9:04

the battle is born when you are actually

9:06

a purpose that makes sense for everybody . We have been

9:08

quite excited to see that everywhere

9:10

in the organization .

9:12

You use the keyword integration . So

9:15

when two companies merge , integration

9:17

needs to happen at every level

9:19

systems like operating systems

9:21

, office systems , people and

9:25

when that integration happens , that's where

9:27

sometimes what's missing reveals itself

9:29

. That's

9:31

where the sweat actually comes in . You got to roll up your

9:34

sleeves and make things happen and so

9:36

walk us through that . When

9:38

you began that integration of the companies in

9:40

earnest two part question I'd

9:42

like to know what it looks like . Did

9:44

you bring these people and facilities

9:47

physically together ? And then two

9:49

how did you muscle

9:51

through that actual marriage

9:54

? I'm married . I know

9:56

you got a muscle .

9:58

It is a work of every day on both sides

10:00

of the table . It's

10:06

a work that requires two ways of collaboration

10:08

, which actually brings me to something which is important

10:11

here is when you have a common sense

10:13

of purpose that is clear for everybody and you

10:15

manage to unite energy behind it

10:17

, again you cover

10:20

a lot of the very

10:22

necessary energy that you need

10:24

to absorb the change and have

10:26

people , including myself , involved

10:28

in two fees transaction and integration

10:30

, putting the extra effort to

10:33

bring it together because you believe

10:35

it . You believe in what we're trying to do

10:37

. So that was very important to appreciate

10:40

. As we announced to the team , both company announced

10:42

at the same time . To bring

10:44

you into the story and what happened exactly that day where we make

10:47

the announcement , we engage separately

10:50

. The two teams explained

10:52

that we were merging and brought the same day two

10:55

teams together and celebrated

10:57

and started asking the question

11:00

and , of course , starting with our own energy

11:02

beyond the purpose and realizing we

11:05

had won that battle . It makes sense

11:07

for everybody we talked to . I

11:09

went through another merger

11:12

situation at the start of my

11:14

journey with flagship where it was

11:17

making not as much

11:19

sense and had to fight for

11:21

months and months actually more than a year to

11:24

be able to even reschedule the vision , to

11:26

ignite the energy of one

11:29

team behind one single purpose

11:31

. Here it was , at the beginning , pretty

11:33

clear for everybody . So now

11:35

of course , you have a mini greedy of integrating

11:37

system . We have , of course

11:40

, two different system . We

11:42

have two different human resource policies

11:44

. We have a bunch of legal

11:47

policies and documents that needed to

11:49

be harmonized . We

11:52

have two sites and we won one site . All

11:55

of that is certainly being done and prosecuted

11:58

today , but again by a team of

12:00

people that believe in the vision and

12:02

want to get at it and actually want

12:05

to get done with it . That's

12:07

why , I got mad To move forward into

12:09

building the company .

12:10

Right yeah , when

12:13

you're trying to do great things in science and

12:15

medicine and you have

12:17

a disruptive business

12:20

challenge to solve , ie a

12:22

merger . Just give us some

12:25

pretend , like you're speaking to someone who is on

12:28

the cusp of seeing that for the first time Right . Yeah

12:30

, some

12:32

advice on how to maintain that

12:34

mission driven focus and

12:37

not lose sight of that while

12:39

you're distracted by this disruption

12:41

of a merger .

12:42

Yes , so I'm over

12:44

a sense of purpose , which I think is absolutely

12:46

critical . So I'm going to put it on the other

12:48

, on the side , and get into another key

12:50

element Directness , transparency

12:52

or communication , and over communication

12:55

is key . You have to make

12:57

yourself and the leadership team available to

12:59

the entire team and it has to

13:01

be a two way street as fast delivering

13:04

what we're trying to do and receiving from

13:07

the team what they are actually experiencing

13:09

. You also need to build

13:11

these highly collaborative which we have been

13:13

in the two companies . So that was very

13:15

nice in place , but it

13:18

has to be a collaborative work all

13:20

the way . You just cannot integrate

13:22

from the top down , every putting into

13:24

a gauge and you don't want bystander

13:26

to sit in the arena and

13:28

look at what's going on on the field . You

13:31

want everybody to basically get at it

13:33

. So now from that it become

13:35

harnessing the energy of people willing

13:37

to put the X-ray to get it done with

13:39

integration , while actually

13:41

keeping building the organization . So

13:44

the key additional point that I want to bring to you

13:46

beside a very strong sense of purpose

13:48

and make sure that everybody said , is

13:51

directness , transparency

13:53

and over communication and

13:55

creating a very at least as my style

13:58

as a leader and highly collaborative

14:00

engagement that give a voice to everybody

14:03

and create these ways

14:05

to listen to everybody

14:07

, especially when you bring new

14:09

team members coming from two different

14:11

organization . But actually we have to work

14:13

together so the sooner you start

14:15

is processing or listening

14:18

and discovering each other and respecting

14:21

what everybody bring to the table and engage

14:23

with team to building together a company

14:26

. That we have now decided to merge is

14:28

a critical part of , and over critical part

14:30

of , what you hope to

14:32

be kept as we move

14:34

from integration to building the company

14:36

Right Right to work .

14:38

Yeah , how many people are

14:40

involved in the right now ?

14:42

we are about a little bit less than

14:44

200 people , which is

14:46

significant higher than what we had on

14:48

two companies . And of course , I bring

14:50

the challenge of two sites and

14:52

we have now announced , actually , that we

14:54

can be moving once in a side , which

14:57

I'm really looking forward to because it's going to continue

14:59

to jump the organization

15:01

to one organization right once

15:03

, your site right now . Right now , when I'm very

15:05

happy to see , as I go into the two different

15:07

sites of the legacy company , I'm seeing

15:10

familiar face from one company

15:12

in the other side and vice

15:14

versa . So I'm already seeing that this

15:17

really collaborative

15:19

work is already happening on the ground and

15:21

I just cannot wait to see everybody on the one

15:23

roof . Yeah , fortunately , we made the

15:25

decision now that we're going to be one

15:28

single site and already preparing

15:30

to move .

15:31

Yeah , so will you utilize

15:33

one of the existing facilities ?

15:34

or it's going to be a new one for us , but one

15:36

that is very well known in

15:39

your ecosystem . Flagship , which is also one

15:41

of the things that I want to bring to

15:43

the table , is being part of his ecosystem

15:45

is absolutely unvariable

15:47

in so many dimension , including

15:49

site selection , and to

15:52

very , quite quickly

15:54

bring a team

15:56

into one fantastic site with

15:58

a lot of capabilities and amenities

16:00

that are needed to a purpose

16:02

or science , into a product and

16:05

and medicine for patients .

16:09

Why were you chosen to

16:11

be the leader of the new entity ?

16:16

It's a tough question , you know . I

16:20

can use it as a positive or

16:22

negative way to

16:24

answer question by question

16:26

. Why me , in a guilty kind

16:29

of way . I'm

16:32

not insinuating that it's a question you ask yourself

16:35

every morning , when you wake up .

16:36

No , Well

16:38

, I mean you can get into a little bit

16:40

of your background , if you'd like . I mean , you came to flagship

16:42

in 2020 , is that correct ? 2020,

16:45

? Yeah , as a partner and CEO

16:47

.

16:48

Being a partner , which is how

16:50

we set up this world . Now , to be CEO and

16:53

partner get you to

16:55

precisely be able to be involved

16:57

in looking at the full ecosystem

16:59

and when we saw opportunities , we

17:02

can have a voice and engage

17:04

the rest of the ecosystem

17:07

and flagship to see how we

17:09

could collaborate between companies

17:11

, for instance , or in this case , could

17:13

companies together . So I do

17:15

remember that discussion more than a year

17:17

ago that it may make sense to bring these two

17:19

companies together . We were

17:22

probably over thinking that the combination

17:24

was so extraordinary and synergistic , but

17:27

at the right time it would have made

17:29

sense to do it . As we went

17:31

through the process , again in a very collaborative

17:33

way with several colleagues in the

17:35

flagship ecosystem , I could

17:37

have been dropped from being the

17:39

CEO of the organizations and I

17:41

feel very humbled and

17:44

trusted and fortunate to be

17:46

coaching the journey in this merger

17:48

organization . For sure , but it

17:50

had made sense for quite some time and we had a

17:52

long way into putting

17:54

these companies together , Maybe

17:57

when I bring to the table , especially in these

17:59

circumstances of igniting energy and

18:01

being contagious , but I believe

18:04

that we have to start in great it's needed

18:06

.

18:07

I get that sense very much . It's very . Your

18:09

enthusiasm is I am .

18:11

It's only one life , so we're trying

18:13

to live it with fun and an

18:15

impact , and we're so fortunate to be in this industry

18:18

where the impact is better

18:20

in life of everybody , including ourselves

18:22

, and we get to the point of becoming

18:24

patient .

18:25

For sure . As

18:27

I mentioned , you were with GSK prior

18:30

to coming to flagship . What prompted

18:32

the move from ? I

18:34

always ask this question . It's not uncommon

18:37

at all for executives to lead big

18:39

bio for new emerging , exciting opportunities

18:41

but

18:43

at the same time , regardless of the fact that it's not uncommon , it's

18:47

still leaving a very relatively

18:51

safe place where you

18:53

can stay there for life if you want to . So

18:55

what was in you ? What

18:57

was in you that prompted you to join flagship ? It's

19:00

the second time .

19:00

I'm doing it . I was raised

19:03

at Sanofi or what had

19:05

become Sanofi from on Poulenc I want to say Sanofi . I

19:08

then jumped into a biotech and brought back to the

19:10

industry A little bit , despite what I really wanted to do

19:13

. I

19:16

was very happy in this small , fast

19:18

moving environment . But I discovered

19:21

all of my 15 years

19:23

at Sanofi with my first

19:25

biotech . But I

19:27

could see the impact we would make at GSK and we can come

19:29

back to that With this

19:31

very unique opportunity we had . But

19:34

after four years I was really looking at

19:36

getting back to something a little bit

19:38

more speedy , if you want and energy

19:40

. I

19:42

think to me , having done it twice

19:44

, the balance is a little bit

19:47

of a pendulum . I

19:49

think we've said we're getting into something else that

19:51

I didn't experience before because of the size of the organization

19:54

and

19:56

the capital available

19:58

to the organization . But your

20:00

trading impact or speed in

20:03

my own experience , having done it twice

20:05

, big impact in

20:08

large pharma , especially

20:10

when you get into the late

20:12

stage , commercialization close

20:15

to market , close to patient . The

20:17

science that emerge from externally

20:19

or internally becomes a way to impact

20:22

massively shareholders

20:25

and patients , obviously , and

20:27

you would . Biotech most

20:29

of us are stuck at

20:31

the early stage before , most

20:34

of us failing and a few of us have

20:36

turned over 10 , 15 years having

20:38

the chance to put one product maybe on

20:41

a market platform company and much more to offer

20:43

, but very few have multiple products

20:45

going to . So you have

20:47

speed , but without being packed on biotech and

20:50

you are absolutely not speed

20:52

but beautiful impact on

20:54

the pharma side of it , at least

20:57

from my experience . I don't want to claim

20:59

that it is a general rules , but it's what I experienced

21:01

. I've been a little bit in this pendulum

21:03

and I'm very happy with

21:06

my opportunity to

21:08

join flagship , to be back

21:11

to speed and with sales . I

21:13

really think we have impacted speed in

21:15

one single company and I'm

21:17

really looking forward to impacting the

21:19

industry with this transformation into

21:22

fully programmed medicine , and I

21:24

want to do that with speed , which

21:26

is the two more medicine today

21:28

, which is actually indicating

21:31

a very strong sense of urgency

21:33

why patients will wait

21:35

to be treated if you could

21:37

bring science to them

21:39

. Why don't we try to do it faster

21:41

, increasing the predictability

21:43

of the outcome which is solving for their

21:45

needs ?

21:49

You mentioned your time in Sanofi and

21:51

, from what I understand , you spent

21:53

quite a bit of that time , or at least a portion of that time

21:55

, in Mexico . That's right . Yeah , french

21:58

, obviously , so you did work in France

22:00

. Now you're here in the States . You've been all

22:02

over the world and I worked all over

22:04

the world in this industry and

22:06

I remember I had a Vakavijian

22:09

on the show a few months ago . He's

22:12

fantastic and he spent quite a bit of time talking

22:15

about the immigrant mentality and

22:17

that culture at flagship . I

22:21

mean you sort of have that in Spain . Given that you've

22:23

done work all over the world

22:25

in this industry , how does that sort

22:27

of shape , that global perspective , shape

22:29

your leadership style ? Why is

22:31

it important ?

22:33

First . I'm also an immigrant to these countries

22:35

, maybe like I'm back

22:37

at many others , including you all

22:39

in the US , past generation . We're

22:42

discussing about your route as well . Either

22:45

way , being immigrant and

22:47

first generation bring you in that space

22:49

where you need to somewhat reinvent

22:51

yourself . Through my

22:53

experience , besides being an immigrant and

22:55

first generation in the US my experience

22:58

in Mexico , for instance

23:00

, and also professionally and

23:04

I would also bring my start in

23:06

the US there's something very

23:08

again for me that

23:10

happened as I put

23:13

myself in a totally different environment

23:15

starting with and

23:17

it was Mexico , but it was the US

23:19

somewhat . I would

23:21

use Mexico as an example no

23:23

language , you don't

23:25

know the food , you don't know the people , you don't

23:27

know the culture . You start

23:30

. You have two ways to do it . You want

23:32

to bring what you come from

23:34

into the mix and

23:36

you're trapped into walking

23:39

and living in an island , which is where

23:41

you're coming from , or you open

23:44

up , and you open up through the pressure

23:46

of not knowing what to do , and

23:49

for me , it was exactly what happened in the US

23:51

as well . When I immigrated , I had no

23:53

clue what I was doing . Language was not so

23:55

great . I had a very French accent

23:58

that I lost since I was a child , you could

24:00

say , but Mexico

24:02

I didn't speak the language . Even my first

24:04

day , and my first day actually I was introduced

24:06

to my predecessor for

24:09

a firewall party and we had 250

24:12

of my future team members

24:14

in front of me and I was expected

24:17

to speak in Spanish . I have no clue and

24:20

I actually had to decide am I going

24:22

to speak in French and English and impose

24:24

that to them , or am I

24:26

going to say I don't know your

24:28

language ? I'm going to need your help to

24:30

grow into being able to be part of

24:32

you and part of this team ? And

24:35

I decided I remember Vivi Dive , it was

24:37

me and I was somewhat frightened

24:39

but , on the other hand , welcoming the opportunity

24:42

, and I said I feel like a baby . I'm

24:45

going to reborn

24:48

into an environment , into a language

24:50

, into a culture that I want to appreciate

24:52

and go into . And

24:54

it's very refreshing . It gives you

24:56

a probability , it gives

24:58

you a sense that , especially in leadership

25:01

, that you need people more

25:03

than they need you .

25:04

Right , yeah , that's what you would say

25:06

. I mean , it had to be daunting .

25:08

And you put yourself in that situation . So you I've

25:10

been tested for this several steps

25:12

and

25:14

you have to find in you how you address

25:17

the adversity and the novelty

25:19

of a situation . And I found my

25:21

way . It's just my own way

25:24

of processing and leaving the experience

25:26

, but it gives me today , and

25:28

what I hope to be , a very open

25:31

mind and welcoming mind to any

25:33

voice . I have no problem

25:35

with diversity . I don't even understand why I'm

25:37

making an issue . I do understand that we're

25:39

biased , a big problem to solve

25:41

. But I'm not at all , from my experience

25:44

at the beginning , coming with

25:46

a fully not

25:49

too many biases . I probably have my biases

25:51

there , but for pressure , please experience

25:54

a lot of my initial

25:56

bias that's been broken down into pieces

25:58

and I hope I can bring the sense of

26:00

inclusiveness in the team

26:02

. And again , if you bring that plus a

26:05

clear sense of purpose and

26:07

you have a talented experience industry

26:10

veteran around you , it's

26:12

kind of the limit .

26:13

Yeah Well

26:15

, your English is proving itself right now . How's

26:17

your ?

26:18

Spanish . How's your Spanish

26:20

?

26:23

I was proven . All right , I

26:28

want to spend some time talking about the

26:30

technology and the platform . So

26:34

and I guess I'd preface this part

26:36

of the conversation with the RNA craze

26:38

, right ? You guys are calling

26:40

it endless RNA , or it seems circular

26:43

in RNA . It seems as though

26:45

it's sexy right now to put a

26:47

shape or a letter in front of RNA

26:50

and go to market . That is not

26:52

M like messenger .

26:53

We need another letter messenger .

26:59

Tell me . Let's start with that . Let's

27:01

start with a fundamental understanding of

27:03

why endless RNA

27:06

. Why endless RNA ? What is it and why

27:08

?

27:09

We answer with the context

27:11

of programming the entire medicine . It's

27:14

also mean that we need to improve the

27:16

programming of mRNA . We

27:20

do program mRNA , don't get me wrong . We

27:22

can encode through a sequence

27:24

, the translation

27:26

and ultimately the secretion of

27:29

given protein by cells by

27:31

virtue of entering a sequence into the

27:33

construct of the messenger

27:36

. Rna linear , but

27:38

it's act like a switch in and of

27:40

very fast . So you have a burst

27:42

of protein expressed and then you don't . Which

27:45

pharmacology to be speaking limits

27:47

the applicability in terms of therapeutic

27:50

area . You can get into two

27:53

IOC marks and get you

27:55

in some program that limits the disease

27:57

you can get into . The quick in and

27:59

outs may not be enough for

28:02

a long expression , but you may need

28:04

a mosephal chronic disease , for

28:06

instance . What

28:08

we've done with the RNA is

28:10

adding a dimension

28:12

of the programmability by prolonging

28:15

the expression of protein

28:17

that can still encode into

28:20

the RNA . So we extending

28:22

the program of the probability

28:24

of RNA and

28:26

improving the theoretical power of

28:28

RNA the beauty of what we've

28:31

done at cells . And by combination

28:33

of these two companies now we're stacking

28:35

in the same company mRNA and

28:38

RNA . We can

28:40

program for quick in and out . We

28:43

can also with mRNA . We can

28:45

also program , a more

28:47

prolonged and trainable pharmacokinetic

28:50

by virtue of programming in

28:52

RNA . But it's only part of the story and

28:54

I hope we can discuss about deployment

28:56

as well , which is also part

28:58

of the stacking technology for stacking

29:00

bacteria . Stacking .

29:02

Yeah . So

29:04

what I picked up from reading about you is you've

29:08

got these three pillars . We were just talking about

29:10

programmable payloads of endless

29:12

RNA , programmable nanoparticles

29:15

and proprietary AI technologies

29:17

, so does stacking fit in somewhere

29:19

?

29:19

Absolutely 300% , because right now what

29:21

we can do with RNA

29:24

in general is programming

29:26

the molecule itself . The

29:28

15 years is one of this molecule on the market

29:30

. So something is missing . We're

29:33

talking about extending and prolonging

29:35

the pharmacokinetic

29:37

of expression of protein . That certainly

29:40

will help accessing

29:42

over disease area . That , for

29:44

one , vaccines that , fortunately

29:46

, we've been able to crack with mRNA . There

29:49

is something else going on here . We just

29:51

cannot bring RNA to the right cell , and

29:55

that is where we have

29:57

, also by virtue of combining

29:59

the two companies , brought another

30:01

programmable solution . But

30:03

I'm excited to talk to you about

30:06

it . Let's do it .

30:08

Right , get out .

30:10

First , everything is sources of nature , so

30:13

vision statement is full of language

30:15

of life . It's all used for us

30:17

today . That genetic code gives us the ability

30:19

to program molecules and cell RNA , which

30:21

will be linear , or

30:25

endless RNA , as we call

30:27

it , at cell . But

30:29

we also found in nature a programming

30:31

language that helps us to deploy

30:33

the RNA , or deliver RNA

30:35

to different cells in

30:38

a programable way . It

30:40

turns out , species from all kingdom

30:43

of life have evolved to do what we're

30:45

trying to do , theoretically speaking , communicate

30:48

with each other at cellular

30:50

level . Species have evolved

30:53

to defend themselves , to grow and

30:55

make their ecosystem vibrant , to

30:57

send molecules to cells , to other species

31:00

in their immediate surrounding . It's

31:02

true , in our body we

31:05

talk about the microbiome

31:08

as one area . There's a lot going on

31:10

also in the primary area . But we're

31:12

not able to defend themselves by

31:14

doing exactly that as

31:17

a defense mechanism to

31:19

inject toxins in

31:22

cells of the pathogenic attacker

31:24

. They don't run away , they just have

31:26

to defend themselves . So if these interspecies

31:29

, intercellar communications everywhere

31:31

and coming from the views

31:33

of evolution , and when we looked at it we

31:36

realized that these communication are

31:38

enabled with a nano-sized vesicle

31:40

secreted by species to enable

31:43

this communication . Guess what

31:45

these vesicle are chemically encoded

31:47

, to bring the directionality

31:50

of the communication

31:53

, targeting the aspect of it , and they repeat

31:55

those . So what we spent

31:57

three years doing in one of our legacy companies

31:59

is extract this molecular

32:02

composition from natural

32:04

nano-vesicle coming from 5pnm

32:06

of life . We have 75,000 absolutely

32:10

novel molecules in our

32:12

Atlas that we systematically build

32:14

and curate and we're playing

32:16

AI and machine learning to

32:18

fit very vast design domain , that 5x3

32:21

what is possible today with synthetic lipid

32:23

that are being used for classic

32:25

LMP , used for any mRNA

32:27

medicine today

32:30

. So we're bringing this over

32:32

the dimension . So all together now

32:34

you can program everything

32:36

about the medicine

32:38

RNA , deployment , RNA . So

32:41

your AI , machine learning become an integrative

32:43

generation of medicine

32:46

, not just generation of RNA

32:48

. So now the world

32:50

is fully programmed with the disease it's happening

32:52

and the idea that we can go faster

32:55

, bring predictability and get

32:57

into disease that we cannot go into by

32:59

bringing RNA or mRNA

33:01

to cells we cannot reach or

33:03

repeat those for chronic disease . Open

33:06

water administration or water administration

33:08

is not any more efficient

33:11

. It's becoming a reality .

33:12

Yeah , the elite

33:14

, from the scientific

33:17

part of what you're discussing , you know , molecular

33:21

discovery

33:23

across the animal kingdom

33:25

, to computational

33:29

biology , ai and machine learning . For

33:31

some companies , for some people , that's

33:33

a big leap on many fronts

33:36

, for many facets . Right , like I

33:39

mean one . You're marrying

33:42

science and technology

33:45

that haven't necessarily played well

33:47

or at all together historically . So

33:50

tell me a little bit about that . Like

33:53

, how have you or how are you at

33:55

cell sort of integrating

33:57

those two disciplines of thought

33:59

? You know you've got to have computational

34:01

biologists and artificial and technical

34:04

experts and machine learning folks

34:06

working in lockstep with

34:08

you know scientists

34:10

who get excited about the discovery

34:12

of , you know , nanoparticles , right , so

34:15

how do you manage to do that ?

34:17

We do already have a AI machine

34:20

learning team embedded into

34:22

one of the legacy companies that has already

34:24

started to bring the power of these capabilities

34:27

into the more traditional

34:29

way to hypothesis driven

34:31

experience driven way

34:33

to discover , turn the

34:35

discovery into generation through

34:37

computing , and we are bringing this

34:40

team now to the support

34:43

of generating transportation

34:45

or deployment over the day and

34:48

, ultimately , we want this team to help us to integrate

34:50

the design and generate the entirety

34:53

of medicine . There's no reason why to stop at

34:55

component level . You have to do it like

34:57

a cell phone in a very integrated level . Yeah

35:00

, but you're raising a very good

35:02

question and here I'm going

35:04

to tell you that I

35:06

don't know .

35:08

You're a lot of time away , yeah .

35:12

But I can also tell you that I

35:14

checked with several other flagship companies

35:16

that have already went through the process

35:18

. Yeah , and they certainly

35:20

culture an adaptation to

35:23

accepting , as a scientist , a computational

35:26

scientist coming at you and said I

35:28

have a totally different way to think about this problem

35:30

and I don't necessarily need to

35:32

know deeply about the science

35:34

. I need to be able to have

35:36

access to the data and sample

35:39

and explore very fast these

35:41

hand domain that actually you have in front of you . But

35:44

what you don't have is a lifetime of exploring

35:46

every single combination Right and

35:48

accelerate this process and give you some rules

35:51

, some handles that get you to

35:53

understand better what's going on

35:55

here . It's a bit of a deceit I

35:57

see for deceit ringer . I mean you're decoding

35:59

, if you want , in your case , what is actually available

36:01

coming from beyond views of evolution

36:03

. I mean you're going at

36:06

the generation , the

36:08

other , the opposite way that we will

36:10

do with discovery . You're

36:13

accepted as the solution is probably there

36:15

and you're trying to find the right combination

36:17

of elements nuclear

36:19

gas in the nanoparticle

36:22

and natural , natural

36:24

nanoparticle component that together give

36:26

you a performance that you're looking at

36:29

delivering as a medicine . So

36:31

reverse , define the performance . You want design

36:34

to reach performance , yeah

36:36

, which is kind of a very interesting in engineering

36:38

term . It's something we do all the time because

36:41

the technologies much more advanced . We basically

36:43

do performance by design everywhere , but

36:46

in medicine it's been quite complicated

36:48

to do that because we're missing knowledge and

36:51

ability , or we were missing so far knowledge

36:54

and ability to explore

36:56

large design domain that we very much

36:58

in learning and what we're bringing to the

37:00

table at CEL . We have a

37:02

very large design domain on both hand

37:04

. Think about the combination . It's even

37:06

faster and now we're

37:09

bringing it to help us decipher

37:11

and ultimately generate novel medicine

37:13

.

37:13

Yeah , Whenever

37:15

I talk with companies who are deploying

37:18

AI

37:20

to work through large data sets

37:23

and help get closer

37:25

to the ideal , it's

37:28

difficult to sit back and

37:31

imagine in your head okay , like the

37:33

traditional birth of a biopharma company

37:35

. A biotech happens this way

37:37

and it's kind of easy to follow the

37:39

continuum the

37:42

molecule , the viability of the molecule

37:44

, the CMC

37:47

assessments , and on and on down the line . You

37:50

introduce a whole lot

37:52

of molecular data to

37:54

machine learning and AI and suddenly

37:56

you have a company that it's

37:59

not so easy to follow that trend line

38:01

. So can you share

38:03

?

38:04

it . It's sort of a vague question .

38:05

but where do you are

38:07

right now ? I want to

38:09

learn if a pipeline is in the works

38:12

to the degree that you can share , but sort

38:14

of give us an idea

38:16

of where your work sale is

38:18

on that continuum in terms of having

38:20

a therapeutic

38:23

yeah , absolutely Maybe

38:25

stage of a company and what we have the aspiration

38:28

to deliver in the next , let's say , 30 months

38:30

or so .

38:31

We will be new men in the next

38:33

30 months with at least two programs

38:35

, don't more . We will

38:37

and have set the objective to

38:39

nominate five growth candidates

38:41

in the next 18 months and

38:44

, as you may have seen , we have engaged

38:46

through two partnership

38:49

sales and you're

38:51

very humbled and excited

38:53

to be working with these two foundation that represent

38:55

the best expert and most dedicated

38:58

foundation against two very important

39:00

disease Malaria and CFF

39:02

, or CF and CFTR . In

39:05

particular , we have announced the partnering

39:07

with the Gate Foundation and

39:09

joined the fight against Malaria with

39:12

two different programs . We like

39:14

their commitment , we like their expertise . We

39:16

want to be part of the journey to make a difference

39:19

. We're not trying to sample , we're

39:23

not testing one technology or another . We

39:25

want to engage in making an impact

39:27

and we're very proud to be part of this

39:29

partnership and hopefully bring a solution to

39:32

Malaria , which is still a very

39:34

deadly disease unfortunately to

39:36

these days , and we also

39:38

have announced the work with CFF

39:42

or CFTR , with absolutely

39:45

striking data generated last year with the INA

39:47

. But to your question , and

39:49

one of the things that you evoke with your

39:51

question is , maybe

39:53

wrongly , but if you are in

39:56

debt into your generation

39:58

AI , you may

40:00

have to give up somewhat . What are

40:02

you going to generate ?

40:07

I mean that's great for second view because it's

40:09

actually more concise than the way that

40:11

I posed that very roundabout

40:13

question , but that's exactly the point which

40:15

is a good problem to have right ? Yeah , it is .

40:18

And the beauty of it is we do have a lot of possibilities

40:21

from an application viewpoint . It's

40:23

kind of amplified with AI , which

40:26

brings us to the real question

40:28

. As for me , operating with company

40:30

is number one . Do

40:32

we want to do all of that ourselves

40:34

? And the answer is absolutely

40:37

no , and I

40:39

was going to partner already

40:41

with that in mind . We want to

40:43

work with the best experts and it's

40:45

going to take a village , an entire industry , to

40:48

embrace fully-programmed medicine

40:51

. We are one of the

40:53

many companies that are trying

40:55

to do it . We are bringing a

40:57

unique set of technology . We

40:59

think we have the most comprehensive , entirely-programmed

41:01

, only-enabled medicine , but it's only part

41:03

of what is needed to solve for

41:05

patient needs , and we're very humble

41:08

about the world . So bringing expertise

41:10

, bringing capabilities

41:13

we don't have , is something that we welcome

41:15

. So if you think like that , you can generate

41:17

whatever is generated

41:19

and make it available to companies that

41:22

want to work with you . That's one . But

41:24

for internal problems , which we do have , it's raising

41:26

up a question where

41:28

do you want to start and what area

41:30

do you want to start with ? So here

41:32

we have a few principles . Number one anything

41:35

where the biology is not known at

41:38

the stage of a company . It's a risk

41:40

we don't want to take . So we want to be in front

41:42

of proving that our technology

41:44

works on top of the biology

41:46

. That is the risk . So that is

41:48

absolutely clear . We may take as

41:50

we create a portfolio if you risk

41:52

the biology side . But as an overwhelmingly

41:55

principle for deciding

41:58

what to bring to humans , we're

42:00

going to avoid to take the biology risk . But

42:03

certainly we want to prove a platform . We

42:05

want to prove a platform in multiple axes

42:07

of value creation . We

42:10

have opened and I'm thinking about it for three

42:12

different things . So , if

42:14

you give me a minute , is broader

42:16

administration , classically

42:19

for RNA medicine , iv , im

42:22

with vaccine for sure we are

42:24

opening right now sub Q and have

42:26

a line of sight

42:28

for maybe four . So broader

42:30

administration proving that the platform

42:32

works in human by sampling

42:35

and selecting program

42:37

that helps us to check various

42:39

broader administration . Then we have what

42:41

we call modality . Where do we express

42:43

a protein ? Within the

42:45

cell , outside the cell

42:47

or at the membrane of the cell

42:50

? Here let's give us also a

42:52

way to sample . What the technology can do by

42:54

deciding to sample the

42:56

by virtue of a program we select

42:58

is pre type of modality . And

43:01

finally , where do we bring

43:04

our DNA , which kind of cells and tissues

43:06

we can access . And today we can

43:08

access four different tissues and cells

43:10

which , when you think about this pre

43:12

dimension , we have

43:15

already a lot to do in rare disease

43:17

, metabolic disease , which is very unique , and

43:19

chronic disease in general . Obviously

43:21

, vaccines , including cancer vaccines , we

43:24

have started to crack monoclonal

43:26

antibody and coded into RNA , possibly

43:29

with sub Q . think about bringing

43:32

the field of monoclonal antibody , the

43:34

RNA technology that

43:36

is already going everywhere from

43:39

an application viewpoint and

43:41

of course , here is bringing us to the learn with

43:43

a gene . I

43:47

would say we play enzyme replacement

43:49

or approach to a disease which is worded

43:51

into a genetic defect

43:53

. So we are here looking at , at

43:56

the stage of the company , enabling

43:59

the de-risking of some of the key features

44:01

we want to do for treatment medicine . More

44:04

than trying to open one single

44:06

therapeutic area and

44:09

becoming the best in this therapeutic

44:11

area , we will have to pick up a fight going

44:13

forward . For sure , at this stage

44:15

it's a lot about demonstrating that

44:17

a platform can reach many different

44:19

areas and sampling the space

44:22

at the support of time .

44:24

I mean , it's not been smooth

44:27

sailing from

44:29

a financial market stand . In the market

44:32

in general , it seems like a lot of

44:34

companies are

44:36

realizing that they've got to have

44:38

either a bulletproof

44:40

platform or products

44:42

to appeal to investors . More

44:44

often than not what

44:46

I'm hearing product is key . Is

44:49

that been a you guys launched in Q4

44:52

of last year ? Maybe

44:57

?

44:57

to sum up the ideal time , although other people have

44:59

told me the best companies are born in

45:02

the face of adversity .

45:05

First , many years experience , though , in terms of where

45:07

the company is in its on

45:10

this phase of its continuum and its

45:12

reception by the

45:15

investor market .

45:17

So first , we are very well

45:19

capitalized . The two companies were

45:21

very well funded , so

45:23

none of these companies had to raise money immediately

45:26

. So , combined , we have the

45:28

mean and the runway to bring the

45:30

technology to you and we were having necessary

45:32

to raise money . The partnership that we

45:35

have announced , plus likely another

45:37

one at least by mid-year , will

45:39

bring us extra non-duty funding

45:41

to even prolong the runway and open

45:44

up possibilities for applications

45:47

in the future program . It

45:49

certainly has been very difficult for the entire industry

45:51

and probably remain for

45:53

a good part of this year . Not

45:56

that I have a crystal ball , but it's going

45:58

to take time to bring back . These things don't

46:00

generally change with the foot on the switch . No

46:02

, it takes a little bit of time , but a few

46:04

success will bring us back to being confident

46:07

and excited about what this

46:09

amazing industry that we're part of can do

46:11

to patient , and that is going to

46:13

come back for sure , I have absolutely no doubt

46:15

, and you're going to see a next generation of

46:17

technologies , such as what we're doing at Salesforce

46:19

and releasing , coming up from

46:22

a page and front and center to

46:24

generate significant value and attract significant

46:27

capital as well . We

46:29

don't have to fundraise right now . I think

46:31

the first pass for us

46:34

is to attract a

46:36

partner and work with experts and

46:38

co-relate strategic partner that's want to

46:40

play along with us

46:42

and that will bring money

46:45

in the bank , to be very clear . But

46:47

we don't need right now to

46:50

raise to deliver our first human

46:52

. Again , it's a very enjoyable

46:54

position , but very few right by a top

46:56

of my friend in the industry I

46:59

have right now as a luxury . I do

47:01

agree with you that it's important to translate

47:03

. I'm an engineer by background

47:05

, so maybe my head is into

47:07

the concreteness

47:10

of what we do , what sort of engineering idea I have

47:12

a chemical engineer , chemical engineer as your PhD

47:14

? No , my PhD

47:17

was in material science . Oh , okay , yeah

47:19

, but I'm also part

47:21

of this industry for impact to patient and

47:23

I

47:25

value and love science

47:28

, but I want to see science

47:30

making a difference and being

47:32

part of this industry . Translating , building

47:35

pipeline and ultimately bringing

47:37

all of medicine to solve patient needs is

47:39

what it's all about for all of us , and

47:41

quite sure it's important for

47:44

us to demonstrate that we can productize and

47:46

not only build an amazing engine , and

47:48

that's fortunately

47:50

where we already are with many

47:53

different potential problems . I

47:55

generated , on the application side of it , line

47:58

of sight for five per candidate in the next

48:00

18 months , two

48:02

for senior men in 30 months , and

48:04

I'm going to get back to revision . It's a

48:06

tour of medicine today

48:09

, yeah .

48:12

Well , I was going to say you made it clear that you want to do these things

48:14

quickly , because speed is tomorrow

48:17

, tomorrow's medicine

48:19

. Today , when you so you say partnerships

48:21

are sort of a key , absolutely

48:24

, you know , not too concerned about the runway

48:26

partnerships , you come to a place

48:28

like San Francisco , durain , jpm

48:30

, we , what's

48:33

the goal ? Is it sort of explore

48:35

these ?

48:35

partnerships loaded with partnership discussion

48:38

. Also investor discussion on

48:41

or investor already

48:43

committed to a success who have

48:46

invested in both companies separated company

48:48

. We have full support . I think that's

48:50

how I feel we are based on reception

48:53

as we process for the transaction

48:55

. We had enthusiastic support behind

48:58

FISA transaction . It makes sense for everybody

49:00

, including our investors . So I think

49:02

we're invested , probably looking at , know

49:04

what I want to see that moving

49:06

in the right direction . I want to see program and

49:08

data and that's exactly what I want to

49:10

see as well and I do hope

49:12

to unite his sense of energy

49:15

beyond the . So what

49:17

we put together here by engaging

49:19

this week at JPM . I will be tomorrow

49:21

at the conference at 2

49:23

pm presenting sales and

49:26

I do hope to be able to communicate to our

49:28

energy action around what

49:30

we're trying to do and bring reassurance

49:32

that some fees merge come from two

49:34

growth company match your technology

49:37

. That's stuck . What we need to move

49:39

us to FISA have fully program

49:41

or medicine and I'm quite excited

49:43

for what it means to patient and shareholder

49:45

. It's a tremendous value for

49:47

shareholders and patient .

49:50

Yeah , well , we'll be . You know you

49:52

set the bar . We've talked about how speed

49:54

is important and patient

49:57

benefit will be we'll be paying attention to trying

49:59

to hang on for the break back ride . So

50:04

I appreciate you coming and spending some time with me . I

50:08

know it's a very busy week for everyone involved and

50:10

I really appreciate that you made the time to stop

50:13

.

50:13

Thank you so much . It was a pleasure meeting you

50:15

as well . Thank you for the opportunity .

50:17

I'm Matt Pillar and you just listened to the business

50:19

of biotech , the weekly podcast

50:21

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50:24

. We drop a new episode with a

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50:51

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