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1:40

This is But Why, a podcast for

1:42

curious kids from Vermont Public. I'm

1:44

Jane Lindholm. On this show, we

1:47

take questions from curious kids just

1:49

like you, and we find interesting people

1:51

to answer them. Here

1:53

in the US, where we are based, lots

1:56

of kids and some adults are gearing

1:58

up for an annual event.

1:59

that involves dressing up, eating

2:02

a lot of sweets, and sometimes getting

2:04

a little scared. I'm talking

2:06

about Halloween. Now the dressing

2:09

up and the eating sweets parts I can

2:11

totally get behind, but watching scary

2:14

movies or going to visit a haunted house,

2:17

I don't generally like to be scared, but I

2:19

live with two kids who do. What

2:21

about you? Do you

2:23

love that little shiver of excitement,

2:26

the hair standing up on the back of your neck as

2:28

you peer into the darkness of a

2:30

haunted house, knowing something

2:32

might be just around the corner, or

2:35

that moment in a scary movie that makes you

2:37

jump and scream,

2:39

or maybe

2:39

the feeling right at the top

2:42

of a roller coaster when you're about to punch

2:44

down at breakneck speed. If

2:46

you like being scared, on purpose,

2:49

for fun, you're not alone. And

2:52

in fact, research shows it might

2:54

be a good idea to do things that are a

2:56

little bit scary but not too dangerous.

3:00

Today we're going to find out why with someone

3:03

who researches fear.

3:04

I'm Mark

3:07

Anderson.

3:08

Mark Anderson is an assistant professor

3:10

at Aarhus University in Denmark,

3:13

where he's the co-director of the Recreational

3:15

Fear Lab. What's that? Well,

3:18

here's how Mark says one of his kids would describe

3:20

his job. My kid would probably

3:22

tell other kids that her dad

3:24

does research on play and on

3:26

fear.

3:27

Researching play and fear?

3:30

That sounds

3:30

cool. At the Recreational Fear Lab,

3:32

we do research on

3:35

why it is that humans

3:39

enjoy being scared. And

3:41

we also do research on, you

3:43

could say, the effects of fun

3:46

fear. Why do humans

3:48

engage with fear out

3:51

of pure enjoyment? It's sort of

3:53

a weird puzzle for a lot of researchers.

3:56

Might it be healthy for you, for instance? Might

3:58

it be something that... helps you

4:00

feel as if you can

4:02

more easily deal with

4:05

scary stuff in your life going

4:07

forward, that kind of stuff. At

4:10

the Recreational Fear Lab, they run

4:12

scientific studies to test those theories.

4:15

Sometimes we find people out in the world that

4:18

are doing something that scare them and

4:20

then we ask them questions. Sometimes

4:23

we measure their heart rate or

4:26

how much they sweat on their skin or

4:28

the way their eyes move.

4:31

And then we look at what

4:34

those experiences do to them. One

4:37

study we did was in a haunted attraction

4:40

where a lot of participants

4:43

agreed to let us measure

4:45

their heart rates while they had to go

4:47

through this haunted attraction. And

4:50

then we asked them when they got out of the

4:52

attraction about how scared they

4:54

were

4:55

and how much they enjoyed

4:57

being in the

4:59

haunted attraction. And from that study

5:01

we discovered that there was this sweet

5:03

spot of fear that the

5:06

people that enjoyed themselves the most

5:08

in the haunt were actually

5:10

people that were not extremely

5:13

scared and they were not

5:16

scared either. They were sort of moderately

5:18

scared. That's where we saw the highest enjoyment

5:22

ratings from our participants. Humans

5:27

don't enjoy being

5:29

in situations

5:32

that are very, very, very different from

5:34

the ones that they are usually in, but

5:37

they do like being in situations

5:39

that are a little bit different and

5:41

that probably has to do with those

5:44

situations being the best situations

5:47

for learning and for stimulating our curiosity.

5:50

who

6:00

want to know why people have fears

6:02

in the first place. My name is

6:04

Sammy. I'm seven years old.

6:08

I live in Winholl, Vermont. And

6:11

my question is, why

6:13

do you get scared?

6:14

Space, space, space, space.

6:17

Rarrrrr! My

6:22

name is Samantha. I'm eight

6:24

years old. And

6:26

I live in Cabot, Vermont. And my question

6:28

is, why do people get

6:30

scared? My name is Louis.

6:32

I'm seven years old. I'm from Kansas

6:35

City. My question is,

6:38

why are people scared? My

6:40

name's Lucy. I'm eight years

6:42

old from Portland, Oregon. And my question

6:44

is, why are we afraid of stuff?

6:47

Thank you. Bye. Hi, my name

6:49

is Naya. I live in New Jersey.

6:51

I'm seven years old. And

6:54

my question is, how

6:56

do we know to be scared of something?

6:59

That's a great question. So

7:02

fear is actually one of the

7:05

emotions that science

7:08

understands the best. And it's

7:10

the most researched of all of our

7:12

emotions. In a sense, we

7:15

share this emotion with most, if

7:17

not all, other

7:20

sort of sophisticated animals. The

7:24

reason I say probably is that we

7:26

can't know for sure if

7:28

the way a dog feels fear is the

7:31

same as a human, of course. But

7:33

we do know that at least

7:35

to some degree, the behavior

7:38

that mammals exhibit seems

7:40

very similar when they get in a

7:42

threatening situation. But

7:46

the reason that most evolutionary

7:48

psychologists would think that

7:50

humans have this weird

7:52

emotion is to keep us away

7:54

from dangerous stuff. If

7:58

we see a... roaring

8:00

tiger that is coming

8:03

down to chase us, then it's very good

8:06

for human survival to have a feeling

8:08

such as fear because it will of

8:10

course allow us to react

8:12

very quickly to a predator

8:15

and shy away from whatever

8:17

stimuli it is that is creating

8:19

this emotion in us. So the short

8:21

answer is that humans

8:24

can feel this feeling because it has

8:27

helped humans for millions and

8:29

millions of years to

8:31

survive by motivating

8:35

them to keep away from dangerous

8:38

stuff.

8:39

Fear can be something that happens in your brain

8:42

but it's also often something you feel

8:44

in your body.

8:45

Yes, so we know that there

8:47

is a series of fairly

8:50

sort of stable effects on the body

8:53

when we experience fear.

8:56

Probably the most well known is that our

8:58

heart begins to beat

9:00

faster so it carries

9:03

more oxygen around our bloodstream.

9:07

Our pupils dilate as well so

9:09

we get ready to take in more light.

9:12

Oftentimes we sweat more as

9:15

well and many

9:18

researchers believe that the

9:20

reason the body is doing that is that

9:23

the body is preparing to act.

9:26

So when we feel this increase

9:30

in our heart rate it's

9:32

actually because our body is getting ready

9:34

to run or maybe fight.

9:37

So that's how we get afraid you could

9:39

say.

9:40

My name is Eloise. I'm eight years

9:42

old. I live in Montreal and

9:45

my question is why

9:47

do you blink your eyes when you're scared?

9:49

It's true that you can also

9:51

see a higher blink frequency especially

9:53

if something is very close to you and

9:56

then it's sort of a a knee-jerk

9:59

reaction.

9:59

I'm six

10:02

and a half years older than

10:04

my question. Why

10:09

do goosebumps only be

10:12

activated when

10:15

you're shivering

10:18

or when you're scared?

10:21

Mark says scientists don't fully understand

10:24

chills or goosebumps. But one

10:26

theory is that when you start to realize things

10:28

are going to go very bad or you might need to

10:30

defend yourself, getting goosebumps

10:33

raises the hair follicles all over your

10:35

body. And back when humans were

10:37

covered with more hair than we have now, all

10:40

our hair standing on end might have made us

10:42

look bigger, which could have helped us

10:44

against a predator. Like maybe you've

10:46

seen a domestic cat puff up all its hair

10:48

when it's defending itself. But

10:51

there's more work that needs to be done on that theory.

10:53

Maybe you'll be the one to investigate and find answers.

10:56

Hello, my name is Bruno. I'm

10:58

from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm

11:01

six years old. My question is, why

11:03

do we scream when we're scared? That's a

11:05

really good question.

11:07

I never thought about that. One

11:10

option could be that it is to

11:12

call for other humans. We

11:15

know that humans are one

11:18

of the most social

11:19

animals that have ever walked the face

11:22

of the earth. And so humans

11:24

use communicative signals a lot. So that

11:26

might be one option, that it is simply to signal

11:29

help to nearby humans.

11:31

And signal to other humans it does. A

11:34

different group of researchers has found that when

11:36

we hear someone else scream, the

11:39

fear center of our brain, our amygdala,

11:41

gets activated. So we're not only letting

11:44

others hear us when we scream, we're actually

11:46

passing on our fear to anyone who

11:48

can hear it, which could be good or

11:50

bad. Coming up, why are we

11:52

so afraid of things we can't see? And

11:56

is fear good?

12:00

This is But Why, a podcast for curious

12:02

kids. I'm Jane Lindholm. We're talking

12:04

today about fear with Mark Anderson.

12:07

He co-leads the Recreational Fear

12:09

Lab at Aarhus University

12:11

in Denmark. We've been talking about

12:14

how fear is an evolutionary response

12:16

to potential danger, but the things

12:18

that caused ancient humans fear weren't

12:21

scary movies or roller coasters or

12:23

the things that Rowan

12:24

wants to know about. I'm five years

12:27

old and I'm living in South Dakota.

12:30

And my question is, where did

12:32

you go to head to the bed, scary? My

12:36

own child also is afraid

12:39

of what is underneath the bed.

12:41

Sometimes my youngest daughter Eva, who's seven.

12:45

The reason is probably that those types

12:47

of situations where that

12:50

kind of fear can arise

12:52

often

12:53

has the combination

12:55

of darkness and

12:58

some kind of

13:00

scary expectations that

13:03

the person in the bed is carrying around

13:05

with them. Our sensory

13:07

system tries a lot to

13:09

make predictions about what it is that

13:12

is around us in our environment.

13:15

And when it's dark, it's very difficult for

13:17

the brain to

13:19

make a prediction about

13:21

what it will encounter.

13:22

And oftentimes

13:24

stuff underneath the bed is covered in darkness

13:27

and the closet similarly. If

13:30

then you get the

13:32

idea that there might be something sinister

13:35

or dangerous or scary in your

13:37

closet or underneath your bed, the

13:40

brain doesn't really have a good way

13:43

of checking that you are wrong when

13:45

there's darkness. The cure

13:48

for that kind of stuff is actually to

13:51

look under the bed and educate

13:54

your brain and

13:57

show it that there is a good way to make

13:59

a prediction.

14:00

that it can discard this hypothesis

14:03

about the monster under the bed.

14:04

So are you telling all of us

14:06

that it is okay to tell

14:08

our adults, I need to turn on the light

14:11

and check under my bed, or I need you

14:13

to go into my closet, then I

14:15

can go to sleep, but it's okay

14:17

to say to your adult, I need you to check on this

14:20

for me?

14:20

I think it would be better if the child

14:23

did it themselves. I

14:25

usually tell my kids

14:27

that when they see the monster, they

14:29

have to take a picture because we are going

14:31

to become so rich when

14:34

they are the first kid to

14:37

discover a monster under the bed. And

14:39

that typically takes the edge off that

14:43

it's actually a good thing to discover a monster

14:45

under your bed because you'll be the first one to

14:47

ever answer.

14:49

We've talked a little bit about fear and

14:51

what it is and how our body responds, but

14:53

a couple of kids have some pretty

14:56

insightful questions about what

14:58

fear might do for us. Why

15:01

do people get scared?

15:03

Hello, my name

15:05

is Ben. I'm from, I'm 10 years

15:07

old and I'm from Springfield, Illinois. My

15:10

question is, why do

15:12

we get scared and how

15:16

does getting scared help us?

15:18

That's a really good question. And there

15:21

are many answers to that question. On the

15:23

one hand,

15:24

if you get so scared that

15:26

you manage to escape the

15:28

neighbor's dog that is attacking you, then

15:31

of course fear is a good thing. It's very

15:33

unpleasant, but in some cases

15:36

fear can save your life. But

15:38

if we look at only what

15:41

the experience of fear does

15:43

to humans, then there are

15:45

also a few different answers.

15:48

We know from some research

15:51

that if children get

15:54

too frightened by

15:56

horror movies, for instance,

15:59

Then they can develop anxiety-like

16:03

behavior where they have nightmares,

16:06

they have trouble sleeping, they

16:10

avoid certain places

16:12

in their life. But

16:16

in some of the newer research, researchers

16:20

are starting to ask if

16:23

there are also benefits to

16:25

fear. And we think there are actually.

16:28

We think that it's a bad idea to avoid

16:31

things that make you scared altogether. The

16:34

key is that you have to find something

16:37

that is scary but that is also

16:40

fun

16:41

at the same time.

16:43

And that is something that children are

16:45

actually quite good at. Just

16:47

think of Halloween. That's

16:51

a time of year where a lot of children enjoy

16:54

the scare, enjoy scaring

16:56

others, enjoy being scared. So

16:59

it has to do with

17:01

how scary something is.

17:03

And it is,

17:05

there's a lot of studies

17:09

that indicate

17:10

that sort of a moderate

17:12

amount of fear, a mild

17:15

to a moderate amount of fear can be

17:17

very beneficial to children

17:19

and adults.

17:22

We don't always like things that are good for us,

17:25

so why do some people like getting

17:27

afraid?

17:28

My name is Tal, I'm from Pittsburgh,

17:30

Pennsylvania. I'm six and

17:33

I want to know why

17:35

people like getting

17:37

scared, like

17:40

scary stories, movies.

17:42

So the reason we think that humans

17:45

also like these moderate

17:47

scares is that it

17:49

is situations that we can learn from.

17:53

And we know that humans become very

17:56

interested and curious about things

17:58

that their brain is ready to learn. to learn,

18:01

you could say. So when you

18:03

see a horror movie that you

18:06

think is manageable, you

18:09

got scared, but you didn't get that scared,

18:12

then those are the movies that we typically

18:14

find people enjoy the most. And

18:16

we think that has to do with

18:19

people's ability to learn from the movie.

18:22

Sometimes they can learn

18:24

how to cope with

18:26

a very scary situation like what should I

18:28

do when a loud noise comes. Well, maybe

18:30

I can hold my ears. They

18:33

might learn how it feels to be scary.

18:36

They might learn how a chill, you know, how a

18:38

chill running down

18:41

your spine feels. There's a lot of things that

18:45

children and adults don't really get

18:47

to experience a lot. So we don't get

18:49

to practice it a lot. And

18:51

fear is one of them. And that's why

18:54

it can be really fun and interesting

18:56

to try to feel fear

18:58

in situations where you still think

19:00

that you can manage it. And

19:02

we see sort of the same thing, you know,

19:05

in theme parks where you might think that

19:07

it's really scary to go up in the big roller

19:09

coaster. But oftentimes

19:12

you can find a roller coaster that you

19:14

think is scary, but also quite fun.

19:17

And those are often the best ones and

19:19

the ones where we learn the most about how

19:21

our body responds

19:24

to

19:25

things that we are not used to.

19:27

What if like me, you are a person

19:29

who hates scary movies and hates scary

19:31

rides and doesn't ever want to feel afraid

19:34

on purpose? Are we okay? Or

19:37

should we be pushing ourselves to make her or

19:39

to do a little bit more of that controlled fear?

19:41

I

19:42

don't think you should be pushing

19:44

yourself, but I think those people

19:46

and I meet those people a lot that ask me

19:48

that question.

19:50

I think they underestimate

19:53

or

19:54

they forget that they are actually also

19:56

interested in things that are scary. Those

19:59

people might like to see you know a Disney

20:03

movie for instance. Disney movies can be quite

20:05

scary. They

20:07

might like you know if they're adults they might like

20:09

thrillers.

20:11

They are not horror movies but they are

20:13

also sometimes

20:15

somewhat scary. So it's

20:18

more about people maybe having

20:21

different levels or sort of different that

20:24

some people have gone further

20:26

in this domain than others but I think

20:29

the instinct or the appetite

20:31

for fear is something that all humans

20:33

have but the level of of that

20:35

fear might be very different

20:37

from person to person.

20:39

Hi my name is Owen I'm nine

20:42

years old I live in Maui Hawaii

20:44

and my question is how

20:46

can I help my friend when

20:48

my friend is afraid?

20:50

First of all it's very kind

20:51

to want to help a friend who's afraid Owen

20:54

and there are lots of ways to do that. One

20:57

way is to not put your friend in a situation

20:59

that's too scary for them like if you know

21:01

your friend doesn't enjoy when someone

21:03

runs up behind them and says boo

21:05

try not to do that to that friend

21:07

or if they're afraid of a dark closet maybe

21:10

you could be the one to check on it for them or

21:12

to hold their hand and help them check for themselves

21:15

and Mark says for people who are afraid of something

21:18

just being around someone they trust

21:21

can help.

21:21

You can simply stay

21:23

close to someone that you love or some

21:26

friend or something like that and just

21:28

being in the proximity of another

21:30

human can also sometimes help

21:32

you to deal with your fear

21:35

and you can maybe sometimes have a conversation

21:37

about why you are scared and that

21:39

person can offer a different perspective that

21:41

might calm you down.

21:42

It's also worth saying that if your friend is

21:44

really scared of something you or

21:47

they should tell an adult especially

21:50

if the thing they're afraid of seems scary

21:52

or dangerous to you too or if

21:54

they're really not able to control their

21:57

fear. Now remember when Mark

21:59

said there's a certain level of fear

22:01

that's fun and a certain level or type

22:03

of fear that isn't, if you can stay

22:06

in that fun fear range, he

22:08

says it can actually be kind of

22:11

helpful.

22:11

It seems that people who engage or

22:14

people who sort of like Halloween

22:16

or like watching horror movies, they

22:19

seem to learn stuff

22:22

from those movies, not necessarily

22:25

about state of affairs

22:27

in the world, but

22:30

about themselves a lot.

22:32

It seems as if people are

22:35

quite interested in

22:38

feeling emotions,

22:41

feeling this emotion of fear

22:44

in a way that is manageable,

22:47

you could say. It's not very nice to

22:49

feel fear if you are being hunted

22:51

by the neighbor's dog or

22:53

something like that, then it's very, very unpleasant

22:55

to feel fear. But if you

22:58

are in a situation where you pick

23:00

the movie that you want to see and maybe you

23:03

are hanging out with friends and stuff like that, then

23:07

the unpleasant sensation that a horror

23:09

movie can create is

23:12

at the same time accompanied by

23:14

a very enjoyable feeling

23:16

of sort of exploring

23:20

what it is that this

23:22

stimulus or movie is doing to your

23:24

body. So

23:26

that's one of the answers at least, we think.

23:29

And remember how Mark says he studies

23:31

fear and play? It turns out

23:33

a little dose of fear is often

23:36

an important part of play.

23:38

We are looking into the mental and

23:40

physical benefits of recreational

23:42

fear,

23:43

meaning that we are looking to see if children

23:46

that expose themselves to

23:49

fear or that play with fear

23:51

a lot tend

23:53

to become less anxious than

23:55

children who do not engage

23:58

a lot in recreational fear.

23:59

And that doesn't have to mean watching a scary

24:02

movie.

24:02

Engaging in risky play

24:04

is very important for children. And

24:06

risky play is this type of play where

24:09

children might feel a little bit scared

24:12

or a little bit nervous. For

24:14

instance, if you climb really high up a

24:16

tree or drive down

24:19

a hill on your bike a little

24:22

bit too fast maybe, then you might

24:24

get this sensation

24:26

of fear. And there are studies

24:29

that show that children who do

24:31

that a lot, they also tend

24:33

to become less scared than other

24:35

children or less anxious than

24:38

other children.

24:40

So I think

24:42

it's important to

24:45

realize that recreational fear is

24:47

not only something we do at

24:49

Halloween or do when

24:51

we watch horror movies. There

24:54

are many, many instances or many, many

24:57

domains of our life where, in

24:59

particular in children's life, where we can do something

25:01

that's a little bit scary. But doing

25:04

those kinds of or engaging in those forms

25:06

of play,

25:07

we think is actually also something that can be quite

25:10

good for children because it allows

25:12

them

25:13

to practice what it feels like to

25:15

be scared and that in

25:17

turn can help alleviate

25:21

or sort of resist stressful situations

25:24

later on.

25:25

Now, I don't want you to say to yourself

25:27

or to your adults, hey, but why says

25:29

I should go do something dangerous? That's

25:32

not what we're saying at all or

25:34

what Mark is saying. But it's okay

25:37

to feel a little uncomfortable or

25:39

slightly scared if you're doing something

25:41

with adult supervision or some safety precautions.

25:44

Like swinging on a swing set high enough

25:47

that your stomach kind of lurches but

25:49

you know you can still hold on or

25:51

watching a movie that's just a little bit scary

25:54

but still made for people your age.

25:57

Too much fear can make you anxious. things

26:00

that are too risky can be dangerous.

26:03

It's part of the job of the adults in your life to

26:05

let you know where that line is and to

26:07

keep you safe. So ask them to help

26:09

you figure it out and how to help you be just

26:12

a little bit scared. And maybe

26:14

the next time you're worried about what's under the bed, challenge

26:17

yourself to bend down and take a look. That'll

26:20

do it for today. Thanks to Mark Anderson,

26:22

co-director of the Recreational Fear Lab

26:25

at Aarhus University in Denmark for

26:27

helping us understand fear. But

26:30

why is produced by Melody Baudette and me,

26:32

Jane Lindholm. Our engagement producer

26:34

is Kiana Haskin. Our theme music

26:36

is by Luke Reynolds. We make the show

26:38

at Vermont Public and it's distributed by

26:40

PRX. We'll be back in

26:43

two weeks with an all-new episode. Until

26:45

then, stay curious. From

27:03

PRX.