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0:15

Hey, this is Imperfect Paradise,

0:17

the show about hidden worlds and

0:19

messy realities. I'm Antonia

0:21

Serejido. Today we're

0:24

bringing you the first episode of a

0:26

fascinating series called She Has a Name

0:28

from APM Studios. In

0:31

it, executive producer and host Tonya

0:33

Mosley blends investigative journalism and memoir

0:35

to tell the story of her

0:37

sister Anita, who went missing in

0:39

1987. My

0:42

sister's son Antonio was a teenager

0:44

when she disappeared, and he's

0:46

built his entire life around searching for

0:48

his mom. Had you at

0:50

any point held out any

0:53

sliver of hope that your mom

0:55

would be alive? In

0:58

a childish kind of way, I think for

1:02

years I carried that optimism. That's

1:05

the thing about missing persons. There

1:08

is no closure. So, you know,

1:10

your mind goes in many different directions. Tonya

1:15

Mosley joins me now to talk about the

1:17

making of the series. Tonya, thank you so

1:19

much for coming on Imperfect Paradise. Antonia, thank

1:21

you for having me. So

1:23

Tonya, I'm very excited about both

1:26

this show and this conversation because what you do

1:28

with She Has a Name is that

1:30

you do something that we try to

1:32

do here on Imperfect Paradise, which is like tackle the

1:34

true crime genre, but from a

1:36

really ethical and intentional way. So

1:39

I'm curious, what was your relationship to

1:41

true crime prior to taking on this

1:43

project? Well, for

1:45

many years I was a crime and courts

1:48

reporter. So every day I

1:50

would go through the court filings in

1:53

whatever city that I was covering and

1:55

also the crime reports. And

1:57

one of the things that I always noticed, and I

2:00

always felt like was a fault line was

2:02

that I'd never had enough time to spend

2:04

on these cases. And then when it comes

2:06

to true crime in the podcast space, I've

2:08

always loved listening to them, but

2:10

one of the challenges had always been those

2:13

who were directly involved, not being a part of

2:15

the story. And she

2:18

has a name of course is a

2:20

podcast that is about my family, and

2:22

so this was the biggest challenge of

2:24

all for me ethics-wise, is being able

2:26

to tell this story compassionately, ethically, also

2:28

being connected to it, but also putting

2:30

on my journalistic hat. Yeah,

2:32

how did you juggle those different hats? Did

2:34

you have like a game plan going into

2:36

it? You're like, sometimes I'm gonna be me

2:39

and my family, sometimes I'm

2:41

gonna be journalist, Tanya, like what was

2:43

your thinking going through that process? We

2:46

did have a game plan. My producers and I

2:49

were very clear right off the top that

2:51

because I am not only the host, I

2:54

am a participant. I'm a subject. So

2:56

how were we going to take this

2:59

on? In many instances, there were cases

3:01

where my producers were doing

3:03

the interviews and I talked

3:05

about what I wanted from the interviews. We

3:07

talked about what they saw in the story,

3:10

but there was that bit of separation. But

3:12

I will tell you, Antonia, even though we

3:14

went into it with a plan, a lot

3:17

of those plans were thrown out the window.

3:19

Because when you're talking to families that have

3:21

been through something so tragic,

3:23

like this one, there

3:26

are no rules when it comes to

3:28

grief and the way that people process their grief and

3:30

the way they want to talk about it. So in

3:32

many instances, I had family members who said, I only

3:35

want to talk to you about it, Tanya. And

3:38

in those instances, some of the

3:40

challenges there were allowing them

3:42

to be able to tell the breadth and

3:44

depth of their story, but also making certain

3:46

that we have all the details that it's

3:48

not shorthand because when you're talking to family

3:50

members, there's a different type of intimacy. So

3:54

really, this project took much longer than I

3:56

thought because we needed to give space for

3:58

those challenges that we didn't force. When

4:01

did you know that you wanted to take this

4:03

on as a journalistic project? It

4:07

actually came in 2020 when

4:10

my nephew Antonio received a call

4:12

from police that there was a

4:14

DNA match between

4:16

himself and his mother, my

4:18

sister. He had given his

4:21

DNA to Detroit police several years before as part

4:23

of this program where they excavate bodies

4:26

of the unknown at a cemetery outside

4:28

of Detroit. They

4:31

were trying to solve these cold cases. He

4:33

received that call. He called me. I

4:36

was one of the first people he called. Along

4:39

with the call, he just was

4:41

remarking about the number of requests

4:44

from local media to talk to him.

4:46

He wanted guidance on how to talk

4:48

to them. After I

4:50

got to see those stories and how they were

4:52

reported, he and I would just debrief and he

4:54

would say, Tanya, I really have more to say.

4:57

I want to say more. Would you tell my

4:59

mother's story? That's when it

5:01

became real to me. Like, oh, you know what?

5:03

I actually do have the power to tell this

5:05

story and tell it in a way that maybe

5:07

could never be told anywhere else. Did

5:10

any part of it scare you? Do you have

5:12

any trepidation going into this project? I'm

5:15

scared at this moment, Antonia. Why

5:18

do you scare it up? This

5:21

is such a personal story. It's such

5:23

an intimate story. There's so many details

5:25

about my family that the public will

5:27

now hear and know. I'm

5:31

scared because I'm vulnerable. My family members

5:33

that I care about so much are

5:35

vulnerable and open. It's a

5:37

real lesson for me and a reminder of

5:39

what my subjects, as a journalist that I

5:42

interact with every day, put

5:44

themselves out on the line to do for us.

5:47

I also know the power of it. I know

5:49

when you're open and vulnerable and you

5:51

share your story, there is connection. There's

5:54

a human connection that we all are

5:57

able to tap into. Even

6:00

if other people's stories aren't like ours,

6:02

everyone has dealt with grief, everyone has

6:04

dealt with loss, everyone has dealt

6:06

with a mystery in either their lives or

6:08

people they know. And so being able

6:10

to put ourselves out like this

6:13

allows the audience to

6:15

reflect on their own lives. So,

6:18

I mean, I'm really nervous about that, but

6:20

I've already heard from people who say that

6:22

they're deeply moved by it. And you know

6:24

that you've done a good job when people

6:26

start telling you other stories, when they start

6:28

telling you their own stories. That

6:31

is when I know that what we're doing is

6:33

working. But yeah, I'm afraid. Well,

6:37

I'm really impressed by the, I think the writing

6:39

in the series is also really beautiful. And I

6:41

just, I really appreciate how the people

6:43

come to life in the descriptions, but also

6:46

how reflective you are of yourself. Yeah,

6:48

you described what you liked to wear when

6:50

growing up or what your classmates were like

6:52

or, you know, I just, I felt that

6:54

the descriptions were really vivid and that you

6:56

were very reflective on your own self and

6:58

your own thinking of yourself,

7:00

which I thought was, I thought that was

7:03

very vulnerable and really moving. Well,

7:05

thank you. I mean, we also

7:07

have to walk the walk as journalists. We're asking

7:09

that of other people to paint a picture, to

7:12

tell a story. And I want people to feel

7:14

like they're along with me. And

7:16

so in order to do that, you

7:18

know, audio and podcasting is such an

7:20

intimate experience. People are going on

7:22

this journey. They might as well go all in and

7:24

be there in that time and space with us. And

7:28

so with that, here is Tanya Mosley with

7:30

She Has a Name, episode one, Unknown Woman,

7:34

And stick around till the end because Tanya will

7:36

be back with me after the episode. Just

7:39

a heads up. On this podcast,

7:41

we discuss some heavy topics, including murder

7:44

and other acts of violence. Listen

7:46

or discretion is advised. When

7:55

the cops don't listen, a reporter is

7:57

the next best thing. I

8:00

learned that very early in my career as

8:02

a journalist. People come

8:04

to me for help to solve all sorts

8:06

of things, to understand an

8:09

issue, right or wrong, expose a

8:11

fraud, or find a person who

8:13

has vanished without a trace. And

8:16

without being overly sentimental, there

8:18

is so much power in having your

8:20

story told to millions of people on

8:22

TV or the radio. It

8:25

says, what happened to me matters, because

8:27

I matter. Which

8:30

is why the stories that haunt me the most are

8:32

the ones about people who have

8:35

been begging, sometimes for years, to be

8:37

heard. Like the families

8:39

of missing people. The ones

8:41

we hear about are just a fraction of

8:43

the thousands who disappear every single day. This

8:46

is where Dogg Ross Katie sent. As you

8:48

can see, it's about 100 yards away from

8:50

the Dollar General. This is also

8:52

where authorities believe Katie's abductor... That was

8:55

me in 2004 reporting on the case

8:57

of a missing girl from Louisville, Kentucky.

8:59

I was just a few years out of college, and this

9:01

was one of my very first TV jobs.

9:05

But it was a phone call I received

9:07

the first week I started that would turn

9:09

out to be one of the most important

9:11

stories of my life. I'll

9:14

tell you in that moment, I just remember when you

9:16

answered the phone. I just kind of remember you saying

9:18

hello. I

9:20

was like, oh wow. Like

9:23

your voice. It was something about your voice that was

9:25

so familiar to me. He

9:29

said, my name is Antonio, and

9:31

I am your nephew. Now

9:34

this was crazy because I grew

9:36

up with a baby brother, and he couldn't possibly

9:38

have a son because he was just 12 years

9:40

old at the time of this phone call. I

9:43

honestly thought this guy had the wrong

9:45

Tanya. Until he said, your

9:48

father gave me your number. You

9:51

know, I just remember he was

9:53

adamant about us talking. I

9:56

barely knew my father just

9:59

a few years. for this phone call in

10:01

2004, he and I had connected for only

10:03

the second time in my life, and

10:06

I certainly didn't know his other children. So

10:09

as I listened to Antonio speak, a surge

10:11

of adrenaline ran through me. His

10:14

mother, I'd learned, was my

10:16

father's eldest daughter. Was

10:20

it finally happening? Was

10:23

I going to finally get to know the mystery

10:25

that has always been the other side of my

10:27

family, the other side of me? I'd

10:34

left Detroit a long time ago to embark

10:36

on a career as a journalist, but

10:39

the truth is I'd also left Detroit

10:41

because of a broken heart. My

10:43

family chose Motown during the Great

10:45

Migration because of its promise

10:47

of middle class prosperity. And

10:50

here I was decades later, a nomad,

10:52

believing that dream could never be fulfilled

10:55

for me if I stayed. Antonio

11:01

dropped the next revelation just as my

11:03

mind began to spiral. Not

11:05

only was his mother my sister, she

11:08

was also missing. And

11:11

this call was a plea, one of many

11:13

he'd made over the years, in

11:15

the search for his mother and the other

11:17

side of himself. What were

11:19

you searching for when you contacted me? My

11:22

aunt, you. And

11:25

it was just crazy because the more

11:30

I realized who you were, the

11:32

more I just knew that you knew

11:35

who I was. Like

11:39

if we could get to that level of

11:41

conversation that we probably

11:43

would both discover something new.

11:48

You know, exactly, exactly.

12:00

Truth Be Told presents, She Has a

12:02

Name, a podcast about

12:04

the disappearance of a sister

12:07

I never got to know. Antonio

12:10

found me after years of searching for his mom

12:12

on his own, and now I'm here

12:14

to help him find answers. And

12:16

along the way, we're doing something

12:18

we never expected. Over

12:21

the next 10 episodes, Antonio and

12:23

I will explore what it really takes

12:26

to mend broken family ties and

12:28

heal in the face of unimaginable

12:30

loss. Digging up buried

12:32

secrets we've hidden from

12:34

ourselves and each other. This

12:38

is episode one, an identified woman,

12:40

1987. Feeling

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charge. After

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that initial phone call in May

15:00

of 2004, Antonio and I instantly became

15:03

like family, and he seemed to

15:05

be just as giddy to see pieces of himself in me

15:07

as I did in him. Yeah,

15:10

you know what? Sometimes when I look at you,

15:12

I'll be like, oh my God. You got all

15:16

the best features, you know. It just

15:19

kind of, it's mind-boggling. It really is. That's

15:23

just funny you say, I mean, I don't know if

15:25

that's true, but I do think that's true.

15:28

Yeah, I don't even know what that means. Because

15:30

when I say I see myself in you, I

15:32

just, I think that was when we

15:35

met all those years ago. I was

15:39

so impressed because, yeah, I just,

15:41

I, your drive,

15:43

your love of

15:45

learning, your

15:47

intense desire to know, those

15:51

are things that are Nate and me. And

15:53

so seeing them in you was

15:56

just gratifying. It was just like me putting another

15:58

piece of myself together. Yeah,

16:01

I feel the same way. You know, I felt

16:03

like we're a new beginning,

16:06

so to speak. So

16:09

it's divine on so many levels. You know what

16:11

I'm saying?

16:18

Back then, Antonio was in school

16:20

at Central Michigan University, finishing up

16:22

a bachelor's degree in business administration.

16:24

And I was moving from

16:26

city to city as a local television reporter. We

16:29

both shared the same level of ambition. During

16:32

our talks, Antonio would share all

16:34

the ways he was going to use

16:36

his degree to rebuild Detroit. He

16:39

knows the city inside and out. So

16:41

McNichols here is actually six miles. You won't

16:44

really see a sign that says six miles,

16:46

but it's just noted that this is six.

16:49

And one mile down is actually seven miles. So

16:51

that street is called seven miles, and

16:53

then eight miles, then et cetera, nine miles,

16:55

10 miles. So eight

16:57

miles. The same thing we'd have about the city made

17:00

me feel closer to home and to him. There

17:03

was one thing he still does that

17:05

initially made me uncomfortable when we first

17:07

met his use of the

17:09

word auntie. Auntie, you know how we do

17:11

it. Well, I love you, Auntie. I love you. I

17:14

love you. I love you. It

17:16

didn't feel natural back then to be called auntie. For

17:19

one, the age difference. Back then, we

17:21

were both in our 20s, and I'm five years younger

17:23

than him. More than

17:25

anything, being called auntie felt

17:29

so significant. My

17:31

aunts growing up were the next best thing

17:33

to my mom. It's a

17:35

title that's earned. So it

17:38

felt overwhelming to receive this designation from

17:40

Antonio so easily.

17:43

But I didn't protest, especially

17:45

after learning more about his mother

17:48

than the last time he saw her. All

17:51

accounts, you know, a pretty good day. Typical

17:54

for me, just, you know, school and everything

17:56

like that. The

18:05

year was 1987 and the

18:07

dog days had arrived in Detroit. The

18:10

sun's beams bouncing off the concrete

18:12

radiating a heat that felt especially

18:14

brutal. 14-year-old Antonio

18:16

was restless. He

18:19

and his mother lived together in a small apartment on the

18:21

west side of the city and asleep

18:23

over at his cousin's house across town felt

18:26

like the perfect antidote. You know

18:28

I had to ask for permission basically and

18:31

I knew if I called on the phone you know she

18:33

would definitely say no so I had to go home and

18:35

ask. She was that type of person. So

18:37

I went home and just hung out around the house

18:40

and she was in a good mood. I remember she

18:42

was listening to some music

18:44

and hiding it up and she seemed

18:46

like she was in a good space

18:48

and so that's when I

18:50

asked. She was like

18:52

yeah it's fine basically. But

18:55

then you know kind of gave me the talk

18:57

before I left and that was to me I

18:59

think that was probably the oddest thing because she

19:01

would do that from time to time but I

19:04

didn't understand why then. What was the talk? Oh

19:07

she loves me and like we all we

19:09

got. After

19:13

spending the weekend with his cousins Antonio

19:15

returned to an empty apartment. That

19:18

wasn't unusual that his mother wasn't there. Maybe

19:21

she was running errands he thought are working late. But

19:24

as the hours turned into days and

19:27

days into months a

19:29

darker reality began to set in. Something

19:32

was wrong. Antonio's

19:34

mother it seemed was never

19:36

coming home. Had

19:39

you at any point held out any

19:42

sliver of hope that your mom would

19:45

be alive? In

19:48

a childish kind of way I think for

19:51

years I carried that optimism. That's

19:56

the thing about missing persons there

19:58

is no closure. So, you know,

20:00

your mind goes in many different directions. Almost

20:05

immediately after his mother vanished, Antonio

20:08

became a detective, fixating

20:10

on theories, following hunches, meeting

20:13

with police and interviewing

20:15

family and friends. Kind of like

20:17

we're doing now. Yeah. You know,

20:19

just kind of open up that space, you know,

20:21

because for some of these people, that was reopening

20:23

wounds for them, too. One

20:26

year in the mid 2000s, Antonio even

20:28

managed to get a meeting with the

20:30

FBI, which didn't yield much.

20:33

He felt like they didn't take him seriously. And

20:37

that was weird because that was the time they were

20:39

digging up Hoffa again. And

20:41

so I had some colorful words to

20:45

the FBI agent when he kind of was

20:47

a bit dismissive. He

20:49

thought, how could authorities spend decades

20:52

digging all over the Midwest for a

20:54

notorious crime leader like Jimmy Hoffa and

20:57

not search for a missing mother? In

21:04

the 20 years we've known each other,

21:06

Antonio and I have celebrated many milestones

21:08

together. He was there for

21:10

my wedding reception and both of my children's

21:13

baby showers. I

21:15

love being at Tanya at his kids

21:17

birthday parties and our youngest boys

21:20

look forward

21:23

to playing with each other every summer when we go home

21:25

to visit. But the extent of what

21:27

I knew about his mom and his

21:29

life before finding me has always

21:32

been vague for years. All

21:34

I really knew of her besides the story

21:36

of her disappearance was a faded photo

21:39

that he brought with him the first time we

21:41

met in the United States. In it, she's young

21:43

and vibrant, petite with beautiful black hair adorned by

21:46

a white flower.

21:48

Her eyes are smiling back at the camera. The

21:52

details he would share over the years would come like

21:55

a slow trickle. until

22:00

one Sunday in February of 2020, when

22:03

the dam finally burst. A

22:32

palindrome. A number

22:35

that reads the same backwards as forwards.

22:38

Some say it can signify the cycle of

22:40

life. A message from the

22:42

universe. And in this case, the

22:44

grave. Shannon Jones from

22:46

DPD, the reason we're here. The

22:49

phone call was from the Detroit

22:51

Police Department. All

22:54

of this time, three decades, Antonio's

22:57

mom was just outside of the city,

23:00

buried in a cemetery for people

23:03

with no dental records, fingerprints,

23:06

or family. Ironically,

23:09

right near where I was working at the time, so it

23:11

was so weird. Yeah, I was like, wow, I kind of

23:13

know that area. Antonio's

23:16

mother was less than a mile away

23:18

from his job, a

23:20

place he'd drive by every single day

23:23

for years. This

23:25

is something that started as a crazy

23:27

idea that we discussed. That's

23:30

Detroit Police Detective Sergeant Shannon

23:32

Jones, giving a pep talk

23:34

to a team of forensic experts at

23:37

the United Memorial Garden Cemetery. We've done

23:39

over 200 in the past five years.

23:41

200 and we've been able

23:43

to unite just around

23:45

right around 20 families through DNA

23:47

and then like another 10 just

23:49

by rebetting all the case files

23:52

before we even had to dig them, we were

23:54

able to identify them. So I want to thank

23:56

everybody for taking time away from your family. These

23:59

forensic experts. are also anthropologists.

24:02

For five years, they've been digging at this

24:04

cemetery, recovering shoes and bits

24:06

of clothing, which gets them

24:09

closer to finding bone to test for

24:11

DNA. If there is something,

24:13

maybe a vertebra or something like that, or I don't

24:15

know, is that human-sucking? Something

24:18

that's not cracked? Sergeant

24:21

Jones has served as one of the lead detectives for

24:23

about a decade now, investigating missing

24:26

persons in Detroit. And

24:28

there were these cases that just got under her

24:30

skin, cases that she couldn't get

24:32

traction on, some dating all the way

24:34

back to the 1940s. Edge

24:37

at 11, start. What

24:40

if we just took DNA

24:43

from every unidentified person that

24:45

we had and get it submitted,

24:48

and once it's there, anybody that ever

24:50

comes to report their family missing, if

24:52

they submit DNA, we could

24:54

possibly make more connections. Antonio

24:56

heard about the program from his girlfriend's

24:58

mother, who'd seen Sergeant Jones talking about

25:00

it on the news. It's

25:03

the first of its kind in the nation, and

25:05

they call it Operation United,

25:07

which stands for Unknown Names

25:10

Identified Through Exclamation and DNA.

25:13

Now, needless to say, Antonio

25:15

was leery about giving authorities his

25:17

DNA, but he'd also heard so

25:19

many great stories about how science

25:21

was bringing families together. So he gave

25:23

it a shot. And

25:25

four years later, Antonio and

25:28

his mom were Operation United's

25:30

first match. In

25:34

2019, that's when we did the estimation of

25:36

Anita, and we had like 12 other

25:39

homicide cases that we were able to find that year. She

25:42

was the first one that came back. Anita

25:45

Wiley was her name, and

25:48

finding her was not only important to us,

25:51

it was a linchpin for Operation United,

25:54

because this cemetery, United

25:57

Memorial, kept scattered records,

26:00

buried many unidentified bodies very close to

26:02

or on top of each other. Couple

26:06

that with the elements. Rain and

26:08

snow and heat and cold shift the ground

26:10

and as tree roots grow, they

26:13

squish the unidentified buried bodies

26:15

together. Making all

26:17

of these makeshift markers and maps created

26:19

for this cemetery? More of

26:21

a guessing game than an exact science. A

26:25

lot of math out here on measurements

26:27

like when it helps anytime you

26:29

get that successful name that comes

26:32

back, you can look

26:34

back and say, okay, this person was buried on this

26:36

day and this

26:38

was grave number, you know, 200. Now

26:40

we're looking for grave 190. We need to go,

26:43

you know, X amount of feet this way. When

26:46

Antonio got the call from Sergeant Jones February

26:48

day in 2020, he wasted no time. He

26:53

jumped in his car. Fast tank literally

26:55

on E and raced down to

26:57

police headquarters to hear the rest. He

27:00

finally had answers to where

27:02

his mother had been all of this time. When

27:05

she, you know, we feel like we

27:08

found your mom, joy

27:10

and pain, right? Just

27:13

a whole ball of emotions. And of

27:15

course I was still with about it in the moment. You

27:18

know, I couldn't, you know, I

27:20

got to stay buttoned up, so to speak. I

27:22

just remember like, uh, when

27:25

I was walking out and I got in the

27:27

elevator, man, I just melt it. I

27:29

hope that wasn't called on camera. Why?

27:32

Why? Oh

27:36

man, I can't even explain. I

27:39

haven't cried since I was a kid, you

27:41

know, but I definitely cried

27:43

that day. I

27:48

went straight to the cemetery, uh, straight to

27:50

my mom. Like

27:53

always soon after Antonio

27:55

called to share the news with me. Reporters

27:59

were calling him for news. interview. But he

28:01

wanted me to be the one to tell the full story. Now

28:03

this is trust. This

28:12

really feels for the first time like I'm

28:14

starting to fill the role of Auntie. Anita's

28:18

story is now in my hands. To

28:21

let her name and her story be

28:24

known. The

28:39

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now at laist.com/ Suites. So

29:30

now I'm here with my producers back home

29:32

in Detroit trying to help

29:34

Antonio figure out how Anita could have

29:37

ended up buried in a cemetery for

29:39

unidentified people. When Antonio and

29:41

other family members have been searching

29:43

for her all of this time. Hi

29:46

Sergeant Jones. How are you? I'm Tanya.

29:48

Alright. Finally nice to meet

29:51

you in person. That's your truth. Great. Have

29:53

you ever... The first stop is police headquarters.

29:56

A sleek new office building in the heart

29:58

of downtown. from

30:00

the old grimy headquarters on Bobian where

30:03

police were stationed during the city's most

30:05

violent periods. The lobby

30:07

feels different than I had imagined, less

30:09

Beverly Hills Cop and more like a community

30:12

center. So much

30:14

of Detroit feels new and clean,

30:16

especially in the downtown area. Very

30:19

different from how it was when I was growing up here

30:21

in the 80s and 90s. There

30:24

was literally nothing here but abandoned buildings

30:26

and boarded up storefronts. Katherine

30:30

Jones leads me into a conference room. Her

30:32

dark hair is pulled back into a

30:34

tight ponytail and her facial expression is

30:37

stoic, matching her reputation

30:39

of being all about business. How

30:42

do you describe yourself? I

30:47

don't know how I can tell you how others would describe me.

30:53

I'm very dedicated. Those

30:55

who have worked with her, like retired

30:58

Detroit detective Ira Todd, describe her as

31:00

being all about connecting the

31:02

dots. The two worked

31:04

together about a decade ago on a

31:06

homicide case before Operation United. Shannon

31:09

is one of those people that when she got

31:11

an investigation she had a taste for, the thirst for

31:14

it. And you know we used to call her a

31:16

little weird, you know, because I'm telling you, we used

31:18

to tease her about it. But you know she got

31:20

all these bones that she would dig up all around

31:22

her desk and things like that and she was really

31:24

into it. Sergeant

31:28

Jones took over Antonio's case after he

31:30

submitted DNA back in 2016. And

31:33

with her fresh eyes and determination to solve

31:35

cases, I hope being here

31:38

allows me to get a step further than

31:40

he was able to all of those years

31:42

ago when authorities brushed him off. Right

31:46

away, Sergeant Jones tells me that police in

31:48

1987 likely found Anita's body a

31:52

few months after she disappeared. Though

31:55

it's really hard to know. Anita's

31:58

family says they filed missing

32:00

persons report. But Sergeant Jones

32:02

says they have no record of

32:05

it, which isn't surprising because so

32:07

many of Detroit's records have been

32:09

destroyed by floods or fire. Can

32:13

you tell us a little bit more about where she

32:15

was found and how she was found? Yeah,

32:17

so she was found when the fire

32:20

department went and responded to a vacant house that was

32:22

set on fire. Were

32:24

you able to identify manner of death? They

32:27

were able to identify. I believe she was

32:29

ruled strangulation. Anita

32:34

was murdered. It's

32:36

what we all figured. No way

32:38

she'd ever leave her family and her son

32:40

like that. But

32:42

confirming it doesn't make it any easier.

32:45

Whoever killed her, Sergeant Jones believes,

32:49

likely did it before hiding her body in a

32:52

vacant house and

32:54

setting it on fire. So

32:56

her body was found, but it wasn't

32:59

a news item at

33:01

that time. They did do stuff back then. And

33:07

it would just be like a little article in the

33:09

paper where I would say like unknown

33:11

female or unknown man recovered in the

33:14

field. But it's just like a news brief or so.

33:16

It'll be like a little thing off to the right

33:18

that, you know, with a

33:20

description of what they know. And that would be

33:24

their job to do that, push it out,

33:26

to try to get some type of family

33:28

to maybe read it or see it and then come in.

33:31

I think everybody read

33:33

the newspaper back then as opposed to

33:35

now. You

33:37

can search things, right? I

33:41

knew I wouldn't find a full news report on

33:43

her disappearance and murder, but I

33:45

scoured the newspaper archives fully expecting to

33:48

find at least a brief about Anita's

33:50

body being found. I couldn't

33:53

find it. Just like there

33:55

are no records of the family's missing persons report

33:57

from 1987. What

34:00

I did find were more than a

34:02

dozen briefs from the 80s of house

34:04

fires with bodies inside. 686

34:08

people were murdered the year Anita disappeared, one

34:11

of the highest counts in the city's history. Detroit,

34:14

by the way, has a crazy history when

34:17

it comes to fire. Did

34:19

you know that in 1805, the

34:21

entire city went up in flames? Fire

34:24

literally destroyed the whole city. And have

34:26

you heard of Devil's Night? It's died

34:28

down now, but for years, especially in

34:31

the 80s, the night before Halloween, people

34:33

would take to the streets and just

34:35

burn things down. Looking

34:38

through these newspaper archives, I

34:40

can also see that fire was a

34:42

really common way for criminals to destroy

34:44

the evidence of their crimes. Was

34:48

it a reality, like, that they couldn't get to all

34:50

of them? Oh yeah, definitely. You

34:53

gotta understand, back then, people were killing people, putting

34:55

them in houses, like, remember seeing the wire? It

34:57

was like that. I mean, people don't realize a

34:59

lot of those stories aren't true. We used to

35:02

watch the wire and say, man, that's just like

35:04

how it was in Detroit back then. It

35:06

was like a lot of crime going on. Ira

35:11

Todd and I met at the Norwest movie theater

35:13

on the northwest side of Detroit when I was

35:15

in high school. I was working

35:17

concessions, and he was moonlighting as security.

35:20

But I knew of him

35:22

even before that, because in 1994, when he was

35:25

a Detroit police detective, he was

35:27

all over the news after being

35:30

acquitted of shooting and killing an

35:32

unarmed Cuban immigrant during a drug

35:34

investigation. People don't realize when you kill

35:36

somebody, a piece of you die, because you're

35:38

never the same again. So that person that you

35:40

was, never there again. Ira

35:44

is now in his 60s and very

35:46

reflective about his past and his time

35:48

on the Detroit police force, which

35:50

is why I called on him, because

35:52

I knew he could give me the

35:54

real deal on what the police department

35:57

was like when Anita disappeared. How

36:00

did the police department

36:03

handle the death and murder? Like

36:05

from the inside, what was the view when you've got

36:08

a death toll that high, like counting up to 700

36:10

lives in a year? Oh

36:13

yeah, you dealt with it. And I'll

36:15

tell you something, you had some of the baddest homicide

36:17

cops back then, and

36:19

you dealt with it, but it was just happening so

36:21

much. You dealt with it as you

36:23

could. You saw the ones you could and the ones you

36:25

couldn't. You just didn't fall asleep, you know, you fall away.

36:29

Hearing Iris say just so bluntly

36:32

that crime was so bad that

36:34

sometimes cases like your sister's, they

36:36

fell by the wayside. It

36:39

feels like confirmation of something

36:41

we always knew and

36:44

insights into what Antonio was likely up

36:46

against during all those years of searching

36:49

before Sergeant Jones took over. This

37:03

is the area. My

37:10

producers and I decide to visit the

37:12

area that Sergeant Jones told us about

37:14

where Anita's remains were found. Wanda

37:17

Street near Highland Park, a city within

37:19

a city that spans about six

37:21

miles smack dab in the middle of Detroit.

37:25

When I was a kid, a serial killer

37:27

named Benjamin Atkins murdered

37:29

11 women and would dump their

37:31

bodies in fields and vacant houses

37:33

and alleyways throughout the area. I

37:36

was obsessed with these murders growing up, just

37:39

transfixed by the details. News

37:42

articles described the victims as sex workers

37:44

and drug addicts. And

37:46

it always felt like to me that

37:48

the news was using their circumstances as

37:51

a reason for their murders. A

37:54

reason for people like me to rest easy. A

37:57

reason something like this, it never

37:59

happens. to me. All

38:03

right, this is the area. This

38:07

is it. Gosh,

38:10

like there's... You

38:13

can't even imagine what this street probably looked like

38:15

before. Like all of this, all

38:18

of these were houses, all of these lots.

38:21

I don't really know what I'm looking for.

38:24

I just want to see and feel, maybe

38:27

retrace Anita's steps. That's

38:32

about it. I'm

38:35

gonna get

38:43

out. Wanda Street and this neighborhood aren't

38:45

too different from the one I grew

38:47

up in off of Seven Mile on

38:49

the northwest side. Most of

38:51

the houses are gone. The lots

38:53

are overgrown with tall grass and wild flowers.

38:56

But I can still make out the bones. I

38:59

can envision what was once here. In

39:02

between the vacant lots are these

39:04

well-tended homes with manicured lawns. The

39:08

street is so quiet. I

39:11

think about what Sergeant Jones said that

39:15

probably by the time she

39:17

even got here, she was dead. So

39:21

this is just like a depot. It's just

39:23

like where you just drop off. You

39:27

just drop off your trash. She was just

39:29

considered trash here. It's

39:34

really wild. When I was a

39:36

teenager, I used to take the bus

39:38

downtown on Saturdays for this college prep program.

39:41

And the bus would pass right through this area. And

39:44

every single time, I think about

39:46

that serial killer, Benjamin Atkins. Even

39:50

though the news described the victims as

39:52

sex workers and addicts, knowing

39:54

that detail never made me feel like it

39:56

couldn't happen to me. Seeing

39:59

their faces felt like a reflection of my own.

40:02

I knew, even as a kid, that

40:05

their stories were more than I'd ever know.

40:08

So I kind of lived with this low-lying

40:10

anxiety, this fear, that I could be one

40:12

of the many stories we'd see on the

40:14

news each night. Only

40:17

later would I come to understand how Anita

40:19

could have ended up here. But

40:22

in this moment, as we're standing on

40:24

Wanda Street, I can't

40:27

even describe how I feel. But

40:30

the fate of a sister of mine was

40:32

the one I've spent all of my life

40:35

being afraid of. Wait,

40:42

hold on just a sec. Let's come down here a little

40:44

bit. Excuse

40:47

me. A

40:50

guy walking into one of the homes waves at us.

40:52

His name is Cortez Merritt, and he's lived on

40:54

this street all of his life. He

40:57

would have been about four or five when Anita was brought

40:59

here. What was this street like

41:01

back then? It was nice. It

41:03

was a house. That's my auntie's

41:05

house. That's my cousin's house. It's my

41:07

grandma's house. I grew up in it. But

41:09

she passed away two years ago, so I took

41:12

over. It was just more houses. It was

41:14

a nice one. That used

41:16

to be an elementary school over there. So

41:20

it was a lot of people. It was a nice one. It

41:22

still is. It's just quiet. When you

41:24

hear that somebody discarded

41:26

a body and set the house on fire,

41:28

does that surprise you? No.

41:31

We didn't find it. There's been so much

41:33

stuff around here. Transgenders,

41:37

transgenders been found dead over here.

41:40

Why do you think they choose this area,

41:43

this place? It ain't just this

41:45

area. It's

41:47

everywhere. It just depends on how long

41:49

it takes for somebody to find it. But

41:53

it's a regular, normal way. Cortez's

42:01

outlook is so Detroit. Detroiters

42:04

know that two things can be true about a

42:06

place. Spend enough time

42:08

with my mother and she'll find a

42:10

way to get in her favorite quote that speaks

42:12

to this. Charles

42:14

Dickens, uh, it was

42:16

the best of times and the worst

42:19

of times. It was the season of

42:21

light. It was the season of darkness.

42:24

It was the spring of hope. It

42:26

was the winter of despair. It

42:29

resonates with me so much because

42:32

out of the worst struggle,

42:34

it's always good that

42:36

comes out of it. If you can

42:38

endure it, you know, if

42:41

you can go through it, you

42:43

always come out better. I

42:46

know why she loves that Charles Dickens quote so

42:48

much. It pretty much sums

42:50

up life and what it means to be

42:52

from Detroit. And I'm

42:54

thinking about what it means for me and

42:56

Antonio. What terrible

42:58

truths will we have to face in order

43:01

to get to the other side and what

43:04

discoveries about ourselves will

43:06

we be forced to confront? You

43:09

know, the thing I'm really surprised by, not

43:12

surprised by, but was

43:14

unexpected when we decided to

43:16

tell the story, to

43:18

tell this story is just

43:23

how much healing we have

43:25

to do as we move through. We're just

43:27

like openness to healing. Yeah.

43:35

And that, you know, that's taken some time. And

43:38

with that time, I'll come

43:40

to learn things Antonio has kept close to

43:43

his chest for decades, revelations

43:46

about himself and his mother, secrets

43:48

that I'll only come to know through the

43:51

making of this podcast. Why

43:53

do you think you hesitated early

43:55

on when we first met and

43:58

telling me like the full details

44:00

about your mother's

44:02

disappearance. It's heartbreaking.

44:05

I didn't want to break your heart. This

44:14

season when she has a name, who

44:17

was Anita? And what details

44:19

about her short life can help

44:21

us make sense of why she was murdered?

44:24

She was always self-motivated. Earlier,

44:26

she was just a natural

44:28

bone hustler. You know, after her

44:30

mom died and dad left us, she just

44:33

knew what to do. Throughout

44:35

this season, Antonio and I dive

44:37

into the underbelly of Detroit, exploring

44:40

the impacts of the city's economic

44:42

collapse and how the false

44:44

promise of prosperity during the crack cocaine

44:47

era might have led Anita down

44:49

a dark path. I'm telling my last

44:51

words to my sister was, don't go,

44:53

please don't go, because I ain't

44:55

gonna never see you again. What does a young

44:57

boy hold onto when his mother is gone? A

45:00

version of her and himself that

45:03

is sometimes rooted in the instinct for

45:05

survival versus the truth. I guess at

45:08

first it was my mom

45:10

died of cancer, but then like slowly

45:13

over time, there would be

45:15

these little clues that made me think, that's

45:17

not what happened. And as we

45:20

look to authorities to solve this 37-year-old

45:22

cold case, we ask ourselves

45:24

the toughest question of all, will

45:27

it be possible to heal if

45:30

we never truly know who killed Anita?

45:34

We're back with Tanya Mosley, the host

45:36

of She Has Name. Welcome back, Tanya.

45:39

Thank you. I've only heard the

45:41

first two episodes, so I'm very excited about

45:43

where this story is gonna go. One

45:46

question I have is how

45:48

important to you when you were going into investigating

45:50

this was the question of solving.

45:53

The murder. Solving

45:57

the case, believe it or not, was the least.

46:00

important thing for me, but I can't

46:02

say that for other family members, including

46:04

Antonio, who is along for

46:06

this journey with me. He wants to be

46:08

able to solve this case. And you can

46:10

understand it because now that he understands where

46:13

his mother has been all of this time,

46:15

now he wants to understand who did it

46:17

and make that person pay

46:20

for what they did. But for

46:23

me, the bigger

46:25

thing that I want to be

46:27

able to explore in this podcast

46:29

is what does healing look like

46:31

without absolution, without answers? Because

46:33

that's life. There's so many things that

46:36

we don't have resolved. We don't ever

46:38

get resolved in our lifetime. Will

46:40

we hold on to that forever and let

46:42

that eat us up? Or will we find

46:44

a place where maybe

46:47

it is not closure, but it

46:49

is a way to cope through and move through the

46:51

world when you know you may not

46:53

have answers? Has

46:56

your definition of healing changed through this process?

46:58

Did you have an idea of it before

47:00

and now that you've done more work in

47:03

terms of understanding who your sister was? Has it

47:05

changed for you? Absolutely.

47:08

Because I think I'm learning what healing

47:11

means overall. I think

47:14

that we put too much emphasis

47:16

on healing

47:18

means solving. There's

47:20

a finality to it. There's something

47:22

that on the other side of

47:25

it, it's going to look clear. We're going to

47:27

feel a certain way. I think healing is a

47:29

process that is a lifelong process. What

47:31

this podcast has done for my family is allow

47:33

us to open up and talk about things that

47:36

we haven't talked about before. So many

47:38

families understand this. There's something that tragic

47:40

has happened in their lives and their

47:43

families. In some instances, especially

47:45

previous generations, especially those who were

47:47

of age in the 70s and

47:50

80s and 90s, dealing

47:54

with grief looked a lot different. In

47:56

many instances, it was this idea of

47:58

moving on. that there

48:01

is a certain amount of time that you grieve and

48:03

then you heal from that grief and then

48:06

you move on. But we know that healing

48:08

is a lifelong process. And I have

48:10

seen that through the

48:12

making of this podcast because once those

48:14

10 episodes are over, we still have

48:16

life to live and we'll still be

48:18

working through this with each other. Yeah.

48:22

One detail in the podcast that is

48:24

just amazing is the detail of your,

48:26

the imaginary Anita. Yeah.

48:29

You had this image of a sister

48:31

named Anita. When did

48:33

you put two and two together? Was there a moment

48:35

where you're like, oh yeah, as a child, I had

48:37

this memory. How did that come up for you? Almost

48:40

immediately, once I found out

48:42

I had a sister that I

48:44

didn't know, I

48:46

remember at that time in elementary school when I

48:48

was telling people I had an older sister and

48:51

her name was Anita. One

48:53

detail about that name is that it was

48:55

extremely popular in the 80s and 90s. And

48:58

there was a famous R&B singer, Anita

49:00

Baker who I absolutely love and adored.

49:02

So that was a big part of

49:05

it, I think. But it

49:07

is also very eerie to hear and

49:09

to know that I actually did have

49:11

a big sister named Anita.

49:13

I mean, that's amazing. And

49:15

also just speaks to, I don't know. Yeah, like the, when the

49:19

unspoken ties that you have to your

49:21

family, that the like ephemeral aspects

49:23

of, yeah, how we relate to

49:25

our histories. I believe that

49:27

and I believe that to be true.

49:30

I mean, I'm

49:32

a woo woo person. And so I do

49:34

believe that so many things have meaning. And

49:36

I don't think it was just by coincidence

49:38

as a child that I felt that. And

49:41

I've talked to a lot of family

49:43

members about whether maybe when I was

49:45

younger, did someone tell me, did I

49:47

hear that I had a sister and I didn't know

49:49

it? No one can say

49:51

that. My mother had no idea either. She

49:54

found out just like me that I had

49:56

a sister on my father's side. No.

49:59

Well, The other thing that is more in episode

50:01

two but I can also sense that you have

50:04

this. With. Antonio. There's

50:06

this feeling of like. He

50:08

reached out here to tell this story

50:10

and at when when you felt betrayed

50:12

because he felt he only told you

50:15

certain aspects and curious when you started.

50:18

Doing. The investigation. You're saying that for hims

50:20

solving a murder was really important. What did

50:22

you feel like you owed him in this.

50:25

Year. People. Come to me

50:27

a lot as you heard in that podcast. People

50:29

come to me for help. For.

50:31

A lotta things they need help to figure

50:33

out things they need help on getting folks

50:36

to talk to them about something that they

50:38

looking into. and with Antonio. I took this

50:40

very seriously because I knew that he was

50:42

a wounded son and looking for answers so

50:44

I wanted to do right by him. I

50:46

wanted to do right by my sister. And

50:48

one of the things about that is before

50:50

we even started the production of this podcast

50:52

I wanted to make sure I knew every

50:54

single thing I could Now. And

50:57

as you will learn in this podcast

50:59

I did not learn everything that I

51:01

wanted to know before embarking on this.

51:04

It was through the production that I

51:06

learned so many key details about a

51:08

need a slice and Antonio size and

51:11

initially I was upset by that. I

51:13

felt in many ways betrayed that he

51:15

hadn't told me those details that you

51:18

know let through this process. But I

51:20

also learned is that. When.

51:23

You're grieving. You.

51:25

Hold on to elements to the. Story that help

51:27

you move through your lies. And.

51:29

He's been telling himself a story

51:31

about his mother for over thirty

51:33

years to help him pope and

51:35

move through life. so it wasn't

51:37

that he was. Purposely.

51:40

Omitting things, it was that those things

51:42

had consciously come up for him. Off

51:45

so he was a child. When his

51:47

mother disappeared, he was fourteen. so he

51:49

sees her and this idealized way. He

51:52

sees her only from a vantage point

51:54

Imagine as the last. Moment.

51:56

That you remember of someone that you love

51:58

is at. That age when you're a

52:00

young teenager. And

52:03

insults. Because. He also.

52:05

Was. Determined to find out what

52:07

happened, he was also telling me

52:10

things. That would. Lead.

52:12

To that out. So.

52:14

Through. This process we understood.

52:16

What what we needed to get from

52:18

it. And since then he's been so

52:21

much more open. It's been really remarkable

52:23

to see. I'm. Very excited

52:25

to see where the story goes on! With your

52:27

relationship with Antonio, putting on

52:29

more of the journalists analysis

52:31

hat. Why this

52:33

story? Now Why is this story a story

52:35

that we need to be talking? About And Twenty

52:37

Twenty four. A couple of

52:40

reasons. Number one. One. Of the

52:42

things I found out about the city, Of Detroit. Is.

52:44

That on there are no

52:46

records. There. Are no Police

52:48

records? Don't even know Media records.

52:51

Television Many of these television stations.

52:53

All of them. Really? When are

52:55

there Was Reform Adding in the

52:58

nineties, all of their reporting from

53:00

the eighties and nineties, and really,

53:02

even early two thousand. There's no

53:04

record of them. So it was

53:07

really hard for us to go

53:09

back in time to piece together

53:11

the city through documentation. This Podcast

53:13

is a stake in the ground

53:16

to say those things. Happened back

53:18

then to the city of Detroit, to

53:20

my sister, to the Detroit Police Departments.

53:22

Here's how it was, so that's important

53:24

to have a record and documentation. Also,

53:27

so many people go missing every single

53:29

day. We think that when we see

53:31

missing persons report on the local news

53:33

or in the newspaper that maybe this

53:35

is the only time it happens. But

53:38

every day there are thousands of people

53:40

who disappear and we as journalists make

53:42

a subject of choice on who were

53:44

going to cover and why we cover

53:46

them and why. They are important and

53:49

what I am saying with a

53:51

need a story is that every

53:53

who goes missing is important and

53:55

my sister's life was important and

53:57

heard disappearing not only impacted. The

53:59

immediate. Folks around her, but those who

54:01

were part of distant family and even myself

54:04

in the way that I view myself and

54:06

the inability to have her as a sister

54:08

and grow up with her and know her.

54:10

And that's important to know because they're walking

54:13

wounded around us every single day that we

54:15

have no idea about. You

54:17

know? my sister now has a

54:19

gravestone. With. Her name on it.

54:22

Finally at the cemetery. Where she had been

54:24

married for over thirty years. I'm

54:26

known as unknown Woman Nineteen Eighty

54:28

Seven. And. It was very

54:30

moving to see it. On.

54:33

To be there and have a place to

54:35

be able to of these It. But.

54:37

They are all of these read markers

54:40

up and down that cemetery of people

54:42

that we don't have the names for.

54:45

The other unknown and so I

54:47

also hope through this process were

54:49

able to give voice in some

54:51

way to those people and give

54:53

them agency. Those people his family

54:55

members are out there right now

54:57

wondering what happened to take the

54:59

steps to contest authorities. You know

55:01

every single city. In the United

55:04

States has a cemetery like this

55:06

for unknown people. And.

55:09

On. Detroit. Is the first

55:11

city in the country to do this. Were

55:13

there excavating bodies and matching with Dna and

55:15

I hope to see it in other places

55:17

to offer some sort of closure and healing

55:19

for others as well. I

55:22

think that so moving. My family's from

55:24

Argentina and I'm glad to come to

55:26

the Us during the dirty work and

55:28

as process of matching children who had

55:30

been taken from their families and place

55:33

and military families or finding people who

55:35

had died and concentration camps or across

55:37

the city and identifying them. He was

55:39

so important for that countries healing process.

55:41

Like you said and I think we

55:44

talk about loot. That was a. Huge

55:46

Civil war in a country. we have that

55:49

on a smaller but just as impartial level

55:51

here in our cities. On that and I

55:53

think what you're doing is extremely moving and

55:55

I can we to hear the other episodes

55:57

or twenty mostly think so much for joining

55:59

me. You can find she has a

56:01

name wherever you get your podcasts. Antonia

56:04

Thank you so much for having me

56:06

and this great conversation. Was

56:11

Honey Mosley host and executive producer of

56:13

the podcast. She has a name. From

56:15

A Pm Studios. Are things to

56:18

Tanya A Pm Studios and the entire she

56:20

has a Name. Team. A

56:23

month and yesterday he the host

56:25

of Imperfect Paradise episode was produced.

56:27

By Monica Bushmen Catherine Mail House is

56:29

the producer of the south and seen

56:31

any only crock mall and are Vice

56:33

President of. Mixing

56:35

Buyer engineer He scott Kelly

56:37

since Campbell is our production

56:40

coordinator. Imperfect Third, I

56:42

seem also Foods and Li Guerin, Natalie,

56:44

To.e and and the alabaster. Support for

56:46

this podcast is made possible by Gordon

56:49

and on a Crawford who believe that

56:51

quality journalism makes Los Angeles. A better

56:53

place to live. On

57:21

Julie A Pack in Host Weekend Edition

57:24

join me as I talked with Npr

57:26

Sarah Mccammon about her new book, The

57:28

X Angelicas Loving Living and Leaving the

57:30

White Evangelical Church. She's not alone in

57:32

leaving the church she's found. She's among

57:34

a rising generation fleeing the fold as

57:36

April Twenty Fifth at. Least.