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1:04

Holy smokes, you've got 24 hours to

1:06

make a big decision, 24 hours

1:09

left in a sale we've never had before,

1:11

like 80% off supporting Canada. And what are

1:13

you going to do? What

1:15

decision are you going to make? Are you going to value what

1:17

we do here? I might annoy you.

1:19

Do you want to support somebody who annoys you?

1:21

You might disagree with me, but other

1:23

times maybe you learn something, maybe like another show but not

1:25

this show, maybe like this show but not another show. What

1:27

are you going to do? I don't

1:29

know, it's a tough one. Let me suggest

1:31

to you that it's not that big a decision, that

1:33

the kind of media that you want to support

1:36

is news that you don't always agree with,

1:38

people who don't always tell you things you

1:40

want to hear but do inform you. And

1:43

it's not that big a decision because

1:45

it's two bucks a month, but

1:48

only for the next 23 hours

1:51

and 59 minutes. Put

1:54

on it, support independent news

1:56

in Canada, journalism is fighting

1:58

for its life. This

2:00

is a great offer. Thank you. Hi.

2:59

Karen Puliese here. I'm the editor-in-chief

3:01

of Candleland. I have a

3:03

quick note before we begin to let you know that

3:05

in the second half of the episode, Jesse

3:07

and his co-host Robert Jago

3:10

discuss the boycott, divestment, and

3:12

sanctions movement as it's being

3:14

applied to artists in Canada. This

3:16

conversation becomes rapid, heated, and

3:19

frankly messy. But it's also

3:21

honest, and it models something that we need

3:23

more of. Conversation between

3:26

people who vigorously disagree. So,

3:29

we're playing it for you today with a minimal amount of

3:31

editing. That's all. On

3:34

with the show. Writer,

3:42

researcher, co-host of Pretendian's Robert Jago

3:44

joining me from Vancouver. How are

3:46

you doing? I'm doing good. How

3:49

are you? I'm all

3:51

right. Today on the show,

3:53

Robert, politician, publisher, Pretendian,

3:56

Meet the new owner of the Winnipeg Sun.

4:01

The Road A Jew down the

4:03

Inkwell. The cartoonist who has been

4:05

banned in Vancouver as a threat

4:07

to public safety. Welcome.

4:10

Back to shortcuts where we talk shit

4:12

about the news. Of.

4:16

This episode is brought everybody

4:18

by Aaron: Stew Dolan, Christine,

4:21

Stacey, Rebecca Sing. Mads.

4:23

Three hours. Haven't read Sky Scott

4:26

Armstrong said tale books and Cameron.

4:28

I'm Cameron a traveler and craft

4:30

beer industry where currently living in

4:32

Bird New Brunswick I support Canada.

4:34

Land is truly valid. News sources

4:36

and specifically Canadian ones are getting

4:38

harder and harder to find. Not

4:40

to mention the fact that you

4:42

actually cover stories that happened in

4:44

Atlantic Canada and that's certainly helps

4:46

remind the rest Canada that the

4:48

maritimes are still out here. So

4:51

thank you so much to Jesse

4:53

and. The entire team least

4:55

which. Is.

5:03

Kevin Kline, the former City Councilors, former Winnipeg

5:06

Mayoral candidate and former P C M L

5:08

A is about to become the new owner

5:10

the When A Pig Son. The Post Media

5:12

seen announced today it's selling The Sun to

5:15

the Klein Group led by the former politician.

5:17

It is important that we provide

5:19

the news that's necessary, that we

5:21

played a vital role, that we

5:23

live up to our obligations and

5:25

that we uphold. The principles

5:27

of journalistic integrity. The deal on the table

5:29

would see the playing group acquired a son,

5:31

the graphic leader, importance in the Prairie and

5:34

the can or a minor in news. Ah,

5:38

You don't have been waiting for this to

5:40

happen. you know I was wondering Robert at

5:42

what point do the you know the local

5:45

newspapers that was scooped up into chains like

5:47

Posts Media. At What point? Does

5:50

posts media. Start. Selling

5:52

them back to the communities to like

5:54

smaller local business people. Because.

5:57

You know, the post media has said these papers

5:59

are not sustainable. And. Maybe

6:01

one of the only kind of

6:03

like hopeful paths for local news

6:05

is that. These. Get cheap enough

6:08

that they get sold back to community.

6:10

Is that what's going on here? Like

6:12

who in the year? Two thousand? Twenty.

6:15

Four. Buys. A

6:17

bunch of newspapers. Yeah I was looking

6:19

of a business deal. It looks like

6:22

Post Media is trying out and is

6:24

Sas approach. To. Operating

6:26

news suffer as a service for

6:29

our listeners that such as so

6:31

with this deal. They.

6:33

Operate all of their international news and

6:36

their national news and they become like

6:38

of a new service. My seat into

6:40

the new group who then I guess

6:43

just focuses on local news exclusively. To

6:45

tell me more about that I miss

6:47

this detail. Okay so the detail is

6:50

is that this becomes an independent paper

6:52

but it's still as part of the

6:54

sales packets licenses, news and content from

6:56

post media. Yeah. That that

6:59

makes sense Because I mean essentially what's

7:01

been happening to these local papers is

7:03

that the local news gathering you know,

7:05

capabilities. Even the local news rooms and

7:07

editorial staff has been picked away and

7:09

picked away and picked way to a

7:11

point where these papers have just sort

7:13

of had a local masthead and then

7:15

syndicated content either from the posts media's

7:17

that, the new service itself or for

7:19

many the wire services and they just

7:21

rubbing zombie newspapers. So.

7:24

If you're going to strip away these papers and try

7:26

to make a go of them locally, Then.

7:28

You would want is have the benefit of

7:31

that content from the post media network. That's

7:33

interesting. I miss that detail about like their

7:35

stuff so can be connected to the Borg

7:38

in that way. Okay sign of hope like.

7:41

You know if we take this guy Kevin Kline

7:43

not to be confused with that. Fish.

7:45

Called Wanda actor. Local. Politician

7:47

or from the publisher of the want to

7:49

pick son. If we take him

7:51

at his word, he's trying to do right by

7:53

local news. Do. we

7:55

take him at his word circus or any reason you

7:58

can think of as you're getting to know this guy,

8:00

Robert, to

8:03

doubt his good word

8:06

or his claims. Let's

8:08

come to your attention, Robert. Sure. So

8:11

when he was a minister for

8:13

the progressive conservatives and

8:16

ran an election campaign on not

8:18

recovering the bodies from the landfills.

8:21

Just some context for our listeners here.

8:23

He was running for the conservatives in

8:25

Manitoba who campaigned in

8:27

part on the fact that they did not want

8:29

to search the landfills for

8:31

the remains of four indigenous women

8:34

who were victims of

8:36

a serial killer. He was also at the same time

8:38

claiming to be Métis. And

8:41

claiming to be Métis as a personal private

8:43

matter that he told everybody about. Recently, Manitoba

8:45

Cabinet Minister Kevin Kline became the

8:48

subject of controversy after claims about

8:50

his Métis ancestry came into question.

8:52

Kline has a Métis card from

8:54

a for-profit Ontario company called Painted

8:56

Feather Woodland Métis. And as I said,

8:59

I don't claim to be Métis for politics. I

9:01

did it beforehand. His government biography says

9:03

Kevin Kline is a proud Métis Canadian.

9:05

Well, look, in our party, we don't

9:07

police people's identity. I want to speak

9:10

from a place that no one else in council can

9:12

speak from. My indigenous mother

9:14

was murdered. CBC News could

9:16

not find any evidence of Kline's

9:19

maternal Métis ancestry. Kline

9:21

is now refusing to answer questions about

9:23

his heritage, saying it's a private and

9:25

personal journey. Sure,

9:27

politician Pretendian? There's a lot that's

9:29

wrong with that story. Number

9:32

one, relying on a fake

9:34

Métis nation is pretty bad. And

9:37

number two, that story about his mother doesn't

9:39

seem to check out once people start to look

9:41

into it. So his

9:43

mother was not Métis. And

9:46

that's something that you see with some

9:48

of the worst cases of Pretendians, where

9:50

they establish their bona fides by pulling

9:52

on native trauma and dressing themselves in it

9:55

like a costume. And

9:57

to do that, Well, as a minister, you're

9:59

refusing to answer questions. To actually investigate made

10:01

of Manila and also and and

10:03

I'm sorry but having anybody in

10:05

government say we don't please native

10:08

identity is idiotic. Because.

10:10

In fact, it's just as a matter

10:12

of policy they police made them identity

10:14

quite aggressively. you give me the bed.

10:16

There are federally issued his status cards

10:18

much as federally says says cars but

10:20

policy as well and a different set

10:22

of rights. lake if I Die Without

10:24

Oh well as different laws surrounding it.

10:27

For. Me as sad as any and then there would

10:29

be for you right? And when I don't have their

10:31

policing it but they are determining it's like a that

10:33

that that is the business of government. They.

10:35

Are policing it or are actually under

10:38

police him his posts. They offered different

10:40

interfere levels of service because you're an

10:42

Indian. Physical reason as things like Jordan's

10:44

Principal yeah. Painted. Feather Woodlands

10:46

may t cells have a cigarette that

10:49

all of it as as it's got

10:51

all it's got all the things. If

10:53

there was an automatic Pf for the

10:55

sound that at a flute makes has

10:57

has been mystically over the woods it

10:59

would be included in that named. Kevin.

11:02

Kline is that is a Jewish names and

11:04

an hour is a Jewish guy pretending to

11:06

the May T on his Manitoba as and

11:09

is plenty of Jewish people Manitoba I don't

11:11

think Kevin Kline is one of them or

11:13

or less I don't believe so because Klein

11:15

is not his birth name is this is

11:17

proof Name was heralded Kevin A Route Jr

11:20

and some time before his second marriage and

11:22

mentioned before he changed it. To

11:24

Kevin Elvis Klein. Interesting.

11:27

Guy I don't know what the impetus

11:29

was for renaming himself Kevin Elvis Klein.

11:32

Against Ralph Klein was a popular politician.

11:34

I was. Ah yeah, and

11:37

it's Raider that san his ten

11:39

have a really big influential. Down.

11:41

To Earth Guy. So. And he

11:43

use that spelling. Know Kevin

11:45

Kline spell the our I Any

11:48

real Kevin Kline. We. Should add

11:50

to this in fairness that to some

11:52

extent Key I took responsibility for this.

11:54

He published and post was website in

11:56

which he called us an error in

11:58

judge It is my own and I

12:01

acknowledge it. I guess Robert he did

12:03

what you would hope somebody would do

12:05

when they have made false or for

12:07

are flawed indigenous ancestry claims he removed

12:09

from his public profiles. So. That's

12:11

part of the story as well. If he were

12:13

a pretend in academia or are almost a

12:15

or else he were like a pretending actor

12:18

and said i'm sorry I'm as a d

12:20

than a more i think it's it's probably

12:22

good place to let it let. Like.

12:24

It's it's finest on. Your even

12:26

without a big party at it if it's

12:28

his promises setting and I think that's the

12:30

most he could ask for. However, if he's

12:32

going to make it his data to influence

12:35

people and if he said that while in

12:37

government in an election campaign as pretty anti

12:39

native I think it it is different. And

12:42

without the apology it it doesn't really ring

12:44

true. and it it just sets off a

12:46

lot of warning bells that this is a

12:48

person who any to watch for. To.

12:51

Be there in this very native place

12:53

and to be so disconnected from native

12:55

culture that you can even think that

12:58

those flimsy claims if you're made up

13:00

tribe. Are a real think

13:02

it says that You know this is

13:04

a person who probably isn't capable of

13:07

popular reporting on on Indian country. Which.

13:09

Is a shame because when a pic of the capital of

13:12

it. I'm intrigued in people who

13:14

want to buy newspapers like at any time.

13:16

It's interesting because it's always like is that

13:18

a business decision or is that I want

13:21

to mold the way people think decision. Vietnam

13:23

as a business is one step up from

13:25

politics. His party's percent if

13:27

they the amount of money involved as

13:30

is paltry compared to like a corner

13:32

store or a supermarket and and Monique

13:34

see the newspapers are are barely step

13:36

up from that. I'm very curious

13:39

as well about the economics of this

13:41

for a couple of reasons. Mean one

13:43

thing is that like is he actually

13:45

the new owner of these newspapers? According

13:47

to a filing with Manitoba as companies

13:49

office, he is not listed as owning

13:51

ten percent of the shares of the

13:53

company that bought the when it picks

13:56

and is to other newspapers like he

13:58

has a minority shareholder in the Klein

14:00

Group. So who his backing this and

14:02

why. And the Globe and

14:04

Mill goes ahead and reports that he

14:06

is not ruling out running against Wad

14:08

Canoe to be the next premier conservative

14:11

premier of Manitoba was just an old

14:13

fashioned acquisition of newspapers to buy public

14:15

influence to fuel his his political ambitions.

14:17

but mean that such as possessing they're

14:19

like it is a very cheap way

14:21

to get outsized influence. I imagine. My

14:24

class of people Yeah, yeah, I meant

14:26

that old. a class of people that

14:28

are less privileged to read newspapers. So.

14:31

I think that what we might

14:33

have here is like an old

14:35

fashioned reason for a business person.

14:38

To. Buy a bunch of newspapers, Judge says the

14:40

first, forty five And as a Citizen Kane. Yeah.

14:43

It's it's it's the micro Two thousand

14:45

and twenty four her version of citizens

14:47

to same where are not like a

14:49

super wealthy Cyan. I make no

14:52

comments or endorsement of his like actual

14:54

agenda on or know before I put

14:56

myself in the ridiculous and tortured position

14:58

of defending these newspapers under Kevin Kline

15:00

before we know what he's going to

15:03

do with them out or. I'll.

15:05

Bring an end to the segment by saying. I.

15:08

Guess we'll wait and see. Well always

15:10

seemed so they disclose actually unset. That.

15:13

I'll tell you everything. Although I did,

15:15

it may be like a personal private matter. Like.

15:18

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this offer. Robert,

18:05

we're going to dually note some things that people should know more

18:07

about, and I am going

18:09

to dually note your

18:12

podcast, Pretendians, the show that you

18:14

are hosting with Angel. This

18:17

is shameless, but it's so good, Robert. The

18:19

process of making the show with you was,

18:22

for me, the dynamics are all there,

18:24

where as publisher I'm like, I want

18:26

this to be entertaining to everybody.

18:29

And then you and Angel are saying, well, we don't want this

18:31

to be like people gawking at

18:33

us, and we don't want to

18:35

be sensationalizing something that matters. And

18:38

I'm like, I'm okay with that, but it's got to

18:40

be entertaining. And then you're saying, well, we're okay with

18:42

it being entertaining because we want people to listen to

18:44

it. And then our editor-in-chief, Karen, is

18:46

saying, okay, but it's got to be super accurate because

18:48

we're talking about like real people in their lives here.

18:51

And through those dynamics, it just

18:54

sort of became something so wonderful. Episode

18:56

by episode, it's just going into such

18:59

interesting and nuanced territory. The most recent

19:01

episode is Angel looking at the governor

19:03

of Oklahoma.

19:06

Robert, you remember, like the fear at the

19:08

beginning was, is every episode going to be the same? Like

19:11

just another story of a faker. And it

19:13

just has like not been an issue. Like

19:15

this episode is so different than the last

19:18

one, and the connection with Pretendianism is very

19:20

surprising with this guy. And then the next

19:22

episode about Pretendian hunters, I just think that

19:24

you're doing like a tremendous job. It's so

19:26

interesting. And you and Angel are

19:29

funny as hell. Anyhow,

19:31

I am duly noting it because the

19:33

show is in that place where our

19:35

audience is turning on to it and

19:37

people who pay attention to indigenous issues

19:39

are turning on to it. And like people

19:41

we respect and podcasting, it's doing well. And

19:44

it's just sort of like on the cusp of like breaking

19:46

out and becoming some bigger thing.

19:49

And I want people to be talking about this stuff. That

19:51

was the goal from the start. So I'm

19:54

not going to stop plugging it. It's such good

19:56

work. I Want to congratulate you on it. It's

19:59

awesome. Thank you. I. I'm really

20:01

excited for it was really set of the

20:03

second episode the Prison one I'm obsessed with

20:05

out when reading an article for that can

20:08

commit since. And I really excited

20:10

for the next episode. I like the

20:12

Governor opposite. I want to see

20:14

that get more attention. This isn't The problem

20:16

is is that a million tornadoes this hit

20:18

Oklahoma at the same time the episode came

20:20

out. so it's not really. it's kind of

20:23

buried below that in the in the local

20:25

news cycle but I really kind of the

20:27

next one. that's where we look at the

20:29

pretending hunters. I love that episode so much.

20:31

Listen I think it's it can be fun

20:34

for people who contribute to Canada and her

20:36

listen to can lead to see our stuff

20:38

you know could break out and like actually

20:40

hold space next to like smoky crappy true

20:42

crime stuff. And and be like a break up podcast

20:44

in the States. If you want to see that happen, help

20:47

us make that happen, subscribe to the show and go and

20:49

tell a friend about it. Duly noted. Robert.

20:52

What do you have to do? We

20:54

know today John Iversen article as know

20:56

John ever since. Great fan of In

20:58

in Country and he had an article

21:00

in the post titled Eco Activists Liberal

21:02

Ministers could ruin a three hundred million

21:05

dollar lifeline for a struggling Pc First

21:07

Nation. It the First Nation was investing

21:09

in a fish farm which we all

21:11

hate and he said that them Pc

21:13

ministers are going to kill. It's what

21:15

I took issue. There was the word

21:17

struggling. And assuming that you

21:20

often see an immediate and. Very

21:22

often and report of a native Things

21:24

that that the media reports that relies

21:26

on a lot of really tired old

21:28

tropes and one of them is that

21:30

every first nation is struggling Energy I've

21:32

heard them on here to i'm a

21:34

member on Seminal and once I heard.

21:37

Vibe to new referred to as like

21:39

you know, the struggling street test that

21:41

became. Famous. As doesn't that

21:43

he's like a rich boy. He's like of a

21:45

rich private school kids. Who. Said that

21:47

that? I say that you said that

21:49

and he's like is a rich private

21:51

school kids whose parents were like professors

21:53

I don't know we're talking about. I

21:55

heard his hip hop work and I

21:57

it with sigh. Hell authentic. Ah yeah.

22:00

All right. Yeah. But anyway, the point

22:02

I'm getting at here is with Iveson,

22:04

he calls this nation struggling. And whenever

22:07

I see something like that, I just take a look

22:10

at their books just out of curiosity. And

22:12

this is the First Nation whose accumulated

22:15

budget surplus is $100,000 for every single

22:18

person in the reserve. If

22:20

Canada had that level of budget surplus,

22:23

it would have a sovereign wealth fund

22:25

three times larger than the largest

22:27

other sovereign wealth fund in the world. Yeah. It

22:29

would be literally the richest country

22:31

on earth. No, I hear what you're saying. He's

22:33

using them as a prop. He's really defending this

22:36

like fish farm, but the

22:38

argument is like, you're hurting the

22:40

struggling native population. Yeah. So

22:42

basically what I want to duly note is

22:44

stop doing that. And the way to stop

22:46

doing that is to go into Google, search

22:49

this term First Nations Profiles.

22:51

And that will take you to a

22:54

federal government website that's updated every month

22:56

that gives you every single demographic and

22:58

economic fact about a First Nation. And

23:00

that exists for native people, including budget

23:02

numbers and finance numbers and chief salaries

23:04

and population statistics and everything. And

23:07

I see so much bad reporting that

23:09

can be corrected by simply Googling First

23:11

Nations Profiles. Is there a

23:14

similar public facing document I could have referred

23:16

to to fact check whether or not Wabkanu

23:18

had a hard knock life or not? He

23:21

could have read his book. God, no. Duly

23:23

noted. Robert, I got one last thing here. I

23:26

usually say I'd like to duly note. I would

23:28

not like to duly note this. I don't want

23:30

to. You can't make me. All

23:34

right, fine. Listen, I don't have

23:37

grudges. We don't keep blacklists

23:39

here in Canada land, but I'd be lying to

23:41

you if I were to

23:43

tell you that there weren't reporters whose

23:45

work we tend to like more and

23:47

others that were a little bit skeptical

23:49

or irole about. And there's no secret

23:51

here. Joe Warmington of The Toronto Sun

23:54

has definitely been a reporter that we

23:56

have been skeptical of, like very slanted

23:58

and sometimes sensationalistic coverage. So

24:01

yeah, I don't think you've ever heard of Joe Warmington

24:03

duly noted that hasn't been somehow dunking on Joe Warmington,

24:05

but the guy also is like kind of like an

24:07

old school courtroom reporter and crime reporter and like when

24:10

you got a story you got a story. I mean,

24:12

maybe he's not the only one who had this story,

24:14

but he's the one who I heard it from. So

24:17

I'm going to duly note this story, Robert. Warmington

24:20

reports in the Toronto Sun that

24:22

he's at the murder trial of

24:24

these three guys who are allegedly

24:26

responsible for the 2021 chicken

24:29

land killing, which sounds like

24:31

a James Elroy novel that should have existed.

24:33

The 2002 – I don't mean to

24:35

make light of this. Like a family was shot

24:38

at, a guy was killed, and we're

24:40

finding out in court what the alleged motive was. And

24:43

that's where this wild

24:47

detail comes out. I'll

24:49

read here from the Warmington piece. The

25:15

alleged motive here is that these

25:17

three guys opened fire

25:19

at a Mississauga chicken land in

25:21

order to stop somebody from telling

25:24

the cops that they were working

25:26

for ISIS. That is

25:28

wild. I mean, the

25:30

allegation here goes beyond just like

25:32

that they self-radicalize. There

25:35

is that in there that they took an allegiance

25:37

to ISIS and that they had ISIS propaganda on

25:39

their phones. Like, okay, we've heard about that in

25:41

Canada. It goes beyond that. The

25:44

Crown Attorney is saying that these guys were involved

25:46

in like a money funneling operation to ISIS, like

25:48

a direct ISIS cell. I have no idea if

25:50

that's true. This is an allegation coming out in

25:53

a murder charge. There's

25:55

no other information

25:58

out there of an RCMP investigation. into

26:00

an Isis cell. It's also something that

26:02

I think deserves some attention if they

26:04

feel like they have enough evidence to

26:06

put forth this defense. So

26:08

I am duly noting it.

26:11

Duly noted. Alright,

26:42

so what we just heard there was

26:44

the dress rehearsal at Eurovision. You know,

26:46

it was a few weeks back, people

26:48

remember. The Israeli singer was booed and,

26:50

you know, like it's an ugly thing

26:53

to see somebody who's there as an

26:55

artist meeting that kind

26:57

of response. I

26:59

guess this is an extension of the

27:01

BDS movement, the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions movement.

27:04

I try to keep an open mind about

27:06

things and my thoughts

27:08

on this boycott

27:10

campaign were shaped a

27:13

little bit by an argument that Ezra

27:15

Klein put forward on his podcast. I've

27:18

tried to document antisemitism as it's

27:21

shown itself at some of these protests. I've

27:23

been really critical of

27:25

what I know to

27:27

be antisemitism at these protests,

27:29

right? And there's

27:32

a response to that when you're

27:34

criticizing chants that are genocidal against

27:36

Jews, go back to Europe or

27:38

from water to water, Palestine is

27:40

Arab, calls for an ethno-state, or

27:42

open support for Hamas violence. People

27:45

will say, well, what then is legitimate

27:47

protest? Because unless you

27:49

think that all criticism of Israel is

27:52

anti-Jewish, then there needs to be

27:54

a way to criticize this government. And I think that there

27:56

does need to be a way to criticize this government and

27:59

what it's doing. So people

28:01

ask, I think, the legitimate question of, like,

28:03

well, what's the non-racist way to do this?

28:05

And Ezra Klein made the point that whatever

28:07

you think of boycotting, it

28:10

is nonviolent. It's

28:13

a nonviolent way to isolate

28:17

and sort of try to create, like, the sense of a

28:19

prior state. And my

28:22

understanding of it is, like, you know

28:25

what? People can boycott whatever product they

28:27

want. You know, if you want to

28:29

boycott a thing, a product, a company, then

28:31

that seems to be within your rights to

28:34

do it. You know, getting to some nuances

28:36

when people actually show up and

28:39

there is, like, a menacing

28:42

to the people who frequent a

28:44

Jewish business, and it becomes kind

28:46

of like a community safety thing. But

28:48

the actual act of boycotting things and products

28:50

and companies, it really doesn't disturb me that

28:52

much. But then

28:55

we get into boycotting people. And

28:59

the reason why I'm talking about this to

29:01

you now, Robert, is there are a couple

29:03

of incidents in Canada where people were

29:07

the targets of boycotts. The

29:09

first one I'm going to mention

29:12

is this letter that went

29:14

out from Canada Dancers for Palestine.

29:17

They put out a statement against

29:19

a choreographer named Ohad

29:21

Nahareen. Ohad

29:24

Nahareen, here he is quoted

29:26

in Ha'arz recently. People

29:29

call me a maligner of Israel, but

29:31

it's our government that maligns Israel, the

29:33

settler messianic right wing. They

29:36

are the people who think that the Israeli

29:39

Defense Forces campaign should continue and

29:41

that dead soldiers and dead hostages

29:43

are an understandable price. So

29:46

I don't think it's his politics. He

29:48

is not a supporter of the Israeli military.

29:50

He is a pretty harsh

29:52

critic. It's not his politics

29:54

that have gotten him to be the

29:57

target of this boycott. I'll read directly from...

30:00

the candidate dancers for Palestine, their

30:03

statement. We find it deeply troubling

30:05

that major Canadian dance presenters intend

30:07

to present Minus 16, a work

30:09

choreographed by Ohad Nahreen, an

30:12

Israeli state-funded choreographer. So

30:15

this is how they're building the case against him,

30:17

is that he's funded by the Israeli state. That's

30:19

what they're saying and that's why we should boycott

30:21

this choreographer, who is himself

30:23

a critic of the Israeli military. And

30:27

then there was this statement

30:29

that came out from the Vancouver Comic

30:32

Arts Festival. It

30:34

was a strange one because they don't name

30:36

the person and they don't name

30:38

themselves. It's not signed. They

30:41

put out a statement saying, at this

30:43

year's 2024 Vancouver Comic Arts Festival,

30:46

community members approached us to

30:48

share important public safety concerns

30:52

involving one of the exhibitors we

30:54

allowed to participate in the festival.

30:56

The concerns regarded the exhibitors'

30:59

prior role in the Israeli

31:01

military and their

31:03

subsequent collection of works which recount

31:05

their personal position in said military

31:08

and the illegal occupation of Palestine.

31:10

Upon examining these concerns and conduct, this

31:13

exhibitor will not be permitted to return

31:15

to the festival. So

31:17

they don't name her, but there's

31:19

only one person who that describes

31:21

and that is the cartoonist Miriam

31:23

Labicki. Robert, what

31:25

do you think of these

31:29

campaigns to boycott individual

31:31

artists in Canada? Is

31:34

that a legitimate form of protest? What do you think? Well,

31:36

I mean, first off, I mean,

31:38

nobody likes indiscriminate attacks on people

31:41

and it's

31:43

terrible when a precision-guided attack hits

31:45

the wrong person. I guess

31:47

you're making like an analogy to

31:49

like if Palestinians

31:52

suffer that from the Israeli military, this

31:54

seems like a small thing for an

31:56

artist to endure here in Canada, is

31:58

I guess the the parallel. you're drawing? What

32:01

parallel? No, here's the parallel I'm

32:03

drawing. This stuff you're quoting

32:05

there about like we should boycott

32:08

these people because they're funded by the

32:10

Israeli state. You're talking

32:12

like that's novel, like

32:15

that's coming out of some particular

32:18

organization, but that's Canadian government

32:20

policy when it comes to Russians. It's

32:24

Canadian government policy that we're boycotting officially

32:26

people because they're coming from a pariah

32:28

state and they're funded by a pariah

32:30

state. You know we're talking

32:32

about individuals being affected. There's individuals being affected

32:35

down the street from you at your local

32:37

cinema, you know, where they pulled to Russian

32:39

films at the start of this year without any comment.

32:42

We have cases all over country where like

32:45

different pianists or ballet performers, whomever,

32:47

are being pulled out because

32:49

the Russians and why are they being pulled out

32:52

because the Russians? Because Russia currently is engaged in

32:55

a war of aggression

32:58

against a neighbor and they're committing a ton

33:01

of war crimes. I mean

33:03

according to Ukraine's General Prosecutor's Office in

33:06

two years of war they've killed nearly

33:08

600 children and then we looked at

33:10

Israel. I would have to think that

33:12

even before October 7th that

33:15

what Israel did is

33:17

worse than what Russia has

33:19

done so far and so there's certainly

33:21

justification for a cultural

33:23

boycott and every other kind of boycott. I

33:26

gotta stop you though because I think what

33:28

you just said was that these people are

33:30

funded by Israel and that may be true

33:32

of this choreographer but Miriam Labicki is a

33:35

Canadian resident and she's a cartoonist. I'm

33:38

not aware of any Israeli government

33:40

funding of Miriam Labicki. Well I'm sure they paid

33:42

her when she was in the IDF. Right.

33:45

Well hold on. No, no, no. Let me talk

33:47

about her and the issue with her. Okay. The

33:49

issue with her, first off,

33:51

like you phrased it as she's being banned because

33:53

she's Jewish and then I look at the schedule

33:56

and like there's a whole

33:58

panel with like basically I think I'll Jewish people

34:00

on it. The one person

34:02

featured their Diana Schutz. If I look

34:04

at her background, I think

34:06

her most famous publication is Faking the Jew. See,

34:09

I didn't say that they banned her. I

34:11

said that they banned a Jew. I didn't say

34:13

they're banning all Jews. They're only banning a Jew.

34:15

Yeah, but they're not banned. They don't have a

34:17

Jew ban. So they have an Israeli

34:19

ban. Do they? Well,

34:23

they've banned Israel. What is the criteria?

34:25

This is my problem with what they're

34:27

doing. Tell me. It's not

34:29

that it's a cultural boycott. It's a

34:31

disorganized cultural boycott. If

34:33

they support BDS, as they do

34:35

now, say I support BDS

34:38

and say we are participating in this cultural

34:40

boycott, don't even apply if

34:42

you're funded by Israel because we're not going to

34:45

consider you. She's not funded by Israel. Or

34:47

if you are supporting the Israeli war machine, or

34:49

if you're part of it, or if you're an

34:51

Israeli citizen. Or if you're, hold on a second,

34:53

or if you're an Israeli citizen. Does that include

34:56

Arab Israelis? Yes, because

34:58

it's against Israel. So

35:01

when there was the boycott of South Africa,

35:03

they boycotted black South Africans too, and they

35:05

boycotted colored South Africans. It wasn't just white

35:07

South Africans. Oh wait, hold on a second.

35:09

Let's talk about that. Because that's

35:11

the parallel that I hear. I want

35:14

to listen open-mindedly because it sounds like

35:16

you are saying that a BDS campaign

35:18

that extends to individuals, like artists and

35:21

writers and dancers being boycotted. As long

35:23

as athletes, and yeah. Yeah, as long

35:25

as it's consistent, that's okay. As long

35:27

as it's consistent and publicly stated, as

35:29

we do with Russia. So let's figure

35:32

it out, because what is the consistency?

35:34

Because my understanding of the, I

35:36

hear the parallel a lot to the, I won't play

35:38

Sun City, right? So. And where was Sun City by

35:40

the way? It was in Baput, that's when it was

35:43

a black homeland. I mean, the most, 90% of the people

35:46

affected were black. Well, no, Sun City

35:48

was a luxury casino resort. And

35:50

Baput, that's one. It wasn't in

35:52

South Africa proper. Right. So. It

35:54

was in a homeland. So my

35:56

understanding of the way that that

35:58

worked was that. a lot of musicians

36:00

got together and said we're not going to play there

36:03

and we're not going to play in

36:05

an apartheid state. But I but

36:07

my understanding is that when like the

36:09

exiled trumpeter Hugh Maskella from South Africa

36:12

nobody was banning him from playing who

36:14

was a staunch opponent to the apartheid

36:16

regime. No one was saying that bands

36:18

from South Africa that had black and

36:21

white members were boycotted from performing. In

36:23

fact art was a very powerful tool

36:25

against apartheid, right? That's how

36:28

the boycott worked there. What I

36:30

saw there, there are quite a lot of complaints about, you

36:33

know, for example I think that Paul Simon

36:35

album Graceland where there were

36:37

black people from South Africa performing.

36:40

Yes. Was pretty

36:42

aggressively criticized for breaking the boycott. Because he

36:44

came to South Africa and broke the boycott.

36:46

So there were certain artists like Elton John

36:48

who were singled out because they

36:50

broke the boycott and then they and then they

36:52

faced because they took a position. So what the

36:54

distinction here that's really important is are

36:57

we canceling people and boycotting them because

37:00

of what politics they take and I think

37:02

that that can be appropriate because of positions

37:04

they've taken or are we

37:06

boycotting them and banning them because

37:09

of who they are. Despite

37:11

the fact that this choreographer is a critic

37:13

of Israel, despite the fact that Miriam Labicki

37:16

has been critical of Israel, neither of

37:18

them have taken pro-Israel's positions. So I'm

37:20

trying to figure out what is the

37:22

basis like is the basis

37:24

like Labicki lives in

37:26

Canada. So is it what they say

37:28

in their art? Are we banning people because of

37:31

what they did or because of who they are?

37:33

No, no, a boycott isn't about the content. It's

37:35

about where it's from. So

37:38

with the Russian boycotts, we're not looking

37:40

into the politics of every person who's

37:42

being boycotted. I mean some places maybe

37:44

I've seen a symphony here or there

37:46

that'll say, you know, if they've come

37:49

out and said something against Putin very

37:51

aggressively then of course. But

37:53

I mean can Israelis actually speak

37:55

out that aggressively against especially

37:57

if they're not Jewish? Can they actually speak

38:00

out? out that aggressively against Israel? No. We've

38:03

seen people with very mild criticism face

38:05

jail. It's not a free country apparently.

38:07

So we can't have

38:10

that be the criteria. I think that some of

38:12

the the best and most

38:14

harsh criticism and detailed and substantive criticism that

38:16

I've read of Israel is from Israelis who

38:18

know what they're talking about. And then you

38:21

see some of that criticism come from Israeli

38:23

Arabs and then their students rise up and

38:25

try and kill them. So

38:27

you're okay with with a consistent cultural

38:29

band that would cover Israeli Arab, no

38:31

Israeli Arab who wants to come to

38:33

Canada and do a protest concert against

38:35

the war in Gaza. They should be

38:37

banned. Yeah. All

38:40

of Israelis. Uh-huh. How

38:43

are you gonna do this this fine vetting of

38:46

which is really, I mean it's a very

38:49

diverse community of the Israeli Arab community, some

38:51

of whom are the most staunch Zionists out

38:54

there. And then the most aggressive

38:56

supporters for Israel and Palestine. Okay. I did find

38:58

out a little bit about what happened at the

39:00

Vancouver Comic Arts Festival. So I'll share that so

39:02

people can make up their own minds about what

39:04

kind of art they want to ban. Miriam

39:07

Labicki is a cartoonist and a

39:09

memoirist and a writer and she's

39:12

been exhibiting at this comic festival in

39:15

Vancouver. And in the year, I think in

39:17

the year 2000, she

39:21

did a year with the IDF. The

39:23

book she wrote about it, Jobnik. Jobnik

39:26

means like a clerical job. So

39:28

she was a secretary in the

39:30

IDF and she wrote

39:32

a memoir about her coming of age.

39:35

And then she wrote another book that

39:37

had to do with Jewish stuff and that

39:39

there is imagery of IDF soldiers

39:42

on the covers of these books. Nothing in

39:45

these books. Like there's some criticism of the

39:47

Israeli state. There's a lot of analysis. I've

39:49

read the books and there's

39:51

analysis of problems that

39:53

she has with the occupation. She joined

39:56

the IDF by the way when there was still a

39:58

peace process that was happening towards a two-state solution. Revolution.

40:01

So, she wrote a book about it, about

40:03

being 18 years old. It's like almost out

40:05

of print now, and after October 7th, she

40:09

was asked to not

40:11

bring those books. They

40:13

would give her a table if she agreed to

40:16

not bring those books. And

40:18

regardless of the content of the books, that

40:20

there's no endorsement. There's really a critique of

40:22

the culture, the military culture in Jobnik. But

40:25

regardless, she said, you know what? I don't

40:27

want to trigger anybody. I don't want to

40:29

do any harm here. And that's not the

40:31

book that I'm promoting. The book that she

40:33

was promoting was about child survivors of the

40:35

Holocaust. So she

40:38

appeared as an exhibitor at the

40:41

Vancouver Comic Arts Festival, this

40:43

Canadian resident and artist selling

40:46

a book about Holocaust survivors. And

40:50

after the festival, they

40:54

came out with this statement accusing

40:56

her of endangering public safety. If

41:00

you read the statement, it suggests that she

41:02

had materials there. That's

41:04

not true. There were no materials there.

41:07

They talked about materials about

41:09

her experience in the Israeli military. She

41:11

had no such materials there. So the

41:14

issue was not that she was bringing materials

41:16

that could harm somebody. The issue

41:18

was, I suppose, that she had

41:20

created these materials to begin with, or perhaps

41:22

that she had done this thing. And

41:25

by the way, it's compulsory if you are Israeli. It's

41:28

not compulsory for her. It was not

41:30

compulsory in her case. That's true. It is compulsory

41:32

if you were born in Israel. So she was

41:35

not born in Israel. So what's unclear, backing

41:37

up a little bit. So

41:39

while the statement suggests it's because she had

41:41

materials there, that doesn't

41:43

seem to be true. It's either because of

41:45

what she had written, the fact that she

41:47

had written about this to begin with, or

41:50

perhaps it was because she had served in

41:52

the IDF at all. And that's not what

41:54

they say. So

41:57

the criteria in the case

41:59

of Miriam. to Bicky is like amorphous

42:02

and it's an unsigned document, right? So

42:04

the two guys who throw

42:06

this thing, Jared Evan Sampson, who ran

42:08

this last Vancouver Comic Arts Festival event

42:10

and then I think he stepped down

42:12

before this controversy broke out and

42:15

then Robin McConnell, they don't sign

42:17

the document and you won't find

42:19

their names on their Twitter accounts or on the

42:21

Vancouver Comic Arts Festival's website. But

42:24

Miriam LaBicky is easily identifiable by what they wrote

42:26

about her and what they wrote about her is

42:28

not accurate. She did not have these allegedly harmful

42:30

materials at the event. So

42:33

in the case of this one cartoonist

42:35

who is no longer welcome at this thing,

42:39

the criteria is unclear. In

42:41

the case of the

42:44

choreographer, the criteria is

42:46

unclear. Supporting their

42:48

cause does not make

42:50

a difference. It might be

42:52

because he served in the IDF

42:55

as all Israeli citizens have to. It

42:58

might be that he's an Israeli resident.

43:00

Miriam LaBicky is not an Israeli

43:02

resident. She's a neighbor of ours. She's a neighbor

43:04

of yours, Robert, in Vancouver. So

43:06

in those two cases, there's no consistency. But

43:09

now we're at a place where we're

43:11

not talking about cancelling anything but like books,

43:15

people, art, discussion

43:18

and I do have a problem with that.

43:20

Well, I think you're making a really compelling case for

43:23

people to come out with clear and

43:25

consistent BDS policies, which

43:28

I think that the comics group has

43:30

signed on to one of them. But

43:33

this is what happens if you have

43:36

some post-factor reasoning that you post

43:38

to justify a ban and

43:40

if it's done in a disorganized manner. If

43:44

you want to participate in a cultural boycott,

43:46

you need to do it openly. You

43:48

need to follow a very clear criteria which is set

43:50

by the BDS people and

43:53

you need to stick to it.

43:56

And if you don't, then you can get picked apart like this.

43:59

I also think that That's why we're

44:01

not talking about Russians where this

44:03

is happening because the policies are

44:05

very clear. I would oppose it

44:08

in exactly the same way were

44:10

it to happen to Russians. Well, you haven't though.

44:12

I mean, it's been happening for two years. I'm

44:14

not aware. Well, tell me about the cases where

44:16

like a Russian artist has been kicked off of...

44:20

If that news story exists, like it

44:22

certainly did escape my attention, but if

44:24

you're trying to find out about consistency here, I

44:27

oppose that whoever, like I

44:30

think we need more talk. We need to hear

44:32

Palestinians. We need more Palestinian art. We

44:34

need Palestinian voices. Russian

44:36

artists and writers are not

44:39

responsible for the actions of Vladimir Putin.

44:42

Art is what helps us actually sort

44:44

through these egregious actions of state actors,

44:46

right? This is from the CBC

44:48

March 8th, 2022, Montreal

44:50

Symphony Orchestra cancels

44:52

Russian pianist performances. Alexander Melofiev,

44:55

20, was to perform Prokofiev

44:58

concert in three concerts this week.

45:00

Alexander Melofiev has been set to perform for the

45:02

first time in Montreal under the direction of celebrated

45:04

American Dr. Michael Tilson Thomas on March 9th, 10th

45:06

and 13th. Melofiev's withdrawal from

45:09

the concert series follows pressure from the Ukrainian

45:11

community in the wake of the Russian invasion

45:13

of Ukraine. Some OSM musicians

45:15

also said they would refuse to play if

45:17

Melofiev did. You'll find no

45:19

double standard here that's egregious and

45:22

I think it's disgusting. I

45:24

think that when you're talking about what

45:26

should happen if we're going to have a

45:29

consistent and ethical approach to this, should

45:31

also be mindful of the fact that

45:33

a literal lynch mob

45:37

just broke out on the

45:39

streets of Athens trying to find

45:41

Israeli citizens who were

45:43

supposedly in a hotel. This

45:46

happened in Dajestan months earlier as well

45:48

where people heard that there were Israeli

45:50

people and

45:52

were trying to ransack and

45:55

discover them so that they could

45:57

do violence to them. Well, I mean that escalated pretty quickly.

46:00

We were talking about culture and other slench bombs. No,

46:03

no, no, no, Robert. We're talking about people.

46:06

We're talking about blaming people for what governments

46:08

do. No, we're talking about the culture of

46:10

boycott. I mean, if we're talking about

46:12

people for governments, then we could talk about the

46:14

several policies that have been shot in the states

46:17

for just, you know, wearing a shirt or being on a

46:19

boycott. The people that have been mowed down on the street

46:22

by cars. All the people that have been

46:24

beaten by cops. Do you think that I don't think we

46:26

should talk about? Like, who's saying that we shouldn't talk about

46:28

that? Well, you're not talking about it. If

46:30

you're not talking about it, then it seems like we shouldn't talk about it. When

46:33

have I ever talked about any news stories

46:35

like that out of America? You just talked

46:37

about something out of Greece. What I'm

46:39

saying is that when you extend

46:41

the scope of what is fair

46:44

game from a government

46:46

to individual people because they happen

46:48

to come from that country, people

46:51

are going to get killed. It

46:54

just rings a little bit more honest if you

46:57

had said it any time in the last two

46:59

years when it has been happening to anybody else

47:02

who was Russian. Well, I

47:04

am not aware of – I mean, I can

47:06

tell you, like, my walk home used

47:09

to take me past a shop called Russian World, where I

47:11

used to stop in and buy pierogies, until

47:13

shortly after the war when someone smashed their windows, and

47:15

that was a nice Mexican restaurant. I

47:18

mean, what is the point that you're making that, like, if

47:21

the accusation is, I don't care about what

47:23

happens to Russians – I

47:25

can tell you in good faith that I do – if

47:27

your criticism is that I could have done a better

47:29

job of covering that, fair enough, man. No, my

47:32

criticism is that your criticism is partisan.

47:34

It's not principle. Is the partisan that

47:36

I'm like a human being who happens

47:38

to be a member of a minority

47:40

that is under daily attack? Like, I'm

47:42

a partisan – what is the

47:44

partisan? Exactly correct, yes.

47:46

Is there a difference between being a partisan for, like,

47:48

the group that you were born into versus being –

47:51

does that make you a partisan for a foreign state?

47:54

No, but you've taken on that

47:56

position, that role. I mean, this

47:58

is a foreign – I have? I

48:00

think what are you talking everybody? What

48:02

are you talking about world can see?

48:05

Excuse me a second Robert. Yeah

48:07

is being anti Zionist Does

48:10

that mean that you're anti-Semitic to be

48:12

anti Zionist doesn't mean you're anti-Semitic? If

48:16

you're anti Zionist are you anti-Semitic it depends

48:18

on kind of anti what you mean by

48:20

Zionist if you are anti Zionist

48:22

Does that de facto always make you anti-Semitic?

48:25

I don't think so only because certain

48:28

people identify use the terms lioness in

48:30

a different way Then and

48:32

other people okay, they use Zionist to mean

48:34

like foodist. Can you answer that like just

48:37

directly? Do you think that every anti Zionist

48:39

hates Jews? No Okay,

48:41

neither do I? But by the

48:44

same token does that mean what does it mean if

48:46

you are pro Jewish if you're a pro some

48:48

might? Does that mean that you're pro is

48:50

real? No,

48:52

no Thank

48:54

you Thank you

48:56

very much, but we're talking about Israelis who've

48:59

been banned from things We're talking

49:01

about Israelis in hotels in Greece and it no

49:03

no no a second ago You were saying that

49:05

it was clear to everybody that I am a

49:07

partisan Yes, you're partisan on this issue and a

49:09

partisan has a political a partisan you cannot be

49:11

a partisan for your own race a Partisan

49:14

is a political term that you've taken

49:16

a position a political position Defending

49:19

my own desire not to be murdered is

49:21

not a partisan position. Thank you very much

49:24

When you're your own racist Caucasian Jews

49:27

are not racialized Jews are not an ethnic group.

49:29

Are they I don't know the Nazis

49:31

thought so Yeah, but I'm told repeatedly that there are

49:33

black Jews and I've seen Chinese

49:35

Jews You know, I

49:38

mean that's absolutely true Yeah

49:41

So what are you saying? So what

49:43

I'm saying is that a cultural boycott

49:45

makes complete sense and That

49:48

if we have supported as state

49:50

policy for Russians Then

49:53

the only reason that people are having an

49:55

issue for it Israelis is because of partisan

49:57

interests. Okay and partisanship doesn't

49:59

just go for race, it

50:01

goes for affinity for that

50:04

nation. Warren Kinsella isn't

50:06

Jewish but he has

50:08

a partisan interest in this

50:10

issue, the same with any number of

50:12

people like Marco Mendocino

50:14

or whomever else. It's

50:17

become a big partisan issue that is

50:19

combined a whole bunch of people who

50:22

have ethnic affinities. It's the exact

50:24

same thing we see with the

50:26

Russians. Okay, I asked with

50:28

real genuine curiosity and there is a consistency.

50:30

You're saying that if a cultural ban is

50:32

appropriate and it's got to cover every Israeli,

50:34

if they are Arab, if they are Christian,

50:37

if they're from Israel, then they should be

50:39

banned. Their books should be banned, their art

50:41

should be banned. I understand where you stand

50:43

on this now. I would

50:45

suggest that we should defer to

50:47

what the BDS people have. And

50:51

if that means that every single Israeli should

50:53

be banned, then yeah, every single Israeli should

50:55

be banned, as every Russian is banned regardless

50:59

or not if they're Russian or Muslim

51:01

or Chinese. I take it that you

51:03

support the bans of people and art

51:05

in both of those cases. I oppose

51:07

them in all of these cases. At

51:09

least reasonable people can disagree. The

51:12

really important thing I think they said with

51:14

the Russian thing is that they're not canceling

51:17

people. But as

51:19

long as this war is on, they

51:21

are not letting them, they're putting a

51:23

pause on other stuff. It's

51:25

a rubby little position. Right now I

51:27

go online and I see people trying

51:30

to justify the banning of Miriam Labicki

51:32

going through all of her

51:34

old work and trying to pull out Dan

51:36

Bochner, a musician with Wolf Parade

51:38

and Arcade Fire. She wrote

51:40

a piece of cultural criticism about

51:43

the eroticization of Jews

51:45

in the military. And

51:47

he's looking for evidence that she's

51:49

like a Zionist and trying to

51:51

do an ad hominem attack on her

51:53

that somehow it's justifiable that her artwork

51:56

is Zionist. And if you actually spend

51:58

any time reading it, it's just... It's

52:00

exactly not that. And so it

52:02

would be one thing if the message was,

52:04

look, this is not personal, but

52:06

you are a citizen of a pariah

52:08

state and until this thing

52:11

is done, we're not going to platform your

52:13

work, whatever the work entails. But

52:15

that is not what's happening. It is

52:17

not what's happening. They are going through trying

52:19

to cancel, trying to destroy her reputation, trying

52:22

to present her as something that she is

52:24

not, having not even done the fucking time

52:26

to read her work. That

52:29

is what's happening. How do

52:31

we have this conversation and ignore that

52:33

that is what's happening? In

52:35

a matter of hours, people are trying to reverse engineer

52:37

that she is a person that we

52:39

can throw away. Exactly.

52:42

That that is, like I said, you

52:44

making the companion case for an organized

52:47

BDS boycott. Okay. Let's

52:50

ban people better. Exactly. Let's

52:53

ban people better. Let's ban individuals better.

52:55

Yes, yes. Individuals are

52:57

people. Let's ban human beings better. You're

52:59

for the book banning. I'm for more books. Jesse,

53:02

first they came for the Russians and you said

53:04

nothing because you weren't a Russian. Robert,

53:06

if you're asking me if I feel the

53:08

exact same way about Russians, I absolutely do.

53:12

Then say it. Where's your show about the Russians?

53:14

Your point is that I care more about other

53:16

Jews than I do Russians. Of course

53:18

you do. Maybe I just knew about it more.

53:20

Of course you do. Do you

53:23

cover more indigenous issues than Russian issues?

53:26

Exactly. So what are you

53:28

saying? I'm saying that this isn't a matter

53:30

of principle. No, it can be

53:32

a matter of principle and you still notice it

53:34

when they're coming after you before you'll notice it.

53:36

But if your question is, should I care about

53:38

that too? Just the same way that I want

53:40

people to care about. Yes, I agree with you,

53:42

man. You have two roles. You

53:44

wear two hats and one of them is the

53:46

big, bad press and cultural

53:49

critic. So to

53:51

have missed it this whole time as the

53:53

big, bad press and cultural critic. Missed what?

53:56

How many Russians were thrown out of arts festivals? I

53:58

shit ton. We're

54:01

seizing their stuff, we're breaking their shops. Don't

54:04

move your goal posts, okay? If we're talking

54:06

about a cultural boycott, then let's talk about

54:08

a cultural boycott of individuals, then that's the

54:10

boycott that we're discussing. So don't

54:12

broaden your lens in

54:15

order to make this a

54:17

stronger argument than you can make, okay?

54:20

But there's nothing to argue about here except for

54:22

the criticism that I accept that if this is

54:24

happening to Russians too, I should have cared about

54:27

it just as much. And I think that you

54:29

can see and have conceded that, like, yeah, we

54:31

have our biases and we have our personal perspectives

54:33

and we're going to cover our own groups when

54:35

they're under attack and notice that more. So

54:38

I think we understand. I don't know that we disagree with each

54:40

other there. I think we've at least clarified where we disagree with

54:42

each other is that you're for banning and I'm not. Oh, yeah.

54:44

Yeah, ban the shit out of them. Yeah, I mean, yeah, of

54:47

course. Obviously, BDS. All right. I'm

54:49

not sure about

54:51

this week. Robert,

54:59

thank you for joining me. I can be emailed

55:01

at Jesse at Canada Land dot com. I read

55:03

everything you send. Robert, people can hear you on

55:05

pretend the ends. Where else can they find you?

55:08

Um, on

55:10

pretend the ends. That's about it. All right.

55:14

This episode is produced by James Nicholson with

55:16

additional production by Caleb Thompson. Our editor in

55:18

chief is Karen Puglaze. Our

55:20

theme music is by so-called syndication is by

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55:24

Victoria. Visit them online at CFUV dot

55:26

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