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people are stretched. Over one

1:00

third of parents said they were concerned about

1:02

their ability to meet their childcare

1:05

costs within the next 12 months. And

1:07

lack of choice is a big problem. 57%

1:10

of them saying there is a limited

1:12

range of affordable childcare in their area.

1:15

We're seeing a lot of services giving notice

1:17

to parents of closures, in particular ECC services.

1:20

So that would be the smaller services that are

1:22

only open for three hours a day. In

1:25

particular, Rural Ireland has been hit massively at

1:27

the moment with closures. This,

1:29

combined with a countrywide lack of placements and

1:32

serious issues finding the staff to run them,

1:35

has seen parents becoming desperate. Unable

1:37

to quit work and unable to

1:39

afford what childcare is available, many

1:42

parents are turning to nannies and au pairs,

1:45

based simply on the recommendation of friends, without

1:47

necessarily, and there is no judgment here, performing

1:50

full background checks. Whilst

1:53

this often comes with no issues, it

1:55

also leaves the door wide open to

1:58

scammers. Scammers. like

2:00

Carrie Jade Warren. Now

2:30

if you've been listening to this podcast, you'll most likely

2:33

know that in the previous six

2:35

episodes, we've explored the complicated history

2:37

of Carrie Jade Williams, a British

2:39

woman living in Ireland who'd spent

2:41

10 years adopting multiple identities, scamming

2:44

families and evading the Guardi.

2:47

By the end of episode six, we'd

2:49

uncovered every detail about Carrie Jade's life,

2:52

from her traumatic past to her

2:54

fake present. But one

2:56

thing we didn't manage to discover at that point

2:59

was her whereabouts. Having

3:03

later came her home in 2022, just before

3:05

I published my article on her for Vice

3:07

World News, Carrie Jade, whose

3:09

real name is Samantha Cooks, disappeared. When

3:12

we tried to contact her on this podcast, her phone rang

3:14

out and she meant no attempt to get in touch with

3:16

us. For a while, it

3:18

seemed as though she might have realised her

3:20

lifestyle was unsustainable, and that Carrie Jade Williams

3:22

might just have stopped trying to scam people.

3:25

But then we received an email, the

3:27

consent of which is being read by our producer. Living

3:52

in Ireland, working as an

3:54

au pair. pseudonym

4:00

and still in vaguely herself into

4:02

people's lives to work with

4:04

their children. Naturally

4:07

it's not taken long this information to

4:09

hit social media and people are already

4:11

posting updates and warnings about Carrie Jade's

4:13

current locations. Listen

4:15

before we get into it it's extremely important

4:18

for us to say that despite her history

4:20

and despite her behaviour Carrie

4:22

Jade or Samantha Cooks or whatever name

4:24

she's currently going under has the right

4:26

to live freely wherever

4:28

she chooses. The law around harassment

4:31

is very clear and as such we

4:33

will not be naming the towns where Carrie

4:35

Jade has been spotted. It's equally important

4:37

to note we are not encouraging witch

4:39

hunts of this woman. Naturally

4:42

of course people have very strong feelings

4:44

about Carrie Jade's actions and I understand

4:46

that she's done great harm but this

4:48

doesn't give anyone the right to

4:51

chase her down. So with that in mind and

4:55

conscious of safeguarding what

4:57

do we know so far Kat? Well as

4:59

we mentioned in earlier episodes Carrie Jade is

5:01

an experienced and extremely effective liar. You know

5:03

she tells people about her invented lives as

5:05

easily as we talk about weather. Yeah.

5:08

And I mean at the minute her aim appears

5:10

to be securing the acceptance of a community. So

5:13

after we received this email telling us all

5:15

about Sadie we investigated and we found out

5:17

that she achieved it this time by joining

5:19

a local church and posing as a deeply

5:21

conservative Christian woman. And now

5:23

her faith has always been quite an issue with Carrie Jade. It's

5:25

always been a thing for her but at

5:27

the minute she sort of ramped that up to 50.

5:29

It's an instant community I guess isn't it?

5:31

If you're a churchgoer you can appear wherever,

5:33

speak about your faith and you will be

5:36

embraced by that religious community. Absolutely it's instant

5:38

connection to other people and it's other people

5:40

who are more likely to be friendly towards you than not.

5:42

Yes. They're well-intentioned

5:45

quite famously. So in

5:47

the course of researching this episode I actually identified the

5:49

church and we spotted her attending a service in one

5:51

of their little social media videos. This

6:01

is unreal. So as

6:04

always, she creates her lies, she creates

6:06

the myth to support the new identity

6:08

she's adopted. And in this case, that's

6:11

involved her telling people that she didn't

6:13

believe women should wear trousers. And

6:17

she didn't claim she'd baptised 150 sex workers

6:21

in a Dublin hotel. I mean, again,

6:23

it's this pattern of always

6:25

pushing it, pushing people's credibility and seeing how much she

6:28

can get away with, isn't it? I actually looked this

6:30

one up to see if there's anything on baptising sex

6:32

workers in Dublin. And to my

6:34

total lack of surprise, all I

6:36

could find was stories about baptising sex workers

6:38

in Nigeria, 5th of Dublin. I

6:41

mean, it's very, very rare, leaving

6:43

people's profession out of it, that

6:45

you have these big baptismal events.

6:50

They tend to happen, maybe we think of them

6:52

as happening in the more evangelical communities, don't we?

6:54

It's not. Yes, something that happens in suburban

6:56

Dublin or suburban UK anywhere, really. Oh, dear.

6:58

So on top of this, I also mentioned

7:01

to make contact with a former friend of

7:03

Sadie in her most recent town. And

7:05

she told us the following, because she wants to

7:07

remain anonymous and actress is reading her words. When

7:10

I first met Sadie, we bonded very

7:12

fast. At first, I thought

7:14

she was a bit intense, but she just

7:16

moved to our town and was looking for

7:18

a friend. And honestly, she was so lovely.

7:21

The background story she told me was that

7:23

she was adopted from birth to a mother

7:26

in England. She met her biological mum and

7:28

had moved over to Ireland, although

7:30

her mum lived in Cork. Really

7:32

should have clocked that something was off as to

7:34

why she was in our town when she moved

7:37

over to have a relationship with her biological mum.

7:39

But sure, you'd have no reason to think anyone would

7:41

lie in this situation. She said she

7:43

had been a nanny in America for years. We

7:46

often joked about how Americanised she'd

7:48

been. She was

7:50

so incredibly generous and kind. She'd pay for

7:53

lunch sometimes. When my child was sick, she

7:55

got them a little present to cheer them

7:57

up. She was often offering things to me.

8:00

she had left over after some outreach

8:02

work she said she'd been doing. Looking

8:04

back now, I'm remembering all those stories

8:07

and feeling daft forever believing her. And

8:10

of course I have the fear and guilt

8:12

because she was obviously around my kids a

8:14

lot. They knew her and

8:17

were comfortable with her. Something

8:19

that's hitting me now in hindsight is

8:22

that everything had a story to it.

8:25

Even her birthday which she said was on St

8:27

Patrick's Day, she had this story about being a

8:29

kid and thinking St Patrick's Day was about

8:31

her. Those kind of things. She

8:34

had told me she was going to buy a

8:36

local building space that had gone up for sale

8:38

and had plans of running kids classes. She

8:41

said she hoped I'd be able to help her

8:43

with toddler classes. But luckily

8:45

we discovered who she was before that

8:47

point. Thing is, even

8:51

now, knowing it was

8:53

all a lie, I still genuinely

8:55

missed the friendship I thought we

8:57

had. I missed

8:59

the person I thought she was. It's

9:02

strange to try and process

9:04

losing someone who never existed.

9:08

So certainly a lot of the MO

9:10

here is not new. Immediately

9:14

embedding herself in a community by

9:18

whatever strands she can find, whatever hooks

9:21

to reel people in, this time, faith,

9:25

being extremely interested

9:28

in their children. Being

9:30

generous and kind, supportive. Interesting,

9:33

the story about running kids classes echoes a lie

9:36

that she told people back in 2017 when

9:39

she lived in Cork, if I'm not mistaken. Back

9:41

then her story was slightly different. She said she was running

9:43

a children's clinic and she even had people quitting their real

9:45

jobs to work for her at that point. And

9:48

again, the story about her adoption story and the

9:50

claim of finding her mother, that's been a key

9:52

part of all her fake identities for years. So

9:55

yeah, we were told about that story by Helen, who befriended Carrie

9:57

Jade when she moved to Cairn Mare in 2020. that

10:00

she might have thought of what she told us. She was

10:02

in a mother and baby home in Cork, and

10:04

then she was adopted by a single mother

10:06

over in England, who was the first single

10:10

mother, basically, to adopt a

10:12

child on her own. She was saying that the

10:14

mother and the partner had moved over to Ireland

10:16

to Smeem, which is like half an hour away.

10:19

Well, as we've already discovered, for those of you who've

10:22

listened to the first six episodes of the podcast, none

10:24

of this is true, and her mum

10:26

still very much lives in the UK. She

10:29

absolutely does. I'm also perhaps needless

10:31

to say at this point, Sadie's birthday is not on

10:33

St. Patrick's Day, and neither is Carrie Jade's. According

10:35

to my initial investigations, Samantha's birthday is

10:37

actually in November. As before,

10:39

she is still working as no pair, most likely because

10:42

it comes with room and board, so she's not having

10:44

to pay for accommodation, or, you know, deal with landlords

10:46

asking for ID, references, all that kind of thing.

10:48

A very important point, that, yes. So the

10:51

guarantee of the family is enough. She can stay

10:53

with them, it's all good. So

10:55

we know that Sadie has no qualifications, and

10:58

more importantly, a criminal record, which really should

11:00

preclude her from working with kids, right? It

11:02

absolutely should. I mean, in the UK, anybody

11:04

who works for children or vulnerable people, they're

11:06

supposed to have a background check from the disclosure and

11:08

borrowing service. It highlights any criminal convictions,

11:11

and basically demonstrates to an employee that the person you've

11:13

hired is the person they're claiming to be. And

11:16

in Ireland, the same rules apply, but those checks are done

11:18

by something called the Garda Vetting service. It's

11:20

relentless how she's able to slip through the cracks, isn't

11:22

it? How is Sadie, Carrie Jade,

11:24

whatever name she wants to go on to

11:26

in her next iteration, how is she still

11:28

able to keep working with children? Well, the

11:31

thing about background checks is the whole system only works

11:33

if the person employing you actually asks for one. So

11:36

businesses, private properties and stuff like that, they're

11:38

regularly checked by sort of CQC and other

11:40

bodies who make sure that

11:42

all the stuff are properly vetted. But if you're working

11:44

with someone who has no pay or your private family,

11:46

and that family don't ask you for a background check

11:48

for whatever reason, there's absolutely nothing forcing

11:50

you to get one. Listen, there's no

11:52

judgment in this question, but I'm gonna ask it because I'm

11:54

sure it's the one that people listening are screaming. Why

11:57

wouldn't a family want to know that the person caring for their

11:59

children kids, the most precious thing on Earth, why

12:02

wouldn't they want to know that they are who they claim to be

12:04

and more importantly that they don't have a criminal record?

12:06

I think all parents want to know that but

12:09

as we said at the start, Ireland currently has

12:11

the third highest childcare costs in the whole of

12:13

the EU. In Dublin for example childcare can cost

12:15

up to like €1,250 a month.

12:18

It's crazy and especially when you think that the average

12:21

full-time wage in Ireland is about €3,500 a month. That

12:23

is a massive chunk of cash parents

12:25

are trying to find just to care for their kids. Yeah,

12:28

I mean you take the tax out of that monthly salary and pretty

12:30

much half of it is going to be going, just

12:32

more than half of it is going on childcare. It's crazy. And

12:35

on top of that there is a growing shortage

12:37

of good childcare places or any childcare places because

12:39

the ones that do exist are having massive issues

12:41

finding and keeping staff mostly due to training and

12:43

pay issues. So you know if

12:45

you're a parent you can't afford childcare or you just

12:47

don't have access to it where you live because you

12:49

know it's not there, there's no regulated provision, you're then

12:51

in a potentially desperate situation. And

12:53

I think parents in that situation, you know, you've got

12:55

the option of either don't work anymore or don't have

12:57

anyone to care for your kids. They're going

13:00

to jump at the chance to take on the first au

13:02

pair who comes along that seems decent, qualified, friendly and all

13:04

the rest of it. And you know we

13:06

know how good Carrie Jane is at ticking those boxes. I

13:08

just thought she was lovely, she was

13:10

caring, she was compassionate.

13:14

Carrie was an amazing motivator. I

13:16

mean she was incredible. She made

13:18

you feel like you could do

13:20

anything. She was so convincing and

13:22

really lovely in the interview we

13:25

had. So if she's still posing

13:27

as an au pair despite being unqualified, how come

13:29

the guardie are just not showing up at her

13:31

door to arrest her? Well this is a really

13:33

bloody good question. I know from her

13:35

first investigation 15 months ago that the guardie had

13:37

a really questionable history when it comes to apprehending

13:39

this woman. You know when she first got to

13:41

Ireland in 2012 the police and the court service

13:43

knew that she'd arrived on a fake ID but

13:46

she wasn't detained. Then in

13:48

2019 she was arrested for crimes

13:50

that she'd committed in 2016 and 2017. And those crimes involved taking €840

13:53

from a

13:56

parent who she'd posed as an autism therapist

13:58

for and stealing a computer. a combined amount of 700

14:01

euros from three other people. The

14:03

punishment for that was a suspended sentence of 14

14:05

weeks and two days, however. But what if she

14:07

just never stops? I mean, this is the thing.

14:10

There's always another personality, there's

14:12

always another manifestation. What

14:14

safeguards are there for people

14:16

to prevent? Somebody like

14:18

Carrie Jade, if not Carrie Jade herself, popping

14:21

up? Well, it's a really good question, and

14:23

I think mental health services need to step in at

14:25

this point, to be honest. So you

14:27

remember in previous episodes we spoke to Dr. Christian

14:29

Hart about compulsive lying? Well,

14:31

this is what he said. What we

14:34

have seen in our research is

14:36

that pathological lying tends to begin

14:38

for most people in their childhood,

14:40

usually in their teenage years, and

14:43

it does persist. And

14:45

people do try to change, though, but

14:48

they, like most habitual

14:50

behaviours, change

14:52

doesn't come easy. But I get emails

14:54

and phone calls almost every week from

14:56

people who say, hey, I've got this

14:59

problem, I've been a pathological liar my

15:01

whole life, and now I want help, I want

15:03

to change. I think it's typically

15:06

they've hit some sort of wall

15:08

in their life. They've had their fourth

15:10

marriage fail, they've been fired from their

15:12

job for the tenth time, and it

15:15

finally dawns on them they need to

15:17

make some substantial change. From

15:20

what we've seen so far, Sadie has clearly not

15:22

reached that stage. Many of the

15:24

people we've spoken to, whether they were happy with

15:26

her or angry, have real concerns about her mental

15:28

health. And it's important to

15:30

say that we can't confirm a diagnosis to this woman,

15:32

you know, we're not diagnosticians and we don't know her.

15:35

But speaking in her own defence, when she

15:37

was first convicted of fraud of Samantha Cooks,

15:39

she selected her own poor mental health as

15:41

the reason for her behaviour. I truly am

15:43

sorry. Now I am an intensive

15:46

therapy, I can see that I never dealt

15:48

with my grief after my daughter's sudden death,

15:50

and I am sorry this caused me to hurt other

15:52

people. I hope to

15:54

resolve my mental illness. This will never

15:56

erase my mistake though. Never again

15:59

will I get myself. into trouble and

16:01

never want to hurt anyone else again. The

16:04

fact that Sadie has been

16:06

uncovered and

16:08

gone presumably to another small town in Ireland to

16:10

start all over again is

16:13

becoming increasingly urgent I think to find help.

16:17

And you know I'm very much listening to what you're

16:19

saying about child care. Of course

16:21

people will be finding

16:23

the similar issues, getting mental health services,

16:25

accessing those sorts of things. Let's

16:29

talk about the victims in this case. What

16:31

can people coming into contact with somebody who

16:34

they think is fraudulent or indeed Sadie herself,

16:36

what can they do about that? Well as

16:38

we said at the start and I'll say

16:40

again now this is not a witch hunt

16:42

and we really do not want people going

16:44

out vigilante style to find Carrie Jade or

16:46

Sadie or whoever she's currently claiming to be.

16:48

There's absolutely no reason for anybody to be

16:50

tracking down this woman or confronting her. However

16:54

if she does come into contact with you or indeed

16:57

if you're taking anyone on to work with your children

16:59

you know particularly anybody new to your area there

17:01

are things you can do to protect yourself.

17:03

So if she comes to work for

17:05

you ask for services. If you're in Ireland ask for

17:08

the Guard of Etting Check or the UK ask for

17:10

a DBS check. Take stories like

17:12

one of her recent stories such as I can't talk

17:14

about my previous employers because I was in LA and

17:16

it was under an NDA. Which

17:18

one was that one? That's the most

17:20

recent one. So that's Sadie. Yeah she was working as

17:22

an O-Pair and told them that

17:26

she couldn't talk about her previous employers because it was in

17:28

Los Angeles under an NDA. That's

17:31

a non-disclosure agreement because they're not

17:33

familiar. Yes well okay so your

17:35

advice would be if somebody says

17:37

they can't disclose their past because

17:39

of non-disclosure agreement then just don't

17:41

risk it. Seriously take it with them who's

17:43

to control you know. Everybody has

17:46

something they can disclose about their work

17:48

history. Yes exactly and that's

17:51

sort of slightly grandiose and mysterious kind

17:53

of answer is sort of peak. It's

17:55

peak carriage aid is it not? It

17:57

really is. forecast,

18:00

we can sometimes refer to Samantha or Carrie

18:02

Jade or Sadie to, you know, I mean,

18:04

they're all interchangeable, of course, in a way.

18:06

In terms

18:08

of her mental health, though,

18:10

we obviously talked about people

18:12

safeguarding themselves against fraudulent behaviour.

18:14

But in terms of Carrie

18:16

Jade's mental health, it's

18:19

very hard to get somebody into help

18:21

A, if that help is not very present, and

18:23

also if they're not recognising they have a problem.

18:26

It is. There's a threshold for people being

18:28

involuntarily taken into treatment and it is incredibly

18:30

high. It needs to show a clear

18:32

likelihood of them causing immediate harm to themselves or immediate

18:34

harm to somebody else. With Carrie

18:36

Jade, Sadie so far, she's shown none of

18:39

those kinds of behaviours. There are, however,

18:41

a number of things you can do to help those around

18:43

you suffering with poor mental health. The

18:45

Irish Health Service website recommends various steps that

18:47

people can take. What if

18:50

I'm worried about someone close to me but they're

18:52

unwilling to consider getting help? It's

18:54

usually better that that person goes for help

18:56

themselves. In the short term, this can be

18:59

hard to tolerate. But acknowledging that

19:01

help is necessary and going voluntarily for

19:03

help is an important part of the

19:05

process of recovery. This does not

19:07

mean that you should not continue to communicate

19:09

your concerns and keep an open dialogue. In

19:12

this situation, if you're very close to the

19:15

person or are living with them, it's important

19:17

to ensure that you don't neglect yourself and

19:19

that you mind your own mental health and

19:21

continue to make use of your own network

19:23

of support and activities. Both

19:25

of us have looked at this website and essentially it

19:28

recommends that you just try and

19:30

talk directly with a person about

19:32

your observations and concerns. That's the

19:34

first positive step, just very calmly

19:36

and clearly express concern. Absolutely.

19:39

It's not about confrontation. It's a thing to remember. You're

19:41

not going to achieve anything by screaming at somebody. You're

19:43

not going to achieve anything by going, haha, I

19:45

proved you out. You're a liar. And certainly in

19:47

the case of Carrie Jade, she'll just bolt and

19:50

go to another town. It's also important to listen

19:52

carefully to responses. So obviously if you feel that

19:54

you've been the victim of fraudulent behaviour, it's understandable

19:56

you'll become incredibly angry. But go on and listen

19:58

carefully to the response. without being judgmental

20:01

or indeed intervening to offer

20:03

solutions which is important. Yeah,

20:05

she's clearly not in any position to I think accept

20:07

who she is at this point, accept what

20:09

she's doing. Very much doubt she's going to be

20:12

in a position to take a solution from you. But

20:14

if you can talk, if you can get her talking at

20:16

all, that's better than nothing. If that

20:18

happens, then try and make your decision about how serious

20:20

you think the problem is and then whether you need

20:23

to take that further in the search to get help.

20:27

It's obviously always better that the person goes

20:29

for help themselves. And

20:31

that's hard to tolerate at first, but

20:33

acknowledging that help is necessary

20:35

is a very important first step. And

20:37

I can't necessarily say that I think

20:40

Kerry Jade slash Sadie slash Samantha is ready

20:42

to take that step. But it's very, very

20:44

important that we feel at this stage of

20:47

the podcast that we just make you aware.

20:50

So yeah, at this point, it's obvious that she's not in a

20:52

place where she can get help herself in

20:54

a position to stop. So it's important that

20:56

you put yourself in a position of decreased

20:58

vulnerability. Make yourself less susceptible to

21:00

any scam she might be trying to run. And,

21:03

you know, I've been the victim of fraudulent

21:05

behaviour myself. And the only

21:07

redress for that, because frankly,

21:10

the instruments to rectify that are

21:12

quite weak in terms

21:14

of government support and local support. So

21:16

the only thing you can do really

21:19

is to educate yourself, as

21:21

I had to, and arm yourself for

21:23

future experiences, which is

21:25

essentially your job, is it not, Kat? So yeah,

21:27

there are other things you can do that are very similar to what

21:29

I do when I start investigation. So if

21:31

you start out chatting to your own pair of mind, asking for

21:33

a picture or a Zoom meeting, you

21:35

know, you want to get to see who they are before you meet them in person. If

21:38

they send you a picture or you take a screenshot from the Zoom meeting,

21:41

use Google Lens or some kind of similar app

21:43

to do a reverse image search and see what

21:46

comes up. If they refuse to

21:48

let you see them at all, that's likely to be a bit of

21:50

a red flag. You need to know why aren't you letting me see

21:52

you? Yes, I mean, it's always

21:57

very, very important, I think, before you let

21:59

anybody in. into your home or engage with

22:01

them. You want to do a pre-interview

22:04

online, do you not? And

22:06

then just do a little bit of background checking

22:09

yourself before the doorbell goes in

22:11

your home. Absolutely. It's much easier to stop a

22:13

situation before it starts than to have somebody in

22:15

your home and then be like, oh god, now

22:17

what? So what if

22:19

you're given an email address, for example?

22:21

So they go, OK, I'm

22:23

super interested in this job. Here's my email address. Again,

22:26

you can Google an email address. If you Google the email

22:28

address, then it rocks by a number of other au pair

22:30

sites, so it leads you to a different social media page

22:32

for them. Great. You can dig a little deeper and make

22:35

sure your person is who they are. Fantastic.

22:37

You know, maybe there are other reviews

22:39

from other customers. There's all sorts of stuff that an email address can

22:41

lead you to. If again, nothing

22:44

comes up, that's not necessarily as big a red flag

22:46

as the picture. So don't worry too much. Obviously, in

22:48

combination with the other steps, it matters. Yeah,

22:50

you presumably want to get references, don't you?

22:52

It's not just enough to go, yeah, I

22:55

worked for Jane Smith in Los Angeles. You need

22:57

to find out who Jane was, maybe speak to

22:59

Jane, maybe engage with the Jane, you know. You

23:01

need details that are checkable. It's not good enough to have

23:03

a name or even just a random picture. You

23:06

need to know where she is, who she is. Don't

23:08

just get email addresses either because we know from the

23:10

past Carrie Jade has had fake email addresses that relate

23:12

back to herself. So if

23:14

you can, if you should, get a phone number

23:16

for the references, get something you can ring and

23:18

physically check. Now, obviously, most people's lives are played

23:21

out on social media. Presumably, that's also going to... I

23:23

mean, I'm not encouraging, by the way, people to sort

23:25

of do a deep dive to the point it becomes

23:27

slightly obsessive and weird. But, you know, if

23:30

somebody has posted something on a public forum, it's fair game

23:32

for you to have a look at it and just sort

23:34

of gauge what sort of person they are at the outside

23:36

of work and in work. I'm not saying go

23:38

out and do what I do, don't spend days deep diving

23:40

people. That's slightly worrying. And

23:42

I've told you to stop doing it to me, Cat.

23:44

That's sorry. It's just too interesting. What can I say?

23:46

You have lots of dog pictures. So many. So many.

23:49

So many. So, yeah,

23:51

if you're getting an au pair, if you're hiring an

23:53

au pair, ask for the links to their social media

23:55

profiles or go and look for them yourself. You know, find

23:57

them on Facebook, find them on Twitter, Instagram and so forth.

24:00

Have a look at what's on there. Just a quick

24:02

glance to prove to yourself that this is a real

24:04

person living a real life. If there

24:06

are no searchable profiles that you find one that's set

24:08

up like yesterday, go back to step

24:10

one, do reverse image search on the pictures. The aim is

24:13

to prove to yourself that this person is who they're telling

24:15

you they are. If you find that

24:17

they're lying about their identity then you don't even have to

24:19

confront them. Just simply say, you know, you decide to hire

24:21

somebody else. And you can report them to the OPAO website

24:23

or the police if you feel that necessary. The

24:26

problem is, as humans, I don't know about you,

24:28

but I feel we're programmed not to rock the

24:30

boat. So, you know, we're psychologically predisposed just getting

24:32

along, trying to, you know, go along with the

24:34

flow, get along with everybody. And so there's

24:37

lots of people out there who might be like me

24:39

and say, I don't want to shy away from confrontation.

24:41

But it is perfectly reasonable to question the validity of

24:44

the person you're letting into your home. I'm not lucky

24:46

enough to be a parent, but doubly so when you're

24:48

letting them have access to your kids. And

24:50

however nice someone seems, anyone

24:53

genuinely seeking a job surely expects to be

24:55

checked out. You and I go to

24:57

work and we are checked out, you know. Essentially,

25:00

people with nothing to hide are pretty happy

25:03

to be forthcoming about their work history. So please

25:05

don't be afraid to ask questions. The

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at uh1.com. I

26:30

think at this point, we want to speak directly to

26:32

Sadie now. So, I've got no idea

26:34

if she's listening, or if she's in a place to make space

26:37

for what we're saying, but I still think it's really important to

26:39

say it. So, in the course

26:41

of my recent investigation, I've actually obtained a new current

26:43

phone number for her, and I would like to try

26:45

and call her again. She still deserves

26:48

a right to reply, and I really want to speak directly

26:50

to her. You know, I want to try

26:52

and understand what is going on for her at the moment,

26:54

because she's been chased from one town, she's hovering in wherever

26:56

she is now. That's not a good place

26:58

to be in. I want to see how she's doing. I mean, this is

27:00

potentially another pressure point moment for her, because

27:05

she has been found out, she's moved,

27:07

we don't know where to, but

27:10

she's in flight, in transit, and presumably

27:12

in a cocoon state, waiting

27:14

for another identity to emerge, if one hasn't already emerged. So, this

27:16

is a, yes, a key moment to be phoning her. This

27:20

is something you do all the time. I always get

27:22

really scared when we come to this bit, only because I want

27:24

her to be OK, but I also want her to stop. And

27:28

those are the two things that have informed this podcast from the

27:30

very beginning. Are you OK? Can you stop? And

27:35

so, let's see if we

27:37

can ask those things. Let's

27:39

try. Sorry,

27:48

the number you have dialed is no longer in service. Well,

27:51

there you go. Isn't that just the way of

27:53

it? So, listen, when

27:55

did you first get that number? About five

27:57

days ago. So, that's the speed at

27:59

which she's changed. changing. So do you think at this point she's

28:01

just using burner phones, picking them up, dropping them? She

28:04

must be. I'm guessing

28:07

that she changes numbers every time she

28:09

leaves a town. I mean, this

28:11

is assuming nobody else has tried to ring her on this, because

28:13

obviously the person I got this number from won't be the only

28:15

person that had it. And

28:17

I've seen online there's a lot of social media wondering

28:19

where she is, who she is, people trying to track

28:22

her down. So it's possible that somebody else had to

28:24

go or even just that she's freaked out and changed

28:26

it for that reason. This is the thing. This

28:28

is the complexity of this story. It's a

28:30

woman who makes people

28:32

care about her, who

28:34

offers a service that is invaluable. And

28:37

those bonds are hard to break even when people

28:39

know that they've been played, even when her identities

28:42

revealed, they still have

28:44

those tendrils of feeling, you know, and

28:48

that's what makes it such a complicated

28:50

and painful story. The fact

28:52

that the number is inaccessible after just a few days,

28:55

it's just not a way for a person to be

28:57

living. You know, it is unsustainable.

28:59

It's dangerous. And above all of

29:01

that, actually, it must be incredibly lonely.

29:04

This is not a real life

29:06

game of guess who it's said his life.

29:08

This is the amount of his life and it's also the lives

29:11

of the people that some have harm.

29:14

And they deserve to feel safe and to be able to trust

29:16

their friends. And some app has

29:18

a right to live without being chased from town

29:20

to town. And the more

29:22

the phones get changed, the more identities there

29:24

are, the more pressure there's going to be

29:26

and there's going to be the intervals between

29:29

moving are going to become a shorter and

29:31

shorter, I think. Yeah, I mean, I

29:33

don't even know money wise how she's staring at

29:35

the minute, because there was a newspaper article in

29:37

the last week, when was it March 3? There

29:40

was a newspaper article in the Irish press about how

29:42

her landlord was found to be in

29:44

the right for partially in the

29:46

right for evicting her and that she owed him X amount

29:48

of back rent. Right, which

29:51

he accepted in the paper that he's never going to get back

29:53

because obviously where she getting this money from, she's

29:55

pushing it to the limit at the moment, people

29:57

are catching up, the state will eventually catch up.

30:00

up, the housing board is already on tour because

30:02

of the issues with her landlord. She's

30:04

going to find herself in a position where she has no

30:06

way of living, or has no

30:08

way of finding a home and making a living. And

30:11

that's really concerning for me, because I'm

30:13

not sure what happens at that point.

30:15

How much we've talked at the beginning,

30:17

obviously, about her latest iteration being very,

30:19

very faith based and how faith is

30:21

always sort of interwoven between her previous

30:23

personalities, but it's very hard line now,

30:25

very hard line. How

30:28

much of that do you think is a posture and

30:30

how much of that is actually really creeping into her

30:32

psyche? It's difficult. I mean, I see

30:35

it. I think she's looking for salvation. I think she

30:37

wants to be rescued. I don't

30:40

think she can accept her own response, take responsibility

30:42

for her own part in her trouble. She's

30:45

incapable, I think, from the white scene

30:47

of acknowledging that she's caused any of

30:49

her own issues. And from that,

30:51

in that respect, I think the closer she gets to her

30:53

God, the closer she gets to being saved, you know, if

30:55

Jesus is all right with me, I'm all right with me.

30:58

And I think there's an element, it feels like there's an element

31:00

of that. I mean, there's obviously a lot of posturing with the,

31:02

I baptised 100% workers in

31:04

the Dublin Hotel, and it's wanting people to see you

31:06

as something you're not. But that's links

31:09

to everything she tells people, everything she tells people to

31:12

have them go, wow, really? It's

31:14

interesting for me that dynamic, it's about wanting

31:16

to be saved by a higher being, but also

31:19

betraying herself as a higher being in

31:21

communities. So it completely flips.

31:23

She's the one that everybody wants in

31:25

a small community where she can suddenly provide

31:28

childcare or autistic support or, you know, surrogacy

31:30

or whatever it might be, or is

31:33

a preacher and faith healer. But

31:35

yes, it's a really, really interesting

31:37

dynamic that both the

31:40

provider of salvation and in desperate need

31:43

of it from above. If

31:45

the God, he don't believe she's committed any crimes, they can't step

31:48

in and stop her. And likewise, you know,

31:50

we're not going to be in a position, we definitely

31:52

want to be in a position in fact, where anyone's

31:54

being prosecuted for crimes they might commit. Yes, that's, it's

31:56

not minority. Yes. It's not

31:59

something very clear. about that. You know, she has

32:01

a behavioral pattern, and we can guess that she's probably

32:03

going to do it again and again till she's stopped.

32:05

But equally, it's very important that we don't say, Be

32:08

on your guard, she's coming for you. We don't

32:10

want to create stress and drama where there isn't.

32:13

No, that's absolutely unnecessary. We don't need that.

32:15

I think at the minute, the best people can do

32:18

is just making themselves aware of the situation, you know,

32:20

obviously, it's easier said than done, you want to be

32:22

friendly, especially to the new girl in town, especially to

32:24

the new amazing Christian girl in town, who's just joined

32:26

your church, and she's amazing, but she's all by herself.

32:29

And she's not feeling so well. Although

32:31

interestingly, when I spoke to her newest

32:33

best friend, she is no longer claiming

32:35

to have Huntington's disease. That's been dropped.

32:38

So she's no longer gaining sympathy

32:41

through illness. In

32:43

fact, she's much more

32:47

empowered by faith. And this coming in

32:49

actually is quite a sort of strong

32:52

alpha kind of character, which

32:54

will also get you a lot of attention. Absolutely.

32:57

It's making her a lot of friends. But you know, it is

33:00

possible to be friendly to somebody to welcome them

33:02

into your community. And to still keep those boundaries

33:04

to keep yourself safe. No is

33:06

perfectly reasonable. Not trusting someone the minute you meet

33:08

them is totally fine. It does not make you

33:10

a terrible person. You are allowed to

33:12

be suspicious of people you don't know, especially when

33:14

they're telling you incredibly tall stories. I

33:17

just want to take just a brief break to

33:19

talk about human capital here, because this is somebody

33:23

who is smart, who

33:25

can bond with people who can make

33:27

friends, who's fun, who's we've had

33:29

lots of lots of very positive things said about

33:31

her. All that brilliance,

33:35

twisted by what we suspect might be mental

33:37

health issues and deep trauma of the past.

33:39

And it's such a waste.

33:42

And if only we had systems in

33:44

place, proper mental health facilities, you know,

33:47

this might be a very different situation. I

33:50

find it devastating for all concerns, you know,

33:52

no, it absolutely is. I mean, if she's

33:54

unwell enough to the point that her baby

33:56

was deemed not safe in her custody, if

33:59

she's unwell enough. that she ran from one country to

34:01

another on a fake ID. How

34:03

was she just allowed to go with

34:05

no backup, no help, no plan in

34:07

place, no care plans, no anything? Where

34:10

was the duty of care at that

34:12

point? Yeah, we talk a lot about the gaps

34:14

in policing and the gaps in monitoring her and holding her

34:18

to account. There should

34:21

have been the arms of the

34:23

state at some point along this

34:25

journey. I think she's stuck in this

34:27

bizarre cycle at the minute. I think, like you rightly

34:29

said, she is both the God and the

34:31

seeker of the salvation. She is

34:33

both completely in control of what she's

34:35

doing and spiraling into this terrifying position

34:38

of absolute nonsense at

34:40

times. I think she told one of her new

34:42

friends she wanted to buy the local car park

34:44

and convert it. Yeah. There's

34:46

always one, isn't there? There's an embedding, there's a

34:48

very good early settling in period where everyone really

34:50

loves her and then she'll just go too far

34:52

with a lie. And as

34:54

you say, the car park was the bridge too far in

34:56

this particular

34:59

scenario. This

35:01

episode really has been to update people

35:04

as to her latest iteration

35:07

and to tell that story. But

35:10

also, and it's always such a,

35:12

there's so many tendrils to this. It's also

35:14

to say, we're not actively

35:16

trying to hunt her down. We're just trying

35:18

to arm you, the listener, it's

35:21

not only somebody like her or her specifically

35:23

coming to your town, but anybody who pretends

35:25

to be something they aren't. It's

35:27

so easy online at the minute. You can

35:30

literally be anybody you want within five minutes.

35:32

You can set up a fake profile anywhere

35:34

and start an identity of your own in a story to go

35:36

with it. And it's so important to

35:39

arm yourself against that because on a

35:41

big scale, yes, you've got political interference on

35:43

a smaller scale, on a more effective scale.

35:45

In fact, you've got people like Carrie Jades,

35:47

Samantha Cook, so whatever, people who will have

35:49

real world effects on real people's lives. And

35:51

it's so important to be aware of that

35:53

and so important to be able to stand

35:56

up to that if you'd like. Well,

35:58

so hopefully we've armed. people to

36:02

go and get the information they

36:04

need to work with good solid

36:06

people in their homes to look

36:08

after their kids. Hopefully also we've

36:10

sent a message of support to

36:12

Carrie Jade saying we are here

36:14

wherever and whenever you wish to

36:16

speak to us. But also to those

36:18

listening who want to play detective and let's face it the

36:20

human need is strong to find the truth. Go

36:23

carefully this is not a witch hunt we're

36:26

not trying to push somebody who is in

36:28

trouble into even more trouble. As

36:33

always we hope that Samantha Sadie, Carrie

36:36

Jade, all of her iterations will come

36:38

to the realization that something different, something better

36:40

is possible. And for

36:42

everybody else we'll just open a safer position and

36:44

take care. Carrie

36:47

Jade Does Not Exist is an audio

36:50

always original production hosted by me Sue

36:52

Perkins and her Catherine Denkenson. Catherine

36:55

Denkenson reported the original story and also wrote

36:57

the series. This episode was produced by

36:59

Jo Meek and the exec producer

37:01

is Elsa Rochester. Craig Edmondson is

37:03

our sound designer. Are

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