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Discover Bank member FDIC. Hi,

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I'm Maya Rupert. As

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all win. When

1:00

We Win with Maya Rupert, out

1:02

now wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonade.

1:16

It can be so hard to

1:19

choose to be positive when the

1:21

world can be so cruel, so

1:23

challenging. It's really hard to remind

1:25

yourself to lean into love when

1:27

so many other things need your

1:29

attention. Thinking about parenthood.

1:32

Parenthood can be so overwhelming

1:34

on its easiest days. And

1:37

it can be words that I'm not even sure

1:39

I'm allowed to say on this network on its

1:41

very worst days. My husband and I,

1:43

we have three kids. But before

1:45

that, we had two, two

1:47

kids, two full time jobs.

1:50

Then we decided to add a

1:52

third child. And at that time,

1:55

our biggest concern

1:57

wasn't space. I mean, it should have

1:59

been. our apartment was ridiculously

2:02

tiny. One of our

2:04

children slept in a drawer. It

2:06

wasn't even money. And again, it should

2:08

have been. Kids are uncoddly

2:11

expensive. It was

2:13

actually love. We were so worried that

2:16

we would be depriving our

2:19

children from attention

2:21

and love by focusing on someone

2:23

else. Plus the average number of

2:25

kids per American family is two. And

2:28

who are we to say that we're above average? But

2:31

in the end, we realized something that

2:33

I think a lot of people in

2:35

this situation realize. Hurts

2:37

can expand and

2:39

accommodate. There's always more love to

2:41

go around. If you are able

2:44

to do so, always choose

2:46

love. I thought about this

2:48

a lot after having a conversation

2:50

with our next guest. This

3:05

is Joyce Ward. I'm Samantha

3:07

Bee. My book today is so

3:10

super thoughtful and charming. Karamo Brown.

3:12

You love him from Queer Eye

3:14

and his talk show, Karamo. And

3:17

I got to talk to him

3:19

about choosing love, choosing forgiveness, and

3:21

choosing fatherhood. He tells himself

3:23

every day that there is an abundance of

3:26

love out there. And I absolutely

3:28

love that. Take a listen

3:30

and make good choices. Karamo,

3:45

I am so excited to see you again.

3:47

Oh, I know it's been way

3:49

too long. It has been way too long. And here you

3:52

are. I know that to realize

3:54

that no one can see us right now, but

3:56

you are in your studio for Karamo, right?

3:58

Are you? It

4:00

feels nice to be here. Oh, it

4:02

must feel so nice. It's incredible

4:05

what you're doing. Well, you

4:07

know this process. You know what it is. To

4:10

be able to be in somewhere and to

4:12

have a little bit of control and to

4:14

be making sure your voice is heard, it

4:16

feels nice. Oh, that is a good feeling.

4:20

OK, we have so much to talk

4:23

about today. But

4:25

one of the things I want to ask

4:27

you about before we, as we launch into

4:29

this, because this podcast is about choice and

4:31

choices that we've made in our

4:33

lives and big choices and small choices and

4:35

something, you know, things

4:37

that reverberate through your life that maybe

4:40

didn't even seem like big decisions at

4:42

the time, but actually were so impactful.

4:45

So I want to talk to you

4:47

first about your relationship to choice. What

4:51

kind of a decision maker are you? I'm

4:54

very decisive. I was just going to

4:56

say, you seem like a

4:58

very decisive. The sharp

5:00

lines of your blazer are communicating.

5:03

The beard is just so sharp. This

5:06

is what it is. We're doing this

5:08

and that. But

5:11

that decisiveness, even within that, has

5:13

evolved. Oh, really? Because I realized

5:16

that early on my decisiveness was

5:18

a protection that I had. It

5:20

was me being able to cut

5:23

things off very quickly. I'm going to

5:25

say I'm not going right. I'm going

5:27

left because I lived in a sort

5:29

of fear-based place. Majority of

5:31

my life, as a child who didn't have

5:34

a lot of stability, there was always an

5:36

underlining of fear. And

5:38

decisiveness gave me the illusion

5:40

of control. And

5:43

yeah, it made me feel like, OK, I'm

5:45

controlling my life. So I don't have to

5:47

ever feel insecure or unsecure again

5:50

because I've just made a

5:52

decision. Instead of realizing

5:54

that sometimes the

5:56

decisiveness was an

5:58

illusion. Wow. And I really

6:00

didn't have control. I was making

6:03

a choice because I thought this is what

6:05

would make me feel safe. And I realize

6:07

now that though I'm decisive,

6:09

there's a lot of thought, there's

6:12

a lot of understanding of like,

6:15

okay, how does this affect me? How

6:18

is this affecting? I asked this question myself always,

6:20

sorry, and not to go too deep. No,

6:22

no, no, no, no, this is so interesting. I

6:25

asked myself, and I do this all

6:27

the time, I asked myself, how would

6:29

baby Kuramo, how was teenage Kuramo, and

6:31

how is Kuramo now all going to

6:34

relate to this decisive decision? Because

6:38

baby me wanted to be loved and

6:40

protected. Teenage me was rebellious

6:42

and wanted to fight back. And present

6:44

me is older and wants peace. And

6:47

decisive decisions have to be able to

6:50

make sure that they're aligning and healing

6:52

and giving to all three of those

6:54

versions of me. Because all three of those versions of

6:56

me live in me. And so

6:58

my decisiveness is not the wall

7:00

and illusion of control that it

7:02

was before. It's now a thoughtful

7:05

decisiveness. I feel like I

7:07

relate to that in a way. Like

7:09

I feel like there's something about, you

7:12

know, when you're going through, when there's trauma

7:14

in your life, there's something about cutting people

7:16

out of your life, cutting people out of

7:18

your heart, and you have to do it.

7:20

Yes. Like excising

7:23

a tumor or something like that. You just have to

7:25

make a move. Yes, yes.

7:28

But it's that illusion

7:30

of fake security. It's

7:32

fake control. And

7:35

I didn't want to do that anymore. And

7:37

so, and now I'm just

7:39

thoughtful about the versions of me that

7:41

still live in me that need to

7:43

constantly be healed and loved on and

7:45

to be acknowledged and how my decisions

7:47

affect all of us. And it sounds

7:49

like I'm talking about myself is that

7:51

multi-personality, but it's not. It's just

7:54

baby, baby Samantha is still in there. Baby

7:56

Sam is still in there. And whatever happened

7:58

as a kid and whatever happened is... teenage

8:00

Sam is still in there, and that one wants to

8:02

fight and kick ass, and she wants to

8:05

change the world and adult you. I

8:08

still wouldn't be both those people who want

8:10

love and to fight, but I also want

8:13

some peace and honesty and kindness

8:15

and clarity, and

8:17

my decisions align with all three

8:20

of them. Everything that you're

8:22

saying so, so thoughtfully is what I see.

8:24

And I'm going to come back to this

8:26

point, but everything that you're saying right now

8:28

is what I see in your show. Your

8:32

patience with people, the way that

8:34

you speak so tenderly to them

8:37

as they're in crisis or like trying to

8:39

make sense of the different versions

8:42

of themselves or whatever it is,

8:44

the trauma that they're experiencing. I

8:47

feel that mature Karamo coming

8:49

to like acknowledge the past,

8:52

but also try to like make a path

8:55

forward. You're so sweet. I

8:57

appreciate that. Like God, honestly, I really

8:59

appreciate that. A hundred percent true. Thank

9:01

you. A hundred percent true. You can see

9:03

it in every episode. You really can see it. Is

9:07

there a choice that you can look back on in

9:09

your life that you think really changed, I

9:12

guess changed the trajectory of your life, maybe in

9:15

an either in a very

9:17

expected way or or something very unexpected?

9:20

I mean, there's two choices that

9:23

I think really affected me big time

9:25

that worked real choice that I know

9:27

that I made and that changed directory.

9:30

One is physical and one is more emotional. So

9:34

the emotional one was the day

9:36

I stopped living in fear

9:39

based decision making and more abundance based

9:41

decision making. Okay. Which was big

9:43

for me because again, unstable childhood,

9:45

like things going on, you know,

9:47

abuse in my household. Daddy

9:51

drinking and smoking too much weed. I thought everything was always going

9:53

to be taken away. Then

9:55

one day I realized that like if even if something

9:58

is taken away. God

10:01

and the universe and I will still provide. It

10:04

will still come. I don't

10:06

have to be fearful that I'll be left

10:08

out without anything. More

10:11

will come because I deserve it and

10:14

I'm walking in line with truth

10:16

and honesty that I'm going to get more. So if

10:18

I lose this job, I've never been fearful that I

10:20

won't get another. If

10:23

I lose this relationship, I'm not fearful that I

10:25

won't get another because I no longer live in

10:27

that fear-based place that I used to live in.

10:29

And that was a conscious choice that

10:31

I had to practice where I'd see myself

10:33

staying in a relationship that was so...that I knew

10:35

I wasn't supposed to be in. And then

10:37

I was like, come on, you

10:40

deserve more than this. And there's an abundance of love

10:42

out there that you're going to get. And I would

10:44

have to repeat that to myself daily, Karamo. There's an

10:46

abundance of love out there that you're going to get.

10:49

And it just...it took away the

10:51

power from the fear. So that was

10:53

the one choice that I made that changed directory.

10:55

And... Really, really good. That's a

10:57

practice. That is a practice that you have

11:00

to do. Practice, practice. And then

11:02

when I became...when I found out that I was

11:04

a father, because my

11:06

path to fatherhood was a little

11:08

bit untraditional, I

11:10

let people into my sexuality when I was 15. And

11:14

I had one best friend who

11:17

wanted to lose her virginity, but

11:20

she didn't want to do it with her boyfriend because she didn't want...he

11:22

was older and she didn't want to see like, an

11:24

experience. So she

11:26

convinced my gay ass to have sex. And

11:29

I was like, why? You know I'm a hobo. And she

11:32

was like, come on, let's try it. And

11:34

I said, okay, like being

11:37

an idiot teenager. And

11:40

it lasted all of one minute and then

11:43

she moved away. And then 10

11:45

years later, she was like, surprise, here's your

11:47

kid. Wow.

12:00

All to to take custody of

12:02

my science Say that that choice.

12:04

That. Choice because I was like I could live in the

12:06

i'm upset at you for not some of you on my

12:09

kid for ten years and what you did to him, what

12:11

you did to me all the stuff that I would like.

12:13

I forgive you. I forgive you. Add

12:16

to sit choice salmon get closer with

12:18

you and and also. Are

12:20

making a choice to. Take

12:22

custody of my son because you I

12:24

didn't. I miss them and years, how

12:26

do I miss another one? And both

12:28

sides is deeply impacted my life. Oh

12:31

believe that as I'm a

12:33

huge choice. Now said that

12:35

is that is like a

12:37

very that's like that is

12:39

next level. For. Deafness girl

12:42

and better. Than as a

12:44

practice the to like that is something is

12:46

so. Intense. small yeah and

12:48

so healing for years. So healthy

12:51

for you to be able. To do

12:53

that but not as us on easy. It

12:55

wasn't, and to be honest with you at at

12:57

the moment, I didn't know they

12:59

are doing it for me. I I

13:01

was doing it for. On

13:04

Baby Corral Rice who saw

13:06

himself in my son. Who

13:09

saw. She's. Gonna have

13:11

issues about his father and not being there

13:13

and issues of liked his in Paris by

13:15

getting along and so I was like why

13:17

don't want him to do what I did

13:19

so I'm gonna forgive you for him I.i'm

13:21

going to forgive me for hand by and

13:23

then later on when I got older I

13:26

was like oh that decision was really for

13:28

my baby Me. I wanted some had

13:30

a big that is is now one the

13:32

adults in my life to make better choices

13:34

for me because I'm asked to be here

13:36

and I wanted that and soaps. I made

13:38

the better choice for him because he made

13:40

it for me and an hour and it

13:42

was for him for the long time because

13:44

she would. They would

13:46

suit piss me off. the. Way

13:49

we have we have a lot of different

13:51

choice making the to this day I love

13:53

her to death on but. i

13:56

wouldn't every time that would happen i would make

13:58

a choice to be thoughtful,

14:00

intentional, and forgiving because

14:03

I wanted him to see better. And

14:06

it worked. It worked. Oh my

14:08

gosh. And what a gift for

14:11

him to be chosen. Do

14:13

you know what I mean? To be

14:15

so intentionally chosen. Really?

14:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

14:23

I see the adult that he's become and how

14:25

the justity is. And I know it

14:27

was that. He went from

14:29

seeing feeling alone, feeling

14:31

distant, feeling isolated, feeling like things are

14:33

going to always be in confusion

14:36

to, oh, people are

14:38

choosing to be better for me and

14:40

I'm priority. And I see how he

14:42

responds to life now and I'm like, thank God. Thank

14:45

God you did that. For you and

14:47

for him and for your whole entire family. That

14:50

kind of limitless love

14:52

is... But I didn't know in the moment. No,

14:55

no, no. Of course. No,

14:58

no, no, no. Like, reading my teeth and being like,

15:01

oh, just put a payoff one day because I'm

15:03

so... You know. Have

15:07

your career choices changed a lot since you

15:09

became a parent? How

15:11

have you navigated that world

15:13

because your career has exploded,

15:16

obviously? Yeah. Well,

15:19

you know, I believe in there's a bigger and

15:21

diviner plan that I'm like, I

15:23

always knew I wanted kids. Like when I was in

15:25

college, I was like, I want a husband and I

15:28

want kids and anything. Like I was

15:30

very traditional. I still am very traditional. I still want

15:32

marriage and all that stuff. And

15:35

it's not for everybody, for me. But

15:38

I was like, you know,

15:41

the universe guy had a bigger plan because if

15:43

I would have tried now, I wouldn't

15:46

have been... Like being able to have my son, like my

15:48

son is 26 now. Which

15:50

gave me the ability to now

15:52

when... Like

15:54

I'm still young. I'm 42. They're

15:57

like, now I'm like able to travel and do my career.

16:00

careers are demanding that I'm like if I had

16:02

a toddler on my shoulder, I couldn't do it.

16:05

And what I could as many people do but

16:09

there'd be so much guilt that I'd have to

16:11

be working through and things that I'd have to

16:13

be figuring out where now I'm like okay. He

16:16

can kind of go on that journey with

16:18

you a little bit like you are. He's

16:20

on it yeah he comes with me where

16:22

we do stuff together because he's 26 so it's

16:24

like you know about to be 27 and

16:26

I'm like oh this works, this works. We'll

16:29

be right back with Karamo after this. If

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just bought something on Quince and

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I didn't do that. What

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the hell? Oh,

18:28

I'm so mad at myself now. Okay,

18:39

I want to go back to the start of

18:41

your career a little bit. When

18:44

you started, you were the first, is

18:46

this right? That you were the first

18:48

openly gay black man to ever appear

18:50

on television? Is that true? No,

18:52

on reality television. On reality television,

18:54

okay. That's the specific. Because the

18:56

rule was the first ever,

18:59

like, you know, that we saw. And then I was

19:01

the first on reality

19:04

television because no one had ever been on reality television.

19:06

Did you know that? Did you, when you

19:08

decided to do real world, did you know

19:11

that? No, I was a college kid that was like, I

19:13

can go in a house and get drunk. They're gonna give

19:15

me like $5,000 to spend my summer in a mansion with

19:19

a hot tub? Sure, sign me up. I

19:22

wasn't even thinking about like, let's

19:24

be on this show and make the

19:26

other. Let us increase representation in the

19:29

TV landscape. Exactly. I want

19:31

representation and

19:33

diverse. I want people to know. I

19:36

was like, so how much liquor is in here? Do

19:38

I get it? I need a whole

19:43

slushy machine. Exactly. Just for

19:45

me. For my flavors.

19:49

Exactly.

19:51

It is a truth. It is a

19:53

truth. I mean, I found out later because after it

19:55

was done, it was like, oh my

19:58

gosh, like you've done this. And

20:01

it's wild because I remember when I

20:04

shot this in 2004, we

20:06

went to a black gay

20:08

club on the show, as they follow you

20:10

to clubs on those reality shows. Yeah. And

20:13

nobody wanted to get on camera because

20:15

the stigma in the black community and

20:17

communities of color was so much. And

20:20

there were so many people that were

20:22

still dying. I mean, still, trans women

20:24

of color died, high rates, gay men

20:26

of color are still at risk. But

20:29

back then it was serious. It was like,

20:31

you are getting shot when

20:34

you walk around your corner that no one wanted to be

20:36

on camera. It was like, I'd walk in a club and

20:38

they would all scatter. And so I take a little bit

20:40

of pride now when I'm watching like Housewives and like there's

20:42

all these gay guys on there and I'm like, you're good

20:44

for y'all because I didn't have that.

20:46

There was no, there was a- No

20:49

one was really backing me up on that.

20:51

Exactly, you're right. You were right.

20:55

Okay, I don't actually know how

20:57

it happened. How they

20:59

cast it in a way, but how did you

21:02

become the culture guy? Was

21:05

that, like, did you have a choice in the

21:07

matter? Were you, I mean, it makes, of

21:10

course it makes sense to me, but was that your goal to

21:12

be that figure on the show? No,

21:17

so they were

21:20

casting the show for a year. And

21:23

I came in the last three weeks because

21:25

I was watching Watch What Happens Live with

21:28

Andy Cohen and Carson Kressley, who was the original

21:30

Fab Five, was on there and said

21:33

they were rebooting it. And I

21:35

was like, well, I'm gay and I need to be on this show and

21:37

had, and loved the original, but I was

21:39

like, I don't cook clean. I mean, like,

21:42

I'm fashionable, but I don't have a, you

21:44

know, I'm not a chef, I don't do- Not

21:46

sure what my niche is. Yeah, not

21:48

my show. I worked as a social worker and

21:50

for many years, I'm like, okay, I work in

21:52

mental health. Like, great, like, I don't know how

21:54

this is gonna work, but I begged my agent

21:57

to get me an audition. They said, no, no,

21:59

no. And then this

22:01

woman, a cast name Gretchen said well.

22:03

As a favor or bring him

22:05

and for what category does he

22:07

want and that. I was. I'd.

22:10

Have zagged. Spent. Her decide

22:12

because I don't know I mean I

22:14

i that kids I can cook as it

22:17

might have partnered right out of what are

22:19

given up at like I did severely

22:21

I know ideas and I got base decided

22:23

culture because it was Merrick and so that's

22:25

how they brought me and I whacked out

22:28

there. They were doing a chemistry test so

22:30

they bought those their top fifty. Oh does

22:32

all that a pamphlet. Fifty Five

22:35

Zero. Five Zero shower the

22:37

cameras because they were going to

22:39

miss macaroni and so we spent

22:41

do we said today's miss matching

22:43

for the five essay and ah

22:46

I remember everybody else my category

22:48

were all art curators. They were

22:50

all Broadway spot way stars, composers,

22:52

speakers, Culture was that. Man.

22:55

I and I literally

22:57

walked outside. A god

22:59

among my age and

23:01

was I. So.

23:05

I'm no one here are Madison are out on

23:07

a draw and I don't know what to do

23:09

and he was like what you want to say

23:11

gets I say what you know that's not my

23:13

i'm all like I don't I was fail at

23:16

breaking in Aus exams going to tell them dad.

23:18

Like. I work in mental health and dislikes yeah

23:20

works and assume our things. I literally went into

23:23

the odds descend into their chemistry test in every

23:25

time we would talk about something else like well

23:27

you know as much as like see them to

23:29

a museum I like to I find out like

23:32

were that farmer come from like what resources they

23:34

need what happens and I just kept going on

23:36

the end up in up in the casting in

23:38

be kept getting rid of light are curators everything

23:40

and had the last rate I was I'd. Will.

23:44

Maybe that mental health big have worked in

23:46

every me, be myself, even your solve Yeah,

23:48

they told me later on they were like

23:50

well we decided that this was the fresh

23:52

take we needed for this new generation is

23:55

somebody was going to talk about mental health

23:57

to get to the deeper conversations. it

23:59

is brilliant because

24:01

you were perfect. Yeah and that's what changed.

24:04

So the culture culture title

24:06

just a throw over from the

24:08

original one. Yeah they should

24:10

change it like mental health or you know

24:13

I don't know whatever they want to get it

24:15

to. Honestly watching the show makes me feel

24:17

like all hosts should start off as social

24:19

workers. Just like you

24:22

had deep conversations,

24:25

you have deep conversations with people and

24:28

so much of the show was

24:30

just about unearthing those layers. Yeah.

24:33

Like why people couldn't change

24:35

or why people couldn't adjust their life, why

24:37

they couldn't move forward. Yeah well

24:39

part of why I believe the show has been successful

24:42

is because people

24:44

can't you know like changing your outer

24:46

and changing your home will

24:49

only last as long as

24:51

your mind is there and

24:53

so you can get cute in the morning but the

24:56

minute that like something pisses you off and you feel

24:58

depressed you're not gonna dress up. Yeah. You know people

25:00

sit in their house they that's why we see every

25:02

movie when someone is not in a space where they're

25:05

happy or their self-esteem or emotions are down they don't

25:07

change their clothes they don't do their hair they don't

25:09

their house becomes a mess and so for

25:11

us to be able to work together has

25:13

been such a blessing because you need each

25:15

component for it to stick. Yes. Because

25:18

I feel like when people are stuck in

25:20

those situations because they feel they're not worthy.

25:23

They're not worthy. They're not worthy

25:25

of an exterior that looks nice

25:27

they're depressed. That's it. They don't feel

25:30

like they deserve. Yeah that's

25:32

it. To live a high

25:34

quality life and that is I mean

25:37

I feel like I feel that on

25:39

your show on Karamo. Oh thank you.

25:42

It is an extension of the work that you

25:44

were doing on Queer Eye and I think that

25:46

yeah that certainly holds true. Yeah

25:48

I mean like on Queer Eye people sometimes because

25:51

you know daytime talk and also I'm not in

25:53

a celebrity genre I'm on the you

25:55

know or a political drama I'm in you know

25:57

regular everyday people that they come

25:59

with real. emotions and it's heightened and then I

26:01

have to give bring them down and help them

26:03

to figure through it and give them a resource.

26:06

But it's the same thing on Queer Eye because

26:08

people get our cute five-minute

26:10

packages that have cute music. But

26:12

especially with my category, they don't realize like I

26:15

mean there's a season that I had a

26:17

daughter and father. It was in

26:20

Philadelphia and the daughter was decided

26:22

to leave the house because

26:24

her father just was like so strict

26:26

and a Latino family and he wanted her to be

26:28

in the business and want all these things that she

26:31

should rebuild and ran away and he hadn't seen her.

26:33

And when I brought them back together, the

26:36

part that we cut out was the daughter

26:38

came in and was like, you can't control me.

26:40

I'm my own person and it was and he's

26:42

strong and he's like this is culture and they're

26:44

you know I'm a Latino man and you don't

26:47

talk to your father that way and it was

26:49

like heated. And

26:51

then I got them to a place where it was like here

26:53

we go, we can hear each

26:56

other and then that's when

26:58

we as Queer Eye start recording and

27:01

you see, hi dad I want to okay I

27:03

hear you now I want to talk to you.

27:06

And people don't realize for my scenes I

27:08

always get that friction and so with all

27:10

my talk show you just

27:13

don't get that cut out and put over and

27:15

then pretty music put under. You know

27:17

you get that you get to see the real things

27:19

that happens in all of our lives when your mom

27:21

says something to you and she triggers you or your

27:23

boyfriend or your girlfriend, your husband, your wife. It

27:26

is it is very messy and

27:28

very heated. Yeah

27:31

and then I go back into my office because now I've

27:33

made it that I do have that slushy margarita machine and

27:37

and great flavor. You

27:40

must have two different flavors at all times.

27:42

And I have a cocktail. I

27:44

will cocktail because we shoot six episodes

27:46

a day. You shoot six

27:49

episodes a day? Six. You

27:51

must be emotionally like that's

27:53

a lot of margaritas girl

27:55

come come over. That's a lot of margarita. Come to

27:57

my office come to my office. That's a lot. It

28:00

takes something, it takes a lot out of

28:02

you, I'm sure because you really are. It

28:05

is like, I don't think that, I

28:08

mean, listen, like I've interviewed people,

28:10

this is my, been my entire

28:12

career, but you really, when you

28:14

are dealing with people who are

28:17

not media trained and they don't

28:19

have like a veneer about them,

28:21

they are just like raw nerve

28:24

endings. And you are

28:26

talking to a lot of people at the end

28:28

of their rope and that actually takes a

28:30

tremendous toll on you, I am sure. But

28:33

you do the same thing and one of the things that

28:35

I have I respect about you and I look at you

28:37

as someone I respect and I also take

28:39

from your hosting talent is that when

28:41

it comes to like, even if that's

28:43

your political stuff, like people are at

28:45

their wit's end and they are, they're

28:48

just, it's raw emotion.

28:51

And the way you are able to navigate it

28:53

to give people perspective that calms them and gives

28:55

them clarity is something that I admire, I

28:57

just have to give you your roses because I think you are

28:59

amazing, you know, you are amazing. Well thank you.

29:02

That is why I have a pina colada

29:04

machine in my house that is churning

29:06

24-7. Do

29:08

you know what I mean? Breakfast

29:10

pina colada? Okay, let's get prepared for today. Let's do

29:12

it right. Let's do it right. Put

29:14

these eggs. Hold

29:17

that thought. More with Karamo after one more

29:19

break. What

29:29

if millions of black Americans had been

29:32

compensated for slavery? Join

29:34

me tremendously as I explore the untold

29:36

story of one of the only black

29:38

Americans who ever was. We'll talk to

29:41

his descendants and discuss how reparations forever

29:43

changed their family's trajectory and imagine a

29:45

reality where reparations are paid to the

29:48

rest of black America. Into America presents

29:50

uncounted millions, the power of reparations, a

29:52

black history month series. New

29:55

episodes drop Thursdays. Can't

30:00

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30:21

Check out a free trial of Lemonado Premium

30:23

today in the Apple Podcast app by clicking

30:25

on our podcast logo and then the subscribe

30:27

button. What

30:37

decision did you make to ensure that the

30:39

show would have its own identity? Because

30:49

it is very distinct, very different. Yeah,

30:52

so ironically, I wasn't supposed to take,

30:54

I wasn't taking Maury's spot. What

30:57

happened was they

30:59

announced my show and then he announced he retired

31:01

a day later, or a reverse. They

31:03

were already planned, you know how this works,

31:05

they were already planned for him to announce

31:07

mine and then he decided he was retiring

31:10

because he had done the thing and then

31:12

Press was like, here's

31:14

his replacement. And it was like, it worked

31:16

out because of that, I did take a

31:18

couple of elements that I did respect about

31:20

his show but did in my own way.

31:23

Or one element particularly is that, I

31:26

mean, everyone talks about like you are the father or whatever. But

31:30

because of my own life with a

31:32

paternity issue and finding my child later

31:34

on, I wanted that element. And

31:36

at first I wasn't going to have it on my show because

31:39

of the fact that I was like, I don't want anybody to

31:41

compare me to Maury. And

31:43

then people did it anyway. And I was like, well, no

31:46

need to fight that battle. And

31:48

so I took that element. The only difference is that

31:51

I don't do babies. I do

31:53

adults like myself who

31:56

can understand what it means to have

31:58

results from a paternity But

32:01

I mean, like, again, I also when people

32:03

said that, like, I keep my show different,

32:05

like the difference, main difference between me and

32:08

most people that's in this genre is I

32:11

want resolution. And, you know, I

32:13

want resolution and I want tools. And

32:16

last season one, I gave out more

32:19

more therapy than NBC probably

32:21

wanted to pay for. But I

32:23

was like, I don't care. Like every episode I was like at the

32:25

end of it, I was like, can I give you can I pay

32:27

for therapy? And I was like, yeah,

32:29

that now season two of my show, we've already

32:31

shot two weeks. And I remember

32:33

there was one episode where I didn't offer them therapy and they

32:35

were like, I don't get free therapy therapy. And

32:38

I was like, yeah, well, I'll give you therapy. It's

32:41

good. It's like to find that you don't have a

32:44

good thing. I want

32:46

over to you did good. But yeah,

32:48

sure. Well, they were a session or

32:50

two. That does

32:52

feel like such a difference that you're like, it

32:54

doesn't feel like you're trying to get people to

32:56

throw chairs at each other. In fact, the opposite

32:58

opposite. Yeah, I'm like complete opposite. I'm like, you've got

33:01

to calm down. Like if someone starts standing up and

33:03

they start doing something, I'm like, no, no, no. I'm

33:05

like, it's okay for you to show your emotions and

33:07

be a human being because we all have our moments

33:10

of like, we're frustrated. I've been dealing with them

33:12

for 15 years and I don't feel hurt or

33:14

I don't trust you. But

33:17

you got to get calm because unless you

33:19

want calm, calmness and clarity,

33:21

then we're not going to be able to get through this. Right.

33:25

You're just so great on your show, but

33:27

you're so good at giving. You are good

33:29

at giving advice. You are great at guiding

33:31

people. I think that's people who have walked

33:34

through fire are always like

33:36

really calm. Good.

33:40

At like guiding other people. Do

33:44

you seek other people's advice when you're trying to

33:46

make the big calls? Yeah,

33:48

I do. Do you have a, who do you lean

33:50

on, I guess? Sure.

33:53

So I'm the youngest of four sisters and I

33:55

was obviously my mother and father in their tumultuous

33:58

life that was raised by my mother. Because

34:00

by the time, being the youngest, she finally got

34:02

the courage to leave my father being abusive when

34:05

my sister, my youngest sister was leaving high school.

34:07

So then it was just she and I. And

34:13

I look to them. They are

34:15

my rocks, my, you know,

34:17

I've always said, I don't understand how we

34:19

ever thought God was a woman. I mean,

34:21

a man. I remember I thought

34:23

how we thought that, especially when the only thing we

34:25

know on this world is women

34:28

to be able to reproduce other than trans

34:30

women. Sorry, before, you know, someone, but you

34:32

know, like women to be able to reproduce.

34:34

And I'm like, so the thing that creates

34:37

everything as a man doesn't make sense to

34:39

me. I don't understand that.

34:42

And it's always, it's also what's given me my

34:44

empathy. And what's given me my clarity is when

34:47

you're surrounding a household where people are willing

34:49

to be vulnerable

34:52

while also being strong, be forward

34:55

while also understanding that it's okay to let

34:57

other people leave. Like when you see just

35:00

people who, you know, these women in my

35:02

life that showed me, I just mimic them.

35:04

I mimic them. I really do. And

35:07

anytime I have something, I go

35:09

to them and I say, check me, you

35:11

know, let me know where I'm at. Like, because

35:13

I trust what you have to say. And do they

35:15

check you? They're like, absolutely not. Absolutely

35:18

all the time. Okay.

35:21

It's only been in a shift, like maybe in this

35:23

past two years where now

35:26

they've been calling me oddly, they're like, you're the

35:28

patriarch of the family now. Like I'm the oldest,

35:31

I'm the oldest boy out of all the cousins.

35:33

So they're like, you know, you got to handle

35:35

this now. And I'm like, girl, what's this happened?

35:37

I'm okay with y'all handling it. Like y'all been

35:39

doing a great job. And you know, but, but

35:42

now they're checking me. They're not checking

35:44

me as much, but they love to check me and

35:46

tell me like, okay. And I have

35:48

a sister who is a counselor. She's

35:51

a PhD and she loves to

35:53

critique my advice all the time.

35:55

Oh, really? She

35:57

loves to be like, so you were right.

36:00

But, you know, clinically speaking, you

36:02

could have probably went a little bit further here.

36:04

And I'm like, thank you for educating me. She

36:06

thinks she's reading me, but she also just makes

36:08

me better. That's amazing. One

36:12

of the things that I think you're also

36:14

so incredible at is getting men to be

36:17

so vulnerable. Okay?

36:21

Like, we obviously

36:23

as a country reckon with

36:26

misogyny and sexism and all kinds

36:28

of garbage patriarchy

36:31

all the time. And

36:33

so much of that, I don't know, feels like

36:35

is, is men are just conditioned to like, not

36:38

all men, but you know, a lot of them

36:41

conditioned to like, hold it all in, like, suck

36:43

it in and try to ride

36:46

through every situation on a white stallion and

36:48

save the day. And it just doesn't work

36:51

at all. Not

36:53

wanting to appear emotional is like,

36:56

it's a crisis. Yes. It's

36:58

a crisis. Yes. How

37:01

do you break through to men

37:04

in particular? I mean,

37:07

is it becoming easier? The

37:09

more that you do it, it's

37:11

very tricky. I

37:13

think for me, it's become easier because now

37:16

men know I'm a safe space to do

37:18

it. So we

37:21

have house parties and you can

37:23

always catch a guy in a corner crying with me. I'm

37:26

not even joking. I'm not even joking. Like

37:28

my girlfriend would be like, where's my, where's

37:30

my husband? And they're in a corner somewhere,

37:33

like on my shoulder. And I'm

37:36

like, okay, I'm a boy out of somewhere.

37:38

Sometimes I just don't want to be the hero. Yeah,

37:40

exactly. And I'm like, okay, baby, it's

37:42

okay. But I

37:45

think the steps for men that don't know

37:47

my career and don't know me that I

37:49

interact with is a lot of times the

37:51

first thing I tell them is not to be afraid of the dictionary, Meaning

37:54

like these terms of

37:56

like patriarchy, vulnerability, Have

38:00

a conversation. They're mine. a definition that they

38:02

put in their minds that they feel like

38:04

it's now going to define them and I'm

38:06

I don't be afraid of these definitions like

38:08

let's explore what is actually this is for

38:10

you, you know? And this is for everything

38:12

people get so afraid of definitions of. Then

38:14

they start to make that their battle and

38:16

that's that's the hell they want to die

38:19

on and sites subbing. Afraid of the English

38:21

language? It's okay in our is existed it

38:23

was there before but let's talk about what

38:25

it could mean for you. As a once

38:27

I get them to understand like. Patriarchy.

38:30

And words. Yes, it's

38:32

a word. And yes, you benefited. or

38:34

yes, you've exhibited it. Doesn't.

38:37

Mean that it doesn't mean you can grow

38:39

through. It doesn't mean that you can't be

38:41

better. It's doesn't mean I'm going to defined

38:43

you. Doesn't mean that not gonna allow you

38:45

to be better than that moment that we

38:48

had would you describe to it dies nc

38:50

out the first broken out while go down.

38:52

Ah. Then I

38:54

start to I do sort of a

38:56

reverse psychology of like I'm one of

38:58

expectations that the women have for you

39:00

in your life bed. That

39:03

you don't like or that they uphold

39:05

when it senses patriarchy and it's it's

39:07

it's not them actually. Accusing.

39:10

Are putting it on the women What

39:12

it is is making them to start

39:14

explore that the same way that you're

39:16

saying that. This other sex has

39:18

these things. You have certain things to that you

39:20

feel like a pressure that you have. Obviously

39:22

you're pressures are not as bad but it doesn't

39:25

matter. I know when I compare and contrast to

39:27

what I'm doing is allowing you to say like

39:29

well yes sometimes I don't like to be the

39:31

one that has to like you to said

39:33

you know the that heroes. I don't like that

39:36

it's you know she tells me that I can't

39:38

do this. I can't do that because if I

39:40

do then you know it's a know like a

39:42

lot of mental I became mixed messages. obviously women

39:45

have any friends mad their entire lives see spills

39:47

out. As I will with you. but

39:49

I'm gonna give you a space. To.

39:52

express it because for me i'm not

39:54

going to chastise you for having a

39:56

feeling i'm going to allow you to

39:59

feel safe But once you feel safe

40:01

enough to express it, now it's time for you

40:03

to grow through it and understand why

40:05

you have that feeling, why it's detrimental, and

40:07

how you can be better than that feeling.

40:09

It's okay to have feelings. Well, how

40:12

you can be better, but you gotta be better. You

40:14

gotta be better. You gotta be better. You gotta be

40:16

better. Like, let's explore the choices, you know, to go

40:18

back to what we originally talked about. How do you

40:20

explore the choices you've made, and how

40:22

do you be better than those? And

40:26

yeah, and it's working. It's very, very

40:28

hard to solve a problem

40:30

if you can't articulate it, don't you

40:32

think? Yes. If

40:35

you can't say the problem out

40:37

loud, you can very

40:39

rarely fix it. But

40:41

most men are afraid to, again, afraid because

40:43

they're afraid of the dictionary. They

40:46

don't want to define it. They don't want to say it because

40:48

if they own it, then they're a problem and they don't want

40:50

to. And it's like, you gotta,

40:52

don't be afraid of that dictionary. I

40:54

mean, there's an episode on Queer Eye that from this

40:56

past season, I'm very proud of, we

40:59

worked with a frat. And

41:01

they asked me at the beginning of the episode, like, are you

41:03

going to take one person? Who do you want from the frat?

41:05

And I was like, no, I'm gonna take the whole group.

41:07

Even all of you. Yeah, I've been doing group sessions forever.

41:10

Like I know how to do this. And

41:13

we're sitting with these boys and I was just asking them, like, what

41:16

is it? The first question I asked was, what does it mean to be a

41:18

man? And they were

41:20

like, they were like going into these definitions.

41:23

And I was like, they were all wrong

41:26

because they were afraid of like,

41:29

just the regular definition is that

41:31

it's just your chromosomes. Right. Right.

41:35

And we're not, all these other things that you've added on, none

41:37

of these are what it's supposed to be. It's,

41:39

you're talking about chromosomes right now.

41:41

And I'm, and I'm talking about

41:43

chromosomes and you're talking about feelings

41:45

and expectations. Now let's

41:48

challenge those. And like having these

41:50

nine boys in a circle crying

41:53

because they let go of what it was to be a

41:56

man. You made so

41:58

many spouses. These

42:00

resources lives better. In.

42:02

The mountainous script. The

42:07

hotdogs arousal a lot. Of

42:10

that's a mess and going into a frat

42:12

house something like none on out there like

42:15

which with that which one of us as

42:17

as as use your like. Every.

42:19

Single one of these that. Downstairs to right

42:21

now I'm telling you I it's it's

42:23

as one am proud of. Move Them

42:25

Out on Tv. Seeing these young men

42:28

cry and open up and and experience

42:30

of own ability in a public and

42:32

together Ran know that it's okay to

42:34

talk about it and. I'm

42:37

proud of in a Brown. more of this

42:39

anymore as best. Players you know

42:41

you and at the activism

42:44

to so natural to you.

42:46

And mean to do a lot of work across

42:48

a. Lotta different sizes bit and it's

42:51

more barb the bipartisan than you might

42:53

expect. Yeah for you. Met with parents

42:55

Karen Pence. Yeah. It

42:57

was her arm, her Teeth of Staff Author.

43:00

Who. Makes who decides what makes you able to. I

43:02

think I know what makes. You able to reach

43:04

across the aisle at that? You're just. Com.

43:08

You. See that, go. See the goal of the

43:10

The and guys got? yeah I see the angle

43:12

and plus in I'd really be honest again about

43:14

a choice. You know when you're black, gay, immigrant

43:17

parents like a person or is in America my

43:19

pants up in this country I had no choice

43:21

but to reach across because otherwise the we're going

43:23

to reach across the me right? and I'm. A

43:26

A. That's literally what it was. It was like

43:28

well I know that if I sit here and

43:30

and I am I hill. I'm

43:32

not going to benefit me and it's definitely going to

43:34

benefit for the other people who don't have a acts

43:37

as a purpose I have so I might have low.

43:39

But. Any by am I gonna lie, you do

43:41

things but like and we can find some common

43:44

ground. Like why not? You know and it's come

43:46

back to bite me in my ass a couple

43:48

times. You know, Like that people have been like

43:50

even. Listen.

43:54

There's no without. You know,

43:56

without risk. There's no rewards and

43:59

he can't. Listen to people, there's

44:01

a lot of armchair critics, a

44:04

lot of armchair quarterback at all

44:06

times. Exactly. And I understand

44:08

it, I get it. People, we're in a

44:10

tense moment where it's like, well, are you

44:13

about to flop? Are you about to start

44:16

doing some stuff that is like, are you about to put on

44:18

a hat that we're all like, hold

44:20

on, we've seen it, where you're like, hold on. I've

44:24

stopped wearing all of my red baseball caps. I

44:26

love a baseball cap, and I've stopped wearing all

44:29

of the red ones because I'm like, I don't

44:31

want anybody from the back to be like, what

44:33

does it say on the front? Oh, you cannot

44:35

wear red baseball caps. You just can't for a

44:37

long time. Done, it's gone. I'm

44:41

like, they're gone, they're in the back, collecting dust now.

44:43

But I

44:46

do it because I know that if I don't

44:48

put myself in

44:51

that position, and I believe that part of what I'm

44:53

on this earth to do is

44:55

to, I can handle it. I

44:58

can handle it. I've gotten the tools, I've gotten the

45:00

skills. I can handle it.

45:02

And I don't put anything on myself that I can't handle. So

45:04

if I can handle it, and

45:07

it's gonna help somebody else be a little bit better, thank

45:10

God, let's just keep walking through this fire

45:13

because why not? Damn

45:15

it, that was great. This

45:19

is, I have enjoyed talking, I

45:21

always enjoyed talking to you, but this

45:23

was, this is chef's

45:25

kiss. I enjoy

45:27

you thoroughly. I think you make the

45:29

world is a better place because you

45:32

are in a, and you're just a

45:34

calming, you're just an incredible

45:36

person. Thanks. What

45:39

a damn pleasure. I gotta tell you, I

45:41

feel the same way about you. And this

45:43

is not fake talk like I meant it

45:45

earlier when I said I watch you and

45:47

I'm just so amazed by what you do

45:49

as a host, as

45:52

someone who shifts culture. You

45:54

are someone I respect and revere and that's what

45:56

I'm gonna look up to. And so. The

45:58

feeling is... More than me. So

46:01

on your resume or two

46:03

summers. That

46:13

was cardinal as I had no choice

46:16

that with up one thing he really

46:18

made me want to fly seats. So

46:20

I had no. Could always says.

46:23

First Slices. well it all goes. That's

46:25

the nineteen fifties and is us when

46:28

the soda machine at a very clean

46:30

staff working and it's owner put all

46:32

the coax in the freezer and and

46:34

salt of s out since it was

46:37

that. It had obviously as as

46:39

a less s case closed and

46:41

goodness this more choice or. It's

46:44

a slender, not a premium. Subscribers

46:46

get exclusive access to bonus content

46:48

with a funny out take for

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my recent interview with Eric Andre.

46:52

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47:13

of eliminated medium putting him

47:15

in new. Hampshire

47:18

and look this whole. Thing forever.

47:20

Businesses as President of Weekly Clinton

47:22

per quarter of a kramer often a

47:24

little walk the line and sinker producers

47:27

are almost impossible to listen and for

47:29

helping. Me

47:32

at will soon be and Twitter Instagram.

47:34

Political stories president of her both of

47:36

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