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use code choice words.

1:38

Lemonado. There

1:43

are some people who can pack all

1:45

their belongings into a little knapsack and

1:47

just hit the road, not

1:50

knowing where they're going. They can live

1:52

off the grid for months at a

1:54

time, sleep under the stars, go from

1:56

country to country, washing their

1:59

socks, and in

2:01

a hotel coffee pot,

2:03

which I've heard is a thing, or

2:07

a stream. I

2:09

truly, I admire so much

2:11

about people like that, but

2:14

it's just not me. I need

2:16

a little corner that is mine. Sometimes

2:19

I'm surprised that people expect me to be

2:21

more of a free spirit, as if everyone

2:23

who lives in the public eye is just

2:25

like ready for anything, up

2:27

for whatever, any time of the day

2:29

or night. But I

2:32

have always been this way. I am a

2:34

creature of habit. I have known about

2:37

myself for a long time that I

2:39

need roots. I need

2:41

to be tethered to something. ["The

2:46

The The The

2:49

The The The

2:52

The The The The

2:56

The The The The

3:28

former pizza restaurant possibly live in

3:30

should everything at some point come

3:33

crashing down because sometimes

3:36

it does. So

3:39

take a listen and make good choices.

3:48

I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm a

3:51

really huge fan of yours. Wow. Huge.

3:54

Wow. I am such a fan

3:56

of yours that that is wild to hear. The fact

3:58

that you know who I am is crazy to me.

4:00

I had butterflies. and I had to eat a roll

4:02

eggs. And that's the God's honest truth. I had a

4:04

roll eggs before I don't have with anxiety or just

4:06

it does. Even

4:08

placebo. It's simplicity. It's like a little

4:11

piece of chalk that I eat that

4:13

gets settled. It's like beta blockers except

4:15

for your body. I think so.

4:17

I think it just it's just like, why are

4:19

we dealing with chalk right now? And all of

4:21

the focus goes to what I've put inside. Yeah,

4:24

no, I'm running in in the body.

4:26

Yeah. Well, I can't believe I'm talking to you.

4:29

I feel like this is

4:31

such an honor and I'm so flattering. And

4:33

I really, you are

4:35

incredible. And I watched

4:38

you all the time and like really looked forward

4:40

to you and thought, wow,

4:42

women can be funny and smart at the

4:44

same time. You know, I

4:46

think you Okay, well, we will I'm gonna

4:48

actually ask you questions. Like I actually have

4:51

an agenda here today, but I want

4:53

to say that your cookbooks are influential

4:55

in my life. People in my family,

4:57

even like my stepmom, all these people

5:00

that I know, everybody makes your shortbread

5:02

cookies for one thing. Because that's just

5:04

like, that is a family activity, just

5:06

a classic family activity. And just it's

5:08

just known, you're known to everyone in

5:10

my family. So just hold

5:12

that in your heart. That's very wholesome.

5:14

It's like a very beautiful cookbook club.

5:16

I love cookbooks. I don't, I'm like

5:19

a cookbook addict, actually. That's how I,

5:22

apart from taking a role, if I'm feeling nervous,

5:25

I like to do in the same way. Yeah, they

5:27

suit me in the exact same way. Okay. So

5:31

I do you have so many things going

5:33

on that we need to talk about before

5:35

we talk about all the stuff that you're

5:37

doing, which I'm so excited about. And I

5:39

love this show.

5:41

As a launch point, we talk about

5:43

choice and the choices that you've made

5:45

in your life, big or small, that

5:47

kind of got you where

5:49

you are, or made

5:51

a big change or a little change that kind of like

5:55

became a big change. But

5:57

that's sort of the idea of making

5:59

choices is really different. for everyone. Are

6:01

you very good at it? Are you

6:03

decisive? I'm extremely decisive. Are you? Yeah,

6:05

but I sit on things for a

6:07

minute before I decide. But

6:09

I'm the kind of person that will be at a

6:11

party, having a pretty good time, and then

6:14

be like, I have to go right

6:16

now. And it's not like my

6:18

mind changed. It's that I arrived to the party. I was like, I'm

6:20

probably not going to stay long, but while I'm here, I'm going to

6:22

have a great time. Okay. When I'm ready to

6:24

go, I'm ready to go. It's kind of that with anything where

6:27

it's like, I know

6:29

before the thing happens, I'm like, I'm ready.

6:32

Let's go. I don't waffle too much. Are

6:35

you the type of person who's like, I think that I'm going to wake

6:37

up at 6 15 tomorrow, and

6:39

your brain just goes, is 6 15? Absolutely

6:42

not. No, I mean, I wake up at 6

6:45

15 often because I sleep poorly. Okay.

6:47

And my body will wake

6:49

me up at like anywhere from 3 to 6 am

6:52

and I'll stay awake and do

6:54

crosswords. But it's not by choice. Not

6:57

by choice. No. Okay. But you just

6:59

when you're in something, you're like, it is over

7:02

now. And now I leave. Yeah, it is like

7:04

a heavy and you know, I think about it

7:06

a lot in terms of like intuition versus information.

7:10

And do I make choices based on information

7:12

or intuition? I don't know. If I had

7:14

to guess, I'd say more intuition, which depending

7:17

on how like scientifically minded

7:19

you are could be bullshit. But

7:22

I do feel like I'm

7:24

a more feelings based decision maker.

7:27

Right. And when something is in terms

7:29

of like career choices is something when

7:31

you have all the information about something,

7:33

and there's always some piece of it

7:35

that's totally unknowable, the

7:38

end result, of course, is unknowable. Do

7:40

you toss and turn for weeks and weeks? Or are you

7:42

like, this is what I want

7:44

to do. This is what is guiding me is

7:48

how much I like this thing. I

7:50

feel like before, like the

7:52

earlier in my career, my choices were more like

7:55

big swings and not like I would leave a job,

7:57

I would move to a city I would like. do

8:00

these really big, more

8:03

definitive choices and things

8:06

that would have a big ripple

8:08

effect. Versus now, things happen a

8:10

lot more gradually. They reveal

8:13

themselves. I'm like, oh, this started as this, but

8:15

it's now this. I like

8:18

that. Or whoa, we got a course correct.

8:20

We strayed

8:22

too far from the path. So I think it's

8:24

less, I'm going to do this

8:26

now and more, see

8:29

how things unfold, given that there's so much up in

8:31

the air. Yeah, I mean, and there's certain

8:33

things that are boring decisions you have to make. It's like, okay,

8:35

well, you have to plan this

8:37

thing ahead. You have to do this deadline. You have to

8:40

write a book. You have to, things that are

8:42

not so vibe based.

8:44

It can't be all vibes

8:46

all the time, unfortunately. It can't be

8:49

just vibes. Do you do like it? Are you a person who

8:51

likes a deadline? I am because

8:53

otherwise I'll never do it. Me too.

8:56

I actually need it. Even

8:58

if it feels arbitrary, to

9:00

just put some structure on the

9:02

process. Yeah. I mean, you seem, I've always

9:04

taken you for a creative

9:07

person. And I think that people assume

9:09

that a creative person doesn't like boundaries

9:11

or guidelines or guardrails, but I

9:13

think actually we really need it and sort

9:16

of crave it because it does give us

9:19

like safe space to move around in rather

9:21

than just like splat everywhere.

9:23

And then like, at

9:25

least for me, I'm just like, Oh, this is a mess. This is

9:28

nothing is organized. No one knows where

9:30

anything is like, cause I'm just like,

9:32

yeah, exactly. So I do like an

9:34

assignment. I love a deadline. I love

9:37

structure. I love parameters. When

9:39

I was younger, like in my

9:41

early twenties, I got a loft. I got,

9:44

I moved in with a bunch of friends into a loft

9:47

and I actually lived in there for six months and I

9:49

was like, I can't have to get out of here. There's

9:51

too much head space. Yeah. Okay.

9:54

There was just like too much room. I needed

9:57

the parameters of a normal. Yeah. It's

9:59

funny because I just moved out of

10:01

a loft and into a place that

10:03

has like literally two days ago that

10:05

has like actual rooms. And

10:07

I feel already like so much more grounded and

10:09

so much more like, okay, this is my office.

10:11

I go and work. Instead of just like, this

10:13

is the room where you do everything, you know,

10:15

like you cook here, you eat here, you work

10:17

here, you watch TV here, you hang out here,

10:20

but it's all the same room. Yes.

10:22

Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah,

10:24

which like in theory is really nice. You know, like all the

10:26

light and space, but like, it's not

10:28

good, especially if you live with another person,

10:31

because you're always there, wherever you go, there

10:33

they are. Yeah, you're just rattling around with

10:35

somebody in a big old tall room where

10:37

you can't even be so tall. You can't

10:39

even beautiful, so beautiful and in theory. And

10:43

in reality, you're just like, I can't,

10:45

I'm not Spider-Man. We need, I'm

10:48

not a trapeze artist. No, I feel

10:50

flailing is the word that comes to

10:52

mind, unfortunately. So when you

10:54

look back, when you look back at

10:56

the entirety of your life thus far,

10:58

is there the choice that you made

11:00

that you think really stands

11:02

out for you as something that kind of changed

11:05

the trajectory or was fulfilling in a way

11:07

that you weren't expecting? Or just, is there

11:09

a big choice that you made that really

11:11

stands out to you? Yeah, I

11:14

mean, you know, I thought about this question and

11:16

I was thinking about, especially earlier

11:18

in my life, how it felt

11:20

like every choice that I made was like, really

11:23

set me on the path to where I

11:25

am now for a multitude of reasons. But

11:28

I would say like, making the decision to

11:30

leave college and start working in restaurants when I

11:32

was 19, that was sort of the first decision.

11:34

The first choice that I made, not

11:37

just because of my age, but like, I

11:40

mean, I guess partly because of my age, I

11:42

was 19. But like, really felt like this was

11:44

something that I'm deciding for myself. This is something

11:46

that nobody else is weighing in on. This

11:48

is something that like, this choice

11:50

will affect me and my life for the rest of

11:52

my life. And I was so

11:54

sure that it was the right choice. I

11:56

was like, never was I scared or like,

11:58

what if this doesn't work? I

12:00

was like, I'm going to do this and this is what I'm

12:02

doing. And I

12:05

sort of kind of, I kind of like went

12:07

forth with that energy for

12:10

every major decision after that, where it was

12:12

like, I'm moving to San Francisco. I'm moving

12:14

to New York. I'm quitting this job. I'm doing

12:16

this thing. Where it was like, everyone was like,

12:18

what? Like it didn't, I never took

12:20

like a, what I would consider like an obvious path.

12:24

And I remember my dad once, and

12:27

this was like after I had been living

12:29

in New York for a few years and I like just left

12:31

a job to take another job. And it was

12:33

like a really good job that I took for kind of like

12:35

an unknowable job. And he was like,

12:37

you know, you always make the right choice, even

12:39

if I can't see it at the time. So

12:42

I guess congratulations. I was like sort of a

12:44

compliment, but I mean, it was, it was sort

12:46

of like the acknowledgement that like, I

12:49

obviously am like seeing something, whether, you know, whether

12:51

or not every choice feels

12:53

like the right thing at the start. But yeah,

12:55

I think that for me, the biggest and most

12:58

important was like that first choice. So

13:00

consequential. Did you have people, did the people

13:02

in your life resist that?

13:04

Or was it so confusing to

13:06

them or did they kind of see it coming?

13:08

I think it was more confusing. I mean, my

13:11

parents, I think always knew that I

13:13

was kind of non-traditional

13:15

in that, I didn't even want to go to college in the

13:17

first place. And then when my, all my friends were going away,

13:19

I was like, no, I do want to go to college and

13:22

kind of did my own thing when

13:25

given the opportunity. And so I don't

13:27

think that they were shocked, but I do think they were like, is

13:30

my daughter's life going to be ruined by

13:32

this choice? That like, she seems really adamant

13:34

on making. How much power do we have

13:36

in like her making these choices? And I

13:39

think that, you know, I think most parents

13:41

feel that way as

13:43

they watch their kids get older, no matter what age they

13:45

are. But, you know, being like,

13:48

is this, how much control do I have

13:50

over this person who's like clearly made up their mind? Right.

13:52

Who's a legal adult? Exactly. Yeah.

13:57

Did you, when you started working in the

14:00

room, restaurant where you're like, great, this

14:02

is what I this is actually what exactly where

14:04

I want to be. Yeah. And I and like the first

14:06

few months in the restaurant, I mean, I cried every day.

14:08

I was like, I've ruined my life.

14:10

This was terrible. I'm, you

14:13

know, but I never thought I made the wrong choice. I

14:16

was never like, Oh, I should have stayed in school. I

14:18

should I should have not given this a shot. I was

14:20

just like frustrated that I wasn't good yet. Okay,

14:23

because like, it's like, it's like a someone who's like

14:25

trying to do something physical that they really aspire to.

14:27

And they're like, I'm just I don't have the skill

14:29

yet. And like, that's kind of what

14:32

it was like, I knew I wanted to learn how

14:34

to cook and do it well and an inspired to it

14:36

so much. But like, I was burning things, I was

14:38

dropping things might, I didn't want to use a knife. I

14:40

didn't know like, the physicality of being in a professional

14:42

kitchen, because that is something that you have to learn. Right,

14:45

right. And the people you were working with in

14:47

the restaurant where they like we see you, and

14:50

we're gonna show we're gonna show you

14:52

we believe them. Yeah, my boss, my like immediate

14:54

boss and mentor Ron, he was like, well, you

14:56

want to be here. And you really care. And

14:59

that's like half the battle. That's more than half

15:01

the battle. Like you can teach someone how to

15:03

do something. But you can't teach somebody

15:05

to like care and teach somebody

15:07

to be enthusiastic. And like,

15:09

I feel that way about like, when I think

15:11

about hiring people or whatever, like moving forward and

15:14

in job related stuff, or yeah,

15:16

I don't I mean, you can teach anyone

15:18

most things. And if the skill isn't there,

15:20

I'm more I'm more willing to overlook that

15:22

than be like, Oh, but you your personality

15:24

gets it like, we see

15:26

each other. Yeah, right, right. Like you

15:28

want to you want to imagine that

15:31

you're bringing people into a

15:33

workplace who want to leave the workplace better

15:35

than when they arrived. Like you're always thinking

15:37

about growth. Yeah, or just also

15:40

understanding that like, no one's good at everything

15:42

when they start doing it. And

15:44

it just like takes time and everyone has to

15:46

start somewhere. And I started like a very high

15:48

level kitchen. Yeah, that I felt very lucky that

15:50

they didn't just tell me to leave because they,

15:53

by all accounts, like probably should have because I didn't know what

15:55

I was doing. But it was

15:57

a lot of like really patient people and I like just

16:00

felt really lucky to be there and kind of like tried to

16:02

learn as much as I could from the people around me and

16:05

Do a good job. Do you remember the first thing

16:07

that you made there

16:09

that you really thought?

16:12

Oh, I I've connected with okay. I did this I

16:15

did you know I wish I did but I it's

16:17

funny because I have like my recipe book from that

16:19

time and it is So sweet

16:21

and like pure, you know, it's like

16:23

just full of enthusiasm for cooking and

16:25

baking and life but

16:28

I mean like I think there's like a few recipes in

16:30

the beginning that I probably were like the first things that

16:33

I made like Cookie dough and ice cream

16:35

base and like a lemon curd and like, you know kind

16:37

of based more basic bakery

16:40

style dessert things but

16:43

yeah, the first time that you like when

16:45

you're cooking and someone says like For

16:48

example like roast until blah blah blah

16:51

and you're like, why do my carrots always turn out

16:53

like wet? Even though like I'm roasting

16:55

them to the time that they say Right

16:57

and you're like, oh you just got a roast them

16:59

longer and you'll know you'll know when you know When

17:02

a carrot is like wonderfully roasted and then you

17:04

do it for the first time and you're like, oh, that's a

17:06

well roasted carrot or whatever it can be something

17:08

simple but like I think so much about

17:10

cooking and baking is like doing it for the first

17:12

time and Having success with it and being like,

17:14

oh, that's what I was trying

17:16

to achieve this whole time Like

17:18

making caramelized onions for the first time

17:21

very well. Totally. Yeah You're like wait,

17:23

I followed the instructions and they're still

17:25

white and wet. Yeah, so you mean

17:27

like I have to go Off

17:30

for this page. Yeah go further

17:33

Yeah, and that's like when

17:35

like, you know intuition and like taking into account like

17:37

very variability in the kitchen, but like That's

17:39

when you also start to like listen to yourself. You're like,

17:42

oh cooking is not just about following instructions It's about listening

17:44

to yourself and being like I know and this is ready

17:46

or when it's not ready Which is difficult

17:48

to do when you write books, but yeah,

17:50

very difficult It's very it must be very difficult when

17:52

you write books to kind of like figure I

17:55

can't imagine the technical writing It's actually hard

17:57

for me as a cookbook lover

18:00

to imagine the technical writing

18:03

aspect of, like, the

18:05

recipe itself. Yeah, I mean,

18:07

you wanna so badly, like, talk to the person

18:09

cooking, like, speak directly to you and be like,

18:11

try to imagine you in the

18:13

kitchen and you're like, well, she says this, but I only

18:16

have this, I wonder if that's okay. Like, me

18:18

anticipating that need and, like, writing that into the

18:21

recipe, but, like, so much

18:23

about writing a recipe is just, like, committing to, like, the

18:25

name and the flavor profile and writing it down. But

18:27

some of it's arbitrary. It's like, you could use a

18:30

shallot, you could use an onion, you could use a

18:32

fennel bulb, you could use mushrooms, who cares? But you

18:34

can't write a recipe that's like, do whatever, like, necessarily.

18:36

Like, some people really want the structure and the parameters.

18:39

Right. So

18:41

the technical aspect to that end is like, yeah,

18:43

there's a million ways to roast a chicken. I

18:46

just, this is a recipe this way. You know,

18:48

but it's not definitive. There's

18:51

more choice words in just a moment. If

18:59

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19:01

if you are really like me, you

19:04

might have agonized a decent amount of time about

19:06

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19:10

Maybe you feed them kibble recommended by a vet

19:13

or a fresh food diet. But did you know

19:15

that these are often low in protein, high in

19:17

carbs and may cause weight, mobility, dental

19:20

and skin conditions? That

19:22

is where Maeve comes in. Your

19:24

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19:26

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19:29

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19:32

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19:34

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19:36

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19:43

you guys know me as a cat lover. I

19:45

am, but I often take care of

19:48

my dad's new dog, who is a

19:50

puppy. And I bought my dad a

19:52

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19:55

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21:05

you were growing up, did you love food?

21:07

Like, was this, is this like, you

21:10

know, like when we all watch videos of Beyonce

21:13

singing at the age of two. And

21:15

we're like, oh, well, she was destined. Well, of

21:17

course she's. Yeah, I don't think I was destined

21:19

in that way, but I do. I

21:22

like I know people that like cook for a living

21:24

and there's like pictures of them in a little chef

21:26

hat at like eight. And I'm like, no, that wasn't

21:28

really my vibe. I think that I associated

21:31

food and cooking with like being happy

21:33

and like some of my best memories

21:36

as a kid had to do with

21:38

cooking. And I think that like as

21:40

a person who had a pretty complicated relationship with her

21:42

mom, she liked

21:44

to entertain a lot. And she

21:47

was always in her best mood when she

21:49

was cooking and entertaining and having people over

21:51

and all that stuff. So I like made

21:53

this very early association with like cooking

21:56

makes people like you cooking means you're

21:58

in a good mood, cooking, having people

22:00

over as. like happy. That is so

22:02

cool. It's so cool to me that you're

22:04

saying that because I mean,

22:06

because I love your cookbooks so

22:09

much and they really express that

22:12

they are so much about community

22:14

of people coming together. The

22:17

photography is beautiful. It's very,

22:19

it's very communal, very intentionally,

22:21

like about entertaining, like people

22:23

are coming over. Yeah, it's

22:25

pretty casual, but also beautiful.

22:27

Yeah. And like you can, it

22:30

can just be a source of joy, where so many people

22:32

phrase it in the like, this stresses me out and I

22:34

hate it. And then sometimes I'm like, well,

22:36

then don't do it. But yeah, I don't have to, I

22:38

don't have to do it. You can stop. So,

22:41

you know, what is also okay, so

22:43

you're, you're cooking, you're creating your writing

22:45

books, but you also

22:48

are educating, you're

22:50

also talking to

22:52

people, you're making videos, you're coaching

22:54

people, you're bringing people along, you're

22:56

developing a personality that

22:58

is interacting with an audience at the

23:00

same time that you're cooking and

23:03

developing rest. What was the I guess,

23:05

what was the impetus to add

23:08

that into your world? I

23:11

think that when I decide like part of what

23:13

I enjoyed about working in restaurants was learning. Yeah.

23:15

And I worked in restaurants for six or seven years.

23:18

And I don't believe people are ever through learning. I'm

23:20

I still learn how to do stuff all the time.

23:22

But right, I did feel like I sort of plateaued

23:24

in the restaurant space. And

23:26

it was like

23:28

no longer fulfilling to me to like not interact with

23:31

people in a way that like, I liked

23:33

teaching people in the kitchen, like within that.

23:35

And so when new people would come into

23:37

work there, I would train them. And I

23:39

really liked that part. But I

23:42

think it's because that's how I responded. And that's how I learned

23:44

how to cook I was really inquisitive.

23:47

Someone would tell me like, this is how you do this.

23:49

And I'd be like, why? Like,

23:51

I, I needed to know the how and the

23:53

why in order to fully appreciate it and do

23:56

it. But also if I understood that, then I

23:58

could understand other things. I never I

24:00

never liked just being told what to do. I

24:02

did need to sort of hear the reasoning behind

24:04

it, and I wanted, and craved, like more information,

24:06

which I think made me a better cook from

24:08

an early age. And I realized

24:11

that I liked that

24:13

as a recipient, and I don't think it was

24:16

like a conscious choice to be like, okay,

24:18

now I'm a teacher, and now I'm no longer the

24:20

student, I'm a teacher. But I just

24:22

found that like, I'm also

24:24

very verbose, and I think that like, if

24:27

you're gonna call me and say, how do I roast a

24:29

whole fish? I'm going to tell you

24:31

in the way that I would

24:33

want someone to tell me, and

24:35

that I'm gonna say, this is how you're gonna ask for

24:37

it, and here's why. Here's why you don't ask for the

24:39

other one. Here's what you're gonna do. And

24:42

if it doesn't release from the skillet, that means

24:44

X, Y, and Z, so keep cooking it. So

24:47

I think, yeah, like I really enjoy talking

24:49

to people the way that I would want to be talked to, you

24:51

know, that's like a general rule of how to live. But I

24:54

think, especially with regards to remembering how

24:56

I responded to being taught, and the

24:58

things that really stuck with me, and

25:00

how to like really communicate with people

25:02

in a way that feels

25:04

personal, that you are sort of in

25:07

effect, both entertaining and teaching at the same time. Which

25:09

I feel like, I mean, not to be

25:11

like, but you. But like, that was something that

25:13

I always really enjoyed about everything that you did,

25:16

which was, you know, you're sort

25:18

of watching for the information and the news, but

25:20

you're also being entertained. And it's so rare that

25:22

a person can do both so well, so. Oh,

25:24

thank you. Thank you for your time. It's

25:27

like fun to, I agree with you. I think it's

25:29

really fun to be very engaged with something, to really

25:31

love something so much that you just have to kind

25:33

of talk about it. Or you're

25:35

so interested in something. And then you've

25:37

created, you've built this whole world of

25:41

your career where you're just showing

25:44

people how to do things. It's so, it's

25:46

relaxing to me. I love watching

25:49

people cook. It's like one of my favorite

25:51

things. Find it like a meditation. And

25:54

it's a very learning. Are there like,

25:56

aha kind of moments in

25:58

your own cooking when you- you were learning at that

26:00

young age where you were like, oh, oh

26:03

my God, like something really connected

26:05

for you, like emulsifying a salad

26:07

or like something so simple, like

26:09

just. So I have a

26:11

recipe coming out in the summer. I don't know when this

26:13

is airing, but maybe it'll be around the same time. But

26:17

for like this eggplant pasta, right? And so

26:19

I feel like I

26:21

don't like doing eggplant on the stovetop because you need a

26:23

lot more oil than if you just roast it with olive

26:25

oil. Eggplant will like

26:28

needs a lot of oil to roast or to get color

26:31

and then you can sort of eat it as is like,

26:33

and then you're like, this is

26:35

good, but not as delicious or like the texture is weird

26:37

or, or I don't know, like something has always been off

26:39

for me, but I made a

26:41

pasta with it the other day and I added

26:43

so much pasta water back into the pasta

26:46

dish. And it's almost like if you think

26:48

about eggplant as a sponge that you're dehydrating

26:50

in the oven and then rehydrating with water,

26:53

the texture became so deliciously creamy, almost

26:55

like custardy, like as if I had

26:57

added eggs or something, which I've experienced

27:00

also when you like roast whole eggplant,

27:02

like the interior, like Baba ganoushi style

27:04

becomes like custardy, like

27:06

it's like steamed textured. And

27:09

I was like, Oh, if you roast the eggplant,

27:11

you concentrate the flavors, but then you add in

27:13

pasta water, like make this sauce

27:15

and somehow you get this like deeply

27:18

roasted flavor, but like really

27:20

delicious, saucy, fluffy texture of eggplant. And I was

27:22

like, wow, I can't believe I've never done this

27:24

before. That sounds delicious.

27:26

It's really good. Yeah. It's like

27:28

spicy. There's like some chili

27:31

paste in it and some like a very small

27:33

amount of tomatoes. I can't wait. I'll

27:35

send it to you. I'll give you a preview.

27:37

100% gonna make that. Okay. I like that. There's

27:40

some, man, pasta water

27:42

is ridiculously magical. That's silly.

27:45

I think most people that have

27:47

bad at home pasta experiences, but

27:50

think restaurant pasta is so good. It's because

27:52

of the pasta water. Right. Mm. Yep. I

27:54

agree. Do you, how was the shift for

27:56

you? What did that shift feel

27:58

like when you went from. I

28:00

like I work in restaurants and I work

28:02

in the food world and I work in

28:04

the food industry to suddenly not suddenly but

28:06

like To kind of open

28:08

your eyes one day and go millions of

28:10

people are making my recipes. I Don't

28:14

know. I was just kind of like whoa, like that's

28:16

right cool But it was also a different time like

28:18

the first time that had happened. It was like Instagram

28:21

was it was a thing but it wasn't what it is now Right.

28:24

There was no tick-tock. I wasn't on YouTube

28:26

like no one really knew who I was

28:29

Like it just was kind of like right

28:31

before Things blew up with

28:33

like people and food and like people started to pay attention Mm-hmm.

28:37

So it was sort of like This

28:40

magical thing, but it didn't necessarily feel like it

28:42

was happening to me It felt like it was

28:44

happening to the to the food, you know, okay,

28:46

like to the to the children Like

28:49

I had made these things and they're good

28:51

and people like them Right.

28:53

I didn't necessarily internalize it as like me.

28:55

I'm good. I internalized it as like yes

28:57

These cookies are so good, right and now

28:59

you know it too and like

29:02

it wasn't so much about me It

29:05

was right. It became about me later Okay,

29:08

I would say like the more popular the recipes

29:10

became then people are like well who's writing these

29:12

recipes and then it was me You know, like

29:14

it became right more quote personality focused I think

29:16

but at first it

29:18

definitely felt more like The

29:21

food was like the thing that was

29:23

honest a cent Yeah,

29:25

goodbye cookie was that do you remember

29:27

the first recipe that you wrote that

29:29

became like a huge sensation

29:32

like a big viral Sensation. Yeah, it

29:34

was the chocolate chunk shortbread cookies from

29:36

dining in Yeah, and

29:38

that's cool because that book it was my first book again

29:41

Like no one really knew who I was it wasn't like

29:44

I like a hundred thousand Instagram father if that like I don't

29:46

even think I had that many it was

29:48

just kind of like this thing that happened I remember I

29:50

was in on vacation with my best friend in Mexico at

29:53

the time Yeah, and this was like

29:55

in February of 2018 and I

29:59

looked I just watched my phone and all of a sudden

30:01

all these people started following me and people were commenting and

30:03

they were all talking about the cookie and someone reached out

30:06

to me from a magazine and was like, we want to

30:08

talk about these cookies. And I was like, what is happening?

30:11

Because it just hadn't

30:13

happened before. To anyone, I didn't have a frame

30:15

of reference. It wasn't something

30:17

that I aspired to. Do

30:19

you still make the cookies or are you Van Halen

30:21

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30:24

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30:27

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33:46

Do you, I want to talk to you about

33:48

making the show that you wish

33:51

to see in the world for

33:53

yourself. So, because I think many

33:55

of us have learned that the audience, really the only

33:57

audience you can guarantee

34:00

tea is yourself, really.

34:03

So what has it been

34:05

like? I guess what has it been

34:07

like for you making your home video

34:09

series? Okay, so I've sold two TV

34:11

shows in my short sweet life. None

34:13

of them have been made. So like,

34:15

and they're both great feeling. Yeah, it's

34:17

just great. Yeah, I've done like one

34:19

pre almost made one sold never made

34:22

one sold made never aired. So I

34:24

get closer every time. But

34:26

I sort of like used to think that if

34:28

I was really good at my job, and

34:31

I believed in myself, and I liked what I made that somebody

34:33

out there would see me and be like, Come

34:35

with me kid, like we're gonna give you all the things

34:37

that you want and ask for like, here's a TV show.

34:39

And here's a this and here's a that. Because you're good

34:41

and you deserve it, you know, right? And

34:44

that's just simply not the case now. And

34:46

so instead of feeling like down about it

34:48

or bad about it or bad about myself,

34:50

or being like, Oh, is it not good

34:52

enough? Like this gets made, how

34:54

come my stuff doesn't get made? Like, right? That

34:56

doesn't matter. And now I'm sort

34:58

of like, well, we live

35:00

in a blessed time where anyone can kind of make anything

35:02

they want and put it out there and hope that people

35:04

respond to it. And that's about

35:07

as much control as you can have. And

35:09

so now with home movies, I'm sort

35:12

of like, let's just

35:14

make a version of if

35:17

I were like, yeah, I'm gonna do like a

35:19

pretty straightforward cooking show. And it's gonna be like

35:21

really high quality. And it

35:23

could be on TV if it wanted to be, you know, like,

35:25

what does that look like? And it's me and

35:27

like a pretty small group of people who are all really good

35:29

at their jobs. And we're all like, cool,

35:32

like, let's do like, we don't have anyone telling us what to

35:34

do or how to do it or whatever.

35:36

So we really are being

35:38

like, okay, with a very small budget,

35:41

relying on like, you know, sporadic

35:44

advertising, we are trying

35:46

to stretch our, our legs

35:49

and be like, what would that look like if

35:51

we were to make like, a

35:53

TV show? Because for me in food

35:55

and in food content, quote unquote, I think

35:57

that there's so much like people are TikTok,

36:00

I'm like, I'm not because I'm almost 40. And I

36:02

just don't see that for me. I also don't think

36:04

I'd be good at it. And I

36:06

think it is a separate skill set that I

36:08

do not possess. But what I do possess is

36:10

this sort of more like old school, maybe outdated,

36:13

like definitely not like cutting edge, pretty

36:15

basic, like this person teaches you how to

36:17

cook something. And I'm like,

36:19

can't that be enough? It

36:21

can. I think it can. 100%

36:25

it can be. I

36:27

think it's very it's actually so helpful. It's

36:30

actually really healthy to go. I'm not. TikTok

36:33

is like a different animal. And

36:35

as you can appreciate it, you can love it.

36:38

It doesn't mean that you can execute on it

36:40

yourself. I would be fully sad. Oh

36:43

my God. We don't need to say that. I

36:45

can't tell you the number of times I've resisted

36:47

people's like need to get like just in a

36:50

workplace. They're like, you got to get on TikTok.

36:52

I'm like, please no. No

36:54

one wants this. I don't want, primarily

36:56

me. The world.

36:58

And that right now is the person I will listen to.

37:00

Yeah. You just have to like do

37:03

what is in your skillset and what you're good at

37:05

and what you're going to, I think

37:07

it's freeing. Yeah. It

37:10

is freeing. And I think that like the hope is

37:12

effectively that I one day do get to make

37:15

that like thing with a bigger budget and like.

37:17

Sure. Collaborate with people and like make something that

37:19

feels like I don't have to like read an

37:21

advertisement to make the work that I want to make.

37:24

But that is where we are, I

37:26

think. And most people find themselves in that position.

37:28

And I feel lucky that I'm even able

37:30

to pay for it a little bit. And I'm like, well, for now

37:32

that feels really good to me. I think

37:34

it's great. I feel like with the,

37:36

I feel like the entirety, obviously as

37:38

you've experienced this, I've experienced the entirety

37:41

of the entertainment industry

37:43

has contracted and kind

37:45

of, it's in a pretty bad

37:47

place. So actually taking the reins

37:49

for yourself is actually just satisfying

37:51

and great and so smart. Yeah.

37:54

I mean, you've seen it. Five different

37:56

iterations in that. Yeah. It's

37:58

very difficult to be like. Oh, where we are today

38:01

is not where we were when I started setting the

38:03

goals for myself. When you're like, okay, if I had

38:05

the goal 15 years ago to do X, Y, and

38:07

Z, I can't necessarily achieve

38:09

that goal today. And I think a lot of

38:11

people that have aspirations for entertainment,

38:14

especially like more traditional forms

38:16

like TV or now streaming, et cetera,

38:19

it's sort of like rudderless.

38:23

You know, you're like, how do I achieve this? Like I used

38:25

to feel like I had the idea of like how to get

38:27

there, but now I don't know. Yeah, just

38:29

I think it's like as simple as, I don't know,

38:31

I don't have any secrets. But it's

38:33

like, I think it's as simple as doing

38:35

the thing that you know that you love to do. And

38:38

that's the only thing. And then

38:40

whatever else comes is whatever else.

38:43

But as long as you're like

38:45

answering just like the core drive,

38:48

it's all going to be okay. Yeah,

38:50

I genuinely feel that way. And I

38:52

think that I've come to peace

38:54

with that. Like come to peace, come become a

38:56

piece. Yes, I hear you. I've

38:59

come to peace. I'm just being like,

39:01

oh, that's okay. Like I don't necessarily need to want

39:03

the thing that I wanted 10 years ago or five

39:05

years ago, because that thing is different now. Right.

39:07

Yeah. And so okay, wait, I didn't know

39:09

that you opened a general store. Can you

39:12

please tell me about what

39:14

is what I want to work there? You

39:16

can do a shift. You can sign up.

39:18

Can I? Yes. Okay, I

39:20

gotta say. It's in

39:22

a tiny town called Bloomville, New York. Yeah,

39:25

I bought a building in 2021, like very early

39:27

2021. And I was like, you know what? It

39:35

used to be a pizza restaurant slash

39:37

Airbnb, like a very beloved pizza establishment.

39:40

And I kind of was like, you know what? I don't want

39:42

to hedge my bets

39:44

that like, I

39:47

should rely on the internet for success. I

39:50

shouldn't rely on like things that I cannot

39:52

see, things that I cannot control for my

39:54

financial wellbeing, for my stability, for my creative

39:57

output, for my happiness. And so

39:59

I thought, okay, well, I've always wanted to open a grocery

40:01

store, this

40:05

could be a really great place for that. And

40:12

it just felt like a really cool

40:14

opportunity to

40:17

be like, I'm going to have a physical representation of

40:22

the thing that I've always done, it's

40:27

an obvious choice to be like, oh,

40:29

I'm going to do that. And

40:32

let's say the internet blows up tomorrow, let's

40:35

say Instagram shuts down, let's say

40:37

no one has access to social media and

40:40

being popular and getting paid for

40:42

advertisements based on your popularity. I

40:45

will have a full physical brick and mortar location

40:48

where I can live if I have to, I can make a living, I

40:51

can do something with that. I will have

40:53

a proper energy, but I'm

40:55

so glad that I did it. I

40:57

relate to what you're saying so

40:59

hard. I just

41:02

love like, it's very, I

41:04

grew up in Canada, just very pragmatic

41:06

to be like, no matter what happens,

41:09

you can retreat to this

41:11

place, people still will need to buy

41:13

things, people still need to learn how

41:15

to do stuff. And I'm like

41:17

right here, and I could live here, I could sleep on the... It's

41:21

like a worst case scenario, because we don't know what's

41:23

about to happen. We don't know if it's getting better,

41:25

if it's getting worse, and like interest rates were really,

41:27

really low, and I could afford it because most people

41:30

didn't consider it like a

41:32

viable residence because it was a

41:34

pizza restaurant, but not me. I was like, this

41:36

seems great. I could

41:38

live in a pizza restaurant. I am a

41:40

homesteader now, and I live in a restaurant.

41:42

Yeah, basically. How

41:45

do you eat when you're on the road? When

41:47

you're traveling around so much poorly, it's very difficult.

41:49

But I don't like doing it. I don't like

41:51

doing it anymore. Like going on the road

41:53

for like stretches at a time is not for me anymore.

41:56

That's like a young person's game. I just, I don't want to

41:58

do it. It's too hard.

42:00

It is too hard because you also like

42:02

you finish a thing and you're like, well,

42:04

everything's closed. So like, I'm not actually eating like

42:07

a full meal or like I'm rushing to eat

42:09

at like five and then I don't

42:11

know if my whole system gets thrown off.

42:14

It does. I've had a whole

42:16

reflection after doing some very bad travel in

42:19

airports where I was like, this

42:22

is your meeting people when people are in

42:24

an airport and you're traveling for work. People

42:26

are at a vulnerable spot. They

42:29

need to eat something. They're probably

42:31

upset. You know, you're like sad.

42:33

You're like, who's going to take care of the

42:35

weary traveler because it's nobody at the airport. Please,

42:38

they're not. And I'm like, there are such

42:40

simple fixes to this airport situation. I'm like,

42:42

please just offer people cheese and crackers. You've

42:44

got to have more cheese crackers. It's like

42:46

a part you got to show up. There's

42:48

got to be a free bowl of nuts

42:50

and a little wedge of Monterey Jack with

42:52

like a saltine. Can we have some

42:54

fresh bread? Can we just like have

42:57

some things? There are some such basic staff

42:59

of life issues at an airport where people

43:01

are there for 12 hours sometimes.

43:03

I think I would kill at an airport

43:05

if somebody gave me a lot of money

43:07

to develop and and like

43:10

design a restaurant concept for like four of

43:13

the top airports in the country. They

43:15

would crush. I would do such a good job

43:18

because you have like the Shake Shack and like,

43:20

you know, okay, that's an established burger restaurant

43:23

that like is in the airport and people

43:25

are like, oh wow, there's a Shake Shack here. Every

43:27

other restaurant in an airport is something you've never heard of.

43:30

You've never heard of it and they're making it's not a

43:32

place. Like there's no reason it should be them and not

43:34

me, you know, so I'm talking

43:37

like a meat and three style,

43:39

like beautiful, like rotisserie chicken with some vegetables. There's

43:41

like one soup. It's just it

43:43

can't be that hard. I'm like the sick.

43:46

You have advanced TSA

43:48

operations. You're letting on

43:50

Memorial weekend, like 30 million people traveled

43:53

and like reserved 10%

43:55

of the people to bring in rotisserie

43:57

chicken. Yeah, exactly. Somebody listening to this.

44:00

is like works in airport food service. And

44:02

it's like you have no idea how hard

44:04

it is. You guys are delusional. How dare

44:06

you? I'm like, how hard? Just

44:11

offer cheese, please. I

44:13

almost missed my flight the other day because I went

44:15

to a Joe in the Juice at some airport. And

44:18

I was like, Can I have the blah, blah, blah? And they're like,

44:20

Oh, we're out of kale. And I was like, Okay, I was like,

44:22

Can I have the tada? And they're like, We don't have any cucumbers.

44:25

And I was like, Can I have this? And they're like, Oh, we're

44:27

actually out of that too. And I was like, and I just I was like, I

44:29

gotta go. Yeah, you're just like,

44:31

Can I get some cheese that's in a cup?

44:34

And they're like, Yeah, you're literally bringing ingredients and

44:36

food to like, the most inconvenient

44:38

place in any given city. I

44:41

understand. And I don't I never begrudge the people

44:43

that work at the place. I was not at the

44:45

lady. I was just like, no, where's

44:49

the road to surgery? Yeah, it's not. It's not

44:51

the lady's fault. No, of course, that's our life

44:53

to be rude to airplane

44:55

or airport service people.

44:58

Absolutely not. But we could have

45:01

on a very basic level, a sweet

45:03

green. Yeah, I'm sure they're working on. I'm

45:05

sure I'm sure they'd love to be in a common or

45:08

you know, Alison Roman. I

45:10

just want you to do that so

45:13

badly. It was just because Alison Roman and they'll be

45:15

like, What do you have there? And I'll be like,

45:17

you'll have to come and find out. You'll have to.

45:19

It's just a variety of deliciousness. Do you like watching

45:21

because this is my last question because I

45:24

need to know, do you like watching the bear? Can

45:26

you watch bear? Don't you love it? I

45:28

love that show so much. I mean, I just am a fan of

45:30

the show. I'm a fan of the actors in it. I'm a fan

45:32

of the script. I'm a fan of I think they've done such

45:35

a great job of kind

45:38

of showing the emotional complexities of what it's

45:40

like to work in a restaurant, but also

45:42

tapping into the emotional complexities of the type

45:44

of person that decides to work in a

45:46

restaurant. It's not a regular individual.

45:48

There's some stuff going on. And as a

45:51

person who experiences that themself, I'm like, Wow,

45:53

I talk about feeling seen, you know, but

45:55

oh, yeah, I love it. I think it's

45:57

a great show. It's a great show. I

45:59

feel also that they capture the urgency of

46:02

being behind like in

46:04

a restaurant. Yeah, it's stressful a lot. You're like,

46:06

Oh, this is stressful. Just like it is stressful

46:08

to work in a restaurant. Just like, yes, it

46:10

makes my blood pressure. It's just, and I love

46:12

it. Yeah, the backstory of like the, the families

46:14

and the like, it really paints

46:17

an accurate portrayal of like, here's how

46:19

a person who decides to dedicate themselves

46:21

to working in a restaurant is made.

46:23

You know, here's where they come from.

46:25

And here's what they're seeking in a

46:27

restaurant environment and like why the restaurant

46:29

environment is like that. It's like all

46:31

woven in together. It's fascinating subject to

46:33

me. Yeah, it's a beautiful

46:35

tapestry. Well, I thank you so deeply

46:37

for this. This was so fun for

46:40

me. Oh, same. I really am

46:42

just such a fan of yours. I can't say it enough times.

46:44

You're, you're so important to

46:47

culture. Well, you're important

46:49

to culture. Also,

46:51

thank you. That

46:59

was Alison Roman and I had no choice

47:01

but to look up one thing. She has

47:03

had so much success with online recipes. So

47:05

I needed to know what was the most

47:08

searched for recipe last year.

47:10

Well, turns out in 2023,

47:12

the most

47:15

people Googled how to make

47:17

a McDonald's grimace

47:19

shake. I find

47:21

that so shocking. I

47:24

have never tried one. It

47:27

definitely sounds scary and

47:31

purple and disgusting,

47:33

but also maybe delicious.

47:36

Okay. Thank you so much for

47:38

joining us. I'm Samantha Bee. See you next

47:40

week for some more choice words. Thank

47:56

you for listening to choice words, which was created

47:58

by and is hosted by The

48:01

show is produced by Xvia Bierreich-Reinstein with

48:03

editing and additional producing by Josh Richmond.

48:05

We are distributed by Lemonado Media and

48:08

you can find me at Reel Sam

48:10

B on Instagram and X. Follow

48:13

Choice Awards wherever you get your podcasts or

48:15

listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime

48:17

membership. Hey

48:19

everyone, it's David Duchovny. When

48:22

it comes to confidently managing her finances,

48:24

she's a beginner. Join her on The

48:26

Doe, Lemonado Media's new 10 episode podcast

48:28

series as she dives into better understanding

48:30

the financial trapdoors that any of us

48:32

could fall into. If you've ever

48:35

stayed in a bad relationship to avoid moving out

48:37

costs or found yourself swimming in debt, you're not

48:39

alone. Each week she'll be exploring

48:41

all types of financial flops and money myths that

48:43

stand in the way of our financial freedom. On

48:45

this show, Cash is Queen. We hardly know her,

48:47

but we're determined to be her friend. You can

48:49

listen to The Doe on Amazon Music or wherever

48:52

you get your podcasts. Hey

48:55

everyone, it's David Duchovny. Did you

48:57

ever feel like a failure? Trust

48:59

me, I get it. Hell, I've spent

49:01

my whole life almost feeling like a

49:04

failure. It's appropriate though

49:06

because on Fail Better, my new podcast

49:08

with Lemonado Media, exploring the

49:10

world of failure, how it holds us

49:13

back, propels us forward, and

49:15

ultimately shapes our lives is the whole

49:17

point. Each week

49:19

I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors,

49:21

and experts about how

49:23

our perceived failures have actually been our

49:26

biggest catalysts for growth, revelation,

49:29

and even healing. Through

49:31

these conversations, I hope we can learn how

49:33

to embrace the opportunity of failure and

49:36

Fail Better together. Fail

49:38

Better is out now. You can listen ad-free

49:41

on Amazon Music or wherever you get

49:43

your podcasts.