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1:01

Hey. Everybody! Oh my goodness,

1:03

can you believe that we

1:05

have officially wrapped season one?

1:07

of Choice Words: Forty amazing

1:09

episodes With forty brilliant guests

1:11

brimming with choices upon choices,

1:13

it's an embarrassment of riches

1:15

While the team and I

1:17

gear up to bring you

1:19

more episodes featuring the very

1:21

choice you just have, Words

1:23

were going to bring you

1:25

some of our very most

1:27

favorite episodes from the past

1:30

year, as well. As some new

1:32

podcast we think you might like This

1:34

week we've got an amazing show from

1:36

our friends at Pushkin. It's called a

1:38

Slight Change of Plans named by Apple

1:40

as the best to of the year.

1:42

Twenty Twenty One host Doctor Maya Shankar

1:44

blends compassionate storytelling but the science of

1:46

human behavior to help us understand who

1:48

we are and who we be com

1:50

and the face of a big change.

1:52

The episode you're about to here's all

1:54

about friendship, how to create them, had

1:56

a keep them through life's big changes

1:58

and had a know. Oh ah, when

2:01

it time to break up with

2:03

a friend, because guess what? Just

2:05

like romantic relationships, not all friendships

2:07

are supposed to last forever. As

2:10

you're enjoying the season, make sure to

2:12

follow a slight change of plans on

2:14

whatever app you're using right now. Without

2:16

further ado, Here's his Doctor Maya Center.

2:29

In I looked around of my friends

2:31

and I was little. Why doesn't this

2:33

love matter? Why have I been told

2:35

that this love doesn't count is called

2:37

into question Similar beliefs I had about

2:39

romantic versus platonic love. I thought that

2:42

his messages were actively harming. The and that

2:44

they might be harming other people too. Fast.

2:47

Dr. Murray suffering sell a psychologist

2:49

and an expert on sunset. Society.

2:52

Often teaches us that sense it

2:54

is secondary to other relationship like

2:56

family or a romantic partners and

2:59

rural wants to. Change. It

3:02

as hover say since she shares

3:04

some helpful fatties to enrich the

3:06

quality of our sunsets including a

3:08

concept known as Me to Allergy.

3:11

Need. To all these different from a lot. Of the

3:13

ways that we think about friendship in terms of like

3:15

we did, we might think of it as reciprocity. Like.

3:17

I reserve the said you should result

3:19

the next time, but mutuality is taking

3:22

a step back to look at the

3:24

broader. Dynamics that are going

3:26

on for each of us and

3:28

figuring. Out who's needs makes sense

3:31

to prioritize in this given situation.

3:36

On Today's episode beat Florida Science

3:39

Offensive Why it matters more than

3:41

we like. The

3:45

would be. A

3:54

fight. So. That's

3:56

who we are and really become indices

3:59

to resist. Murtha.

4:14

Is the author of the thought Platonic had

4:16

the same for the cats and can help

4:18

you make and homes. She

4:20

realized just how import incentive was to

4:22

her when she was in early twenties

4:25

and navigating a painful both that. Of

4:27

because he felt that if I couldn't maintain.

4:30

This romantic relationship then. I.

4:32

Was lovable. I didn't have any love in

4:34

my life. And our feelings

4:36

are miserable I think in part because

4:39

of those beliefs and to heal and

4:41

that. Asked. My friend had or whatever he

4:43

said. this one this could be can meet up. That

4:45

Islam is karma yoga. Go on

4:48

walks, have dinner and I thought

4:50

that would really help me feel

4:52

by. Greenpeace and it.

4:54

Is like meeting up with he spends every

4:56

week orderly heal me it wasn't couldn't be

4:59

remanded cheating or doing yoga. It was. Just

5:01

being and community with people that I

5:03

love that loves me every week and

5:05

I think. Another reason why

5:07

that group really healed me is that

5:09

it's called into question. Some.

5:11

Of the beliefs I had, the had caused

5:14

me to take the spread that so hard.

5:16

Which was here I was thinking I'd have

5:18

loved my life when I had evidence of

5:20

just how love there was every week. Like,

5:22

I could no longer engage in that lie

5:24

that I didn't have love. In. I

5:26

felt like, well, I don't think this

5:29

is just me or think this really

5:31

reflects something larger in our culture that's

5:33

really harming and hurting us all. And

5:35

so. understanding. It Nasa

5:37

says man live experience that as

5:40

a larger societal cultural. Problem or

5:42

issue that he had. Is really

5:44

what drove beats one right? Platonic. Yeah,

5:46

I mean this is. One. Of the reasons

5:48

I was obsessed with having you on a

5:51

site change of plans as because I think

5:53

your work as speak to this larger cultural

5:55

issue which is that we be pirates I

5:57

spend set to a third say anything said.

6:00

And. I was thinking back to my

6:02

purse and the views that I hadn't.

6:04

Are. Absolutely grew up thinking that.

6:07

Romantic. Relationship. Sit. At

6:09

the top of that relationship hierarchy and

6:12

that if you don't have that, he

6:14

really doesn't matter how many friends you

6:16

have or how high quality those friendships

6:18

are. Exactly. Yep, I had definitely felt

6:20

the same way. and you know I

6:22

guess even hear things like you need

6:24

one person to complete you which is

6:26

nice if really made me feel like

6:29

I didn't have a a sense of

6:31

self without having a romantic partner and

6:33

seltzer like why do we think that

6:35

one template fit for everybody By think

6:37

that when we have a cultural narrative.

6:39

That so crushing it can get hard

6:41

for people to actually discern like what

6:43

do actually when my life let's actually

6:45

best for me? Like would I prefer

6:47

a life where I have a large

6:50

network of friends and am single? But.

6:52

For. Yeah when I your society teaches you that

6:54

is the make that choice. You're less of a

6:57

person. People are in a screen to actually discern

6:59

what is the less than. Actually went from

7:01

itself. You the

7:03

argument you making your book is that. We.

7:06

Need to reclaim friend set an elevated

7:08

to the status that it deserves. So

7:10

let's start there I reading your book

7:12

that. There. Is a very interesting

7:15

connection that exists between friendship and self identity.

7:17

and as a connection I never really thought

7:19

about the force of you. Tell us a

7:21

bit more about this connection. So.

7:23

I think each person and savvy interact

7:26

with is an advertisement for the kaleidoscope

7:28

of ways in which we can live

7:30

and. Of the ways that people show

7:32

up in the world their how we learn to

7:34

show up in the world to like that learning

7:37

happens. Through. Being able to see a

7:39

friend in do to a certain hobby or interest

7:41

in your like. Maybe I would like that have

7:43

your interests like and that exposure that we get

7:45

through each planet and so in that way it's

7:48

like each person that we interact with can bring

7:50

out a new and different side of our identity

7:52

and feel. When are only interacting with one person

7:54

it's like. One. Thousand we've we've been

7:56

told Cbc the only worth of we need

7:59

to so complete. Some kind of like

8:01

we only have one experience of our south

8:03

and all of the parts of ourselves that

8:05

maybe aren't aligned with what are spouse like

8:07

snap because you're incompatible with your spouse. The

8:09

just because you're different people. With different hobbies

8:11

and different interests, those parts of you

8:13

might not come out when you're only

8:16

interacting with them and so it requires

8:18

us to be in. Community with

8:20

different types of people to experience the

8:22

different sides of ourselves into have. Our.

8:25

Identities. San. Outs

8:27

and I think that this was a sense at

8:29

least I got is tense in the ten dem

8:31

make when I was living with the partner and.

8:34

Still, Feeling like unease? Are still

8:36

feeling old. It's. A little weird

8:38

sort is Malays when you're just like

8:40

her, know my identity case grunting inward

8:43

like I would hang out with my

8:45

friends and feel like I'm just filling

8:47

with live at a know. I just

8:49

have different emotions that tend to come

8:51

up around different people and so I

8:53

was experiencing my palette of emotions. More.

8:55

Greatly and I think that's really important as

8:57

I think there's a lot of stealing gray

8:59

and during bleed they're feeling kind of numb

9:02

and so it almost made me feel more

9:04

alive to see like oh this than and

9:06

like laughing and good joking about the skiing

9:08

and we're excited about this other thing and

9:10

that might have been part of why they.

9:12

Just made me feel like more expansive and

9:14

more alive when I interacted with them. Murray.

9:17

Some serious is their research showing

9:20

that there is a strong connection

9:22

between friendship and our physical and

9:24

mental health. Yeah to their

9:26

say that found that people that were. Exposed

9:28

to the virus that causes of the common cold

9:30

for. Example: Were less likely to actually

9:33

contracts the common cold when they had

9:35

a diversity. Of support when they

9:37

were inches, the relying on different

9:39

people for support in their lives.

9:42

And there's other research that to links

9:44

having a diversity support to your general

9:46

sense of wellbeing. Overall. I

9:49

love the research for a said that

9:51

so that healthy, strong friendships are associated

9:53

with more resilience and are other relationships.

9:55

Do you mind sharing a bit more

9:57

about that? Yeah. This is it.

10:00

The I think it's unfortunate that we sometimes

10:02

perceive a romantic relationship than our friendships as

10:04

antagonistic like oh, you're being of their friends,

10:06

you're not hanging out with me. Instead of

10:08

whole, you're hang out your friends. That's great.

10:10

Now we can have more quality next in

10:12

when you come back. Definitely. Which is it

10:14

is the truth seekers in a research finds

10:17

that. For example, if I make a friend that

10:19

only am I less depressed, but my. Romantic

10:21

partner is also likely to be less

10:23

depressed. So what can improve on partners

10:25

matter how will. Likely improve the other

10:27

partners mental health. And that's what

10:29

we see when people make friends. There's

10:31

research defensive when spouses or in a

10:34

state of conflict, it's negatively impacts their

10:36

release of the stress hormone cortisol, but

10:38

not when they have that quality connection

10:40

outside of the marriage as wow. And

10:42

so it's just like if you're just

10:44

like understands, whatever happens in that relationship

10:46

is going to be so deterministic for

10:49

how you're doing overall. But if you

10:51

have colleagues that's not part of the

10:53

marriage, it's like. You. Have a

10:55

buffer. You know, because I have a shield.

10:57

Like if things aren't going well, that doesn't

10:59

mean. That you're completely sunk internally

11:01

because you can rely on the

11:03

outside resources as a pick me

11:05

up. At A So

11:08

when I say he's convinced us that

11:10

friendship is important right? As something that

11:12

we says all the working to invest

11:14

in and wonder is it can get

11:16

tactical at this stage and if we

11:18

can learn from you how we can

11:20

do a better job of making friends

11:22

in adulthood. I think an

11:24

issue that we have is that we

11:26

think friendship will happen in adulthood like

11:28

it did in so I'll said which

11:30

means we won't have to try and

11:32

be intentional. And there's a sociologist Rebecca

11:35

Adams and she said when we have

11:37

repeated unplanned and tracks and said vulnerability

11:39

that's when friendships happened more than likely

11:41

lead. You don't let us. It's A

11:43

D C people in a way that

11:45

repeated over time even though it's is.

11:47

Not planned like work for. Example: And it

11:49

do. You have your guard down and at

11:51

work? I don't know. People have their guard down

11:53

like they tend to not be as vulnerable

11:55

as they might be outside of. The

11:57

workplace. so. Basically What? that?

12:00

The Great As a God, we don't

12:02

have that same environment. We had his

12:04

kids to just rely on friendship happening.

12:06

We can't assume that have happened organically

12:08

any more like we're gonna have to

12:11

try. And in fact, one study found

12:13

that people that thought friendship happened. Without.

12:16

Efforts were more lonely over

12:18

time, whereas those. That side is

12:20

happening based on efforts, were less lonely overtime

12:22

and they're also more like that. actually make

12:24

that effort. So I think you know by

12:26

showing up at a place of worship or

12:29

a hobby or interest group silks, you know

12:31

when the understand it as not happening organically,

12:33

we understand that. Okay, that mean I'm gonna

12:35

have to. Make. A choice

12:37

to do something in my life. To

12:40

find friends. Keys.

12:42

Hosted it more about why repeated

12:44

interactions are so important when it

12:47

comes to facilitating census. Yeah.

12:49

So it's because it's something called the

12:52

mere exposure, a fact which makes the

12:54

your effect describe their tendency to like

12:56

things that are familiar and for people

12:58

to like us. The more that

13:01

we become similiar if. You continue to

13:03

be exposed to some and they don't harm you

13:05

than you build trust with them. And so I

13:07

think when we have that repeated interact send. Me:

13:09

Your exposure increases. We like them more,

13:12

they like us more and if we

13:14

do and to initiate any traction and

13:16

says something like. Hey. I

13:18

really enjoyed talking to deal with up

13:21

to connect further you open to changing

13:23

contact information were just more likely to

13:25

be successful. versus. When we've

13:27

seen someone once media like a lecture at a

13:29

bar and then we ask them to hang out.

13:32

Either one reason. We. Sere

13:34

initiating friendship as that. Of course most

13:37

of us are afraid of rejection and

13:39

so what's your advice to us to

13:41

help us overcome this kind of anxiety?

13:44

Well. The research finds that. People.

13:46

Like you more than you think they do

13:48

Nice Specifically right? since this set of the

13:51

sitting in fact that he I used to

13:53

physically the rest of us were. and it's

13:55

it's game us out there. That.

13:58

Basically when fingers interact. The

14:00

and then underestimate. How like they are

14:02

by the other person and the more

14:04

self critical you are, the more pronounced

14:06

this underestimation. Is and so generally people

14:08

like us more than we might think

14:11

like. Our brain is kind of programmed

14:13

with this negativity bias where we register

14:15

with negative information more than positive, which.

14:17

Means our predictions as to how are

14:19

coming off are often more cynical than

14:22

the actual truth. So people. Are less

14:24

likely to reject you the new things

14:26

and I also tell people to assume

14:28

people like them because. The. Receipts

14:30

find that when people are told you

14:32

know based on your personality profile you

14:34

will be like and this is a

14:36

lie from the researchers just to see

14:38

getting people that they actually go out

14:40

and to group and they become warmer,

14:42

open and friendlier until it becomes a

14:44

sort of south Philly prophecy whereas we

14:46

know that people are who are more

14:48

rejection sensitive who tend to see Vertex

14:50

and when it's not they're like oh

14:52

my friend in and text me back

14:54

or my friend came to the cell

14:56

and they didn't sit right next to

14:58

me. That that mean they don't like

15:00

me. They actually tend to reject people.

15:02

Will become more cold. They become more.

15:05

Withdrawn. and then people reject the math

15:07

after you know they've been rejected. So

15:09

it in some ways when we always

15:11

think we're being rejected it also influences

15:13

are behavior to make that rejects in

15:15

a more. Of a self fulfilling prophecy to.

15:19

So to summarize, there is a at this

15:21

is so interesting because I talked with the

15:23

Nes upon so so as well and she

15:25

calls the selecting gonna try and I'm assuming

15:27

that that your friends who it is the

15:29

like and doubtless answer. There's a gap between

15:31

our executions of so much people really like

15:33

A for this and that we think they

15:35

like us. and the good news is that

15:37

they tend to like this more than we

15:39

think, so that's reassuring Yes and then the

15:41

second is. Just. Remember that it

15:43

is a self fulfilling prophecy so play

15:45

the part of someone who believes there

15:47

likeable and lovable and worthy of friendship,

15:49

love and the more you do that

15:51

the more your best traits are recruited

15:53

for new. Whereas if you go into

15:55

a situation believing you'll get rejected that

15:57

will bring out the were sides of

15:59

you. Exactly. You know and

16:01

that is a really great point. Weary when I

16:03

see people act and very harmful lays in. their

16:06

friend said it's because they think people don't care

16:08

about them right? So I never reach out to

16:10

my friends cause I think they're going to see

16:12

it as a bird and it's just when we

16:14

think someone is gonna reject us, it licenses us

16:16

to engage in all types of harmful and crappy

16:18

the ever through. like they're not going to care

16:21

anyway if I go to them. so I guess

16:23

I'm just gonna go them so they don't really

16:25

care about me and so in some ways. But

16:27

I think that's why believing people care about you

16:29

and believing people love you causes. You to

16:32

be a lot. Better. Of ascend.

16:35

After the break. From the tell them how

16:37

he can be better sense to the people. Who

16:39

are already and I like. Will be back

16:42

in a moment with a change of pace.

16:49

Hey listeners if you liked this

16:51

shells and check out dinners I

16:54

need with Jesse Taylor Ferguson. If

16:56

you haven't heard of this show

16:58

yet and now would be surprising

17:00

because as a hat If features

17:02

Jesse Tyler Ferguson ak a match

17:04

for Modern family as he sits

17:07

down the famous costs for a

17:09

delicious meal in Canada. conversations together

17:11

or they get vulnerable about everything

17:13

from relationships and family history to

17:15

mental health and imposter syndrome with

17:17

guests like at O'neill Sofia. Vergara

17:20

and Seem a little sooner than

17:22

Me is a place for intimate

17:24

sharing. Blaster honest discussion it's

17:26

so hard actually ah to

17:28

pick a favorite episode but

17:30

the Elizabeth Banks on definitely

17:32

up there styles this have

17:35

story all about how Bruce

17:37

well as was key to

17:39

her getting and Oliver Stone

17:41

some of us that's just

17:43

shares which movie of hers

17:45

she does not want hurt

17:47

children to see which is

17:49

some honestly reliable is also

17:51

an amazing episode with Jonathan

17:53

Van Ness about. Reclaiming queer narratives.

17:56

What it's like to live in Texas

17:58

as a clear person, there. Need

18:00

to discovering their non binary identity and

18:02

why a guinea pig name's Tina is

18:04

causing a stir in some libraries? Deadly.

18:06

Start with one of those two. I

18:08

know when I'm sharing a great meal

18:10

with friends, all the best stories come

18:12

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19:36

We thought of to this point about how it is that

19:38

we can do a better job. Making. Nuisance.

19:41

Noise left a ticket to how we

19:43

can do a better job as investing

19:45

in and maintaining our current friendships. Guess

19:47

what are the factors that we should

19:49

keep in mind? So.

19:52

When it comes to. Keeping the

19:54

friends that makes me think about this

19:56

theory called risk regulation. Theory, which was

19:58

originally created for romantic. Partner. But I think

20:00

apply for friends to and it's. This. Idea

20:02

that we decide how much to invest in

20:04

a relationship. Based on our likelihood of be

20:07

rejected. And. The more that we can

20:09

convey to someone. That we won't reject

20:11

them the more they can invest

20:13

in the relationship with us. And

20:15

so. Showing affection towards

20:17

friends, being. Generous towards friends Anything

20:19

that so someone that you love any value

20:22

than is going to help the friendship it's

20:24

going to deepen the friends amazing that says

20:26

care, consideration investment in the other person to

20:28

that the scientists at other person like oh

20:31

now I can invest this willie with for

20:33

for me to invest because of how much

20:35

investment they've shown in May and dry talk

20:37

in my book about for example lead. Generosity.

20:41

Effects in even I think vulnerability in some

20:43

ways. like when people. Are vulnerable

20:45

with us back under stress that they

20:47

trust us and it makes us more

20:49

likely to be vulnerable with them on

20:51

all these behaviors that show investment. Are

20:53

gonna better are lessons at that. We

20:55

can also talk about miss concept called

20:58

mutuality. And need to out. He

21:00

is different from a lot of the ways

21:02

that we think about friendship. In terms of

21:05

we might think of it as reciprocity. I

21:07

reserve the said you should reach out the

21:09

next time, but mutuality is like taking a

21:11

step back to look at the broader dynamics.

21:14

That are going on for each

21:16

of us and figuring out who

21:18

needs made sense to prioritize in

21:20

this given situation itself. When. I

21:22

mean by that my is that there might be

21:25

times in my friend is in a lot of

21:27

stress you know going to mental health issues just

21:29

had a newborn babies were I can't expect me

21:31

to algae eaters. I understand that I have greater

21:33

capacity than they do and then another time he

21:35

know they might be investing more in me like

21:38

Michelle and I'm. Also talked about this in her new book

21:40

Club. A relationship is ever going to

21:42

be fifty fifty. and I see that in

21:44

terms of long term friendships, he'll There's gonna

21:46

be a period when you're giving more. That

21:48

can be a period when you're getting more

21:50

And it's like the measure of the qualities

21:52

more so, unlike the larger scheme of things.

21:55

That's so funny that you mention that because

21:57

one of my best friends recently came over

22:00

to share that's your opinion and sooner husband

22:02

were here and they joke. From.

22:04

Fisher to say our goodbyes. My and

22:06

Jimmy It's been so wonderful being friends

22:08

with Ios And of course she's not

22:10

into the fact that you know for

22:12

Centurions had of disappear for an extended

22:14

period in those early years and he

22:16

knew he was a joke but it

22:18

did actually lead me to have a

22:21

candid conversation with her a couple weeks

22:23

later about. How for the first

22:25

time ever since he met in

22:27

college when we are teenagers, our

22:29

lives are diverging in this really

22:31

profound way and thing. I'm wondering

22:33

if you had advance. For.

22:35

Me in this. Case. And and and

22:37

listeners as well about how to

22:39

navigate friendships with our lives feel

22:41

like they're entering completely different says.

22:45

I love the fact that you had a conversation

22:47

with your friend because I think. Part.

22:50

Of the reason my friendships tend to tear when

22:52

we move into these different stages is because we

22:54

rely on a set of assumptions. Light.

22:56

On Spurs as a kid they have no time. To talk to

22:58

me they don't want to hear from me or. People.

23:00

That have kids being like my single friends since

23:02

my life is boring and they don't want to

23:04

be around my kids like him with them. And

23:06

it's the set of the sense is that to

23:08

pause the part where is we can actually have

23:11

a conversation. Okay like I love to still hang

23:13

out sometime. What does that look like for you?

23:15

Does it mean I have to come over after

23:17

that? It is put the bad as how comfortable

23:19

are you hanging out with the can around? What

23:21

are your boundaries around this Instead I'm. Just. Going

23:23

assume that you're too busy to ever talk

23:25

to me again. You. Can affirm in identity

23:27

and a friend even though it's not your own

23:30

even it's not one that you choose for yourself.

23:32

But realizing that it's. Right for them. And

23:34

that's actually related to maintaining best friendships

23:36

overtime, maintaining a deepening best friendships over

23:38

time when you can do that. And

23:40

so that looks like. Even. If

23:42

we don't have the same life experience must also

23:44

interest in our differences. With those her interest in

23:46

what's it like for you to be a mom

23:49

or with that like for you to live your

23:51

father's wife. What are you doing that bad? And

23:53

instead of assuming that because we have this difference

23:55

it's not something that we eat internet thought because

23:57

we do. Look for friendship. For.

23:59

Criminal. The but also for expansion and Co.

24:01

Now this friendship is gonna provide you an

24:03

opportunity to that fan and be like oh

24:06

this is what it's like when someone really

24:08

close to me has a kid and either

24:10

with their concerns are these are the thing

24:12

that sets them out and is maintained Curiosity

24:14

about that still has his back on at

24:16

a point you're making earlier and our conversation

24:18

or a said that while since it's can

24:20

be mind expanding in this a really powerful

24:22

way that you felt so alive when he

24:24

started yourself or tapped into are you are

24:27

learning about you aspects of the world and

24:29

I I love that resign. And I

24:31

think it's not I'll carry with me as

24:33

my friend has the sales And another thing

24:35

that seen i talked it out in the

24:37

summer season was the long term nature of

24:40

our friendship so we kind of acknowledge there

24:42

might be some speed bumps or might be

24:44

some harder moments in time in the short

24:46

term. But let's not forget that we are

24:48

committed for life as friends. I love that.

24:51

yeah I saw no conversation. Pretty therapeutic because

24:53

I think as having a lot of anxiety

24:55

around what would happen to this best friendship

24:57

of mine and so it felt good it

24:59

to confront it had on even though I

25:02

was a little nervous to have the conversation.

25:05

Think that's really awesome and think

25:07

that's really, really awesome. And surmises

25:09

the study on lake long distance

25:11

friendships that are maintaining them was

25:13

kind of looking at. The. Times

25:15

and you don't talk are. Flexible. Not

25:17

fragile like friendship, ton of and slow. If we

25:19

have an ab, let's not assume the friendship is

25:21

over if I never engage, but instead of assume

25:23

that this is part. Of the life story of

25:26

the friends. If there's gonna be moments where we're

25:28

spread apart. And then and there's gonna be

25:30

moments where we come back together again. Stay

25:32

in your reminding me this moment with this

25:34

particular friend. We already share that in our

25:36

history, so we were inseparable. We are tested

25:38

the hip when we are in college and

25:41

then she studied abroad for a period of

25:43

time and then obviously communication went down for

25:45

a bit and that a couple years later

25:47

the intensity of our communications increase. I mean,

25:49

there's been that waxing and waning already, and

25:51

yet here we are in current day with

25:53

a very stable, healthy friendship and so it's

25:55

nice to build a look back at that

25:57

historical data points. As evidence. There

26:00

we can get through these periods where things go

26:02

up and down. I mean yeah, and I was

26:04

on a path. as as someone who is, I

26:06

think he was in. His sixties and he never

26:08

had kids and he was like dress. Remember, your

26:11

friendships are gonna come back their kids

26:13

are gonna leave the nest at And

26:15

then it's interviews. like you're back in

26:17

your twenties, like how much time you

26:19

and if men with your friends and

26:21

like wow yeah season a needy eventually

26:23

and then it says an empty nester

26:25

Eleven of it. The success of See

26:27

Know I mentioned diversify South a little

26:29

bit of anxiety when it came to

26:31

raising this topic with my sons. And

26:33

speaking of anxiety, one area that can

26:35

cause us a lot of anxiety is

26:38

fighting in the context of and and.

26:40

In. Part this is because we're led to

26:42

believe that. It's. Unreasonable for us

26:44

to has big arguments that our friends

26:47

because after all they're just our friends

26:49

right? The. Usain Your book is

26:51

actually quite important to sites in friendship

26:53

in our Us. In this moment in

26:55

Paris, to have those difficult conversations with

26:58

friends were in the moment is hills

27:00

easier to person under the rug so

27:02

that's not actually in the long term

27:05

best interest of the sunset. Yeah, this

27:07

was like my biggest growth areas. Friendships

27:09

that I was like being a good

27:11

friend means me getting over it says

27:14

this: Totally getting over there problem that

27:16

I have in this friendship and then

27:18

realizing. Oh I'm actually like just

27:20

with dry summer actually just getting over it

27:23

and it's hurting and harming my senses. And

27:25

so I started to read all this research

27:27

said. You. Know people who really value

27:29

friendship tend to actually address problems instead

27:31

of just ignoring them, and that open

27:34

and pass a conflict is correlated with.

27:36

Deeper intimacy and. So

27:38

I was like wow, am I

27:40

actually missing out. On this opportunity

27:42

for intimacy by trying to ignore

27:44

the conflict and stairs a psychoanalyst

27:47

Virginia Colder. Who. Talks about how you can. Have.

27:49

Lasted Safety which is basically we're close

27:51

because we pretend there's never any problems.

27:53

are dynamic. Cc brief It actually rupture and

27:55

repair and rupture and repair. And then you have

27:58

a president that. Whenever a problem. That.

28:00

We know that we can actually address it and make it

28:02

better is a set of are only us has been through

28:04

it just. Injure or walk away. And

28:07

so I just was like moon.

28:09

Movie. Actually need to address this is

28:12

my friend. That and that was another way.

28:14

Whereas compartmentalize into the sea right because I

28:16

knew and five move limited partnerships that am

28:18

I was get a half. their address problems

28:21

and work through issues and your fab marriage

28:23

is hard are going after you know where

28:25

to draw these problems the other and not

28:27

realizing that part of intimacy is conflict and

28:30

so friendship is also going to require the

28:32

same set of skills. And

28:34

the other thing that I realize was that

28:36

I was conflict in conflict with combat when

28:38

in fact conflict with like reconciliation and so

28:41

with me learning to do things like frame

28:43

the conversation as a to blab lead hey

28:45

I want to talk about this because you're

28:47

so important to me you know and and

28:49

a new you're having kids and I'm so

28:51

excited for you and you know I have

28:54

seen these ideas about weathering the stay close.

28:56

I figured I would bring it up so

28:58

we could still find. A way to close the

29:00

the said like through the bears. And

29:02

then using i stayed mans I guess

29:04

and feeling. A little nervous about how

29:07

this could impact their closeness and then

29:09

perspective taking which looks like. The

29:11

neutrality of as you share your feelings, how

29:13

you feel, what are you thinking. And

29:15

then asking for what you need in the future like. You.

29:18

Know maybe I'd still like to see like

29:20

once a month or first. man, How about

29:22

work? Out for you. And so

29:24

I think healthy conflict looks like wading into the

29:27

ambivalent play The part of me as afraid to

29:29

we actually feel some of the same things. As

29:31

the state change or this issue in our friendship has come

29:33

on. As really resonate with

29:36

the same the conversation as affirmation of

29:38

love and thinking about my my closest

29:40

friends and York Times. he's like it

29:42

was just let this go sense said

29:44

says they became professionals my friends if

29:46

I know it is why do we

29:48

have discuss these things you know get

29:50

we decide and I I told him

29:52

I like hey you do realize that

29:54

I don't put in this effort with

29:56

everyone right? It's because I care so

29:58

much about you and. Communication and or

30:01

lifelong friendship that I do try to

30:03

conflict result and problem saw the obviously

30:05

up with a happy medium that it

30:07

was. I think those really offending for

30:09

him. I feel like he seems the

30:11

whole spin on why it was that

30:14

I was initiating these kinds of uncomfortable

30:16

conversations. Absolutely. And I think

30:18

as a professor I really tried to be

30:20

intentional about making missed instill face and what

30:22

comes out of that is they demand so

30:24

much more of me and I remember hearing

30:27

from this psychologists he said he starts says

30:29

she said the most toxic person is the

30:31

least confronted. And co of. Your.

30:33

Friends are coming up to you the to

30:35

address the issue. Maybe put aside your crappy

30:37

friend? Maybe to find that they still sleep

30:39

enough to actually bring. Up. A problem instead

30:42

of trying to ignore it. Yeah.

30:44

That's a really excellent way of seeing it.

30:46

You. Wouldn't invest the time in someone that

30:48

you didn't You. You wouldn't feel vulnerable

30:50

enough to bring this up with someone

30:53

that you didn't in this deeply trust

30:55

exactly. And so it's have seen owed

30:57

to the quality of the friendship and

30:59

that you're having this conversation. Will

31:02

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31:09

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sand be. There's.

33:11

Some cases of course where.

33:14

For. Whatever reason, transitions in life, the

33:16

nature of the relationship. you actually feel

33:18

it's important to break up with a

33:21

friend and I can be extremely uncomfortable.

33:23

Give a what do you recommend that

33:25

people do in a situation like that

33:28

where they just realize this friendships as.

33:30

It isn't serving the anymore. It's not good

33:32

for either of us you know Whatever the

33:35

reason is it's seals on it's it's a

33:37

hard space murtha because there's an execution and

33:39

society that me with me break up a

33:41

significant others and you necessary part of the

33:44

kids are the narrative that that happens that

33:46

the idea of breaking up at of sans

33:48

just feels almost the that foreign and a

33:50

little taboo and yet to let me make

33:53

sense of this. Yeah. So

33:55

I think it depends. On.

33:59

Whether the other. Griffin is too invested in you

34:01

are knock it seems mutual and the other person's

34:03

pulling way. You're pulling away and I think it's

34:05

fine to just kind of pull away and let

34:07

it be. But if the other person continues to

34:10

seem invested in a friendship with you and your

34:12

no longer invested in the friendship with than. The.

34:14

Kindest thing to do is to tell them

34:16

speak as if you don't tell them. You

34:18

trigger something called ambiguous Loss was is

34:20

when we have a lot of trouble.

34:22

Processing our grief because we don't have any

34:25

closer and it's almost like they're going and

34:27

the grieving twice because you weren't able to

34:29

muster up the courage. To have a

34:31

conversation so it's. Frightening and but it doesn't

34:33

feel mean. That's the thing I think with something

34:36

like ghosting their sets, emotional and congress between experience

34:38

has been the go through and receiving. We go

34:40

saying like it's like ours is kind of forgot

34:42

about it but the other person is like of

34:44

keeping them up at night in their ruminating on

34:46

it so I think it's really important. Remember that

34:49

in Congress because if we don't we might be

34:51

like well it's know what for me so I

34:53

think it's fine Ray and then they are you

34:55

just gonna make about had to stories into their

34:57

brain has his negativity bias. The stories are probably

34:59

can be lot meaner than what you're going to

35:02

tell them and. So yeah, I suggest

35:04

you know having a conversation about it.

35:06

It's not cruel. you're talking about yourself

35:08

and your own experience at how. Your

35:11

needs headphones? And I

35:13

hope that this conversation happens after.

35:15

You've. Tried to address the problem with them and

35:18

given them a sense to repair it and it.

35:20

Hasn't necessarily work unless it's a did the trail

35:22

of course and enough the zebra trail then

35:24

it might be one thing that really has broken

35:26

the friendship, but if it's something like smaller

35:28

I'm doing like sometimes I feel like in our

35:30

conversations you get space to like care about

35:32

me and were mostly focused on you. like to

35:35

help that you have that kind of this

35:37

and for deciding from the friendship. And

35:39

enough, it's coming to a point where

35:41

just like you know, sometimes I feel

35:43

like we have really incompatible communication styles

35:45

and that leaves me leave their interaction

35:48

stealing like kind of sad. And that's

35:50

why I'm feeling like this friendship isn't

35:52

necessarily working out for us anymore. Maybe

35:54

you are trying to engage with me

35:56

innocently, but I just hadn't been reading

35:58

it that way and. That's right,

36:00

Expensive really hasn't felt like it's working for me.

36:03

you know, adding like I just wanted to make.

36:05

Sure, I was being. Up France and

36:07

Transparent with you moving forward. Something

36:10

like that. It sounds. Cruel.

36:13

But it's a lot less cruel

36:15

then. Not giving someone

36:17

any closer. That. Ah

36:20

one piece of advice I took

36:22

away from your book is that

36:24

when offensive and for whatever reason

36:26

we really need to give ourselves

36:28

the space to grieve because he

36:30

talk about the fact that in

36:32

our society pain associated with the

36:34

last offensive is devalued. Yes this

36:36

term called disenfranchised grief which is

36:38

like when society doesn't legitimize. Our

36:40

loss, We can't. With the demise

36:42

it ourselves internally and we might invalidated our

36:44

own grief process. And and there's one thing

36:46

you should know about grief It said you

36:48

can't suppress it and push it away that

36:50

you've actually have the field agree for it

36:52

to be released from here. And so that's

36:54

why I think a lot of. People.

36:57

That lose really close friends, feel

36:59

very isolated, feel very alienated, can

37:01

feel preoccupied with the loss for

37:04

says a long period of time

37:06

because they feel like. Bear.

37:09

Or loss. Is. It the and their losses

37:11

at significant while their body's telling them the

37:13

opposite message that this is a big loss

37:15

for you, that you have to feel this

37:17

and that you have to acknowledge it. And

37:20

so that's one of the reasons why some

37:22

people are like friendship protest hurt even more

37:24

than you know divorce a romantic relationship radar.

37:27

Standard reading A lot is riding on

37:29

this topic recently, and there are many,

37:31

many people who have said that their

37:33

friends, it's ending exactly as you say,

37:35

were far more painful than any romantic

37:38

relationship that came to an end Said

37:40

at least. Grateful that you're getting a

37:42

strategies for. Trying to end

37:44

the friendships with a bit more closer to

37:46

the extent that can help us heel or

37:48

how the other person he'll. Have

37:51

his working in this space change the way

37:53

that you think about their friends in your

37:55

life. Like is there any anecdote that comes

37:57

to mind in which he thank you as

37:59

a result is exploring it's research for years

38:01

I now and getting with my friends differently.

38:04

So I aspire to.

38:06

Hold friendship at the same regard as

38:08

I do romantic relationships, especially for my

38:10

closest friends in my life. So

38:13

I had a friend. She was

38:15

coming back from Mexico and arising

38:17

from the. Airport at like

38:19

twelve thirty am and.

38:21

I was contemplating whether my to pick her

38:23

up and are as like I'm so tired.

38:25

I'm in bed by twelve midnight and I

38:27

have my cell. Would. I

38:29

offered to take up my romantic

38:31

partner. And I was

38:34

like yeah, absolutely like I would say have

38:36

to pick up my romantic partner And so

38:38

then I decided. That I would go offer to

38:40

pick her for the airport to. And I did. And

38:42

I realize this is the work. And what

38:44

is your friends reaction to that? like what is hefty

38:46

think that had on your friendship. Oh

38:48

my gosh, I think it really seems as

38:50

if. Anything she

38:52

realized that I was really invested in

38:54

the fence. It. Once. He realized

38:57

I was invested, see started to invest like

38:59

all my plants died because he got too

39:01

cold and seat notice that and see just

39:03

like came over and bought a plant for

39:05

me and then since then we've just been

39:07

like sitting out a lot more often because

39:09

I think there's this freedom that comes from

39:11

knowing this person loves you and is intensely

39:14

trying to invest the new that. Allows.

39:16

Each of us to needed a lot more of the risky. Behaviors

39:18

that promote into the sea. And

39:21

looked at our conversation with a piece of

39:23

research that you talk about in your blood

39:26

and it's a that's how we. Tend

39:28

to have the wrong idea about what

39:30

people value and us as friends. yeah

39:32

and understanding this can actually quite in

39:34

power. He tell us more. Yazidis

39:37

a city where people were asked to

39:39

rate their most important traits and a

39:41

friend and I think before setting friendship

39:43

i thought that treat a speed and

39:45

charismatic are entertaining or funny that in

39:47

advance and of like had it on

39:49

his show had to get people to

39:51

like you by the number one treat

39:53

people valued with this concept ego support

39:55

which is someone making you feel like

39:57

you matter and someone making you feel.

40:00

Really? Valued and really loved. And I think

40:02

this message is very hopeful because some people

40:04

think that if I want to make. Friends.

40:06

I have changed fundamentally who I am.

40:08

and it's not about who you are

40:11

making friends is about being loving towards

40:13

other people. Hey.

40:48

Thanks so much for listening. To this season

40:50

of a say changes hands. I

40:52

really hope you found these conversations

40:55

hopeful that ever since and you

40:57

just heard actually inspired me to

40:59

reset tonight. That sense and childhood

41:01

Christine I hadn't talked to her

41:03

in over twenty years. He was

41:05

a magical reconnection. For.

41:07

Something you've heard on the cell has changed

41:10

the way you approach her life. I'd love

41:12

to hear from you on Instagram at Doctor

41:14

My As center you can also check this

41:16

account for a sneak peak of are coming

41:19

season. Will be back in your. Season They

41:21

came in late May. If

41:23

even. A

41:35

Fight Scenes of Plans have Created Written

41:37

and executive produced by Mean. A A

41:39

center a fake his family into

41:41

their save energy their Green a

41:43

senior editor is in Morgan or.

41:46

Sound Engineer Answer That Fella and

41:48

are associate producer Thera. Louis

41:51

scare I wrote are delightful theme and

41:53

since or said helped. Arrange of up on. A.

41:56

Site: She's A plans. The. Production of fish

41:58

in industries. Everyone

42:01

there and of course. A

42:03

very special thanks to Jimmy Real. Even

42:07

follows a key decision. insufficient. Okay

42:31

I'm a my sounding like I have a little bit

42:33

of a lot yeah founding like you have a little

42:35

bit of like annie yea I you have a like.

42:38

Okay at work? Hello!

42:40

Hi! Oh that. I think that's a

42:42

lot better. Can you just tell me what you eat

42:44

for breakfast? Yet. Add

42:47

some food and group. Some.

42:49

Cauliflower toast said for lunch or

42:52

had some race and some says

42:54

and some salad with olives and

42:56

pickles. Am I sending your son

42:59

English? You're an extremely healthy person.

43:02

Ssssss. Holly

43:04

Flower read would have colleagues are bread.

43:16

And her big bro Ryan Trainer and

43:18

her husband they're also Bara each. We

43:20

got our podcast working on it. we

43:22

share behind the scenes stories and bring

43:24

you into are hilarious and a hard

43:27

sell. Conversations sometimes with amazing guess. We

43:29

tackle everything from navigating Hollywood to mental

43:31

health to make him becoming a mother.

43:33

Daryl, becoming a father and so much

43:35

more will. Get into the nitty gritty of

43:37

our lives in the people about Life as

43:39

it really is. Beautiful. Terrible

43:42

and everything in between.

43:46

Let's be human together. Everything

43:48

Happens is available where ever you get.

43:50

Your Podcasts. Hello

43:52

hello hello I am Jose

43:55

address maybe you know me

43:57

from my restaurants or maybe

43:59

from was. Central Kitchen, the

44:01

organization I found to feed

44:03

people after disasters. Well it's

44:06

time for you to know

44:08

my podcast. Longer tables,

44:11

Each episode I get to

44:14

know fascinating people in the

44:16

most intimate way. Through.

44:18

Foot. Is. Stacey Abrams

44:21

George My Jane Goodall

44:23

Padma Lakshmi.