0:00

Film , acting is actually doing

0:02

it all sorts of different ways and

0:04

because we have the luxury of editing

0:06

like that's , that's the other thing a lot

0:08

of actors don't realize that we have

0:10

editing . It's okay to screw up . You

0:12

don't have to have a perfect tape

0:14

from from action to cut at

0:17

30 , 40 , 50 times .

0:21

This is the Cinematography for Actors podcast

0:23

.

0:24

More than a podcast . Cinematography

0:26

for Actors is a vibrant community

0:28

devoted to bridging the gap between talent

0:30

and crew . Each week , our show offers

0:32

transparent , insightful conversations

0:35

with industry leaders . We unveil

0:37

the magic behind the scenes , from candid

0:39

discussions about unique filmmaking processes

0:41

to in-depth technical exploration

0:43

. Join us in unraveling the intricacies

0:46

of filmmaking , one episode at a time . It's

0:49

more than just cameras and lenses we

0:51

aim to inspire , educate and empower

0:53

as we peel back the curtain on the art of

0:55

effective storytelling . Now on to the

0:57

episode . Hi

0:59

everybody , welcome to an episode

1:01

of Cinematography for Actors podcast

1:03

. I'm your host , haley Royal . I'm joined

1:05

here by your other host , indiana Underhill

1:08

, and I am so

1:11

excited for today's episode . It's been

1:13

a minute since Indiana and I really sat

1:15

down together and talked to someone

1:17

. Just that we're excited about and it

1:19

doesn't have anything to do with the festival or anything . So I'm

1:21

excited for that . But I'm also really

1:24

excited because I have

1:26

finally found a place

1:30

that our London

1:32

UK community members

1:34

can practice the technical requirements

1:36

of film and television performance , which I

1:38

feel like I just want to always be able to pick

1:41

and choose and find the

1:43

good places that I can recommend to people

1:45

. I'm excited to find people who

1:47

understand what we're

1:49

trying to do and seem to be aligned

1:51

with it . So today

1:53

I'm very excited to introduce you

1:55

to Daniel Fathers of

1:58

Screen Actors Development Lab

2:00

, london . Hi Daniel , how are you doing

2:02

?

2:03

I'm great . Thank you so much for having me

2:05

on the podcast .

2:07

I want to get people on the radar

2:09

if they know you , because they've seen

2:11

you in everyone's favorite shows . So

2:13

let's do a little bit of throwing out

2:15

some titles here of what they've seen you know him

2:18

from Camp

2:20

Rock that's what I

2:22

wanted to say . Camp

2:24

Rock , house of the Dragon

2:26

, the Witcher , snatch . Let's

2:29

go through all of the really fun stuff Orphan

2:31

Black , which is like Canada

2:33

, 90210 . I'm like

2:35

going through these of like stuff . I love Murdoch Mysteries

2:38

, beautiful People , murder

2:40

in the Hamptons that sounds fun , by the

2:42

way . But

2:44

you've done a like kind of all over the globe

2:46

. You've spanned all of North America

2:49

. You know being born in the UK , moving to Canada

2:51

, then going into , you

2:53

know , la market , then back to London where

2:55

you now reside . That must be

2:58

incredible , because I want to talk to you about what it's

3:00

been like to span

3:02

different countries and act

3:04

in different countries and where you found directors

3:06

differ or actors , like your

3:08

peers , differ in performance , or , or

3:11

I know we're going to talk about mindset , but

3:13

yeah , this is great .

3:14

So I guess the four

3:17

geographies that I've

3:19

worked and lived in , the UK

3:22

, which is its own sort of

3:24

biosphere , and

3:26

obviously Canada , so out

3:28

west as well as in Toronto . So

3:30

, and I did Heartland for CBC

3:33

.

3:33

Oh , there we go .

3:35

Heartland

3:37

. Yeah , I played .

3:38

Oh , my goodness .

3:40

And yeah , so Toronto , and then obviously

3:43

A , and then

3:45

there's sort of the mainland

3:47

Europe , so all of the sort of the

3:49

Balkan countries that are offering

3:52

tax incentives , a bit like

3:54

Canada , is to American

3:56

productions and so a lot of America

3:58

. Most of the work I do right now

4:00

, I mean even House of

4:02

the Dragons , I mean it's mostly , mostly english actors

4:04

, but it's an american product . You know it's hbo

4:07

, witcher , the same thing . You know that's netflix

4:09

, so it's american money . So

4:11

there's a lot of work in in sort

4:14

of europe as well . So , like czech republic

4:16

, romania , this last six

4:20

or seven months I've been shooting

4:22

in italy , hungary

4:24

, serbia . That's

4:26

where we shoot , uh , the arc um

4:29

on for sci-fi . So I yeah

4:31

, so recently . I you know I almost

4:34

feel bad saying this because I know , look , most

4:36

of my tribe , my actors , are not working

4:39

, not making a living , and so I

4:41

had even though you know we've all been

4:43

on strike and the writers

4:45

were on strike and we all support

4:47

it . But there was , there

4:49

were shows that you know , even House of Dragon

4:51

. You know we had dispensations

4:53

from SAG-AFTRA to carry on

4:55

but we couldn't do any rewrites , all

4:57

of that kind of stuff . So yeah , I've actually

5:00

been kind of busy in the last six or seven

5:02

months . I'm on sort of three different shows

5:04

which in itself like

5:06

crying from one country . I mean the champagne problems

5:09

, but whatever that's great .

5:11

I don't think that that's something you need to feel bad

5:13

about or feel like you're flaunting in

5:15

front of anybody . I think that it's

5:17

wonderful and it's so encouraging

5:20

to know that , like it's still

5:22

happening , you know , no , it

5:24

yes , it's slower for a lot of people , a lot

5:26

of people aren't working at all , but it's

5:28

still happening . The work is still happening

5:31

. It will come back , don't worry . There

5:33

are people who are busy , you know

5:35

uh , indy .

5:36

Going back to what you said about the differences

5:38

that there are so many differences

5:40

I had to modulate how

5:42

I audition and how I work

5:45

in the different markets . So

5:47

let's take the UK very quickly . They

5:49

have five or 600

5:52

years of steeped tradition

5:56

in stage

5:58

acting right and all of the

6:00

drama schools . Most

6:02

of them and I'm going to generalize

6:04

there's always exceptions to a rule the

6:07

training for actors is very stage-centric

6:09

. So you're going to get amazing theater

6:12

training at these places , but they don't focus

6:15

on film and TV and the difference

6:17

. Look , I've done theater

6:19

as well . I was in Mamma Mia I don't know if you

6:21

guys know that at the Royal Alex in

6:23

Toronto .

6:23

That is like growing up in Toronto

6:25

, that is like the big one .

6:27

I was in the third cast and approved to

6:29

go down to Broadway when needed

6:32

and it was a fantastic

6:34

430 shows . It was fantastic

6:36

. But you just don't make

6:38

enough money . You can't buy a house

6:41

or send kids to you know , go on holidays

6:43

, bike none of this Right . You've just

6:45

literally got to do it for your art , whereas

6:48

in film and TV you make

6:50

as much in a day , even at minimum

6:52

scale , as you do in a week doing

6:54

slogging eight shows a week and doing

6:57

brush up rehearsals . So anyway , Britain's really steeped

6:59

in that I think , and this is just my opinion . In that I

7:01

think , and this is just my opinion I've probably

7:03

got to get lots of hate mail , but

7:12

I think Hollywood , america , is on the bleeding edge of this industry . It started in Hollywood in

7:14

the twenties or even before that , and I think other countries

7:16

are catching up . But we're , like we've been

7:18

doing self-tapes for 15 years in the States

7:20

simply because of geography

7:22

. Like if you're doing a movie

7:25

in the summer in oklahoma and there's

7:27

a , you know you're up for a series

7:29

lead or a series supporting lead

7:31

on a series that's coming up in the fall

7:33

, well , they're not going to let you fly

7:35

off set . So you we self-tape

7:38

, so we'll found a studio to do it right

7:40

, whereas the brits really

7:42

have just started to embrace

7:44

self tapes and it's really sped

7:46

up since COVID and so

7:48

I do a lot of . Originally , how I started

7:51

mentoring was agents with

7:53

. You know they heard that I was , you know

7:55

, north American actor and that we've been . You

7:57

know I was booking stuff on self tape all

8:00

the time and they would send

8:02

me clients and say , listen , great actor

8:04

, but doesn't know how to self-tape , so can

8:06

you teach them that skill ? And it is just

8:08

like you guys are focusing on the

8:10

technical aspects of filming . Right

8:13

, you know you can take all your scene

8:16

analysis and your character development , but if

8:18

you don't understand the technology of acting

8:20

on camera and being on set and

8:23

also if you can't audition in

8:25

a self-tape , you ain't never going to get

8:27

to set . There's different styles of casting

8:29

. In Toronto they have big studios

8:32

, they have a cameraman , they have an

8:34

actor who's a reader and they've got a monitor

8:37

and a table and even

8:39

a boom mic coming down and most

8:41

of the time it's standing up Really pro-level

8:44

auditioning . When I went down to

8:46

Los Angeles I was expecting that

8:48

and I remember one of my first auditions . I

8:50

can't tell me lies or something like that

8:52

. Some big networks and

8:55

I went to Paramount and then I'm

8:57

in this like tiny little room with

9:00

the video cameras right here and the readers

9:02

.

9:04

A little handy cam with the right

9:08

, the completely different concept

9:10

.

9:10

And until you get to screen tests and then

9:12

you're on , you know you're on set with everybody

9:15

else . Listen , you can go into a casting

9:17

director's house and sit on the couch , and I

9:19

was expecting , you know , in north

9:21

america it's like would you like to stand or would you like

9:23

to sit ? In the uk there's a lot of you

9:25

just sit , even if it's an action and it's clearly

9:28

a right . So

9:30

I had to adjust the way I

9:32

did my auditions . I even actually , at the beginning

9:35

, even though I had a reasonable

9:37

amount of credits in in the

9:39

us and canada , I went to

9:41

casting directors workshops

9:43

just to not to impress them , not

9:45

to get seen , just to figure out

9:47

how , what they look for . In

9:49

addition , because it's completely different

9:52

from from the UK to

9:54

Canada to , you know , new

9:56

York and LA , I feel like that's a good tip

9:58

.

9:58

I think it's like if you move to a new place , because

10:00

I think a lot of actors you know are also constantly

10:03

in motion , I think , or transition , I

10:05

feel like that's a really good tip for you know , when you

10:07

move to a new place , maybe take a local casting

10:09

director class just to get the tidbit of information

10:11

, to hear , like , how things are run , or ask those

10:13

questions , and I think you know the style

10:15

of acting is very different in

10:18

the UK to and again

10:20

I'm generalizing to America .

10:22

You know we come from a very sort

10:24

of method-esque exploration

10:27

while we're filming , you know

10:29

, very Meisner , very reactive

10:32

improv . Of course we're going to keep to

10:34

the text most of the time but

10:36

again , ministers don't you

10:38

know , some of them do , but the British ones because

10:40

they're steeped in stage . It's

10:43

like the play , the words

10:45

are gospel , the director

10:47

is 100 percent in charge . Again

10:50

, theatre lovers are going to go . No , that's

10:52

not the way it is . But in my experience

10:54

the actor is really doesn't

10:57

have so much say in the creative

10:59

aspect and development of the character

11:02

. It's the director's vision aspect

11:04

and development of the character . It's the director's vision , whereas in film , in North

11:06

American I'm going to say North American because

11:08

you know , canadians are pretty damn

11:10

good and a

11:12

lot of American productions are shot

11:14

up on , you know , vancouver

11:19

and Toronto and Montreal and even out East . It's an all encompassing

11:21

collaborative . You know I very

11:24

rarely get acting notes

11:26

from a director who's american

11:28

or on an american . It's like they've

11:31

hired us . We know how to prep a character

11:33

. We'll have a discussion with the director

11:35

and the showrunners and the writers . Maybe if

11:37

the the writers are , you know , have

11:39

enough power , right , if showrunner

11:41

is also the creator and the writer as well , we

11:44

will have discussions about character

11:47

and backstory and motive and that

11:49

, you know , before we film

11:51

. Maybe we'll come in a couple of

11:53

weeks before , and I did that on the Dark

11:55

Tower with Glenn Mazzara . He had all

11:57

the lead cast in and we just went out , we just had meetings and read throughs

11:59

and talked about it . We did that on the Pendragon cycle as well . You know we do that a lot of times

12:01

. But then when we're had meetings and read throughs and talked about it we

12:03

did that on the pendragon cycle as well

12:06

. You know we do that a lot of times . But

12:08

then when we're on set , we're collaborating

12:10

, improving emotionally and

12:12

and working with the dps , right

12:15

. Also , here's the other thing north

12:17

american actors mostly

12:19

understand well , I mean

12:22

not necessarily at the beginning , but

12:24

we understand that it's a different medium

12:26

and therefore the camera

12:28

. We need to understand what the camera does . We

12:31

need to understand what the boom

12:33

and the lav mic does .

12:35

Yeah , contacts yeah .

12:36

And how we can help sound department , how we

12:38

can help the camera operators , how

12:40

you know if we understand framing

12:42

and lighting and movement and marks

12:45

and having both eyes in the

12:47

frame and the use of using . You

12:49

know if we understand framing and lighting

12:52

and movement and marks and having both

12:54

eyes in the frame and

12:56

the use of using . You know the mind and thought , because

12:59

the camera captures thought or actors

13:01

that I mentor , who have stage-centric

13:04

training again , there's always exceptions

13:06

to a rule is

13:09

usually what they do is they come and they give a stage performance , which

13:11

I call it the three Cs . It's contrived

13:14

, calculated . What's the other one ? Oh

13:16

, control , right . I'm going to say it

13:18

this way every time . And then there's

13:20

no room to play . And Meisner-esque play , emotional

13:22

improv right . And then they's no room to play . And Meisner-esque emotional play

13:24

, emotional improv Right . And then they

13:26

try to make it smaller , right . That's

13:29

not what screen acting is , in

13:31

my opinion .

13:32

It's not simply smaller

13:34

. I want to ask you a little bit about

13:37

something you said a moment ago . You mentioned

13:39

that you've noticed you're not

13:41

getting acting notes on

13:43

the day from American , north American

13:46

directors and this is something that I got

13:48

in an argument with someone on a

13:50

different podcast about a week ago

13:53

because it feels like that to me

13:55

too , that the time for acting

13:57

notes , when it comes to North American

14:00

film acting , is before

14:02

the day . Yeah you , you go

14:04

out , you talk , you figure that out before

14:07

you get there , because on the day , the

14:09

director is directing more than

14:11

just the acting 100%

14:14

Do we align on ?

14:15

that 100%

14:17

. You know directors working closely

14:19

with the DP and you

14:21

know on lighting , on framing , you

14:23

know tracking , pulling focus , all of

14:25

that kind of stuff , the visual

14:27

aspect . You know if they have

14:29

to direct the actor to go

14:31

. Oh God , I'm not getting what I need right

14:33

. One we haven't communicated

14:36

and we're not on the same page , so we will

14:38

. I mean , I've been talking leads and supporting

14:40

leads in series . You know people who are

14:42

on set and hopefully you know day players

14:45

. My observation is the director

14:47

well , I welcome to set , okay

14:49

, just so you know they give them a

14:52

quick brief right go and

14:54

then they may have to , but the leads

14:56

not so much . Yeah , it's a collaboration . They know

14:58

what we're doing and we give choices . So

15:02

here's the difference . I've worked with a lot of stage-centric

15:04

trained actors and

15:07

it took me so many years to figure out why

15:09

are they doing this ? I don't understand . I

15:12

went on the show I won't name the actor or the show

15:14

, right , but this

15:16

actor was giving the same

15:18

line , reading on the 30

15:20

different takes , with the white

15:23

, with the two shots , with the coverage

15:25

right , and

15:27

eventually , halfway through

15:30

, I thought , oh , my God , I'm changing , I'm

15:32

trying to anyway , but I also had to

15:34

be authentic to the read that was coming

15:36

across there , and so I just

15:38

stopped in character halfway

15:41

through the scene . And then she went

15:43

like this and I went oh okay

15:45

, now you're present that's

15:48

great .

15:48

That's great . I think . I think what's

15:50

so great is like , and what you guys are

15:52

talking about and what I think from like

15:55

crew side , like cinematography

15:57

side , it's all about the context you

15:59

have in order to make the right decisions on set

16:01

. And so those conversations that you're having in anticipation

16:04

of filming is all context to how

16:06

, when you get involved , you know you've spoken

16:08

to the director and producers , but then you

16:10

get on set and you're working with the crew , you already have

16:12

the context to make the decisions of like , and

16:14

hopefully we're giving you that context too . But it's

16:16

like , oh , they're going , they're probably going to use this

16:19

, like this part in the closeup . So

16:29

I'll reserve that emotion or oh , because I know of the conversations about this character , when we go into

16:32

, like the leading shot , maybe it'll be fun for me to communicate with the operator beforehand that I might actually walk

16:34

past them earlier or I might actually like get a little closer to minimum

16:36

focus than I thought like , than I thought

16:38

I was going to , because the director in prep

16:40

talked to me about this and I'll try that out . But

16:43

I think it's like this nice dance that you're talking

16:45

about of having the context on set in order

16:47

to make the right decisions for a character which is

16:49

great yeah .

16:50

so I make a certain amount

16:52

of decisions of the different ways

16:55

to do it , because if you're going to do it the same way

16:57

, then then that's just . Then

16:59

. What is the editor got to do creatively

17:02

? So here's the other philosophy

17:05

. You , you know the four by 400 relay

17:07

or four by 100 relay . There's a baton

17:09

, and so I feel as though the character

17:12

is the baton , right ? So the

17:14

person that creates the character

17:16

initially is the writer , okay

17:19

. And then they run the first

17:21

bend and then they hand it off to

17:23

a combination of the

17:25

actor and the director , right

17:28

. And then they put layer

17:30

on their stuff of what the character is about

17:32

, and then it's also up to the

17:35

director , and then the editor , right

17:37

. So I think , no , the

17:39

character , the actor , does the back straight , then

17:41

it's the director and the editor , yeah

17:43

.

17:44

This is such an excellent way of seeing

17:47

your crew as a team and knowing what

17:49

which leg is yours , and which

17:51

decisions are going to be yours .

17:53

Yeah , because I can say a hundred

17:55

percent , right . So really , you

17:57

know , and and of course , the camera department

17:59

and sound and production design , they're , they're

18:02

all involved with the , with the shaping

18:04

of the character as well . Of course they are

18:06

. But ultimately , if you're

18:08

giving the same read on every single

18:10

take , doesn't matter what the frame is , what

18:13

the lens is , then the

18:15

editor only has a choice of oh

18:17

, which frame should I cover , her

18:19

or him

18:22

? But if I'm giving them different

18:24

creative choices as well

18:26

faster

18:29

pace , slower pace , you know , more angry

18:31

, whatever , giving different reads

18:33

, glenn Close . So

18:35

she said okay , so film acting

18:37

is actually doing it all sorts of different

18:39

ways because we have the

18:41

luxury of editing , like

18:44

that's the other thing . A lot of actors don't realize

18:46

that we have editing . It's OK

18:48

to screw up . You don't have to have a

18:50

perfect tape from from action

18:53

to cut at 30 , 40

18:55

, 50 times . You know , we're going to take this

18:57

golden moment , this golden moment

18:59

, golden moment here , and we're going to splice

19:01

them together and combined it's going to

19:04

be an amazing scene on

19:06

both sides , right ? So I

19:08

think actors put a lot of pressure . Anyway , I

19:11

digress , you can see I'm passionate I

19:13

love it .

19:14

I now I want to ask you something that I

19:16

think hayley told me before our call today

19:18

do you believe actors who

19:20

want to be solely film and TV

19:22

actors need or require

19:25

drama school ?

19:25

100% , not no .

19:27

Great . Instead of drama school , what

19:29

would you recommend or how would

19:31

you define learning the craft from an

19:33

education standpoint ? Where should an actor

19:35

who's listening kind of begin

19:38

, if they're like maybe I want to take

19:40

this route and not do drama school ?

19:41

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20:34

So a lot of the child actors learn

20:37

the job on set . You

20:39

know , I was a child actor originally but and

20:42

you know , and obviously doing Camp Rock I

20:44

worked with , it was just me and a bunch of kids

20:46

really super , ridiculously

20:48

talented , professional young

20:50

people . First of all , young young

20:52

actors have no fear they

20:55

, they just it's , they're still playing

20:57

. They don't understand failure

20:59

or screw ups , whereas we we learned

21:02

that as adults . So that applies

21:04

pressure to adults , whereas kids don't have that

21:06

. They go well , they just fun

21:08

and they go for it . Yeah , right . And

21:11

over the years they learn the

21:13

craft right on set . So you can

21:15

have a look at lots of actors

21:17

in Hollywood that have done that . So

21:20

let's say you're not a child

21:22

actor , you didn't learn that . So you've got

21:24

a choice . Do I go to university

21:27

, college or drama school to

21:30

learn my craft ? First of all , I'd say

21:32

where are you going to go and what

21:34

do you want to learn ? They're a different

21:36

medium . So do you want to be a theater actor

21:38

or do you want to potentially buy a house

21:40

one day ? One

21:48

day , yeah , and make that decision now . Those are your options , right ? You want to do it for the love

21:50

of the art or do you actually want to make a living ? Look , drama schools , especially in the uk

21:52

, are very stage centric . They're

21:54

starting to do a little

21:57

bit of uh , film and

21:59

screen , and but nowhere

22:01

near what we do in north

22:03

america . I mean , look , look , I

22:05

started studying film acting

22:07

with David Rodenberg in 1999

22:11

, and we already had a two-camera

22:13

, you know , on rolly tripods

22:16

sound , and then he

22:18

would splice it into a VHS that's

22:20

how old I am and we would watch

22:22

it on the screen . He said

22:24

we're watching it on the screen because that's

22:26

where the performance is , it's not

22:29

to the people in this room

22:31

, right ? So that goes to another

22:33

question of you know what's the right

22:36

level of performance ? And I

22:38

think it's this it's distance

22:40

and audience awareness . Those are the two

22:42

differentiation . So distance

22:45

of me portraying what my character

22:47

is either saying or feeling on

22:50

theater has to travel to

22:52

the furthest paying

22:54

audience member .

22:56

Yeah .

22:56

Right . So the top of the house ? Right

22:59

, they might not be paying , you know , 250

23:01

bucks per ticket , they may only

23:04

be paying 50 , but God damn it

23:06

, they paid money to come and see me . So

23:09

it has to travel that far . Okay

23:11

, in a camera , and I love asking

23:14

actors this so what's

23:16

the right level of performance

23:18

for a screen

23:20

? And they said well . Some of them say well

23:22

, between you know the distance between me

23:25

and the camera . I went , well , between you know the distance between me and the camera . I went oh , ok

23:27

, interesting . Or the distance between

23:29

me and the microphone . I go , oh , interesting

23:31

, ok . So have you seen the shot

23:33

in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

23:35

where we go like that and we pan

23:37

out and the camera is actually a

23:39

mile away , on the other side of the Grand

23:42

Canyon ? Well , you know , paul

23:44

Newman and Robert Redford are not , you

23:52

know , having their voice and their performance to that . What's the level with

23:54

each other ? That's it . That's all you need to know . What is the appropriate level between

23:57

me and the other character

23:59

, the actor I'm talking to , and it

24:01

doesn't have to be quiet . You

24:04

and I could be facing each other a yard

24:06

away and I could be screaming

24:08

at you and we could be in a like in a

24:10

postage right

24:13

100 . So

24:15

it's got nothing to do with the microphone , nothing

24:17

to do with with the , the framing

24:19

, whatever it's what's appropriate in the moment

24:21

of the character between me and who

24:23

I'm talking to . That's it . You

24:25

remember that . Then you're going to modulate

24:28

your performance correctly for the camera

24:30

.

24:30

Yeah .

24:31

Would you agree with that ?

24:32

I would agree . I mean , it's great actually , I

24:35

think because it allows

24:37

you and I think you know , when we started CFA

24:39

, we had a lot of people be like a lot of directors

24:42

and actors be like this is unnecessary

24:44

is unnecessary or well . I don't want my

24:46

actors to have to worry about it . And I think

24:48

this answers the question of like if

24:51

, as long as you have the context for how decisions

24:53

are made , you don't , you can toss away

24:55

that context and focus more on the performance

24:57

between two characters in front of the lens , with you and your scene

24:59

. You're not worrying , you're

25:02

just being informed

25:04

yeah because I think then , at the end of the day

25:07

, you're able to capture that performance and

25:09

if you need that context , you can switch

25:11

it on without having to to get outside

25:13

of the character that you're you're in at that moment

25:15

. So that's great yeah , the focus

25:18

.

25:18

You're always going to be in character anyway

25:20

, but it's almost . You've got

25:22

to have an unconscious consciousness

25:25

if , if , that makes sense . I think

25:27

Tony Hopkins . Sir Anthony Hopkins

25:29

said that you've

25:31

got to have an unconscious consciousness , so

25:33

we have to be conscious of

25:36

where the camera is , where my

25:38

mark is , but it

25:40

can't be captured by the camera

25:42

as me being conscious , so I have

25:44

to be almost unconscious of its

25:46

presence .

25:47

Yeah , this is , this is great .

25:49

And it's hard when you've got a steadicam

25:51

operator flipping around

25:53

and he or she is walking backwards

25:56

and you know somebody who's got the cable

25:58

or whatever and they're bumping into right

26:00

and it's that , that tango

26:02

. But we have the luxury of editing , so

26:04

yeah , if we make a mistake , it's

26:06

fine yeah , I almost want to pull

26:08

out my um .

26:10

the the conscious unconsciousness

26:12

and unconscious consciousness are

26:14

a part of the tibetan book of the dead

26:16

. It's like written in at the beginning for how to like

26:18

accept people as they pass um and

26:20

how to like let people not feel guilty

26:22

for passing . But it talks about

26:24

the two mindsets of those things of

26:27

in reverse , and I almost want to pull

26:29

it out because I remember highlighting it years ago when I

26:31

read it and I know it's in the other room , but I love

26:33

that , no , and it comes up a lot in

26:35

conversation sometimes and so

26:37

I'm glad it came up today . That's great .

26:39

Yeah , and to finish the second

26:42

half of the question , I think three questions

26:44

ago , like where should they go to get trained

26:46

, I would say look , go

26:48

and take screen acting classes

26:50

.

26:51

Screen actors development

26:53

lab .

26:57

Oh well , yeah , yeah , but I do , I

27:01

mentor and I focus on that and I do it . My

27:03

motive for doing I didn't never wanted

27:06

to teach or coach because

27:08

I my preconceived ideas

27:10

of acting coaches were failed

27:13

actors and I did never want it to be

27:15

perceived as a failed actor

27:17

. That's question right . So

27:19

now I'm gonna preface

27:21

this . But my preconceived

27:23

idea I had found out was wrong

27:26

. So and I'll tell you why so

27:28

I started doing this under the

27:30

radar , embarrassed

27:32

. I don't want anybody to know I'm coaching , but I do

27:34

want to be spiritual and help my

27:36

fellow travelers and and share

27:38

with them how I work

27:41

. It doesn't mean that I'm you know , it might

27:43

work for you , it might not , but this is how I work

27:45

and and how I doapes and how

27:47

I prepare , blah , blah , blah . And so

27:49

agents kept sending me clients

27:51

Can you teach them this ? I went , okay , but don't tell anyone

27:54

, right . And

27:56

then I came across a prospectus

27:58

for the Guildhall School of Music

28:00

and Drama . It was a master's level

28:03

postgraduate certificate in

28:05

performance pedagogy , the

28:07

science of learning and teaching

28:09

, and it said we're looking for

28:12

experienced performers

28:14

musicians , actors , dancers , et cetera

28:16

, singers who are

28:19

teaching , and we want to teach you how

28:21

to teach and share your

28:23

experiential wisdom

28:25

in a modern pedagogy way . So

28:28

, and I was doing the Dark Tower

28:31

, I was sort of I had a five year option

28:33

, so we were filming for six months , six

28:35

months off , and and I

28:37

actually did my essay a

28:39

master's level so they wanted to know

28:42

that I could write a master's level

28:44

sort of thesis , dissertation , whatever . So

28:46

, uh , I did that while I was on set

28:48

at the dark tower in Croatia , after

28:54

work everybody went out for dinner and I'm

28:56

like in my hotel room like reading papers

28:59

and stuff you're like I can write

29:02

a .

29:03

Yeah , I can do it while I'm full

29:05

time on set somewhere else . Right

29:07

, no I do that , actors , actors .

29:10

Anyway . So I did that for a year and it really

29:12

helped me be able to transfer

29:15

my experience and

29:17

knowledge in a more effective way

29:19

. So learning was more effective

29:21

. And then I came across . Do you know Matthew

29:23

Del Negro ? No , I've known him

29:25

. He has a book . He's an American actor . I highly

29:28

rate him . He's a very cool guy

29:30

and I would say he's

29:32

probably at my level actor

29:34

, maybe even a little higher

29:36

kind of projects he's worked on or whatever

29:38

. And he started mentoring and having

29:41

this thing it's called 10,000

29:43

No's , so have a look at that . And

29:45

it's all about resilience Keep going

29:47

and learning from the growth mindset

29:49

, learning from the failures . And I went oh

29:52

okay , actually this guy's not

29:54

afraid to step out

29:56

and say , yeah , I'm teaching , I'm a successful

29:58

actor , but I'm reframing

30:01

it , I'm mentoring and I'm guiding

30:03

. And I started thinking about this . We've

30:07

been doing this as human beings for 300,000

30:09

years , since we were Homo sapiens , the

30:11

old , grizzled warriors , you

30:13

know , teach the young up

30:15

and coming warriors how to hunt

30:17

, how to build , how to

30:19

forage . We've been sharing

30:22

our knowledge to the younger generations

30:24

. So why can't I do that in acting

30:26

Right ? And if , if

30:28

casting directors or whoever say , well , he's

30:30

a fail , that really will have a

30:33

nominated . I'm an actor nominated

30:35

, I've won an award , you know , yeah

30:37

, reasonably credible stuff

30:39

. I don't think I'm a failed actor

30:41

, right , I'm not a paylister , but

30:43

and I've been around for decades , so

30:46

and I want to virtually share

30:48

and help and fast

30:51

track these for the stuff that

30:53

I've noticed that because I've I've

30:55

worked with a lot of undergrads that

30:57

come out of trauma schools or

30:59

whatever , and they're on set

31:01

with me and they don't know what , they don't know

31:03

the terminology , of course

31:05

, yelling them , they don't know what first

31:07

position means or they don't know okay , turn

31:09

around , let's do coverage . They were like

31:11

, and so I'm mentoring a lot of

31:14

them on set with it's okay , coverage

31:16

, turn around .

31:17

Okay , now we're turning around on you , yeah

31:19

this moment is so

31:21

painful too for an actor

31:23

who's just it happened to me who's just graduated

31:26

. You graduate drama school

31:28

and you believe you're ready . You've

31:30

been told you're ready , you do

31:32

everything you know

31:35

you're supposed to do , and then you show up and

31:37

you find out it was the wrong

31:39

education , it wasn't what

31:41

you needed . It's

31:50

so painful and you feel so alone and so scared and so trapped and uneducated after you just did

31:52

all of this work to figure out how to be an

31:54

actor . So I mean , thank

31:56

goodness you're there .

31:59

Yeah , well , I think people have to investigate

32:02

what it means to be a

32:04

professional actor . What skills do I

32:06

need ? What knowledge do I need ? And they

32:08

really need this . People are just

32:10

like , oh , I want to be an actor and it's

32:12

like they're from the Walking Dead zombie

32:15

, I need to go to drama school .

32:17

And they don't even question because they stars

32:19

who .

32:19

I went to this drama school Okay

32:22

, Every star . I've met 10 actors

32:25

who are now doing regular

32:27

job , whatever .

32:28

Yeah .

32:29

They ended up actually not making it not

32:31

being very good . I've worked with and seen

32:34

tons of you know and I'm not

32:36

saying I'm not poo-pooing drama schools

32:38

. I want to know , yeah right , especially

32:41

if you're going to be a stage actor . Absolutely

32:43

it's going to be great screen

32:45

it's different . So where do you go ? You go to

32:47

screen acting classes in los angeles

32:49

, new york , whatever , even atlanta . Wherever

32:52

you come from Toronto , vancouver there's

32:55

some awesome screen acting

32:57

, like we've got to learn the modern

32:59

craft . The craft has changed

33:02

even since I've been in the industry

33:04

25 , 30 . How fast . When

33:06

I started , we were on film . There was

33:08

, and it was very expensive , and

33:11

the turnarounds and the setups were

33:13

took forever . Now

33:15

it's digital and and the the cameras

33:18

are adjusted to lighting . It's like , yeah

33:20

, there's only 10 minutes . Well , yeah , we

33:22

finished the , the setup .

33:23

So , yeah , hurry up quick yeah , and I

33:26

mean lighting too . I mean , even

33:28

lighting has changed . So instead of feeling the

33:30

heat from a light to know that you're in the light

33:32

, now it it's LED technology , where

33:34

you know , and the cameras are so sensitive that

33:37

you're barely being lit .

33:38

Or if you have to be able to know how to see

33:40

that light bouncing off your own skin like

33:42

you can't just feel it , you have to like see

33:45

if you want to use it you know if you

33:47

want to use it for a specific reason I

33:49

think the best actors I , I , I

33:51

watch and admire the best actors

33:53

that I have worked with and

33:55

had the privilege of .

33:57

They understand the entire process

33:59

of filmmaking they understand

34:01

lenses and I'm

34:03

always talking to the camera operator

34:06

yeah , great what lens we want

34:08

, like where am I framed ? Can you flip

34:10

the monitor around ? Because it's a visual

34:12

medium . I need feedback , I need to know

34:14

what you guys are seeing so that

34:16

I can modulate to what I'm doing

34:18

and giving the camera . Give the camera

34:20

, yes , and that's a dream .

34:22

For me that's like a dream scenario . You know

34:24

, the actors that I've been lucky to

34:26

work with , who you know are

34:28

very aware of you know they

34:31

hear me saying , okay , we're going to swap to 35

34:33

, they know what that means and they know how

34:35

to use that space , or not use that space

34:37

but use it for a real like

34:39

a way , because they understand frame size

34:42

or have that conversation with the operator

34:44

of like . When I get up , I'm going to be doing this

34:46

, you know , or that how was my speed

34:48

there ? Do , and then , or we're having

34:50

that conversation . But I think , just like the collaborative

34:53

aspect of filmmaking , like my

34:55

department's collaborative and but you're

34:57

the ones , as actors , making it happen

34:59

, you're the ones that we're filming , and so it should . You

35:02

know , we should all be collaborative and I think the

35:04

crew when you know crew

35:06

is not taught that actors don't know this stuff and

35:08

that they have to learn it by doing . And

35:10

then the majority of actors I mean I mean in Los Angeles

35:13

and probably London as well , but I don't

35:15

work in that area so I can't really speak to it but they

35:17

don't get the opportunity to be on set and learn

35:19

, because they're terrified when they start getting on set

35:22

, that they just want to do a good job and make sure that

35:24

they're not like they're out of the way and they're not out

35:26

of like line . And so it's

35:28

unfortunate , because I think that there's this like miscommunication

35:31

between departments that's happening constantly

35:33

, and so that's why I'm always like I love

35:35

seeing our community work with each

35:37

other and grow together , because that's how

35:40

they learn to collaborate on set , especially

35:42

if they're learning with a new director or

35:44

they're meeting at a networking event , a community building

35:46

event , and being like we should shoot like

35:48

a spec sometime or we should shoot this sometime . And

35:50

I think that's the best education is put yourself

35:52

on the set as much as possible , whether

35:54

that's background and just seeing and

35:56

observing and watching , or whether

35:58

that's hey , I really want to shoot this scene

36:01

. I'm inspired by this scene . I know you want to be a DP

36:03

and you're starting . You just got a camera . I know that

36:05

person has a camera . Do you want to like shoot something this weekend

36:07

? Because , like , at the end of the day , you want to be on

36:09

set , like put yourself on set , um

36:12

, and it doesn't , don't put money into it , just

36:14

like use your phone if you need to . But actors

36:17

are creating more stuff now , like more

36:19

than ever their own content , and I

36:21

think there's such a success in that because when

36:23

they get on to someone else's project , whether

36:25

smaller or large , they

36:27

have the context to make those decisions and the comfortability

36:30

to communicate on set , which is just great

36:32

.

36:32

A hundred percent and I started making

36:35

short films and with a

36:37

DP , a friend of mine , and

36:40

it's just . I'm just approaching it as

36:42

a learning experience and , to

36:44

be honest , don't tell anyone but I'm

36:46

actually loving the cinematography

36:48

and the directing . The

36:50

acting is a bit of a chore , it's like oh yeah

36:53

I get it yeah it's so fun

36:55

and exciting and new right

36:57

I'm watching movies

36:59

and whatever it is and sitting

37:01

with my wife going oh , what a great shot

37:03

. Do you see the light , the shot , composition

37:06

? And she's going what ? What are you talking about ?

37:07

yeah , totally you can't get out . Yeah

37:10

, now you know , you know . I'm hooked

37:12

on light composition

37:14

and framing and yeah this

37:17

is great right

37:19

, this is great news , yeah , so .

37:20

Daniel , now let's talk about how

37:23

you are going about teaching

37:25

us young actors how

37:27

to hunt . Let's talk about your studio

37:30

and your format and how everyone can find

37:32

you when they're if they're based in London .

37:34

Yeah , ok , super . So I'm on Instagram

37:37

. It's absolutely tiny , I just started it

37:39

so it's called Screen Actors

37:41

Development Lab . So I modeled

37:43

it a little like

37:45

the Professionals Actors Lab in

37:47

Toronto . So David Rodenberg and

37:50

we always would do scenes and

37:53

we'd shoot them and then we would look at them

37:55

and he would talk about the business

37:57

and what it means to be an actor and all

37:59

of that kind of stuff . I don't have a big website

38:02

. I don't have like big marketing because , yeah

38:04

, we tape them and then we talk about

38:07

you know different ways of doing it and what's

38:09

going on and all of the sort of

38:11

the training and the teaching that I've

38:13

learned from David as well . As you know

38:15

Meissner-esque and a bit of Stanislavski

38:17

and Strasberg or you know all of the traditional

38:20

practitioners but modern day . And

38:22

then I also incorporate what

38:24

you guys focus on on

38:26

the technical aspect . You know eye

38:28

lines and you know don't hang . You know when you've got your cell phone . You know eye lines and you

38:30

know don't hang . You know when you , when you've got your cell

38:33

phone , you know , yes , this is

38:35

natural . But what are you looking at ? I'm looking at

38:37

exactly .

38:39

Yeah , we have a whole class on that because

38:42

, I'm like yeah , because

38:44

what you're looking down at is not

38:46

what the camera's looking up at you know it's just

38:48

, it's not , it's yeah , it's great .

38:50

I talk about the technical aspects of

38:52

filming and great

38:54

, and the mindset as well beautiful

38:56

, yeah we're gonna do a collaboration

38:59

.

38:59

I know it . I'm very excited about this . I like

39:01

think on the horizon we

39:03

will be doing a collab , because I think I

39:06

think we bring in like a lot of the technical

39:08

and the like community building and like

39:11

collaborating aspect and and I

39:13

think you do the exact same , but you even

39:15

bring in more from like the , the actor

39:17

experience , like Haley , of just like , yeah

39:19

, what is the physical action of drinking

39:22

? Look like on camera , how am I interpreting

39:24

that ? Like where ? How am I remembering to do that

39:26

? Like just the at every day

39:28

becoming a part of the camera process . So I'm really

39:30

excited about about that . Um

39:32

, daniel , thank you so much for joining us

39:34

on an episode of this podcast we're going to link to all

39:37

of and I'm so happy it's saddle I used to

39:39

be a rodeo cowboy .

39:40

I used to be oh yeah

39:43

, and have a horse ranch and train

39:45

horses oh yeah so

39:47

I wanted something that was memorable

39:49

. And also there's the 100%

39:52

yeah .

39:54

I love that it's saddled . Daniel Fathers

39:56

, you know him from the rodeo .

39:58

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