0:10

Hello, I'm Bryony Worthington and

0:12

this is Cleaning Up. My

0:15

guest this week is one of those people where the

0:17

more you get to know them, the more or inspiring

0:19

they become. Bonnie Simme

0:21

is the operations executive at Joby

0:23

Aviation, but her life story is

0:25

equally as fascinating as the electric aircraft she's now

0:27

working to get to market in 2025. Air

0:32

travel may be considered a sticky

0:34

customer of fossil fuels, but Joby

0:36

are focused on scaling quiet, clean,

0:38

pilot-driven aircraft that can initially replace

0:40

helicopters, creating a new regulatory

0:42

environment as they go. We

0:45

should also mention that Cleaning Up sponsors

0:47

Capricorn Investment are early investors, but

0:50

now please join me in welcoming Bonnie Simme

0:52

to Cleaning Up. Before

0:54

we start, if you're enjoying Cleaning

0:57

Up, please make sure that you like,

0:59

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1:53

Bonnie, it's so good to see you and I'm

1:55

so delighted you were able to join us today.

1:58

I wanted to ask you the first question. question which

2:00

is the obvious one, could you just introduce yourself

2:02

in your own words and tell us what you

2:05

do and why? Sure, so

2:07

I'm Bonnie Simi and I'm

2:09

president of operations for Jobe Aviation

2:12

and think of that in two types of

2:14

operations. One, the air

2:16

operation, so pilots, mechanics, training, that

2:19

sort of thing, as well as

2:21

company operations. So thinking HR, facilities,

2:23

safety, security, sustainability. So that's the

2:25

kind of the portfolio that I'm

2:28

leaning on and very much

2:30

looking towards going to market. Amazing,

2:32

and we're going to dig into what

2:34

Jobe is. But first I wanted to

2:36

ask you as a leader to tell

2:38

us a bit about your back story

2:40

because it's such a fascinating back story,

2:42

right? Olympiad, athlete, and then an

2:44

airline pilot. So could you just tell us a

2:47

little bit about those early years and what got

2:49

you interested in aviation? Sure,

2:51

well I was, as a young kid,

2:54

my mother was an elementary school teacher and she

2:56

couldn't afford babysitters. So she would bring us to

2:58

the local airport while she graded papers and

3:00

us little kids would watch airplanes take off on

3:02

land. And I thought, wow, that

3:04

looks so exciting. And it was at a local,

3:07

a general aviation small airplane. And I said, someday

3:09

I want to fly one of those. And I

3:11

was like five years old or something.

3:14

And I did not think of it as a career because,

3:17

well, there weren't women doing it and I didn't think,

3:19

well, women can't do it. It

3:22

just didn't occur to me. And

3:25

so later as I got

3:27

into high school, we

3:29

had to make a list of life goals. And

3:32

I always say you have to have a dream for

3:34

a dream to come true. So I wrote down a

3:37

couple of goals and it happened to be during the

3:39

Olympic year. So one of the things I wrote down

3:41

is I wanted to be a pilot because I remembered

3:43

my five-year-old self and I wanted to

3:45

be an Olympian. And so those

3:47

are the, you know, and I wanted to go to a

3:49

good college and I wanted to do a broadcast journalism. So

3:52

these are a few things. So off I go

3:54

to college and I ended

3:57

up majoring in broadcast journalism because I was a

3:59

pilot. So it was kind of in my mind, as

4:02

well as some engineering. It was kind of this interesting mix.

4:05

I graduated, started working at

4:07

a local TV station, and

4:09

I also discovered

4:12

the sport of luge during that.

4:14

So I progressed up through the

4:16

Olympics, competed in three Olympics.

4:18

So hang on, you discovered luge. How do

4:20

you discover luge? Good question,

4:23

yes. So like

4:25

I said, I'm a person that

4:27

sets goals, and they could be

4:29

different goals, but I'm always kind of heading towards a

4:31

North Star. And I

4:34

was thinking I would go to the

4:36

Olympics in field hockey, because I was

4:38

at a college scholarship for that. But

4:41

I happened to see an ad in

4:43

Runner's World, a magazine, about becoming

4:46

a torchbearer for the Olympics in

4:48

Lake Placid, New York in 1980.

4:51

And I thought, well, that sounds really fun. And

4:54

so it was an essay contest. So

4:56

I wrote an essay, and there

4:58

were 50, one from every state,

5:01

plus Lake Placid in DC, so a total of 52.

5:05

And we relayed the flame up

5:07

to Lake Placid. And there, I

5:09

saw all of the events.

5:12

We were decoration, a little torches, opening

5:14

ceremony, and closing ceremony, and a free

5:16

pass to everything. So I watched hockey.

5:19

I watched speed skating. And I

5:21

watched bobsled. And

5:23

I said to somebody, I want to do bobsled.

5:26

And they said, no, women aren't

5:28

allowed to bobsled. They're banned from

5:30

the international. Why is

5:32

that? Oh, no, no. It's too tough

5:35

of a sport for women, they said. Now, remember

5:37

that one. And so there's

5:39

somebody who can do luge. So I

5:41

went over and checked it out. What is the

5:43

difference? Bobsled is where you sit in

5:46

a sled and you drive it. So it's actually

5:48

a pilot. And then you have people who push

5:50

and jump in. So that's

5:52

bobsledding. It's kind of a car, a foot

5:54

of fun on skids. And

5:56

a luge is where you're on your back feet

5:59

first. going down the hill both

6:01

go around 85 to 90 miles an hour the

6:04

luge it's just you and

6:06

you're lying on your back and the sled actually

6:08

is more steerable than the bobsled but that's a

6:10

it's the same track same ice track same same

6:12

speeds yeah a lot of fun so a lot

6:15

of fun i got into it and about

6:18

four years later maybe a lucky thing that

6:20

makes it sound very easy i'm

6:23

sure it wasn't easy but obviously

6:25

you you had this kind of

6:27

you were drawn to yes but

6:29

many people would say would be

6:31

quite high adrenaline kind of quite

6:33

scary i like challenge i like

6:35

doing challenging things

6:38

that i believe can come true so things that

6:40

i believe in but if

6:42

they're too easy they're not they're not worth doing

6:45

so to me this was uh this was

6:47

a child the olympics or something uh challenging

6:51

and and luge was it looks

6:53

very scary and yes you know

6:55

you do need some um a

6:57

good set of nerves uh because

6:59

the sled itself has no shock

7:01

absorbers the only shock absorbers is

7:03

your is your body and so

7:05

if you if you're relaxed the

7:07

sled goes fast and is also

7:09

steers true if you're stiff and

7:11

scared the sled um doesn't steer

7:13

as well and you can crash so you know some

7:15

of those things is all you have to fear is fear itself

7:18

uh so that really helped me as i you know

7:20

i spent 12 years doing that spread it over three

7:22

olympics and it really helped ingrain some

7:25

of how i think as a person is leaning

7:27

into those challenges wow and i in

7:29

the middle of that i also helped

7:32

women's bob sled get into the

7:34

olympics in 2002 because we

7:36

campaigned heavily women should have

7:39

equal opportunities uh and

7:41

uh we ended up winning gold

7:43

medals uh the u.s um winning

7:45

gold medals i ended up just missing the team

7:48

i was an alternate but it

7:50

was fun to be part of that

7:52

whole journey and now it's very established

7:54

within the olympic community men's and women's

7:56

bobsled and what that tells me about

7:58

your character is that you you

8:00

don't just see the world and think, oh right,

8:02

that's the way the world is. You think, that's

8:04

wrong, I'm going to try and fix that and

8:06

make the world different, right? You have that sense

8:08

of agency. Yes, I think that to me, the

8:11

world is a wonderful place. There's

8:14

always things to improve, there's

8:16

always new hills to climb,

8:19

there's always new people to touch. And

8:22

so I think about the future

8:24

a lot, and I think about, and it goes

8:26

back to my mom, when I

8:29

came home from school one day and I said,

8:31

mom, I'm going to be an Olympian. She

8:34

didn't say, now honey, we

8:36

don't have money and you're a high

8:39

school athlete, but the Olympics are a

8:41

long way away. She didn't say any

8:43

of that. She said, okay, then

8:45

how are you going to do it? And

8:48

I'm like, okay, how am I

8:50

going to do it? And I started making these

8:52

steps and making these journeys. And every step, if

8:54

it's a step in the right direction, it's a

8:57

step closer to your goal. And

8:59

so even if the goal seems so

9:01

far out there and impossible, if

9:04

you keep driving in the right direction,

9:06

it gets closer and closer. And soon,

9:08

soon not only do you believe it

9:10

can happen, but others can too. And

9:13

when you get that ecosystem of others

9:15

believing in what you're doing, or

9:17

this journey, it helps magnify

9:19

and it just kind of gets its own engine.

9:21

And quite frankly, you

9:24

can imagine a lot of these parallels in currently

9:26

what I'm doing now, to the company that I

9:28

work for and the world that we wish to

9:30

change and all of that. Yeah, exactly, which we're

9:32

going to go on to. But first, we have

9:34

to talk about then you becoming a pilot, like

9:36

a commercial pilot. So if you pick a box

9:38

of Olympian and then the next goal,

9:41

right, is there one pilot? Well, it was pilot.

9:43

So, yes, one of my goals was to be

9:45

an Olympian and

9:49

to be a broadcast journalist. So

9:52

I became a journalist for Olympics

9:54

and also local television. And

9:56

I'm like, okay, now I'm earning a little

9:59

bit of money. And it

10:01

turned out the weatherman of the TV station was a

10:03

pilot. And I said, well, how

10:05

do I become a pilot? And he said, well, you

10:08

just need to go to the local airport and

10:10

take three lessons. And I said, three

10:13

lessons? You become a pilot? He's like, no. Three

10:16

lessons, and then you will know if you

10:18

want to become a pilot. Right. Right

10:21

now it's just an idea. And you need to

10:23

see, is this something that really, and

10:25

if it captures you, you'll really lean into it. OK.

10:28

So I went to the local airport. I

10:30

didn't know anything about airplanes. They had wings. They

10:33

had propellers. And that's pretty much all I knew. So

10:36

I showed up and flew in a little Cessna 152, which

10:39

is a very small two-seater airplane. It

10:41

was so fascinating. And

10:43

it didn't take three lessons. Literally after my

10:46

first lessons, I've got to do this. I've got to do

10:48

this. So I progressed

10:50

very quickly. I couldn't

10:52

think of anything else. That was what I

10:54

was doing. I'd work, and then I was

10:56

doing sports. And then right away, it's every

10:58

spare moment. I got my

11:00

private pilot's license in six weeks. And

11:03

then I thought, well, you're not truly

11:06

safe unless you have an instrument rating, which so

11:09

you can fly in the clouds. And I

11:11

said, so I progressed, and I got

11:13

my instrument rating. And then

11:15

I ran out of money. Well, that

11:17

was fun. But

11:20

the flight school, again, this is where

11:22

that ecosystem, I tell you, is really

11:24

important. So they saw how passionate I

11:26

was. And all of

11:28

the flight instructors were men, and they wanted

11:30

a female flight instructor. And they said, we

11:33

will allow you to run up a tab.

11:36

So basically, just a credit, if you will,

11:39

if you will become a flight instructor.

11:41

So I then moved through

11:43

the ratings, and I became a commercial pilot

11:46

and a flight instructor. And I figured, OK,

11:48

I'm going to do that as my hobby. And then

11:50

I'm a TV reporter, and life is good. I

11:54

don't sit still very easily. And

11:57

I remember this day, and the news

11:59

director called me from the TV station and

12:01

I wasn't planning to come into it that day,

12:03

I think it was a Saturday, and

12:06

he says, Bonnie it's a Sloaneese day, we need

12:08

you to come in. You know I did sports

12:10

and recreation, which is stiller, right? We need you

12:12

to come in and do some stories. And

12:15

I was going to flight instructor all that day and I

12:17

would make five times as much as

12:19

a TV reporter today versus a flight instructor. And

12:22

I realized I did not want to go into the TV

12:24

station. So I said, I need

12:27

to follow my heart. And

12:29

that was my boss, so I did go in. I did

12:32

cancel the students, but I've had never to do that again. And

12:34

I gradually pivoted towards building

12:36

experience for the airlines. So and

12:40

then when I got, I did, you know,

12:42

you have to become a

12:44

pilot, there's a lot of experience required. It

12:46

took a couple years and I became a corporate

12:49

pilot, flying bigger and bigger planes. And

12:51

then I went to United Airlines. So and

12:54

I when I got hired there, I went to the news director

12:56

and said, I'm, I'm leaving. He

12:58

says, what are they paying you? What do you

13:00

like actually to pay cut? I'm following my heart.

13:03

I'm following my heart. You have to follow

13:05

your heart because if you love what you

13:07

do, you never work a day in your

13:09

life. No, that's right. So I really wanted

13:12

to become a pilot. Now

13:14

say how many women pilot were working

13:16

for United in these days? Like you

13:18

must be one of a very small

13:20

number. Yeah, the industry was there

13:22

was 2% of pilots

13:24

were female at that time. So I was not the

13:27

first there were women decades

13:29

before me, but still very,

13:31

very few. And so,

13:34

you know, passengers would be

13:36

shocked and ever and eventually as I became a

13:38

captain, then occasionally I'd have a female

13:40

co pilot, right? And so then we you know, the

13:42

the C2. So it wasn't all that

13:45

unusual to me to have for, for, for

13:47

customers still them getting used to women.

13:49

But I said to people, you know,

13:52

the airplane doesn't know if you're a male or female. So anyway,

13:56

I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed doing

13:59

that. The industry still is

14:01

a challenge for women. There are, it's

14:03

been three decades since I started, so

14:06

I've been at three decades, and we've

14:08

tripled to 6%. Six

14:11

percent. But you know, well, twice

14:13

we'll come back to this at the end, but there are

14:16

so many benefits of that job that make it hard for

14:18

women. Yeah, but that's where, you know, just

14:20

so many reasons why it's leading into why I'm

14:22

here at JOBY, there's some ways

14:25

that we can solve that, and I'm

14:28

very excited about how we're diversifying aviation

14:30

too. Right. Brilliant. Okay. So,

14:32

right. So, you can go forward to today. So, well,

14:34

actually, there's another step, isn't there? So, while you're

14:36

at United, you then move to JetBlue,

14:39

and at JetBlue, you start to become

14:41

involved in finance, right, or investments, right?

14:43

Yeah, so I went from

14:46

United Airlines to JetBlue, which

14:48

was a company that

14:50

was an airline. It

14:53

had just gone public. Still

14:55

a fairly small startup that just went public, and

14:57

I thought, I want to be part of something

14:59

new. And JetBlue wanted to, they called

15:01

it, bring humanity back

15:03

to travel, just make it very friendly, and it

15:05

was a different style and a different brand. And

15:08

I wanted to fly, but I

15:11

wanted to do more too. And so that, at JetBlue,

15:13

I think that's the opportunity. Yeah, because why would this

15:15

just fly, you know? So,

15:18

once again, I went from, I took a big

15:20

takeout, I went from senior captain to junior first

15:22

officer. People thought I was crazy. And

15:25

I said, well, I won't know if I'm crazy until

15:27

the day I retire. We'll see how this journey goes.

15:29

So the journey's gone quite well. So

15:32

I spent about 15 years

15:34

in a variety of roles in

15:37

the operations, you know, airport operations,

15:39

system operations, call center operations, and

15:41

then I did a stint

15:43

in HR, which I also love. It's

15:45

developing people, it's talent. So I was

15:47

VP of talent, loved that. And

15:50

then was asked to set up the

15:54

corporate venture capital firm for JetBlue

15:56

for us to invest in travel. Basically,

16:00

I was sort of known as an

16:02

innovation person at the company and they said, Honey, how do

16:04

we stay innovative? And I said,

16:06

the best way to stay innovative and really see

16:08

where the future is going to be is

16:11

to have a seat at the table at startups because

16:14

the startups are predicting the future. And

16:17

that way you can see where it's going. And

16:20

so, well, they said, well, how do we do that? And I

16:22

said, well, we need to invest in corporate venture. And

16:25

they said, well, how do we do that? And I

16:27

said, here's how you do it. And

16:30

they said, go do it. So

16:33

I launched JetBlue Technology

16:35

Ventures in Silicon Valley. And

16:39

we invested in startups

16:41

and the entire travel

16:43

ecosystem, everything

16:45

from how to make the company

16:47

run better, so enterprise software things,

16:50

to hospitality,

16:54

and this whole area where we call it

16:56

sustainable travel. And

16:58

in the sustainable travel bucket, now,

17:00

this is 2016, we

17:03

had a thesis that

17:05

electric and then hydrogen

17:07

propulsion would fundamentally change aviation just

17:10

like jet propulsion did back in

17:12

the 50s. And so

17:14

we very actively were seeking to invest

17:17

in a mature

17:20

startup, so one that's not just an idea,

17:22

but that actually had been working on

17:24

it and had some really good viability, but was still in

17:26

the startup base. And

17:28

so that was kind of the initial

17:31

exposure to this sector. Amazing.

17:33

And so at that point, then,

17:35

Joby comes into view. And

17:38

did you meet Joban? Or did you how did you come?

17:40

How did you find Joby? And tell us about the early

17:42

days. Yeah. So

17:44

in the venture capital world, you'll come

17:47

up with a thesis and the thesis, this being the

17:51

thesis, that hydrogen wasn't there yet, so just

17:53

really electric. So electric aviation.

17:55

So then I had my team, and we

17:57

go out and this is still the

17:59

early days. So they go out and do a

18:01

full scan of the electric aviation space. And

18:04

there was some companies, there were

18:06

some companies that were doing fixed-wing

18:09

airplanes, so like small regional airplanes,

18:12

they were still on paper, pretty

18:14

PowerPoints and ideas. And

18:16

then there was this interesting little

18:18

sector called eVTOL, electric vertical takeoff

18:20

and landing. And there were

18:22

a handful of companies that were making some

18:24

really good progress in the space. And

18:28

so we, there were about 10 that

18:31

were something other than a pretty PowerPoint at

18:34

the time. Now there's a couple

18:36

hundred. But there

18:38

were 10 and we sort of one

18:40

by one decided not, went through each

18:42

of them. Some of them were

18:45

planning fully autonomous, so no pilot. That

18:48

might be the future someday, but going

18:52

to market and getting regulatory approval is a very long

18:54

journey. So we didn't want to do that. And you

18:56

know, typical investments are the seven to 10 year

18:59

range. And so you want things that

19:02

are going to get to market within that timeframe. And autonomy

19:05

would take longer than 2020. And also you

19:07

have known as a pilot, quite often the

19:09

automatic systems don't quite go under the plan,

19:11

right? And you have to step in as

19:13

a human. So you know, it will get

19:15

there. But so we, some

19:17

we did that, some were in less

19:20

regulated countries that, you know, wouldn't

19:22

like in China or wherever. We

19:25

didn't invest there. And

19:28

others just, we didn't like the technology, but we

19:30

narrowed it down. We literally had narrowed it down

19:32

to one company out of all of these 10

19:34

and we eliminated all of them. But

19:37

there was so little available to, they

19:39

were very stealth. But

19:41

it was a company very close to where it

19:43

was in Santa Cruz. And so this

19:45

is the funniest part of the story. It's

19:47

truly destiny. So I said,

19:50

okay, I told my team, we can't get a hold

19:52

of this, this joby company. We're just going to drive

19:54

there. And I said, but, you know, I have my

19:56

family vacation that I do every year up

19:58

in the mountains where we all go hiking. and everything and

20:01

we deal with a whole bunch of other families and

20:03

I said when I come back from my hiking trip then

20:06

we're gonna go do this. So I'm on vacation

20:08

and I'm hiking in the Sierras

20:11

and I run across a guy wearing a Joby t-shirt

20:14

on a trail. And I said well

20:16

that's interesting. I said you know I'm doing some

20:19

research on this company Joby do you know

20:21

about Joby and he'll have that he says yeah

20:23

I'm the founder Job Endeavor. So

20:27

I literally ran into Joby on a trail

20:29

up in Sierras completely randomly. And what's so

20:32

crazy about this is that I've been in

20:34

California for a few months. I know how

20:36

empty the Sierras are. These trails you can

20:38

be on a trail and not see a

20:41

signal on a person. Well he was bringing

20:43

his family to

20:45

the same family camp and it's part

20:47

of our school. He's a Stanford grad. It was a

20:49

camp there and

20:51

so yeah I'm sure

20:54

we would have, well we were

20:56

we were gonna drive up there the next week and

20:58

I probably would have found him then but to actually

21:00

and by the end of the week camp and by

21:02

the end of the week he's you know he's convinced

21:04

me that we should be investing in his company and

21:06

he's also convinced me that I should come be in

21:08

his COO and I said Joby

21:11

I'll have a good job. If

21:13

we invest I can come be an

21:15

advisor and the board and then we'll

21:17

see where things go. So yeah you

21:19

know fast forward we did invest co-investor

21:23

we brought in Toyota as a

21:25

co-investor because I have

21:27

in the venture community you have an ecosystem. Again

21:29

I keep coming back to this ecosystem because it's

21:31

so important. Whether you're

21:33

an individual or a company you cannot be

21:36

successful just as a solo.

21:38

So in the venture world

21:40

you like to bring in co-investors and

21:42

I had a really good friend who

21:45

was the lead of Toyota Ventures and

21:48

so I call him up and I said you

21:50

need to go check out this company and I said

21:52

you have to do it now because you only have

21:54

two weeks to close on the deal and this is

21:56

Toyota like two weeks from not even knowing about a

21:59

company to invest in. which I thought would be impossible.

22:02

But he said, OK, I'll go check it out. The next day

22:04

he says, I'm going to beat you to close. And

22:07

they did. They closed their investment in

22:09

15 days and took me 16 days. And

22:13

we invested jointly in the company. And

22:15

that was the beginning of Toyota's relationship

22:18

as well. Wow. And they're really important because they're

22:20

well, we'll get onto this. But that's going to

22:23

help in terms of manufacturing in this flight ship.

22:25

Yeah, Toyota is, again,

22:27

it's the ecosystem. We are so fortunate

22:30

to have them as a partner. But

22:32

it starts early. The investment

22:35

that they first put in versus the time, effort,

22:39

and money, and investment that they put

22:42

in now, tiny fraction. But it's the

22:44

first step. It comes back to the

22:46

first step is really important. OK,

22:48

so now, Joby, we're just going to talk a

22:50

little bit about the company and the planes. So

22:54

describe so that we are going to be able to

22:56

show some video footage so the viewers on YouTube channel

22:58

can see what we're talking about. What

23:01

is the Joby aircraft? What makes a difference?

23:04

Yeah, so a couple of things. Most

23:06

people, when they think of vehicles

23:09

that fly in the sky, they

23:11

think of two types. They're airplanes

23:14

or they're helicopters. So

23:16

the benefit of an airplane is it

23:18

has wings that provide lift.

23:20

So you don't need to use as much

23:23

power, however you

23:25

get that power, because the lift

23:27

just flying through the air holds the airplane in

23:29

the air. And

23:31

then there's helicopters. And the

23:33

helicopters don't have those wings. So they

23:35

have to use just their own power to stay in the

23:37

air. But the benefit that

23:39

they have is that they can just take off

23:42

in a small area where an airplane needs an

23:44

airport, a big long runway, and there's a lot

23:46

of infrastructure in that. So if you could imagine,

23:48

how could you combine those two to a

23:51

vehicle that can take off and land vertically,

23:54

VTOL, and

23:56

can fly like an airplane? So

23:58

a Joby airplane. Jobe

24:00

aircraft takes off like a helicopter

24:02

and then transitions so it's its

24:04

propeller units transition from vertical to

24:06

going to horizontal so in the

24:08

plane and it becomes then an

24:10

aircraft so it flies like a

24:12

plane. The extra exciting

24:15

piece about this is that it

24:18

is electric all-electric zero mission

24:20

so there are VTOL

24:22

aircraft so you know there's the Osprey

24:25

in the military that takes off there's

24:27

the Harrier, oh the military aircraft there

24:31

haven't been civilian ones so but

24:33

they're all you know turbine powered

24:36

internal combustion engine noisy

24:40

a lot of single points of failure so a

24:43

helicopter has rotors

24:45

and you know a rotor fails the

24:49

helicopter comes down very

24:52

very noisy and very hard

24:54

to maintain whereas the

24:56

Jobe aircraft on the other hand

24:58

we've got instead of having like

25:00

an airplane just two engines or

25:02

four we have we have we have six

25:05

and each of those have two motors and each

25:07

of those are tied to different batteries so you

25:09

don't have no single points of failure not in

25:11

all of those if a motor goes out no

25:13

problem the other motor in that unit works with

25:15

a battery goes out no problem and you know

25:18

everything is crossed so there's no single points of

25:20

failure which really increases the

25:22

safety and because of

25:24

the way the propellers are set up and

25:26

they turn there there's a lot of torque

25:28

and they can turn slowly about the fifths

25:31

of the speed of what other propellers

25:33

might turn it's very

25:35

quiet so what you have

25:37

is a safe sustainable and

25:39

quiet vehicle that can

25:42

take off vertically transition to a

25:44

plane and land vertically which allows

25:46

you to completely open up a

25:48

whole new mode of transportation right

25:51

well this is what's exciting now and just to

25:53

get sent to the scale obviously there's a

25:55

weight issue with batteries so what's the largest

25:57

scale you get to what's the current that

26:00

you're working on. Yeah, so batteries, you

26:03

know, we can think, you know, think of

26:05

batteries and you can think of, you know,

26:07

silicon chips and the Moore's law and all

26:09

of that, right? So batteries continue to improve.

26:11

Where we are right now and why now,

26:14

why is all this happening now versus not

26:16

ten years ago? So ten years ago the

26:18

battery density was just not

26:20

there yet. Now, so

26:23

we've got 280 watts per

26:28

kilogram in our aircraft power,

26:30

in our power and our batteries, which

26:32

is sufficient to lift an aircraft that

26:35

will take a pilot and four passengers.

26:37

Right. And at that size

26:40

it will, it's economically

26:42

viable to move forward. And so

26:45

will batteries improve? Yes. Will we be

26:47

able to care more weight? Yes. Will

26:49

the vehicle get bigger? Yes. Are there

26:51

other types of fuels? Can we do

26:53

hydrogen-powered electric? Yes. So all

26:55

of that is the future, but

26:57

the here and now, we're now

26:59

at that point where we can

27:01

effectively replace helicopters at that same

27:03

size. And say, what's

27:05

the distance that you can

27:08

cover then? So four passengers

27:10

and pilots, how long

27:12

of duration in terms of kilometers

27:14

or in terms of hours could

27:16

you fly? Yeah, so we have

27:18

actually flown our prototype aircraft. We

27:21

started firing it in 2017.

27:23

We've flown over 30,000 miles with our prototypes.

27:27

We even did a range

27:30

test, got 150 miles on one charge.

27:32

Now that's in a test environment. Our

27:35

production aircraft, we're planning about a

27:37

hundred miles, so-called 160

27:40

kilometers. And when you think about

27:42

that range and you think about

27:45

the ecosystem we want to operate in

27:47

the urban, urban areas, so you know

27:49

cities and just outside of cities, a

27:52

hundred miles comes to you. So it's like 99%

27:55

of the car traffic in an

27:57

urban area is less than 50

27:59

miles. This fits

28:01

quite well. Okay. Because I'm

28:03

imagining, like, if 100 is the maximum range,

28:05

you're going to have to hold some in

28:07

reserve. Well, that counts in reserve. That counts

28:09

in reserve. That counts in reserve. So maybe

28:11

it's usable, like, 16 miles? No,

28:14

no, no. I was saying, the range with

28:17

the reserves that we're currently planning is

28:19

100 miles. I

28:21

think a large majority, a

28:24

very large majority of our trips, are

28:26

going to be in the 10 to 20

28:28

minute range and are going to

28:30

be 25 to 50 miles. Okay.

28:34

Right, right. There will be the capability to

28:36

do the long ones, but the market really

28:38

is more those getting from one side of

28:40

a very congested city to the other side

28:43

and maybe, you know, into the next town

28:45

type of thing. So that, and

28:47

thinking about whether it's London or it's New

28:49

York or LA to go from

28:51

the south end of the city to the north end of the

28:53

city, how long that takes you in a car. Yeah,

28:56

yeah, yeah. Especially during traffic. Now,

28:59

cities though, have got a lot of people wandering

29:01

around, haven't they? And you've got buildings of different

29:03

sizes and I guess, you know, is there, how,

29:05

is the safety

29:07

regulation case for seeing lots of these in cities,

29:09

how is that going to, how are you going

29:11

to get over that challenge? Yeah,

29:14

so the first step, of course, is we

29:16

fit into the existing ecosystem. We're a pilot.

29:19

The pilot is a trained, licensed pilot. We

29:21

operate in this with the same radio,

29:23

same radio frequency through

29:26

the same helicopter routes that helicopters do.

29:29

And currently in some cities, there are

29:32

some restrictions with helicopters because

29:34

of the noise. You don't want lots and

29:36

lots and lots of them, but ours, you can't hear it. So

29:39

it would just blend into

29:41

the city. So that regulation, we

29:43

believe in some cities, again, it depends

29:45

on the city. I think it will

29:48

allow us to

29:50

have higher utilization of

29:53

existing infrastructure. So helipads,

29:55

airports, converting emergency use

29:57

helipads on top of buildings. Yes,

30:00

we can build a dedicated one in

30:02

the top of a parking garage because

30:04

not as many people drive cars. And

30:07

so fitting in with the existing ecosystem,

30:09

we have the safety

30:12

aspects because of the redundancy

30:14

we have, far exceeding helicopters because

30:17

we don't have petroleum products.

30:21

So fire is much of an issue. So

30:23

the safety aspect is better in the noise

30:27

profile. So even

30:30

going into replace helicopters and the

30:32

airspace in any city can take

30:34

several times the current

30:37

amount. So there's plenty of room. Yeah,

30:39

and is there an advantage with the

30:41

fixed wing? Well, I suppose

30:44

somebody said to me

30:46

that the problem perhaps with urban travel

30:48

is that bad weather, tall buildings, it

30:51

doesn't really matter if you're fixed wing

30:53

or not. If you hit

30:55

a building and fall out of the sky, there

30:57

might be people underneath you, right? So

31:01

initially we'll be operating what we call VFR,

31:03

which is Visual Flight Rules. So

31:06

the cloud layer, flying below the cloud

31:08

layer. Eventually our

31:10

aircraft will be capable of instrument and instruments.

31:12

So there are helipads currently

31:15

and all, not all airports,

31:17

almost all airports as well

31:19

have instrument guidance systems that

31:21

guide you to the airport regardless of whether

31:24

there's clouds or not. So we would not

31:26

be flying in buildings when we can't see

31:28

the buildings unless there was an

31:31

instrument class just like there is for

31:33

flying airplanes and clouds. Okay, great. So

31:36

thinking then about JB's kind of plan for the

31:38

future over the next 10 years, say, you're a

31:41

US based company, but you've got, you know, your

31:43

aspirations are to be global, right? So which countries

31:45

are you currently focused on? And if you could

31:47

tell us a bit more about your goals for

31:49

the next 10 years, I know you'll have goals.

31:52

Yes. So we are a

31:54

US company and we're

31:56

working with a Federal Aviation Administration, the

31:58

FAA. to certify

32:00

our aircraft and Clearly

32:03

New York and LA we have it. We

32:05

have a partnership with Delta and those are

32:07

key markets for them So those are key

32:09

markets here in the US for us. So we're we're

32:11

building our presence and ecosystem there We

32:14

have also announced other partnerships. So we

32:16

have a partnership not only with Toyota

32:19

In Japan and you probably didn't know but they

32:21

have an aviation division on the air was a hee.

32:23

Yeah So so partnering with

32:25

Toyota and their aviation division as

32:27

well as ANA So they're

32:30

an airline. So clearly Japan is a

32:32

place that we're looking at and

32:35

then also Korea

32:37

South Korea because we have a

32:39

partnership and investor an SK Telecom

32:42

So those those are countries that we're leaning

32:44

in we're leaning in now We

32:47

have other countries on our roadmap as

32:49

well. Mm-hmm. No announcements or anything today,

32:51

but we are Leaning

32:53

and we are definitely planning as a

32:56

global company and in

32:58

parallel to these countries often They'll

33:00

then take the the the certification

33:02

coming from the FAA So it's

33:04

it's some additional work in each

33:06

of the countries for the certification, but they do it

33:08

in parallel With what

33:10

we're already doing. Yeah, and then so just

33:13

thinking about the FAA then it

33:15

seems so crucial to the business

33:17

plan and to Got those certifications

33:19

through yeah, how's that all going?

33:21

Yeah, so we're we're progressing very

33:23

very well You know, we started

33:25

the the certification process About

33:27

four years ago and even

33:30

before then building the relationships and for them understanding

33:32

it's a whole new vehicle It's a whole new

33:34

category, you know when we started there

33:36

were no regulations to certify an electric

33:38

aircraft mm-hmm, and There

33:41

were no regulations to certify an aircraft that

33:43

takes off like a helicopter and flies like

33:45

a plane So you actually

33:47

before you can begin that whole certification

33:49

journey you have to help Provide

33:53

input as an industry player to the regulations

33:55

so that you have regulations to certify against

33:57

so we've been at this for a very

33:59

long time time. And

34:02

we started the actual certification process

34:04

a couple of years ago. It's

34:06

a five stage process. We're

34:09

well through the third phase and beginning the

34:11

fourth phase. So we're on things are moving

34:13

along quite nicely and we are on we

34:15

are on track in those areas. It is

34:17

a monumental effort but is the

34:19

key focus of our company right now. So we

34:21

have certifying and

34:24

manufacturing and then we have operations. So the

34:26

end journey of course is operations. But

34:29

before you can get to operations you've got to get

34:31

the airplane certified and you have to

34:34

manufacture airplanes for that. So that's the

34:36

phase that we're in now is certification

34:38

and manufacturing. And do they require a

34:40

kind of certain minimum number of miles

34:43

or hours traveled in a particular how

34:45

what's the kind of stage post towards

34:47

getting that certification. It's

34:49

a very structured process where you say

34:51

okay let's agree to the rules that

34:54

which we are going to certify. Here's the rules.

34:56

Now we've agreed on which rules apply. Now let's

35:00

tell you the next phase and let's tell you how we're

35:02

going to apply to comply with those rules. And

35:04

once they agree that yes these are rules

35:06

and here's how you comply with them then

35:08

we develop test plans for how

35:11

we're going to test against those

35:13

rules. And some of those test plans are flying

35:15

the airplane and doing certain number of cycles and

35:17

a lot of it is testing the batteries and

35:19

putting them through all the abuse and

35:22

hot weather and the cold weather and the shaking

35:24

and all of that. And

35:26

it's with the motors and putting them through thousands

35:28

and thousands of cycles and we've built

35:31

a test track for our for our

35:33

propeller unit where instead of just flying

35:35

it in the air we

35:37

can put it on a track that just goes 24 hours

35:40

and around and around and around and around. So these are some

35:42

of the tests that we do and we

35:44

also we're building our own software. So

35:46

we tested in an integrated test lap.

35:48

So we test that the software actuates

35:52

the hardware. So call it

35:54

the you know the ailerons

35:56

or the pieces of the airplane that

35:59

move. actually do it in the right

36:01

order and how does it work. And so all of those

36:03

test plans, so we do a test plan and then we

36:05

actually do the tests. And so

36:07

we're in that test plans and tests. So that's really

36:09

the focus of where we are now and

36:13

making really, really good progress. And

36:15

if you have to give us a timeline

36:17

of when that might be completed,

36:19

is there an end in sight? So

36:21

we're, I mean, what we've been talking and

36:23

leaning forward that we're targeting commercial operations by

36:26

the end of 2025. 25, okay. So

36:29

me and my operations team, right?

36:31

So now I shift from operations

36:34

of the company and supporting through people

36:36

and hiring of facilities and now beginning

36:38

to plan our commercial operations. So we

36:40

have a small but mighty team that

36:42

are working on that planning process. Right,

36:44

excellent. And then just thinking about the

36:46

manufacturing aspects, is this going to be

36:48

a US made manufacturing, part of the

36:50

manufacturing boom and relocating jobs to the

36:53

US? And what about

36:55

the supply chain as well? Yeah, so we are what

36:57

we call a vertically integrated company. And

37:00

we have, we believe the fastest way to

37:02

market is to build as much of the

37:05

parts of the aircraft in house. Because if

37:07

you do that and you have the engineers

37:09

right next to the manufacturing, especially during the

37:11

phase that we are now in prototyping, they'll

37:13

engineer and design something on the computer and

37:15

then it goes into the manufacturing, they build

37:18

it and they're like, hmm, let's make this

37:20

little tweak. They're literally sitting next to each

37:22

other. So the manufacturing person will go to

37:24

the engineer and say, make this look. So

37:26

this process works really well. As

37:29

we're going through certification, our first aircraft that

37:31

will be certified and will

37:34

come off of our production line in California,

37:36

this is our pilot production line that'll

37:39

be a couple dozen aircraft

37:41

a year perhaps. But we've already

37:43

announced where our scale up facility will be, which

37:45

will be in Ohio and

37:49

Dayton, Ohio, which was the very

37:51

first aviation manufacturing plant in the

37:53

world from the Wright brothers. Wow. It

37:56

was in Dayton, Ohio. So we are, you know, you know. Yeah,

37:58

thank you. Yes,

38:00

we are. We are. And

38:03

so we, and again, we have

38:05

all of our parts. That said, there

38:08

are a few things that, you know,

38:10

for example, are avionics, we partnership

38:13

with Garmin, we don't reinvent certain

38:15

things. And we do,

38:18

are looking at various places where

38:20

we can with at Jobe, reduce

38:23

some of the cost of manufacturing as well.

38:25

But it's all within the Jobe family. So

38:27

the nice thing is, you know, we have

38:29

a production airplane then and it's completed, you

38:32

can go through the entire history of the

38:35

airplane all the way to

38:37

the block of titanium or

38:39

for that we are going

38:42

to use subtractive

38:44

manufacturing to get down or the spec

38:46

of titanium dust if we're creating additive

38:48

manufacturing and building something to the batch

38:51

of carbon fibers that was used all

38:54

the way back to the very beginning of

38:56

these that makes it the vehicle

38:59

end to end very well known. Right. And

39:01

again, that leads to that safety and

39:03

the speed to market. Yeah. And

39:05

but I guess the downside at the moment is that

39:07

each one is kind of handmade,

39:09

that beautiful. Actually, we're transitioning

39:12

to a lot of quite

39:14

a bit of automation. We

39:16

have several AFP machines, so

39:18

automated fiber placement machines. And

39:21

those machines help us lay up like

39:23

a wing spar, which is a big

39:26

long thing. And it's automated and it

39:28

just keeps laying it up and then

39:30

exact that way, every single one of

39:32

them are exactly the same. Okay. So

39:34

there is there's some automation that's involved.

39:36

But there is quite a bit of

39:38

hand work, which is not

39:41

unlike some of the large

39:43

airlines as well. Yeah. There's a lot of

39:45

hand work built in a Boeing aircraft or

39:47

an Airbus or Sikorsky helicopter or whatever it

39:49

may be. We are moving

39:52

towards as much automation as we can. Yeah.

39:55

So, but then thinking about

39:57

the big picture, you

40:00

spoke at the beginning about wanting to make an impact on the

40:02

world. And this is

40:04

like a way of us helping address

40:06

the emissions, like not just the traditional

40:08

pollutants that come from aviation, there's noise

40:11

pollution and then there's greenhouse gas pollution.

40:13

So being electric, you know, and if

40:15

the electric's clean, then you're helping address

40:18

a lot of that. But

40:20

how much of the problem do you think

40:22

Joby can solve? Like, is the

40:24

scale of it there can really eat

40:26

into a fossil fuel addiction? How

40:29

big could you get? Yeah, so I think there's

40:31

a near term and a long

40:33

term answer to that question. So in the

40:36

near term, clearly our vehicles,

40:38

which are four passengers and a

40:40

pilot, they're maybe supplementing

40:42

the helicopter industry and maybe reducing

40:44

the helicopters. But if you think

40:46

about helicopters impact

40:49

on the environment, there's

40:51

they use the same petroleum gas and everything else

40:53

that a you know, jet A that an airline

40:56

does, but the scale isn't that big yet. So

41:00

it's a it's a step in the

41:02

right direction to change people's consciousness, that

41:04

there is an alternative besides just

41:07

using sustainable aviation fuels, for example, that's

41:09

kind of a move that's happening in the

41:12

airline industry. That doesn't solve some of the

41:14

other issues, like the contrails,

41:16

which are, which is water vapor

41:18

and such that that is actually

41:20

more of a greenhouse gas, greenhouse effect,

41:23

than just the emissions fee. So

41:26

we think longer term. So one

41:29

of the areas that we're leaning in

41:31

quite a bit, and we have a

41:33

subsidiary, it's well known is in the

41:36

hydrogen space liquid hydrogen. So H2

41:38

fly is a company, subsidiary

41:41

of Joby in Germany. And

41:43

they just flew their first

41:46

human piloted aircraft

41:49

powered by liquid hydrogen. Recently,

41:52

it was last year. And so

41:54

when you think about the and

41:57

that aircraft, they estimate could could stay

41:59

at the the air for hours, just

42:02

in the amount of hydrogen

42:04

and how efficient it is.

42:06

So it's hydrogen powering electric

42:08

motors. So you can

42:10

imagine, so we're perfecting the electric

42:12

side of it, and imagine then

42:14

if you could replace a lot

42:17

of the batteries, getting it in, but then more

42:19

hydrogen fuel cell powered by liquid hydrogen, of

42:21

how that can transform. And then the

42:24

airplanes could fly longer, higher, be bigger,

42:26

etc. So the journey is a long

42:29

one. The

42:33

world is focusing on 2030, that's right around the corner. So

42:38

will we have large transport aircraft transport, but

42:40

then no. But as

42:43

time goes on, maybe 2050, but even

42:45

getting the industry in the

42:47

ecosystem to understand different

42:50

types of aviation. So as I mentioned,

42:52

when we started, there were

42:54

no regulations to certify an electric

42:57

aircraft. So you're full of nuclear.

43:00

And there currently are no regulations for hydrogen. So

43:04

we have to make a step on

43:06

that journey. Just like when I was a little kid and I

43:08

came home, I said, mom, I want to be

43:10

Olympian. Most moms would

43:13

say that's impossible. My mom said, so how are you going

43:15

to do it? And so we're

43:17

building that, it's the same path. We

43:19

have that North Star, transform aviation, sustainable

43:21

aviation, and we're on the beginning of

43:23

that journey. And

43:26

I mean, going back to electricity, fans

43:28

of this podcast will know, and Michael

43:30

Liebrech is a very well-known commentator on

43:32

hydrogen as being a necessary

43:36

element of the transition, but quite limited

43:38

in terms of its thermodynamics rate. The

43:40

electrons before they converted

43:42

to hydrogen display small fossil

43:44

that's just more efficient. So

43:46

thinking about electricity is

43:49

one of the things that you're hoping

43:51

on this plan, is that just the

43:54

sheer kind of deployment of this technology

43:56

will see a cost curve and then

43:58

maybe even an efficiency curve that means

44:00

electricity. electricity will be manufactured, they'll be

44:03

quick to recycle through and you'll get

44:05

kind of increase in efficiency

44:07

and cost reduction. Yeah, I think that,

44:10

yes, you're right because if we

44:12

think about, it's

44:14

great if you have a zero emission

44:16

vehicle but if the electricity comes from

44:19

dirty power then what really have you done? I

44:22

mean this building that we're in right now is solar powered,

44:24

for example. So Joby's very much

44:26

around tapping into renewable energy.

44:28

So while that isn't a

44:30

sector that we're leaning ourselves into, I mean

44:32

there's a limit to vertical integration, we

44:35

are forcing for the issue of where

44:37

we locate our vertical ports, where we

44:39

go into the communities, different

44:42

parts of the world don't

44:44

have a robust electrical grid. And

44:46

so these are building

44:49

that ecosystem to

44:51

realize that it's

44:53

not just aviation that needs to be transforming. You

44:56

first have to get the grid ready and then

44:58

you can kind of transition and that

45:00

involves wind power, that solar power, other

45:03

elements too to help get the grid. And

45:07

you mentioned there about your viewport, so

45:09

just thinking about what are the potential

45:13

constraints on your growth, getting new

45:16

sites capable of taking these vehicles, that

45:18

must be a key part of it.

45:20

Or are there existing helipads that you

45:22

can just... Yeah, so there's really a

45:25

mixture of several approaches. So

45:28

our aircraft can land at regular helipads.

45:30

So wherever there's helipads. And

45:33

there are a lot of helipads

45:35

in cities, whether it's Tokyo or LA

45:37

or New York or wherever, that

45:40

if a building is higher than say 40 stories

45:43

or something, and every country

45:45

has a different level as to wherever that is, you

45:47

have to put an emergency helipad on the top of

45:49

the building. But

45:51

these are simply the builders said, well, those are

45:54

the rules, I'm going to put a helipad up.

45:56

No helicopter ever lands there. But it is there and

45:58

it is ready. And

46:01

so for us we can think

46:03

about well, why haven't they been

46:05

used? Well, because helicopters are noisy

46:08

because there's you know, there's jet-A

46:10

fuel all of these things Hmm.

46:13

Maybe we can use a couple of buildings

46:15

to show the use case of converting converting

46:17

them to a Verteport and

46:19

a verteport it's it's quiet.

46:21

So these are all aircraft that are electric

46:23

powered And it's electric instead

46:26

of Petroleum-based fuel

46:28

so that changes the fryer

46:30

profile and etc. So that's

46:32

one Another piece

46:34

would be taking an existing structure

46:37

whether it's a parking lot or

46:39

a parking garage and

46:42

converting that and

46:44

you know in the end of the day

46:46

if you think about there's places you can imagine a

46:49

helipad out in the field and it's just

46:52

a piece of concrete and That's

46:55

pretty much what we need is piece of concrete

46:57

with electric Connections to it.

46:59

So so we can do, you know,

47:01

some pretty low-cost opportunities there And

47:04

then the last piece would

47:07

be putting in verteports at

47:09

airports and depending on the

47:11

airport Whether it's a

47:13

Heathrow or it's a JFK or

47:15

Los Angeles There's

47:18

a whole process in

47:20

doing that and so yes the aircraft

47:22

could land on the runway But

47:25

that isn't a few efficient use of the

47:27

runway And it's very

47:29

very busy space. Yeah, yeah, but you could presumably

47:31

land at night, right because yes Yeah, our aircraft

47:34

is sort of what we feel if I'd land

47:36

at night. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Right? Well, listen, I

47:38

think we should return to you then as a

47:40

leader and ask you what is about the sort

47:43

of your past In

47:46

all the experiences you've had like other transferable

47:48

skills. We talked about them at the start,

47:50

right? Yeah, so sort of break down big

47:52

challenges has had tell us, you know a

47:54

little bit about how you your day-to-day You

47:56

see that showing up in your role in

47:58

Jobe. Yeah, so, you know I

48:00

think that in order to have a

48:04

big vision like transforming aviation

48:07

to happen, you

48:09

have to break that down into a lot of

48:11

different pieces, and all those pieces need to work

48:13

together to get to that end. That's

48:17

one of the challenges in companies, is you end up with

48:20

the maintenance team over here, and the

48:22

pilots over here, and the vertical

48:25

people over here, but they all have to

48:27

work together. So, building

48:29

that, helping to establish that long-term

48:32

vision, so the company says, operating,

48:35

targeting commercial operations in 25. Okay,

48:37

so we're in the first

48:39

part of 24. We got

48:41

two years. All right, team. We're all

48:44

going to work together here, and work through how we're

48:46

going to work that. So

48:48

I'm good at pulling all those

48:50

pieces together, and

48:52

I have a huge

48:55

passion for talent. Talent, building

48:57

a great team, because

48:59

you cannot do things as an individual, especially

49:02

as you move up to the organization. You need

49:04

to build and inspire a

49:08

team, and so I have an awesome team

49:11

that is working all of these challenges. And

49:14

I always say my job as a leader is to find

49:16

a great team, and

49:18

then empower them, and remove roadblocks for them,

49:20

help them get the budget they need, help

49:23

them get prioritization, help

49:25

them find things that are over this side of the

49:27

organization they didn't hear, and let

49:29

them run, and let them go. And so I

49:32

do that a lot, and I think that's

49:36

helping us move quickly towards the go-to-market,

49:38

because the go-to-market in, say,

49:40

Japan is going

49:42

to be different than the go-to-market in New York. But

49:45

there's going to be some things that are the

49:47

same, so why reinvent the wheel on those things?

49:50

So maybe 60% to 80% of it is,

49:52

I mean, it's the same old thing, right?

49:54

You thought the same. Regulation's pretty

49:57

much the same, not exactly. So

49:59

as you start thinking... about that like how

50:01

are the manuals that you write? Everything's

50:03

proceduralized in aviation. You should be

50:05

able to take you and fly the airplane

50:07

and you'll fly it exactly the way as

50:10

I fly the airplane because you

50:12

were taught the same rules that I was taught

50:14

and we follow the same procedure. So those procedures.

50:16

So how do we standardize those across markets? But

50:18

then we have to tweak them because certain things

50:20

in Japan are different than New York. So thinking

50:23

through all of that and aligning as

50:25

we go to market is something that

50:28

I'm very passionate and good at. The

50:30

other thing and I think this is something for people in

50:33

their career, earlier part of

50:36

their careers and something that I really benefited from

50:38

and it was a mentor of mine said this

50:40

as you know I was ambitious and I wanted

50:42

to grow and promote and all this kind of

50:44

stuff and he says you need to be a

50:46

T person. What's a T person?

50:49

And he said you need to really build a

50:52

depth of skill in a certain area that is

50:54

transferable. So if you just become

50:56

a great subject matter expert in being

50:59

a pilot, there's

51:01

not a lot of transferable skills in that. I

51:03

mean you can be a good pilot. Yeah there's

51:05

decision making whatever but good pilots are good pilots

51:07

and there usually don't. And so I

51:09

started taking on assignments and

51:11

I found that things that I like

51:14

to do and that I was good

51:16

at that was transferable was strategy

51:19

planning and projects. And so that type

51:21

of thing, so setting a vision, planning

51:24

for it and making the projects to

51:26

get there. Like execution, that's what I

51:28

do. That's what I'm good at. And

51:30

so when I was at JetBlue I moved across

51:32

a whole bunch of different departments and

51:34

I guess I would

51:37

promote here or there but what was

51:39

really important is building breadth. Because

51:41

if you take what your skills are

51:43

in one department and then you move to the

51:46

next one and you adapt and you learn and

51:48

you go to the next one, the next one

51:50

as you move up in an organization you have

51:52

a breadth of knowledge that you wouldn't have if

51:54

you had just started as someone,

51:57

an analyst, a

51:59

senior analyst. manager and a director and a VP

52:01

and get stuck.

52:03

So I always encourage people,

52:05

your next career step, first identify

52:07

your superpowers, identify what you're really good at

52:10

and what is transferable and start thinking

52:12

about adjacencies and move your career laterally

52:15

for a while and that will help

52:17

you grow. Okay and

52:19

then so thinking about Bonnie Simme

52:22

and you're clearly a woman

52:24

who loves a bit of adventure and

52:26

is fearless really, what's still on

52:28

your list? Have

52:30

you flown a JOB aircraft yet? So I've

52:33

flown in the simulator many, many times. Right.

52:35

But as I mentioned, our aircraft is currently in the

52:38

testing phase, right? So it's the flight test pilots. We

52:40

have amazing flight test

52:42

pilots. You know,

52:44

the initial, the lead pilot for

52:47

the F-35 aircraft for example, which is

52:49

also a vertical takeoff

52:51

landing aircraft. We've

52:53

just got amazing test pilots. So I'll let

52:55

them do their job. When the aircraft is

52:57

certified, I'm gonna be right in there flying

53:00

it. But in the meantime, I fly the simulator lab.

53:02

Are you flying it, so is that like, where

53:04

are you getting your adrenaline from and it

53:06

takes it? Yeah, so I do, I mean,

53:08

I'm still a pilot. I own my own

53:10

airplane and JOBY actually has, we

53:13

operate a small, we are certified as

53:15

an air carrier. So we have a small

53:17

aircraft that we use that we can use

53:20

for charters or whatever. And so I'm the

53:22

director of operations for that and I fly

53:24

that airplane. And so

53:26

that's where I, you know, scratch the itch. But I've

53:28

been flying airplanes for 30, 35 years. So

53:33

it's ingrained in me. Yeah,

53:35

yeah, amazing. Well, thank you

53:37

so much. I mean, those were, you covered

53:39

all my questions. It's been such a pleasure

53:42

getting to know you. And we're,

53:44

well, I'm gonna be watching with great interest for those

53:47

milestones, those stats along the way you get

53:49

to your goal. And I'm pretty certain you're

53:51

gonna get there from past history would tell

53:53

me that, you know, you'll get there. Well,

53:55

thank you. Thank you so much. So

53:58

that was Bonnie Simme of. Jobe Aviation. Getting

54:01

a completely new aircraft developed, manufactured

54:03

and into our skies is exactly

54:05

the kind of challenge Bonnie thrives

54:07

on. You can see why founder Jo-Ben

54:10

has placed his faith in her, and

54:12

as she says their meeting was pure destiny. There

54:15

are many incremental steps Jobe needs to

54:17

get through and since we've recorded this

54:19

interview they've announced that the FAA has

54:21

now certified their propulsion system. Just

54:23

a couple more steps remain before Bonnie can

54:25

in her own words, fly the beautiful bird. As

54:29

usual we'll put links in the show notes and

54:31

if you want to see video footage of the

54:33

aircraft please look up Cleaning Up with Michael

54:36

Liebrech on YouTube. Thanks to

54:38

Oliver, Colin and Eric at Jobe for helping

54:40

set the interview up and for recording it

54:42

so professionally. And to Eliza

54:44

Tucson for her research help. And thanks to

54:46

you for listening. That was Cleaning

54:49

Up. If you've enjoyed

54:51

today's conversation please remember to like,

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